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Amazonian Tribe Has No Word To Express Numbers

Posted by kdawson on from the how-many-fingers dept.

In 2004 we discussed the Piraha, a tribe in the Amazon, when a study appeared characterizing their language as a "one, two, many" language. Now reader mu22le informs us of a new study of the Piraha pointing to the possibility that they use no number words at all. Instead they seem to use the word formerly thought to mean "two" to represent a quantity of 5 or 6, and the "one" word for anything from 1 to 4. The language has about 300 native speakers. "The study... offers evidence that number words are a concept invented by human cultures as they are needed, and not an inherent part of language, Gibson said."

60 of 482 comments (clear)

  1. English Language by mrbluze · · Score: 5, Funny

    Has no word to express.. uhhmm... forgot what it's called now.

    --
    Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    1. Re:English Language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      1-4. Sell tribe new number words
      5-6. ....
      ???. Profit?

    2. Re:English Language by History's+Coming+To · · Score: 4, Interesting

      One of the Nepalese dialects has a different word for each number up to one hundred....from their point of view, and using this logic, the English speaking world is very backward indeed, we only have words for numbers up to twelve, and then we start repeating ourselves. (Linguistically fifteen=five-and-ten etc. I'm not getting into an argument about 11 and 12 ;))

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  2. Please forgive me for this one! by pimpimpim · · Score: 5, Funny

    ??? Have no words for numbers
    ???
    ???
    ??? Profit!

    --
    molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
  3. Hm... by archeopterix · · Score: 4, Funny

    The language has about 300 native speakers.

    Shouldn't it be "a large number, but not five or six" speakers?

    1. Re:Hm... by clone53421 · · Score: 5, Funny

      ...and they were first clued in on this number system when they asked how many people were in their tribe and the answer was "two"...

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
    2. Re:Hm... by ari_j · · Score: 4, Funny

      In this tribe, anything less than a fivesome is equivalent to masturbation.

  4. Few, many, Lots by Tom90deg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seems that what they're calling "Numbers" are the same as our quantity descriptors. Small number, medium number, and large number. Seems reasonable, I'm no anthropologist, but I think that numbers really start when you have a lot of trade going on, when you have to KNOW that 5 ears of corn is worth 1 basket of peas.

    1. Re:Few, many, Lots by otacon · · Score: 5, Funny

      Sir I don't know where you do your trading, but I can get you 2 baskets of peas for 5 ears of corn.

      --
      In a world of acronyms, the words are the real victims.
    2. Re:Few, many, Lots by digitalchinky · · Score: 4, Funny

      How many hogs heads for one of those naked Amazonian tribal chicks?

  5. numbers probably came from by FudRucker · · Score: 4, Interesting

    society's that use currency/money, rather than hunter/gatherers...

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    1. Re:numbers probably came from by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      IAAHTNL (I am a highly trained ninja linguist) and I'd just like to say that Piraha is quite alien in general. From the point of view of the Piraha, all other human languages, whether spoken by city-dwellers or nomads, are pretty much the same.

      That is, they MIGHT say that, if Piraha culture had any use for abstract concepts and stuff they couldn't see.

  6. fantastic by jacquesm · · Score: 5, Funny

    then there's also no way to collect taxes. I should move...

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    1. Re:fantastic by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Funny

      You probably have to pay a little for every lot you made. With "little" and "lot" being defined by the guy who comes to get it, assisted by two large guys with mean looking clubs.

      You see, the world isn't so different after all.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:fantastic by jacquesm · · Score: 4, Funny

      don't bring a club to a gunfight ;)

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      MP3 Search Engine
    3. Re:fantastic by VorpalRodent · · Score: 4, Funny

      When you say "two large guys", are you referring to "two" as a native English speaker would understand it, or "two" as one of the Piraha would understand it?
      Two guys is reasonable to take on (perhaps), if I have the larger club. 10-12, on the other hand, is quite the tax collection envoy.

      --
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  7. Words are made up as they are needed by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When numbers play no role because what you need is either abundant or nonexistant, i.e. "there" or "not there", you have no need to invent a word for it. What matters is whether there is enough or not enough. And appearantly the "a little" "a little more" "much more" separation works sufficiently.

