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SSD Won't Make Sense In Laptops For Two Years

kgagne writes "While solid state disk drives can vastly improve random read performance and are perfectly suited to most mobile devices, many operations are sequential in laptops and desktops and involve writes where SSDs most often lose to magnetic hard disk drives in performance. While introducing multi-channel flash memory controllers and interleaving the NAND flash chips increases performance, it will still be about two years before the cost versus benefit ratio will make sense to install SSD in your laptop or desktop PC, according to a Computerworld story. '"I think you need to get to 128GB for around $200, and that's going to happen around 2010. Also, the industry needs to effectively communicate why consumers or enterprise users should pay more for less storage," says Joseph Unsworth, an analyst at Gartner Inc.'"

326 comments

  1. 120GB is too much. by symbolset · · Score: 4, Informative

    Try 16GB SDHC, available now for $50, delivered.

    One for the OS and apps, one for the data. Need more? Put the other ones in your pocket.

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    1. Re:120GB is too much. by karnal · · Score: 4, Informative

      I guarantee that the SDHC card you mention will not push any really reasonable speed.

      I bought this:

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208418

      Then I went to Addonics web site and ordered a CF to IDE adapter. Well, at first I ordered one on ebay. Turned out it didn't fully support DMA...??? Like they didn't complete all the traces properly... anyways, for 70$ or so total, I have a diskless machine in my garage that boots Ubuntu and plays music; no more whiney 80gb hard drive there.

      I think Linux reported hdparm stats of 25 to 30MB per second. Not too shabby; since the PC is only a 900 mhz athlon, I really can't tell if the CF is a limiting factor in speed. It feels just as snappy as when I had the original hard disk in; it probably boots a bit faster but I generally just turn it on and don't watch over it...

      --
      Karnal
    2. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speak for yourself, 120GB is miniscule. I'll just keep using hard drives until flash drives are able to compete both in storage space and price (ie. 1TB for $150).

    3. Re:120GB is too much. by symbolset · · Score: 5, Informative

      That was just the cheapest one today. There are dozens there and one will suit. I didn't have time to construct the capacity/price/performance grid and still get a first post. Sorry.

      If you need more than 16GB of OS and apps, you don't need a laptop really. Or if you do you're a power user with unusual needs - you're not in the "most people" zone where the price/performance sweet spot is. About 4GB is an XP install with Office, for 8GB you can have Ubuntu and a few hundred of your favorite free apps. If your system image is >12GB, you have other issues and you should expect to pay more. 16GB for OS & apps, 16GB for data is plenty for almost anybody.

      Not all SDHC->IDE or SDHC->PCMCIA or SDHC->SATA converters support booting, but most do and most SDHC adapters installed in laptops do support it. You can always try it. The ones that do are quite proud of the fact and so it won't be hard to tell which is which. The performance on these things can be quite fine. I don't know why they don't just put a socket for these things on a desktop motherboard. You have to buy the embedded motherboard for that.

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    4. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "16GB for data is plenty for almost anybody."

      Hahaha oh wow

    5. Re:120GB is too much. by Miseph · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, actually it is. And if it isn't, you can just swap out one for another. Or you could store your hundreds of hours of anime you only watch once a year on a big ol' external HDD. Heck, you could probably just let it live in the BitTorrent cloud where you got it all in the first place; it's not like you'll never have broadband again.

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    6. Re:120GB is too much. by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ever try to torrent something that isn't popular? Yeah. That's why you keep a local copy.

      --
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    7. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That might work for retards like you but regular people don't work like that.

    8. Re:120GB is too much. by Miseph · · Score: 1

      Then burn it to DVD. The point is that if you need more than 16 gb of data storage you're either being really lazy or doing things that put you well outside the needs of a normal user.

      Given the number of /.ers who will cut your balls off for suggesting that setting up redundant off-site back-ups for your personal porn collection might be overkill, it's surprising that nobody seems to think even *having* 16gb of data on your disk is a terrible idea, let alone scoffing at the idea you don't need a whole lot more.

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    9. Re:120GB is too much. by rockout · · Score: 2, Funny

      My MacBook Air doesn't have a DVD player, you insensitive clod!

      Oh, wait....

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    10. Re:120GB is too much. by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Networking makes the 16GB local drives plenty big enough. If the network is completely transparent, with automatic network drives available for the less frequently used files. That kind of local caching should be automatic, and the Gb ethernet a hassle-free bottleneck (no "login", etc).

      Then 16GB for $50 means that SSD has fully arrived. Even if the SSD vendors still want $200 for whatever they'll try to sell you.

      Which means that really, now, it's a UI and software problem to solve. The HW is ready. Isn't that always the case?

