First North American OpenMoko/FreeRunners Arrive

holdenkarau writes "The North American OpenMoko FreeRunners are starting to arrive. It would appear that the OpenMoko still has problems with some 3G networks, including AT&T. Although, in my own personal completely unscientific test, 2 out of 3 AT&T SIM cards worked. Check out the unboxing of a complete FreeRunner (along with debug board) and my experience getting the FreeRunner up and running. Or a direct link to the pictures for those of you bored with text. If you feel brave enough to take the plunge, you can buy your own FreeRunner from the OpenMoko store."

Comments

Pictures

[Deltaspectre]

Take them OF the phone, not WITH the phone!

Re:Pictures

[Hannes2000]

now that would be impossible, the neo freerunner comes without a camera.

Re:Pictures

[holdenkarau]

Take them OF the phone, not WITH the phone!

The phone actually has no camera, so the pictures were taken with a kodak digital camera. I'm not very good at takeing pictures I'll admit.

Re:Pictures

[Hannes2000]

okay, I just realized that even if the freerunner had a built-in camera this would be impossible...

Re:Pictures

[HateBreeder]

They were awful. they gave me a headache so i stopped reading through it.

Re:Pictures

[Anonymous Coward]

very blurry...

Re:Pictures

[holdenkarau]

Oh sad. Well you can read the post and then you only have to look at one picture.

Re:Pictures

[Anonymous Coward]

okay, I just realized that even if the freerunner had a built-in camera this would be impossible...

Mirror?

Re:Pictures

[hritcu]

I agree, the pictures are really horrible.

Re:Pictures

[Simonics Zsolt]

Next time use a tripod and the self-timer.

Re:Pictures

[jpellino]

i suspect there is an actual macro button on that camera - it looks like a small flower.

and tilt the unit slightly and you'll stop taking pictures of yourself taking pictures.

unless of course you're the guy in the ebay tea kettle pic...

Re:Pictures

[Anonymous Coward]

http://flickr.com/photos/holdenk/2670185358/

And get a haircut, hippie!

Re:Pictures

[Anonymous Coward]

myspace camera can take pictures of itself in mirror! o_o

Re:Pictures

[mikiN]

Droste claims prior art claims prior art claims prior art claims prior art claims prior ...

Re:Pictures

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not very good at takeing pictures I'll admit.

Sure, you're not good at taking photos. Lots of people aren't. But, you can recognize a crappy one, right? You're not blind? So, here's a free photo tip - throw the junk away. Learn to edit, and people will think you're a better photographer than you are.

Right now, they think you must own a couple of white canes.

Re:Pictures

[Anonymous Coward]

okay, I just realized that even if the freerunner had a built-in camera this would be impossible...

The Freerunner is a USB host. All you need is a webcam with a long enough cable.

American MVNOs?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it works the T-Mobile and AT&T will it work with the MVNOs like Tuyo or Net10?

Re:American MVNOs?

[holdenkarau]

It would make sense for it to work with Tuyo mobile, although I haven't tested it. Looking at howardforums I vaguelly recall there being one or two MVNOs whos sims only work in there phones (I think Net10 & Tracfone but I'm not sure).

Re:American MVNOs?

[holdenkarau]

Here is the link I was looking for: http://howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=824482 For the most part it looks like they should work, but *shrugs*

500

[Anonymous Coward]

http://us.direct.openmoko.com/

Status: 500 Internal Server Error Content-Type: text/html
500 Internal Server Error

Well, they are doing a good job at ripping off the iPhone.

Re:500

[Nos.]

Come to think of it, I'd guess that only U.S. geeks are aware of this "OpenMoko" phone.

You'd be wrong.

Re:500

[slick_rick]

The big difference between this and an iPhone is you can plug nearly any sim-card into a freerunner and it just works. You have to open the case of your iPhone and solder things the last I heard to get equivalent functionality with an iPhone.

Nice troll, BTW.

Re:500

[comm2k]

And plenty of people in Europe - especially Germany ;)

Re:500

[Locutus]

Boy are you out of the loop. This has been in the press for over a year but if you only look at lame sites like windowsdevices.com or the like, you'd surely miss it.

LoB

Re:500

[TooMuchToDo]

Dude! The best part isn't that it can be used anywhere. That's an added feature. The best part is that the platform is completely open!

Re:500

[desertrat_it]

as it says in the article, AT&T has issues with the Freerunner. If you are not on AT&T, it won't be an issue for you.

Re:500

[slick_rick]

Yeah, that was my point. The Freerunner is an unlocked phone, you plug in any SIM card and it just works. I'm not sure why I'm being modded a Troll above, I'm just speaking the truth.

Re:500

[TooMuchToDo]

Ahh! But they are two different things. My Blackberry from T-Mobile is unlocked, but I can't change the OS, although I could write apps for it if I wanted to. Most, if not all GSM phones can be unlocked to work on any other network. No phones (except the Freerunner to my knowledge) provide open source access to the OS.

Re:500

[TheRaven64]

The EU launch was a little while ago. I know one of the European distributors, and he sold out from pre-orders and is waiting for his next shipment to arrive.

Re:500

[E IS mC(Square)]

I'm not sure why I'm being modded a Troll above

Welcome to Apple Fanboy world.

Re:500

[vivtho]

No.... FTFA a regular GSM SIM card will work just fine. It's the AT&T 3G SIM cards that don't work.... well 2 out of 3 of them at least.

Re:500

[blackjackshellac]

so, let me get this straight, because openmoko comes out with an open phone, they are ripping off the iPhone, a closed device from a notoriously closed source company. The iPhone is nice eye candy, but it's useless to me because of the fact that one cannot do anything with it, and that you're forced to choose whatever provider that apple deems worthy.

Go away little apple fanboy.

I was about to order one

[jacquesm]

When I realized it did not have a camera. While a hackable phone has immense appeal having to lug around a second phone or camera is really too much a of a hassle. Oh well, we'll just wait for release II I guess.

