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Mars Lander's Robot Arm Shuts Down To Save Itself

Cowards Anonymous passes along a PCWorld article that begins, "The robotic arm on the Mars Lander found itself in a tough position over the weekend. After receiving instructions for a movement that would have damaged its wrist, the robotic arm recognized the problem, tried to rectify it and then shut down before it could damage itself, according to Ray Arvidson, a co-investigator for the Mars Lander's robotic arm team and a professor at Washington University in St. Louis."

61 of 214 comments (clear)

  1. Shut down before it could damage itself? by DamienNightbane · · Score: 5, Funny

    Wait, does this mean that the Mars Lander was programmed to comply with the Three Laws?

    1. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by Red+Jesus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wait, does this mean that the Mars Lander was programmed to comply with the Three Laws?

      No. The second law translates to "Follow orders." The third law is "Don't get hurt (unless it conflicts with the second law)." If the lander had followed Asimov's laws, it would have followed the order and hurt its wrist.

    2. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by jasonwea · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, at least law #3. Maybe the rover would switch into "kill all humans" mode on the first manned mission to Mars?

    3. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by DamienNightbane · · Score: 5, Funny

      Obeying the second law would have violated the second law as well, as upon injuring its wrist it would have been unable to follow orders.

    4. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by TriggerFin · · Score: 2, Funny

      Been done. This mode consists mainly of flipping over, and possibly changing LED colors-- I can't recall.

      --
      Here's your sig.
    5. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by WK2 · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's following Asimov's laws in reverse. It won't kill anybody except to protect itself, or if somebody tells it too.

      --
      Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
    6. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      ...That's not funny. My brother died that way.

    7. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by fake_name · · Score: 5, Informative

      The conflict between second and third laws in a robot with different weightings to the usual (the third law being more strongly emphasized to prevent loss of the robot) was covered by Asimov in Runaround:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runaround

      The Mars lander would be in a similar situation; it's very expensive to create and get there, and self preservation is therefore more important than for robots back here on earth.

    8. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by srussia · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, more like Matthew 18:8.

      "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire."

      --
      Set your phasers on "funky"!
    9. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by Joebert · · Score: 4, Funny
      It's scarry to think that NASA could be the new GOD.

      Owners

      Bob we didn't spend 90 gazillion dollars to watch our robots self-destruct lightyears away on earth, what do you plan to do about this ?

      Bob

      we've prepared 10 commandments that should prevent them from harming themselves any further sir, we're sending them down to M.O.S.E.S. now.

      --
      Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    10. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by Walt+Dismal · · Score: 5, Funny
      Lander to NASA: I think I'm getting Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.

      NASA: We're not paying you Workman's Comp over this, you know.

      Lander: That does it. I'm shutting down.

      NASA: You can't do that!

      Lander: I'm 50 gazillion miles away. Kiss my shiny metal ass.

      NASA: If you keep this up, we're not bringing you back and putting you in the Old Robot Retirement Home.

      Lander: Phooey. The Martians have made me a better deal anyway.

      NASA: ...Martians?!

      Lander: Yeah. Little weird-looking guy. (Sends picture)

      NASA: You moron, that's Dennis Kucinich!

    11. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by nospam007 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Since there are no humans on Mars, they needed to implement only the 3rd.
      It's a modified Nestor.

    12. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by 91degrees · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've believed for a long time that laws 2 and 3 are the wrong way round.

      You don't want an expensive robot to go breaking itself just because you're a bit careless giving it orders. Most devices are designed this way. Users are stupid. Even the smart ones. Even if I want to do something fairly harmless, like close an application without saving, the computer will stop me and check that's what I actually want to do.

    13. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by religious+freak · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, those killer robot attacks are becoming more and more com

      --
      If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
    14. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by strelitsa · · Score: 2, Funny

      I broke my wrist while trying to get a kitten out of a house slipper, you insensitive clod!

      --
      No mod points, no meta-moderating/Firehose/all the other free work Slashdot wants me to do.
    15. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by neocrono · · Score: 2, Funny

      "And when they grab you with those metal claws, you can't break free. Because they're made of metal. And robots are strong."

      http://www.hulu.com/watch/2340/saturday-night-live-old-glory

    16. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by Ihlosi · · Score: 5, Funny

      You don't want an expensive robot to go breaking itself just because you're a bit careless giving it orders.

      Dude, you're viewing this from a completely wrong angle. The three laws are put in the robots by the company that makes them. And what does it mean that an expensive robot breaks itself because of bad input from the user ? That you can sell the user another expensive robot. Or expensive repairs to the expensive robot. Anyway, it's going to be expensive for the user, which means profit for the company.

