Slashdot Mirror
FISA and Border Searches of Laptops
With the recent attention to the DHS's draconian policy on laptop searches at borders, a blog post by Steven Bellovin from last month is worth wider discussion. Bellovin extrapolates from the DHS border policy on physical electronic devices and asks why authorities wouldn't push to extend it to electronic data transfers. "...it would seem to make little difference if the information is 'imported' into the US via a physical laptop or via a VPN, or for that matter by a Web connection. The right to search a laptop for information, then, is equivalent to the right to tap any and all international connections, without a warrant or probable cause. (More precisely, one always has a constitutional protection against 'unreasonable' search and seizure; the issue is what the definition of 'unreasonable' is.)"
I have a teletype connected to a tin can that crosses the border with a long peice of twine, connected to another tin can connected to a modem.
What Would Jesus Think Was Unreasonable?
Much as I agree that there will probably be a change in course, rights, once take away, are very slow to return. I can foresee that a new president keen to lose his 'inexperienced' image would be reluctant to take that strong a stand against the powers that be at Langley, etc.
init 11 - for when you need that edge.
The government agrees that they should have the right to investigate each and every connection that goes in or out of the United States, no warrant required. It's impractical to actually watch every connection in real time, or to store them all, but they certainly believe they should have the option to investigate whichever connections they choose at a whim.
Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
No offense, but the ridiculous visa situation, warrant less searches and other issues certainly will secure the US borders.
After all, any country is safer if nobody wants to go and visit it anymore.
"I want everyone to remember why they need us" - liberties and freedoms that are eroded in the name of security and protection never seem to return once the threat is lifted again, and each one is another step on the path to Totalitarianism.
Since the Supreme Court has said that the Constitutional limits on Copyright, "for a limited time", that "limited" means whatever Congress says it means, then it follows that "unreasonable" means whatever Congress says it means, too.
The cops opened my unlocked garage and "had a look around", I guess that's reasonable. They searched my car because it was parked outside a dope house (I had no idea; my passengers were collecting money owed them by a slumlord they were cleaning houses for) as well as my person. I guess that's not unreasonable, either.
Why is it they had to amend the Constitution to outlaw alcohol, but not other drugs?
The Supreme court, in effect, says that the Constitutuon is meaningless. We, the people, no longer have any rights. And you can bet your wife's ass that they're already reading your mail and seeing who you connect to on the internet. The people running things today don't believe in the rule of law.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
The Constitution applies to any individual on U.S. soil, not just citizens.
Although, for purposes of border control, almost any search is considered lawful.
the best taxes are the ones that are labelled 'temporary', those are most certain to never disappear.
MP3 Search Engine
Here's my prediction, on record: this policy will be a real boon for micro laptop companies like Asus. Who is going to want to travel with an expensive laptop that can get snatched up by an avaristic or paranoid border cop? It bothers me to no end that they don't need due processes for this because I have a new MacBook Pro. The thing is worth $2,000 and is precisely the sort of thing that would become a target of something like this where the cops turned seized cars into a private car rental service for their own pleasure.
So I guess what'll happen is that people will take an Eee PC with them, and then download the data as needed from some offsite backup service. That, and the whole problem of people avoiding business travel to the United States.
"he next administration (assuming Obama wins) will probably be more interested in taking away our "treasure"."
Actually I hate to be the one to break it to you but your treasure is already gone. what is likely to happen is your going to get the bill for it by the next president.
In our (as a country) fear of Terrorism and our fear for the safety of our children, we are slowly strangling ourselves of our vitality. Soon, we as a country will be like scared little children hiding under our beds from a thunderstorm. And in the meantime, the rest of the World will eventually pass us by.
so.... please let me know either at admin@scareports.com or at the website ( oblig. link : here ) . You can post anonymously as well if you want....
There's a few interesting ones, a few boring ones but I NEED MORE !!!
The policy is over the line with the indefinite seizures; however, HISTORICALLY the government has always had the right to search anything entering its borders. I've got NO problem with that, particularly for non-US citizens. The indefinite crap has got to go, though - they need to be able to search laptop info a little better than that.
Whilst I liked visiting the USA, its increasing stance against visitors is becoming too invasive to care anymore.
The first time I was forced to electronically store my fingerprints on your systems for an unknown period of time was the start of the end.
How wrong we were to assume that bio passports were enough to subdue to spooks.
Have a 'nice' day!
From here : At a Senate hearing in June, Larry Cunningham, a New York prosecutor who is now a law professor, defended laptop searches--but not necessarily seizures--as perfectly permissible. Preventing customs agents from searching laptops "would open a vulnerability in our border by providing criminals and terrorists with a means to smuggle child pornography or other dangerous and illegal computer files into the country," Cunningham said.
