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Two Powerful Blows Against Air Pollution Controls

The NYTimes reports from Washington on two separate actions on Friday that, between them, have halted Bush administration clean-air initiatives in their tracks. The current administration is no favorite of environmental groups, but these groups sided with the administration in a court case brought by the utility companies. On Friday an appeals court threw out the EPA's Clean Air Interstate Rule, established in 2005. The court ruled that the EPA had exceeded its authority when it established that rule, which set new requirements for major pollutants. According to the article, even the utilities were appalled to see the rule completely gutted; their objections had been narrower. Here is a podcast with the reporter (MP3) giving some background on the ruling. The second major blow to clean-air efforts came later in the day on Friday. Quoting: "...the EPA chief rejected any obligation to regulate heat-trapping gases like carbon dioxide under existing law, saying that to do so would involve an 'unprecedented expansion' of the agency's authority that would have 'a profound effect on virtually every sector of the economy,' touching 'every household in the land.'... In effect, Mr. Johnson was simultaneously publishing the policy analysis of his scientific and legal experts and repudiating its conclusions."

33 of 411 comments (clear)

  1. Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by zenmaster666 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I think I will make the best of this, take my HUMMER out for a ride.

    1. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by MacDork · · Score: 5, Funny

      I've heard of karma whoring, but karma hedging?

    2. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But on a more serious note.. I feel this administration has ruined out economy and now its after our environment.

      Yes... it was simply inhuman, the way the B*sh administration ruthlessly and systematically forced so many innocent people to buy Hummers and drive them around all day long.

    3. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by techsoldaten · · Score: 5, Informative

      I had my accountant do the math...

      Since Hummers were classifed as light trucks in 2003 by the Bush administration, I could get a write off for my business far in excess of what I could get for a car. Having one would have saved about $12k in taxes the first 2 years I owned it.

      Of course, the additional amount I would have paid in gas would have offset that figure considerably. How much, I don't know, I bike wherever I can.

      M

    4. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by fishbowl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >The same fucktards that said - by the year 2000, folks! - we'd be eating each other to survive and predicted a global ice age during the 70s
      >are the same fucktards behind global warming.

      Cite please?

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    5. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by Kingrames · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Technically you're not far from the truth - Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy allowed (among other things) all business owners to purchase a $100,000 hummer h2 and write it off completely.

      That could, in a sense, be considered forcing people to drive them if it was the only affordable option.

      --
      If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
    6. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by Cairnarvon · · Score: 5, Informative

      Common anti-environmentalist talking point, and pretty much completely made up. A single unsubstantiated claim by some reporter in the '70s was dug up and seized on as ``the opinion of every climate scientist at the time''.
      A straw man, nothing more.

    7. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by 680x0 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hmmm... I wonder if anyone has won just such a Nobel Prize recently.

    8. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 4, Informative
      Funny, you could always write off the purchase work vehicles. The rule that changed was that instead of taking those write-offs over 5 years, you could do it in one.

      .
      You do know what write-off means, right? It means you can claim the expense as a business expense, so you purchase it with pre-tax dollars. It's not like you get it free, or get a dollar for dollar tax credit; at best, you maybe save 35%, tops (if a corporation; if an LLC or sole-prop then you probably saved 15-20%).

      And of course you could only write off what you actually SPENT in that year on the vehicle, meaning if you made payments for 5 years, you still had a 5 year payment plan. It was only if you bought it in one year could you deduct the expense in one lump sum.

      Seems to me to be a much better way to do things - if a business pays $100,000 for business equipment, I'm all for them being able to claim the entire $100,000 amount as an expense in one year (decreasing their net income), rather than forcing them to spread the expense out over 5 or 7 tax years.

      If that's forcing people to buy a Hummer, I'd like to meet those people. They still had to have the $100,000 up front to purchase it...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    9. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Don't kid yourself. This administration has encouraged waste and has laughed at pollution controls. A classic example was the recent statement by Bush at the G8 meeting in Japan.

      "Goodbye from the world's biggest polluter" --Pres. George W. Bush

      I am not making this up. The dickhead really said this.