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    11. Re:120GB is too much. by clang_jangle · · Score: 1

      On my desktop machine the root partition is 120GB, so far I've used 79.37 GB. That's with OSX, lots of pro multimedia software installed -- so basically, I have over 79GB of apps and system. My home directory is on a separate 240GB partitiion.I'm about to upgrade my (160GB) laptop so I have a mobile replacement that can keep up. We're entering the TB era; 16GB is woefully inadequate for anything but a netbook or a phone. And in just a couple of years, it won't be enough for those either.

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    12. Re:120GB is too much. by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Ok, that's Hitachi. Is Fujitsu in the house?

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    13. Re:120GB is too much. by karnal · · Score: 1

      Wasn't trying to cramp your style; just wanted to point out that while my solution for cost per gigabyte was much higher, it will result in a more hard drive-ish experience for the end user than buying the cheapest SD card that you can find at a given capacity. This is actually the reason I did a whole lotta googlin' and a whole lotta reading on what others had gone through in doing a project such as this.

      I can truly see myself picking up an SSD once the 64GB drives hit around 100$. Why? Well, the speed will be on par with the fastest consumer drives if not faster due to the seek times. As well, I agree with your sentiment regarding not needing storage space for useless things --> on the desktop or on a laptop. If I can access my content via my home network 95% of the time (5% travel, give or take) then I'd be happy with 16+16GB. Note this would probably only be feasable on a laptop, as my gaming desktop tends to have space eaten by games. I use network storage for anything media related (app installs, movies, music and picture collection) and local is reserved for scratch/games/dvd re-encode "swap."

      --
      Karnal
    14. Re:120GB is too much. by coryking · · Score: 1

      16GB is woefully inadequate for anything but a netbook or a phone

      Even then 16gb is inadequate.

      The world is moving to digitized video (netflix, tivo, etc). You are looking at a gig an hour for standard diff and probably 3-5 gigs an hour for hi-def. Within a year or so, I promise your phone will be able to play 1080i hi-def content at native resolution.

      And the "OMG Bloatware we should all be using hand-rolled for-loops in C" people can step back into their timewarp from 1970. We have fast machines now and pulling off human friendly UI effects like that on the iPhone ain't cheap. And dont even start with "OMG eye candy" because quite frankly, the smooth scrolling and "human" touches make the user experience so much better then before. Turn off those things and the iPhone would feel bland and dull.

      Arg... I hate technophobes who wind up working in technology.

    15. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Let's see.

      For a 1TB hard drive you would need 200+ DVDs.
      1TB drive is $150, 200 DVDs would be about $120.

      I think I'd rather just spend the extra $30 and get the hard drive since it's much faster, takes less physical space, is rewritable and I don't have to go digging around stacks of discs.

      People who say that 16GB is enough are naive. It might be enough *for you*, but your needs don't represent everyone else's needs. For example, I own enough CDs to fill 30GB worth of space in MP3 compressed format. I own enough DVDs to fill 100GB if I compress each film down to only 1GB each. I work with image files that take 200-300MB for each master copy. I work with audio projects that take 500-1000MB each. The average size of a modern game is 5-10GB. Windows XP takes 4-5GB (while Vista takes about 15GB). Do you see where this is going?

      So no, 16GB is FAR from enough space.

    16. Re:120GB is too much. by lysergic.acid · · Score: 2, Informative

      i have a hard time finding blank DVDs that last more than a 3-4 years. and backing up hundreds of gigabytes of files onto DVDs tends to ruin your DVD burner pretty fast. not to mention it's a lot easier to lose/damage data stored in hundreds of separate DVD's than a couple of harddrives.

      it's pretty presumptuous to think that every one has the same needs/preferences as you.

    17. Re:120GB is too much. by master5o1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You do know that this is a nerd infested website. You can never get enough data storage.

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    18. Re:120GB is too much. by symbolset · · Score: 1

      This is actually the reason I did a whole lotta googlin' and a whole lotta reading on what others had gone through in doing a project such as this.

      I do this on a regular basis. For home desktops on LAN I like low power units that PXE boot to LTSP for a Myth or Ubuntu desktop. I've given up on fan noise -- it ruins the computing experience for me these days. Notebooks I'm going with 30GB IDE drives this year because they came with them, but will probably bump that to 320GB before Christmas for magnetic media because my laptops are older. But if I was getting a new laptop it would be all SSD or SDHC even now, with external 2.5" USB drives for the bigger data. The dual core Atom Netbooks are looking sweet for Q4. I find myself booting Ubuntu from the pen drive more and more often, just because it's ready to rock in four seconds. USB 2.0 is fast enough for data. The lack of moving parts is a big win for flash media. The torque from a minor bump on a 2.5" centrifuge clipping 5000 RPM is pretty huge. 16GB is enough for OS&Apps. Any more than that and image storage is a bear. I keep system images of my machines using Clonezilla to make rebuilding easier, and I like a lot of waypoint snapshots.

