Magpies Are Self-Aware

FireStormZ writes "Magpies can recognize themselves in a mirror, confounding the notion that self-awareness is the exclusive preserve of humans and a few higher mammals. It had been thought only four species of apes, bottlenose dolphins, and Asian elephants shared the human ability to recognize their own bodies in a mirror. But German scientists reported on Tuesday that magpies, a species with a brain structure very different from mammals, could also identify themselves. It had been thought that the neocortex brain area found in mammals was crucial to self-recognition. Yet birds, which last shared a common ancestor with mammals 300 million years ago, don't have a neocortex, suggesting that higher cognitive skills can develop in other ways."

Comments

I knew magpies are quite "smart"

[blind biker]

It has been known that magpies can solve various kinds of mechanical puzzles, much better than most (all?) other birds and even mammals. Now this isn't related to self-avareness, I guess, but it is quite interesting nonetheless.

Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart"

[kdemetter]

It's not that much the brain size , as the brain size in proportion to the body. The bigger the body , the more brain mass is required to control the body.

So a small creature with a relatively big head , could be as smart as a human being or more.

A big creature with a small brain , would be completely dumb.

Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart"

[dreamchaser]

Brain size in humans has less to do with intelligence as does brain structure. For example, Einstein's brain was not larger than normal but was missing some structures typically found and other regions were larger than normal.

To my knowledge there has never been any correlation found between brain size and intelligence in humans. If you have a citation I would like to see it for my own edification.

Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart"

[smittyoneeach]

Oh, the correlation was found, but you had to look at the evidence in a "special" way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craniometry

Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart"

[jambox]

I studied neural nets at University (years ago, I'm sure it's move on a lot since then) and this seems a hopeful turn-up.

Clearly, it'll be a very, very long time before there are computers with enough memory or power to model a mammalian brain. On the other hand, an avian brain seems to have extremely useful capabilities and is far, far more compact. Perhaps something useful can be inferred from the greater volume-to-power ratio of a magpie's grey matter?

Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart"

[KGIII]

Magpies also have been known to kick the shit out of people. Some of them even going so far as to attack just a single person over and over again.

I had a lady friend who was in Cann River, OZ and before visiting she'd had a magpie attack and beat the hell out of her head. She was all sorts of embarassed and it was even still showing where it had really beat the hell out of her. (I learned, later, that the mailman got it much worse on a regular basis there.)

So, yeah...

I'm going with sounds like my ex as well. Maybe that's the real reason why they used to call women "birds" back before it became politically incorrect to do so.

Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart"

[pnewhook]

I have two dogs and they can recognize both themselves in a mirror and me in a mirror. It's interesting actually - introducing them to the mirror as puppies, you can tell they think at first it is another dog, but after interaction they start to understand.

I've always thought it is sheer human arrogance to think that we are the only ones that are self aware. Animals are far smarter than we give them credit for.

I guess for some scientists it makes them feel better to think that the animals they are torturing aren't self aware and don't have any feelings.

Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart"

[stranger_to_himself]

There are hundreds of studies of brain size and intelligence in humans. Some find a positive correlation, some find no correlation. It seems to depend on how you define brain size (cranial volume, MRI or head circumference), and how you define intelligence. Taking all the evidence together there seems to be a small correlation. (Google scholar for brain size and intelligence if you are actually interested in the full picture, we could both cite references that support our relative points of view and that would be kind of pointless.)

Of course this will only account for a small amount of the variation in intelligence, and differences in structure (like in Einstein) will also play a role.

I know more about brain disease epidemiology than neuroscience however and there is no doubt that people with larger heads have less dementia, probably because of the increased brain reserve. It's a bit problematic to measure premorbid brain size any other way than head circumference in dementia studies, because as another poster pointed out a decrease in actual brain size is a pretty good correlate of loss of brain function (probably better than any other pathological measure of disease).

Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart"

[sm62704]

an avian brain seems to have extremely useful capabilities and is far, far more compact

Why hasn't anyone tried to model an insect's neurological functions? It seems that a honeybee's neurology would be quite useful in the design of an autonomous aircraft.

Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart"

[pnewhook]

I agree completely - the mirror test is practically useless.

Here's the test I did which I think is much more conclusive. Feel free to poke holes it it (It is slashdot afterall)

1) First introduce your dog to the mirror and get him to look at himself

2) Stand directly behind the dog, ensuring he cannot see you (dogs typically have +/-120 view so you have to be directly behind them)

3) Now silently wave at the dog so he directs his attention at your 'reflection' and not you directly

4) Silently give him the 'come here' hand signal (he must know this). My dogs *without any hesitation* turn around and come directly to me. If the dog thought that what he saw in the mirror was in any way real, then presumably he would have started towards the mirror instead of directly towards me. This shows he gets the concept of a mirror.

Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart"

[porcupine8]

I would be very, very surprised if they actually recognize themselves in a mirror, because there have been many studies showing that dogs cannot do this. What, specifically, do they do that indicates that they know the image is themselves?

Here is the most common test: put something on their head/face that they can't see or feel, but could see if they looked in a mirror. A dot with a marker, say. When they look in the mirror, do they try to get it off of themselves? I've seen videos of this done on monkeys who fail (they try to interact with the mirror image) and elephants who get really, really, annoyed that they can't get the paint off their head with their trunk.

Magpies are evil.

[acehole]

In Australia, when its nesting season for Magpies they swoop people who go within their territory. Now I had to walk a fair way to catch a bus which just happened to intersect with a couple of magpies. One particular time I had one swoop, peck and draw some blood on some demon birdesque fly-by. I ran and took shelter at a nearby mall and waited about 5 minutes or so. I saw other people walking around and assumed that the coast was clear and went on my merry way. However, said demon bird was waiting for me and attacked again. Why it didnt attack any of the other potential targets and instead wait for me I'll never know.

Re:Magpies are evil.

[totally bogus dude]

These stories are common, and my best guess is that they recognise individual people. Or at least, they think they do. I would guess that someone who they thought looked like you was at some stage a threat to them or their nest, maybe throwing rocks or otherwise exhibiting aggressive behaviour. After that, they'll start attacking them on sight to try to keep them away; and since you look similar enough, they treat you the same way. On the other hand, maybe it's even more general than that. Simply a way of walking, or particular shapes, or particularly colour combinations you wear, etc.

A friend of mine with twins has noticed that they will taken an instant liking or dislike to certain people, presumably based purely on how they look or sound. The assumption being that the babies are okay with people who resemble their family members, but get uncomfortable around people that look "strange". Maybe it's something similar to that.

We had magpies around for years because we used to feed them, and they'd nest in our yard sometimes and usually would nest pretty close by. In at least a decade of seeing them every day I've never had a problem with being swooped by them. The closest was one female magpie in particular that got very used to us over the years, and would make a habit of flying uncomfortably close in order to get attention. It was never aggressive though, merely a nuisance - like a dog that keeps hanging around right at your feet so you're always almost stepping on it. (It did that too.)

grey parrots as well

[fsiefken]

Lookup the intelligent grey parrots Alex or N'kisi, of which the intelligence has been compared to the intelligence of 6 year old human. Their intelligence might have evolved as a as "a consequence of their history of cooperative feeding as largely tree-dwelling birds in central Africa" (wikipedia: gray parrots). It might be that mirror neurons play an important role in the developmenet of intelligence: "A mirror neuron is a neuron which fires both when an animal acts and when the animal observes the same action performed by another (especially conspecific) animal. Thus, the neuron "mirrors" the behavior of another animal, as though the observer were itself acting. These neurons have been directly observed in primates, and are believed to exist in humans and in some birds. In humans, brain activity consistent with mirror neurons has been found in the premotor cortex and the inferior parietal cortex." (wikipedia mirror neuron).

Birds of a feather

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be very interesting to see similar studies conducted with crows, ravens and other members of the Corvidae family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvidae

Re:Birds of a feather

[Curmudgeonlyoldbloke]

I've seen crows repeatedly charge into a (reflective) window thinking that it's another crow attacking them. It's not a "red dot" test, but it shows some lack of self-awareness.

