IE 8 To Include New Security Tools

Trailrunner7 writes "Internet Explorer has been a security punching bag for years, and rightfully so. IE 6 was arguably the least secure browser of all time. But Microsoft has been trying to get their act together on security, and the new beta of IE 8, due in August, will have a slew of new security features, including protection against Type-1 cross-site scripting attacks, a better phishing filter and better security for ActiveX controls."

Comments

Better security for ActiveX controls

[sakdoctor]

Or scrap ActiveX controls?

Re:Better security for ActiveX controls

[Tweenk]

ActiveX is a critical technology in (South) Korea - you can't do any online banking, online shopping, etc. without ActiveX support. MS can't drop ActiveX or it would lose the Korean market.

Re:Better security for ActiveX controls

[Anonymous Coward]

> MS can't drop ActiveX or it would lose the Korean market.

Lose it to whom? There aren't any other ActiveX providers, so if MS dropped ActiveX, South Korea would have no choice but to use whatever MS would provide as replacement.

Re:Better security for ActiveX controls

[TheNetAvenger]

Or scrap ActiveX controls?

Too much legacy, best thing to do is continue to sandbox them as much as possible.

MS is shoving devlopers to either Silverlight or XBAP that have extensive sandboxing/security in comparison. MS has been in the process of killing ActiveX for several years now, next trick is to smack the developers around by making non-internal deployment really freaking hard.

Even Win32/64 has been being killed off slowly, but developers are slow moving creatures sometimes. (This is the biggest reason even people that hate Vista should be rooting for it to replace XP at the very least, as the non-Win32 APIs are its bread and butter, even working directly inside the vector composer of Vista, that XP can't do even if you try running .NET 3.x on it.)

Re:Better security for ActiveX controls

[JebusIsLord]

ActiveX is the only thing keeping large businesses TIED to IE. The last thing MS would do is scrap them. And to be honest, within a corporate intranet (where users don't have the rights to install activex controls), ActiveX is a pretty solid technology.

Re:Better security for ActiveX controls

[IntlHarvester]

Neither are sandboxed and both run with the same privs as the browser AFAIK.

The only real difference is that Firefox comes with a whitelist which prevents random sites from installing add-ons.

Re:Better security for ActiveX controls

[IntlHarvester]

There is an ActiveX plugin for Firefox: http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/plugin.htm

Either browser could easily support ActiveX on Windows if they wanted to. The main reason they don't is for marketing reasons (because it's perceived to be insecure).

Aside from that ActiveX is actually a documented Open Group standard, and there are (were) 3rd party implementations.

Re:Better security for ActiveX controls

[IntlHarvester]

It isn't.

But yet every single modern browser has a way of running 3rd party binary 'plug-ins' or 'add-on' because its too damn useful. Therefore the only real distinction here between browsers that support ActiveX and browsers that don't is marketing.

Re:Better security for ActiveX controls

[IntlHarvester]

Actually, I'm not. If you look at that Firefox plug-in I linked above, it uses a site whitelist which makes it considerably more secure than IE. Just because IE has/had poor ActiveX security doesn't mean another browser would have the same policies.

Look at the posts in this thread. Everyone's convinced that "ActiveX==BAD" while they probably have 50 Firefox add-ins and plug-ins installed. They're the basically the same damn thing, so I'll maintain this is almost entirely a perception issue (which exists for valid, but historical reasons).

Re:Better security for ActiveX controls

[Daimaou]

Or maybe South Korea could pull their collective head out and stop supporting lock-in and using crap technologies.

Re:Better security for ActiveX controls

[man_of_mr_e]

Ahh yes, whitelisting. You know what would happen if Microsoft did the same thing, they'd be accused of monopolizing the ActiveX market and using their power to control who is allowed to install controls and who isn't.

There is no solution there.

Was I the only one to misread the title?

[The Standard Deviant]

Was I the only one to misread the title as: "IE 8 To Include New Security Holes" ?

Re:Was I the only one to misread the title?

[kjart]

Was I the only one to misread the title as: "IE 8 To Include New Security Holes" ?

That's true for almost everything new. As complexity rises, so does the chance of a problem, and browsers are surprisingly complex nowadays.

Let me guess...

[GSPride]

An 'Install Firefox' button?

Re:Let me guess...

[lostmongoose]

As bad as they've been about IE security in the past, they're actually trying this time.

Because they say they are, right? They've said that it'll be more secure than before everytime they've done this and nothing really changes.

Re:Let me guess...

[drinkypoo]

While IE7 is still a big pile of crap, it's not QUITE as bad as IE6. Maybe IE8 will be not QUITE as bad as IE7... It could be the beginning of an underwhelming trend!

Nope, just the best one to date.

