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Outages Leave Google Apps Admins In the Hotseat

snydeq writes "This week's Google outages left several Google Apps admins in the lurch — and many of them are second-guessing their advocacy for making the switch to hosted apps, InfoWorld reports. The outages, which affected both Gmail and Apps, 'could serve as a deterrent to some IT and business managers who might not be ready to ditch conventional software packages that are installed on their servers,' according to the article. 'If we began to experience a similar outage more than about two or three business hours per quarter, we'd probably make Google Apps and Gmail a backup solution to a locally hosted mail system, if we used it at all,' said one Apps admin. 'And it would likely be years before we'd try a cloud-based collaborative system again from any vendor.' Coupled with recent Apple and Amazon cloud issues, these Google outages are being viewed by some as big wins for Microsoft."

67 of 260 comments (clear)

  1. why "big win" for microsoft ? by unity100 · · Score: 3, Informative

    isnt there any other vendor out there providing business solutions ? its not like everyone is going to jump into exchange wagon because they couldnt do with google apps. geez.

    1. Re:why "big win" for microsoft ? by Ritz_Just_Ritz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree. Openoffice is still "locally installable" and 100% free on the applications front. And any business that relies on an outside free webmail service for their corporate email needs is just asking for trouble...loss of the service from time to time is but one of the gotchas.

      Cheers,

    2. Re:why "big win" for microsoft ? by lukas84 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Google Apps Premier is not free - it's 50$ per year per account.

      I'm using it for my private mail. I like it. But i don't expect 100% uptime - especially for just 50Ã per year per account.

    3. Re:why "big win" for microsoft ? by jabithew · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because it's a refutation of Google's business model (cloud based, for want of a better way of phrasing it) compared to Microsoft's (locally based tech).

      I remain sceptical, as it it would seem that Google would have to be less reliable than local kit in order to make it worth switching back, even before you take into account extra costs for doing it locally. (How much more do you want to spend to get an extra hour per quarter in reliability?)

      Nevertheless, IANASA so I don't know the data behind this decision.

      --
      All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
    4. Re:why "big win" for microsoft ? by johannesg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There are only two IT solutions out there in the minds of too many people: Microsoft, and non-Microsoft.

      To go with Microsoft is the easy, sure road. It is the standard. It is what is expected, what is known to be safe, what will always work. Any problems you encounter here are met with "well, computers always have problems don't they?"

      To go with non-Microsoft is hard and uncertain. It is not expected, nor "the standard", and suspected to be extremely unsafe. The smallest problem will be countered with "you and your stupid ideas. Now go and call LocalRetailerInc for a certified Microsoft solution, and be glad I don't fire your ass over this fiasco!"

      Google is not Microsoft, so according to the business logic described above, if it doesn't work the only possible alternative is to use Microsoft.

    5. Re:why "big win" for microsoft ? by thermian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Its only a big win if Microsoft don't have similer problems.

      I'm personally very dubious about these online apps as anything but utilities for occasional use.

      The main issue for me is that they exists primarily to benefit the hosting company (google, Microsoft or whoever). We don't need them, they need us to use them, otherwise they can't make money from us.

      The current 'install on local machine' application model works perfectly well for end users, but there's less profit for them if you can buy something then use it for years without paying again.

      --
      A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
    6. Re:why "big win" for microsoft ? by chthon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Non-Microsoft can be :

      • IBM mainframe
      • IBM System/i
      • IBM AIX
      • Sun
      • HP
      • Solutions using Red Hat or SUSE (however despised they might be)
      • I am pretty sure there are other solutions...

      I think the basic problem is impatience. I can understand that people want for business purposes something that is quickly implemented, but my experience is that when a Microsoft implementation is chosen, you have two long-term issues : you will time and time again have to solve the same problems over and over, and you can be sure that Microsoft will try to pressure you into upgrades, willing or not.

      My experience with Linux and associated programs is this. Over time, everything gets better and better. Sometimes, you might need some time to investigate a problem and solve it, but once solved, it will not recur again (be sure that you have a good system to record such findings, but that would be same when using Microsoft).

      I have already three people (not much, yes, but important for me) using Linux : my father, my brother (who shares with my father's PC) and my sister. Unless there is a hardware problem, I can be sure that I do not have to solve software issues on a regular basis, only help them with functional questions : what software to use and how to use it.

      They use on a regular basis :

      • OpenOffice
      • GIMP
      • SANE based scanners
      • HP Deskjet printing
      • Firefox (Iceweasel)
      • Evolution and Sylpheed-Claws
      • Skype
      • Google Earth

      I am pretty sure that for most parts of a business, this would be enough.

      Now, I think that the usage of Exchange is more of a perception thing, than a real technical obstacle. At my work, Lotus Notes was swapped for Exchange, but I do not consider this a progress, as it reminds me too much of PCTools 4.0 or 5.0 (about 1990) : I really do not see anything innovative in this area (and while some people here seem to loathe Lotus Notes (mostly without any reasons given), it was much faster than Exchange, I find speed very important for computer programs).

      Anyone here which as implemented or is using alternatives to Exchange ?

    7. Re:why "big win" for microsoft ? by Instine · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Precisely. And while I use Gmail most of the time, and the rest of my office use an Exchange server hosted in same said office, guess who has the better uptime...?

      That would be me. They frequently (3-4 time a month) loose half a day, as the under resourced, high maintanence, auto-destructing, sorry updated, blackhat honey pot splutters in the corner. I've lost two half days in the however many years I've used Gmail.

      --
      Because you can - or because you should?
    8. Re:why "big win" for microsoft ? by blincoln · · Score: 3, Informative

      No matter how good the admin is, running it on an old gaming machine provided by the CEOs Son won't give you five nines. You can be happy to get 80%.

      How is that the fault of Exchange?

      I've backed up our main Exchange engineer for over five years now in an enterprise environment, and out of our 10+ servers I've seen 2 outages. One was due to the system board on the server failing, so that leaves one where Exchange was at fault (one of the databases became corrupt and had to be restored from a backup).

      I attribute this to three main factors:

      - We run it on enterprise-class hardware.
      - Despite rumours to the contrary, most of Microsoft's enterprise-level software is pretty solid, unless it's a 1.0 or 2.0 release.
      - Our Exchange implementation was engineered by someone who knew what he was doing, and is now supported by someone who knows what he's doing.

      Anyway, this article just makes me more convinced that we've done the right thing by sticking with our own system instead of using a hosted product.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    9. Re:why "big win" for microsoft ? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think, in this case, that it is less a matter of absolute downtime, and more a matter of people's feelings of control over that downtime. Look at cars vs. planes. Flying is safer, but people feel safer driving because they feel like they are in control of the situation.

      My suspicion would be that google hits higher reliability numbers than many in-shop setups, particularly small ones; but the feeling of sitting there, twiddling your thumbs, and waiting for the remote service over which you have no control to come back up is a terrible one. It is much nicer to have to fix a local problem, which requires more effort; but makes you master of your fate(to the degree that anybody ever is).

