Slashdot Mirror
Mercedes To Phase Out Gasoline By 2015
arbitraryaardvark sends in a story a couple of weeks back in Yahoo's Ecogeek blog, reporting that Mercedes will phase out petroleum-powered cars by 2015 (mirror), and notes: "Story is unconfirmed but well sourced." "In less than 7 years, Mercedes-Benz plans to ditch petroleum-powered vehicles from its lineup. Focusing on electric, fuel cell, and biofuels, the company is revving up research in alternative fuel sources and efficiency."
Nobody really gives a damn what fuels their cars, they care about cost and acceptable performance (can I make 70-80 on the freeway, or will I have a top speed of 40). If they can solve the problem of refueling infrastructure and sufficient mileage per refuel, there's no reason why not to go with a non-gas car.
you want this
No matter how we choose to generate power in the future, we have very few options for switching to anything other than gasoline for transporting that power.
Gasoline has a fantastic energy density. A 14 gallon tank of the stuff contains 491.2 kilowatt-hours of energy ($68 in electricity at New York rates), and the gasoline itself only weighs 81 pounds. If you fill up the tank in five minutes, you're transferring power at 7.368 megawatts. Can you imagine what kind of electrical infrastructure you would need to transfer the same power over mere wires?
About the only alternative I can imagine that would be comparable would be to hot-swap whole huge batteries at gas stations.
No, I think we'll be using gasoline, or at least a similar liquid fuel, for quite a while.
At yet, grain commodities dropped significantly the last couple of days. So much for biofuels being the cause of higher food prices.
Biofuel processing plants have been going belly up recently as well, I wonder if there's a connection.
Either way, the population isn't going anywhere (until the pubs cause wwIII), so we should NOT be using food grade arable land to grow biomass for fuel.
There are plenty of weed-like plants which can be used for biomass, one is non-marijuana grade hemp. It's not my fault politicians are so polarized they refuse to act for the good of the country and legalize its cultivation.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
And that refueling infrastructure is exactly why the general public gives a damn about what fuels their cars. One manufacturer phasing out a fuel is only a step in the right direction; we then have to actually get that fuel everywhere. In 2002, there were literally more than half a billion cars out there. That article doesn't give specifics as to the number of gas-powered cars, but with 590 million total there are definitely a lot. The cost to support the current gas refueling infrastructure is only going to hold back building even more infrastructure for alternative fuels.
It's NOT true.
... Will I even be alive when that finally happens? I have hope."
Fraud Alert: This is just a technically ignorant person's blog post. He wrote an attention-grabbing headline, and the Slashdot editor apparently didn't read the entire story.
Even the writer, Jaymi Heimbuch, doesn't believe the heading. Quote: "While car models may be able to run on fuels other than gasoline or diesel, we have yet to find a method of both running and producing vehicles entirely free of fossil fuels. I'm waiting for a mainstream car line that creates renewable fuel, clean-running vehicles out of 100% recycled materials in plants run on 100% renewable, clean power
Electric cars are NOT "clean power". The electricity generation plant uses coal or oil or nuclear fuel, and those are as dirty as before.
Can't any diesel engine run biodisel unmodified? That was my understanding.
I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure you have to swap out your fuel lines and injectors. The engine is the same, though. All told, it's supposedly a very easy conversion to biodiesel.
ZuluPad, the wiki notepad on crack
Plenty of people are already running their Benz on the stuff the local chip-shop would have thrown away. How hard is it to ramp that up a bit?
No sig today...
Perhaps what the OP meant was that as producing corn becomes more profitable, farmers will switch to producing corn instead of other crops, thus creating a scarcity of *those* grains and raising the price of food in general. A big chunk of world already finds it hard to afford food and hence the conclusion of people starving if prices rose further.
Most electric outlets have a 15 or 20 amp breaker. That means on the best of days you're only going to be able to get 1.8 to 2.4 kw or about 2.4 to 3.2 horsepower out of it. Unless your car uses less than an average of 3hp while it's running you're going to have to charge it, or at least your spare battery pack, for a pretty long time to get any range out of it.
There's a huge movement in CA right now of folks using old cooking oil to fuel diesel engines. The bio fuel guys run around to restaurants and pick up their old cooking oil and then process it - without ANY petroleum or other fossil fuels.
The problem is that those companies that collect the old oil for a fee (restaurants pay $$$) are lobbying the CA legislature to make it illegal except for a licensed company to pick up the oil - in effect putting the biofuel guys out of business - or forcing them to buy the old oil from the companies that pickup. These companies are telling the CA legislature that they should be the only ones to pick up old oil because the public's safety is in jeopardy. Of course with enough $$$ the politicians will be on board.
It's amazing how low folks will stoop to save their business.
