Review of KOffice 2.0 Alpha 8 – On Windows

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Review of KOffice 2.0 Alpha 8 – On Windows

Posted by timothy on Thursday July 3, 2008 @09:28PM from the didn't-see-that-coming-did-you dept.

4WebChimps writes "As featured previously on Slashdot, the KOffice project is working towards a cross-platform, open source office suite for Linux, Windows and Mac OS X. The most recent release, KOffice 2.0 Alpha 8, achieved that goal by being the first release for all three operating systems simultaneously. Want to try KOffice on Windows? TechWorld has a review (with screenshots) of KOffice on Windows, including the installation process which is as simple as clicking a few buttons (the online installer does the rest). Hopefully it won't be long before KOffice sits alongside OpenOffice.org as a usable cross-platform open source productivity suite."

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kwrite? by thermian · 2008-07-03 21:31 · Score: 1

This is nice, but what I want to see is kwrite ported natively to windows.

--
A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
1. Re:kwrite? by entrigant · 2008-07-03 21:47 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  already done
2. Re:kwrite? by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-03 21:54 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  What do you mean native? MSOffice uses it's own toolkit, not the standard windows toolkit. KOffice is using QT, so that's non-standard too.
  Look, think about it as a positive. Lots of people are testing the same UI on different platforms so any bugs found on Linux will be fixed in Windows too. Also users can move between operating systems without having a radically different interface.
  Strategically KOffice matters to the Office File Format debate... OpenDocument (ODF) vs Microsofts OOXML.
  Healthy competition in standards is needed like it is in the browser market. KOffice uses ODF (of course it couldn't use OOXML without reverse-engineering) and by being the second most popular implementation it helps keep OpenOffice.org honest (not that there's any sign that they're not honest). When MSOffice support ODF then KOffice will be more important still -- it will help evaluate ODF compliance and interoperability.
  Microsoft Office earns them 10 billion and a part of that is coming out of your country's economy -- competition in the form of KOffice is very good indeed. It's particularly good that they're embracing Windows -- it worked for Firefox.
3. Re:kwrite? by mrbluze · 2008-07-03 22:07 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  It's particularly good that they're embracing Windows -- it worked for Firefox.
  Yep, pretty soon I'll be installing Firefox to replace my Windows installation.
  
  --
  Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
4. Re:kwrite? by SpooForBrains · 2008-07-04 01:20 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  What does he mean? He means he would like to see Kwrite ported natively to Windows.
  The word processing component of Koffice, to which I assume you think he is referring, is called "KWord".
  
  --
  "The dew has clearly fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning"
5. Re:kwrite? by Darkness404 · 2008-07-04 01:47 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Why? Emacs uses less RAM. PLUS it has a web browser built in
  
  --
  Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
6. Re:kwrite? by pbhj · 2008-07-04 02:09 · Score: 1
  
  see http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=603913&cid=24058329 below
7. Re:kwrite? by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 03:42 · Score: 0
  
  Informative?
  Informative is providing a link to the download for the application.
  Then the impeding horror when you realise that for a text editor, you would have to download the entirety of KDE4 for Windows as well. Win!
  Admittedly, there are a billion text editors for Windows, and they're all missing something. I'm sticking with context for now.
8. Re:kwrite? by thermian · 2008-07-04 03:52 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Thanks, actually I already tried this, and it's not that good, unfortunately. It lags rather a lot on my machine, and the text rendering is quite poor too.
  Not that it isn't a nice start, but that's why I specified 'native'. I want Kwrite working on windows without needing anything but windows QT.
  
  --
  A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
9. Re:kwrite? by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 06:17 · Score: 0
  
  And e-mail. You forgot e-mail!!!
  (Take that, Kwrite!)
  (That last one was a joke.)
  AC
  p.s.: isn't there an old saying along the lines of "all programs grow in complexity until they include an e-mail client", or something like that?
10. Re:kwrite? by Tweenk · 2008-07-04 11:35 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  I'll allow myself to go on a slightly off-topic rant here.
  This "cross-platform UI" thing in OO.o is ridiculous. It looks like shit, at least the GTK interface. Even the scrollbars aren't correct if you look closely, and refreshing issues make the equation editor nearly unusable. This is because their GUI abstraction layer is FUBAR.
  There are only 3 corect ways here:
  1. Same look on all platforms by using a toolkit that draws its own widgets
  2. Use a windowing toolkit like GTK or WxWidgets, and let the toolkit devs sort out the look on ach platform
  3. Write a native interface for each platform
  The OO.o team chose neither, and implemented a half-assed mixture of 1, 2 and 3. In effect they use something like their own lightweight toolkit that has modules to use some drawing primitives of each platform, but doesn't utilize whole widgets. This is very wrong. because OO.o widgets will look like native ones but behave in subtly different ways. However, it's too late to fix this as this would require massive changes and regressions.
  I just hope the KOffice team takes route 2, but that's dependent on Trolltech releasing Qt for Windows which uses native Windows widgets.
  
  --
  Those who would give up liberty to obtain working drivers, deserve neither liberty nor working drivers.
11. Re:kwrite? by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 12:42 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah, but it lacks a decent editor.
12. Re:kwrite? by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 14:44 · Score: 0
  
  How I wish Emacs had a usable web browser. Then I would not even need a desktop environment any more.
13. Re:kwrite? by ThePhilips · 2008-07-04 23:39 · Score: 1
  
  KWrite is that good not because it is KWrite on its own - it is because there is KDE4 behind it as foundation.
  Actual alpha of KDE4, btw, isn't that much bigger if compared to OpenOffice.org: KDE4 (with games!) takes about 315M while OO.o 2.3 takes 290M. Yes, KOffice + KDE4 itself + piles of KDE4 apps and libraries are only slightly larger than full install OO.o.
  I think that bloat added by KDE4 to the Windows would be just like a drop in ocean. And for the little price you are getting lots of (eventually I hope useful) extras.
  SVG Mahjong alone is enough for me to justify the occupied 315M of disk space ;)
  
  --
  All hope abandon ye who enter here.
14. Re:kwrite? by ThePhilips · 2008-07-05 00:10 · Score: 1
  
  There are only 3 corect ways here: 1. Same look on all platforms by using a toolkit that draws its own widgets 2. Use a windowing toolkit like GTK or WxWidgets, and let the toolkit devs sort out the look on ach platform 3. Write a native interface for each platform
  
  Actually, OO.o uses number 1. The main problem of course that OO.o is too old: many parts were coded by many people in different times on different platforms. That's why it looks and behaves like total junky - independent of platform you are running it on.
  But my first though was that you #1 is impossible. Because you chain yourself to update your application - eternally - to catch up with all the little UI improvement introduced with every minor OS update. It's just not practical. Or better say, it doesn't work in practice.
  
  I just hope the KOffice team takes route 2, but that's dependent on Trolltech releasing Qt for Windows which uses native Windows widgets.
  
  QT4 uses only little bit of Windows native GUI.
  Many applications do not use Windows native GUI (best examples are M$IE and M$Office) for one simple reason: it has very very limited capabilities, which are not matching modern UI requirements.
  Also, as somebody who did native Win16/Win32 using only SDK, believe me, native UI of Windows is major P.I.T.A. to program for. Add here aforementioned lacking features and you have literally 0 reasons even to consider using it. No need for better example - even M$ itself doesn't use it.
  In the times of StarOffice, goal was to make truly cross-platform UI which can run on Mac OS, Linux, Window, etc. The problem here is that you can't make it. It is impossible. That's why UI's of OO.o now is failing the same way as Java UI did many years ago. GUI has to be native to integrate with OS, for app to be conforming to interface users of OS are familiar with.
  P.S. Another example, similar to OO.o, is Opera - they also have their own toolkit very similar to Windows native controls. That's why Opera, just like OO.o, fails to integrate with OS, fails to conform to host UI standards.
  
  --
  All hope abandon ye who enter here.
15. Re:kwrite? by w000t · 2008-07-05 07:47 · Score: 1
  
  You can wish all you want, but that's not going to happen. KWrite is a KDE app, and as a such depends on KDElibs. I do agree though that you shouldn't need all of KDE to use it. I'm not sure what's the current situation on that regard but, in any case, it will probably improve with time.
16. Re:kwrite? by Tweenk · 2008-07-05 08:17 · Score: 1
  
  You don't understand my point #1. #1 means a GUI that looks completely out of whack of how the rest of the OS looks, but is the same on most platforms. Like a Swing application mith Metal style. What you refer to is a combination of 1, 2 and 3. They attempt to emulate the look of the platform, and they supply a different emulation for each platform they support, but they don't touch the platform's native widget interface. This way is doomed to eternal brokenness, and at this point I agree with you.
  Additionally, I know how Win32 coding looks like, and I don't like it as well, but this is the only way you can access native widgets.
  