      The smaller, but ultimately more intractable, issue for remote hosted stuff is that it necessarily suffers more potential points of failure than does local stuff. If google screws up, google goes down. If somebody between my desktop and google screws up, google is down to me. If WAN goes down, but LAN stays up, local apps are still substantially useful(since a vast amount of email and document shuffling is company internal); but remote stuff is useless.

    10. Re:why "big win" for microsoft ? by rabbit994 · · Score: 2, Funny

      OS stays up heck alot of better and Office 2007 is pretty stable. I haven't heard of it crashing at complete random hosing up work. When it does crashes for no reason, it's generally the computer is hosed up with Spyware and Viruses pretty bad. Exchange 2007 is stable and unless you use it in some wierd way that Microsoft doesn't recommend, it stays up most of the time.

    11. Re:why "big win" for microsoft ? by Dynedain · · Score: 2

      I am pretty sure that for most parts of a business, this would be enough.

      I keep hearing this argument over and over, and it doesn't hold water. Every industry has its own set of "industry standard" applications (aka "vertical stack") which are never easily replaceable and are always a core requirement to how the companies in that industry do their work.

      Examples:

      • Architecture: Core work is done on CAD of which the only reasonable solutions are AutoCAD, Revit (both from Autodesk and Windows only) and ArchiCAD (Win/OSX). The CAD solutions available for Linux are a joke.
      • Movie Special Effects: This industry can run on Linux, but only because all the big companies use their own in-house software that was originally written for UNIX stacks. The back-end accounting and business management departments all use tools written for Windows
      • Law Firms: Good luck getting versions of their research and case management tools for anything other than Windows
      • Accounting: Again, the enterprise-level financial reporting, organizing, and filing tools are all Windows-centric.

      It isn't just about MS Office. While an office suite is an important part of any business (even my OSX office of 75 people uses MS Office), there is always something that ties the industry to a specific platform. It is usually a very niche product, and only available from 1 or 2 vendors. And because it's so ingrained to their workflow, it won't be replaced unless their primary vendor goes under.

      --
      I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
    12. Re:why "big win" for microsoft ? by encoderer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The fact that you've got a horrible sys admin for your exchange server says a lot more about your company than it does about Microsoft and Exchange.

      Fact is a lot of companies are running exchange w/ very little downtime at all.

    13. Re:why "big win" for microsoft ? by neonsignal · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Interesting that people are more uncomfortable with a 3 hour downtime on gmail than they are with a 3 hour downtime on their local mail server. My guess is that it is the feeling of being out of control. If it is a local problem, there is someone to curse; if it is remote, then you don't even know when it is going to be fixed. This is a good example of how we are psychologically more adverse to unknown failures than we are to known ones.

    14. Re:why "big win" for microsoft ? by Cramer · · Score: 2

      That's exactly it. When gmail fails, you don't know if it's going to be 3min, 3hrs, or 3days. Or if it will ever be fixed. You are left with no information and no control. When (if) it does come back, you don't know what state it's going to be in... how much of your data is now screwed up and completely gone? What choice(s) do you have in the matter? (none.) With a local server, everything is right there in front of you. You have people you can talk to. You have people to make it right again. You have control, and you are part of the information loop.

    15. Re:why "big win" for microsoft ? by dbcad7 · · Score: 2, Informative

      You want a horror story... Excite, which had (at least in my opinion) pretty reliable web mail.. decided to "upgrade" their email interface, and have it hosted by a company called Bluetie.. You would figure in such a change that you might at the most be down for a day, maybe two... 33 days is what it took before I finally got any email coming into my inbox.. Now for me this was just a side account, but I had some things tied to it that I liked to keep tabs on.. but there were many people who had excites email tied into their businesses, and personal things like banking and job searches.. many many unhappy people dumped excite for good over this fiasco.. Worst planned and poorly executed upgrade I have ever seen.

      --
      waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
  2. Incredible Expectations by bigtallmofo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When my boss tells me he wants 0 downtime (or even five-9 downtime), I show him a quote for the 7-figure cost of creating such a system.

    Apparently Google is expected to hit that level of uptime all while charging either nothing for their standard edition or $50 per user per year for the premier.

    I wonder how much downtime the companies that are using Google Apps would experience if they had to pay for their own redundancy?

    --
    I'm a big tall mofo.
    1. Re:Incredible Expectations by lukas84 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Depending on the size of your company, you can have 0 unexpected downtime with a single server, if you are lucky.

      Statistics don't matter for the individual case.

      We have many customers with SBS Server or smaller Windows environments with just redundant Domain Controllers, and out of our entire customer base, we only have one or two unexpected downtimes per year.

      Of course this doesn't invalidate your point it all - it just may explain where the execs delusional ideas come from.

    2. Re:Incredible Expectations by jimicus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Depending on the size of your company, you can have 0 unexpected downtime with a single server, if you are lucky.

      The key phrase here is "if you are lucky".

      The whole point about building a system which is designed to have zero downtime is that it doesn't depend upon luck in order to achieve that level of uptime.

    3. Re:Incredible Expectations by CBravo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That depends on the number of users / server. Suppose a server costs 2000 dollar/year to run. You would need 2000/50 = 40 concurrent users/year (excluding managing the systems).

      Well, 40 is not a lot. A decent application can service 1000 users/system. Maybe a user is online for 8 hours a day. This means you can service 3000 users per server. Maybe you need a db server and a failover ratio of 2. That still serves you 750 users/server on average.

      Suppose you have a 90% ratio of demo to payed subscriptions. That still earns you 35*50 dollar per server (=1750). Decent margin. The real question becomes: can you manage your servers efficiently?

      --
      nosig today
  3. Google will release app servers by QuietLagoon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It is not a big win for Microsoft, it is a big win for corps hosting their own app servers. I would think that eventually Google will release google apps on a server that corps could install in their own data centers.

  4. No planned downtime? by bigtallmofo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    we only have one or two unexpected downtimes per year

    What about your planned downtime? If you're running Windows, you're rebooting to install patches on a regular basis or you're running unpatched systems. What about software installs?

    In the context of the article, do you think the users of Google Apps (or any users) would be happy with, "Oh, no you don't understand. This is PLANNED downtime. This doesn't affect you or our downtime numbers."

    you can have 0 unexpected downtime with a single server, if you are lucky.

    You can win the lottery too, if you are lucky. How many people win the lottery though?

    --
    I'm a big tall mofo.
  5. Google's Service Level Agreement by Animats · · Score: 5, Informative

    Google has a Service Level Agreement. If they have excessive downtime, you can get up to 15 days of free service. No refunds.

    Tell that to your boss. It's not your problem. That's what the company signed up for. Welcome to "cloud computing".

    1. Re:Google's Service Level Agreement by Lynchenstein · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The last few places I worked had periodic network outages, random print server crashes, workstation blue screens. This caused hours and hours of downtime for dozens of people over the course of a year.

