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Yale Students' Lawsuit Unmasks Anonymous Trolls
palegray.net writes "Two female Yale law school students have used the courts to ascertain the identities of otherwise anonymous posters to an Internet forum, with the intent of prosecuting them for hateful remarks left on the boards. At a minimum, the posters' future legal careers are certainly jeopardized by these events. While I'm not certainly not supporting or encouraging hateful speech online, these controversial actions hold potentially far-reaching consequences for Internet privacy policy and free speech." According to the linked Wired Law article, "The women themselves have gone silent, and their lawyers — two of whom are now themselves being sued — are not talking to the press."
....is serious business.
A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking
Hateful speech is not illegal. False claims that substantially harm a person ARE illegal under slander/libel law. This law applies whether the comments are online or on the playground.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
TFA makes it sound like these women are all upset because some asshat on the internet made a comment about how some women should be raped. Now, granted, that's an asshole thing to say, but if that's all that is going on here, they have no reasonable grounds to be suing. It's someone's right to be an asshole, for better or for worse.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
This is a pretty straightforward bit of libel...Even on the internets you have to be careful if you're explicitly slandering someone by name.
Illegal is illegal, and if these monkeys were dumb enough to put up all this crap under handles that they accessed from their homes, then they're screwed, and it's hard to see how they ought not be.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
Hmmmm?
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Internet privacy policy
Expect none
Free Speech
Slander and libel are illegal
Just about covers those two concerns.
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Offensive speech is still free, so long as it is a matter of opinion and not fact. I can say 'John is a jerk' and be protected by the first amendment because it is not libel if it is my opinion of somebody. If I say 'John has herpes' (and he doesn't) that is libel because it's a demonstrable, objective state that can be proven to be untrue, rather than a difference of opinion. Threats aren't protected speech either. I don't know why this is a big deal, some people made threats and were given what they were due. I'd expect the same to be done to anybody who made threats. If it were just libel I might be more concerned, as the effects of libel on the internet are less clearly defined. Libel is more 'effective' between people in meatspace because of reasonable differences in the level of trust. I simply wouldn't trust every nasty rumor on the internet as a matter of what I would think of as common sense, but I might trust the same rumors from a close associate in person.
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
There's a big difference between saying "So-and-so's business practices are suspect" and saying "So-and-so gave me herpes and I'm going to kill them."
This wouldn't be too bad if potential employers and romantic interests weren't so damn nosey -- imagine kicking ass in a job interview for a good position only to discover that you were turned down because your psychotic, jealous ex with a lot of time on their hands gamed Google(or created a fake MySpace page) and made you out to be a drunk, zoophile, or worse!
Dosen't matter if the incendiary posts were written by people called "HitlerHitlerHitler" and "GoatseFan1" -- the hiring manager may think, "Hmm, he/she sure does have a lot of enemies" or "I'd rather not have all that controversy attached to somebody who works for me." Same applies to potential romantic interests.
This classic "slippery slope" argument is baseless.
Calling for the rape of two women is hateful. There is no gray area here. There's nothing sacred about this "speech" that deserves to be protected, nor do the authors deserve any protection. Racism, sexism, homophobia and other forms of oppression need to be rooted out of society. Allowing these hateful ideas to be propagated anonymously is harmful to society and the oppressed minorities they target.
Revealing the identities of the authors isn't going to lead to the widespread revocation of people's free speech rights. However, it might just teach some neanderthals to keep their disgusting mouths shut.
I think this points to how anonymity is *usually* used for evil, instead of good like most geeks think about it.
One lawsuit can't prove that something is "usually" true or false. What it shows is that in at least 2 cases (one for each of the trolls) anonymity is used for evil. You need a lot more than 2 cases to say that the majority of anonymous people on the internet are using it for evil
Using that logic I can make any speech illegal and exposed to retribution. Either Free Speech is an absolute right, or it is no right at all -- there is surprisingly little gray area in -between.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Even before Autoadmit was around and he was in HS and college. Talk about someone who should be sodomized. If you can get the stick out of the way first.
When this came around the first time, I was not at all surprised he was involved.
The hell they wouldn't.
Example: Yesterday I turned on the radio and heard a rap singer threaten to kill someone.
Example: Last week at the bar, a lady told me she was going to "Rape my dick with her mouth".