  Many applications do not use Windows native GUI (best examples are M$IE and M$Office) for one simple reason: it has very very limited capabilities, which are not matching modern UI requirements.
  Maybe if you confine yourself to user32.dll. But there's also comctl32.dll. Last time I programmed Win32 it had everything: buttons, scrollbars, list views, tree views, rich text editors, tabs, dockable toolbars, smooth scrolling support, common dialogs, MDI, contextual help... It was very tedious to use, but it had LOTS of things.
  
  --
  Those who would give up liberty to obtain working drivers, deserve neither liberty nor working drivers.
17. Re:kwrite? by Slashcrap · 2008-07-05 08:53 · Score: 1
  
  Not that it isn't a nice start, but that's why I specified 'native'. I want Kwrite working on windows without needing anything but windows QT.
  You paid for your OS, so if you want this so bad you can pay for someone to do the huge amount of work involved, you freeloading cunt.
18. Re:kwrite? by A+Jew · 2008-07-05 18:35 · Score: 1
  
  KOffice2 uses option 1. It's written for the KDE4 platform, which has implementations for Mac OSX and Windows. Interestingly, however, it seems that the widgets at least use the native Windows theme, if not that they use the Windows widgets themselves (this is evident from the heap of screenshots). The Icons, however, are the Oxygen icons.
19. Re:kwrite? by turbidostato · 2008-07-08 08:48 · Score: 1
  
  "I want Kwrite working on windows without needing anything but windows QT."
  That you won't get.
  Kwrite is NOT a Qt app. It is a KDE app, so you can't get kwrite without KDE (foundation).
euch by abigsmurf · 2008-07-03 21:35 · Score: 5, Interesting

Anyone else really hate online installers? I hate downloading a 20meg program, getting ready to install and use only to find out that you've then got to wait for the real 200meg program to download.
Some people like to start a download then go off and have lunch whilst something downloads, not to come back and find out it wants you to download some more stuff.
1. Re:euch by Fallingcow · 2008-07-03 21:42 · Score: 1
  
  One more here.
  I can't think of a benefit that couldn't be replicated through another method with both less hassle for the user AND less work for the developers.
2. Re:euch by hedwards · 2008-07-03 22:03 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  An online installer shouldn't be 20mb, it should be less than 2mb and pull in just the components necessary to install the rest of the program. The exact size is going to vary from application to application.
  The point of online installers is that they are in theory at least going to be downloading just what you're installing. If a program doesn't offer any options in terms of what to install, it shouldn't offer an online installer as there isn't really any benefit to doing so.
3. Re:euch by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-03 22:06 · Score: 0
  
  Yes, as you can see from the screenshot it's downloading way too much. I understand that KDE needs that but at least provide a single file download... or something that says "I can't do feature X until you download this, download now? [YES] [no]".
  It's great that they've made it to Windows, but it needs some polish. And how about a new theme too eh? Windows doesn't look like Windows 3.11 anymore, but this default theme still does. That's an easy fix that should be included in the next version.
4. Re:euch by MrHanky · 2008-07-03 22:07 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  The benefit is that the installer will take care of dependencies, so that the user doesn't have to install a >100 MB package for each program she wants, or to install a huge package of apps if she only wants a few.
  I can't think of a reason why this shouldn't be obvious.
5. Re:euch by funfail · 2008-07-03 22:08 · Score: 1
  
  If a program doesn't offer any options in terms of what to install, it shouldn't offer an online installer as there isn't really any benefit to doing so.
  Well, it guarantees that you are installing the latest version but I don't think that it's a real benefit either.
  
  --
  Search RapidShare and MegaUpload!
6. Re:euch by Vectronic · 2008-07-03 22:22 · Score: 1
  
  Latest version, fine... but whats the 20MB's then? Is the EULA, and ReadMe all in some PDF or something, with some giant flash-based introduction nonsense while it installs... with music?
  Like hedwards said, it shouldn't be 20MB, and it shouldn't even be 2MB, a generic Online-Install for a single OS can be as small as 150KB or so and still cover most of the major languages/etc.
7. Re:euch by Ginger+Unicorn · 2008-07-03 22:27 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  it seems to be a kind of mini package manager that runs on windows, that allows you to install kde apps the same way you do on linux. so this installer thing doesnt just install koffice - it stays on your system and allows you to install and uninstall any other kde apps that become available for windows in the future.
  i think i heard that kde have a long term plan of being able to run a full KDE desktop session on top of windows - presumably this package manager is the foundation of that ultimate goal.
  
  --
  (1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
8. Re:euch by ageforce_ · 2008-07-03 22:37 · Score: 1
  
  AFAIK KDE-lib depends on many libraries. It would be a waste of bandwidth to bundle these libraries to every KDE-program. If you install Amarok and Koffice you should not need to download these libraries twice.
9. Re:euch by smittyoneeach · 2008-07-03 22:38 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  doesn't look like Windows 3.11 anymore,
  While style is not unimportant, I'm quite a bit more interested in reasonable features, stability, and keyboard navigation.
  Here's a shout out to all ma homiez that really don't require a skinnable, theme-able printing dialog!
  
  --
  Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
10. Re:euch by nutshell42 · 2008-07-03 22:44 · Score: 1
  
  At least atm the windows version is still kinda linuxy. If you look at the first screenshot in the article, it's the list of dependencies the installer's going to download. If you really want to, you can download all of them manually, put them in the packages directory and it will use them during installation. But that's a pretty crazy way of doing this.
  It should be quite easy to create an image containing KOffice and all dependencies (perhaps with a seperate image for kdelibs+Qt) that you can download and that then acts as a repository for the packages themselves.
  But imho KDE4Win won't be ready for primetime before KDE4.2 and an online installer with separate packages is superior for frequent developer/beta-tester releases.
  
  --
  Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
11. Re:euch by Vectronic · 2008-07-03 23:00 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Indeed, I was hoping they would be a little more quick with it, but I think you are right in saying "long term plan" was about right, although I imagine that if its anything like Slashdot (et al) that trying to find people to blaspheme and create Windows stuff is a problem.
  Although, im not sure where the 20MB's came from now anyways (I responded before even looking).. but after looking the installer is only 1.6MB ... which isnt too bad, seeing how many languages it supports, and the fact it may even come with 2 different compilers aswell...
12. Re:euch by Verunks · 2008-07-03 23:56 · Score: 1
  
  It's great that they've made it to Windows, but it needs some polish. And how about a new theme too eh? Windows doesn't look like Windows 3.11 anymore, but this default theme still does. That's an easy fix that should be included in the next version.
  since it's so easy why don't you do that? unfortunately there a lot of dependencies in kdelibs like dbus, soprano, strigi etc.. most of these are mandatory but there are also other optional requirement that are checked at compile time, so we can't build 10 kinds of kdelibs(or package xxx) just to disable something it's like linux distro you can't choose to install qt4 with ssl support or without it but you'll get what's available
13. Re:euch by 19061969 · 2008-07-04 00:04 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Maybe a lot of users don't know what a software dependency is?
  It's a valid point - very few people in the real world care or understand about what a shared library is even if you tell them carefully. Let's face it - being into computers is not a majority thing. Most people don't give a stuff. They really just want things to work easily for them.
  
  --
  bang goes my karma... again...
14. Re:euch by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 00:24 · Score: 0
  
  And very few of those people are reading Slashdot or installing beta versions of obscure office suite. What's your point?
15. Re:euch by scorp1us · 2008-07-04 00:38 · Score: 1
  
  The problem is not that there is an installer that takes care of the depenencies. It is that *every* *damn* *program* needs its /own/ installer.
  What we need is something akin to a torrent program, where the dependencies and actual program are transmitted to one program whose extension is registered with a universal handler. This is no different than apt or those other page management solutions.
  The distinction is that grandparent post is complaining about an exe, and I agree that he shouldn't have an exe - they come with security issues. Keeping things to a single universal installer you can trust the universal installer, it provides a consistent interface and can be registered with the system as a "safe" program. Then you're left to download only a data file which will be in a standard format. With that standard format people have a common base from which to innovate.
  