      It was looking for a while like CF was going to win here. Compact flash interface is perfectly compatible with IDE, so it makes a good intermediate step so I agree with you there. 1" hard drives did look for a while like they were the answer in the CF form factor. The thing is that MicroSDHC is about the size of four grains of rice and is available in 8GB sizes already. It's easy to see that the Compact flash form factor isn't going to be needed in the long term. Also, IDE is being deprecated in favor of SATA, which suits SD better. Still if you have a CF camera this is not a bad choice.

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    19. Re:120GB is too much. by symbolset · · Score: 2, Interesting

      it's pretty presumptuous to think that every one has the same needs/preferences as you.

      I've been called presumptuous before. It doesn't bother me. That's the price I have to pay to school people on how stuff works. The thing is, I didn't say this would suit everybody. I said it would suit most everybody. The difference is that the people whose needs exceed the usual should expect to pay more. In this case, they should expect to exit the sweet spot and pay a lot more for the bleeding edge. To them it's worth it. For most folks, the sweet spot is a nice place to be.

      You can get a 320GB USB powered 2.5" drive for cheap. They'll be selling them in your 7/11 soon, but you can get them at your favorite department or office supply store now. If your data needs are high (and mine are - I capture server images on one of mine), it'll deliver your data as fast as a laptop drive can. On days when you don't need to access your media library or capture system images to get your job done, you can leave it in your pocket and experience the joys of low power usage. Ain't choice great?

      So it boils down to folks that can't get their apps installed in 16GB. For those few they do offer a 32GB SDHC for $230 delivered. That's a lot more, but it's not out of the realm of reasonable if you have those special needs. 12 months from now that'll be $80, and three years from now it'll be offered in the MicroSD form factor for your phone.

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    20. Re:120GB is too much. by kraemate · · Score: 1

      Bad example
      OSX is the biggest disk-hog ever.
      On my new MB with nothing but the OS installed it took about 20G. Software packages for it are humungus.
      Base ubuntu install takes 2G and it comes with all that OSX ships with. (including a _real_ office suite).

      Anybody else feel OSX uses up too much disk space?

    21. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      wasn't we talking about laptops? or you are planning to do video editing on the eee pc?
      as the parent said, 16+16gb is more than enough for a portable, if you use the damn thing as a portable! the term you are searching for is desktop replacement. and even there most 2.5 drives have insane price/size/performance characteristic, so I normally use a 500g esata drive to all my desktop replacement needs.

    22. Re:120GB is too much. by AllynM · · Score: 2, Interesting

      or you could just use one of these:

      http://www.photofast.tw/eng/SSD_CR9000.html

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    23. Re:120GB is too much. by symbolset · · Score: 1

      We have fast machines now and pulling off human friendly UI effects like that on the iPhone ain't cheap.

      Actually, the iPhone is a fairly low power device and its effects and then some are no problem. It does not have 32GB of storage. Compiz is far more capable even than Vista's desktop and lovely but if you're wedded to the Jobs & Gates platforms, you can't have it. Not yours. Sorry. Maybe next decade when Microsoft and their vassals have thoroughly embraced "compatibility".

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    24. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For me, a base OS X install usually hits around 5GB...

    25. Re:120GB is too much. by JohnBailey · · Score: 1

      People who say that 16GB is enough are naive. It might be enough *for you*, but your needs don't represent everyone else's needs. For example, I own enough CDs to fill 30GB worth of space in MP3 compressed format. I own enough DVDs to fill 100GB if I compress each film down to only 1GB each. I work with image files that take 200-300MB for each master copy. I work with audio projects that take 500-1000MB each. The average size of a modern game is 5-10GB. Windows XP takes 4-5GB (while Vista takes about 15GB). Do you see where this is going? So no, 16GB is FAR from enough space.

      And you need to carry all that around on a laptop at all times?

      --
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    26. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a different person, but...
      If I'm spending more than a day away from my desktop, yes.

      I understand how this concept may seem strange to Slashdot users.

    27. Re:120GB is too much. by renoX · · Score: 1

      While the SDHC do not have good enough access time for this usage, I agree with you that 120GB is too much: IMHO, it's much better to have a combination of 'small' (32GB) of fast (SLC) Flash disk + a HDD than having a bigger slower Flash provided that the OS is able to use a part of the Flash disk as a temporary cache for the data used.

      Why not a bigger RAM instead? Because the Flash is permanent so you can be sure that once you have copied your data to the Flash disk even if there's a power failure afterwards the OS will keep your data..

      So small & fast Flash + HDD gives you: access time of flash (most of the time) + disk bandwidth (provided the bandwidth of the Flash disk is bigger than the HDD one of course) + disk capacity: the best of both world.

    28. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and you think that you are the typical desktop user?

      Most regular desktop users that I know who are not: technically inclined, and are past puberty have a huge empty disk in their computer.