    The best example is the omnipresent claim that Inuit have dozens of words for snow. Or Ferengi having a few for rain, but none for "crunchy". What matters is the context you're living in. I dare say that the need for numbers stems either from the needs of trade, administration or simply the urge to show off. And even for that, the basic system of "one, few, many" works out quite ok until the system and your "tribe" reaches a certain size.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Words are made up as they are needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_language#Words_for_snow

    2. Re:Words are made up as they are needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      But it seems like they have that to some extent. If they have a "range" that indicates small/medium/large, then they're still counting. They just don't have a word for the specific total.

      If they know that "this many" units of food was enough to feed them last time, then "this many" units of food will likely serve that purpose next time.

      If the size of the group grows, then they need "this many" plus "some more". And that "some more" will then be wrapped into "this many" the following year.

    3. Re:Words are made up as they are needed by WingedHorse · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mod parent up. I'm tired of seeing this "Inuits have many words for snow" myth constantly when it doesn't hold true.

      --
      Fine print: I work in internet advertising.
    4. Re:Words are made up as they are needed by fireboy1919 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The best example is the omnipresent claim that Inuit have dozens of words for snow.

      Actually, that's not a very good example at all. The main reason people say that is because Inuit is a polysynthetic language, which blurs the line between word and sentence.

      You also have to consider that the guy who made the claim actually used as his examples any reference to frozen water in the language...even if it really didn't refer to the powdery white stuff. If he didn't know English, and were making a similar claim, he'd say that at least ice, sleet, hail, snow, blizzard, and glacier are all words for snow.

      Sometimes, even if you interact with it a lot, one word is enough. Sometimes, also, context plays a big part in defining the language, so you don't need as many words to convey the message (and this is *absolutely true* of a polysynthetic language).

      Quite frankly, I have seen no conclusive evidence that quantity or quality of words are directly tied to the cultures from which they come. Sometimes a word will come into existence when there is little need (example: defenestration), and sometimes people will *badly* adapt an existing word to mean something new rather than creating a new, better word to fill the gap (example: usages of the word "perfect" in different domains). This tribe may be different, but that might make them the exception, rather than the rule.

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      Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
    5. Re:Words are made up as they are needed by russotto · · Score: 4, Informative

      I would like to defenestrate most politicians via defenestration.

      Which is, in fact, the origin of the word (though obviously it was coined from Latin roots). Look up "Defenestration of Prague".

  8. Without numbers... by mongoose(!no) · · Score: 4, Funny

    How do they express IP addresses?

    1. Re:Without numbers... by ArmyOfAardvarks · · Score: 5, Funny

      The use the WingDings font.

    2. Re:Without numbers... by pcaylor · · Score: 5, Funny

      Here's their assigned IPv4 network range:

      many.many.many.many/small

      They are nowhere using it up, so thankfully they have no plans to migrate to IPv6. (Which is a good thing because if I tried this joke with an IPv6 address, it would probably trigger the lameness filter.)

  9. Oblig. by dudeinthedark · · Score: 5, Funny

    How do they indicate successful termination of their C programs?

  10. Lessons from a Farmboy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So, I grew up on a Bushveld Farm in Africa.

    And, as one does on farms in the raw, one must maintain a system of control... over baboons.

    Experience taught the farmers how to deal with baboons, as a necessity towards having a harvest- baboons are quite destructive you see.

    The first method is by catching one using the 'pumpkin' trick. Quite easy:
    Tie down a pumkin, make a hole in it just big enough for a baboon hand to slip in and wait.
    The baboon will come along and stick his hand into the pumpkin, grab a handful and then try to remove his hand... but as an empty hand can go in, the clenched fist cannot get out... baboon does not want to let go... and is therefore stuck. Then you paint the fellow white, and let it go. The returning baboon will scare the living daylights out of his tribe and they will disappear for a while.

    The other method... well... shoot a couple and the farm will be avoided for a LONG time.

    It is not as easy as one would think to hunt baboons, firstly, as they have very effective watch..err.. watchmen (Bobejaan-brandwag) who will sound the alarm as soon as they spot people with guns. The trick is as follows (works for Maize fields):

    If one man walks into the field, and hides, the baboons stay away.
    If two goes in, and one comes out, they stay away.
    If three goes in and two comes out... they stay away...
    But if four goes in and three comes out... they seem to think that many went in and many left... all right to plunder. (ok, know it should be 'feed', but we live in a relative universe!)

    We used to tease and say "1-2-many" is how baboons count. So, imagine my puzzlement when I saw that there are... well... humans living by a similar system!