  --
  Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
16. Re:euch by Lafeek · 2008-07-04 00:43 · Score: 1
  
  How hard is it to explain?
  Let's try : "This software needs that part of software to work, and this other software needs that same part of software to work. By using this installer, you only need to download and install that part only once."
17. Re:euch by MrHanky · 2008-07-04 01:13 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  That's a perfectly valid point, but those people shouldn't pollute Slashdot with their silly complaints. Back in the days, people who self-identified as "nerds" would have endless and pointless discussions of making Linux-powered robots that could brew coffee, or configuring Emacs to do it or whatever (single-threaded coffee, urgh), but these days there's a loud majority of Slashbots who seem to think that market share is the only valid goal and hence the only valid technical goal is that idiots should be able to use it: the idiot as the epitome and endpoint of human technical endeavours.
  These people claim the superiority of "it just works" over "how does it work?", and regularly chip in with smug Apple sales pitches, technically and socially impossible suggestions such as that Gnome and KDE should merge, and that software with special dependencies should work just as software without those. The only positive way to deal with these idiots is with sarcasm. I'm sure that if we cared about their views, then we should listen to them, but we shouldn't.
18. Re:euch by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 02:43 · Score: 0
  
  There are KDE distros smaller than or slightly bigger than 200MB.
  Supporting Windows is a nightmare - no package management, terrible directory structure, no real shared libraries (in standard locations, that is). Developers have to bundle everything but the kitchen sink with their apps.
19. Re:euch by RiotingPacifist · 2008-07-04 03:48 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Here's a shout out to all ma homiez that really don't require a skinnable, theme-able printing dialog!
  But this is KDE, the print dialog will be skinnable AND themable, The only part of my setup another KDE user would recognise would be my panels.
  
  --
  IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
20. Re:euch by smittyoneeach · 2008-07-04 04:07 · Score: 1
  
  I have tons of respect for KDE: those hackers could code me into the dirt.
  All of the tweakability is kinda lost on me, though.
  
  --
  Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
21. Re:euch by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 06:07 · Score: 0
  
  it seems to be a kind of mini package manager that runs on windows, that allows you to install kde apps the same way you do on linux. so this installer thing doesnt just install koffice - it stays on your system and allows you to install and uninstall any other kde apps that become available for windows in the future.
  I just wanted to add to the thread something like this: "I don't see any need of online installers; in fact, I don't see any use of operating systems that don't have a package manager handy that performs the basic task of letting you install/uninstall any software you want and which also handles all the dependencies."
  Then, I read your comment. I think to provide a package manager for the poor Windows users is a great move by the KDE project.
22. Re:euch by Ed+Avis · 2008-07-04 06:11 · Score: 1
  
  It is that *every* *damn* *program* needs its /own/ installer.
  Yeah, welcome to Windows.
  
  --
  -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
23. Re:euch by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 06:13 · Score: 0
  
  Bravo, MrHanky! And thank you.
24. Re:euch by westlake · 2008-07-04 06:13 · Score: 0
  
  these days there's a loud majority of Slashbots who seem to think that market share is the only valid goal and hence the only valid technical goal is that idiots should be able to use it: the idiot as the epitome and endpoint of human technical endeavours. ... I'm sure that if we cared about their views, then we should listen to them, but we shouldn't.
  
  Then you learn to live with a 0.68% share of the desktop for Linux.
  The GWB is an elegant expression of an engineering aesthetic - but the fundamentally mundane reason for its existence is to move 300,000 vehicles a day quickly and efficiently across the Hudson River.
  It is engineer's job to make technology accessible. It is an engineer's job to strip away unneeded and unwanted layers of complexity. It is an engineer's job to expose complexity only to those with a compelling need to deal with it.
25. Re:euch by King+Kwame+Kilpatric · 2008-07-04 08:25 · Score: 1
  
  Windows doesn't look like Windows 3.11 anymore, but this default theme still does. That's an easy fix that should be included in the next version.
  I'm sorry but WHAT part of that looks like Windows 3.1?
26. Re:euch by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 10:01 · Score: 0
  
  They've stated before that there are certain parts of KDE that won't be ported to Windows, including the Plasma desktop. There's still a large number of apps that will be ported though.
27. Re:euch by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 10:56 · Score: 0
  
  but the final version will have this still, yes?
28. Re:euch by swillden · 2008-07-04 13:23 · Score: 1
  
  I hate downloading a 20meg program, getting ready to install and use only to find out that you've then got to wait for the real 200meg program to download.
  
  That does indeed suck, but it's offtopic, since the KDE Win installer is 1.5 MB. That's not so big these days.
  
  --
  Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
29. Re:euch by phulegart · 2008-07-04 14:54 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  I dunno exactly how hard it is to explain, but remember this... you are talking about trying to explain software dependencies to people who do not yet understand that hardware needs software to run. They can't wrap their minds around drivers. I should know. I have to try to explain things like this every day at the repair shop I work at.
  These people also think that their hard drives are the same as their ram, since both refer to the same units (MB and GB). I can't tell you how many times a customer will call and say "Hi. I need more memory. My computer is running too slowly. I have too many programs on it and I don't have any room left." Then there are those who call for support. You ask them to open their web browser, and they reply "Huh? What's a web browser?" I say, you know... Firefox, or Internet Explorer... which will usually draw up the response of "Oh. The big E on my desktop." The trouble only continues, when I ask them to put a URL in their address bar... which again prompts the reply "Huh?" At which they seem to notice for the very first time ever, the www.whatever up top.
  These are also the people who believe that the thing they get from the cable company for their internet, plugs into the MODEM on their computer. Nono, not the actual modem, but the "other" modem, you know, the one with the bigger phone plug.
  Of course, one of the staples of our business is spyware cleaning. Why? Because people do not seem to understand that when they are surfing, and that little popup comes up telling them that they are infected, and they HAVE to download and purchase AntiVirus 2008 in order to get rid of the infections. So we clean them, and arm them with tools they can use to continue to clean their systems, telling them at length how these programs work, and how they are to be used. And can you guess what happens? Several weeks or months later they bring the machines back to be cleaned again, and they not only did not even run their copies of SPybot or AdAware or Malwarebytes like they were shown how to do... (logs), but they did not even update their definition databases like they were told to do.
  And you think that "This software needs that part of software to work, and this other software needs that same part of software to work. By using this installer, you only need to download and install that part only once." is going to successfully explain software dependencies to them?
  
  --
  "I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -D. Adams
30. Re:euch by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 15:32 · Score: 0
  
  BRAVO!! A hundred points to you sir!
  Idiots of the world, stick with Apple!
31. Re:euch by setagllib · 2008-07-04 17:15 · Score: 1
  
  You don't skin and theme your panels?
  
  --
  Sam ty sig.
32. Re:euch by McKing · 2008-07-05 05:34 · Score: 1
  
  You mean like apt or yum or portage or pacman or the BSD ports system?? MS could learn a lot from the remote repositories / installers that the free software community takes for granted.
  
  --
  If only "common" sense was actually that common...
33. Re:euch by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-06 12:31 · Score: 0
  
  There's already a port of KDE to Windows. http://windows.kde.org/
34. Re:euch by Ginger+Unicorn · 2008-07-08 00:55 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah that's the thing i'm talking about - it's in alpha at the moment.
  
  --
  (1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
Why ... by RalphLeon · 2008-07-03 21:41 · Score: 4, Interesting

Why had this taken so long? KOffice is built with Qt, a robust cross-platform gui toolkit, http://trolltech.com/products/qt/.
Being a enterprise developer using Qt, the worse that I've had to deal with is some linking issues with dynamic libraries and GUI adjustments when porting to windows from linux...
Perhaps the "KDE" portion of the code is harder to port than the "Qt" portion?
1. Re:Why ... by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-03 21:47 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Because the older versions of Qt that the old KDE was built on was only free/Free on Linux. Windows Qt used to be only available with a expensive commercial license, and nobody from KDE felt like paying for the privilege of supplying free software to Windows users.
2. Re:Why ... by entrigant · 2008-07-03 21:48 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  QT was not GPL on windows until version 4
3. Re:Why ... by should_be_linear · 2008-07-03 23:32 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  This is where Java shines. In C++, you can use platform-independent frameworks, but still you need for each and every platform to setup (possibly virtual) machine with compilation build-chain, installation process, and you better test if final result really works or some library is missing. Assuming you don't use 64-bit version of each platform, which doubles maintenance/QA effort. After all this you just *hope* you don't recieve that "Your app regularly crash on my FreeBSD x.y.z !" e-mail. For big projects like KDE/KOffice obviously this is problem, hence delay of KOffice Windows version, for small development team it is *huge* problem. This is why I really love Java, I almost forgot all STL incompatibility issues and C++ compiler nuances. Its not that Java program cannot behave different on various platforms, its that I encountered it once for last 3 years, and its fixed already in Java 6.
  
