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eBay Australia Delays PayPal Change Indefinitely

Posted by Soulskill on from the angry-watchdogs dept.

Daehenoc points out news that eBay Australia has postponed their ban on all forms of payment other than PayPal. The ban had already been delayed once, but eBay Australia has now decided to simply wait for the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission to determine whether or not the move is acceptable. We discussed the beginnings of this story back in April.

56 comments

  1. Buy a ACCC Ruling by Merls+the+Sneaky · · Score: 5, Funny

    Bid $10 000

    Buy it now $50 000

  2. Why? by Dan541 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Is this something to do with Google.

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    1. Re:Why? by Mike89 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is this something to do with Google.

      No, it's something to do with the ACCC trying to stop Australians getting ripped off. I'm glad someone finally stood up to Paypal and their bullshit.

    2. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BUT if you goto ebay.com.au home page in the normal way a person does {who is looking to buy something) select "BUY" tab on home page then click on any item listed to show your item's description page .then on this item page scroll down to PAYMENT OPTIONS .look to the lower right just below the last payment option listed there is a link " Learn about payment methods" select this link and please read the whole page and notice the part that says "For larger items, some sellers offer the option of paying for the item when it is picked up in person. You can also have items delivered to your nearest post office. Australia Post will take delivery of your payment and forward the seller the payment by money order. Sellers offering pay on pick up must do so in conjunction with PayPal."
      looks like ebay is ignoring ACCC notice

  3. The ACCC is going to put on a show by dbIII · · Score: 0

    The ACCC is under pressure due to their inability to do anything about fuel price fixing and a cardboard box cartel. They will probably use ebay + paypal as a risk free and high profile excuse to justify their existance. Expect legal action and Palpal execs suddenly realising that laws were drawn up after previous failures especially to put people like them in an actual jail if they fail to comply.

    1. Re:The ACCC is going to put on a show by Aereus · · Score: 4, Funny

      Cardboard box cartel? I've now heard it all... Crazy Aussies ;)

    2. Re:The ACCC is going to put on a show by timmarhy · · Score: 5, Informative
      err the cardboard box cartel thing resulted in a WIN for the ACCC and the biggest ever corperate fine handed out in australian history. pick another example. fuel prices are high due to factors well outside of the ACCC's ability to regulate - servo operators already operate on a razor thin margin of a few cents per litre, the real driving force is increased international demand and overseas oil cartels. so again, please try a different example.

      ACCC action has nothing to do with ebay stopping the trial, it's more likely the very public backlash they are feeling.

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    3. Re:The ACCC is going to put on a show by name*censored* · · Score: 5, Funny

      Don't laugh, my mother was roughed up by cardboard box goons only last week! The scariest part was when they used the double corrugated bats - she's lucky to still be alive..

      --
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    4. Re:The ACCC is going to put on a show by dbIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The detail with the cartel is the ACCC can take no personal action against the perpetrator but they would like to so it as not seen as being a complete success. Rules are being changed so that they can do so in the future.

    5. Re:The ACCC is going to put on a show by mattjb0010 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Cardboard box cartel?

      Yep!

      Crazy Aussies ;)

      That we are.

    6. Re:The ACCC is going to put on a show by fabs64 · · Score: 2, Informative

      One of the perpetrators is currently facing criminal charges for lying to the investigation.

      But I take your point, pricks should have been sent to jail for the crime not for the technicality they committed while in the process.

    7. Re:The ACCC is going to put on a show by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      How is it every single petrol station, no matter which company they claim to be, all have identical prices? And all of their prices rise and fall at the exact same days?

      How can anyone hear these facts and still reject the fact that there is price fixing going on.

    8. Re:The ACCC is going to put on a show by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      Because all petrol stations get their petrol from about 3 or 4 different sources in Australia, all of which come through the exact same supply channels, all controlled by Big Oil. The price fixing happens at a far higher level than at the petrol station. Some smaller petrol stations that try to buck the trend (buying petrol on cheap days and selling it lower priced on high days) find themselves quickly unable to buy petrol from Big Oil.

      --
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    9. Re:The ACCC is going to put on a show by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      Interesting. I wonder if that's illegal (forcing distributors of my product to sell it for a particular price)?

      Also I just realise I replied to timmarhy so I wasted my breath.

    10. Re:The ACCC is going to put on a show by quenda · · Score: 2, Informative

      How is it every single petrol station, no matter which company they claim to be, all have identical prices?

