Knights Templar Sue the Pope

pdragon04 writes "According to The Register, "the Knights Templar are demanding that the Vatican give them back their good name and, possibly, billions in assets into the bargain, 700 years after the order was brutally suppressed by a joint venture between the Pope and the King of France..."." I wonder what a holy grail goes for with 700 years of compound interest.

Comments

No legal standing to sue

[elrous0]

The real Templars were disbanded in the early 14th century. These claimants are nothing more than another bunch of modern wannabes (founded in 1804). They have no legal standing to sue. And since the only immortal survivor of the templar persecution died in "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade," I somehow doubt they're going to be able to find anyone who was an actual victim to join their lawsuit.

Re:No legal standing to sue

[neokushan]

If that succeeds, I'm going to rename myself "satan" and then sue the Vatican to get them to give me back my good name.

Re:No legal standing to sue

[tinkertim]

Hello! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to settle.

Re:No legal standing to sue

[Tubal-Cain]

In more ways than one.

statute of limitations?

[cptnapalm]

I'm thinking that 700 years might be a bit past the statute of limitations...

Re:statute of limitations?

[pitchpipe]

I'm thinking that 700 years might be a bit past the statute of limitations...

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Yes the Vatican Is So Pure & Holy

[eldavojohn]

I wonder what a holy grail goes for with 700 years of compound interest.

I'm much more interested in how you make up for the lives & civilizations your organization destroyed.

I'm not saying this is true but Newsweek/MSNBC ran a story on pagan relics stored beneath the Vatican. I've also read and heard that many Native American (both North & South) relics and documents were shipped back to the Vatican to be stored under it so they could study heathenism and combat it. This was after their owners were either converted or burned/shot.

I would think that the Catholic church could at least (as a sign of good faith) return these to their descendants or at the very least release them to a museum with all the information they have on it so that the rest of us can gain insight to their culture & religion. Of course, if this were true, I don't think the museum donations would be worth the black eye.

"the Knights Templar are demanding that the Vatican give them back their good name and, possibly, billions in assets into the bargain, 700 years after the order was brutally suppressed by a joint venture between the Pope and the King of France..."

The funny thing is that the Vatican probably has billions in capital at its disposal. I always got a kick out of the pope ruling a small nation-state in Europe (with its own currency, mind you) telling me to be more like Jesus. The same Jesus who said in Matthew 19:21

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Or what Luke said (12:23)

Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Or John 3:17

If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?

The funny thing is I could go on all day finding quotes from most major religions ... Like Buddha or Gandhi, I'm a huge fan of this Jesus guy. It's 99% of the people who purport to follow him that manage to genuinely fuck up the world.

Re:Yes the Vatican Is So Pure & Holy

[kahei]

...and that was rabid Catholic-bashing in post 4, still standing by for Christianity-bashing and something about open source.

Re:Yes the Vatican Is So Pure & Holy

[192939495969798999]

As long as we're quoting from the Bible, why not disband the whole church system using Matthew 6?

"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

  2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Prayer
  5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

Re:Yes the Vatican Is So Pure & Holy

[sm62704]

I'm much more interested in how you make up for the lives & civilizations your organization destroyed.

I'm more interestded in how the list you pointed to is in any way relevant.

1492: Christopher Columbus discovers the New World.
1493: With the Inter caetera, Pope Alexander VI awards sole colonial rights over most of the New World to Spain.
January 22, 1506: Kaspar von Silenen and first contingent of Swiss mercenaries enter the Vatican during the reign of Pope Julius II. Traditional date of founding of the Swiss Guards.
April 18, 1506: Pope Julius II lays cornerstone of New Basilica of St. Peter.
1508: Michaelangelo starts painting the Sistine Chapel ceiling.
October 31, 1517: Martin Luther posts his 95 Theses, protesting the sale of indulgences.
1516: Saint Sir Thomas More publishes "Utopia" in Latin.
1519: Spanish conquest of Mexico by Hernando Cortes.
January 3, 1521: Martin Luther finally excommunicated by Pope Leo X in the bull Decet Romanum Pontificem.
1521: Baptism of the first Catholics in the Philippines, the first Christian nation in Southeast Asia. This event is commemorated with the feast of the Sto. Niño.

etc. What do any of these have to do with destroying people's lives?

