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Seattle Flushes $5M High-Tech Toilets
theodp writes "Hopes were high back in 2004 as Seattle's posh public potties opened for business. But four years later, city officials have said good riddance to the five high-tech toilets, self-cleaning and cylindrical, that had cost Seattle $5 million. The city unloaded them on eBay for just $12,549. The commodes had become filthy hide-outs for drug use and prostitution."
In Vancouver, BC, drug use and prostitution are (if not outright legal) decriminalized. This means that the government is able to help those with a problem instead of being forced to put them away in prison.
The public toilets getting abused is a sign of a much deeper problem. It's the puritanical mindset of Americans that pushes these normal behaviors into the shadows and away from the help that the victims so desperately need.
It's a total waste of time to sell these things. It just means fewer public bathrooms downtown, and if you've ever been to a city with no public bathrooms (Philadelphia), you know that the terrible smell is the result.
must have been swimming in their people's money to buy $5M in toilets. If I were a resident I'd be quite enraged over it.
Part of the hardcore faithful who believed in Apple long before it was cool again to do so
Sounds like they got ripped off in the first place. It shouldn't cost that much to develop something like that unless you have no clue about what you're doing.
I'm confused. This type of toilet is quite popular all sorts of places, so I guess they must be cheaper than providing toilets in some other way. But as Seattle aren't going to be replacing them with anything else... that is going to be cheaper. So, what's the story? That Seattle can't afford public toilets?
ccalam - acoustic versions of new songs.
Just gets better and better.
Still, you get the government you deserve.
Deleted
That sucks, but this is how progress works. You can't know if something will pan out in advance, because there are too many variables.
And if it had been a massive success, $5M would have been pocket change compared to the convenience and cost effectiveness of full automation.
How on earth did five toilets for $5 million get green-lighted? It must have been a consultant spending somebody else's money and with a fee to justify. How are the voters of Seattle going to reward that terrible waste? Just crazy. That's what's wrong with American right now--so many people willing to screw their fellow man if they can make a dollar off of it. Call it the American way (I would not) but it's killing us. We need to get some honesty and proportion back in our daily lives and business.
Seattle toilets are to drug users and prostitutes as the internet is to spammers and hackers. Discuss.
Syntax error: loose != lose, affect != effect, then!=than
This is like when they put up park benches that are intentionally made uncomfortable to sleep on. I understand why, but something is just wrong with society when that happens.
Let's see: They estimated maintenance costs of $600,000 a year. I don't know much about wages in the US, but it's fair to assume that 5 janitors would have done the job at a lower price.
Ignoring the price tag and maintenance cost I'm still wondering why those toilets failed in Seattle. We have toilets from the same manufacturer over here (Berlin, DE) and they don't attract much drug abuse or prostitution, because if you spend too much time in there the door simply opens.
I'm not kidding, it happened to a friend of mine who for some reason unknown to me decided to roll a joint in there. Since he told me I've stopped using them for their intended purpose.
I don't read replies by ACs.
It's called taxation...
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
4. Get voted out of office at the earliest opportunity.
It's a sad thing when standing up for the Constitution and working to greatly reduce violent crime guarantees someone would get voted out.
We have toilets from the same manufacturer over here (Berlin, DE) and they don't attract much drug abuse or prostitution, because if you spend too much time in there the door simply opens.
I'm not kidding, it happened to a friend of mine who for some reason unknown to me decided to roll a joint in there. Since he told me I've stopped using them for their intended purpose.
A) Funny parts bolded.
B) Your friend is slow. I suggest a rolling machine.
An expensive, fragile, high-tech gadget is dumped into the public space and ends up broken? I'm shocked.
I wonder how the argument for these went:
1. Do you suppose the automatic door-opening could possibly fail or be defeated? No, our technology is foolproof.
2. Do you suppose people may clog it up in a variety of artful ways? No, why would anyone purposefully mess up a public bathroom?