[DaedalusHKX]

"Uninstall Internet Explorer 8? Are you sure? Yes/Yes"

Perfect security tool, IMHO.

Re:Nope, just the best one to date.

[GigaplexNZ]

You paid $300 for use of software, I assume you got some use out of it, and later on after the shelf life of the product you want a refund not only for the full amount, but an amount higher than you initially paid for it? That's some serious optimism there. For the sake of argument, let's assume you are entitled to a refund. If you got any use out of the product at all, you are not entitled to a full refund, as you would be getting something for nothing. Even if you never were successfully able to activate (thus being entitled to a full refund), you made a conscious decision to buy the software at that price at that time, forgoing any interest you might have made on the money. If the software did work, you still wouldn't have got that interest.

Re:Nope, just the best one to date.

[DaedalusHKX]

Technically, if they break the use of the product it is THEM that broke it. For example, if you take a car to a dealership for an oil change, and they break your transmission, the auto company/dealership is NOT immune to a lawsuit because "hey, you got usage out of the transmission".

In fact, they will have to get you the FULL value of the transmission / replace it with a fully working one. See the whole issue is that a remedy to a broken contract is supposed to set you off AS WELL OR BETTER THAN BEFORE THE DAMAGE WAS INCURRED!

Pay attention to the caps... there's a reason for them. That was originally the whole point of contracts, fulfillments and remedies in case of broken contracts. Seems that companies that deal in software are permitted to break the product and the client is to blame. Strange that. Nowhere nearly as strange as the fact that you seem to think that such things are perfectly fine. Amazing. Nothing short thereof.

Not that I care. It was one more reason why I stopped using XP period. Guess what. Unless they give me a copy of Vista FREE, I don't plan to ever go back either. Hell, since I stopped gaming I've had more spare time than I've been able to waste with a conscious effort :)

Please say..

[wellingtonsteve]

..that they will be more usable than the current 'security tools' we get with IE7 which serve the purpose of securing IE by making it so annoying that no-one wants to use it..

I mean that security bar thing that appears below the address bar for example when you want to download something. "Are you sure you want to download this file? It may contain viruses, malware, zombies, ghosts, or even the mother-in-law amongst other Scary Things (tm)?" YES! Why no "Don't ask me again, I'm smart enough to know what I'm downloading thanks" option....

Ahem, rant over sorry.. But please MS, try harder this time..

Re:Please say..

[ConceptJunkie]

It would be nice if Microsoft's biggest security "feature" is asking the user to confirm any operation that could conceivably cause a problem. Oh, well, at least they can blame the user now... after all HE allowed it.

The one time I tried to use IE7 and MSN search (to look up TV remote control codes) MSN search returned a link that hijacked IE7 to a site trying to play porno movies and because of the constant message boxes claiming "Microsoft" found security problems and should I let it install a "fix" (probably Javascript trying to get me to install malware). The message boxes wouldn't go away and I couldn't even shut down the browser without killing the whole app from the task manager. (By the way, I checked the first several pages of Google's results to see if that fake link showed up, and it wasn't there. MSN is useless, too.)

I would have never in a million years thought that IE7 would be that horrible. It's like it's 1998 all over again. Microsoft does nothing but FAIL. I've been using Firefox (with NoScript, AdBlock+, etc) since it was Phoenix 0.4 or so and I had literally forgotten how horrible IE used to be... and still is. In all those years nothing like that has ever happened to me with Firefox.

I'm convinced Microsoft just needs to give up. They have become completely worthless and literally have nothing else to offer.

More details and ranting if you're interested: http://conceptjunkie.blogspot.com/2008/04/microsoft-needs-to-die.html

Re:Please say..

[Rutulian]

Actually, you can't with Firefox 3. It will detect a looping script and give you the option of stopping it. If you use NoScript, you can block it entirely.

Re:Please say..

[ConceptJunkie]

Maybe you could, but it's never happened to me... even before NoScript came along.

That's the irony about the Web. It started out as a document display technology and eventually morphed into an application platform, taking about 15 years too long and going down too many dead ends on the way. I read somewhere that someone suggested the Web should have simply been X from the start. It surely would have saved them reinventing the wheel a dozen times in the last 20 years, that's for sure.

We've almost come full circle. The browser is _almost_ the OS which runs your applications. In fact, Microsoft's biggest problem was that they hooked the browser directly into the OS (in fact, their problem has always been that they hook everything directly into the OS). ActiveX was just a shortcut to run native code via the Web, and it suffered all the obvious problems from being so. "Hello, world,, run anything you want on my computer. I trust you." Java was better, but it's just too darn bureaucratic. I can't imagine having to actually develop in Java... from everything I've seen it's worse than dealing with the government and insurance companies combined.