Re:I was about to order one

[gblfxt]

most mobile phone cameras suck anyway, i dont know why you would want to use a phone instead of a camera.

Re:I was about to order one

[Simonics Zsolt]

They are "good enough" for a lot of things.

Re:I was about to order one

[gblfxt]

sorry, come from a linux background where we prefer one thing to do its job well, in this case, make phone calls. as opposed to making all things "multimedia extravaganzas!" there is always windows mobile and iphone for you to check out.

Re:I was about to order one

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, so while I get the appeal of taking crappy little photos with the crappy little lens, how can that be the deciding factor in a phone that has wifi, GPS and a full VGA screen?

Re:I was about to order one

[quantumplacet]

While I certainly don't advocate the inclusion of cameras in cell phones, if the sole purpose of this device is to make phone calls, is a touch screen or linux OS really necessary?

Re:I was about to order one

[lymond01]

Oddly, a lack of a camera may give something like this a push into certain businesses where cameras are not allowed on the premises.

Re:I was about to order one

[Anonymous Coward]

We? Who do you think you are speaking for?

Many of consider our phones to be communication devices. Voice, data, video, whatever. I don't maintain separate computers for email, web browsing, and personal web serving, why should I want to carry separate devices for talking or texting?

Besides- lots of Linux programs are multipurpose to the extreme (is there anything Emacs can't do?).

Re:I was about to order one

[Hannes2000]

I use my phone's camera as a mobile scanner. works perfectly well.

Re:I was about to order one

[Quattro Vezina]

You try and carry around five devices in your pocket. PDA, phone, MP3 player, pocket calculator, camera, etc. You'll need cargo pants.

It's the one reason I haven't bought an N810 yet, and the main reason why my next phone will almost certainly be an HTC Kaiser/TyTN II.

Re:I was about to order one

[Anonymous Coward]

Where is the open source camera that I can hack to read QR codes, calculate angles, show color temperatures, do OCR, and automatically tag pictures based on GPS coordinates? It should also be able to upload pictures to my home box over SSH over any open wireless spot.
It's not a deal breaker, but if possible I would prefer an easy way to carry a couple of easily hackable megapixels around on my body. Carrying more than two gizmos around at a time gets cumbersome, and at least one of those must be able to make calls over GSM.

Re:I was about to order one

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, plastic / cheap fixed optics without a flash...that's my definition of a great camera too.

You're discerning eye for quality means you must at least be president of your photography club at school...good luck.

Re:I was about to order one

[mhall119]

is there anything Emacs can't do?

It's missing a good text editor.

Re:I was about to order one

[gblfxt]

touch screens seem more the norm, not sure yet if i think they are better. linux OS seems more necessary than their closed source cousins OSX and windows.

Re:I was about to order one

[jacquesm]

Because for many quick shots a simple camera is more than enough. I don't need to lug around a reflex for quick snaps, having a very simple cam in the phone is a perfect solution for me. Think of it as the difference between a notepad and a wordprocessor, both have their applications.

Re:I was about to order one

[jacquesm]

you can speak for yourself, thank you.

Re:I was about to order one

[gblfxt]

sorry, was using the royal 'we'

Re:I was about to order one

[Kelvie]

On that note, Emacs is known to be working on the OpenMoko. One of the primary reasons I'm getting one -- a phone that runs Emacs.

Re:I was about to order one

[mikiN]

Passer-by: "What kind of voodoo ritual is that guy over there doing to his phone? It looks as if he's trying to pierce it with multiple little sticks all at once while at the same time poking it with his nose."
Geek: "That's no voodoo, he's running Emacs on his Openmoko. Those sticks are styluses. Look, he just did a double-bucky! Without dropping his phone! Cool!"

Re:I was about to order one

[mustafap]

>my next phone will almost certainly be an HTC Kaiser/TyTN II.

I'm so out of touch. I thought that was a pop group.

Re:I was about to order one

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, dude? I'm shocked that 'no-camera' would be the deal-breaker for you. My Verizon phone is brand new and the camera resolution absolutely sucks. For moments that matter, I'd much prefer having a real digital camera along for the ride.

Re:I was about to order one

[jomiolto]

is there anything Emacs can't do?

It's missing a good text editor.

Don't worry, that is going to be remedied very soon -- I heard that Vim 8 is going to be implemented in elisp on top of Emacs!

Re:I was about to order one

[Anonymous Coward]

You win this thread.

Re:I was about to order one

[jo7hs2]

I totally agree. When I bought my last phone I was observing a lot of trials, and cameraphones were not allowed in several of the courthouses, for security reasons, but also because you could take pictures of the jury. I had to search out a cameraless phone, which forced me to buy an overpriced older model, because it was quite literally the only cameraless phone AT&T had in stock. It wasn't that I needed my phone in the courthouse, but rather that I didn't want to make the walk to my car without it.

Re:I was about to order one

[TheRaven64]

There is a very simple reason for using a phone camera:

I don't carry a camera with me, but I do carry a phone.

If I am in a situation when I want to take a photo, there is absolutely no chance that I will have a camera with me (I don't own one anymore, but even when I did it was usually not with me when I wanted to take pictures). In contrast, my mobile phone is most likely in my pocket. It doesn't take as good photos as a dedicated camera (although in natural light they are quite good), but it does take much better pictures than any other camera I have in my pocket.

Re:I was about to order one

[Bios_Hakr]

Most places that don't allow cameras also don't allow cell phones. Sure, it may just be a blanket policy to exclude cameras, but trying to argue that point with a minimum-wage, cop-wanna-be is like pissing up a rope.

Re:I was about to order one

[Anpheus]

Double bucky? GET OFF MY LAWN!

Back in my day we had quadruple bucky cokebottle commands.

Re:I was about to order one

[mrchaotica]

How do you correct the distortion caused by not aiming the camera exactly (compared to a real flatbed scanner) square-on to the page?