      When Google Apps or Gmail goes down, exceedingly rare as it is, people threaten to "abandon the cloud". I wish we had threatened to abandon the lame infrastructure that our parent company refused to update or spend money properly maintaining. For my $0, Google does one hell of a better job than the three helpless infrastructure guys could do with almost zero budget.

      For places that either can't or won't put cash into a proper local infrastructure, relying on the cloud is a cost-effective option. Even with occasional downtime.

      P.S. I've just started playing with Gears, and it seems to bridge the gap nicely so far.

  6. You can't do it better than Google by Alereon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Do you honestly believe that you or your employees are going to build a system with higher availability than Google? In the magical fantasy world we all wish we lived in, you may have the budget, skill, manpower, and infrastructure resources to do this. In the real world it is not even remotely possible. I know how much it sucks when your system is down and there's nothing you can do but wait on some status dashboard to from Red to Green. That said, we should recognize that while being frustrated at this lack of control is normal, that doesn't mean you actually could do it better. It's easy to say "this would have never happened if we were self-hosted" while never thinking about the bullets you dodged by running hosted applications.

    That means you, as a single customer, are insignificant. And that shows daily when dealing with any large service provider.

    The only thing that my service provider should care about is the availability of the platform. I am completely insignificant, but the only reason my hosted app would be down is if the platform is down, and that sure as hell is significant to them. The advantage of hosted applications and cloud computing is that no one needs to ever look at or touch my app, the platform is all that matters.

    1. Re:You can't do it better than Google by lukas84 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The system being completely down is one point.

      But what about annoying behaviour, bugs, changes, etc.?

      If you're self hosted, you'll have people looking into solving the problem and actually trying to do so. In the end, it might not happen because the cost may to high or because of something else.

      When you call Google you'll reach some guy in india that doesn't give a shit about your problem.

    2. Re:You can't do it better than Google by silanea · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Do you honestly believe that you or your employees are going to build a system with higher availability than Google? In the magical fantasy world we all wish we lived in, you may have the budget, skill, manpower, and infrastructure resources to do this. In the real world it is not even remotely possible. [...]

      Google has to run a massively sized setup catering to a vast diversity of customer types. Sure, they have more manpower and know-how than my employer's IT dept. But they have to distribute this manpower across a very wide field, working on dozens of products and issues in parallel. They have to deal with and prepare for basically any issue imaginable to the IT savvy part of mankind.

      My employer's IT infrastructure, communications system and document/information management system are tailored to our needs. We have everything we need, but nothing we don't. We follow a safety and recovery protocol that reflects our business structure and priorities.

      Short of the annihilation of Western Europe there aren't too many scenarios that would compromise our infrastructure in a way that would impact business. Why should we trade this situation for a little more convenience?

      (Notwithstanding the fact that for legal reasons we won't actually even consider outsourcing anything more delicate than delivering lunch to our IT folk. Mere uptime is not our greatest concern.)

      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    3. Re:You can't do it better than Google by bitslinger_42 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Do you honestly believe that you or your employees are going to build a system with higher availability than Google? In the magical fantasy world we all wish we lived in, you may have the budget, skill, manpower, and infrastructure resources to do this. In the real world it is not even remotely possible.

      Do I believe it? You betcha! While my company doesn't have 100% uptime for every employee all the time, we haven't suffered an across-the-board outage of a critical system (i.e. email, ERP, core business applications, etc.) in the 11 years that I've been here. Sure, we'll lose an email server once in a while, but we have many such servers, so the loss of a single system only impacts a few thousand employees tops. That's far better than impacting ALL our employees if Google has an outage. And don't get me started about the idea of not being able to do word processing just because a WAN link is down. How on earth could you run a business that way???

      And it's possible to provide uptime even in the event of widespread events, such as flooding, tornadoes, etc. We have multiple datacenters, geographically dispersed. Each center has multiple Internet connections through multiple providers carefully chosen such that the lines go to different cities (i.e. one link to Chicago, one to Denver). Similarly, our power is connected to multiple grids, with the feeds coming in on opposite ends of the buildings. Critical centers have on-site generators spec'd to handle 100% load of the datacenter and requisite support stations, plus enough battery backup to allow for all systems to continue running between loss of grid feed and when the generators are spun up, not to mention on-site diesel sufficient for several days of operations and contracts to get more as needed.

      Was this cheap? Not in the least. Was it worth it? Definitely. We kept our main datacenter running without interruption during a week that saw multiple weather events (i.e. tornadoes, flooding, lightning-related power loss, etc.) when every building around ours for multiple miles was without power.

    4. Re:You can't do it better than Google by rmm4pi8 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You know, everybody keeps saying this, but it doesn't match up with my experience. If you're running a company of ~25 people or less, such that a decent server and quality colocation are likely out, let alone redundant server hardware, then yeah, you're almost certainly going to have better reliability in the cloud.

      Over the past four years, however, my systems at companies in the ~100 employee range, with redundant servers in quality colo with offsite backups, but no dedicated DR setup, have averaged more than one full 9 better uptime than Google/Amazon, for pretty similar pricing (to $50/user/year, eg with Zimbra $28/user/yr allowing $22/user/year for admin time, hardware, and colocation fees). Of course if you are only hosting internal corporate apps and thus don't need the services of a full time admin to amortize, then your admin costs will likely be higher than this--but for a full extra 9 of uptime (4-9's vs 3) that could be worth it.

      Now you might object that without a dedicated DR site, should my colo fail (which obviously happens, eg when Sun/Craigslist went down and Rackspace also) I'm out at least a day, and that I've just been lucky that hasn't happened to me in the last four years. Probably true, but first of all, there are a ton of major colos in the U.S., and since it's basically front page news when one of them goes down, I'm not at all clear that the average one is down a day every four years. Second, if you look at Amazon's recent 6+ hour S3 outage, etc, cloud computing downtime can quickly add up to the time to bring a colo back on line anyway.

      Third, there is an offsetting risk to cloud computing--in the unlikely event that Google really loses my data (Is that more unlikely than a Tier 1 datacenter going down? Unclear.), who's to say that they won't just cut their losses? Certainly consumer gmail accounts have disappeared before without explanation or recourse. Even if my datacenter dies in a fiery explosion, my company has darn near infinite will to make sure that the offsite backups get brought up somewhere sooner or later. Basically, when services are cheap/utility, that means that you tend to get more out of it than it costs, which is awesome, but the flipside is that when the chips are down, it's worth more for you that your data come back than it is for them to fix it.