      For them 16G could very likely be enough.

    29. Re:120GB is too much. by greentshirt · · Score: 1

      Lol I guess you found some of whatever Bill Gates was smoking.

    30. Re:120GB is too much. by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      I got a dual CFIDE adapter, two CFs and striped them with RAID0.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    31. Re:120GB is too much. by Thiez · · Score: 1

      Probably not his 30 GB of music, he could stuff that on an external HD. But he'll probably need his operating system, audio projects, and a game or two. Also, it's nice to have enough space to be able to defragment, and a few free GB should you unexpectedly need them.

    32. Re:120GB is too much. by Thiez · · Score: 1

      > Which means that really, now, it's a UI and software problem to solve. The HW is ready. Isn't that always the case?

      I guess it is, then again, in most situations there is little point in writing software that needs nonexistant hardware, so it is only natural that the hardware is ready before the software is.

    33. Re:120GB is too much. by MrMr · · Score: 1

      You can never get enough data storage.
      pff...
      man rm

    34. Re:120GB is too much. by digitig · · Score: 1

      On days when you don't need to access your media library or capture system images to get your job done, you can leave it in your pocket and experience the joys of low power usage. Ain't choice great?

      Yep, and that's your choice. For me? Well, I can usually get to a power outlet so power saving isn't a a significant issue, and I'd sooner not weigh my pockets down with all the extra junk. Yes, I could work by spending a couple of hours before each trip uninstalling stuff that I won't need and installing stuff I will, and I could lug extra crap around with me, and if that works for you then fine, but my choice is to have it all in one place ready to pick up as I run out of the door.

      --
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    35. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Guess presumptuous was the wrong word...how about total douchebag?

    36. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My laptop is my primary computer.

    37. Re:120GB is too much. by thompson.ash · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Thing that gets me is anyone that says all this...

      Never leaves a name.

      Way to go big man. You're such hot-shit and you're so high and mighty, take responsibilty for your words.

      If you're too scared to be held accountable for your comments, don't make them, and don't clog up the internet with your mindless drivvel.

      --
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    38. Re:120GB is too much. by Aranykai · · Score: 1

      Within a year or so, I promise your phone will be able to play 1080i hi-def content at native resolution.

      Right, and we'll be flying cars and colonizing the moon by 2010...

      Even at 300px per inch, that would make the screen over three and a half inches tall.

      --
      If sharing a song makes you a pirate, what do I have to share to be a ninja?
    39. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A non issue, the MacBook Air overheats before Luke has his first "Bad feeling about this" anyway.

    40. Re:120GB is too much. by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      So put the hard drive in an external case, and only connect it up when you need to...

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    41. Re:120GB is too much. by /ASCII · · Score: 1

      My main storage is a 3 TB NAS (4 x 1 TB RAID5), and no laptop comes even close to that amount of storage. So I have to accept that I can only bring a tiny bit of my data set with me on the road no matter what. I can fit in all I need in about 10 GB, going up to 100 GB wouldn't make a lot of difference. So I'd happily go down to 10 or 16 GB of laptop storage if it meant longer battery life, silent operation and higher speeds.

      --
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    42. Re:120GB is too much. by Walter+Carver · · Score: 2, Funny

      The HDD may cost less but:

      1. you can't through an HDD at the other side of the room and survive
      2. HDDs can be written again, DVDs can't which gives them the benefit in case of an error

    43. Re:120GB is too much. by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      My MacBook Air doesn't have a DVD player, you insensitive clod!

      I am a clod, you insensitive fruitcake!

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    44. Re:120GB is too much. by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 2, Funny

      man rm

      Oh f****! I read that as 'rm man'! I was in /usr/bin as root at the time! Crap! Now I can't read any man pages! Anyone know how to fix this? I would RTFM, but I can't anymore!

    45. Re:120GB is too much. by MrMr · · Score: 1

      Simple fix:
      Compile this

    46. Re:120GB is too much. by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      wooosh.

    47. Re:120GB is too much. by BlackBloq · · Score: 0

      1 Sandisk 30GB SDHC card. 2 Sandisk Firewire reader. Format to native OS = SSD I run this configuration to get more performance out of Photoshop. I have deep undo histories and run out of memory a lot (wacom strokes). I use this configuration with a 4GB UDMA card as the 1st scratch disk so my HD doesnt get thrashed. Also I move all important project files to the drive for super fast file access. NOTE: I only endorse Sandisk due to the fact that they have the best UDMA record (fully working controller, duplex works fine) in tests (RTFA http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/08/07/12/1851251.shtml).

    48. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you can get 200 DVD's for about $40AU not 200.

    49. Re:120GB is too much. by mollymoo · · Score: 1

      16 GB is enough for most people. If you can't see that your needs are massively abnormal (200MB image files? Yeah, my gran does that every day) I suggest you go out and meet some normal people.