Re:I was about to order one

[jacquesm]

let me correct that for you:

"Sorry, we were using the royal 'we'".

Re:I was about to order one

[Barsteward]

let me correct that for you: "Sorry, one was using the royal 'we'". --

Re:I was about to order one

[Anonymous Coward]

You're forgetting that even the lowliest $100 point & shoot camera beats the hell out of any cell phone camera, picture quality-wise. You don't need to lug an SLR around. It's kind of weird, in fact. They should be doing better. If those P&S makers can cram a useful and pretty sharp optical zoom lens into a very small P&S camera, why are those cell phone makers unable to put even a good-quality fix-focal lens in similar sized package?

Re:I was about to order one

[shutdown -p now]

Why not HTC Touch Pro, then?

Re:I was about to order one

[AP31R0N]

Indeed, esp. in my area (Washington DC). My girlfriend has to leave her phone in her car when she goes to work. Some military folk might find a camera-less phone appealing as well. Personally, i don't care about the camera, the pictures are too shitty to make it worth the effort. That of course might change with newer devices.

What i REALLY want from a phone is for it to not assume i'm a 12 year old girl who has to constantly yammer. i pay almost 50$ a month and have stored up tens of thousands of rollover minutes. i can has a 20$ plan?

Re:I was about to order one

[Ilgaz]

They should concentrate on Bluetooth camera support. E.g. my Nokia 9300 (Symbian S80) doesn't have camera but has some excellent bluetooth camera support so you can use an actual bt enabled camera when you need.

Wonder why they didn't provide Camera as optional add on. (Sony) Ericsson T68 had that kind of wonder. You plug add on camera if you want to take photos, remove and leave it at home if you don't need. Best of both Worlds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Ericsson_T68i

Re:I was about to order one

[Hannes2000]

I just aim well ;-) Works for me, as I do not normally use the "scans" for re-printing or archiving. Can't tell you some good tool for this job, sorry...

Re:I was about to order one

[slartibart]

sorry, come from a linux background where we prefer one thing to do its job well, in this case, make phone calls. as opposed to making all things "multimedia extravaganzas!" there is always windows mobile and iphone for you to check out.

I think you're comparing apples to oranges. In unix, you might as well have programs do one thing well because there's very little cost to installing more programs. It doesn't make your laptop any bigger or heavier.
Separating your phone, camera, mp3 player, portable video player, etc into different devices is ridiculous, no one can carry that many things. People want one device that does it all, for good reason.

Re:I was about to order one

[blackjackshellac]

I for one thank the mythological deities of the human mind for the fact that it has no farkin' camera.

CDMA areas in 4 years?

[bill_mcgonigle]

Lots of North America is only served (or well-served) by CDMA networks. Hopefully, with Verizon embracing LTE for its next network build-out we'll finally have compatible transcontinental coverage. Next, the world.

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[gblfxt]

hopefully CDMA areas are GSM in 4 years!

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[bill_mcgonigle]

hopefully CDMA areas are GSM in 4 years!

Hey, at least click the link I bothered to include. :)

First, 3G GSM adopted the W-CDMA air interface. Now, the traditionally-CDMA carriers are adopting the 3GPP's new IP-based protocol with an OFDM air-interface. The old definitions are just confusing at this point, but the upshot is the standards are converging. LTE allows for integrated fail-over to older tech, so the carriers don't have to have a build-out completely done on day 1 - they can do it incrementally and the phones will work as people move, but technically a Verizon user could roam on an AT&T tower.

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[gblfxt]

i've been able to use my GSM phone when i travel around the world, CDMA, not so much.

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[bill_mcgonigle]

i've been able to use my GSM phone when i travel around the world, CDMA, not so much.

Try northern New England, for one. Apple won't even sell you an iPhone if you live in Vermont. Pretending GSM has worldwide coverage doesn't help. Converging the standards does.

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[TooMuchToDo]

I'm trying recall the name of the project that is the open radio system. With something such as a general radio and an antenna to handle multiple frequencies, couldn't the phone use either GSM or CDMA?

*google*

Ahh! http://hpsdr.org/

The term I was looking for was software defined radio.

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[gblfxt]

when i said "the world", i meant outside of US, if only one country considers something a standard, its not much of one

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[bill_mcgonigle]

when i said "the world", i meant outside of US, if only one country considers something a standard, its not much of one

Well, setting aside that the topic of discussion here is specifically North America, your statement depends on which part of the world you're going to. For instance, if you're going to Japan or South Korea your GSM phone isn't going to work. (You can rent a UTMS W-CDMA phone there to use your SIM card in).

Regardless, there are two incompatible standards in effect and it appears they're converging, so skip forward a decade and your 'global' will probably work everywhere.

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[bill_mcgonigle]

I'm trying recall the name of the project that is the open radio system. With something such as a general radio and an antenna to handle multiple frequencies, couldn't the phone use either GSM or CDMA?

Yeah, I think that's the end game. IIRC, it's currently cheaper to use two mass-produced chipsets to achieve GSM and W-CDMA than a single software-defined radio, but hopefully some mass production will even this out in the next few years. I suspect it'll take a low-cost carrier that doesn't give you a "free phone" every two years, and that might take the LTE standard being in place to make that carrier viable. But it'll come, I'm sure - the future is always cheap general-purpose hardware + software. A 'phone' ASIC can't be too far off.

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[TooMuchToDo]

I think a software defined radio would be the perfect thing for the OpenMoko phone that just was highlighted on Slashdot (it's open source). It'll work on any network than.

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[bill_mcgonigle]

I think a software defined radio would be the perfect thing for the OpenMoko phone that just was highlighted on Slashdot (it's open source). It'll work on any network than.

Absolutely, except, currently, software defined radio hardware to work with, e.g. the GNURadio stack, is gonna run you a bit under $1000US. But, that's what Moore's law is for, not to mention mass production! When that's a $30 part, it's probably a no-brainer for OpenMoko. Not just cellular - it can be an FM Radio, a GPS receiver, a Bluetooth device, WiFi, UWB, etc. etc.