      Now you might think that there has to be something wrong with this anecdote, since Google/Amazon/whomever clearly have more layers of redundancy than I ever will, and so just logically should have better uptime. But there are two problems with this analysis. First, they have way more complexity than I do, and so a problem elsewhere in the system (again, look at the recent S3 bit-corruption outage) at the software layer can quickly propagate across all those layers of hardware redundancy, and obviously their software setup has to be way more complex to cope with all that distributedness in the first place. Second, a lot of issues where the hardware and data are intact can be fixed, worst-case, by someone just rebooting the darn system (like it or not) or restarting the hung daemon, etc. For me, this is just logging into a portal and doing the deed when my pager goes off, which is likely to be a darn high priority and done quickly. For Google or Amazon, as we've seen, the procedure may be basically the same, but takes hours in order for them to get enough hardware back on line (and sufficiently isolated from the stuff that doesn't work) to start offering service again.

      So while for small and large businesses the usual Slashdot answers probably suffice easily, I think that at least for tech-savvy firms with other tech needs (the only kind I've worked at, and admittedly a minority), even medium businesses may be far better off insourcing than you seem to think.

      --
      U.S. War Crimes blog. Email for free Mandriva support.
    5. Re:You can't do it better than Google by fyoder · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Do you honestly believe that you or your employees are going to build a system with higher availability than Google?

      Our qmail/vpopmail based mail server is much more reliable than google. So why have we moved many accounts to Google if we have better availability? Because Google rocks when it comes to spam filtering. I wouldn't recommend Google for high availabilty and performance, but if you've got the too much spam blues, Google can take that headache off your hands. The perpetual battle against spam isn't something we want to devote extensive resources to beyond a few sensible, easy to implement measures.

      --
      Loose lips lose spit.
  7. Where are the stories about the outage itself? by yuna49 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I scan Slashdot nearly every day and didn't remember seeing anything about outages at Google this past week. A search through the story history confirmed that fact. So I thought I'd visit google.com and see what Google itself had to say. Nothing on the blog; nothing in the press section.

    So why is this the first time these outages have been discussed here? From reading the article it appears we're talking about multiple outages over the past couple of weeks. Doing a Google search for "google outages" brings up one blog posting about these recent events. The blog posting includes this unsourced quotation, "Google spokesman Andrew Kovacs said via e-mail that 'a small number' of Gmail users and 'some' Apps users were impacted by the problem, which is still outstanding and being worked on as of 5:30 p.m. U.S. Eastern Time on Friday."

    So all these events seem rather shrouded in mystery. How big was the outage? What explanations did Google give for the outage? I've certainly had servers go down, lost network connectivity, etc., etc., but I don't maintain huge server farms with enormous redundancy and multiple high-bandwith connections to the Internet. I don't recall search on Google ever going down; what's up with gmail and Apps?

    The suspicious among us might start to think that outside parties might be responsible. After all, if companies start migrating to the "cloud," disrupting those services could have a substantial, economy-wide impact.

    1. Re:Where are the stories about the outage itself? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      There was a GMail outage on Monday, which was reported in their blog:

      [blog entry]

      I've read rumors about other Google Apps outages later last week, but nothing official and saw no evidence of them myself.

    2. Re:Where are the stories about the outage itself? by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There aren't any gDoc outages that I've seen. The stories so far are about gmail outages, and it's leading people to question whether gDocs will suffer the same.

      That said, I don't remember the last time I've had any Google service down. It happens but not so often. My problem is that my internet service is a tad flaky, in part because wireless is my only partly decent broadband option.

      And that flakiness leads me to avoid "cloud" computing. You're relying on a service that has no credible assurances of uptime, and if your internet service is down, then what? My experience with T1 service is such that I might be lucky to get same-day repairs on that internet service. I'm not fond of the VOIP idea for the same reason either, if my internet is down, phones are down too, leaving no way to get in contact with people, except for mobile phones whose signal is weak inside the building.

  8. I did not even notice it... by mrboyd · · Score: 4, Informative
    We use google Apps for email and to be really honest no one here noticed the issue and I trust the email that could not reach gmail server during the outage will be retransmitted in time. The reliability of our mail server was far worse when we hosted it ourselves, particularly when some of the SEA-ME-WE cables got cut and our provider lost all connectivity for a couple of days. I am certain that if I had big money to waste I could build my own email servers farms and target the five nines but right now we are paying $0 and we are getting a pretty decent service.
    Those IT manager using the free service and expecting mission critical uptime should really go out more often and get a grip on reality.
    Let's see, to set up my own five/nine email servers I would need at least two hosting location on different backbone, each of them should have at least two redundant servers. And of course I should have one spare that I can ship express whenever one fail.

    Fixed Cost (Investment)
    • Decent server (RAID, Redudant PS): $3,500x5= $17,500
    • Operating system license: RHEL Standard subscription: $799 (optional of course)
    • Software license: $0 (sendmail etc..)

    Monthly Recurring Cost

    • Hosting with decent SLA: $500x2= $1,000
    • Email Administrator (IT Admin): $10,000(?)
    • Replacement Parts: $100(?)

    Implementation time

    • 2 to 6 months (including, research, documentation)

    Of course I pulled the numbers out of my hat but it should be enough to show that there is no way a SOHO will ever have the mean to do it and that it is unrealistic to expect that kind of service for free or cheap.

    1. Re:I did not even notice it... by thalassinos · · Score: 2, Interesting
      That's roughly my estimate too.

      I am currently in the process of starting a new company. At the moment we only have four persons as staff, two if which (including me) work mostly from home.

      We could never afford a dedicated server at this time.

      Signing up for Google Apps was a no brainer for us and we are very happy with it so far.

  9. The Illusion of Control by Hangtime · · Score: 4, Interesting

    We have all seen it. Ebay a couple of years ago going down due to Oracle corruption. Royal Bank of Canada failure due to an improper software upgrade. Now, Google with Gmail and other Google Apps failing. All of these organizations were geared towards having the highest uptimes available and failed spectacularly.

    Whether you host your own or use someone else its the illusion of control that somehow clouds our judgment into believing that it would somehow be different if I did it. Example: Is it better to drive or fly? Pure numbers state that its safer to fly on a commercial carrier by an order of magnitude but somehow we feel safer when we drive. Whether we choose to acknowledge it or not the world is full of 6 sigma events. As long as you are doing everything you can and within your budget when your hosting your own apps or auditing your provider to ensure they have, backup systems, redundancy, offsite bunker, etc. then you have done everything you can to prepare for this inevitability.

    In a lot of ways designing systems is like playing poker. You can play your hand perfectly, design all the systems redundancy and recovery you like, but sometimes even after all that your opponent (risk) draws a lucky card on the river to beat you. Just because you got beat doesn't mean you shouldn't continue to play the same way, it just means you hit one of those events that you cannot plan.

  10. Re:Networks crash just like software by NeverVotedBush · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Another issue is web/network attacks. They are going up big time and are even state-sponsored. Look at what Russia is, and has been doing to Georgia.

    I don't understand how anyone in this day and age can justify going with remotely-hosted applications. The ability to reach remote servers can be taken away even by morons and botnets who might not like your company.

    In my opinion, remote web hosting of applications that are presumably important for a company to be able to run is just asking for trouble. I wonder how many fingers will get pointed when some critical deadline looms and nobody can run their applications to be able to meet it.