      Where is that? Maybe they copy each other.
      Here in WA its certainly not true. That is prevented by the fuelwatch scheme:

      http://www.fuelwatch.wa.gov.au/

    11. Re:The ACCC is going to put on a show by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      Sydney. Not only are the prices identical, but they go up every Wednesday and then go back down on Monday. Glad to see some government has stepped in to do something about it. If only mine would :(

    12. Re:The ACCC is going to put on a show by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Sydney. Not only are the prices identical, but they go up every Wednesday and then go back down on Monday. Glad to see some government has stepped in to do something about it. If only mine would :(

      Well, in a highly-competitive market, price changes from one merchant follow another. Take an example from Vancouver BC - the drivers here are literally stupid enough to drive across Metro Vancouver (GVRD) to save a penny per litre. As a result, a station may decide to lower their price a bit, and if they do it enough, a lineup will form down the street for a couple of blocks. (Yes, it's stupid since you're more likely to waste more gas than the amount you save waiting at the station, or driving across the many cities).

      So if the station across the street lowers their price (hurting their own profit - they may briefly sell below cost), the other stations often quickly follow suit. Then when one station is hurting enough and raise prices, the other stations notice, and judge to see whether or not they can raise prices as well (remember - profit motive - the higher the price, the higher the profit for the station). Thus prices tend to march upwards as well.

      It works for gas really well compared to other stores because with gas, effectively, every station is equivalent. There aren't many intangibles (return policies, customer service, checkout times, etc) that differentiate one station from another (only one - location, but that's nullified if people are willing to drive to you).

      Effectively, you could replace all the stations around town with generic ones, and no one will know the difference - the only real differentiator is price, and all the competitors ensure that no one station can maintain a price advantage, or if they can, stop losses and increase profits as soon as possible. Station profits are around a penny or two per litre.

      A few years ago here, Arco opened up and had the guaranteed cheapest price (for the first few years, anyhow). Lines would extend for blocks (always easy to find an Arco station - just look for the lines). Then the price differential became slimmer and slimmer, and Arco withdrew in the end. Business was brisk, but profit from the volume wasn't.

      It's a somewhat wierd phenomenon - when I go to the US, all the stations seem to have different prices within a few blocks of each other - up to abou 20 cents or so per gallon. Not so back home - they're practically all identical.

  4. Re:First comment! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It's a good idea to check that AC box when doing that so you don't get the karma hit from trolling.

  5. Use Google Checkout instead by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Although officially eBay does not allow Google Checkout, you can simply put that you "accept credit cards" with some credit card logos on your auction and then send people an invoice when they win.

    Unfortunately a lot of people assume that everyone on eBay takes PayPal and are shocked to discover that you don't, but PayPal is such a terrible system for both buyers and sellers I don't use it any more.

    In the UK PayPal make it impossible to deal with them. Any dispute always comes down to who can get a "police report" (crime incident report) which is impossible to obtain because the transaction is covered by civil law. In the event you can lie you way into getting one from the police, you automatically win - and if they refuse you automatically loose. If you are a buyer you can't ask your credit card company for help either because they only cover the transaction you make with PayPal, not the transaction made with the seller.

    Worst of all is the customer "service" which is split into two groups. The first group are useless time wasters whose job is to make you go away. If you email them you always get a standard copy-paste response, which is usually not even related to your question. Basically it seems like they deliberately avoid the question. If you call them they know nothing, can't do anything and can't help. The second group will never ever talk to you, but is responsible for making all decisions and controls everything. These are the people you need to deal with, but they are impossible to reach.

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    1. Re:Use Google Checkout instead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Unfortunately a lot of people assume that everyone on eBay takes PayPal and are shocked to discover that you don't, but PayPal is such a terrible system for both buyers and sellers I don't use it any more.

      eBay in Australia actually requires that you offer Paypal in your listings. The ACCC action only stopped eBay from disallowing almost all other methods of payments.

      And Google Checkout doesn't operate in Australia yet.

    2. Re:Use Google Checkout instead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I believe that Ebay's customer service is carefully crafted to 'Not provide' service. A couple of monkeys will send you pre-drafted sickly polite emails in response to your complaints, but noone will ever do anything.

      Ebay have only one goal in mind - the more transactions the bigger their profits. They do not give a damn if the transaction is legal or not.