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[TooMuchToDo]

It also future-proofs the device to an extent. Want your GSM device to do HSDPA/UMTS? Boom. Firmware/software upgrade. New bluetooth standard that chews through less power? Done. None of this upgrading with each protocol change.

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[bill_mcgonigle]

Exactly, that's why I think when people actually own their own phone instead of being forced to pay for a new one over a 2-year contract they'll be even more appealing.

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[Toll_Free]

Speaking as a native US person (born and raised), I can tell you this.

Most CITIZENS of the US don't consider VT a state. Sheesh, can your state be smaller than the CITY I live in?

--Toll_Free
(tongue in cheek, I can tell you this, when I HAD to be available 24X7, I carried a GSM and another CDMA phone. I finally ended up with a Seimens World Class GSM phone that (no bullshit) could fold over to analog AT&T towers. I TRULY had world phone status with that damn thing. The rate plan killed me, though... It was slightly more expensive than two seperate (CDMA and GSM) plans, but the convenience factor made up for it).

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[Toll_Free]

The D-Link (IIRC) 802.11A PCI card also has the capability of SDR. Uses the same chip that a couple military SDR type radios use, so getting it to work under linux was kind of a hard thing to do... Required actually flashing the EPROM of the radio card to make it work. Might have been a different brand, but it was an 802.11A/B/G card, I remember that.

I own a wonder radio (well, on it's way). Same as the Flex radio above, but only costs 600 bucks (a lot less, if you pre-ordered). Drawback is the 1 watt output. I have tetrodes that can fix that, though :)

--Toll_Free

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[MichaelSmith]

Cripes just get a sat phone.

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[Toll_Free]

Good idea. While your at it, you may or may not know that the United States Central Intelligence Agency is the primary backing for the Motorola sat phones.

They and the military are the numero uno customers of the service, and when the service (I cannot for the life of me remember the name) said they where basically going out of business a number of years ago, we (CIA) ponied up the bread to ensure their continued existance.

You think that the CIA has far reaching abilities on your ISP's network, imagine how much they listen to people on their own! (also, if you don't think they listen in on sat-com, think again. That's Binnie Ladin's original method of comm).

--Toll_Free

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[colenski]

Iridium

Re:CDMA areas in 4 years?

[Toll_Free]

YES, that was the elemental name that escaped my mind.

REALLY cool devices, although sometimes cellular technology is better... LOL.

--Toll_Fre

WHAT??? no Ninja backflips????!!!

[naz404]

Well I am certainly disappointed.

Freerunner my shiny metal ass

I was imagining linux-phone wielding geeks, running all over the place, doing acrobatic backflips and leaping all over buildings like that guy James Bond chased all over in Casino Royale and that bad-ass acrobatic French assassin Bruce Willis faced off with in Die Hard 4

And here I was so excited thinking badass Ninja Robot Freerunners you can own were coming to the U.S.

Bah.

Re:WHAT??? no Ninja backflips????!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

That ability is currently pending inclusion into the next firmware update. Please be patient.

Audio?

[crush]

What does this thing have hardware support for in terms of audio codecs? Also how is using it to browse the web?

Re:Audio?

[Hannes2000]

the webbrowser currently available through the repositories is quite a pain in the ass. the rendering is butt-ugly, scrolling is only possible using scrollbars, zooming is only possible using the tiny zoom-buttons and the keyboard didn't show up when I focused the textfield at google. but I'm sure things will get better soon.

Re:Audio?

[richlv]

can't you run opera on it ? while not opensource, it should be quite a decent tool for the purpose.

Re:Audio?

[crush]

Thanks for that. Useful info.

Re:Audio?

[Hannes2000]

opera mini depends on java, while opera mobile is neither free as in beer nor free as in speech. thus, while there is no java on openmoko, these are no decent solutions.

Re:Audio?

[intangible]

Does it support minimo like my N800? They both use ARM processors... Btw, does the included browser support plugins? I have the minimo Flash plugin for ARM from the N800 and if that would work on Freerunner, I'd buy it tomorrow.

Re:Audio?

[Hannes2000]

seems like minimo is already runnable under openmoko: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Minimo

Lowered bars

[Goaway]

Although, in my own personal completely unscientific test, 2 out 3 AT&T SIM cards worked.

Sounds like Open Source to me!

Re:Lowered bars

[Creepy Crawler]

And if you hack the radio, you'll get more bars. You'll also get a mugshot too.

Who is aware of the Neo Freerunner

[GeneralSunTzu]

Buddy, this is nonsense. Am located in Belgium and have ordered three days ago a Freerunner from Germany, likely to be shipped after the 25 July.
On behalf of the European geeks,
GeneralSunTzu

Re:Who is aware of the Neo Freerunner

[Yvan256]

Well ok, I stand "corrected". Only geeks are aware of it.

That's still an extremely small market compared to the general public.

Re:Who is aware of the Neo Freerunner

[Anonymous Coward]

Well ok, I stand "corrected". Only geeks are aware of it.

As compared to those fucktards who stand in lines whole night just to lose service for one full fucking day for a device which does not have a keyboard and can't do basic things like copy-paste?

SOLD OUT!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

from http://us.direct.openmoko.com/products/neo-freerunner

Neo FreeRunner is currently SOLD OUT.
The next batch of shipments are scheduled to arrive on July 25th. In the meantime, please consider purchasing from an official Openmoko Distributor.

kanibalv

3G network...

[Etherized]

OpenMoko still has problems with some 3G networks, including AT&T.

This claim is misleading - the device has no UMTS radio, so of course AT&T's 3G network isn't supported. What's really happening is that some people who have "3G" SIM cards are having trouble accessing AT&Ts GSM network.

Re:3G network...