    It's reckless and risky for business to expose themselves like that. As others have pointed out, OpenOffice is free and it is good. Why waste money on training people on both the Google (or other) remotely-hosted application and OpenOffice (if that is your emergency backup). Just train people on OpenOffice and now you don't need a backup plan in case the network goes down and you can't run the remote stuff.

    Remote applications may have been a solution before the Internet got nasty but these days, running business-critical stuff over it when you don't need to does not make sense to me.

    Maybe I'm missing the huge economic advantages that justify the unknown and growing risk, but I see network (Internet) applications as being at huge risk for outages, a security risk, a data privacy risk, etc.

  11. power by epfreed · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Two weeks ago a transformer blew out in the building I work in. First there was no power for 3 hours, then temporary power as a large generator was hooked up, but it was not big enough to run the AC, so we did no turn on the servers. It took another day to get a large enough generator (about the size of a tractor trailer). In total, our business was shut down completely for a day and a half due.

    I don't think you can even get a SLA from the power company.

    Google Apps went down for 3 hours.

    Shit happens.

  12. Rethinking Google by HangingChad · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We ran into one of these "gotcha" features in hosted Gmail that's been giving me fits and it all started with a simple mistake. I misspelled a user name. You can change the spelling in the admin module, but it doesn't change the spelling in the contacts and the misspelling still showed up when she logged in. So I tried deleting the user name and recreating the account.

    Big mistake.

    When you delete a user name you can't recycle it for five days, which pushed us past our roll out date. Their crip work-around is creating a mailing list with that user name. But that has its own set of problems, especially when trying to migrate a large number of users. There's no support unless you get the premium edition. So now we're stuck in the position of paying for support on a service we're not certain will work for us. I'm not inclined to throw money at something to see if it will work when what we're already paying for is working.

    Unfortunately, it was one of our key sales people who already had that account name on her business cards. Rolling without her is a non-starter.

    It's frustrating because I'm the one who recommended Google and I feel really let down. It's a stupid problem that shouldn't exist in the first place. Even if there's a good reason for it, there should be a giant warning banner with a flashing red neon border warning you that deleting a user results in a five day lock out. Actually, it's been more than five days and I still can't recreate the account.

    This one niggling little incident is making me rethink hosted applications. So, yeah, it does sort of benefit MS. Not in our case, we're using hosted SendMail instead of Exchange, but if this type of "feature" deters other companies already using MS solutions, then yeah. Who wants to take a chance on looking bad? There will still be outages with any solution but no one gets fired for recommending MSFT. There's a certain period of time that users are looking for an excuse not to like a new service, just because it's different. If you can get past that time frame, then a small outage can be overlooked. But those first few months have to be smooth. Maybe not flawless, but close to it.

    It would almost be better if the free version was a trial and corporate users could get support from day one. This is just maddening. Shape up, Google.

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    1. Re:Rethinking Google by mbaciarello · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I feel for you.

      I'm trying to set up a collaborative network for a small non-profit organization. Right now, 'free (at least) as in beer' is not an option for any such tool.

      However great Gmail's interface, Google Apps is not really ready for serious corporate/pro team use IMHO.

      You may recall that up until a few days or weeks ago, members contacts were not automatically populated for new accounts--everyone had to manually fill them in for keeps. Although that was fixed, there's no way to create and propagate contact groups (as opposed to mailing lists) automatically--and mailing lists won't just cut it as users can't see who actually is on the list. Nor can they make new groups and propagate them to their sub-team.

      Also, the inability to "force" chosen calendars into members calendar areas is almost a showstopper for us. I wonder how many larger corporations can cope with that. The way I'm working around this is adding calendar widgets to relevant sections and asking users to click the button and add the agenda to their calendars. We're still testing, but I'm not seeing satisfactory compliance...

      Finally, support is egregiously non-existent. They have an apparently smart policy on the discussion groups: if you post a lot (presumably in response to people's queries), you get benefits. Well, I have yet to receive a single answer as to why "naked domain" addressing (http://mydomain.com/) used to work on my host but doesn't after CNAME modifications. And I'm getting 404's, not DNS errors! I may be getting what I'm paying for, but then again, my EUR 0 are worth a lot more on most other freeware communities around the Web.

      For one, I've gotten better support and answers from the guys at Zoho.com, while on my free plan. Their offerings are also way more complete and functional, though slightly worse performance-wise, than Google's. Too bad they don't have 2nd-level domain customization (AFAIK) and, more importantly, they have a price for multiple projects we can't afford as of yet.

      And don't even get me started on the lame Google Pages -> Sites app... Either you have a full-time coder dishing out Google Gear applications for you, or you're much better off clicking away at Wordpress or Joomla GUI admin pages... Layout templates? They look all the same. CSS customization? Severely limited. Actually I think you can customize your Blogger.com site more than you can Google Sites.

      All in all, organizations of all sizes considering/using Google Apps have a lot more to worry about than a few sparse hours of email downtime...

      Ok, enough with the tedious rant, but just a quick reminder to those using the free Apps edition: be advised that one of the main selling points of Google Apps, unified logins, is closed unless you sign up for the paid plan. You'll have to pay to let users login from your actually-usable-and-professional-looking blog/CMS into their Gmails, Docs and Calendars using the same account.

    2. Re:Rethinking Google by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Its Google's fault you set everything up at virtually the last minute?

    3. Re:Rethinking Google by BIGELLOW · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That makes little to no sense. It sounds to me that, in general, you are just second-guessing using technology at all.

      Think about it.

      Imagine there was some sort of known flaw in Outlook, Exchange, or some other email-based application. Then, imagine this flaw came at a terrible time for you, right when you were dealing with an important client.

      Would your response be, "It's a stupid problem that shouldn't exist in the first place. This one niggling little incident is making me rethink software."?

      Again, it isn't the fact that it is a "hosted app" that has caused this problem. It's a bug or a design flaw, that ANY piece of software could be prone to, and isn't just limited to the idea of hosted apps.

      The only types of flaws that one could attribute specifically to "hosted apps" are service-level down-times. However, these could always be compared to service-level down-times when running servers on an internal network. Google Apps have had fewer network problems in its entire lifetime than our internal network has suffered for the past two weeks.

  13. Re:Incredible Expectations? by King_TJ · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Expecting five-9 or 0 downtime for a system used by only ONE company might be a very high expectation with a high cost vs. usage obtained from it afterwards.

    But how many companies rely on Google's systems? When you offer your application or suite to the whole nation or WORLD, and campaign for its use - then YES, you do need to keep a very near-0 downtime to be really successful.

  14. Bandwagon in the Cloud by TimeTraveler1884 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seriously now, WTF? Why is everyone acting like they've never had a BSOD on windows, a failed harddrive, a driver problem, or a vendor discontinue support? I use AWS, GAE and Google Apps and while there is a certain loss of control, the downtime I have experienced is far less than I would incur trying to roll my own infrastructure.