      I think the ACCC needs to press for more regulations requiring firms like Ebay to clean up their act. Until that happens, Ebay is 'crim heaven'

    3. Re:Use Google Checkout instead by MoonBuggy · · Score: 1

      You're no longer allowed to 'not accept PayPal' on eBay UK - it's required for almost all sales.

      Google checkout is an interesting one - it's specifically marked as not acceptable on the eBay help pages, but through a rather protracted conversation with customer services I managed to find out that sellers are allowed to use it but that it must be offered alongside PayPal and outside of eBay's checkout.

      Incidentally, it is normally possible to get something of an answer from them if you're persistent and direct enough (any willing to put up with eight or nine pointless copy-paste responses that are so infuriating you want to throw your computer out of the window).

    4. Re:Use Google Checkout instead by Bert64 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes, i have had many bad experiences with paypal and corrupt sellers taking advantage of the flaws in their system to rip off purchasers, take a look at:
      http://www.ev4.org/wordpress/category/fastmemorymanscam/

      Then there's their "subscription" service, where a company can automatically bill you on a recurring system, there seems to be absolutely no way to see which subscriptions are active or how to cancel them. A corrupt seller can lie to you about cancelling the subscription and you have no idea if they lied or not until paypal charges you, and when you dispute it they simply ignore you.

      ebay also cancel your listing if you try to recover the cost of paypal charges in your listing, because the idea of an extra 5% or so to cover costs would encourage buyers to pay by other means.

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    5. Re:Use Google Checkout instead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You go to your payment history, go to the item that started the recurring payment and it'll let you cancel it there. Many services don't notice if you do this and you can get service for a while without paying before anyone notices.

    6. Re:Use Google Checkout instead by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      How amusing, multiple emails to paypal support were completely useless and wouldn't tell me how to do this...
      Instead, i get the answer i need from an AC on slashdot.

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  6. Re:First comment! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    I'm on to you...

  7. Perhaps Uk Ebay can delay search changes too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ebay UK are introducing "The New Search Experience" with no opt-out in the next couple of weeks. Widely hated but Ebay know best.
      Watch out world it's coming your way.

  8. Might it be... by EdIII · · Score: 5, Interesting

    That PayPal sucks?

    I'm not trolling here either. The serious problems that PayPal has are widely known. From buyers to merchants, everybody has a horror story that has prevented them from doing business in confidence. There is even a well known anti-PayPal website out there.

    A few months back when eBay started making those changes I canceled my account and told them reason why I was canceling the account. Apparently, I was not the only one. eBay used to be a place where the "common" man could go to sell his used items. Sure, it turned out to be a nifty place for people to setup shop as professional sellers, but it did not start out that way.

    Since eBay made it mandatory that you accept PayPal, regardless of what type of seller you were, it forced people to make a decision. I think there has been QUITE A LOT of those decisions made and possibly eBay is taking notice of it's user base diminishing quite rapidly, from casual sellers to professional merchants.

    Heck, I have not even visited eBay's website since that last announcement. I used to check it for prices and good deals, and now I just use Google Shopping instead.

    1. Re:Might it be... by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      Last time I had a Paypal Account, I got spammed so bad I had to change my address. No way am I going to list anything and require a paypal transaction. Luckily Trademe here in NZ has no such requirement.

    2. Re:Might it be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, it turned out to be a nifty place for people to setup shop as professional sellers, but it did not start out that way.

      I don't know what makes you think professional sellers have it easier. I would think the amateur who sells something they'd basically give away at a garage sale or throw out would have it easier -- they can post on Craigslist for free as well.

      Professional Sellers are being continually squeezed by ebay for every last penny (something an infrequent seller won't notice as much in the above circumstance when they expected little anyway) and it's rather hard to make the profit margin to stay in business. I know most people in my field left ebay since 2000 because of the rising fees - started their own web store and were content with that. Craigslist isn't great either if you need a big customer base reached by national/international searching rather than local nor does it have the same level of listing tools.

      Ebay sucks for all sides sometimes.

    3. Re:Might it be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, I did the same thing. Haven't sold anything since - paypal just isn't worth it when you only sell one or two things a year. I know, it probably means less than jack to ebay to lose someone like me, but hey... that's the beauty of the free market; you can take your business wherever you like, whenever you like.

    4. Re:Might it be... by backbyter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I also canceled my eBay and PayPal accounts in April, trying to show some solidarity with eBay users in Australia.