  --
  839*929
4. Re:Why ... by jstaniek · 2008-07-03 23:53 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  The port was available in 2004 already, but just not maintained. The KDE 4 port is available on Windows since I compiled the stuff in September 2007.
  
  People are just not aware of that.
  
  The problem is the deployment of alpha software, we have no volunteers to even make good screenshots (the article shows GIMP on one of them!). Don't expect developers to work more than 24h a day :)
  
  Again, there is single codebase in most KDE apps (minus examples like Konsole), no "hard porting" is needed except work on dependencies that are non-Qt, e.g. less portable filter dependencies for Krita.
5. Re:Why ... by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 00:25 · Score: 1, Funny
  
  Java: Write once, debug everywhere.
6. Re:Why ... by Simon · 2008-07-04 01:12 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Why had this taken so long?
  eeerrr... because they have been busy porting it from Qt3 to Qt4.
  --
  Simon
7. Re:Why ... by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 02:11 · Score: 0
  
  What if I don't want to run your bytecode on Sun's Java implementation? Java wasn't called write once test everywhere for nothing.... (yes it's much better now but so is C++)
8. Re:Why ... by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 03:14 · Score: 0
  
  This is where Java shines.
  Hahaha. Java doesn't shine anywhere. You can't polish a turd.
9. Re:Why ... by Alex+Zepeda · 2008-07-04 06:25 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Until you run into incompatibilities between different JREs.
  
  --
  The revolution will be mocked
10. Re:Why ... by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 10:09 · Score: 0
  
  Java is only portable until you start trying to integrate into the OS. SWT (used in Eclipse and Azureus) for example is very platform specific since it uses GTK on Linux and Windows stuff on Windows. I'm sure it's still a lot easier than C++ though.
  KDE especially has a number of platform-specific bits like playing audio/video (Phonon has a DirectSound plugin now), printing, embedding app windows (e.g. pdf reader inside a web browser), and who knows what else.
11. Re:Why ... by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 14:51 · Score: 0
  
  Unfortunately, Java shines very ... very ... slowly.
12. Re:Why ... by oistrakh · 2008-07-04 19:48 · Score: 1
  
  This was modded "informative"??? This is clearly a troll! Apparently someone has never tried to move a web app from Tomcat onto Weblogic or JBoss or OC4J. Ever heard of ClassLoader issues? Log4j ring a bell??
  Or if you want to leave this strictly as a Desktop Environment to Desktop Environment comparison, how about the fact that you could never write something like KDE on Java at all, because you'd fail the minute you had to interact at a low-level with hardware? Or if you want to narrow the debate even more to try and claim Java superiority, how about we just talk about all of those Java-based Office suites that are taking over the world? What, they take up too much RAM, run too slow, don't integrate well with the native GUI, and have odd rendering problems? OK, so how exactly is Java relevant to this discussion again?
  And lastly, I want to thank Sun for giving us the ability to write easy to read code like this:
  public class MyClass< T super HashSet< ? extends MyClass< T >, Map< String, String > > > {}
  Yes, so much better than C++. After fifteen years, Java now has most of the problems of C++ and few of the benefits. Congratulations.
13. Re:Why ... by A+Jew · 2008-07-05 18:51 · Score: 1
  
  KOffice has only one codebase, so you would use the exact same version regardless of OS. Therefor it must mean that the bulk of the work is on porting the KDE4 platform.
  I fail to see why the licensing of Qt3 has any bearing on KOffice2, since KOffice2 uses Qt4.
14. Re:Why ... by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-09 12:05 · Score: 0
  
  "KOffice is built with Qt"
  Yes, but KOffice is not built on Qt. KOffice is built on KDE which is in turn built on Qt.
  "Perhaps the "KDE" portion of the code is harder to port than the "Qt" portion?"
  KDE was designed to run on sane POSIX unix-like systems... quite afar from Microsoft's conception for an OS.
Review? Really? by knutert · 2008-07-03 21:45 · Score: 5, Informative

Calling it a review is stretching it...in short, he installed it and noticed that it ran slow, which is probably because it is alpha software.
1. Re:Review? Really? by tehcyder · 2008-07-04 02:49 · Score: 1
  
  TFS wasn't much shorter than TFA. Impressive.
  
  --
  To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
2. Re:Review? Really? by kripkenstein · 2008-07-04 07:11 · Score: 1
  
  Calling it a review is stretching it...in short, he installed it and noticed that it ran slow, which is probably because it is alpha software.
  Actually, alpha software is frequently buggy and prone to crashing, but not necessarily slow. Sometimes its faster than the final, actually (and sometimes not).
  Which makes me concerned about what performance this is going to have. If it isn't much faster than OpenOffice, there is really not much chance for it to see wide adoption.
Excellent news by squoozer · 2008-07-03 21:47 · Score: 2, Interesting

While this is certainly great news for KDE realistically we are going to be able to count the number of Windows users on one hand. There will be plenty of people (me included) that will down load it to see how good it is but then never use it again because it's incompatable with other office software*. While I know it can read ODF and .doc etc it doesn't do it well enough that it's a drop in replacement for MS Office or even Open Office.
Personally I really hope that they port Kontact soon. It's streets ahead of Thunderbird and a half way decent competitor to Outlook.
* any broken formatting when opening a non-native file format means it's incompatible as far as I'm concerned.

--
I used to have a better sig but it broke.
1. Re:Excellent news by tomtomtom777 · 2008-07-03 21:54 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  My personal favorite is Krita, which IMHO is surpasses GIMP in many ways. Full CMYK support, much more friendly user interface and better intergration with the Office suite.
2. Re:Excellent news by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-03 22:26 · Score: 0, Offtopic
  
  My personal favorite is Krita, which IMHO is surpasses GIMP in many ways. Full CMYK support, much more friendly user interface and better intergration with the Office suite.
  Some mod made this down as Offtopic. I mean "-1, boring" maybe but offtopic? Not in the slightest.
3. Re:Excellent news by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-03 22:30 · Score: 1, Interesting
  
  I can only add my voice of support.
  I hate these hey-find-me-on-your-desktop GIMP windows, and Krita is already as powerful as GIMP (we can only look for some scripting engine).
4. Re:Excellent news by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-03 23:04 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  There will be plenty of people (me included) that will down load it to see how good it is but then never use it again because it's incompatable with other office software*.
  * any broken formatting when opening a non-native file format means it's incompatible as far as I'm concerned.
  KOffice uses ODF as its native format, and MSOffice can't currently handle that.
  Since ODF is the native format for a large number of Office suites:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument_software
  While MS Office' own format is native for only 1 Offic suite, then clearly MS Office is the suite you should drop by your own criteria.
5. Re:Excellent news by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 01:05 · Score: 0
  
  "There will be plenty of people (me included) that will down load it to see how good it is but then never use it again because it's incompatable with other office software*."
  I'm more concerned that I'll download it then decide that it looks like a turd on a pig wearing lipstick. I'm sorry, but opensource software just looks so fucking awful. I'll stick to MS Office thanks.
6. Re:Excellent news by WNight · 2008-07-04 05:13 · Score: 1
  
  Eh, whatever. You're probably one of those people who runs the pointer back and forth over the dock to watch the icons throb.
  Who "looks" at software? It's got spaces, you click there and type things.
  Seriously, looks!? Are you a teenage girl?
  Can you imagine if people who actually did things (you know, useful things, that people would miss if they stopped being done) were whiny about the look of their tools?
  "I can't use this table saw, it's scratched! And this drill, it's green! Hello!? My pants are blue, it'll clash!"
  "I can't code this web stuff, my desktop theme is too ugly. I'm going to go read Slashdot."
7. Re:Excellent news by kersten78 · 2008-07-04 17:23 · Score: 1
  
  In many ways, Kontact is a great PIM. In my experience it seems faster and more polished than Evolution or Thunderbird/Sunbird. Unfortunately, its IMAP support is a bit clunky. According to the one of the devs, until KMail has been moved to the Akonadi back end it is impossible to search across multiple IMAP folders (see http://www.nabble.com/Is-it-possible-to-search-multiple-IMAP-folders-in-a-single-search--td16188937.html ). With 5+ IMAP accounts, it's extremely convenient (necessary?) to define a search folder, call it "Inbox", that polls all IMAP Inboxes for new mail. The same applies for sent mail, etc. It's likely not an issue for most users, but it's something that works flawlessly in other full featured PIM/email clients. For now I'm stuck using slower, uglier PIMs because of a lack of basic IMAP search functionality in KMail. Until it's resolved I'd hesitate to call Kontact "streets ahead" of either Thunderbird, Evolution, or Outlook.
8. Re:Excellent news by conares · 2008-07-04 22:27 · Score: 0
  
  ..and Krita is so slow its unuseable... Gimp still wins!
  