I would think that the Catholic church could at least (as a sign of good faith) return these to their descendants or at the very least release them to a museum with all the information they have on it so that the rest of us can gain insight to their culture & religion.

I don't see how anyone could disagree with that. "Thou shalt not steal," not even if you are the Catholic Chruch.

The funny thing is that the Vatican probably has billions in capital at its disposal.

More pathetic than funny IMO, especially considering Matthew 19:23 - "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God"

Never trust a preacher who wears a five thousand dollar suit preaching in a million dollar church.

It's 99% of the people who purport to follow him that manage to genuinely fuck up the world.

Amen to that. Pat Robertson has converted more Christians to athiesm than all the athiests at slashdot combined. Most of the people you find in any church worship money, not God.

Re:Yes the Vatican Is So Pure & Holy

[Hal_Porter]

No one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions; he had money as well.
Margaret Thatcher

Re:Yes the Vatican Is So Pure & Holy

[D Ninja]

The funny thing is I could go on all day finding quotes from most major religions ... Like Buddha or Gandhi, I'm a huge fan of this Jesus guy. It's 99% of the people who purport to follow him that manage to genuinely fuck up the world.

I'd love to see where you got your statistics.

I don't disagree with you. Christians have done quite a good job of messing up the world. Heck...Christians are people too - we mess up. But, then again, we are all part of this earth, so we all hold responsibility for its state...it's not just Christians (and people of other faiths) who are at fault. The problem as I see it is, and as you very nicely pointed out, religions tend to be caught in their hypocrisy which makes them look that much worse. (What's worse - someone who does something bad, or someone who says to do good and still does the bad thing?)

I am also not disagreeing with you that all of that capital could not be used to help millions (billions?) of people in this world, and it's not. I am with you 100% on that.

With all that said, what I find interesting is that you quote passage after passage in the Bible, condemning Christians (and religions) about not being perfect, yet you forget one passage...

Matthew 7:5 - You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

I challenge you that, instead of complaining about how others are not doing the right thing, go out and do the right thing yourself. How much better would that make the world?

Re:Yes the Vatican Is So Pure & Holy

[Bearpaw]

YEAH, how come Jesus didn't post the sermon on the mount for all of us to modify and improve upon instead of dictating it like Microsoft would do?

It's pretty obvious that the original source code has been lost, and the current source is a combination of ignorant reverse engineering, clumsy hacks, and viruses.

Re:Yes the Vatican Is So Pure & Holy

[kalirion]

Great. Before we had spelling Nazis and Grammar Nazis, now it's Bible Nazis.

Is nothing sacred?

Off hand, I'd say spelling, grammar, and The Bible.

DNS hack!

[hansraj]

I think the traffic to the register is being redirected to the onion!

What about the native americans?

[PC and Sony Fanboy]

So, assuming this suceeds ... can the native americans sue europe for defiling their land, and ruining their culture? I mean, if europe hadn't sent over all those rejects, the native americans would rule the (un)known world...

Or, maybe they could just sue the USA for making them look silly - I mean, those native headdresses don't look silly to people who are native - just everyone else.

Re:What about the native americans?

[Ziest]

The English deported their religious fanatics to America and their criminals to Australia. I think we, the Americans, got the short end of the stick on that one. I want to sue the English government for dumping their religious nut jobs here. I'm going to admit videos of the 700 club as evidence of this maleficence.

Re:What about the native americans?

[negRo_slim]

Okay I got modded troll I can live with that, but still the Europeans didn't send anyone. By most accounts it looks like a voluntary processes regardless of whether the group was well liked back home.

Their leadership came from a religious congregation who had fled a volatile political environment in the East Midlands of England for the relative calm of the Netherlands to preserve their religion. Concerned with losing their cultural identity, the group later arranged with English investors to establish a new colony in North America.

From Wikipedia, Or perhaps even more insightful...

In 1617, discouraged by economic difficulties, the pervasive Dutch influence on their children, and their inability to secure civil autonomy, the congregation voted to emigrate to America. Through the Brewster family's friendship with Sir Edwin Sandys, treasurer of the London Company, the congregation secured two patents authorizing them to settle in the northern part of the company's jurisdiction. Unable to finance the costs of the emigration with their own meager resources, they negotiated a financial agreement with Thomas Weston, a prominent London iron merchant. Fewer than half of the group's members elected to leave Leiden. A small ship, the Speedwell, carried them to Southampton, England, where they were to join another group of Separatists and pick up a second ship. After some delays and disputes, the voyagers regrouped at Plymouth aboard the 180-ton Mayflower. It began its historic voyage on Sept. 16, 1620, with about 102 passengers--fewer than half of them from Leiden.