      Cheney has censored climate change reports and Bush has pressured the EPA to not regulate greenhouse gases. This administration isn't just ignoring the issue of climate change. It is actively working against it. I think this administration thinks that the only way to salvage the economy after its disastrous policies is to put the US economy on an equal footing with the Chinese. And the only way he thinks that he can do that is to have the same pollution controls as the Chinese.

    10. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by easyTree · · Score: 4, Funny

      Let's take a poll and treat the result as conclusive. 'Cause that's all that matters. The physical processes underway don't matter. If we can have a popularity-contest say it's not happening, then it's not. There's no place for scientists using The Scientific Method to try to understand these physical processes... If we want hummers and cowboy hats, we can bribe the media to make the earth stop doing what it's doing. After all, everyone's entitled to their opinion, arent' they? Just because you have scientific evidence, doesn't mean you can make me or my countrymen believe it if we don't want to. Yee-haw! If I want to help destroy the climate for everyone, I'm entitled to. You do your thing, I'll do mine.. endless stream of stupdity continues..

    11. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But, the max write-off used to be MUCH smaller at $25K. The point is that by upping the max to $100K, lots of doctors and lawyers went out and bought Hummers on the tax payers' dime.

      If that's forcing people to buy a Hummer, I'd like to meet those people. They still had to have the $100,000 up front to purchase it...

      Next time you're getting your prostate fingered, say "hi" to one of the beneficiaries. I imagine that there are a lot of upper-class professionals with $100K to drop on a car if they know it's free money come tax time. IANAAccountant, so please explain how this isn't a huge incentive/smart business move to buy what was once a lucrative luxury item that the merchant probably wanted already.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    12. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by Stooshie · · Score: 4, Informative

      To be fair he won it for raising awareness, not for proving it.

      --
      America, Home of the Brave. ... .and the Squaw.
    13. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by jcupitt65 · · Score: 4, Informative

      You can read about the history of the 1970s global cooling scare on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_cooling

      Here's Newsweek talking about its own coverage of the issue, and quoting William Connolley (whose website you linked above):

      The point to remember, says Connolley, is that predictions of global cooling never approached the kind of widespread scientific consensus that supports the greenhouse effect today.

      From http://www.newsweek.com/id/72481

      And finally here's Connolley himself:

      Was an imminent Ice Age predicted in the '70's? No. If you can find me a reference saying otherwise, I'll put it here.

      From http://www.wmconnolley.org.uk/sci/iceage/

    14. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by hobo+sapiens · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "the whole CO2 warms the planet nonsense started from a paper written by a britsh climatologist (the name escapes me right now)"

      Oh, well that just settles it, doesn't it?

      Good on you for debunking the greenhouse effect. Your well researched post can now serve as the definitive argument against climate change as proffered by those damn hippie environmentalists. Give yourself a big gold star.

      You know, you could argue against climate change, global warming, etc. But arguing against the Greenhouse effect?

      --
      blah blah blah
    15. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 4, Informative

      The point is that by upping the max to $100K, lots of doctors and lawyers went out and bought Hummers on the tax payers' dime.

      There's a big difference between "tax free" and "on the tax payers' dime". If I pay you under the table for work, then we've cheated the system in that you didn't pay as much in taxes as you owed, but we didn't actively take money out of the system. I'm not defending the situation - I think it's ridiculous - but you're wrong on this part.

      BTW, my wife's a doctor and our family cars are a 2003 minivan and an Oldsmobile. This fat-cat doctor meme needs to die as the unjustified expression of class envy that it is.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    16. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by HRH+King+Lerxst · · Score: 4, Funny

      I don't think H2s cost $100k...more like $50k...and now....I think you can get them for less than a gallon of gas.

      --
      No one got beat up more often than the mimes of the old west!
    17. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by mrraven · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah and it's just a coincidence that the 11 warmest years on record have been in the last 13 years.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071213101419.htm

      Sigh head in the sand deniers may quite literally cause millions of people to die. :(

      --
      Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
    18. Re:Take my Hummer Out for a Ride by ducomputergeek · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, this jump in tax write off caused me and my dad to spent a bunch on money on capital improvements on our family farms. (About 600 acres total). If we had been limited to the $25k per year write off, it would not have been attractive to my old man. He may have lived long enough to see the write off, or maybe not. He's to that age where if the ROI doesn't come back in some form or fashion in
      Including spending about $80k on grain storage bins, 40x90 steel building to store our tractor and equipment (small tractor as we rent the farm to proper farmers, but we keep a small utility tractor mainly because my Dad is retired and the farms is his play toy. But we do use the tractor to spray for weed control along the farm roads, use the dirt scoop to even out the high and low spots, etc..)