  --
  That, that really grinds my gears!
Unique by spectrokid · 2008-07-03 21:54 · Score: 3, Interesting

KOffice is different from OO and MSOffice in that it has a clean codebase and is written for a toolkit which actually also is used for something else. Even microsoft doesn't eat its own dogfood and steers clear of dot net for MSOffice. In this way KOffice must be faster growing and could have a nice future.

--
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
Tag? by FurtiveGlancer · 2008-07-03 21:57 · Score: 1

Hello, it's running on windows. How about a tag to reflect that? Darn, I hate being a n00b.

--
Invenio via vel creo
1. Re:Tag? by hedwards · 2008-07-03 22:04 · Score: 0, Offtopic
  
  But can it run Linux?
One slight problem... by madenglishbloke · 2008-07-03 22:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

On thing that concerns me - Linux-style package management is something that anyone who has been using Linux for any length of time will know and understand - but for a general 'Doze user to suddenly be told "you want to install packages A, B, +C, which require packages X, Y, +Z", this is going to set off all sorts of alarms. A lot of Windows users are (finally) getting used to the idea that some software will try and install all manner of nasties, they are going to see this list of additional software that needs installing, and freak out, meaning theyre not going to install it. Pity, as this looks as if it could potentially be a viable alternative to MS Orifice or OpenOffice.
1. Re:One slight problem... by Prep_Styles · 2008-07-03 22:07 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I think your concern is justified, but can they not release a single installer with all necessary files as needed? Windows users would have to wait for someone to release a stable build but I don't see the problem with that. The rest of use can just run it on Linux.
2. Re:One slight problem... by madenglishbloke · 2008-07-03 22:20 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  A single installer would be great - but going off the 6th screen-shot, adding additional features later would invoke the download of extra packages that you didnt explicitly ask for. With my Linux user hat on, I'm thinking "Ok, go ahead" - but with my 'Doze admin hat on, my first instinct is "ok, so whats going on here then?"
3. Re:One slight problem... by Yfrwlf · 2008-07-03 22:37 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Regardless of the platform, I'm pretty sure you can include and link to your own libraries if you think the targeted platform may not have them.
  
  What's really needed is for the LSB to finish ironing out a point of standardization for Linux packages so that all package managers can easily install software packages so that you'll have smaller downloads and better installation management when installing out-of-the-repo software. For Windows users though, it's highly unlikely that they will have any of the required libraries installed, so the Windows installer should be bigger and come with all the libraries.
  
  --
  Promote true freedom - support standards and interoperability.
4. Re:One slight problem... by Ash-Fox · 2008-07-03 22:52 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  this is going to set off all sorts of alarms. A lot of Windows users are (finally) getting used to the idea that some software will try and install all manner of nasties, they are going to see this list of additional software that needs installing, and freak out, meaning theyre not going to install it. Pity, as this looks as if it could potentially be a viable alternative to MS Orifice or OpenOffice.
  Windows users install runtimes all the time, .net runtime, java runtime, visual basic runtime, new msvc runtimes etc. No, I don#t agree with your hypothesis.
  
  --
  Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
5. Re:One slight problem... by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-03 23:55 · Score: 0
  
  .Net and Java are whole things though -- there's not this overly granular option.
6. Re:One slight problem... by Ash-Fox · 2008-07-04 04:50 · Score: 1
  
  .Net and Java are whole things though -- there's not this overly granular option.
  Pretty sure downloading the KDE base libraries would pretty much have the same effect in this case for all KDE applications.
  
  --
  Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
7. Re:One slight problem... by Prep_Styles · 2008-07-09 18:28 · Score: 1
  
  I see. I didn't consider how network admins would question it. I guess windows would have to be stuck with one or more subsets of features to choose from. That sours the deal quit a bit but I suppose it is still worth while.
FLOSS flood by zarlino · 2008-07-03 22:16 · Score: 5, Interesting

in a year or two, as this ports mature, Windows and OSX are going to be flooded with KDE free software: Amarok music player, Gwenview image viewer, Digikam photo manager, Kopete instant messenger, and many many more. I think this is exciting news but probably a bit scary for commercial ISVs...

--
Check out my cross-platform apps
1. Re:FLOSS flood by Paradigm_Complex · 2008-07-03 23:40 · Score: 1
  
  Firefox was the single greatest tool for me to use to help people realize there's options other than Windows and OSX. On Linux or BSD: "Oh wow, it's exactly the same!" I've even run across a fair few people who are familiar with VLC or pidgin or maybe some other solid F/OSS program to show them that trying something that isn't made by MS or Apple doesn't mean it's going to be completely different or foreign or difficult. If KDE stuff spreads onto Windows and OSX as you're predicting, as unintuitive as it sounds, it'll be a boon for Linux and BSD and Solaris and all the other goodies :D
  
  --
  "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
2. Re:FLOSS flood by aztracker1 · 2008-07-07 11:17 · Score: 1
  
  Personally, I really like Amarok... Winamp is a close second imho, and iTunes is an abomination by comparison... would love to see it on windows and osx.. :) I know you can force-feed amarok into osx, but it isn't very nice yet.
  
  --
  Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
I'll second that! by Gazzonyx · 2008-07-03 22:32 · Score: 4, Interesting

I agree. The way that Windows package management, if you will, is geared towards single file binary installers. Or, a network admin install, as MSI supports both. Really, I haven't seen much legit use of DLLs as they were intended (shared libraries) when it comes to applications. After "DLL Hell" everyone just started statically linking in the libraries, and can you blame them? I mean, MSI does have some really cool features, but dependency tracking for DLLs is not one of them.

I routinely have statically linked executables that will just refuse to uninstall and I can't get rid of the entry. Then I'm stuck ripping out shards of the program from every folder structure and the registry... for the next two years. At that point, they're still resident when I blow away my OS partition and steamroller a new Windows install.

People are used to Windows install routines by now; you get the programName-setup.exe or .msi, double click on it, and watch the bar go across the screen. And, for the most part, Windows does this well, barring the usual head-desk moments that we all love (aha! let's use spaces in the %programfiles% directory name and then half support them and leave everyone guessing where they should put quotes!) and I don't think that we should try force Linux style library schemes on to a system that doesn't want or need it. Doubly so for users that won't understand it!

Full disclosure: I run Slackware and Windows at home (and BSD and Mac) and prefer to compile from source, at work we use RHEL and Windows and if not for the ease of having repositories, I'd take MSI-2/3 over RPM-2/3 any day of the week.

--
If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.
1. Re:I'll second that! by lpontiac · 2008-07-03 22:38 · Score: 1
  
  I mean, MSI does have some really cool features, but dependency tracking for DLLs is not one of them.
  
  Take a look at C:\Windows\WinSxS on an XP SP2 or later system. MSI won't magically download stuff on demand, and I don't think it does "this version _or better_ handling", but it will save you from having ten different copies of the VC++8.0 runtime on your machine, and I think will allow commonly redistributed libraries to have a common copy receive a security update via Windows Update.
2. Re:I'll second that! by 10101001+10101001 · 2008-07-04 00:07 · Score: 1
  
  So, I'm not sure I'm getting what the problem is exactly. What's stopping the creation of programName-Setup.exe that will install the package-install (if not already installed) and will launch package-install to actually install programName (along with dependencies)?
  As far as users are concerned, it'll just mean two progress bars. One will be for download progress of all packages. The other will be for the install progress of all packages. This isn't at all different from any other network based installer. The only real problem possibly is orphaned packages, but even that is probably fixable by auto removing orphaned packages.
  Except for the fact that, AFAIK, the above hasn't been done, what's particularly undoable about it?
  
  --
  Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
3. Re:I'll second that! by WNight · 2008-07-04 05:26 · Score: 1
  
  If it's free software it'll be useless, and you'll be stupid for talking about it, unless it's perfect. Not just working, but looking.
  On the other hand, if it's commercial software... I have Canon CD (printer stuff I think) that installs 4 apps and drivers, with multiple popup windows, different progress bars, etc. Anyways - a train wreck. And it's not that uncommon.
  What we need to do is charge, a lot, for KOffice. Then people will love it. At $100 each they'll warm to it. At $500/seat they'll love it, at $2500/seat they'll swear by it!
  I should borrow the audiophile trick... KOffice, $76,000 - makes your documents more readable by removing invisible hostilities, removes unwanted sarcasm, words flow more easily, alliteration alleviates, increases likelihood of bid acceptance, project timelines are more accurate, etc.
4. Re:I'll second that! by Gazzonyx · 2008-07-04 05:44 · Score: 1
  
  It's not undoable by any account, but it goes against how the platform natively views a package. It just means that it will be extra effort to do things like updates. As with all things, it's just usually easier to use the underlying platforms built in functionality than to work around it. Windows mostly views an application as a monolithic entity (which makes sense for pushing updates as deltas) rather than a collection of packages.
  