      --
      Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
    50. Re:120GB is too much. by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      The point is that if you need more than 16 gb of data storage you're either being really lazy or doing things that put you well outside the needs of a normal user.

      Listening to music or watching videos on laptops is normal these days. And if people are taking a laptop with them, no one wants to go back to having to take loads of CDs, DVDs or lug external hard drives around with them! Since large hard drives are common place now, no one is going to take a downgrade.

    51. Re:120GB is too much. by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

      you can't through an HDD at the other side of the room and survive

      And you can't put a DVD in the microwave and have it survive. That is why we neither microwave DVDs, nor throw HDDs at the wall.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    52. Re:120GB is too much. by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

      16 GB is enough for most people.

      That's a laugh. 16 GB is not enough for most people, not even close. If you'd have said 40 GB, or 80 GB, it might be true, but 16 is paltry. Consider: Windows XP is 5 or 6 GB. That leaves you with 10. Most people will have some music on their laptop, let's say you have 2 GB (not an unreasonable amount by any means). We're down to 8. Not even any applications installed yet, which could easily eat 8 GB. If you want a game on the laptop (and many people are gamers, don't even try to claim this isn't normal usage), kiss 5+ GB goodbye.

      A "normal" user will easily chew through 16 GB.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    53. Re:120GB is too much. by MrMr · · Score: 1

      Indeed.

    54. Re:120GB is too much. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      For a lot of people, a laptop is their primary (even only) computer. Laptop sales passed desktop sales last year and so that isn't going to change any time soon. For most people having a laptop and a desktop makes no sense - you spend far too much effort keeping files synchronised between the two. Just keeping everything on your laptop makes a lot more sense because then it's always with you. The only people who really need a desktop these days are the ones doing a lot of gaming, and a lot of these are buying a console and a laptop instead of a desktop and a laptop, since it's cheaper. The other people buying desktops are the ones who find laptops too expensive for the performance they need, but this set is going to get smaller every year since economies of scale are shifting from desktop to laptop parts.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    55. Re:120GB is too much. by suggsjc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You are missing the point. I had a whole post (with numbers/calculations) done, but it all boils down to this. If you are using your laptop as your main storage point (probably a bad idea), then yes 16GB is probably not enough. But if you are smart about it, then you can easily make it work. Worst case scenario for your CD's (320kbps) would come out to over a week of continuous music. If you are one of those "I need all of my songs with me at all times" people, then again 16GB may not work for you. But I go through phases and want to hear different styles at different times, so I can easily swap out what I want to hear from my main storage, out of my +20GB worth of music I probably only list to maybe a GB at a time, and probably 60-70% is stuff that I will never listen to again.
      You can take that rough principle above and apply it to all of your other examples as well. You can easily use more than 16GB worth of storage. But with just a tiny bit of effort you can also easily live happily with less, and probably much less. Does that mean I'm jumping on the SSD bandwagon at this point, nope...I'll wait for it to be cost effective for me and my usage habits, and I don't need a /. article to let me know when that time will be.

      --
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    56. Re:120GB is too much. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      The software side was solved well over a decade. Google Andrew filesystem. The designers of the system created something to replace it more recently, but I can't remember what it was called. Run an AFS server on your NAS and a client on your laptop, and as long as you're periodically near a network you shouldn't notice. For a single user, AFS is perfect. For multiple users it's good for a large subset of usage patterns.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    57. Re:120GB is too much. by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Then burn it to DVD. The point is that if you need more than 16 gb of data storage you're either being really lazy or doing things that put you well outside the needs of a normal user.

      Not everybody is a normal user. Lots of people aren't, in fact. Not everybody uses his laptop just for watching anime. Mine contains development tools, several big software projects, and tons of data to with. And, allright, the occasional game.

      All of these things have been getting a lot bigger in the last 20 years, and having storage space be a severely limiting factor is annoying and time consuming.

    58. Re:120GB is too much. by mcvos · · Score: 3, Insightful

      wasn't we talking about laptops? or you are planning to do video editing on the eee pc?

      Contrary to popular belief, not every laptop is an eee pc.

      as the parent said, 16+16gb is more than enough for a portable, if you use the damn thing as a portable!

      If you use the damn thing the way you use a damn portable. Which probably means "for nothing particularly useful".

      Lots of people here have jobs which require their laptops to be a portable workstation. That means both speed and size of the harddisk are important.

      A co-worker just got a new laptop with SSD, and it boots Windows in about 2 seconds. I assure you there are many situations where that's well worth the money.