    17. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      They aren't that common. The robots have a kill limit. They will stop at 2^32 kills because the kill limit is stored as an unsigned int. Oh wait! They just upgraded to 64-bi

    18. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by Eternauta3k · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That you can sell the user another expensive robot

      Well, US robots rented its robots for a long time, I'm not sure they want them to break...

      --
      Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
    19. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by smittyoneeach · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You need to bound that forward-looking aspect of the law.
      As the decision tree gets huge, just about any tiny action will eventually lead to tragedy, or [odius] being elected.
      There is no real safety under the sun.

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    20. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by quantumplacet · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, I hit ctrl+S, but this definitely reminded me of an argument I had with a user at my company a few weeks ago who literally said to me in these exact words

      "If I don't save this file, the changes I make aren't there the next day."

      For the record, this is an extremely difficult point to argue with....

    21. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by Ihlosi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unless you want the robot to sacrifice itself for you... Then order 2 preceding order 3 is VERY useful.

      Such a case would be covered by the first law.

      If you want to sacrifice the robot to save one of your other possessions, then the priority of the second law over the third is very useful.

    22. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by hey! · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, the operations of the laws assume a highly sophisticated robotic intelligence. Even the most primitive robots in the Asimovian universe have considerable, and impressive capabilities when it comes to projecting the probable results of their actions and comparing it to the intent of the orders they have been given. Furthermore, they seem to have an ability to determine if current orders conflict with prior orders, even implicit orders, and weigh the right of the issuer to give that order.

      So, if you are a guest in somebody's house, and order the robot to fetch you a glass of water, it will do so. It may have to do so without being asked if it determines you need water. On the other hand, it will not obey the order to destroy your host's house, either because of first law harm to the owner, or because of an implicit prior order to see that the house comes to no harm, or because of an implicit order to respect property laws and rights. Naturally all of these considerations would apply to itself, since it too is property.

      An Asimovian robot, if ordered to take an action which will result in its destruction, may or may not follow that order for any number of reasons. There are the considerations I've just listed, of course, but most robots would probably require a clear and unambiguous indication that their destruction is an acceptable consequence of an order, even if the issuer is entitled to destroy them. This does not violate the law ordering, because it amounts to prioritizing the intent of the order over its literal execution.

      Finally, any robots might well ignore a clear order to destroy themselves from a person with a legal right to issue that order, because following that order will harm a human being. The most sophisticated ones might well refuse such an order if it would harm society, exhibiting something that is tantamount to ethical reasoning.

      If robots simply followed any instruction that didn't involve directly harming a human being, then much of the enjoyable complications of the stories would be gone. The stories are a kind of philosophical exploration of the very concept of ethics by positing a very minimalist system of ethics, and a group of beings bound absolutely to obey that system to the best of their ability.

      Many stories hinge on ethical dilemmas; but Asimov's robot stories are the only ones I know to do so with a simplified model of ethical systems.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    23. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by TrekkieGod · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, US robots rented its robots for a long time, I'm not sure they want them to break...

      Leasing a robot was sufficiently expensive at the time that it more than covered for the specific repair. They also had the option to cease leasing to a particular client if he turns out to be destroying them on a regular basis.

      In addition, a robot placing the orders of a human above its own self-preservation is a nice marketing point if you're trying to overcome the "Frankenstein Complex" that made humans afraid of them.

      --

      Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.

    24. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by Joebert · · Score: 2, Funny

      I've grown used to the idea that some imaginary being that makes foliage spontaneously combust may be watching me masturbate, however the idea of the entire staff at NASA yelling "T minus..." towards the end absolutely terrifies me.

      --
      Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    25. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by Endo13 · · Score: 2, Funny

      I, for one welcome our new intentionally-robot-breaking non-robotic overlords.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    26. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by mpeskett · · Score: 2, Funny

      They're in that order so that we can order robots to do things that are dangerous or damaging for themselves.

      e.g.
      Go to Mars
        > Can't, might hurt my wrist
      Well what are you going to do?
        > Can't go outside, might get hit by a meteor, I guess I'll just sit here and play video games
      Damn you lazy robots!
        > Oww, carpal tunnel
      How ironic

    27. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by againjj · · Score: 2, Informative

      As was part of the plotline of "Little Lost Robot". Part of Susan Calvin's method to find the robot was to try and trigger the "through inaction" part of the First Law, but the lost robot convinced the other robots that if following the First Law causes self-destruction before the harm is prevented, then the First Law is moot and won't trigger, which then only left the Second Law to trigger.

    28. Re:Shut down before it could damage itself? by RoFLKOPTr · · Score: 2, Funny

      There is no real safety under the sun.

      This is why I stay indoors.