What I want to know is who exactly "smuggles" child pornography around on a laptop. They may have it on their laptop, but they're not "smuggling" it into the country. They more than likely downloaded it from someplace that's already accessible to anyone in the country anyway.
You may be able to prosecute them for it, but it's not going to save any children. Anyone that wants it will just hide it better, and you'll end up arresting people that have a suspect image or three in their browser cache that they've probably never even seen. This is just more bullshit fear-mongering to further strip us of our liberties.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Yes and the other party will not stop pointing out how the Democrats increased taxes (to pay for it all) and people will buy into it electing Republican again in 4 years who then will continue to rape your rights and take your money. (Democrats and Republicans can be easily changed above)
As long as people do not start voting for an alternative, there will be no alternative. If you say that voting for an alternative will not work, please repair your democratic system before you try to export it.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Sec 2(a)(1) sums it up nicely:
Except as otherwise provided in this subsection, no search of the digital contents of the device or media may be based on the power of the United States to search a person and that person's possessions upon entry into the United States, unless that search is based on a reasonable suspicion regarding that person.
I forget where I read it, but I recently a news article that mentioned the "Streetlight Effect".
We all know the classic joke. A man is walking down the street when he sees a drunk, on his knees, looking for something under a streetlight. The man stops and asks, "What are you looking for?" and the drunk replies. "My keys." So the man gets down on his knees to help him find his keys.
After a half-hour of fruitless searching the man asks, "Well, where did you lose them?" and the drunk replies, "Over in that alley, but the light's better over here."
This sort of security theater reminds me of that joke.
We can't find Bin Laden. We can't stop al Qaeda. We can't (won't) secure our borders with Mexico. But we damn well make air travel a living hell for millions of innocent air travelers because, well, the light's better over here.
your laptop contains copywrite material, that you probably don't own. under us law you need the copywrite owner's permission to copy this. the border agent is violating copywrite law when he/she images your drive. if you have a login then that counts as a copywrite protection device, and that means a dmca violation as well. i'm surprised nobody has taken this to court yet.
You're kidding yourself if you seriously think Obama or McCain are going to so much as lift a finger to change this. Both of them believe in rule by the government, for the government. Why the hell would they want to fight to gain the powers of the US president only to give them up to the people?
Plus I assume you are referring to Obama, but lets not forget he voted for FISA. We as a people need to figure it out that charismatic != honest and to take whatever either candidate says with a very large grain of salt. Remember, they only care about your vote and will gladly promise you the moon to get it. You'd think we would have learned this with President Bush II promising us a classical conservative utopia yet delivering a neo-conservative hell, but I guess we're all a little slow on the uptake.
"Tax and spend" meets "borrow and spend." Who do you think will be paying for the Bush years, a leprechaun with a pot of gold?
It's not that the Bush admin had zero interest in being the party of balanced budgets, they had negative interest! Pushed the throttle all the way, man - he robbed you, me and everybody else. Record deficits, and do you think the Bush tax cuts would somehow never come home to roost? The perfect setup, "We Republicans cut your taxes, and look what the Democrats did they raised taxes." Well, duh.
Republican politicians know their constituency; people like you have short memories, no sense of history, and will vote 'em right back in to rob us all over again.
O lord, bless this thy holy hand grenade, that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.
Intercepting electronic communications would be the moral equivalent of copying your laptop's drive if the copy could be made without depriving you of the use of your laptop and/or delaying your crossing your borders. To date you can't copy a typical laptop's hard drive in the time it takes to move through the X-ray machine. At least, not cheaply.
If they take your laptop and as result you are without it for 15 minutes, or worse, so long that you miss your connecting flight, that's real damage over and above the privacy issues.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
How many low-rent laptops could be crammed with utterly useless information and sent back and forth, back and forth across the US border? Like any basically stupid, attack-trained creature these border-control idiots occasionally have to learn the lesson that when you piss off the boss too often, there are going to be consequences.
Thousands of man-hours wasted on trivia and the inevitable reaming they'll will eventually get from their elected masters, hopefully the loss of some upper-level jobs...now there's some consequences.
Being held accountable is the only thing these fascist half-wits really worry about.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
I would say sooner. What a lot of people have suggested to me is that the Bush administration wanted spending up to make it look like the economy was healthy, just until he got out of office. That is why they looked the other way whilst people were tossing out cheap credit. I think the Republicans want to lose this election so the bomb drops on a Democrat's watch.
Basically, he deliberately maxed out Obama's credit card for him and remortgaged the house, with the plan to later on call him fiscally irresponsible.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
Everyone quotes the Constitution and argues law.