Roadside magpies

[kobotronic]

Watching the roadkill feeding magpies cooly walk around just behind the white road lines, you can tell they have worked out a pretty solid theory for how cars move and that they understand how the cars are dangerous hazards but nevertheless predictable and avoidable. Other birds simply take flight in panic and some don't even recognize cars as a hazard - dumb turkeys and pheasants dumbly just obliviously waddle out in traffic.

In Tokyo crows - corvid relatives of magpies - have been observed figuring out how to exploit the traffic signal cycles. The crows drop nuts in the path of the cars, in the middle of the pedestrian crossings, and patiently sit overhead waiting for the light to change so they can go down and have a look and pick up the nuts crushed by the car tires. Maybe these crows developed a theory of cars as practical and dependable "thing crushers" - producing crispy roadkill and other delicious crush jobs.

Fascinating birds.

Re:Roadside magpies

[KGIII]

I am not sure what lines you want to draw between the two but, well, I live in the United States of America.

The other day I had the enjoyable experience of showing my girlfriend the American Bald Eagle in situ. Err... Yeah... It wasn't posing or being held on someone's arm or the likes, it was wild.

Anyhow, it was in the road, on a blind corner, eating roadkill, and she was driving and almost hit the damned thing.

Side note: I'm pretty sure that, in this State, you're going right straight to jail, not even getting $200, if you paste a bald eagle with your car. She missed it, fortunately.

Self Aware or Vanity Test?

[Nymz]

I wouldn't rule out other creatures being self aware based on a visual sensory test, as a sense of self may be more strongly defined by other senses or perceptions. More likely the mirror test could tell us how preoccupied a creature is with their looks, so what would you call a creature that constantly looks for ways to compare itself with others?

Mirror, mirror, on the wall,
Who in this land is fairest of all?

Re:Self Aware or Vanity Test?

[javaxjb]

Our dog has been fascinated with mirrors. We have a mirror in the hallway at the bottom of the stairs. When we go up or down the stairs, he will first look at us from the bottom of the stairs and then often runs over to the mirror to watch us in the reflection. The reverse happens, too. If he catches sight of us in the mirror, he will sometimes run over to (or up) the stairs to meet us. If he can make the association between a reflection and the actual object, I have a hard time believing that he would not know the reflection of himself is in fact himself, regardless of what the standard mirror tests would say about dogs.

Birds are more intelligent then people think

[Anonymous Coward]

Birds actually have more brains than people realise - literally.

While they may not have a mammalian brain, they haven't been idle. Once they diverged from the rest of the raptor dinosaurs (or possibly before it, based on some evidence of mating/nesting habits), birds developed another brain 'layer' much like mammals did. This layer was not the same as the mammal one, but it was nonetheless more sophisticated than the reptilian brain stem we all inherit.

Certainly, birds have shown remarkable intelligence in various studies.

More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_intelligence

"In recent years it was realized that certain birds have developed high intelligence entirely convergently from mammals such as humans."

Problems with the mirror mark test

[Anonymous Coward]

The mirror mark test is long known to be a very non-definitive method for testing for self awareness. For one, it is subject to the "Clever Hans" effect, so named after a horse who could allegedly perform simple addition. For two, it assumes that if the animal moves to view the mark better that it is aware that the mark is on its own body. By placing the mark on an obvious place on the body, movements for better viewing on another individual would be the same as movements for better viewing on your own body in a mirror. For three, it uses one type of control but not an important one. The control most often use is a dot on a nonobvious place on the body. For example, a black dot on black feathers. However the most important control would be to place a mark on another individual and see if the animal responds to that.

Re:my dog...

[nawcom]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

Please understand what self-recognition in a mirror is. It has been known for a long time that dogs recognize their own scent, but with their black-and-white eyesight they have never shown any signs of recognizing themselves in a mirror, at least not in any social sense.

Re:Crows, for one

[SharpFang]

Don't give them all so much credit.