    Here we are wielding the Power of the Universe (maths) as if it is nothing... and others are still learning how to count!

    Probably our ability and need to express numbers came from... capitalism :-)

    Dammit... finding 'good' in capitalism is painful!
    Completely clashes with my view utopian socialism :-(

    1. Re:Lessons from a Farmboy by Per+Wigren · · Score: 4, Funny

      We used to tease and say "1-2-many" is how baboons count

      Maybe they are good at relational database modeling then!

      --
      My other account has a 3-digit UID.
    2. Re:Lessons from a Farmboy by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If I might come in with a computing/neural perspective...

      I think that baboons counting 1/2/many is an indicator of the difficulties with bioneural networks: As fundamentally analog systems, they can't subdivide values finely and retain accuracy for any length of time. Thus, they can store 0/2, 1/2 and 2/2 over time, but for more than that they just set an "overflow bit:" there's a lot of 'em.

      You can observe the same thing in humans. Look at your mouse cursor, right now - is it on the left or right half of the screen? Obvious. Which third? Easy enough. Which fourth? A little harder. You couldn't really tell me which tenth it's on without measuring. It gets really difficult because your brain's analog systems have difficulty accurately dividing something up that finely.

      From that perspective, I think that counting (which implies an increasingly accurate absolute reference for "one" as the max rises) was something born of necessity, because brains are bad at absolute comparisons. They're really good at comparing short-term differentials (there's an edge here, this texture is different, there are more hunters now than immediately before), but they drift almost without bound over time - thus the baboon's arithmetic fudges that "many - many = zero." It's great for adaptability, but bad for being able to hold more than a few single-digit numbers in your head.

    3. Re:Lessons from a Farmboy by anonymousbob22 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      What also may be happening here is the baboon sees it as "a group of people goes in" and "a group of people goes out". one - one = zero. It's a reasonable assumption to make that the group would stay together rather than split up.

    4. Re:Lessons from a Farmboy by 19061969 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      An extremely interesting post. If I had mod points left, I would give you some.

      I saw something similar on TV a while ago. Some African hunters needing water would do this trick only using a small hole between some large rocks. The baboon would be captured because they wouldn't want to release the stone before the man got hold of them. The man would then tie up the baboon and feed it salt until the baboon was incredibly thirsty. Then, with the baboon on a leash, the man would untie it and the creature would go straight to the nearest place with water which baboons would not normally do.

      --
      bang goes my karma... again...
  11. Another possibility... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It is a general property of people that the most objects they can generally count in a single glance is around 5. The most things a typical person can easily remember in the short term is seven.

    Maybe the "one" word means "I can easily commit the scene to memory at a glance", meaning that the scene has a few easily remembered objects in it.

    The "two" word might mean "yes I can remember that scene, but I have to concentrate to do it". Typically that would mean the scene has 5-6 items.

    The "many" word might mean "no I cannot easily remember the number and arrangement of objects in that scene"

    In other words the word used depends on the mental effort required.

  12. It's the "objects", stupid by pieterh · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The previous study had the same basic flaw: they asked the Piraha to count objects that they never normally had to deal with (it was batteries, I think).

    What westerners often forget is that many cultures have different numbering systems for different types of things.

    If they asked instead, "how many children do you have", or "how many people are there in that hut", they would most likely discover (shock! horror!) that the Piraha count people exactly as you or I. (If we know the individuals we can count up to 10 or so, if we don't, we count up to five or six, then switch to "many").

    These experiments look designed to prove something bogus, namely that counting is not an innate skill.

    --
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    1. Re:It's the "objects", stupid by taubz · · Score: 4, Informative

      As I recall (I was at a talk by one of the principal investigators), the flaws were not so obvious as to use batteries. I think they might have even asked them to count their own family members. If anything it was probably not what was counted but the task of counting which might have been both unfamiliar and potentially culturally sensitive.

      But there are other interesting things (claimed) about their language besides a lack of numbers that makes it less surprising that this might also be the case. There was very little recursive structure in the syntax, for instance.

    2. Re:It's the "objects", stupid by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Funny

      With only 300 people, they're probably all closely related, which explains why they might have trouble counting family members. It also explains why they have a word for "5 or 6", doubtless used for fingers and toes.