[blackjackshellac]

Can you elabourate on that statement for a clueless newbie (when it comes to these farking wireless standards at least :)

Are you saying that people are claiming that it doesn't work with ATT but are using 3G sims when a GSM sim is required?

Re:3G network...

[Etherized]

Can you elabourate on that statement for a clueless newbie (when it comes to these farking wireless standards at least :)

Are you saying that people are claiming that it doesn't work with ATT but are using 3G sims when a GSM sim is required?

No - "3G SIMs" are designed to support both GSM and UMTS, so this device should be able to access AT&T's 2G network with a "3G SIM." Some people are reporting that this device is not working with such a SIM, and that's a legitimate problem - but it has nothing to do with "3G networks" as the summary implies, since the device can't operate on 3G networks to begin with.

Sold Out

[raijinsetsu]

It's sold out, and has been for weeks. I was going to purchase one, but I didn't have the cash. Now that I have the cash, there isn't one to buy. I'll have to wait another month, but at least I'll get to read all the reviews in the meantime.

and I'd want to buy it why?

[arpad1]

If I'm not mistaken, the phones are going for $400 per. It doesn't look all that good compared to the $200 iPhone so why would I want one if I wasn't interested in the "open" aspect of the phone?

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wells, you have to keep in mind the true cost on an iphone (namely the difference between an iPhone plan and the plan you would get if you didn't have an iPhone). For me that difference is pretty large, mutliply by 24 and you've got a much more expensive iPhone.

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[Tony]

First and foremost, because you control the software.

Secondly, the iPhone is *much* more than $200. That's the subsidized price. By the time you finish with the contract, you've spent quite a bit on your iPhone.

Really, though, you'd only want one right now if you wish to hack on it. There's no reason to get one as your regular phone if you're not a hacker. The software stack is still in its infancy.

Mine is supposed to arrive in a week. I'm pretty damned excited. I figure it needs some good games, like Nethack.

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[Anonymous Coward]

You wouldn't (as you probably well know.) You can get a `better' phone for less money, not so much since due to the open nature of the phone as due to the high cost of entry into manufacturing these things. These guys are betting that enough people regard the ability to customize the workings of the phone (or maybe just open source principles and nerd cred) higher than they do raw hardware specs and out-of-the-box usability.
Unless someone comes up with some killer app that can't be cloned on 'ordinary' smartphones, the best the owners of this can hope for is to eventually reach feature parity, and they'll be disadvantaged by the hardware.

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[Anonymous Coward]

to buy the iphone without a contract, it costs $599 for the 8GB and $699 for the 16GB. that is more expensive than the freerunner

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[pinkstuff]

In New Zealand the iPhone is NZD$200, if you take that option then you are tied to a 2 year contract. How much is this contract? $250 a month! So over two years the iPhone will have actually costed you NZD$6,200. I think I will get a FreeRunner...

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Secondly, the iPhone is *much* more than $200. That's the subsidized price. By the time you finish with the contract, you've spent quite a bit on your iPhone.

I've never understood that argument. You're GOING to need some sort of cell service to properly use a device like that - why include that when comparing the price of ANY phones?

Yes, the new iPhone's data is $30/month instead of $20 - my previous phone cost me $45 every month for data. $30 at 3g speeds versus $20 at EDGE speeds is entirely worth it.

I'm not trying to tout the iPhone. I really don't care if you use an iPhone or not; although I like it, I think there are plenty of disadvantages and it isn't ideal for everyone. I just hate hearing such horribly twisted logic, and this one in particular is common.

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[Toll_Free]

Thank you for applying actual logic to all of this.

I have a data plan with AT&T as well, for my HTC Wizard. I love the phone, but just recently remembered I'm going to be eligible for my "free upgrade" next month.

Will I go to the IPHONE, hell no, I'll be purchasing the newest HTC offering they have. Probably cost me about the same, maybe a little more or less, than this phone. What will I gain? It's easily unlockable, has literally MILLIONS of programs written for it, can do nearly anything I want, and I honestly can't see the hype over a "open source" phone that doesn't even do quad band or have a camera. Sheesh, people, THIS PHONE IS 5 YEARS OLD, MINIMUM.

But, It's Open Source (Think of the children!!)

--Toll_Free (not on floor rolling, but literally laughing after reading the website for the Neo phones. OLD_SKEWL)

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mine is supposed to arrive in a week. I'm pretty damned excited. I figure it needs some good games, like Nethack.

If you port Nethack to my phone, that'll cost me *way* more in productivity than the phone did in cash.

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG! nethack is the ideal game for a device that is carried with you at all times, it's asynchronous (turn based) so you can interrupt.
and it is waaay too addictive.
evil evil!

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[mrchaotica]

I figure it needs some good games, like Nethack.

Wow, you mean it doesn't already have Nethack? I would have figured that would be a higher priority than the phone dialer!

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[blackjackshellac]

Apparently, you've answered your own question. If you aren't interested in the "open" aspect of the phone, then you probably have no interest in the phone. And, of course, the iPhone is only 200 bucks (for the 8G model) if you sign your life away for 3 years (here in Canada anyway, not sure about elsewhere). Other reasons, it's got replaceable batteries. It's got a microSD slot so you can load it up with whatever size cards you've got lying around. Oh yeah, and the display is VGA (640x480) compared to the iphone's 480x320, granted the iPhone display is a bit larger. The iPhone does have a camera, and supports EDGE.

To me, this is hands down more interesting (as a linux geek anyway) than the farkin' iPhone.

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[Mattsson]

I have a subscription. I've had it for 6 years now.
Whey I buy a new phone, I don't get myself a new subscription. I buy a non-locked phone and keep my old sim-card.
For me, subsidized prices are meaningless.

Also, if you do the math, most "subsidized" phones with subscription X and a Y month contract end up costing more than a non-subsidized phone using the same service after the same period of time.
They usually make you pay a higher subscription-fee for the same service during the contracted time in order to regain the cost of the phone.
It's like buying something that cost $1000 on credit with a high interest rate and think "Whoo! Cheap! I only payed $1 up front for this!"