My "automatic vision systems" teacher gave an interesting lecture about research on hens. Hens are awfully dumb. They have an instinctive reaction to images of weasels (panic/run) and to sound (tweeting) of small chickens ("herd/care"). The researchers made a model of a weasel that was making the chicken noise. Hens exposed to this experienced software failure: they would freeze and stop reacting to all other external signals/impulses until the chirping weasel was removed. :)

Re:Crows, for one

[roaddemon]

I've always noticed that, despite their propensity for hanging around roadkill on busy highways, I've never seen a dead crow on the road.

Re:Crows, for one

[ShieldW0lf]

The reason we believe that animals aren't conscious, and are like little automaton, is because it allows us to treat them with callous disregard. Humans who are ideologically unbound from natural sympathy and empathy and treat other animals with callous disregard achieve dominance over their environment.

We do the same thing to the world itself. We are not OF this place, we are simply IN this place, temporarily, after which our soul will leave. So, we can treat the world itself with callous disregard, without consequence.

We also do this to other humans. They don't have a soul, only we have a soul. Therefore, we do not belittle ourselves when we belittle them, because we are so much more than they are, while they are simply creatures of the muck, like animals.

This ruthless perspective is an overwhelmingly effective tool. Therefore, it is the truth. The rest is just supporting mythology.

Re:Parrots, for another

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, my parrot used to do that. It would chew off a splinter of wood to just the right size, and use it for one of two functions - neck and head scratching, and nose picking. It would work on the wood until it was just the size it wanted. If it got it too small, it'd drop that, and start on another...

People who dissect cats don't keep pets?

[smchris]

Sometimes comes up in relation to cats. Never had a cat that didn't recognmize itself in the mirror. Routinely I can make eye contact with a cat in the mirror and it will turn toward the real me. Unravel the ramifications for a systems analysis of the AI.

But we had generally adopted adults. When we got kittens a few years ago, they didn't seem to recognize themselves in a mirror for many weeks. Which makes me wonder whether psychologists have often made the mistake of dismissing developmental psychology in other species. Perhaps thinking that kittens are more "pure" subjects?

Lesser mammels are pretty amazing too. Try to figure out what is going on when a squirrel or chipmunk runs a cat in circles around a tree. Risk-taking play behavior is an "interesting" way to ensure survival of the fittest.

Figures that the more alien the species, the harder to connect. Octopi would be an extreme example. If the estimates that they are as smart as dogs is true, it puts calamari in a different light. I'm good on the judgment that earthworms don't have the brain structures for consciousness, but we are only beginning to explore consciousness in humans much less the comparative physiology.

Re:Crows, for one

[mcvos]

I remember reading somewhere that they have quite advanced learning mechanisms. It is enough that one of them gets hit by a car and the rest who saw the incident know not to get hit by cars.

In a pop-sci magazine I once saw a photo of a robin hovering over a pool, with a story about how it had learned to hunt like a kingfisher. It just sat there watching the kingfisher fish, and when it left, the robin tried the same technique, refining it as it figured out what worked and what didn't. For example, it had to hover over the deeper part of the water to chanse the fish to the shallower part.

I find it very hard to believe, but the magazine is pretty reputable. Must have been the Einstein of robins.

Re:Crows, for one

[C0vardeAn0nim0]

i think this is the same thing that made pigs, dogs and cows a lot more docile than their wild counterparts. selective breeding.

dumb chickens are less likely to escape, wich is good for farmers.

you don't have to make a complex chirping weasel model to brain-freeze a chicken. just hold its head close to a surface, then draw a straight line with a marker starting on its beak and extending about 30cm. the chicken will stay there hypnotized for a couple of minutes.

Re:Crows, for one

[cmdr_tofu]

One what basis was it determined that the behavior was instinctive and not learned? Also I'm wondering if your conclusion (Hens are dumb) is due more to the fact that the hens were reared in an unnatural environment that stunted their learning. As a point wild turkeys are highly intelligent social animals. Factory farm raised turkeys never get the opportunity to develop the same skills and as a result are often regarded as "dumb". After seeing how easily advertising companies manipulate humans, I would surmise that humans are not so different from other animals.

the mirror test is incomplete isn't it?