    I've worked in a few companies with large IT budgets and have experienced more downtime in those environments than I have so far "in the cloud." I think the biggest problem with cloud computing, is when there is downtime, IT admins don't have anything else to do which frees up a lot of time for bitching about the downtime their blogs. Seems familiar from when I was an admin, except on the other side, it was my users bitching at me about an couple of hours of downtime a year.

  15. train crash analogy by ajb44 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Train crashes happen much less frequently than car crashes, so trains are, on average, safer. But every single train crash is news, because more people die in an individual event than in an individual car crash.

    Cloud apps have the same problem. When google apps or EC2 go does, it's news.

  16. Give me a break by DustoneGT · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In my company Google Apps is the most reliable thing we use. Microsoft products are my biggest headache. We have clients that need their work done and I don't have any more time to waste on these crappy machines. We will be switching to Apple for all mission-critical machines in the next three weeks.

    If my MS computers could have only 3 hours of downtime a quarter I would be really happy. I used to work for an IT company and they primarily used MS servers for their clients. Big mistake. MS products are a nightmare. Their clients would have been happy with 3 hours of downtime instead of days and days down dealing with MS server issues. I would only avoid cloud computing if there were serious concerns with privacy or hacking.

  17. You CAN do it better than Google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Do you honestly believe that you or your employees are going to build a system with higher availability than Google?

    Why, yes, I do. I've worked as an enterprise technical architect for 2 of the baby bells and a 3 hour outage is outrageous.
    I've designed systems that will fail over within 2 minutes with with under 30 seconds of data loss. The users just need to re-login and the load balancers (also redundant) will redirect them to a different data center 600 miles away from their primary location.

    This solution is possible regardless of the crap code provided. And when you build the entire network, you know where the weaknesses are - and you aren't at the whim of some ISP for connectivity. Redundancy, management, monitoring and good overall system designs are your friend. Cost and cocky software developers are your enemy. Having fully tested DR solution for the price of a Prod/Test set of systems is win/win, if you ask me. Most of the time, executive management agreed with me and we built systems with less than 30 minutes of downtime for disasters even on the cheapest projects. We test fail over every other week by swapping the primary location as a matter of course.

    Google's weakness is in believing that having 1,000 of CPUs is all you need to deal with redundancy.
    You have to plan for outages.
    You have to practice your fail over plan - at least every other week or on game day, when it counts, YOU WILL FALTER.

    "Hope is not a plan." -JG

    1. Re:You CAN do it better than Google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've designed systems that will fail over within 2 minutes with with under 30 seconds of data loss.

      Which is worse, three hours of unavailability with no data loss, or 30 seconds of data loss every time you fail over? Redundancy is a lot easier if you are willing to tolerate 30 seconds of data loss on fail over.

      This solution is possible regardless of the crap code provided.

      It is a major misunderstanding to assume, that redundancy protects against crappy code. If you run a crappy piece of code you are likely to have data dependent crashes. What good is it to have two redundant instances, when both are running the same crappy code? Eventually you are going to process some data that triggers the same buggy code path in both instances. IIRC the Ariane 5 rocket blew up because of exactly that.

      Two redundant instances running independently developed software is no solution either, because any redundancy with just two instances is making lots of assumptions about the nature of failures. In fact it is proven, that if you don't make hard assumptions about the timings of the network between your instances, you need at least four different instances to tolerate a single failure and keep the rest in a consistent state. (In general you must have stricly less than one third of failures, so to tolerate two failures you would need seven instances). Good luck with finding four independent implementations of a reliable protocol for such redundancy.

      Google's weakness is in believing that having 1,000 of CPUs is all you need to deal with redundancy.

      That comment was just hilarious. Now could you please point me at the webpage explaining how gmail implements redundancy, so I can verify your claim?

    2. Re:You CAN do it better than Google by v1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      my DSL was down for FIVE DAYS recently due to flooding. The brilliant bell decided to place ALL their DSL centers in the state within 2 blocks of wherever the local river was. D'oh. We got a "500 year flood" and it buried every single one of them.

      If 3 hours is outrageous, what does three days classify as?

      The irony? I used my gmail while they were down.

      They have yet to restore my "backup dialup account", a month later. Sure, 56k isn't exactly a good backup, but they didn't even have THAT.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
  18. YES, you can do it better than Google by CaymanIslandCarpedie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hmmmm..... not long after introduction Google apps have 15 hours of unplanned downtime. We have apps that have been deemed critical and have had zero unplanned downtime since introduction (knock on wood). Our system was designed for absolute maximum 1 hour RTO and 1/2 hour RPO. Thus far, we haven't had to actually use DR plan in real life, but tests show we beat those numbers.

    I'm sure Google "can" build better systems than I have, but like any other company they did a cost/benefit and decided what they have is good enough. For my company 15 hours down time isn't good enough for systems so we spent the money for a better system.

    So.... yes you can at least do it better than Google "has" regardless of if they "can" do better or not. That isn't to say hosted apps aren't good enough in some cases, but to say you cannot provide better if needed is a bit silly.

    --
    "reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert
  19. The uptime percentage is very clear... by slk · · Score: 4, Informative

    The sign-up page for Google Apps Premier says you get 99.9% uptime. That's about 1/3 of a day downtime per year, or a couple of hours per quarter.

    Google seems to be managing to hit that 99.9% uptime, just not exceed it. VERY few in-house e-mail systems actually manage 99.9% uptime, especially when you consider scheduled maintenance and downtime (remember, Google's 99.9% is for all downtime)

    In fact, I have seen very few Exchange systems that manage much more than 99% uptime. However, for those organizations, there are other compelling advantages to Exchange.

    --
    ERROR: Null .sig, core dumped.
  20. Why blame Google ? by billcopc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I love being the asshole, but let's be honest here: how many in-house systems actually deliver better uptime than Google ?

    Not that many. If they did, all us sysadmins would be out of a job. Apps are not perfect. The fact that you can pay Google a few pennies to manage your email, even with some downtime, makes it several orders of magnitude cheaper than an in-house solution for most people.

    Give them a break, people can survive without email for a few hours.

    --
    -Billco, Fnarg.com
  21. Migrated in Dec 2007 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I migrated my company of 80 users to Google Apps hosted email about a year ago, and yeah, sometimes there has been interimitent issues. People want to use it like Exchange via IMAP, but there are quirky issues, like Thunderbird sending the wrong delete command, Thunderbird somehow corrupting the user's password (the only way to correct is to login to the user's account on the hosted Gmail site), etc. So there definitely are some quirks sometimes.

    That said, it's free. Somebody a few posts back posted the cost of an RHEL install with server costs etc. Using Exchange, the price increases even moreso (license costs, CALs, etc.). Ultimately, you're getting a hosted, web-based email solution with the capability for shared calendars and document collaboration, all for absolutely $0.00.