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[CreatureComfort]

Um..except for the fact that you kinda have to have a contract with somebody to use it anyway. Since none of the carriers is going to give you that subsidy money in cash, or lower contract prices, you are pretty much just giving your carrier a big fat payday by going with a non-subsidized phone. And in fact, you are paying the extra by not being able to take advantage of the subsidy.

Since most people become semi-religious about their carrier, and very few people swap carriers on time frames shorter than the contract period, there really isn't any advantage, cost wise, to going with a no contract phone.

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[CreatureComfort]

OK, and how much is the no contract price for service monthly? Including the unlimited data plan, etc. that you will need to pay for to get the equivalent service from your FreeRunner?

Get back to me with a full cost comparison for equivalent level of service and functionality and we'll talk.

Re:and I'd want to buy it why?

[pinkstuff]

In NZ they are not offering a unlimited data plan, the best you can do is 500 mb's per month for $130. The good news is that it is only $130 per month now; they got dragged through the media and I think they realised their pricing was ridiculous.

If I buy the iPhone with no contract it is $1200. So the price isn't actually too bad now, but is still twice as much as the Freerunner.

But if you want another reason not to buy the iPhone, how about this:

"The upshot is that every citizen of planet earth can get the iPhone SDK at no charge, but they're contractually obligated to Apple not to discuss the SDK or exchange ideas with others. The agreements leave no room for forums, newsgroups, open source projects, tutorials, magazine articles, users' groups, or books". From the article: http://weblog.infoworld.com/yager/archives/2008/07/apples_iphone_c.html

Only ATnT?

[Anonymous Coward]

So this thing can't do GSM 1900 which is what T-Mobile uses, correct?

Re:Only ATnT?

[TooMuchToDo]

That's what it's looking like. As a T-Mobile customer, this makes me a sad panda.

Re:Only ATnT?

[TooMuchToDo]

Looks like I was wrong:

http://www.openmoko.com/product.html

* GSM
o Tri band 850/1800/1900 MHz
o Tri band 900/1800/1900 MHz

Re:Only ATnT?

[tchuladdiass]

Actually, they have two models -- 900/1800/1900, and 850/1800/1900. Both will work with t-mobile. AT&T uses mostly 850, so the second model is the one you'd want if you are on at&t, or if you are on t-mobile and want to roam to 850-only areas.

Re:Only ATnT?

[desertrat_it]

Wrong. They come in two triband models: GSM850/1800/1900 and GSM900/1800/1900 http://shop.koolu.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5&zenid=1mkafqj1ka0tv8tl78u8k3a0f7

Re:Only ATnT?

[FreeForm Response]

I can positively assert that the phone works great with T-Mobile's network. Mine arrived today and I'm already loving it.

Re:Only ATnT?

[storkus]

Actually that's not quite true: while most of AT&T's markets are 800/850, there are a few, such as here in Phoenix, that are 1900 only--Alltel has the
A side and Verizon the B side. There are also a small number of markets where T-Mobile aka the old orange Cingular network, operates on 850 only: I
believe the largest is in the Great Lakes area.

What I'd like to know is that, with the proliferation of quad band radios, why they didn't use one of those instead?

Mike

Re:Only ATnT?

[tchuladdiass]

Well, T-Mobile in the Chicago area uses 1900, not sure about further up north (I do know that most of their roaming in Wisconsin is 850).
As far as the radio that was chosen, I think the device was originally designed as a quad-bad, but it couldn't get FCC certification until they removed one of the lower bands. Probably due to the antenna design. Also, the radio chip they use is a rather old model, that TI sells for like a couple bucks or so (from what I gather by following the mailing list).

touch the glass to be sure...

[azzuth]

In soviet russia, mirror takes pictures of you!

Re:touch the glass to be sure...

[ksd1337]

At least the person wouldn't look so fucking STUPID in the photo, with them holding the camera.

the pictures are almost worthless

[MoreDruid]

they're too blurry, on some pictures you can barely make out what the guy is trying to take a picture of!

Too bad, since I think it's a pretty nifty device and I would've bought it if it hadn't taken that long to get to market

Downsides to Openmoko?

[marklar1]

Can anyone shed some light on the following statements, taken from:

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2007/08/23/apple-iphone-vs-the-fic-neo1973-openmoko-linux-smartphone/

(after several points wraps up:)

"...OpenMoko therefore isn't a new âoeopen phone,â it's merely a version of Linux designed to run on a specific vendor's proprietary implementation of Windows Mobile. Buying an FIC phone to run OpenMoko is like buying a Dell Windows PC to run Linux. You're not changing the world, you're merely funding development of Microsoft's platform while giving yourself the opportunity to work with community software."

I don't understand the differentiation or point made regarding the serial port connection to the the GSM/GPRS run by proprietary Nucleus OS -- is this like a BIOS for the hardware instead of an OS? Is it a problem with proprietary drivers?

Perhaps more important, how does this compare to other Linux based phones out there?? Does this help the community in general, or is it really vendor specific?

Re:Downsides to Openmoko?

[ThogScully]

Sounds to me like they made a bunch of stuff up. The OpenMoko folks have gone to great lengths to develop the hardware platform from a completely open perspective, so that it developers can have full access to the hardware and full specs to program to.

Ultimately, calling this a Windows phone running Linux is like saying that all ARM processors are really Windows machines that can also run Linux.

The article really focused on OpenMoko vs. iPhone, but at least as far as I read, didn't get the point. The iPhone is geared toward those who buy things already working and the FreeRunner is aimed at those who want to make it better.
-N

Re:Downsides to Openmoko?

[xgr3gx]

I don't know what the hell he was talking about either. The words "Windows" and "proprietary" shouldn't be uttered in the same sentence as Openmoko.
I think it seems pretty good for the first production iteration. That's a huge undertaking to develop a complete hardware/software phone platform.
I think the Freerunner and Openmoko have the power to shake things up a bit when they become more polished, and more general consumer ready.
It needs to be marketed on 2 fronts:
open hackability for us geeks
sleek design, media features, and run on any network for mass audiences.