3. Do you suppose it may become a way-station for illegal acts that requires around 15min of privacy? No, all illegal acts require very long times and abundant space.
4. Isn't it expensive to buy/install? Don't worry, people excrete almost continually, the money will just pour in.
5. Won't it be expensive to maintain? No, modern technology maintains itself.
A) "Heh". You must be from the US, where smoking the green stuff at all is automatically equivalent to "drug abuse". So here's a newsflash: alcohol and tobacco are drugs too, and highly physically addictive ones at that (much unlike weed), but using those (in moderation) is fine and does not constitute "drug abuse".
B) True ;) Though if it took him 15+ minutes then surely he was not very practiced, so see (A) w.r.t. using the stuff in moderation. That's not abuse ;)
Every expression is true, for a given value of 'true'
Define "safe".
The U.S. has the biggest prison population in the world and outside of the various war zones, the most homicides and violent crime per capita of any country who has a government. You call that freedom?
The United States Government is an epic failure because it's rotten from the inside and run by self serving morons.
-Viz
Don't kid yourself. It's the size of the regexp AND how you use it that counts.
The difference, I imagine, is in the 'quality' of the public that surrounds the toilets. The particular venue these were installed at in Seattle is a prime tourist area mixed in with a hefty homeless population.
And since it is thriving with tourists, there is a bit of a crime problem as the more enterprising homeless find ways of making do off them.
I've never visited Berlin, but my limited knowledge of it is you enjoy moderately pleasant, if unpredictable, summers with bitter winters. That tends to keep the homeless population either down or 'pinned down' to specific areas.
There hasn't been one time that I've visited Seattle/downtown and not had a problem avoiding tripping over people living on the streets there. It didn't matter where in the area I was.
Granted, that was downtown. But still, you'd have to be a fool to put out any sort of public facilities there without either the expectation that either they would be trashed almost immediately and continuously, or that you'd have to actually pay someone to monitor them almost 24/7.
Pay toilets were popular in the U.S. in the 1970s. They ended up being banned in many cities; where they weren't, vandalism and theft put them out of business.
If you consider that the alternative to free public toilets is people pissing, even crapping, in the alleys, then free public toilets are clearly a public good. If people are using them for prostitution and drug use, if homeless people are using them for shelter, that's a symptom of deeper problems. These problems ought to be solved by removing laws against consensual crimes and by addressing homelessness with affordable housing and decent health care - not by encouraging people to piss in the alley.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
The next group who wishes to stay in office will just change them back though.
Same reason why many conservatives are hypocrites. They'll whine about how the Democrats are being a bunch of commies and how "This isn't the land of my fathers. The government is taking everything away. This country is no longer free!". All the while when they're going on about freedom.
Then if you dare mention legalizing drugs and/or prostitution, letting a TV network show what they want (like, heaven forbid a show with gay characters), or letting anybody worship whatever deity they choose, then they get up in arms. In my area of the country it's been hell just getting the blue laws repealed - there are still some towns that won't let you buy alcohol on a Sunday, and in the town next to the college I attended you couldn't buy general goods on Sunday - the super Wal-mart had a large divider that they had to pull between the grocery section and the general goods on Sundays :S.
Basically, they want freedom so long as the free act passes their "raht" philosophy. If "that ain't raht", then you shouldn't be able to do it - all other approved activities are fine to remain free.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
If weed is not addictive, why do so many people have to smoke it (not those or medical reason, regular health people). They crave it, they need it. I have seen a bunch of people (more then 30) where smoking weed was more important then everything else (working, bathing, going to work/school). All those people were weak and could have gotten addicted to anything? Weed is not addicting? Something does not add up.
I know I am going to be flamed into hell for this. But I do not see it. If one smokes weed 1-2 a week so what. The ones who smoke it 5-6 times a day every day and need to smoke it every day, that is an addiction. Most drugs (not all) taken in moderation are not harmful. I would say all drugs taken in extreme amounts are harmful.