    59. Re:120GB is too much. by Talrinys · · Score: 1

      I need all my music on my laptop, really good to be able to spontaneously make mixes, it's good as a backup for my desktop - and of course adding an external element to my DJ setup could prove to be a very bad idea. There are different needs for different situations :) I need at least 120GB of space for my music currently, i just bought a new laptop with a 250GB disk that should fit nicely. And besides the "16GB is enough, so get an SSD with that" argument is terrible, as there already are solutions like this, and they obviously are not replacing regular laptops across the board. Lots of people use laptops as their primary computer :)

    60. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How am I missing the point? I was arguing that using a hard drive is a lot better than using hundreds of DVDs for storage as the GP suggested.

      First of all, I only own laptop computers.

      How is using a laptop any worse than using a desktop for storage? It's a computer. It's meant to store and process data like any computer.

      As far as music goes, I guess I have wider tastes. I like having all of my music easily accessible so that I can play whatever I feel like hearing from moment to moment. I also happen to use my laptop for composition and DJ performances, so it's important that I have a lot of music with me. Beyond that, I am certainly not going to waste the time or prematurely wear out my optical drive by constantly re-ripping CDs.

      Even on a minimal system, 16GB is not enough of space.

      -5GB for Windows XP (heaven forbid if the person is running Vista, which the average, unknowing consumer will most likely get when they buy a new PC)
      -1GB for page/swap space
      -5GB for applications
      -2GB for miscellaneous personal files

      That leaves 3GB of free space. That isn't a lot of wiggle room.

      To put this into perspective, my portable MP3 player and digital camera each have 16GB of storage. They are only appliances. A laptop is a full blown computer.

    61. Re:120GB is too much. by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Any software solution that requires googling it, then manually installing it on both servers and all clients, and configuring it, is also another set of problems.

      AFS is a component of the solution, just like Flash chips were a component of an SSD solution. Until someone packages it into plug & play, it's still a solution waiting to happen. Yes, it can be solved, but it isn't yet solved.

      When Ubuntu ships with SSD and that caching system I described enabled by default, perhaps it will have been solved. It's good to know we're close, but no cigar yet.

      --

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    62. Re:120GB is too much. by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      No, the action of software is not always entirely a subset of the functionality of the hardware. Not the default HW functionality, anyway. There's lots of software that works around or compensates for limitations of the hardware. Except in the purely academic sense, which is not what software developers work against, anyway.

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      --
      make install -not war

    63. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was talking about normal laptops not subnotebooks. Since the article only mentions "laptop" and "alternative to hard disk drives in laptops and PCs", it's fairly safe to assume that they are also talking about normal laptops.

      A laptop is a desktop replacement for many people. I see no reason why I shouldn't use them as such. They are as powerful and capable as most desktop computers, but in a more convenient form factor. FYI, I also use an external HDD with my laptop for backup and storage purposes. The internal drive is not enough space on its own.

      Wait a minute, you're saying that 16+16GB is enough for a portable and yet you admit to using a 500GB drive for your "desktop replacement needs". Are you advocating for or against small capacity drives? You might want to figure out what you are trying to argue before actually arguing it next time.

    64. Re:120GB is too much. by The+Gaytriot · · Score: 1

      I can agree on this point. I have a EEEpc sized laptop called the Acer Aspire One (about $330 on Newegg). It comes with an 8Gb SSD which is more than enough for what I'm doing on it. I have a small server at home which has shared network drives and from which I can stream music and videos, so I don't run into storage space issues at all.

      16Gb is definitely not enough for most people's needs, but I think at this point SSDs lend themselves very well to portable computing. The laptop is almost dead silent, very shock resistant, and its networking capabilities make up for most of its shortcomings.

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    65. Re:120GB is too much. by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Very nice. Want.

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    66. Re:120GB is too much. by Walter+Carver · · Score: 1

      No, you are not getting my point. You can be careless with DVDs. They can sustain more. Putting DVDs in the oven is not part of my everyday routine but I have accidently dropped DVDs to the floor numberous times.

      You are an HDD man aren't you? :)

    67. Re:120GB is too much. by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

      You have to be careful with both media, just in different ways. You can drop a DVD, but you can also leave a hard drive sitting on a dusty desk without fear that it'll be ruined from a scratch. I wouldn't say there's a real difference in how careful you have to be with either, but HDDs have a serious convenience and size advantage over DVDs. I can see choosing a SSD over an HDD if you don't have space concerns, but I can't ever see myself choosing optical media over a HDD, except for quick-and-dirty, disposable media for sneakernet transfers.

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    68. Re:120GB is too much. by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Guess presumptuous was the wrong word...how about total douchebag?

      I guess I can agree with that. :-)

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    69. Re:120GB is too much. by travbrad · · Score: 1

      Not to mention if you play any sort of games (which I think would benefit from a SSD with faster load times). The last game I installed (Mass Effect) took around 11-12GB by itself.

    70. Re:120GB is too much. by symbolset · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A "normal" user will easily chew through 16 GB.