      I made it very clear that I was closing both accounts due to the policy that eBay Inc was pursuing. (Whether anyone read the comments is another story.)

      Over the past 10 years, I put roughly $40k through eBay, with about $20k of that through PayPal with a linked bank account. As a buyer only, I've never had a problem with either eBay or PayPal.

      Frankly, the only thing I'll miss eBay for is buying items that fill my collections. Due to its' size and scope, eBay definitely made it easy to find what I collect.

    5. Re:Might it be... by CoolGopher · · Score: 1

      I cancelled my account that I'd had for nearly 10 years (yikes!) and made sure they knew exactly why I closed it. A long time ago I got burned by PayPal and there's no way I'm ever using it again.


      I'll keep an eye on Oztion and see if that takes off well enough to be useful. Looks promising so far.

  9. Only problem I had... by tristian_was_here · · Score: 2, Informative

    Only problem I had with Paypal it took forever to transfer money from my bank account... well 2 whole weeks.

  10. Paypal = bad? by Dan541 · · Score: 1

    I find this intresting because I have never had any problem with them.

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    1. Re:Paypal = bad? by MoonBuggy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The first thing I would say is that whether they're good or whether they're bad, it is absolutely unacceptable for one company with almost 100% of the market (eBay) to force you to use a specific service.

      In my opinion PayPal's dispute resolution process is dubious at best and the customer service is nothing short of abysmal. A more concrete reason to dislike being forced to use them, however, is simply that they are considerably more expensive than other equivalent services.

    2. Re:Paypal = bad? by g0rAngA · · Score: 1
      I wrote to them a while back about the mandatory paypal offering, and basically told them the following:
      1. That i don't appreciate having anything forced on me
      2. That it is totally unacceptable for them to mandate any particular form of payment
      3. That it is still very important that they continue to offer paypal as an option, but at the discretion of buyer/seller
    3. Re:Paypal = bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      eBay has just entirely backed out in forcing us Aussies to have PayPal as the only payment method, but they maintain that PayPal still must be offered. I wish more sellers would post listings like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120278744161, but I doubt there's enough brave hearts out there.

  11. GOOD! by AbRASiON · · Score: 1

    I have major problems with paypal.
    I've never been scammed but I've heard they frequently favour the buyer over the seller (I'm a seller)

    My real issue is the god damned *expletive* fees.
    For an ONLINE system which costs them absoloutely stuff all to run (when you factor in the quantity of auctions on the system) the prices are ridiculously high.
    They could take .01% of all auctions and still make a killing, they don't though, not even close.

    I really wish I purchased ebay shares long long ago.

    1. Re:GOOD! by ejecta · · Score: 4, Informative

      I know what you mean, as a seller it's really wonderful to be charged a listing fee, a gallery picture fee, a final value fee, a 2.4% paypal fee and then another $2 to get your money out of paypal.

      Not to mention you have to also use registered post otherwise you'll automatically lose any dispute and paypal will sweep your account for price+postage regardless of the validity of the buyers dispute - A favourite of dodgy buyers here is to claim it the item was not received, if you have an express post tracking id showing it delivered paypal will still find in favour of the buyer as they only accept registered post tracking.

      Result: You lose your item and the auction value + postage fees, even though you can prove it was delivered!

      --
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    2. Re:GOOD! by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, they favour the buyer over legitimate sellers...
      But there are plenty of ways that an unscrupulous seller can use the system to his advantage.

      Did you realise you can register your paypal account in one country, while selling goods in another? When a buyer wants to return something, they have to pay the cost of international shipping plus tracking service to wherever your paypal account is registered, regardless of where you are located or where the items were shipped from.

      Assuming you live in the UK, get yourself a mailbox somewhere far away like australia and register a paypal account there, then start selling items worth under about 50GBP on ebay...
      When someone wins an item, ship him a brick or something of similar weight... Ofcourse he will complain, and file a claim with paypal... Paypal will agree to refund him, but only after he has shipped the item back to your paypal registered address and used a shipping service with online tracking. The trick is to make the cost of shipping the item back more than what they paid in the first place, that way it becomes pointless for them to do it and paypal will just close their dispute.

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    3. Re:GOOD! by koalapeck · · Score: 1

      I suppose Visa/MC/Amex should all lower their rates from the traditional 1.7%-3.5% down to 0.1% as well then. A lot of the reason behind the fee's is that it's a way to mitigate their losses on chargebacks and fraud.