Example: I heard a group of athletes say that they were going to "Kill the other team".
Example: I was playing an online video game and several people said they were going to kill me, rape me, or do other very nasty things. I called them 'tasty cakes' and said I was going to shove pinecones up their asses.
So you see, this is entirely situational. There is, from what I can tell, no proof of WHO actually posted the comments, just that the comments were posting using the accounts/user names that were registered to those people. There is a big difference.
At the end of the day, you do NOT have any right to Not be Offended. Especially on the internet.
What does being a woman have to do with anything? Isn't that a bit sexist in itself? Why aren't *all* people's rights more important? Why only women?
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Fuck you, Lawyers.
Love, AC.
Fucking bitches.
Granted, hate speech is a somewhat subjective issue,
What body is going to decide what exactly is hate speech on the Internet?
Oddly enough, there is a body whose job is to determine the facts on matters that are somewhat subjective, and alledged to be harmful. That body is called "a jury."
...please be careful with phrases like "womens' rights to not feel threatened."
No one has the right to not feel threatened. Under most circumstances you have the right to not be harmed, and under some circumstances you have the right to not be threatened. But there is a lot of jurisprudence about "true threats" that suggests a threat must be credible (among other things) before you have a right to silence someone or claim damages against them.
I don't know the context of this "threat", not having read the forum in question, but what do these women do when someone says "Fuck you" to them at a party or driving a car? Do they go running for a lawyer? In both cases, the threat would be much more credible than some anonymous net poster.
Infuriate left and right
I think you are missing the point. This isn't about suing for being offended, or using the law to hit back at someone for saying something mean. The anonymous postings in question clearly meet the legal threshold for libel (accusing someone of having an STD is automatically considered libel without proof of damages in most jurisdictions, I believe), and may meet the legal threshold for threats. These are actions which have been illegal, and legally punishable, for centuries. That they take place on the Internet makes no qualitative difference, and shouldn't.
It is standard and reasonable for courts to issue subpoenas in order to ascertain the identity of someone who has broken the law.
The main differences here from printed libel to online libel are 1) that the publisher (owner of the web site) is, in many cases, likely to be off the hook, because hosts of online forums are not usually considered responsible for what those forums contain unless they control their contents (or fail to respond to DMCA requests); and 2) the reasonable expectation of damages is actually higher than it would be in print-- consider that, say, a New York Times op-ed that appeared only in print form and accused you of something vile and damaging to your reputation might be read by a few hundred thousand people and remain forever unread by all 6 billion or so people who never happen to encounter that day's paper. With the expectation that any potential employer will Google your name to see what turns up, however, the audience for online public libel is unlimited.
I don't see anything unreasonable or controversial here; the only thing wrong was originally including the host of the web site in the lawsuit, which probably was an understandable mistake given that we don't have many years of precedent yet for who is responsible in what sorts of online offenses.
No such thing. A woman, or a man, for that matter, has a right not to *be* threatened, and if you believe that statement to be actual threat, that is one thing. But you cannot seriously make us legally responsible for other people's feelings.
Fuck that. Anonymity is usually used for good. I generally post anonymously and do not do any of the negative things ascribed to those in the article. I also do not try to use the courts to obtain information about other posters on the internet, even when I find their commentary offensive, threatening, and of questionable legality were I to press charges. But, then again, I am not a law student trying to make a name for myself at the expense of freedom of expression. It is sickening that this was allowed in a civil case.
If you leave a bomb anonymously we'd all want you tracked.
Both hate speech and the bomb are an attack. So why not, freedom of speech shouldn't really enter into it unless what is said is true.
So if they posted something true as a judge that would be my requirement. Show me that it is a lie in which case I'll pass the order to bring them to be held accountable. Otherwise if it is truth well pants you can't sue over the truth (can you?)
Besides when was it freedom of anonymous speech?
"Whenever you do a thing, act as if all the world were watching."
Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
Whats the EEEEEVVVVIIIIILLLL you can inflict in an internet forum?
Terrorist threats? Exposing personal id-related information of an enemy, such as their SSN, bank account passwords, etc? What about posting where a controversial politician's children play after school?
Is someone immediately less dangerous when they click the "Anonymous" button?