[pbhj]

Anyone else wonder why they don't complete the experiment. The bird could simply be trying to establish if it has a sticker, like the other bird that it sees. This doesn't show self-recognition.

So you have a mirror, the bird sees the sticker and tries to remove a sticker from themselves. You also need to present an image of some other similar bird with a sticker and see if the subject assumes they too have a sticker.

You could have a two way mirror with a switch. You place either a model or real bird behind the mirror with a spot. See if when looking right through the mirror they behave the same. You'd also want to have the subject bird with a spot, looking in the mirror, flash off the lights and remove the spot, bring up the lights with the second bird behind the mirror with a spot on. Do they recognise the spot has gone (assuming they can't feel it's been removed)? This part would work well if the spot could be colour changed, eg by wetting.

I'd want to go further and use some video equipment for the mirror. That way you could test whether they perceive their own "reflection" when the image is flipped vertically. You could also digitally add a spot that wasn't there or present an image of the same bird with no spot when the bird subject does actually have a spot on.

Seems like quite a sloppy experiment - or are they just not telling us about the other parts.

Also since when was self-recognition == self-awareness?

Videos of the behavior

[InvisblePinkUnicorn]

PLoS has multiple videos of the magpies' behavior, all linked in the journal article.

Hawk intelligence

[aapold]

Its not a magpie but still an amusing story...

There's a location near here that is in a park and often used for weddings. A company provides a service in which at which they release a bunch of white doves at the appropriate moment of the marriage ceremony. Very beautiful and touching.

Well as they were doing this at a recent ceremony, everything went perfectly until the doves were released, at which point red-shouldered hawk swooped down and took the first dove in flight just as it crossed in front of the altar. An ominous omen to be sure...

The guy from the company that released the doves was upset. When trying to console him over the odds of such a freak assurance happening again, he responded that this had been going on at every ceremony they do in this park for some time, the hawk figured out that wedding ceremony = doves, and even figured out the timing of the ceremony to know when they would be released...

Cats

[Bonker]

All your base are...

Wait, what was I talking about? Oh yeah. Cats. Anyone who's owned a cat for ANY length of time knows that these creatures are perfectly self aware of of their own bodies.

Verify it for yourself. Put a large mirror in a room where an adult cat can easily access it. Hold the cat so that they can see themselves in the mirror. They'll try to act as if they don't like what they see and want AWAY from the mirror. A few more aggressive males will even pretend to fight with it.

Now leave the cat unsupervised in front of the mirror and watch obliquely by pretending to read a book.

Most cats will start to examine themselves in the mirror after a few minutes, turning so that they can see their body parts at different angles. They'll never look directly at their own face because a wide-eyed inspecting stare makes them uncomfortable. However, they will use the mirror to examine their own backs.

Every cat I've ever owned has done this.

Captcha: Unions. I sure wish I belonged to one.

Re:There is no God

[sm62704]

Once I've seen an elephant there is no argument nor logic you can put forth to make me not believe in elephants. By the same token, once one experiences God there is no wat to talk him out of his faith.

I have faith that elephants exist. There is no way you can shake that faith.

Re:Looping behaviour

[egomaniac]

It was a wasp, if I remember correctly. The wasp's "program" was to drag its paralyzed prey to its burrow, go inside the burrow and make sure the coast was clear, then return to the prey and drag it into the burrow.

But if the researchers moved the prey while the wasp was checking its burrow, it would reposition the prey and then check its burrow again. And it would repeat this as long as they kept moving it.

Re:Crows, for one

[pohl]

I've seen a video of a crow fashioning a hook out of a piece of wire and using it to snare something from the bottom of a glass beaker â" which exceeded the length of the crow's beak.

Re:Magpies are (not really) evil.

[MrKaos]

In Australia, when its nesting season for Magpies they swoop people who go within their territory.

slashdotters may understand how scarey this is if they realise that Australian Magpies are large enough to steal a spark plug socket that you just happen to leave near the car while you are changing a tyre and have to answer the phone. I paid twenty bucks for that socket and was really pissed off when, through the kitchen window, I saw it fly away firmly wedged in the magpies beak - little shithead.