      The jump in the write off made it much more attractive to do. Especially since the old man can basically keep all the farm income shielded from taxes for a couple more years. Doesn't sound like much, but it keeps him in a lower tax bracket and that saves several thousand dollars a years.

      But, in the mean time, the contractors who put up the buildings made money, the companies who made the steel buildings got sales, which kept their employees hired and paid.

      We are about to go back into the watermelon business next year. One of the items on the list to buy is a pickup truck so we can haul small loads of watermelons (1 or 2 pallets) from the wearhouse we're building in the city so if an outlet is running low, we can run a fresh shipment out that day. It's not a bad summer time job while I'm in grad school, probably clear $35 - 40k.

      We have a 10 year old Astro Van that could probably manage towing the trailer without a lot of problems, but we're waiting. We figure come december or January (depending if we need the write off this year), dealerships will be cutting hell of a deal on new/used pickups. (probably we'll be looking at used trucks for someone wanting to get rid of theirs at a firesale price.)

      Now I'm not saying there aren't business owners out there who say, "Hey I can write this $100k off and buy a big shiny tow that says 'look at me'." There are. A lot of business owners can be arrogant as hell. Generally it's Type A's that start businesses.

      But we aren't the only ones. I know a lot of small business owners who took advantage of the new tax laws to buy new equipment that otherwise they may not have purchased. Some expanded into new areas and when they did, generally had to hire an extra person or two to keep up.

      People love to point at the flashy business owner (trust me, at lot of these people don't remain in business that long if they are spending $100k on flashy toy that has no practical application what so ever) and then snicker. Mostly out of jealously it seems. Which, if you made $100k and want to buy a hummer, more power to you, uut for everyone of them, there are a lot more successful business owners who go out, use the tax advantage to exactly what it was designed for: buy equipment, expand their business, and continue to add value to the economy.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
  2. Strange logic by mrbluze · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If I get it right, the EPA is allowed to be given authority to do things as long as they have no real effect? Of course the EPA is going to have a profound effect on every sector of the economy. If you curtail CO2 emissions you are basically affecting every step of production delivery and consumption of most goods. That is, after all, the gravity of the situation.

    WTF is the EPA for anyway?

    OTOH this is looking like an episode of Yes Minister, with the approach of overdoing a popular idea to make sure it sinks.

    --
    Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    1. Re:Strange logic by ScrewMaster · · Score: 5, Informative

      To be fair, the EPA is a pretty powerful outfit that has had a significant effect on industry and environment ... whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant. They are not just a band-aid group.

      I work in the petroleum industry, and I'll tell you this: companies that run pipelines and tank farms are generally far more concerned with state Environment agencies. They're a lot tougher than the Feds in many areas.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    2. Re:Strange logic by zippthorne · · Score: 4, Insightful

      uh.. duh?

      If the state agencies were less stringent than the feds, they'd have a hard time justifying their budgets, wouldnt they?

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  3. Maybe it's a chance to redo things by wfstanle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't know. While I am in favor of environmental regulations, the fact that the courts threw out the entire mess might be a blessing in disguise. It will be back to the drawing board and the Bush administration will not have enough time to put new ones into effect. The regulation that the courts threw out probably was filled with loopholes that would let polluters off the hook. Maybe a new (and hopefully environmentally friendly) administration will do it correctly.

  4. Nice submission (NOT) by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here's the announcement:
    (Washington, D.C. - July 11, 2008) Today EPA released an Advance Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (ANPR) soliciting public input on the effects of climate change and the potential ramifications of the Clean Air Act in relation to greenhouse gas emissions.

    And here is the transcript of Johnson's conference call on the release.

    Finally, here is the (588 page PDF) document itself.

    --
    No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
  5. Re:why even try to get anything done right now by east+coast · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yeah, that's the simpleton way to see things and it's all too popular around here. While we're at it, low emissions vehicles still produce emissions. We should just let people go on with whatever they want until a zero emission vehicle is created. After all, what's the point in doing what you can when you can if you can't do it all at once?