So where will it all end up? Starting around 1991, we reverted back some 15 years in UI development and had to go through the 80's again, but in browsers. I figure in another couple years Web apps and native apps will essentially be indistinguishable, especially from the non-techie's point of view. That's not bad except all the good UI standards and conventions developed by Xerox, IBM, Microsoft, Apple backed with decades of research have been almost completely abandoned. I can't even imagine what the average computer experience will be like in 10 years, but if the past 20 is an example, some things will advance more than I could have ever guessed and others will barely change, and it will still take an expert to solve all but the most basic problems.

The term "bleeding edge" was a play on the term "leading edge" but at the rate things change, there is no more "leading edge" any more. With Vista and recent releases of OSX, the "bleeding edge" is the mainstream, and we've come to not only not be surprised that systems aren't even remotely complete when shipped, in fact, we expect a "dot oh" product to be essentially a late alpha. I don't recall what product it was, but it was a "release candidate" and at the same time the release notes said in effect, "but we haven't documented all the features yet because we don't have a firm list of what will be included". That's not a "release candidate" by any definition... not even Microsoft's. That's an alpha release, by the original definitions. But these days (and Google is a perfect example, even though many of their products are very good), most software never really gets out of "beta" any more. There are Google products that were literally labelled "beta" for years. It's always possible there was some legal reason for this, but the idea of a "test version" vs. a "release version" barely exists any more. Often the only distinction is the size of the group of users who have access to it. Microsoft does this, even though they still pretend to adhere to the gigantic monolithic release after years of development apparently because that's the only way they can justify charging people for the same old crap, but shinier and slower. I think the Ubuntu concept works well. They seem to have an attitude of "We'll take what we've got and make sure it installs and works together" every six months. Each release isn't always a huge change, that depends on the state of things like Gnome, KDE or the Linux kernel or who knows what, but this "evolutionary release cycle", where each subsequent upgrade is relatively small, seems to work a whole lot better than Microsoft's "revolutionary release cycle" where it's a major IT undertaking that is so massive most companies these days would rather not bother.

Hmmm... I seem that have digressed a bit.

I only have one comment.....

[zappepcs]

Since IE7 and Vista, I am no longer qualified to comment on the user experience of Windows products. These two products killed off *any* thoughts I might have of using MS products at my personal expense. Still on XP with FF/OOo et al at work. It might^H^H^H^H^H^H will take more to get me to try another MS product than it did to get me to try Ubunutu.

New security tools sounds like a good idea. Hope they do well with that. Everyone has to work to keep the bar high on secure computing development, but I won't be trying it. Yeah, don't bother telling me about how F/OSS has problems too... everything does. I just prefer my problems not be served to me without the lubricant.

I do hope they achieve something good, it will be good for the Internet as a whole.

Re:Good

[MightyMartian]

I certainly hope they make IE8 faster. My (admittedly very anecdotal) experience is that IE7 is an absolute dog on startup and in browsing. There's a real lag there, that Firefox simply does not have.

Sandbox javascript, flash etc ...

[BlueParrot]

There isn't any good reason why the javascript engine should run with the same privileges as the browser, and there certainly isn't any good reason why plugins like flash should have as many privileges as they do. Sandboxing those bits should help a lot.

Re:Sandbox javascript, flash etc ...

[Z34107]

In IE7 on Vista, those bits (and everything you do, actually) are sandboxed. It's called protected mode and like everything well-written and intelligible in life, there's a MSDN article. ~~

If you can get to a Vista machine, boot up Internet Explorer 7. In the bottom-right hand corner, you'll see a "Internet|Protected Mode: On." Internet Explorer, and everything launched in/from IE, run under a low "Integrity Level", which means they only have access to the "Temporary Internet Files\Low" folder and "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\LowRegistry" key.

Any file access is transparently redirected from these points: An ActiveX control trying to create "virus.dll" in "c:\windows\system32" will have it actually created "Temporary Internet Files\Low\C\Windows\System32". (Nothing in this folder is executable.)

Open up task manager. (CTRL+SHIFT+ESC) You'll notice an "ieuser.exe" process - should something need more privileges, like you saving a file to your downloads directory, this process will grant that one action regular, non-admin user privileges. Anything system changing has to pass through an "IEinstal.exe" process, which will trigger a UAC prompt.

My understanding is limited to some Vista beta-era documentation and the MSDN article I linked, but they pretty much sandboxed the entire browser with sub-guest-account privileges. It's relies on some new parts of the Vista kernel (you won't see the same sandboxing on IE7 in XP) but it's still pretty nifty, I think.

So keep using internet exploder 7 'till then, k?

[lastomega7]

We promise you IE8 will be cool.
-MS lackey

PS- Despite what anyone tells you, don't get 'fire fox,' it's probably a virus.