Re:Downsides to Openmoko?

[dltaylor]

"serial connection to GSM/GPRS"

GSM/GMRS modules often have an embedded microcontroller (ARM7, or the like), and some sort of microkernel. The command/control channel between those and the "system" processor (running Linux/some sort of embedded M$-Windows/...) may emulate, or, in fact, be, a serial port. You exchange sequences similar to the old Hayes modem commands, now commonly called the "AT" command set. You can also use PPP connections, although I don't know if they take advantage of PPP's encapsulation of multiple protocols so the command/control, IP networking, and voice have separate streams within the PPP connection.

Re:Downsides to Openmoko?

[Erikderzweite]

The iPhone is geared toward those who buy things already working and the FreeRunner is aimed at those who want to make it better.

Well said. The very reason I want a Freerunner.

Re:Downsides to Openmoko?

[simong]

It's clearly someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. For one, FIC are not a Windows PC maker, but a PC maker. They make the ION 604 mini PC that is sold under various names, particularly Koolu and Linutop, which is sold either as a diskless thin client or with a 2.5" HD with a Linux distribution. It's based on the AMD Geode chip, and will run practically any x86 OS as long as there are drivers - I've put a standard out of the box Ubuntu distribution onto one which worked perfectly except for the sound (which was annoying as I was trying to make a networked music player).
To say that OpenMoko is a 'Windows Mobile' phone is therefore specious. It's an ARM device that can run Windows Mobile or anything else that can be compiled for its chipset. HTC are about to follow suit and turn one of their models into an Android (read Linux and whatever the Android platform adds) phone. It has been possible, if not easy, to port Linux to their devices for a long time, but I think that that is the nature of the mobile phone/PDA platform in general.
The question of compatibility with GPS and GSM hardware was discussed last year in various places. My feeling was that the nature of the mobile phone system would make it difficult for an 'open' telephone device to be truly open and that the best that could be done would be to talk to 'black box' implementations of GSM and maybe even GPS by squirting AT codes into sealed chipsets to prevent too much openness. Phone companies are notoriously protective about what crosses their networks, which was why I wondered aloud whether compromises would have to be made with OpenMoko. So far it would appear to be not, but it would also appear that there is going to be a fair amount of SIM-swapping and ongoing work to make it usable as a regular phone.

Re:Downsides to Openmoko?

[Crizp]

I think he just tried to say that the hardware was originally designed by the Chinese government (what's that got to do with anything) as a Windows Mobile platform, not that Linux runs on top of Windows, but then again I'm not sure -- they guy seems to have a screw loose somewhere.

single touch only :(

[Anonymous Coward]

The touch screen doesn't support "pinching" and "unpinching" to zoom in or out. Though this is mainly just a "toy" feature, I think its novelty is a major selling point for the iPhone.

I wonder what would have needed to get cut in order to support dual tracking in the touch screen?

Re:single touch only :(

[Hijacked Public]

I don't find it a toy feature at all, I think it is the most elegant solution to browsing the web, maps, photos, etc. on a small screen I've seen yet.

Since the Freerunner's screen is smaller, and from the screenshots it looks like more of its space is taken up by administrative junk, there might not be enough room to pinch/unpinch anyway.

Re:single touch only :(

[kaizokuace]

I think apple has a patent on that pinching/unpinching motion.

Re:single touch only :(

[holdenkarau]

Most apps toggle to full-screen mode for the win.

There are hardware issues with GPS this iteration.

[Kelvie]

http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-July/021774.html It seems that GPS doesn't work very well with a microSD card plugged in ... and this appears to be a hardware issue. If this is the case, I am thinking about sending the package back when it arrives (it's scheduled for tomorrow via UPS). It'll cost an arm and a leg to send it to the US and back otherwise (from Canada, thanks to UPS and customs).

Shawn the Anonymous Coward.

[Anonymous Coward]

I just got mine, and all I have to say is....

game over!

This is not just a phone. It is a handheld Linux based router! It has a full stack via USB, and in the other direction via the GSM. It is open source hardware, using open source software. I hope a few of you realize what I am talking about. I don't think a device like this (this small, and compact) existed which has this functionality. Routing.

After testing three different sim cards I finally got it to work with ATT. (G3 Fireball, not the one with the round contacts on the back, the one with the square contacts on the back it ends in G 4003 or something to that effect, its posted on the openmoko wiki.

Mark this post, this is the beginning of the end my friends!

Re:Shawn the Anonymous Coward.

[TheRaven64]

Huh? My current phone (which I've had for 3 years) routes packets between my laptop or palmtop (I use it with my Nokia 770) via bluetooth and the Internet via UMTS. It doesn't need a wire, and it gets 50KB/s in real-world usage. Why, exactly, is needing a wire and routing at a tenth of the speed, but using Linux for the routing, is an improvement.

Re:Shawn the Anonymous Coward.

[CreatureComfort]

Why in the world would I possibly ever want to use my cell phone as a router?

Toy

[Anonymous Coward]

Tag this story "toy"

I Would Have Been Interested

[Skjellifetti]

but I'm still occupied fixing the numerous little annoyances that came with my last not-quite-ready-for-prime-time-alpha-version open source phone purchase. I hope they can make the beta version a little smaller since it doesn't quite fit into a pocket and it is too big to hold up to my ear for long.

Re:I Would Have Been Interested

[Bob The Cowboy]

That's a mighty big phone....

3 Minutes boot-up time - No more questions

[yooy]

I don't need a camera in my phone and the OpenMoko concept sounded interesting but the first phone came late, very late. It is a triband and not a Quad-band, which I would have prefered. The worst thing is: This phone needs 3 minutes to boot-up! Thanks, I pass!