Oh! The favorite car that the bio fuel guys use is a Mercedes Diesel - unmodified.
Also, the link to HCCI in the story is broken. Use the one here instead.
The discussion about HCCI is written by someone named named Benjamin Jones. He obviously does not have much technical understanding.
Toyota are already selling hybrids and were the first to do it on a significant scale. ;-)
Now those are not as spectacularly "green" as some people think, but they are a good start. This makes Toyota one of the few major brands that have taken the risk of releasing something really new as product (as opposed to waiting until someone else does it and then copying it
C - the footgun of programming languages
...a green push it certainly within their capability, I believe.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz#Innovations
Innovations
The "Safety cage" or "Safety cell" construction with front and rear crumple zones was first developed by Mercedes-Benz in 1951.[25]
Anti-lock brakes (ABS), traction control and airbags in the European market, were Mercedes-Benz innovations. These technologies were introduced in 1978, 1986 and 1980 respectively.
In September 2003, Mercedes-Benz introduced the world's first 7-speed automatic transmission called '7G-Tronic'.
Mercedes-Benz was the first to introduce pre-tensioners to seat belts on the 1981 S-Class. In the event of a crash, a pre-tensioner will tighten the belt instantaneously, preventing the passenger from jerking forward in a crash.
Stability control, brake assist (Press Release) , and many other types of safety equipment were all developed, tested, and implemented into passenger cars--first--by Mercedes-Benz. Mercedes-Benz has not made a large fuss about its innovations and has even licensed them for use by competitors--in the name of improving automobile and passenger safety.
Mercedes M156 engine
Mercedes M156 engine
The most powerful naturally aspirated eight cylinder engine in the world is the Mercedes-AMG, 6208 cc M156 V8 engine. The V8 engine is badged '63 AMG' and replaced the '55 AMG' M113 engine in most models. The M156 engine produces up to 525 bhp (391 kW), and although some models using this engine do have this output (such as the S63 and CL63 AMGs) specific output varies slightly across other models in the range.[26]
The (W211) E320 CDI which has a (VTG) turbocharged, 3.0L V6 common rail diesel engine, set three world endurance records. It covered 100,000 miles (1.6×105 km) in a record time with an average speed of 224.823 km/h (140 mph). Three identical cars did the endurance run (one set above record) and the other two cars set world records for time taken to cover 100,000 km and 50,000 miles (80,000 km) respectively. After all three cars had completed the run their combined distance was 300,000 miles (4.8×105 km) (all records were FIA approved).
Mercedes-Benz's pioneered a system called Pre-Safe which uses radar to detect an imminent crash and prepares the car's safety systems to respond optimally. It also calculates the optimal breaking force required to avoid an accident in emergency situations and makes it immediately available for when the driver depresses the brake pedal. Occupants are also prepared by tightening the seatbelt, closing the sunroof and windows, and moving the seats into the optimal position.
Mercedes Benz is developing a fatigue-detection system that warns the driver when they are displaying signs of micro-sleep (when the eyes stay closed for slightly longer than a natural blinking action). The system will use a variety of data including the individual driving style, the duration of the journey, the time of day and the current traffic situation. Fatigue mostly sets in gradually.[27]
The fastest (production) automatic road car in the world is the Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren at 334 km/h (208 mph). The car was co-developed by DaimlerChrysler and McLaren Cars. The fastest street-legal saloon car in the world is the Mercedes-Benz Brabus (tuned) W211 'E V12' - based on the E-Class saloon.
Which is a perfectly good way to ruin a new diesel engine.
WVO/SVO is great in theory, but once you add modern high pressure common rail or unit injector fuel systems WVO causes nothing but havoc. There are numerous reports of failures on WVO/SVO. Injectors sticking open and burning holes in pistons, etc.
Keep your WVO/SVO for your 80's Benz. The future will be GTL and designer BioD.
I now live in downtown Atlanta without a car, and I miss the days of having one out in the suburbs. Public transportation is good for two reasons: if you can't afford a car or if you don't feel like dealing with traffic. Otherwise, the freedom is too great. If I wasn't paying so much tuition, then a car would definitely be worth it in the city, even with subways and buses.
Wrong on several levels.
First, the math:
491 kilowatt-hours = 0.491 megawatt-hours.
0.491 MWh over 5 minutes = 5.892 MWs of energy.
Second, you are ignoring efficiency:
5.8 MWs of energy is far more than it takes to move a car. Gasoline engines are remarkably ineffecient at converting all that energy into actual power.
Third, and most importantly:
"If it were possible for human beings to digest gasoline, a gallon would contain about 31,000 food calories -- the energy in a gallon of gasoline is equivalent to the energy in about 110 McDonalds hamburgers!"
Soure: http://science.howstuffworks.com/gasoline1.htm
(Okay, so maybe not most importantly, but it's the coolest.)