These problems ought to be solved by removing laws against consensual crimes and by addressing homelessness with affordable housing and decent health care - not by encouraging people to piss in the alley.
I agree with you on the consensual crimes, but homelessness isn't likely to be solved by affordable housing. Many (most?) long term homeless people have serious addiction or mental health issues. Decent mental health care would probably have a big impact, along with rehab programs.
The drug itself is not addictive. The effects of the drug are addictive. This is true of anything really. If it makes you feel better than you usually do, you can get addicted to it. This is the same reason that for some, even exercise can be addictive.
Luckily I do not suffer from that particular affliction.
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
I've seen people do far more harm to themselves with a World of Warcraft addiction than a pot addiction. Just because some losers may not be able to handle something doesn't mean the people who aren't losers should be denied the use of it. That kind of thinking is a race to the bottom because there are always idiots who can't handle any given freedom.
Except that heroin is not 100% addictive: perhaps more like 10% of heroin users are addicts. And it was first synthesized in 1874 and only became popular after it was independently re-synthesized 23 years later, and was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute until 1910 - its addictive nature has in fact been understood for less than a century.
Yeah, you might end up like David Bowie or Keith Richards or hundreds of other famous musicians, actors, writers, artists who have used heroin...for those can afford their fix and have access to the pure stuff, heroin use or even addiction is not a big deal. It's less damaging to your body than addiction to cigarettes or alcohol.
As Bill Hicks noted, "If you don't think drugs have done good things for us, then take all of your records, tapes and CDs and burn them. Cause you know what? The musicians that made all that great music that's enhanced your lives throughout the years? Real fucking high on drugs."
Which is not to suggest anyone go shoot heroin. The crap you buy from typical street dealers is cut with gods-only-know-what and may well kill you; and really, there are better ways to spend your time and money.
Again, your facts are in error. The prostitution shops were only licensed in 2000, not "decades" ago. And they're shutting down owners believed to have criminal connections, not the entire district.
I will recommend Peter McWilliams' book Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in Our Free Country, available online at www.mcwilliams.com.
Sadly, McWilliams became a victim of the War on (some) Drugs when his access to medical marijuana, used to treat symptoms of AIDS and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma was ended; forced to switch to the ineffective Marinol, he aspirated his own vomit and choked to death.
The misinformation you are spreading is killing people. Please, cut it out.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Would you prefer the homeless crapped in the street? Thats the alternative, and I'd sure as hell rather pay for a damn public toilet. Granted, this was a stupid way to provide them- a port-o-potty or paying a local business to keep their bathrooms open (and policed) would be a lot cheaper.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
"Virtures"? No. I said "and really, there are better ways to spend your time and money." That's hardly calling heroin use a virtue.
The use of clean heroin of known strength and purity is rather safe. Stupid - really, really fscking stupid - but safe. A heroin addict using the "good" stuff does much, much less damage to their body than a heavy drinker or a typical cigarette smoker.
The use of adulterated heroin of unknown purity, often using shared needles, is dangerous. People do it because they can't get clean heroin of known strength and purity. They can't get it because it's banned. It's banned because of misinformation like what you are spreading.
Furthermore, the prohibition creates a violent black market, which fuels a great deal of violent crime.
So, yes. When you spread lies about drugs and work toward their prohibition, you are killing people. You have a small share of responsibility for every junkie who dies from a dirty needle or from bad smack, and for every kid shot in a drug deal gone bad, because you helped create the circumstances of their deaths.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
The drug itself is not addictive. The effects of the drug are addictive.
Sir, I hate to say this... in fact, I have never said this before because it IS such a cliche, but please believve me when I say, with absolute conviction, that that is the absolute dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say in my entire life.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
It is pretty difficult to get physically addicted to alcohol (I should know), but it is most definately possible.
I believe this has a lot to do with genetics. Native American tribes have some extremely high alcoholism, while Europeans generally don't, at least without extreme effort.