  Though, cygwin does installs and updates exactly as you describe, so it's definitely doable.
  
  --
  If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.
5. Re:I'll second that! by jesterzog · 2008-07-05 18:17 · Score: 1
  
  Really, I haven't seen much legit use of DLLs as they were intended (shared libraries) when it comes to applications. After "DLL Hell" everyone just started statically linking in the libraries, and can you blame them? I mean, MSI does have some really cool features, but dependency tracking for DLLs is not one of them.
  I'd have to give Microsoft some credit for trying at least, I guess. MSI installers do support Merge Modules, which help the OS to track what's been installed and what hasn't, and will un-install it once the last application is removed. Furthermore, the point of the Global Assembly Cache is to allow assemblies to be installed several times for different versions, which at least does away with getting the wrong DLL because each assembly is identified by both a version number and being signed by the source that provided the version number. If the GAC is used properly with merge modules then you can theoretically have some quite nice synchronised installations of many different bits of software.
  It's still fraught with many problems, though. For instance, if someone writes a re-usable library then they really have to provide a merge module for that library for everyone to use, or there's no obvious way that the client applications can all incorporate the same one. (If I make a merge module for someone else's library and you make a merge module for the same library, Windows won't recognise them as the same.) Even Microsoft doesn't seem to provide Merge Modules for a lot of its "reusable" components, which I've often thought is a bit annoying.
  Ultimately I think the entire problem with package management in Windows is that it's not all able to be managed by a single source, specifically because it's proprietary software... and proprietary vendors don't like letting other people distribute their software. With Free Software, everything's available with a licence that lets anyone else redistribute it under certain generally consistent terms. That's the point of it, after all, and it means that an organisation like Debian or RedHat or whoever can take 10,000+ libraries and applications from a huge number of independent vendors and authors, tune them all to work together nicely, and package them up for distribution with well-defined meta information about exactly how each part of the system fits with every other part. If I want to install an application on Debian, it's as simple as 'sudo aptitude install [packagename]', and all the required libraries that I don't already have are downloaded from the Debian repository and installed on my PC. If I remove an application and certain libraries are no longer required, they'll be removed automatically. Even if Debian doesn't package the software I want, I can still make my own package with the necessary files, state its dependencies, and install my package with confidence that it'll be properly removed when I want to remove it.
  This can never happen with proprietary software and licence hell, because every vendor is so protective about its own turf and having control of the distribution of what it produces, presumably so it can make sure it gets paid by anyone who obtains the software, or whatever. The only libraries that can be reliably re-used are those that you know should definitely be there, such as those provided by Microsoft and included with Windows.
6. Re:I'll second that! by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-06 13:33 · Score: 0
  
  I mostly agree with you, however I think you're attributing too much to proprietary vs open. On Linux (Ubuntu) I have several 3rd party repos that are open and proprietary and that works fine. So they can still control the distribution mechanism with Linux, and something like that could happen on Linux too. One of the packages I get is proprietary and when I run it after an update I have to give the software a decryption key (from a website) and so in this case they control the distribution (I get it via apt from their servers) and I need to go to their website.
  With stronger leadership Microsoft could have had a centralised update mechanism like the Unixes, and when you look at the APT (or YUM) model it actually allows for a lot of control. It helps keep software updated and yet vendors can require keys and their users to visit websites to view adverts. I believe that it would work for proprietary vendors.
  Users take the blame for not updating rather than indequate package management -- that's the comfortable status of software management on Windows. It really should be fixed in an APT-like distributed manner -- not in a centralised Windows update (which, we would presumbly agree, is why vendors don't like it).
1997 called... by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-03 22:33 · Score: 5, Funny

... and they want their UI back.
1. Re:1997 called... by JasterBobaMereel · 2008-07-03 22:49 · Score: 1
  
  Windows is skinnable (thanks to a few hints from Opensource) Guess which theme was used for the screenshots
  MacOSX and Linux called and want their UI back from Vista ....
  
  --
  Puteulanus fenestra mortis
2. Re:1997 called... by xtracto · 2008-07-03 23:07 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  MacOSX and Linux called and want their UI back from Vista ....
  Oh yeah??
  Xerox called, they want their Windowed GUI paradigm back from OSX, X-Window, MS Windows, et all.
  
  --
  Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
3. Re:1997 called... by zander · 2008-07-03 23:26 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  The screenshots have just been made with a bad theme, in vista it looks native.
4. Re:1997 called... by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 00:41 · Score: 0
  
  KUNT!
5. Re:1997 called... by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 01:27 · Score: 0
  
  Greetings!
  I'd just like to remind you that your loan of my computing machinery has expired and I will need to have it returned to my estate immediately.
  Yours Sincerely,
6. Re:1997 called... by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 01:40 · Score: 0
  
  My dearest friend, Konrad Zuse,
  It appears your last punch card failed to load. If you had actually taken the time to read my papers, this wouldn't have ever happened.
  Kindest Regards,
  Charles Babbage
7. Re:1997 called... by knutkracker · 2008-07-04 01:51 · Score: 0
  
  KUNT!
  Is that an acronym I'm not familiar with or are you German?
8. Re:1997 called... by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 08:18 · Score: 0
  
  Ironic you say that, because many shops still use Office 97. I guess new for the sake of new doesn't quite cut it for everyone.
9. Re:1997 called... by conares · 2008-07-04 22:34 · Score: 0
  
  Xerox called, they dont want their trademark mentioned in stupid comments on /.!
  
  --
  That, that really grinds my gears!
Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by wrook · 2008-07-03 22:47 · Score: 3, Interesting

I've been a TeX user most of my working life. But since becoming a teacher, I've realized that I need a word processor for making pretty handouts. Each one of my handouts is layed out differently, so doing that in TeX was taking too much time.
But, OOWriter is driving me batty. Really, I just need to make numbered paragraphs with numbered points underneath. I need to be able to paste pretty clipart and wrap paragraphs around or through them. I need to be able to write Japanese text. And I need to be able to output PDF (optionally doc file format too).
It shouldn't be too bad. But OOWriter is insane. It keeps renumbering my paragraphs, seemingly randomly (and often between loads and saves). It changes my fonts on me (again often between loads and saves). I've tried to turn off every fricken' "auto" feature I can, but it still insists on guessing what I want (badly). I really do hate it.
So my question is, is there a very simple word processor that I can use to do simple construction and layout that does *nothing* automatically and works *every single time* without fucking up my formatting?
1. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by TeknoHog · 2008-07-03 23:01 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  I'm a teacher and I use TeX almost always to write handouts. Occasionally I get compliments on the nice and professional look :) Anyway, my usual choice for a "word processor" is Abiword, along with Gnumeric for spreadsheets. They may be a little on the light/simple side of things, but at least they don't try overthink you.
  
  --
  Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
2. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by apathy+maybe · 2008-07-03 23:06 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  I looked at http://www.lyx.org/ a few years ago, and it was alright. It wasn't what I wanted though, not needing or knowing LaTeX.
  However, you already use TeX, so it might just what you want.
  Or alternatively, have a look at AbiWord from http://www.abisource.com/ it is simple, and shouldn't screw things up if you use the native file format (an XML based thingy).
  I use AbiWord all the time for quick loading WP without too many fancy things. One caveat, it sometimes crashes for no explicable reason, and then causes you to have to re-write everything that you hadn't saved.
  
  --
  I wank in the shower.
3. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by maxume · 2008-07-03 23:16 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Uncheck "Gremlins" on the advanced options tab.
  
  --
  Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
4. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by urcreepyneighbor · 2008-07-03 23:35 · Score: 1
  
  Uncheck "Gremlins" on the advanced options tab.
  And "Shatner".
  
  --
  "The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
5. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by Aviation+Pete · 2008-07-04 00:52 · Score: 1
  
  Use LyX (http://www.lyx.org/). It's a frontend for TeX and supports embedded graphics, lists and automatic numbering including table of contents. If you stick with the same template, output should be very consistent.
  Runs on all major platforms, too.
  