That's why work is being done on developing second-generation biofuels.
What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
Crops are not renewable. Sooner or later you will exhaust the land and run out of places where you can plant soy, sugar cane, beets, corn, etc. On top of that biofuels carry high risks for food security and air quality. Are you aware of the fact that expansion of sugar cane (and Ethanol derived from it) is posing a real threat to rain forests in Brazil? Farmers who see enormous profit in sugar cane are giving up other crops and elininating rain forest. This is already happening in one country and what makes you think it does not spread around the world? Farmers in mid-West are already profiting from E85 expansion in the US. This impacts our food prices because corn that can be fed to cattle is being used for other purposes.
You cannot simply unplug gas and start using biodiesels everywhere. A chain reaction (depletion of rain forests, rising food prices, etc.) has started already. It will be hilarious if we start running out of food in order to support our driving habits.
Somehow, I don't think you've actually be in a city that has decent subways or trains before. When you can get a pass that means just hopping on a subway that will go within a few blocks of just about anywhere you'd want to go, they become much more convenient than cars or busses. Especially when considering the parking situation that we have here in Seattle. No more waiting at stop lights or for pedestrians. No looking (or paying) for the parking that you had to circle the block for fifteen minutes just to get. I won't even talk about the cost of my Capitol Hill parking space.
You don't sound like a person who knows a thing or two about farming. Jumping into "we can make it from corn" bandwagon is no better than relying only on oil for all engergy needs because crops are not renewable. See my other posts under the partent.
Sooner or later you will run out of land and resources. You will have to make choices between growing crops for food or growing crops for fuel. This is happening in Brazil already! Farmers choose to cut down rain forest and in order to grow crops for Ethanol production. Do you not see how stupid this is? You damage rain forest and stop food production in order to make fuel. This makes little sense especially to people who do not have luxury of having a grilled chicken every day. While millions of people starve, we turn food crops into fuel...
Yes, biofuels are a great idea as long as we can diversify them correctly. =
Except you can't continue to grow corn year after year. Crop rotation requires at least three crops to be effective; typically corn, soybeans, and wheat. While you can get away with breaking the cycle for a few years, ultimately the other crops are still going to find their way on to the land, even if they are less profitable.
Okay, well, first let's look at some common outlets in the US. Your standard NEMA 5-15R has a 15A breaker and, while there's a nominal delivery voltage of 120V, you'll probably get 117V or so out of it. That's 1.755kW. Kitchen outlets generally have a 20A breaker, so 2.34kW. The NEMA TT-30R, the standard low-power RV outlet, is also a nominal 120V, so assuming 117V still, that's 3.51kW. Dryer outlets are split-phase, either NEMA 10-30R or 14-30R (the 14-30 ones are properly grounded; the 10-30s are grounded through the neutral). They're able to feed a nominal 240V (we'll say 234V) at 30A. That's 7.02kW The higher power equivalents, the 10-50R and 14-50R, are the standards for range outlets. The 14-50R is also the standard high-power RV socket. This is 11.7kW.
Okay, so these are the outlets found all across the country. The RV ones are especially interesting, since RV parks can often be found in even the most remote places, and I'm sure your average RV park owner would love a new revenue stream, what with RV travel down due to high gas prices. Now, let's take an upcoming EV like the Aptera Typ-1e -- 2+1 seating, 120 miles@55mph, 70 miles@80mph, 90mph top speed, 0-60 in Oahu. They use 60kW PosiCharge fast chargers by Aerovironment. Aerovironment already makes them as big as 250kW.
To get an idea of what sort of driving distances you can get in a given length of time and how those compare to gasoline, there's always this convenient spreadsheet. Adjust the EV pararmeters to those of the EV of your liking. Explanations of the formulae and parameters are at the bottom.
Oh, and as for Mercedes? Who wants to bet that they'll make one or two EV/PHEVs, one fuel cell vehicle, and do the cheap/lazy thing and simply make all of the rest of their vehicles flex-fuel capable?
The only way I would lionize Dick Cheney would be while he was still alive, and it would involve actual lions.
Ack, the post got messed up... I should have previewed. Replace that second paragraph with:
Okay, so these are the outlets found all across the country. The RV ones are especially interesting, since RV parks can often be found in even the most remote places, and I'm sure your average RV park owner would love a new revenue stream, what with RV travel down due to high gas prices. Now, let's take an upcoming EV like the Aptera Typ-1e -- 2+1 seating, 120 miles@55mph, 70 miles@80mph, 90mph top speed, 0-60 in under 10 sec, 15.9 cubic feet of cargo space, etc for $27k. It has a 10kWh battery pack. Charger efficiency isn't known, but 93% or so is standard for slow charging (i.e., charging in more than half an hour or so). Li-ion batteries range from 96% (fast charging) to 99.9% (trickle charging) efficiency. Let's say 99%. Let's ignore the slowdown at the end, since that's more significant with .