I've observed many species of birds and animals at my house and I have come to the conclusion they not just have some reasonable level of intelligence but are actually insane as well.

When a few of my friends and I were getting drunk in my back yard, a possum fell out of a tree with an enormous thud. We actually pissed ourselves laughing, the possum actually looked embarrassed!!! I think the magpies are a lot smarter than the possums.

I saw kookaburra (they're the ones that make that laughing sound you hear in all the jungle movies - and that is what a backyard in Australia sounds like) whilst hunting for a meal - fuck it right up and crash into the ground wings still open. He got up, looked around, looked right at me and had a look that almost said "meh, just a human" and flew off. When the magpies, kurrawongs and kookies fight - it's worth watching the battles.

I saw three Magpies attacking a Indian Myna bird. Two of them were holding the Myna bird down on the hot road (it was hot!) while the third was jumping and swooping in a way that it's sharp beak was trying to break through the myna birds abdomen. I was amazed at the co-operation between the magpies. The Magpies seem to be scared shitless of lorikeets (a parrot) though. I have seen the lorikeets going for the magpies feet.

I think you'll find the magpie was giving you a compliment by saying - 'hey you've got the best hair I've seen, I'll take some for my nest human'. just face the little fucker and snap him if it gets to close - and be sure to chase it around when it's on the ground - it will learn pretty quick.

Magpies aren't just intelligent - they're crazy.

Re:Crows, for one

[Alistar]

My family used to have a cat, a tabby.
We would let it outside on a leach during the summer usually.

It only took the birds 3 days to realize how far that leash would reach and all the birds would stay just outside that range; eating fallen bird seed and just sitting on the grass.
Our cat would stalk up, then try to pounce. The birds wouldn't even flinch, well at least until my father lengthened the leash by a foot. That put some fear into them for a little bit.

Re:Crows, for one

[aug24]

If you showed me a baby that was roaring like a lion, or a lion that cried with a sound like my son, I might well stop still and think for a while too. Especially if I was in dim light or unable to see clearly for some reason.

It doesn't show that chickes are stupid, but that they didn't know what to do with conflicting information. We humans have extremely good vision, and will almost certainly go with whatever the eyes say (heh... the 'eye's have it... heh), but chickens' vision is less acute so they would be confused.

Justin.

Re:Crows, for one

[Whiteox]

Recognition by a bird in a mirror doesn't mean that it has 'consciousness', but understands that it is itself, so it is 'self aware'. This is due to the effect of natural reflection of (let's say) water. Some animals (lions, tigers and bears) would not be worried if they saw their own reflection in water. Others would - like dogs for example.

Bird Brains

[localman]

I think anyone who has taken the time to really get to know a pet parrot could tell you they seem to be about as smart as a dog or cat. Which is astonishing given their far smaller brain size. I had a couple cockatiels, who must have had brains like raisins, yet they exhibited fairly impressive learning abilities. Beyond just imitation of word sounds, they could connect those sounds to situations; I trained them to say "I'm hungry" whenever I brought them food. A more interesting one was the phrase "good bird", which I had used as generic praise, but which the male cockatiel spontaneously applied during and immediately following coitus with his mate.

Another one that impressed me was learning to walk on a glass table: at first they were afraid to step off of a plate placed on the table, looking with suspicion at the transparent surface. Eventually, with some crumbs on it, they were willing to carefully try walking on the crumb-sprinkled parts. Eventually they ventured out onto the clean parts as well, and within a few meals they had become totally comfortable walking on the glass.

In any case, it doesn't totally shock me that some birds test as self aware. I think there must be a different model for intelligence in birds. Much like other areas, birds seem to have adapted a weight-efficient means of carrying around what they need.

Cheers.

Re:Crows, for one

[Fishead]

I can attest that this works, and you are the first person outside of my family that I have heard it from.

I used to do that when I was giving the chore of separating the chicken from his head. I had an old beam that I would place the chicken on, stretch her neck out and draw a line away from her beak on some dirt on the beam. When you do that, the whole nervous system must be on pause because they don't even flap a wing after you cut their head off. Hmm... any biologists needing a research project?