    Free vs. $20k+ solution? In my oh-so-humble-opinion, users can deal with (and quite frankly, should continue to periodically expect) some downtime.

  22. Google Apps are actually quite good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm a professional writer and a recent convert to Google apps. I've been using Gmail since its inception for my business and personal email, and have recently been investigating using Google Docs. The word processor started off as little more than a text editor but nowadays is pretty balanced in terms of features.

    The main benefit is that it's all cross-platform, and I haven't got to worry about where my docs are stored (no messing about with a USB key stick, for example). I can access my work from any computer, running virtually any OS (provided Firefox is installed), virtually anywhere in the world.

    I really do think this is one possible future route for productivity applications on a computer. When viewed in this light, online apps are very compelling.

    The only issue is, as mentioned, outages. Every now and again (maybe twice a year), Gmail is inaccessible. If Google Docs is inaccessible, I'm stuffed and can't work. This is why I use Google Gears to hold local copies of docs, but this is still in beta testing. But a local backup is, of course, always a good idea.

  23. Re:You can't do it better than Google (no troll) by teknopurge · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Our mail platform has beaten google in uptime and security "bugs" for the past 40 months. Why? I attribute it to using proven technologies and not everyone wanting an account being able to get one: we charge every system user. You would be surprised how much this cuts down on spammers/excessive usage.

    Google has had their mail in beta for years. The last time I checked SMTP was ratified as an RFC over a decade ago.

  24. Must work in small shops by bigtallmofo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    With those you know WHEN it's going to happen. You can schedule it for out of hours.

    The position you're touting is completely foreign to me. I don't want to discount it, I just think it must be because you work for a small company and don't have any experience administering widely used web sites.

    Even for medium sized companies, I have to imagine that "out of hours" are few and far between.

    --
    I'm a big tall mofo.
    1. Re:Must work in small shops by iamhigh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I hear this quite a bit on the internet. It seems people that work in large environments don't realize how many people work with small computer networks. Half of the US work force works for a company with under 500 employees. You can check that here Census info. Since there are more small companies, and fewer large companies, there is a higher percentage of the total small/medium (under 500) workers that will be in a decision making position. It is also very likely that these smaller companies are the kind of business that can have all their systems shut down for a weekend a couple times a year.

      My anectodal evedence is that I current provide IT services for 3 places. All in that under 500. 1 is 24/6, the others are M-F 8-8. However, they are all manufacturers in some way. So that may also have something to do with it.

      --
      No comprende? Let me type that a little slower for you...
  25. what this really seems to be about by nimbius · · Score: 2, Interesting

    is in-site and outsource. failed in house tech tends to put alot of pressure on the in house support staff hired to maintain the tech, but im thinking most management is wondering if they could withstand the black eye of losing something like this if they hosted it at google



    this would be much less of a concern if they open sourced the entire group of apps, and offered hosting as an option. IT Managers could evaluate it on a more level cost benefit ground.

    i guess another question, is this really something that should be web based?

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
  26. Re:Networks crash just like software by bcrowell · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Another issue is web/network attacks. They are going up big time and are even state-sponsored. Look at what Russia is, and has been doing to Georgia. [...] I don't understand how anyone in this day and age can justify going with remotely-hosted applications. The ability to reach remote servers can be taken away even by morons and botnets who might not like your company.

    What you're saying makes sense for something like google apps, but it's exactly backwards for something like gmail. A small organization is much more vulnerable to a DOS attack than google is.

    Maybe I'm missing the huge economic advantages that justify the unknown and growing risk, but I see network (Internet) applications as being at huge risk for outages, a security risk, a data privacy risk, etc.

    This is more complicated than it might seem at first glance. Google, for example, has a published privacy policy. It may or may not be acceptable to a particular organization, but I'd expect Google to do a pretty good job of following it competently. On the other hand, many organizations that manage their own IT services do a really lousy job of managing security and privacy. For instance, Ameritrade had a problem for years where people would sign up for accounts, and immediately start getting pump and dump spam. Ameritrade tried to blame it on dictionary attacks, viruses, etc., but users thoroughly and publicly documented the fact that it was happening to single-purpose email accounts that were not vulnerable to dictionary attacks and were not on Windows boxes. Years later, Ameritrade finally admitted that there was a problem, and said it looked like it must have been an inside job -- some employee selling the addresses to spammers. You also get issues with employees bringing home laptops with sensitive data. Realistically, most of the security issues that IT departments deal with on a day to day basis are issues with users getting their machines infected with malware. I would expect that kind of thing to be less of a problem if your apps are remotely hosted. Your machine is probably less likely to get infected from clicking on a malware attachment, and if worst comes to worst, you can always do a clean install on the infected machine, meanwhile using a different machine to access the web app. No downtime, no lost data.

  27. Re:Networks crash just like software by NeverVotedBush · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Some good points but they can also be turned around. Something like GMail will definitely be more robust than trying to get the mail down to a local server. But web applications are subject to those same kinds of service interruptions. Even if Google has the bandwidth and distributed systems to be that robust, the choke point is the link in/out of the company and a DOS attack there can still close off access to the apps people need to run.

    And I think we're all starting to get a feeling for what other company's privacy policies are worth. While a local server at your company might be more likely to be penetrated depending on the skill of the admins and how well it is hardened compared to Google, other companies and the links between you and them are still subject to being compromised. You can also have issues with malicious insiders and I'm sure that Google is no different in that respect. Looking just at that, there could be a bigger risk at Google just based on the numbers of people that have access to your data. And your point with Ameritrade is just more proof of that risk.

    But malware will be a risk regardless of where the data is hosted. Even if you are working on some document remotely, you are still seeing it locally and if that system is exfiltrating data, you are still compromised.

    I am sure that Google has good security policies, good backups, good admins. But I stand by myself not wanting to risk the added exposure and possibility of being shut down by events outside of my control. I tend to think that with remote applications, I still have all of the local risk that I had before and add extra risk by using remote applications. About the only good I see is that a place like Google really should have excellent data backup practices that probably exceed what most companies call adequate.

  28. Re:irrational by wertigon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's true, but there's another side to it; imagine a company with 500 employees. Each employee has their own workstation. Now imagine 1% of those are down constantly. That means five employees will, at any given moment, not be able to perform any work. That's an annoyance, but if a workstation is down for on average 1 hour, then it's still ok.

    Now, the important thing to remember here; It's never the same five employees suffering from downtime, and the company as a whole still keeps doing what it does best; earn money. But with a centralised, hosted app, the *entire company* will be down during those three hours of downtime. Might as well give everyone a free day off.

    Hosted apps aren't going to fly until this very basic problem is solved. 'Nuff said.

    --
    systemd is not an init system. It's a GNU replacement.
  29. Re:Incredible Expectations? by BIGELLOW · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The part that is being misunderstood is simply this. Instead of just complaining about Google Apps... compare it to the alternatives.

    How many companies rely on Microsoft Outlook with Microsoft Exchange Server? When you offer an application or suite to the whole nation or WORLD, and campaign for its use - then YES, you do need to keep a very near-0 downtime to be really successful.