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      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    3. Re:It's the "objects", stupid by hoggoth · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Boopai, the white men are coming. Remind the six Kaaxai sisters that it is forbidden to utter our sacred number words in front of the outsiders."
      "Yes, Pibaoi, I shall tell them. I will return in 36 minutes, approximately 5 minutes before the outsiders reach the village."
      "Good man, Boopai."

      "Oh, and Boopai, while you are there, get the 113 exchange-beads the sisters owe me from 3 months ago."
      "Yes, Pibaoi, I will."

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
  13. Link b0rked in summary by Von+Helmet · · Score: 5, Funny

    Should be "one, two, many"

    KDawson, you got a link to your own website wrong, on your own website. You n00b.

  14. Imperial system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I heard they have discovered that some ancient tribes in the world are still using imperial measurement. Hard to believe!

  15. Re:Meaning by hostyle · · Score: 5, Funny

    Too many?

    --
    Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.
  16. This is nothing new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Instead they seem to use the word formerly thought to mean "two" to represent a quantity of 5 or 6, and the "one" word for anything from 1 to 4.

    Bartenders and police officers in the US dealing with drunks are very familiar with this method of counting.

  17. But I can count my profit! by Llywelyn · · Score: 5, Funny

    Lots!

    --
    Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
  18. Margret Mead, again? by gentlemen_loser · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As an (undergraduate) trained anthropologist, I am always skeptical of announcements like this. The locals may have skewed Margret Mead's research for her book Coming of Age in Samoa (a very well respected and renowned anthropologist):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_of_Age_in_Samoa

    Additionally, we also have the Eskimo/words for snowflake issue:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow

    The truth is that accurately studying other cultures is difficult. I have not read the original journal article, but I would take this with a grain of salt.

  19. Haha! Second post! by straponego · · Score: 4, Funny

    (in Piraha)

  20. Not surprising. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Quote from the story: "They could learn, but it's not useful in their culture, so they've never picked it up."

    The English language has no word for some Amazon insects. English speakers could learn, but it's not useful in their cultures.

    Two tests: Give the Amazon natives sufficient food and water and safety from other people, and see how long they can comfortably survive in lands where English is spoken.

    Then give native English speakers sufficient food and water and safety from other people, and see how long they can comfortably survive in the Amazon region.

    1. Re:Not surprising. by mrbluze · · Score: 5, Funny

      Do we get to choose which particular English speakers we send there? I've started a list already (*mumblegrumble!@$Fskn*motherinlaw*).

      --
      Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    2. Re:Not surprising. by Lord+Apathy · · Score: 5, Funny

      I see nothing really wrong here. Where I live people routinely give non descriptive meaning to words as numbers. I'm learned not to try to figure it out but just accept it. I mean who really knows what the difference is between a ass-load and a shit-load. Or how much is really in a fuck ton.

      Just smile and nod, that's what I do.

      --

      Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification

    3. Re:Not surprising. by PachmanP · · Score: 5, Funny

      I mean who really knows what the difference is between a ass-load and a shit-load. Or how much is really in a fuck ton.

      Well, to be fair the fuck ton is defined in terms of shit-loads; the shit-load is defined in terms of an ass-load; and the ass-load is defined by a fecal mass stored in a hermetically sealed container in a vault in France. Finally, for reasons no one has found, the fecal mass is changing.

      Anyway my point is that unit confusion is not unreasonable in this case.

      --
      You're thinking small. Why miniaturize the laser, when we could instead enlarge the sharks? -John Searle
    4. Re:Not surprising. by Wilson_6500 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Finally, for reasons no one has found, the fecal mass is changing.

      Shit always gets deeper.

    5. Re:Not surprising. by SageMusings · · Score: 5, Interesting

      An assload is about 85lbs. It is what the old U.S. Army (back in the days of the western expansion) could safely place on a mule or donkey's back for a day of travel without harming it. It was a unit to assist in calculating logistics trains.

      You can hunt around for references. Enjoy.

      --
      -- Posted from my parent's basement
  21. Re:Interesting by SpinyNorman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The latin language does have a word "nulla" for zero/nothing was used in numeric context.

    I think you mean that the roman numeral system doesn't use a zero digit, but this wasn't becuase they had no concept of zero, it was because their numeric system didn't need it. Zero's are only needed in a system such as our where digit value is context specific (i.e. the "1" in "100" means something different than the "1" in "10") - the roman numeric system doesn't work this way.