From mayflowerfamilies.com

I still stand by my statement, go take a history class.

Re:What about the native americans?

[indifferent children]

Not so fast; Georgia (USA) was a British penal colony. The Australians didn't get all of the criminals.

Re:What about the native americans?

[baldass_newbie]

Not so fast; Georgia (USA) was a British penal colony. The Australians didn't get all of the criminals.

In fact, they only started using Australia when they lost Georgia. Australian settlement did not begin in earnest until @1800 if I recall correctly.

Re:What about the native americans?

[Grant_Watson]

If this lawsuit succeeds the native americans could only sue the catholic church for slander and defamation eg: saying they had no souls and could be slaughtered like animals or however manifest destiny is justified.

As a Protesant, I can't recall ever having read anything about Rome doing *any* of that. From the papal bull Sublimus Dei of 1537:

We, who, though unworthy, exercise on earth the power of our Lord and seek with all our might to bring those sheep of His flock who are outside into the fold committed to our charge, consider, however, that the Indians are truly men and that they are not only capable of understanding the Catholic Faith but, according to our information, they desire exceedingly to receive it. Desiring to provide ample remedy for these evils, We define and declare by these Our letters, or by any translation thereof signed by any notary public and sealed with the seal of any ecclesiastical dignitary, to which the same credit shall be given as to the originals, that, notwithstanding whatever may have been or may be said to the contrary, the said Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians, are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ; and that they may and should, freely and legitimately, enjoy their liberty and the possession of their property; nor should they be in any way enslaved; should the contrary happen, it shall be null and have no effect.

Re:What about the native americans?

[philspear]

Okay I got modded troll I can live with that, but still the Europeans didn't send anyone. By most accounts it looks like a voluntary processes regardless of whether the group was well liked back home.

This is slashdot. No one was upset with the historical inaccuracy, nor the insulting of americans. The troll moderation was for the insinuation that community colleges were for idiots who don't know history.

Re:What about the native americans?

[phoenixwade]

The Knights Templar, as parent and GP mentioned, are very unlikely to be making any material claims.

Ouch! It almost sounds like there are no consequences for perpetrating a successful genocide.

Well Duh!

I'm reminded of a quote from the mini-series " Shogun":

  Toronaga asked Pilot to name any excuse that justified making war on your Lord, the Pilot responded "Winning"

Re:What about the native americans?

[bwhaley]

Hmm, I beg to differ. While certainly the initial population of the American colonies was voluntary, convicts were indeed sent in later years. From NPR:

"In 1718, the British Parliament passed the Transportation Act, under which England began sending its imprisoned convicts to be sold as indentured servants in the American colonies. While the law provoked outrage among many colonists -- Benjamin Franklin equated it to packing up North American rattlesnakes and sending them all to England -- the influx of ex-convicts provided cheap and immediate labor for many planters and merchants. After 1718, approximately 60,000 convicts, dubbed "the King's passengers," were sent from England to America. Ninety percent of them stayed in Maryland and Virginia. Although some returned to England once their servitude was over, many remained and began their new lives in the colonies."

This data also appears in the excellent, "Benjamin Franklin: An American Life" by Walter Isaacson.

Re:What about the native americans?

[Pharmboy]

Georgia also declared independence on January 19, 1861, but that one didn't work out quite so well.

Re:What about the native americans?

[Grandiloquence]

After 1718, approximately 60,000 convicts, dubbed "the King's passengers," were sent from England to America. Ninety percent of them stayed in Maryland and Virginia.

Of course, descendants of those people still live in Maryland and Virginia, but instead of being called "The King's Passengers", they're now known as "The US Government".

I propose a deal.

[kahei]

They go back and *actually* liberate the Holy Land, and *then* the Pope has to pay them all the golden doubloons in Christendom.

10% bonus doubloons for finding the True Cross. On second thoughts, 10% bonus for each True Cross found.

Heck, I'll even chip in a squadron of Turcopoles and some Genoese arbalesters.