  --
  You know it's time for the next revolution when your rulers' names end with roman numerals.
6. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by pwizard2 · 2008-07-04 02:35 · Score: 1
  
  So my question is, is there a very simple word processor that I can use to do simple construction and layout that does *nothing* automatically and works *every single time* without fucking up my formatting?
  Try Scribus. It's a nice little desktop publishing program that does quite a bit, (with more being added each release) although it's nowhere near as powerful as Indesign, Quark, or Framemaker. I personaly use the 1.3.4 development version but the stable version is still useful. Note: Files created in any given version of Scribus are not backwards-compatible with older versions. Aside from that, it's a great program.
  
  You should do your writing/editing in a word processor (which is what a WP is really for, layout capability is just a bonus) and then import the document into Scribus to do your layout.
  
  --
  "It is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen; that is the common right of humanity."
7. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by rrkap · 2008-07-04 03:45 · Score: 1
  
  It isn't free, but the ONLY word processor I've found that is reasonably capable and doesn't fuck up my formatting is WordPerfect. I've used versions 8-11, so I can't speak for the latest version, but for the versions I have used, nothing comes close in ease of formatting. It's a shame that its Word compatibility isn't perfect, otherwise I wouldn't be stuck using Word for every document that I have to exchange.
  
  --
  I like my beverages with warning labels!
8. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by celle · 2008-07-04 04:11 · Score: 1
  
  If your already using Tex this program does make it easier to load and save various configurations. If you haven't heard of it its called Lyx at website lyx.org. It's aimed at scientific use but works well for general functions too.
9. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by maxume · 2008-07-04 04:41 · Score: 1
  
  What idiot modded this crap insightful?
  
  --
  Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
10. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 06:22 · Score: 0
  
  Microsoft Word
11. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by Peter+H.S. · 2008-07-04 06:50 · Score: 1
  
  Oh, WordPerfect. The only Windows software I miss on Linux. Was a (paying) user since the 5.1 DOS version until around MS-Windows 2000. "Reveal codes" was a thing of beauty when handling lots of different documents form different pc's and platforms. Kerning etc. gave superior printresults compared to MS-Word. Had to ditch WP and stop recommending it to others since Corel never did update its dictionary since the DOS version in my native language.
  I believe MS now owns a controlling share in the company now owning WP, IMHO mostly to prevent that WordPerfect gets ported to QT and becomes a multi-platform wordprocessor on both Windows, Linux and OSX.
  --
  Regards
12. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by True+Grit · 2008-07-04 09:58 · Score: 1
  
  Someone above has already mentioned Lyx, but if you (or anyone else reading this) are already using the KDE environment, there is also Kile which is a Latex front-end app similar to Lyx, but for KDE.
13. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 09:59 · Score: 0
  
  SoftMaker
14. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by El_Oscuro · 2008-07-04 11:22 · Score: 1
  
  It shouldn't be too bad. But OOWriter is insane. It keeps renumbering my paragraphs, seemingly randomly (and often between loads and saves). It changes my fonts on me (again often between loads and saves). I've tried to turn off every fricken' "auto" feature I can, but it still insists on guessing what I want (badly). I really do hate it.
  You have just described my experience over the last several years with MS Word 2000/2003 with numbered/bulleted lists. I have to write lots of SOPs which use lists, and I spend more time trying to undo Mr. Bills "help" than I do writing the content.
  
  --
  "Be grateful for what you have. You may never know when you may lose it."
15. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by wrook · 2008-07-04 18:35 · Score: 1
  
  Ha ha... I used to be a developer on Word Perfect :-). But I'm afraid that it too doesn't work nearly as well as I'd like (maybe I'm sensitive). However, the reveal codes certainly let you fix problems that crop up.
16. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by wrook · 2008-07-04 18:45 · Score: 1
  
  I believe MS now owns a controlling share in the company now owning WP, IMHO mostly to prevent that WordPerfect gets ported to QT and becomes a multi-platform wordprocessor on both Windows, Linux and OSX.
  No. MS bought 25% non-voting shares a few years ago for $135M dollars. Then they sold the shares to a venture capital company (Vector -- Paul Allen is one of the investors) for $13M (i.e. less than 10% of the original cost). The shares had a veto on acquisitions. Corel was in the process of trying to make several acquisitions when Vector threatened to squelch all the deals unless the board recommended a Vector buyout.
  Vector ended up buying out the company for about $110M IIRC. However the company had about $65M in cash at the time, so the overall cost was $45M plus their initial $13M -- grand total of $58M. A little while ago, Vector did an IPO of 25% of the stock and got about $60M IIRC
  M$ doesn't play stupid games to stop things from being ported. They play ridiculously Machiavelian games to make huge sums of cash for themselves and their friends.
  P.S. I lost my job at Corel when my department was dissolved following the Vector takeover ;-)
17. Re:Good Free Software WordPro Recommendation? by Peter+H.S. · 2008-07-05 10:07 · Score: 1
  
  No. MS bought 25% non-voting shares a few years ago for $135M dollars. Then they sold the shares to a venture capital company (Vector -- Paul Allen is one of the investors) for $13M (i.e. less than 10% of the original cost). The shares had a veto on acquisitions. Corel was in the process of trying to make several acquisitions when Vector threatened to squelch all the deals unless the board recommended a Vector buyout.
  Vector ended up buying out the company for about $110M IIRC. However the company had about $65M in cash at the time, so the overall cost was $45M plus their initial $13M -- grand total of $58M. A little while ago, Vector did an IPO of 25% of the stock and got about $60M IIRC
  So instead of being 25% directly owned of MS, WordPerfect is now owned 100% of a MS controlled socket puppet firm. That greedy MS sells anything below marketvalue just shows their "friendly" affiliation.
  M$ doesn't play stupid games to stop things from being ported. They play ridiculously Machiavelian games to make huge sums of cash for themselves and their friends.
  Yes they do. The Stacker-case, and how MS behaved with Quarterdeck QEMM and DESQview just shows how mean spirited MS where. Don't forget the SCO case, it is obvious that there are several leads back directly to MS. IMHO MS isn't just a greedy company they also have streaks of psychopathic behavior (cough*Gates*Ballmer*cough).
  P.S. I lost my job at Corel when my department was dissolved following the Vector takeover ;-)
  Sorry to hear, hope it turned out good in the end.
  --
  Regards
Just tried it out by retro83 · 2008-07-03 22:47 · Score: 3, Informative

It's a good start! It fires up OK, but cannot open any documents (message says: "Cannot read from start of file"). There are also still a lot of crashes which is to be expected - but unfortunately it leaves a whole load of KDE processes running when it does so. Looks fantastic though, and it starts surprisingly fast. I really hope this becomes stable enough to be a viable alternative to MS/Open Office.
Plans for KOffice on CD? by tepples · 2008-07-03 22:51 · Score: 4, Interesting

I can't think of a benefit that couldn't be replicated through another method with both less hassle for the user AND less work for the developers.
Slashdot recently ran a story about a study of dial-up Internet users, which showed that 49 percent of dial-up Internet users in the United States couldn't afford broadband. The OpenOffice.org project works around this by listing vendors that will distribute copies on CDs for a fee. Once KOffice for Windows is out of alpha and beta, who will be the first to do the same for KOffice?
1. Re:Plans for KOffice on CD? by Clueless+Nick · 2008-07-03 23:33 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  I don't know about your home country, but I get my CDs downloaded and shipped by Zyxware
  http://www.zyxware.com/requestcd
  
  --
  Chat with other atheists http://secularchat.org
How can you possibly call that a good start? by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 00:12 · Score: 0

Sometimes I really wonder what Slashdotters are smoking. Anyway, I don't really doubt they'll get it working sooner or later, but still.
1. Re:How can you possibly call that a good start? by Lehk228 · 2008-07-04 01:23 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  it's an alpha of a port to a new platform, i'd be willing to look the other way on just about any issue that doesn't damage the computer it is installed to.
  
  --
  Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Me too, by Comboman · 2008-07-04 00:15 · Score: 1

Anyone else really hate online installers?

Yes! Why do developers assume that every computer has a fast, always-on connection to the internet? Some computers, for reasons of security, practicality, expense or other reasons, are not connected (or only sometimes connected, or slowly connected). If I can't download a full package that can be installed on another computer from a USB flash drive, then that's a program I won't be installing.

And while we're on the topic of annoying installers, I also hate the ones that assume everyone already has Visual Basic, Visual C++, etc. run-time DLLs. If it didn't come with Windows, don't assume I have it. At least tell me when I'm downloading your program that I need them and where I can find them.