      I'm not saying I support PayPal's particular practises, I choose to avoid them if at all possible, but their fee's are on par with everyone else.

  12. ACCC? More Media Pressure by ejecta · · Score: 2, Informative

    I don't really think they are that worried about the ACCC - when the ACCC released there draft ruling all they did was delay the changes a little, they were still going to be put in place in blatent defiance of the ACCC draft ruling and before the actual ruling was due to be released.

    What I don't think they bargained for was the media coverage on the front page of the Sydney Morning Herald, The Age and Telegragh which framed the issue as if eBay were scamming their own customers - the stories were quite blunt and less than flattering of eBay Australia.

    I think they cared a lot more about all the negative press and the SMH was throwing down the gauntlet pressuring the ACCC to become engaged prior to release of the final ruling - that's something no company wants. Angry media representatives do more damage that your average government pen pusher.

    --
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    1. Re:ACCC? More Media Pressure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the ACCC probably has not recognised PAYPAL has a built in INSURANCE component, and to sell or deal with insurance in Australia, there is a whole lot of red tape, AND 'tied insurance' is, I believe illegal. Thats the next hurdle, even if they got past the first one.
      Mr Ebay had better realize their automated email dispute system will not cut the mustard with insurance.

      The listing fees in Australia are High - I dont know what they are in China, but a significant proportion are domestic Chinese listers, meaning lots of local traders have given up, and gone to allclassifieds.com.au or allbids.com.au - as tradingpost no longer works well enough at dialup bandwidths.

      Ebay is destined to be replaced by Google, and rather than go on the attack, they increase prices, and upset everyone. Coupled by bad publicity, I concur with another comment - browse on ebay for a deal, then buy elsewhere.

  13. Monopoloy. by Ricardo · · Score: 1

    EBay are only attempting this because they are a monopoly and are vigorously trying to monetize that point.

    I think it is high time there was a competing auction service in Australia (although unfortunatley the nature of action sites gravitate to one).
    In New Zealand there is a site called TradeMe.co.nz and it was first and saw off eBay. The Service is much better, and there are many features which eBay (in Australia) don't bother with (better pictures) anti snipe delays etc etc.
    Unfortunately it will take a mass of people power to unseat eBay, and so ultimatley they will get away with this.
    Frankly I'm sick of it and going back to the trading post..
    'They're dreamin' - The Castle

    --
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  14. eBay spamming anti-ACCC propaganda by Hackerlish · · Score: 1

    eBay has been spamming Australian customers with PR drivel like this one they sent me: "eBay challenges yesterday's Australian Competition and Consumer Commission's (ACCC) draft notice and is disappointed that the ACCC's current view delays the opportunity to provide consumers a more secure way to shop on eBay.com.au with confidence"

    With confidence? I had a dispute where the seller did a runner. I thought PayPal protected me, but it turns out once the seller has taken the loot and run, tough luck. To try and pass this off as fighting for *us* is laughable. eBay looks out for eBay. Don't insult our intelligence by pretending this is anything other than a grab for more money.

  15. Simple solution by Mewtwo · · Score: 1

    ...the ACCC can allow them to only accept PayPal, but PayPal is not allowed to collect any fees on the transactions. If eBay is doing this for "consumer safety", I'm sure they won't mind freely offering their payment service.

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  16. Legal Tender by GrassyNoel · · Score: 0

    I don't see how eBay is going to get around letting the vendor accept cash. That phrase 'legal tender' shirley still means something in law.

    --
    Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
  17. looks like ebay is ignoring the ACCC Notice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    BUT if you goto ebay.com.au home page in the normal way a person does {who is looking to buy something) select "BUY" tab on home page then click on any item listed to show your item's description page .then on this item page scroll down to PAYMENT OPTIONS .look to the lower right just below the last payment option listed there is a link " Learn about payment methods" select this link and please read the whole page and notice the part that says "For larger items, some sellers offer the option of paying for the item when it is picked up in person. You can also have items delivered to your nearest post office. Australia Post will take delivery of your payment and forward the seller the payment by money order. Sellers offering pay on pick up must do so in conjunction with PayPal."

  18. is ebay "playing fair" with ACCC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    looks like ebay ebay.uk has a glitch(?????) that is stopping UK sellers from selling to Australia unless they use paypal. for latest UK news see this link.
    http://www.tamebay.com/2008/06/glitch-stops-selling-to-australia.html