My theory is that areas that developed alcoholic beverages created evolutionary pressure for people who could handle them. Thus, like Europeans being more resistant to diseases like smallpox, they're also more resistant to alcoholism. As are Asians, and probably Indians.
I don't read AC A human right
"If weed is not addictive, why do so many people have to smoke it (not those or medical reason, regular health people). They crave it, they need it. "
compare:
If video games are not addictive, why do so many people have to play them (not those or medical reason, regular health people). They crave it, they need it.
If food is not addictive, why do so many people have to eat (not those or medical reason, regular health people). They crave it, they need it.
If oxygen is not addictive, why do so many people have to inhale it (not those or medical reason, regular health people). They crave it, they need it.
If sex is not addictive, why do so many people have to have it (not those or medical reason, regular health people). They crave it, they need it.
If nicotine is not addictive, why do so many people have to smoke it (not those or medical reason, regular health people). They crave it, they need it.
You can't just make a sweeping generalization like that. It's illogical and makes you sound like a moron. Go look up the real definition of addiction. People struggle with heroine, nicotine, alcohol, gambling, etc. People are pleasure seekers, and anything enjoyable is something that people might do to excess. Pot is just as addictive as any other pleasurable activity, sure, but I've never seen any real studies on the changes that show it to be more addictive than eating or sleeping (compared to say, cocaine, which has a direct effect on the mesolimbic reward pathway and changes the regulation of cellular signaling WRT dopamine in the human brain). Nicotine also causes brain chemistry changes, and ditto for caffeine. I've experienced caffeine withdrawl (more than once, too -- it's never fun).
If you're going to make such a statement, you need to differentiate between something that is addictive because of the sensations (think of nymphomaniacs, people who play WoW every day, or compulsive gamblers) vs. drugs which actually cause chemical dependence.
The Homeless are untouchable and holy to the Liberal Elite. "they can't help it" is a tired old excuse, and part of a sick co-dependency that should be treated by mental health professionals.
Are you trying to be funny? It costs a lot of money to keep homeless people locked up behind bars, a heck of a lot more money than just making a public shelter for them. The great majority of homeless people are suffering from moderate to severe mental problems that are going untreated. When they do get locked up the jail is becoming the de-facto mental hospital for them, something that was not intended but is the reality here in the US.
Wow, you're completely misinformed. Somebody already covered the Amsterdam angle, so I'll go after Las Vegas.
Prostitution is not legal in Las Vegas. It is legal in most of Nevada, and in most of Nevada it works quite well. The brothels are always away from the main part of the town, and they can't advertise so most tourists have no idea they are even there. They are clean and health inspectors make sure everything is on the up-and-up, which isn't always the case in Amsterdam. It's legal, so the women actually have recourse if they are abused or taken advantage of, which is pretty rare. What exactly is wrong with that?
If that was the case in Las Vegas, you wouldn't see street walkers and illegal immigrants giving out ads for call girls everywhere. You wouldn't see advertisements littered everywhere, turning the whole city into a trash dump. If drugs were legalized and moved indoors, and controlled aggressively (like a few states control alcohol), you wouldn't see drug dealers on every corner of the strip and half of the city. People could do what they are going to do anyway in controlled, safe environments, and gang violence would drop dramatically. The police could actually work at preventing damage to lives and property, instead of arresting thousands of people for petty crimes.
And what purpose do these laws actually serve? Do they stop people from using drugs or soliciting a prostitute? Obviously not, with the high rates of drug use that exist in this country and the ubiquity of prostitution everywhere (and if you don't think you can find drugs or prostitutes *everywhere* in the US you are sadly mistaken). They only serve to criminalize legitimate, if unappealing, behavior and turn what should be ordinary citizens into felons.
You think jails are cheaper than public restrooms? Seriously?
Just where are they going to go to perform basic bodily functions if there are no public restrooms?
Because people don't keep their problems to themselves. Poverty and homelessness lead to crime and disease, which affect us all.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
You sir are a Heartless libertarian cocksucker.
Prople like you are fucking up the whole world.
YOu are full of shit