I saw this more as a Clear and Present Danger argument, although I am not sure if that is how it was presented. Yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, and so forth. Threatening to rape and murder a classmate is a pretty good way to have ones privacy justifiably suspended to ensure the safety of those threatened.
People just need to learn that just because you said it on the internet doesn't mean the statement carries no weight.
"Fuck you" is not nearly as threatening as naming a person, especially a female, and then discussing how they should be sodomized.
I'm not sure those two are analogous. Without having reread the case, I seem to recall that the women in question did not seek out the forums in question. Their pictures were put on the board, and then the comments started flying. When they then joined the board, (again, afair) seeking to have the pictures removed, they were then subject to even harsher comments, including the rape ones.
You, on the other hand, have joined the game yourself, and aditionally you have joined the chat, which is an optional extra, of your own volition. Aditionally, while "I'm going to rape you" might be a breach of conduct on Xbox Live (I don't know if this is the case), in most fps' this is the 'norm' where you attempt to psyche out your opponent. No adult of a reasonable mind will expect the speaker to seek out your address (is this even possible through Xbox Live?) and hunt you down.
However, on this board, not only were the women's pictures posted, their names and addresses were posted, and considering the vitriol spewed forth on the boards, even I, being a VERY common sense kind of guy, would not put it beyond the assholes and idiots* on the boards to actually following through on their threats**
Of course, I'm not in any way, shape or form a lawyer or had any law training. Hell, I'm not even from the US.
* In my humble and non-medical/-psychological opinion, since I am not refering to mental retardation
** Considering the writing, the constant agitation by the other posters etc, I do not consider the comments "innocent", "joking", "ironic", "sarcastic" or even "humourous"
Just as important - the court found in favour of the plaintiffs, so obviously the judge (jury?) found the threats to be credible and the derogatory comments to be libel. If you do not like that ruling, you need to write your congressmen and tell them why. Don't email, don't fax. Send them a physical letter, preferably handwritten. At least that's what the usual comments on the subject around here advices.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
There's actually a huge grey area. Time, place and manner are frequently taken into consideration by courts, as well as the content or commerciality of the speech, and the target of the speech, and the person doing the speaking. Free speech and first amendment rights are always brought up when a city wants to restrict sex-based businesses. However, since they're seen as commercial, that speech has less value in the public forum than a debate on our government's public policy. Governments can therefore, regulate the proper time and place for obscene or inappropriate speech (no adult bookstores within 500 foot of a school or church). Also, the manner of the speech can be regulated also. Public airwaves, i.e. radio and broadcast TV can be regulated by he FCC because the airwaves are a public resource and are leased by the federal government. That's why they can require mature material to be aired after 9:00. They also used to require a set amount of material to "benefit the public good", which is why radio and TV would air church services late saturday night and Sunday mornings, and why there were so many PSAs. Those rules have since been relaxed, but the rationale is still used. Public protests, even political ones, are frequently moved to protest areas, or required to have parade permits. This is to ensure that the protests don't cause a public nuisance or hazard. The same thing goes for the infamous "fire" in a crowded theatre.
There's whole books written on commercial speech - what's true (100 calories per serving), what's false (microsoft eats babies) , and what's puffery (Ford trucks are the greatest). Commercial speech gets less protection because it's used to sell things - not further the public discourse.
The New York Times Supreme Court Case re: Free speech held that when a public official was being criticized, the newspaper only had to refrain from saying things that it knew or should have known were false. Other cases have said that when the defamed person wasn't a public figure (i.e. a public official, a celebrity, or a person who sought the public eye), the bar against defamation was lower than when considering defamation against a non-public figure. And simply saying "Joe has herpes" may not be libel, depending on the context. Someone doing a comedy routine making jokes about Joe who says that Joe has herpes wouldn't be libel because no one would take it seriously - there's no "defamatory sting". You say that Joe has herpes in the middle of a medial report on NPR and it's probably defamation. That's why Howard Stern always has someone laughing at everything he says, to get people to thing it's a joke. And just stating that something's an opinion doesn't remove the slander - it's what people actually think that matters.
And don't forget, the truth is always a defense to a charge of defamation - if Joe has a cold sore and I write a story about how Joe has herpes, well, too bad for Joe, because it's true that Joe has herpes.