Re:By Neruos

[Kangburra]

Your last statement implies that even though IE was not to blame your computer has still been compromised.

For many years I have been running Linux without any antivirus and my computer has never been compromised.

The most welcome security feature...

[Bwana Geek]

Perhaps the most long-awaited security feature of all, the IE8 team promises that it will immediately uninstall itself if someone mistakenly puts it on their PC.

Re:Security, hah.

[Antique Geekmeister]

And more DRM to wade through. Much of Microsoft's current 'security' development is aimed squarely at DRM and protecting the control by businesses, not at protecting users.

Re:Security.. Thats all Microsoft knows how to upd

[metallic]

I'm a Mac user also and it seems like I install a security update about once a month. OS X is good but it's not that good. Hell, it's a few weeks after details of the huge gaping exploit in ARD was announced and there still isnt a security update. The best you can do is remove ARD.

Re:"Better" security for Activex?

[MichaelTheDrummer]

Typing > will give you >
Typing &lt; will give you <

You have to escape the special html characters. Man I had to preview that 3 times to make sure I had the tags right!

Re:Security.. Thats all Microsoft knows how to upd

[jfim]

No, that's because they batch them in some gigantic 100mb+ update, instead of doing small updates for several applications, which is what Microsoft does.

Seriously, there's no reason why a security update should take several dozens of megabytes. This only ensures that dial up users will not install them and that people are more likely to delay installing patches due to the download time.

Also, most patches on Windows are released every month, on what is called patch Tuesday, which is the second Tuesday of every month. I'm not sure I fully agree with the idea of a fixed patch schedule as it gives the malware authors a one-month window to exploit, although it does give corporate deployments a chance to test patches prior to deployment on a sane schedule.

Re:This is a simple job

[pdusen]

Actually, MS hires some of the best coders in the world. You're just an idiot.

Technically, IE7 is the most secure browser out...

[Toreo asesino]

it's the only one I know that runs with only the following privileges (Vista only)...

"RO to File System"
"RW to user IE temp dir (explicit DENY on execute)"

Everything other browser runs as logged in user I believe.

So even if IE7 gets hosed into the floor, nothing will happen.

That said, it still sucks compared to FireFox 3 in terms of useful functionality, but that's another story.

Re:This is a simple job

[Your.Master]

Right, because only nimrod programmers have bugs in their software.

I thought the same. Microsoft need to learn!

[QJimbo]

Annoying the user seems like a running pattern with anything Microsoft try and make secure.

Windows Live messenger: "This file was a security risk and has been removed", User: "BUT IT WAS AN MP3?!?!"

Windows Vista: *download program* IE7: "Are you sure you want to download?" *click yes... wait...* "File downloaded" *click Run* IE7: "Are you sure you want to run this file?" *click yes* Vista Access Control: "This file is a program and may cause bad things to happen! Are you sure?" User: "ARGH FOR THE THIRD TIME YES I'M SURE"

whatever

[Anonymous Coward]

year after year after year after year after year after year after year......

all we ever hear is how MS is making their next OS/Browser/Apps more secure. Have they ever succeeded? Not once... all I have witnessed is bug patches and more complexity. Its very tiring to hear the same garbage over and over again.... ...and for any site that only runs activex - get with the rest of the world and learn something....

Re:This is a simple job

[Anonymous Coward]

MS hires some of the best coders in the world

Agreed, but they don't know what to do with us. I currently work as an on-site contractor for Microsoft in Redmond.

When left to my own devices, I'm several times as productive as the next best person I've ever met. If they'd let me, I would could our product's defect rate by an order of magnitude in a couple of weeks, but they're too damn afraid of change to let me do that. There's always a new release around the corner, and they're always in "OMG we can't change anything!!1" mode. The only changes they'll approve are cosmetic fixes for things reported by customers, despite the fact that you can't look at 100 lines of code without seeing an obvious bug. It's the least productive environment I've ever seen. I could literally replace 20-30 people in my department and nobody would notice a difference in output level.

p.s. Yes, I am looking for a new job outside Microsoft. I'm fed up with the BS.

Re:Technically, IE7 is the most secure browser out

[cbhacking]

You *can* set up browsers under Linux to have the same types of permissions, using AppArmor or SELinux. It's not OOTB though, and not as easy to approve outside-the-sandbox actions (like saving a downloaded file to a non-temp folder).

It's also worth noting that this feature, called Protected Mode, is not available if UAC is disabled. If you honestly can't stand privilege escalation requests (for things that damn well should have them) then open the Local Security Policy management console (use the Start search, or look under Administrative Tools), find the UAC policy options, and set it enable automatic escalation for Administrators. You're still sort of protected, in that any app that was started as a non-admin will stay non-admin until it requests privilege escalation, but you won't be given a chance to deny that escalation.