    Talk about some serious asshattery.

    --
    Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
  6. 10th amendment. EPA has no authority whatsoever. by JonTurner · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The EPA is basically meaningless. The powers not explicitly granted to the Federal government by the Constitution are reserved to the states, and the people. 10th Amendment to the Constitution. Perhaps the most important Amendment in that it limits the reach of the Federals.

    Unfortunately (for the better part of a century), the Congress has behaved as if there were no restrictions whatsoever on their authority. As if "anything we can dream up, we can do." This is one of those rare times that a federal court seems to understand the Fed (and it's agencies') power is limited.

    And no, "regulation of interstate commerce" clause, so often abused, does not grant this authority; It does not give free reign to the Feds to do anything they wish. Practically speaking, the Framers of the Constitution would not construct a careful balance of power, then undo it all with one clause.

  7. Re:So what is the problem? by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Informative

    Not so fast. Mexico has no environmental controls of any consequence, and the effluent from their power production and manufacturing plants does affect us. Try living downwind from a Mexican power plant.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  8. Re:Red Herring by Monsuco · · Score: 4, Informative

    (Halliburton is now headquartered in Dubai, and deals equally with Euros and trades on the Dubai exchange).

    Partially true. Halliburton's primary headquarters is located Huston, they recently opened a secondary headquarters in Dubai. This makes sense since they have several business interest there. They also have offices in Anchorage, Denver, and a number of other cities scattered through the USA.

  9. You're wrong on the 10th Amendment by OakLEE · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not actively disagreeing with you, but your reading of the 10th Amendment is expressly contradictory of the way courts have read it. For most of the Modern Jurisprudential (post-Lochner) Era, the Supreme Court's interpretation of the 10th Amendment has been the following:

    The Tenth Amendment was intended to confirm the understanding of the people at the time the Constitution was adopted, that powers not granted to the United States were reserved to the States or to the people. It added nothing to the instrument as originally ratified.

    United States v. Sprague, 282 U.S. 716, 733 (1931).

    Thus in effect the 10th Amendment is a nullity in terms of its scope and power. There have been attempts to revive the 10th Amendment as a restriction on the Commerce Power--some as recently at the 1970s--but the Court has been quite divided over whether it wants to do this. There's some interesting reading on the subject here.

    --
    The sun beams down on a brand new day, No more welfare tax to pay, Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light...
  10. OK, so we don't always have it right. by Scott+Wood · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The point is, we should try to have as little impact on our environment as possible, since we've shown ourselves to be clueless as to the actual effects of what we've already done.

  11. You're reading the Clause Wrong by OakLEE · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; [emphasis added]

    This clause is commonly referred to as the Tax and Spend Clause and has been commonly read to give Congress the power to tax and spend for the general welfare, not to regulate for the general welfare. Thus, if Congress wanted to tax pollution for the general welfare, it could. This specific clause does not give Congress the power to regulate pollution for the general welfare. Congress has no general police power.

    If you want to know more about the history and interpretation of the clause, there is some excellent reading here.

    --
    The sun beams down on a brand new day, No more welfare tax to pay, Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light...
  12. Uh... Stop modding this informative! by BruceCage · · Score: 5, Informative

    The parent is so far off base it's not even funny. Just take a look at the website the photo of the National Geographic Magazine was located at. (here's the page for the November, 1976 edition). Here's a summary of the website by the way:

    The purpose of this page is to provide a counter to the mythology that "journals were stuffed full of articles predicting an imminent ice age in the '70's". [...] Was an imminent Ice Age predicted in the '70's? No

    --
    Perfect is the enemy of done.
  13. Re:Oh No... MORE CO2 by Ihlosi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Do you know that there's something perfectly natural that eats up CO2? They are called p-l-a-n-t-s.

    Yep. And where does most of this magic happen ? In Earth's oceans. Which we're about to make a lot less hospitable for life through acidification (ironically, mostly through CO2) and overfertilization.

    It almost seems as if this earth were designed in such a way that we couldn't mess it up.

    We can't mess it up for life in general, but we sure as heck can mess it up for us. And, believe it or not, there are some people who might want to see mankind live and prosper for another couple of ten thousand years, at least.