Regarding the threats, the common law varies from state to state, but you usually need a pattern of harassment or the imminent threat of harm. Standing in front of someone with a gun saying "I'm going to kill you" would likely be threatening, whereas saying it on the internet probably wouldn't because there's no imminent threat of bodily harm. (In New York, the person actually has to make some physical motion indicating that they are about to harm you - as my Torts professor used to say "words alone are not enough").
Normally I would agree with you, but you are misinformed about what really happened (I admit the article doesn't say much).
This story has been on slashdot a few times. Here's what really happened, if I remember correctly:
- Guys posts pictures of women and comment on the forum (she's a 9! she's a 4! such a bitch i'd rape her! etc.)
- Women ask site owner to remove pictures and offending comments
- Site owner laughs at them, and informs posters that the women in question asked for the pictures to be removed
- Guys don't like it ; they literally start stalking these girls, take more pictures of them (at the gym?), and start posting threats.
- Women sue.
Read this again. These girls got stalked and threatened. I don't care if it's on the internet or elsewhere ; when someone stalks you, takes pictures, and threatens to assault and rape you, it is wrong, and these women have a case. The whole thing about it affecting their career etc was only true at the beginning (the first pictures and comments posted). This thing got a lot more serious afterwards.
Huh? Okay, let's do a little experiment here. You must have a female relative or acquaintance somewhere who can get online. Now, send her an email or post on a forum she visits a lot of insults and threaten to assault/rape her. Indicate that you know who she is in real life. See how she reacts.
Now, try to imagine how you'd feel if exactly that happened to a woman you happen to care about, like, say, your mom or a sister. "Idle threats"? Sure, a threat to rape your mom or sister might be idle, but I'd bet you'd take it seriously. I know that if it were me and I found out who he was, I'd want his ass in jail for threatening me with bodily harm. It's little different from a guy calling you and telling you he's coming to your house to rape you. Simply put, it's not a matter of childish threats. It would be pretty damn scary, in fact.
Christ, the number of guys here defending these guys rights to threaten women online makes me wonder how many wannabe-rapists there are on slashdot. If I ever meet any of you in real life, keep in mind that I'm a redneck from the southern US and I will shoot you if you try anything. Yeah, we get a little upset when rape threats start flying around. What did you expect, them (or me) to just giggle and ask if we can get you another beer? Jesus.
I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.
AC's name is Dave Bubbleshits & he lives over in the blue house behind the college. He's a dumb bitch-ho who should be raped daily.
There's a huge difference between anonymous flamebait directed at other anonymous people. These guys weren't directing it that way. They were giving specifics, in some cases names. This wasn't your normal trolling, this was cyberstalking & cyberbullying at it's worst. Done in person, it would be bad enough, but 4 years later, those comments are still the first thing anyone - including a prospective employer - sees when they Google these women's names. A libel is definitely called for here.
Most of the time the person who is drunk and naked at a frat party isn't the one posting pictures on the internet. It would be impossible to count the number of times an ex-boyfriend post a passionate private video to an online porn site, or a passerby post a youtube video of an embarrassing moment.
Of course, people need to be careful about where and when they get drunk and stupid (never?) and who they allow to video them doing the nasty (no one,) but that doesn't make it right to post private moments, nor does it mean that the victims of that kind of invasion of privacy deserve the consequences.
If anything, I think it's a problem with our society that we are so ready to ostracize someone for being human. Most of us have done some stupid things we regret. Those that have not are either lieing or boring as hell. Few of us were caught on video doing it.
If I ever meet any of you in real life, keep in mind that I'm a redneck from the southern US and I will shoot you if you try anything.
Now who's making threats? Should you go to jail?
-- "Oh. This guy again."
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While I can see your point, I don't think that bringing up a scenario of what you can or cannot do in an airport demonstrates a valid counter point.
I think it addresses both points brought up by the GP. See this quote:
1. There are a lot of women with those names. So this could not be considered a threat against any specific person.
My example statement is not a threat against any specific establishment.
2. It does not say they will be, or imply that they will be. The word "should" implies a statement of opinion, not intent.
My example statement does not state that any crowded place will be bombed, just that it should be.
The example is not specific to an airport, either. You could say such a thing within earshot of just about anyone and be considered threatening.
It's your right to be offensive. There are no laws against that.