My cat can do this

[Onyma]

One of my cats is 18 and (not to be too biased) one of the smartest cat's I've seen out of those I've known. I know he can easily recognize himself in a mirror and that he understands the concept of reflection well. He will often watch me from around the corner in a large hall mirror I have outside my office. If I call him from the office he will look at me in the mirror to see that I am motioning to him, then walk to where I am, not towards the reflection. He will also often clean in front of the mirror taking pauses to look at himself before moving on to another area. When done he'll leave for a more comfortable place to sleep.

My other cat ignored the mirror completely however he also never flipped out at his own, or his partner's reflections like he would when an unknown cat came into view. I can only infer that at some basic level he understood what a reflection was too.

What surprises me more is the limited list they assigned to mammals they thought were capable of this.

Is this Self-Awareness?

[GrayCalx]

Is this really the test/standard for self-awareness? I mean I guess its all a semantics debate at some level but I've always thought of self-awareness as being able to understand your (the self's) place in the grand scheme of society, Earth, and the Universe.

For instance, aren't robots at the level by now that they could be programmed to recognize their self in a mirror but perhaps not a similar model? Wouldn't that mean that robots are self-aware according to this definition?

Or maybe I'm missing something... like there is self-aware (recognize yourself in a mirror) and Self-Aware (realizing your place in the Universe).

PS : Poor vampires!!!

Re:Crows, for one

[fyngyrz]

Ants, termites, swallows, various corals, all build cities.

Birds and various apes use tools.

I can put a dollop of whipped cream on my cat's head, and when she gets on the washstand and looks in the mirror and sees it, she immediately licks her paw, reaches up to the top of her head, and wipes it off (and eats it.) She always gets it all, and turns her head this way and that while watching the mirror to make sure.

I taught her to do that. You know how? Trivial:

I put it on, used *my* finger to gets some off her head while she was watching in the mirror, and put it on her lips. I did this exactly once. Consequently, it is perfectly evident that she knows what she sees in the mirror perfectly well. It's just that she had no reason to care about what she saw until I gave her one.

If you have a cat, please try this; takes no special equipment other than whipped cream and a mirror, and I very much suspect there's nothing special about my cat as compared to yours; mine's a neutered female "snowshoe" meezer, just for reference. Here she is.

My experience with cats (I've always had at least one, and I'm 52) leads me to think they're the same as we are, they just tend to be similar to children in their mental capacities, except where they're neurologically better than we are (athletic abilities, predation, faster processing of threats and faster reactions, different set of vision compromises...) I've not had nearly as many dogs, but even so, I'm very comfortable saying they're like children with a different set of limits than cats. In turn, I strongly suspect that the rest of the animal kingdom follows in like fashion.

As far as I've ever been able to tell, the entire "we're superior to animals" meme is a consequence of hubris, thousands of years of religious nonsense, a lack of a decent way to really measure, quantify, and compare either us or them, and a baseline resistance because they're trivially easy to enslave and worse, plus they can't argue about it effectively, unlike humans.

IMHO, as a race, we have a long way to go. I don't see much hope for change, either. The citizens of my country (USA) are still convinced for the most part that they're the specially cared for children of an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent creator, who "made" animals for their convenience. Which would be pitiful, if the consequences weren't so outright savage for animals and people.

Here's a place where you can support victimless animal meat research; please consider donating. I do.

New Harvest - Non-profit

Re:Crows, for one

[leoxx]

IMHO the problem has nothing to do with whether an animal is self-aware but whether we can understand and classify the nature of its thoughts. It's like a european explorer watching an African dance ritual for the first time, and then deciding that because their skin is a different colour and they perform undecipherable rituals that they are not fully human. The problem is one of interpretation.

Re:Crows, for one

[Alpha830RulZ]

While not quite the same thing, I watched a crow roll an almost empty latte' cup around on a hill so that it could sip the last few drops out.

Only in Seattle do we have caffiene addicted crows.