Perhaps it would be better to consider a quotation from the Declaration of Independence. Remember that document? The one that put the whole lot of dirty laundry out for all to see and said:
"We Aren't Going to Stand for This Anymore"
(quotes, ed.)
Decades of abuse by a government out of control were a major cause of a war for independence. Could these same abuses, now at the hands of the current government be the seeds for a true revolution?
Looking back over the decades of dirty politics and lies perpetrated by America's elected officials and their bureaucracies, I am able to see at least some glimmer of acting in the common good. I'm not saying that it was all proper and that it was not often criminal. I am saying that I see nothing in the last 20 years that was done for any purpose but to line the pockets of a politician or corporation at our expense and to our detriment.
As though the rape of our financial well being is not sufficient, now the government seeks to remove any and all means to communicate in privacy, and to do without due process or allowing us any capability to seek redress.
I think that perhaps you should all read the Declaration of Independence. Perhaps with a mind for a couple slight updates? I think we need to publish a new one.
"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed.
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is in the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security."
It should be noted that Ron Paul and Eliot Engel sponsored legislation on July 31 to
ensure that a traveler entering the United States would be subject to searches of their data and digital equipment only if a border agent has a reasonable suspicion to believe the traveler is or is about to be engaged in criminal activity.
Oh that Ron Paul, what a whack job! It's a shame he doesn't realize that the system is already fucked beyond our control and that he's simply giving those Americans foolish enough to listen to him a false glimmer of hope.
Your brain is not a computer.
Nah. Canada has a system similar to this, and yet no matter who I vote for, every time there's a legislation vote that matters, the US Government gets 30% of the vote, US Industry gets 50%, Canadian Industry gets 10%, and the other 10% is on vacation.
If you want fiscally responsible policies, vote Democrat.
Right... that'll help. Social Security, Welfare, Medicare and Medicaid exceed the entire military AND discretional budget (not just the Iraq war) and all are horribly broken.
Get your ignorant head out of your knee-jerk, liberally biased ass, do some actual fact finding/checking and come to the realization that ALL big government is wasteful, inefficient, deceitful and corrupt.
By the way... the interest on our national debt alone matches half of the figure you spew for the Iraq war. This expenditure is 100% waste every year that buys us *nothing* and it's all the result of f*ucked up presidential/congressional/senate decisions for the past eighty years. During which time no party other than democrat or republican has been in power.
if you really want fiscally responsible policies... vote them all out of office and start taking care of yourself for a change.
I will never live for sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
OK, so how do you explain the fact that the Democrats, who run both houses of congress and who are completely in control of budgeting and spending and the raising of money, have no interest in reigning in spending?
Well, in their defense, if the house passes a spending bill the Pres doesn't like, he just vetoes it and then cries out that the dems don't want to support the troops.
It's a shitty situation, and the dems are partly responsible, but they have an extremely slim majority (and can lost in the Senate to a filibuster), and a remarkably belligerent president to deal with, so it's hardly fair to blame it all on them.
Social Security, Welfare, Medicare and Medicaid exceed the entire military AND discretional [sic] budget (not just the Iraq war) and all are horribly broken.
Think how many countries we could occupy if we weren't wasting all our money on social programs!
[I]f you really want fiscally responsible policies... vote them all out of office and start taking care of yourself for a change.
Since you make the "start taking care of yourself" suggestion in contrast to the "knee-jerk, liberally biased" programs such as Social Security, Welfare, Medicare and Medicaid, I'll just say that you and I -- and everyone else -- were born naked and helpless. We depended on others to provide us with food, shelter and clothing until we could provide for ourselves. The condition of our births was in no way a result of any planning, effort or desire on our own parts. We did not earn the ability to take care of ourselves through our own virtue or labors, and our continued good fortune is only partly within our own power to ensure.
I am not a crackpot.
Sadly, this is not true. What it is, is a constitutionally unauthorized law, but it is 100% in force, not null, not void, and the government can and will use its massive power to enforce it unless or until it stopped by the courts. Barring actual revolution, that is.
Some of the most glaring faults in our system are that there is no punishment for congresscritters and judges for violating their oaths; no recompense for people hurt by unconstitutional laws; and there is no review system that ensures that laws are even remotely constitutional prior to them coming into force. All we can do (within the system) is vote 'em out or hope that the courts will return to 10th grade reading skills and thus gain the wit to interpret the constitution as it was meant to be; an exercise in plain English. Unfortunately, our voting system is a process that favors the majority, and the majority are, to put it kindly, uninformed on the one hand; and on the other, the justices at SCOTUS are, again to be kind, incompetent to do their jobs.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.