True. But there are laws against slander, libel, stalking and assault. All of which were, arguably, committed by the posters under an assumption of anonymity. I read a lot of their posts a year or so ago when this hit /. the first time, and these guys were definitely over the line of offensive.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
This is not about privacy. It is also not, as the submitter wants us to think, about "Freedom of Speech".
Freedom of speech is the right to say what you think if you don't thereby infringe on other people's higher valued rights (by committing libel). It's not the right to hide behind a false identity and make libelous claims.
It is also not "privacy" to go out in public, use a fake name and yell something, independent of whether it's true or not.
Privacy is the right to decide for yourself how much of the "things you don't do in public" becomes public (that's a vague definition, given).
There is no reason to protect the identity of trolls. There is a reason to protect their right to say their honest opinion, however stupid it may be -- but not their wish to make libelous claims and go unpunished.
I don't know the context of this "threat", not having read the forum in question
There's your first problem - before passing judgment, it would be good to do at least a bit of cursory research.
but what do these women do when someone says "Fuck you" to them at a party or driving a car? Do they go running for a lawyer? In both cases, the threat would be much more credible than some anonymous net poster.
And there's your second problem - in spite of admitting that you've read nothing about this, including apparently the article, you're ready to make ad hominem attacks.
On the off chance you read this, the grandparent poster was wrong - the threats were graphic and specific, listing the girls' names, photos, and class and gym schedules. That becomes a credible threat.
Other people will put pictures of you, drunk and naked, on THEIR web pages.
The right way to keep your reputation clean is not to try to hush up everything you do, but not to do things that reflect badly on you in the first place... duh.
I piss off bigots.
It shouldn't. However, I would suggest there are times when society and our good senses should over rule law. You don't sue every person who wanders into your yard for damaging your property (grass/landscaping), nor do you sue everyone who threatens to beat you up. I think if there was more credibility to the accusations of herpes or more of an indication of a real threat, I would sympathize more with this case. Instead, from what is written in TFA this sounds like Encyclopedia Dramatica style trolling. It's best to just let assholes be assholes until they actually do something to harm you. Otherwise you will waste your entire life fighting with assholes.
I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
It's one thing to troll a board anonymously and call other anonymous members names because it's quite apparent that sort of behavior is silly childish trolling, but it's a whole different thing when the trolling is targeted against someone's real name.
The damage is greatly worsened when you know both the anonymous troll and victim are related in some way geographically or attending the same university. That's when the threats become elevated from stupid trolling to a real threat because the troll has demonstrated he has the desire, ability, and means to carry out that threat. Then consider the troll has the advantage of surprise because the victim has no idea who that person is. It could be a lab partner, a teaching assistant, the person sitting next to her in class. There's no way to know. At this point we're way past harmless trolling. We're in the realm of felony behavior.
There is a very long history of men sexually victimizing women. Idiot trolls, such as these, use that knowledge to magnify the hurtful effects of their threats. It demonstrated they were consciously and willingly performing this behavior. Conscious intent plays a huge factor when determining if something is a crime. It clearly was in this case.
And finally, even if these trolls weren't intending to carry out these threats, one could argue they were acting to recruit others to do it on their behalf. So now the victim has to worry about not one individual, but all individuals.
I'll tell you this: for those women, that situation was a fucking scary place to be in.
Camping on quad since 1996.
Your claim that the web poster may be halfway around the world is less than credible, considering these men posted photos of these women at the gym.
What's really, really annoying is that these right-wingers who think it's OK to threaten to rape women because it's "not actually a threat", are probably the VERY SAME people who think that the police should be allowed to arrest someone at an airport for having a suspicious-looking beard and praying in Arabic.
Female Prison Rape in NY
Let's see if I can follow your logic here. Pseudo-Anonymous people on a blog post photos, home address, email addresses, telephone numbers, and full legal names, of women accompanied by death threats and rape threats. That's perfectly ok.
The women seek to have the identities of the people who posted their identities revealed, that's horrible and makes them asswipes?
Can you explain where you're coming from here, because honestly I'm not following you. Why is it ok for the "let's rape the bitches" crowd to post the names and other personal information of the women, but it isn't ok for us to know the identities of the people doing the posting?
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
First they came for the trolls and I was not a troll so I said nothing...
Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?