--
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
Work with Open Office? by gilesjuk · 2008-07-04 00:20 · Score: 0, Redundant

It's a shame the KOffice people can't get together with Open Office and blow Microsoft Office out of the water.
Do we really need two or more office alternatives? I know it can often be frustrating working for these projects and forks have occurred numerous times (XFree86/Xorg) when project leaders have been unwilling to change the software.
1. Re:Work with Open Office? by BrentH · 2008-07-04 01:07 · Score: 1
  
  Provided they all support open formats in a consistent way (which, last time I checked, sadly wasn't the case: mostly formatting differences), what would it matter if there are multiple suites operating correctly with those formats? I some like the interface of OpenOffice, others Abiword, and some KOffice. As lang as I can move files across them with full compatibility, I'm happy. I agree that the OpenOffice team needs to do something fast. Apart from very minor changes I can't tell 0.9 apart from 3.0. I think they should focus on actually improving and adding/changing the interface (the presentation interface of that Mac-app that Jobs uses is vastly superior to anything else imho, why not have that) and cutting bloat. Perhaps they should take the ribbon too, OpenOffice directly competes with MSOffice after all.
2. Re:Work with Open Office? by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 01:21 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Do we really need two or more office alternatives?
  
  Yes, we do. Your question is like saying "Do we need anything else that's not MS Office?"
  Having at least two cross-platform office suites gives people choice. You don't have to like ooo's interface/speed/memory usage because now you have Koffice, and if you don't like Koffice, you have ooo, abiword-gnumeric, etc.
  I personally, like Koffice a lot more than ooo, maybe the ooo team could work together with Koffice :).
Then Word is incompatible by tepples · 2008-07-04 00:53 · Score: 1

* any broken formatting when opening a non-native file format means it's incompatible as far as I'm concerned.
Then you might as well go download Microsoft's ODF plug-in for Microsoft Office Word, find one little error, and then call Word "incompatible" with ODF. If you want to preserve formatting, use a desktop publishing program that's designed to preserve formatting, and then export to PDF.
1. Re:Then Word is incompatible by squoozer · 2008-07-04 02:03 · Score: 1
  
  If word can't correctly read and format 99.99% of ODF documents perfectly it's not fully compatible with ODF. At 99.99% you are talking about 1 in 10000 documents having a formatting error (it's actually probably better than that because the problems are most likely to appear in rarely used formatting types but the idea is good). That isn't a fantastic level of realiability IMHO. In a company where 100 people are using Office that would mean one user would see a fault every 100 documents. I could easily imagine people use 100 documents a month. In reality I bet the "perfect conversion" rate is much lower, something like 80% with another 19.5% being pretty well converted - well enough that the developers feel they can get away without calling it a failure. Maybe some people are willing to live with that level of reliability but I'm not. Don't get me wrong I use Open Office for all my personal documents but everything for my company is MS Office and never the twain shall meet.
  
  --
  I used to have a better sig but it broke.
2. Re:Then Word is incompatible by WNight · 2008-07-04 04:27 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  This is funny. Imagine going to your boss and telling him that some Office bug would cause small rendering errors in 10% of your documents, mandating fixes in up to 1% of old documents that needed re-use. He'd be very slightly concerned.
  Now tell him that it'll cost a few thousand dollars to remedy this, you'll have to accept vendor lock-in to prevent it, and that even that version has errors, just fewer, with your documents. You'd need to hire a portability expert to check all the documents for problems and even then, there'd be no guarantee of correctness, or warranty on the software.
  See if he cares once he hears about the price tag.
  If you present this as "I could save thousands by installing untested new software" they'll laugh. But if you question the wisdom of buying all-new software for thousands of dollars, they'll ask why the old version needs updating. If you explain about the possibility of layout glitches they'll probably explain that they used to survive just fine with carbon-paper copies and not to worry about looks.
  The decision to switch away from MS is dangerous - they're liable if anything goes wrong. So just phrase the question as one of upgrading to new MS software, so they'd be liable for all the costs and problems and the only real benefit is layout compatibility with some documents. They just don't see that side. And they see MS saying that if you don't upgrade your documents will come to life and eat people. They have no real understanding and it's up to you to present problems in a realistic way.
Have you looked at LyX? by ctid · 2008-07-04 01:28 · Score: 1

Last I checked it was at 1.5.5 and it is really easy to use. A lot of time that you otherwise waste with formatting is simply saved by its approach. Given you already have experience of using TeX you might like it.

--
Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
kwrite via MS Windows version of KDE! by pbhj · 2008-07-04 02:07 · Score: 4, Informative

In which case you should be looking at the KDE install for windows, sorry it's via an easy-as-falling-over installer too.
http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/KDE_on_Windows/Installation
Kwrite IIRC is part of the default installation - it's on my Vista install (I'm not rebooting to check).
More info at http://windows.kde.org/ too.
HTH
1. Re:kwrite via MS Windows version of KDE! by cbhacking · 2008-07-04 11:19 · Score: 1
  
  Yep - KWrite (and its multi-document container app Kate) are part of the KDE on WIndows, and have been available since KDE 4.0 was released some months ago. While some of Kate's features weren't quite there, it was still eminently suitable for working on some C code.
  
  --
  There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Microsoft 2017 called.... by pandrijeczko · 2008-07-04 02:55 · Score: 1

...you have not paid your monthly MS subscription - here's a blank hard disk back.

--
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
Re: "I can't do ___ until you get ____" by TaoPhoenix · 2008-07-04 03:14 · Score: 1

And as you wished, it does that too.
I am getting hard "missing file" errors. I know it's only Alpha, but at least it should be able to open the very initial part of the app.
The first example is "phonon.dll"... but there are more. Randomly looking on the web returned a blog entry by a guy who hated the phonon concept.

--
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
All hail the 3-digit UID. by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 03:25 · Score: 0

better listen to this guy.
Yeah, that's the first thing I ask myself... by Illbay · 2008-07-04 03:55 · Score: 1

...when I try new software. "Does it have a clean codebase?"
Of course the fact that I'm not a coder, and have no way of knowing the answer to this is irrelevant. I'm sure I can find the answer to my question SOMEWHERE, proffered by someone who DOES claim to know.
The divide between "makers" and "users" of software has NEVER been so evident.

--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
1. Re:Yeah, that's the first thing I ask myself... by Macka · 2008-07-04 20:05 · Score: 1
  
  His point about a clean code base is that it lowers the bar for new developers to join the project. By comparison, OOo internals are supposed to be a nightmare maze of twisty little passages and difficult to learn.
  This was the reason why Apple originally chose KDE's KHTML source code over Mozilla's Gecko. Clean, lean, code that was easy to understand, debug and extend. The fruits of that we see today in Safari and Webkit.
2. Re:Yeah, that's the first thing I ask myself... by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-05 00:30 · Score: 0
  Yeah, that's the first thing I ask myself... ...when I try new software. "Does it have a clean codebase?"
  This is still software in development. At that point some these questions are important:
  
  How fast can you develop new features?
  How attractive is it for developers to join the project
  It means the project has potential, and you'll eventually pick the fruits from it when KOffice is released as a final product for users like you.
  (and it really sucks if you can't post in the new discussion system if you made moderations. try it, there is a question but no continue or submit button :p)
More KDE Apps on Mac or Windows ? by Rastikan · 2008-07-04 06:19 · Score: 1

KOffice means KDE desktop, does it mean that from now on it could be much easier to port ( or vene better install) most KDE applications on a Windows/Mac machine once it has KOffice installed?
1. Re:More KDE Apps on Mac or Windows ? by ThePhilips · 2008-07-05 00:21 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Some devels were posting shots of KDE running on Windows.
  Qt4 made major improvements which allowed for KDE4 to be easier ported to Windows.
  For KOffice to function, you have to have KDE4 installed. And the installer from RTFA is essentially alpha installer for KDE4 for Windows - now also including KOffice. Even if you would select only KOffice, most of KDE4 would be also installed since KOffice depends on it.
  If you are not sure, just give it a try - http://www.koffice.org/releases/2.0alpha8-release.php. You can always simple remove KDE4 from your hard drive. it doesn't yet integrates with Windows deeply: simple removal of directory would do a trick. After installation, go into bin/ directory and launch kword.exe. It's alpha quality - but it works somehow already.
  P.S. My personal favorite of KDE4 is Mahjong with SVG graphics. Install kdegames package to get it.
  
  --
  All hope abandon ye who enter here.
Re: "I can't do ___ until you get ____" by allanw · 2008-07-04 07:16 · Score: 1

See the first result on google for "phonon.dll":
http://raviratlami1.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-download-and-install-phonondll.html
Emacs is outstanding. It only lacks a good editor! by Anonymous Coward · 2008-07-04 10:18 · Score: 0

Emacs is outstanding. It only lacks a good editor!
Konsole is what I really need by Josh · 2008-07-04 10:42 · Score: 1

Is there a port of Konsole or some similarly functioned terminal emulator to Win32?