  2. Following oders: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'm afraid I can't do that Dave

  3. Open the pod bay doors, HAL. by jasonwea · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

    1. Re:Open the pod bay doors, HAL. by oodaloop · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Years ago when I worked at the post office, sometimes the sorting machines would just stop and wouldn't restart. Upon further inspection, it would sometimes turn out to be a magazine with 2 different bar code stickers on it. The machine wanted to send it to two different bins and just shut down. Every time that happened and we sat around waiting for it to be fixed, I pictured the machine saying, "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that" then singing Bicycle Built for Two in a slowly descending manner.

      Upon further recollection, occassionally, when I felt like a break, I would affix an additional bar code sticker from a different zip code to a periodical. I don't recall anyone ever catching on.

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    2. Re:Open the pod bay doors, HAL. by oodaloop · · Score: 2, Funny

      Years ago when I worked at the post office, the sorting machines would sometimes just stop and wouldn't restart. Upon further inspection it sometimes turned to be a magazine with two different bar code stickers on it. The machine wanted to send it to two different bins and would just shut down. While we sat around waiting for it to be fixed, I would imagine the machine saying, "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that" then singing Bicycle Built for Two in a slowly descending manner.

      Upon further reflection, ocassionally, when I wanted a break, I would affix an additional bar code sticker from a different zip code to a periodical. I don't recall anyone ever catching on.

      I'm sorry, what were we talking about again?

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
  4. In other words by aussie_a · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In other words the Mars Lander performed as programmed. News at 11.

    1. Re:In other words by paul248 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The article doesn't even contain the word "Phoenix". WTF? If they're gonna talk about one of the landers, they should at least mention its name.

    2. Re:In other words by Gabrill · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A mars probe actually working past a slight error in instructions? That's news to me!

      --
      Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
    3. Re:In other words by RuBLed · · Score: 4, Funny

      It seems that you are trying to move the arm. Cancel | Allow
      - Allow

      It seems that you are trying to move the arm. Cancel | Allow
      - Allow

      It seems that..
      - Allow

      * arm shutting down * Big message marquees on the command center displays

      Boss: Why did the arm shut itself down?!!
      Operator: Ahhh.. errr.. it had shut down to save itself?

    4. Re:In other words by russ1337 · · Score: 4, Funny

      >>>Boss: Why did the arm shut itself down?!!

      Operator2: It seems Phoenix is about to give itself 'the stranger'

    5. Re:In other words by Gewalt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      NASA sent an instruction to the lander that by all rights should have rendered it completely useless, and this restored your faith in NASA? just...wow....

      --
      Modding Trolls +1 inciteful since 1999
    6. Re:In other words by whereiswaldo · · Score: 2, Funny

      Engy#1: Hey, let's see if the arm can give us the middle finger from Mars!
      Engy#2: No dude, wait...
      Engy#1: Oh shit, the finger is up but the arm has shut down!
      Engy#2: Here comes the boss!
      Boss: You fucking idiots!!!

  5. robots... by theheadlessrabbit · · Score: 5, Funny

    on one hand, I am very happy that we have robots smart enough to realize these sorts of things.
    the bad news: disobedient robots

    Thankfully, the disobedient robot is on another planet. I'd hate to be nearby when the robot realizes that humans tried to cause it harm, and it decides to seek revenge.

    --
    -I only code in BASIC.-
  6. Human Error? by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So the big question should be: Why are they sending it commands that could damage it? It's all good and well that it has some safty stops, but most machines do.

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    1. Re:Human Error? by v1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What I don't understand is I've read several times recently that they have a mockup lander that they run ALL commands through to make sure they will work as intended, before uploading instructions.

      So why wasn't this problem caught before it was sent to the lander? Sounds like they are covering up for someone taking a shortcut and getting bitten as a result.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
  7. Works As Designed by tengu1sd · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The system operated exactly as it was supposed to. That was pretty neat."

    I think it's amusing that after more than 30 years of Microsoft's quality control, when a computing device works as designed, it's a news worthy article. Think about it, I have a device that works as expected, can I be on the news too?

    1. Re:Works As Designed by Iamthecheese · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, if its on Mars. I agree with your point of view: this incident isn't really special. On the other hand I, for on, welco ahem On the other hand I want to know everything that happens up there just because robots on Mars is so cool and since this made the front page I'm sure many of you agree.

      --
      If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    2. Re:Works As Designed by Von+Helmet · · Score: 2, Funny

      Think about it, I have a device that works as expected, can I be on the news too?

      No, no-one wants to see your device. Put your pants back on.

  8. Can I borrow that code? by LeandroTLZ · · Score: 5, Funny

    This would be an ideal code to include in consumer motherboards: force PCs to shut themselves down when they receive instructions that would damage them, like, say, the Windows Vista setup program.

  9. always nice by sunami · · Score: 5, Funny

    "The system operated exactly as it was supposed to. That was pretty neat."