For ~2 hours worth of moderate speed driving or ~1 hour of high-speed driving, and assuming an appropriate onboard charger, you get the following charge times:
NEMA 5-15R (15A): 6.2h
NEMA 5-15R (20A): 4.6h
NEMA TT-30R: 3.1h
NEMA 10-30R or 14-30R: 1.5h
NEMA 10-50R or 14-50R: 0.92h
Now, these are with standard outlets that you can already find across the country. Thanks to modern batteries and chargers, fast charging is not only possible, but already available in places, such as Oahu. They use 60kW PosiCharge fast chargers by Aerovironment. Aerovironment already makes them as big as 250kW.
The only way I would lionize Dick Cheney would be while he was still alive, and it would involve actual lions.
Error in your logic: Electricity has already undergone Carnot losses. Gasoline hasn't. The average ICE is only about 20% efficient. The average li-ion EV is about 80% efficient when fed already-generated electricity.
Don't take my word for it. Take the word of a peer-reviewed study from PNL conducted for the DOE. We already have enough electric infrastructure for 84% of our existing vehicle fleet to switch. Of course, not as though it's somehow *harder* to build electric infrastructure than develop new oil fields and pipelines. Just the opposite, actually -- that's largely why electricity is so much cheaper per joule.
The only way I would lionize Dick Cheney would be while he was still alive, and it would involve actual lions.
Ya there is a station in Arcata, Ca. that sells/sold B99. I've used it in my dually and it runs great, just loose a few mpg due to the lower btu's.
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
Just ignoring all of your erroneous stereotypes (addressed in earlier posts, not worth a repeated debunking), an electric motor is generally only 85-90% efficient in a normal drivecycle. If the vehicle is averaging, say, 25kW, that's still ~3kW of heat -- the output of two large plug-in portable space heaters.
The only way I would lionize Dick Cheney would be while he was still alive, and it would involve actual lions.
Of course what people tend to forget is that you can make gasoline from a lot of non petroleum sources including water and air. The only thing that prevents it is cost.
Exactly. It's not the unavailability of all of the fuel that is the issue, but how much it will cost, and more importantly how quickly that cost will increase. This rate of increase will determine whether we will be able to actually continue with this easy motoring way of life, or not. The higher the rate of increase, the less probability that we will be able to maintain the current way of doing things.
The cheapness of the fuel *is* the issue. Right now, diesel and gasoline still give the biggest bang for the buck.
See these (now quite well known) sites for more info: Kunstler and The Oil Drum
Must be different brands for different markets then - they're M-B in at least some of Europe. Try Googling for "actros":
http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/germany/mpc/mpc_germany_website/de/home_mpc/trucks/home/products/new_trucks/actros.html
Historically M-B didn't own the "Daimler" name in all markets - in the UK Daimler was an independent company unrelated to Daimler-Benz, then part of Jaguar, which got bought by Ford, and then sold back before Tata bought Jaguar:
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/08/22/daimler-deals-with-ford-to-get-its-name-back/
Obligatory Wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler_Motor_Company
The NSW and Vic State Gov'ts (Australia) have pissed off everyone with automated toll roads, but they still did it, and they're both still in office (for now).
These automated toll roads were created to relieve congestion, not reduce car use, but in a couple of cases (Lane Cove Tunnel, Cross City Tunnel) they made the congestion on existing roads even worse, because the toll companies were allowed to reduce lanes and make changes to existing roads to force people onto the toll roads where the profit$ are.
Of course the reason these governments are still in office is because the only credible alternative to them is even worse.
If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
The site is Flash, so I can't give you a direct link but check out the Triac.
80 mpg max, 100 mile range. Five hours to go from flat battery to full charge. And they're $20k - slightly cheaper than an A package Prius.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
My impression has been that Ford are actually quite good in quality, but they also make cars overseas. The Focus (as you said) and the Mondeos etc. that get made in the UK are probably quite good. As for the other US cars, the ones that aren't as popular outside the US, they do seem a bit on the cheap side.
Average miles traveled per passenger car in 2006 = 12,427
12,427 / 365 = 34
I've no idea what the distribution curve looks like but there's a big market for bicycles it seems.
i wish i could stop
For what it's worth, my BMW was built in South Carolina, and the quality is identical to the previous one built at the Motorsport factory in Germany, which is to say pretty damn good.
The Taurus is a wholly incompetent car. I shudder to think that it was built in 2007.
Mod here, therefore Anonymous. I worked on the redesign of the Taurus back in 2005. The funniest part of your comment is the fact that the suspension of the Taurus is made by the same company that makes the suspension of your BMW. Here is the company website.