Re:3 Minutes boot-up time - No more questions

[Boogaroo]

Blackberries take 3 minutes to boot up too, so it's certainly not a unique issue.

Re:3 Minutes boot-up time - No more questions

[Ilgaz]

Symbian S60 does take 30-45 sec to boot up. I don't know the Apple iPhone but I am totally sure it doesn't instantly boot up. I was just about to say if iPhone turns on instantly, remove the battery and watch it but... you know, battery can't be removed :)

You don't reboot smart phones, you set them offline. At least I do it. Mobile operating systems are designed to run for weeks or months, My Nokia 9300 record is 3 months, it doesn't even have capability to turn off without removing battery. As it is actually running Linux, I don't think any kind of reboot should be necessary at all.

If you want a instant booting phone, choice is clear. Buy non smart (they got good J2ME) Nokia S40 or Sony Ericsson phones.

Get both release 1 AND 2 when it's ready

[rekrutacja]

Waiting for second release is a good way to kick a company out of the market. I understand this desire for some businesses, but with Freerunner and OpenMoko you do want this second release to happen, right? So buy this release, and than buy the second when it's ready.

Re:Get both release 1 AND 2 when it's ready

[jacquesm]

that's a really good point, I had not thought about it from that angle.

Re:Get both release 1 AND 2 when it's ready

[TheRaven64]

Which is why the lack of the camera and 3G is a huge problem. I'd be happy to pay slightly over market value for a phone with an open software stack, but only if it's an upgrade. My current phone is almost three years old now. It has 3G, works for Internet access from my laptop via Bluetooth and has a 2M pixel camera. Trading it in for one with only GPRS (getting off GPRS having been the reason for my last phone upgrade) and no camera is just not going to happen. My next upgrade is likely to be to HSPDA and something with enough flash for my music collection, and I'd really like it to be based on an open stack, but if they are going to build products based on three of four generation old technology and price them in the premium segment then it's really hard to justify buying them.

Re:There are hardware issues with GPS this iterati

[holdenkarau]

Before you send it back check out this thread, it seems like there might be a simple work around.

Android?

[autophile]

Will Android run on it?

What access does it have to wireless data connections?

Re:Android?

[squidinkcalligraphy]

AFAIK android will (eventually) run on it

Re:Android?

[alphabeat]

Only via crazy hackery unbeknownst to man. The Freerunner uses ARMv4 and Android requires ARMv5 [1]. Note that this article is for the older Neo1973 but the same applies. [1] http://benno.id.au/blog/2007/11/21/android-neo1973

Re:Android?

[Anonymous Coward]

Android will run after Google release the Android source code so that it can be ported. That won't happen until another Android phone (probably the HTC Dream) is released, though.

Re:Android?

[Anonymous Coward]

No. It won't. Android has non-open source components which require an ARM5 processor. This phone is ARM4. Unless google open sources some parts of Android it won't run.

looks nice, but unbuyable

[Anonymous Coward]

I sent a business query to their sales e-mail address over a month ago in an attempt to secure details about OEM usage. They never bothered to reply to my messages and consequently lost our potential volume deal. My team ended up settling on the iPhone for our initial platform, simply because it was impossible for us to even find out when we might hear back about the OpenMoko.

I would consider that...

[zogger]

...to still be a fantastic tradeoff. I just can't see being annoyed with being able to live in *beautiful* Vermont over lack of some trendy gadget from a grossly over priced California company. In fact, I'd call that a +plus bonus feature, keep them sort of folks out.

Re:I would consider that...

[bill_mcgonigle]

In fact, I'd call that a +plus bonus feature, keep them sort of folks out.

Oh, they're already there. The dairy farmers are none too pleased. From this side of the River we refer to them as the People's Republic of Vermont.

further disclaimer

[zogger]

To be fair about bemoaning lack of this or that modern tech convenience, I have ranted more than a few times about not being able to get any sort of broadband, even crappy broadband, where I live. The tradeoff is..I don't have to live where it is available either, meaning closer to cities* with all the negatives that implies, and no desire to move just to get broadband. It would be *nice* to get it, I am currently paying twice for dialup plus necessary landline than what I read people pay for lowball broadband, but I wouldn't trade what I have for it either, if it was an either/or proposition.

* I am a mile and change too far from the nearest telco box. DSL is around two miles max from what I have read. Cable most likely would be a non starter, I am last in line on both the phone and electric string.
Now I lived in Vermont a long time ago and loved it, certainly much further out in the sticks than I am here now in georgia, but I would bet the issue is one more of mountains there than geographical distance. And I found most of the people there to be just fine, hippies/straights/preppies/yuppies, you name it, the ambience was great compared to most places I have been to. And true second amendment!

Re:further disclaimer

[bill_mcgonigle]

And true second amendment!

Well, yes, amen to that, however much a contradiction it might be I don't need to worry about driving across state lines in my truck.

As far as connectivity, the Governor decreed a couple years ago that the whole state would be covered by cell and broadband by date X (2010, maybe?) And that was it. But it has been decreed. Hurray!

Beware of GPS problems

[efalk]

I received mine yesterday. By evening, I found out that the GPS wouldn't lock on unless I used an external antenna. By this morning, users had discovered that the GPS works fine if the memory card is removed, pointing to probably electronic interference behind them. If they don't find a field fix for the problem, I'll have to send mine back because I bought it for the GPS applications that I would write for it.

Re:Beware of GPS problems

[wild_berry]

As this post says, there's a thread in the mailing list (http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-July/021848.html) which says it's a voltage issue, not EMC.

Put the phone back in the box

[Anonymous Coward]

Put the phone back in the box, learn to use your camera.. and then carry out the unboxing process again from the start.

Closed hardware on "Opens" platform

[T.E.D.]

Why on earth did they choose to put a 3D accelerator chip on it that requires an NDA to program? The entire FreeSoftware movement was created as a reaction against NDA's.

If I have to reverse-engineer the dang thing, I might as well get an iPhone. Its cheaper too.