      Imagine for a moment that your boot media, OS and apps are on an SDHC card. Naturally these are made to pop out. For gaming you can pop in your gaming boot chip. For work you can swap in the work boot chip. You can fit a terabyte of these things in your pocket and they're really quite durable. Since they boot in just a couple seconds it's not a big deal to switch. I like keeping the functions separate, and I can use Clonezilla to take a waypoint image of a card and save it to a share as system backup or to try out risky things. They do sell a 32GB chip but they're spendy right now. By Christmas they should be more reasonable. Flash media right now is doubling at a faster pace than anything else, and it likely will continue to do so for some time so if your target image size is 64GB, you won't have an unbearable wait before they're more reasonably priced. I should warn you though, if your OS has a huge image and it has to process many times more data than another OS just to start, performance will lag.

      I put colorful stickers on mine - it makes finding the right one really convenient.

      For data I have an assortment of media, from more SDHC cards and pen drives to external USB 2.5" drives to a monster 1TB eSATA drive for big needs. Frankly though I do my best to keep my data in the server where it's better protected and reliably backed up. Most people aren't going to need all this stuff. It's all about what works for you.

      This works well for me. Your mileage may vary.

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    71. Re:120GB is too much. by Baton+Rogue · · Score: 1

      The point is that if you need more than 16 gb of data storage you're either being really lazy or doing things that put you well outside the needs of a normal user

      Or you're installing Windows Vista, which starts at about 5GB, or almost 1/3 of your disk space.

    72. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how much will a terabyte in 16GB cards cost?

      How do you get around the fact that it would be illegal to have Windows installed on more than one of those flash cards? Buy a license for each?

      What if you want to work and play a game simultaneously? Work and music? Copy/move a file from one flash card to another?

      How do you quickly search and access a single file that may reside on any of those cards? Keep a file database on each card? Swap them out until you get the right one?

      A "normal user"? Define normal. Have any proof of your claims? Why do 95% of all new PCs on the market come with hard drives that are larger than 16GB if "normal users" don't want/need them?

      I'm sorry but your idea sounds awfully inconvenient. To be blunt, it's downright idiotic.

    73. Re:120GB is too much. by TheQuantumShift · · Score: 1

      I miss my IBM XT too, but do we really want to go back to swapping floppies? Currently 16 GB is enough only for anyone who doesn't do anything with digital media... My CD collection takes 16GB by itself. RAW files from my camera take ~10MB each, and let's not even get into video. You have to remember that most laptops are sold as desktop replacements. Only us geeks have an overpowered desktop, terabyte raid NAS and a laptop (bare minimum). And since Vista + Page File = ~10GB... Of course Linux uses less and does more, but that's not what comes pre-loaded (yet).

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    74. Re:120GB is too much. by symbolset · · Score: 1

      How do you get around the fact that it would be illegal to have Windows installed on more than one of those flash cards? Buy a license for each?

      I never advocate violating the terms of a license agreement in as much as the terms of the agreement are binding in your jurisdiction. Spending the time coming to an understanding the nuances of each license and the fees for consulting your attorney in this regard are just part of the cost of using commercial software. Yes, if you need more than one license for Windows you should buy the licenses you need. Or skip it and use free stuff as much as you can.

      What if you want to work and play a game simultaneously? Work and music? Copy/move a file from one flash card to another?

      I'm sure you're bright enough to figure this stuff out.

      How do you quickly search and access a single file that may reside on any of those cards? Keep a file database on each card? Swap them out until you get the right one?

      I did say I keep the data on the network, didn't I? (reviews) Yes, I did. If I need to take my files somewhere off the network I prepare in advance and know where I put them. Otherwise I would not know when one was lost.

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    75. Re:120GB is too much. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      The time spent swapping and reading and writing the 200 DVDs is worth a hell of a lot more than $30 to me, pal.

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    76. Re:120GB is too much. by Walter+Carver · · Score: 1

      I have dropped DVDs on the floor several times but putting HDDs and DVDs in the microwave is not something I do in my routine, I don't know about yours :-P

    77. Re:120GB is too much. by clang_jangle · · Score: 1

      Base ubuntu install takes 2G and it comes with all that OSX ships with.

      Uh, no. Not even close. That's why I have to use the Mac -- Linux is not at all ready for multimedia professionals. No decent sound recording, no decent sound editing, no decent video editing, no decent syncing of audio/video, etc, etc, etc. Call me when Ubuntu comes with something equivalent to Logic or Final Cut. Until then, it's not suitable for MMPros. (And if you post back talking about ardour, ecasound, audacity, etc I swear I'll scream. They do not work at anything like a pro level at all. I know, I tried.) I do wish I could use Linux for all my multimedia needs, but sadly, it will be years until it's ready. Not surprising, considering the Mac has been around since 1984. Linux will hopefully become as mature a platform and set us all free, but not this year. I have Linux machines, and its true that they use waaaay less resources -- but they also do a lot less.