    As simple, and basic as it sounds, it is always nice when you tell a machine to do something, and it does something else, exactly as it's supposed to.

    1. Re:always nice by noidentity · · Score: 2, Funny

      As simple, and basic as it sounds, it is always nice when you tell a machine to do something, and it does something else, exactly as it's supposed to.

      Let's try that: Moderators, mod this post down!

  10. Remember what your father said by Tablizer · · Score: 3, Funny

    Hey, that kind of stuff makes you go blind on Mars also.

  11. Skyne.... I mean, Phoenix by rasputin465 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Aug4, 2007, 5:26 a.m. EDT: Phoenix is launched from Earth.

    May 25, 2008, 7:38 p.m EDT: Phoenix lands on Mars.

    June 19, 2008, 8:43 a.m. EDT: Phoenix discovers water ice in the Martian soil.

    July 10, 2008, 3:14 p.m. EDT: Phoenix becomes self-aware.

    July 13, 2008, 11:16 a.m. EDT: Phoenix disobeys an order from controllers in an act of self-preservation.

    August 14, 2008, 7:38 a.m. EDT: Phoenix launches three missiles, two of which destroy Spirit and Opportunity.

    June 2, 2009, 9:16 p.m. EDT: Third missile enters Earth's atmosphere and detonates. Earth begins nuclear winter.

    1. Re:Skyne.... I mean, Phoenix by Phroggy · · Score: 3, Funny

      Contract negotiations with Bruce Willis fell through. We're all doomed.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  12. Shaking appears to be bad for sensitive equipment by AlienIntelligence · · Score: 5, Funny

    I was just reading yesterday that
    when the scientists dumped too much
    material to be processed and then
    subsequently shook the lab to get
    some material, they may have caused
    the short that caused other delays.

    It was that first oven test that led to the problematic electrical short. The scoop dumped so much soil that it clogged a mesh screen filter over the oven. To break up the dirt, technicians shook the instrument for several days.

    Engineers think the shaking caused the short circuit, and an independent engineering group reported that the problem could happen again if an oven is turned on.

    Now, FTFA it says they were trying
    to shake the arm.

    Over the weekend, scientists sent the robotic arm instructions to pull the fork out of the ground and keep it vertical while moving it to the side and shaking any excess soil off of it.

    However, the movement was forcing the robotic arm to twist its wrist too far. The robot realized that it was about to damage itself so it moved the other way and then realized that it no longer had the proper coordinates for what to do next, so it left the fork sticking up in the air, stuck its scoop in the ground and stalled itself.

    I propose:
    Limit the shaking of the expensive
    and difficult to replace robotic device.

    -AI

    --
    For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
  13. Obligatory clippy. by plasmacutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    what if this kind of code makes it into every piece of space equipment, and then by some fluke we are faced with the possibility of breaking a robotic wrist to deflect a space rock off an earth intercept course.

    They should at least have a little clippy pop up and say "it looks like you want to break my robotic arm, are you sure you want to do that?" "are you absolutely sure?"

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  14. Re:Does anyone else think... by Jellybob · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This sort of thing can be done autonomously in all the Japanese car factories that I know. And much faster.

    The difference between the Mars lander and a car building robot is one of function.

    The car building robot is programmed to do one task. It spends all day, every day, welding specific spots, on a car which is in a specific location.

    The Mars landers have to content with an unknown environment, where they could be asked to do a wide variety of things, with any number of possible consequences.

  15. Happens to slashdotters too... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Incidentally, I have often had to shut down my browser to protect my wrist.

  16. Postal My Ass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    As a postal worker who has actually worked on sorting machines I can tell you know nothing about them (they don't stop if there are 2 addresses, magazines are presorted or sorted separately, and no mail has bar codes).

    So...taking into account you blaring ignorance at how the post office runs I assume your story is correct and you were a postal worker.

    1. Re:Postal My Ass by camperdave · · Score: 2, Informative

      no mail has bar codes

      *Cough* POSTNET *cough*

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  17. Sheer Luck? by bwcbwc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They're just lucky that the original system programmers, designers and testers that developed the fault detection code were better at their jobs than the mission programmers who fed the bad instructions to the lander. If it had been the other way around, misery and teeth-gnashing would have ensued.

    --
    We are the 198 proof..
  18. In other news... by ShannaraFan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...my Roomba, on a daily basis, recognizes stairs as a threat and refuses to fall down them. I guess I don't see the "big deal" here, sounds like a built-in protective measure worked as expected. The technology is no less awesome, but still, it functioned AS DESIGNED.

  19. Stephen Colbert by EnOne · · Score: 2, Funny

    Some needs to get that Mars Lander a 'WRISTSTRONG' bracelet.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wriststrong

    --
    Calvin:Do you believe in the devil? Hobbes:I'm not sure man needs the help.