  22. Different skill sets needed by Nerdposeur · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Two tests: Give the Amazon natives sufficient food and water and safety from other people, and see how long they can comfortably survive in lands where English is spoken.
    Then give native English speakers sufficient food and water and safety from other people, and see how long they can comfortably survive in the Amazon region.

    If you're trying to show that Amazonians aren't inferior to us, I agree. If you're trying to show that they're superior, I disagree.

    Each of us knows what we need to know. Getting "food and water and safety" is the primary task of every individual in a society like that, and you betcha they know a lot about it. We live in a very very specialized society, where a person can spend his whole career getting letters and numbers to appear on a screen correctly and never know where his food comes from.

    Trying to get a programmer to live as an Amazonian is more hazardous than trying to get an Amazonian to live as a programmer, precisely because most of the Amazonian's "job" is "try to stay alive." And it is very hard - I'm sure their life expectancies are shorter than ours. If syntax errors made computers explode into shrapnel, it would be more even.

    1. Re:Different skill sets needed by Miseph · · Score: 5, Funny

      It would also be funnier.

      "Take cover, the rookie is compiling his first code!"

      "We're all gonna die!"

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    2. Re:Different skill sets needed by AP31R0N · · Score: 5, Insightful

      i've wondered sometimes what would happen if we took a gaggle of chimps and removed all predators and ensured a good food supply. Maybe they'd take up painting with berries.

      One of my personal theories is that morality is a luxury and a technology. We can afford to discuss a woman's 'right to choose', because we aren't desperate for members of a hunting or gathering party. We can choose to allow someone we don't like to live another day, because food is plentiful. We can discuss Nietzsche and Nietzsche could afford to BE Nietzsche because food, shelter and security are pretty much handled. People living in gang infested ghettos have to deal with problems like "Will I eat today?" and "Was that a gun shot or a jalopy with a bad engine?". How could they devote time and thought to existentialism when survival is an issue?

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
    3. Re:Different skill sets needed by Nerdposeur · · Score: 5, Funny

      No fee needed - it's under a Destructive Commons License. :)

    4. Re:Different skill sets needed by Opie812 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Check out Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I think you've paraphrased his ideas.

      --
      I'm not a nerd. Nerds are smart.
    5. Re:Different skill sets needed by mrogers · · Score: 5, Funny

      Nah, we'd just write everything in Perl. Pretty much any sequence of characters is a valid Perl program. Don't ask me what it does, but it's a valid program.

    6. Re:Different skill sets needed by spun · · Score: 4, Funny

      The pygmy Bonobo chimps live with fewer predators and more resources than regular chimps. You know what they do with all their spare time? Lots and lots of very dirty primate sex.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    7. Re:Different skill sets needed by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If morality is a luxury, why are some of the poorest societies on Earth also the most religious?

      Probably because morality and religiosity, even if they aren't entirely orthogonal, are most definitely not the same thing.

      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
    8. Re:Different skill sets needed by amRadioHed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      i've wondered sometimes what would happen if we took a gaggle of chimps and removed all predators and ensured a good food supply. Maybe they'd take up painting with berries.

      It's been done, you've just described the zoo down the street from me. I'm not sure if the Chimps have done any painting yet, someone needs to set them up with some brushes and canvas maybe.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
  23. Advanced Mathematics in Elizabethan England by Mark_in_Brazil · · Score: 4, Funny

    Lord Blackadder, a favorite in the court of Queen Elizabeth I, teaches the foul-smelling peasant Baldrick mathematics:

    The lesson

    Transcript:

    Blackadder: Right, Baldrick, let's try again, shall we? This is called adding. If I have two beans, and then I add two more beans, what do I have?
    Baldrick: Some beans.
    Blackadder: Yes...and no. Let's try again, shall we? I have two beans, then I add two more beans. What does that make?
    Baldrick: A very small casserole.
    Blackadder: Baldrick, the ape creatures of the Indus have mastered this. Now try again. One, two, three, four. So how many are there?
    Baldrick: Three
    Blackadder: What?
    Baldrick: And that one.
    Blackadder: Three and that one. So if I add that one to the three what will I have?
    Baldrick: Oh! Some beans.
    Blackadder: Yes. To you Baldrick, the Renaissance was just something that happened to other people wasn't it?

    --
    "It is nice to know that the computer understands the problem. But I would like to understand it too." --Eugene Wigner