    Except, Microsoft Exchange (while often reliable) does have its moments. Sometimes, just from getting clogged by tons of spam, it can come to a crawl. The server can become unavailable to do network issues. Microsoft Outlook has a tendency to run slowly on some machines, or crash regularly. Expecting ANYTHING that uses computers to work 100% perfectly all of the time, although desirable, is completely unrealistic.

    I don't think the people here are saying "expect downtime and just deal with it." What is really being said is, "when MS Exchange goes down... or there are internal network hiccups... or when Outlook locks up on your machine... complain loudly on the Internet instead of to your local admin... that way, the world can get a real comparison between Google Apps and the alternative."

    The only reason Google Apps seems like the "bad one" here is because people go posting on blogs and news sites about it. Why? Because it's news... it's rare... it's not what people expect of Google. When Exchange server craps out, Outlook locks up, your computer gets a blue-screen-of-death, a hard drive goes bad, a router needs restarting, power goes out to the building, a UPS battery goes bad, etc, etc, etc... nobody bothers posting this on blogs or news sites because, well, it's an every-day occurrence... it's not exactly news.

    Then, when you compare systems that are "always up and available 24/7, can be easily accessed from outside of the company without a complicated VPN, have admins that don't gripe if they are taking up dozens of gigs of storage, with the capability of searching through millions of emails in a fraction of a second" to Google Apps... you'll likely notice that these other systems (with you take into account the cost of the servers, routers, admin hours, electricity, software, etc) cost much much more than $50/year per user.

    What's happening here is people are comparing Apples to Orangutans and are creating unrealistic expectations. If these companies really have that much cash to just waste on something they have been brainwashed into thinking is perfect, then they're next likely step in these economic times is to lay off some of their admins because, after all, why do you need admins if the systems are perfect?

  30. Uptime still better than at most places by ianmh · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't know about anyone else, but the fact that downtime is such a shock on Google is testament to how great the service usually is. Most companies I've worked for don't have an up time record that could even come close to Google.

    --
    www.ianhoar.com My blog about geeking out.
  31. Re:Networks crash just like software by BIGELLOW · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think a lot of the "good arguments" that have been voiced are just recycled arguments that could also be used to suggest that using computers in general is a bad idea. We should go back to pen and paper and horse drawn carriages. Simpler times back then.

    To be honest, the only valid argument I could make (that I haven't seen mentioned before) is that a hosted app has multiple points of failure in terms of network availability. If Google's servers go down, the service is unavailable. If any of the three or four Internet backbones between you and Google's servers has an issue, the service is down. If your own Internet access goes down, the service is down.

    So, there are more things to possibly go wrong in that respect. However, all of these same arguments could also be said if you were trying to reach your company email from home.

    The thing that keeps getting overlooked are the reasons WHY people are switching to Google Apps. They aren't switching because they just want to use some other system. They aren't switching because the price is so low (or free.) They aren't switching just because you can store a lot of data and search lightning fast. They are switching because there are collaboration and revision services. They aren't switching because it is accessible from all over the world with the same ease as accessing it from at work. They aren't switching because of the excellent spam filters. They're switching because of ALL of these.

    It's a cost/benefit thing. Telling a Ferrari owner that a Hyundai is much more reliable is missing the point that the person probably doesn't own the Ferrari only for its reliability.

    When Google Apps (as a service) is running well (which is the majority of the time,) it isn't just an alternative to software solutions. It is leaps and bounds beyond it. Gone are the days where people are emailing attachments to a group, trying to collaborate through a spreadsheet or specification in a Word Doc. Gone are the days where one must connect through a VPN first, then remote desktop to a machine, just to access certain files remotely. Gone are the days when admins have to stand over people's cubicle walls and say, "Do you know that you're using 10 gigs in your email? Can you please start clearing some stuff out, or we'll have to clear it for you."

    When things aren't running so smoothly, and Google Apps is inaccessible, then you end up with a pretty good (but not amazing) set of software (thanks to Gears.) Thankfully, this is very rare.

    But again, if you're ok with the software you're currently using and the price you are currently paying, there is absolutely no reason to switch. This shouldn't be a case about Hyundai owners trying to get Ferrari owners to switch to Hyundais and Ferrari owners trying to get Hyundai owners to switch to Ferraris. Everyone should use the software and services they are comfortable with.

    I just don't understand that instead of someone saying "it's just not for us at this time" they instead talk about the impending doom that is just around the corner. In reality, there is simply a technology shift taking place... but it's still happening. For a time, it's still ok for VHS owners to keep hanging onto their VHS collection while DVDs start flooding the market. For a time, it is still ok for those with black and white televisions to hang onto them a while longer even though color televisions have been out for a while. They're nothing wrong with diversity, taste, and opinion.

    The time has not come yet where those who are still using local software are out-of-touch. We're still a long way from that. But there is a certain personality type known as the innovators. The early adopters who are willing to take the risks needed to gain the bigger rewards. Sure there are some learning curves to deal with and the growing pains. But in the end, the innovators consider these as worthwhile costs to justify the end result. Eventually the time will come where the late adopters will be paying money to the early adopters to help them make the switch. To make their VCR stop flashing "12:00" so-to-speak.

  32. NOT a "big win for Microsoft"... by macraig · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... but rather a big win for locally installed and controlled "personal software", as well as - HOPEFULLY - another loss for the evil forces of greed trying to indoctrinate users to the concept of a software subscription model.

    Selling software as a subscription is the REAL reason why companies like Microsoft, Google, and so many others are experimenting with Web apps. It's their latest attempt to re-brand software as "content" and convince people to pay for it every month, just like they do cable TV. If they succeed, software publishers will be making far more profit than they do now, and their accountants will be boastful about how regular and predictable the cashflow is.

    Just say no to Web apps and every other attempt to sell software as subscriptions.

  33. Then why not Linux? by mangu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    - Despite rumours to the contrary, most of Microsoft's enterprise-level software is pretty solid, unless it's a 1.0 or 2.0 release.

    Linux has been rock-solid from version 1. Version 3 isn't being planned yet.

    - Our Exchange implementation was engineered by someone who knew what he was doing, and is now supported by someone who knows what he's doing.

    The main complaint against Linux is that it requires someone who "knows what he is doing". If the same is required of Microsoft solutions, then why not just use Linux?

  34. Whaddya Want For Nuthin? by TinPigeon · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm quite happy with Google Apps and all the uncertainty that comes with beta applications. I give credit to Google for keeping as much uptime as they do for such a robust, free suite. Sure, I've seen a few outages with Google. But I never lost any mail as with MobileMe. I actually dropped my MobileMe account in favor of Google Apps. Uptime was one reason, and so wasn't the fact that MobileMe mail isn't searchable beyond subject line. Occasionally losing connectivity is one thing. Paying $99/year for for that sort of service is quite unreasonable.