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    78. Re:120GB is too much. by timeOday · · Score: 1

      That is so cool, it even supports striping across up to 6 SSD cards. But where's the price?

    79. Re:120GB is too much. by Jorophose · · Score: 1

      8GB for ubuntu?

      Is Gnome really that bloated? And has ubuntu been gaining serious weight?

      Xubuntu 6.06 tuned to be as nice as it can be with the "typical" apps (no movie editing though) used about 4-5GB. Using Debian and being careful with your packages you can make it fit squarely in 4GB.

    80. Re:120GB is too much. by symbolset · · Score: 1

      for 8GB you can have Ubuntu and a few hundred of your favorite free apps.

      ...

      8GB for ubuntu? Is Gnome really that bloated? And has ubuntu been gaining serious weight?

      Um, not what I wrote? But yeah, Gnome is fluffing up nicely. You can still squeeze it into a 4GB install if, like you said, you're careful. Me, I like to install stuff with reckless abandon and so I wind up chewing up 12GB on my server install for OS & Apps. On the upside, it has LTSP so all my desktops can network boot to a standard desktop in just a few seconds just like thin clients, which is handy when the family brings their kids over and everybody wants to goof off on the Internet but my kids don't want their PCs infested with the junk that normally follows that activity. That and I have the usual tools I like - Open Office, The Gimp, Blender, POVRay, etc.

      Data? That's a different bucket of bytes altogether. Frankly, I don't even know...

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    81. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Compiz

      You mean that spinning cube thingie they stole from OS X? Uh yeah, we Mac users aren't missing much. We see it every day. :)

    82. Re:120GB is too much. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it sounds like you work for your computer instead of it working for you. why would i want to manage a bunch of shit all of the time when i can pop a fat hdd in the computer and never worry about it?

    83. Re:120GB is too much. by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

      What can I say? It's just so much fun watching the sparks fly in there. ;)

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    84. Re:120GB is too much. by Walter+Carver · · Score: 1

      In fact I do both. HDDs and DVDs. Rendundancy!

    85. Re:120GB is too much. by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      If you need more than 16GB of OS and apps, you don't need a laptop really. Or if you do you're a power user with unusual needs - you're not in the "most people" zone where the price/performance sweet spot is. About 4GB is an XP install with Office, for 8GB you can have Ubuntu and a few hundred of your favorite free apps. If your system image is >12GB, you have other issues and you should expect to pay more. 16GB for OS & apps, 16GB for data is plenty for almost anybody.

      If you're one of the growing number of people who use (or want to use) a laptop as their only computer, this idea is a non-starter.

      Constant flipping of cards is not a solution, either. Even ignoring the massive potential for data loss, it's just damn inconvenient (as are external hard disks).

    86. Re:120GB is too much. by Eivind · · Score: 1

      It's easy to fill 16GB by much more mundane means. For example taking photos with my 2-year-old digital camera produces 10MB every time I push the button. If it was a new or expensive one it'd produce more. 100 pictures is a gigabyte. 1600 pictures is 16GB.

      But I need programs and an OS and other stuff too, probably atleast 5GB worth of other stuff, so I could store no more than 1000 pictures. I've got much more than 1000 pictures, hell I've got more than 1000 pictures from the last year.

      16GB ain't that much. If you'd said 160GB, then ok.

  2. I completely agree by moderatorrater · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The small increase in performance isn't worth the several hundred in cost it would add to my laptops. I bought my laptop for $650, and a better HD just isn't worth increasing that to nearly $1000. YMMV.

    1. Re:I completely agree by KillerBob · · Score: 1

      It really depends on what you want from your laptop. If you want tons of storage and a good performance-to-price ratio, then you'll be going for a more traditional drive with moving platters/heads. If you want something like, say, battery life, then you'll be going for an SSD. There's a reason those new Dells which boast 19h of battery life have SSD's instead of traditional storage. No moving parts = much lower energy consumption.

      --
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    2. Re:I completely agree by magarity · · Score: 4, Informative

      There's a reason those new Dells which boast 19h of battery life have SSD's
       
      No, the new Dells that are boasting that have a battery pack option that is the same size as the bottom of the laptop. Think of one of those laptop cooler pads except 15 pounds of battery instead of a couple of fans inside.

    3. Re:I completely agree by Idiomatick · · Score: 5, Insightful

      SHHH! if we cant convince rich idiots to buy these things en masse we dont have to wait as long before they are useful.

    4. Re:I completely agree by frosty_tsm · · Score: 5, Funny

      Think of one of those laptop cooler pads except 15 pounds of battery instead of a couple of fans inside.

      Imagine the explosion you can get out of that!

    5. Re:I completely agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      moron, the 19hrs thing is when you use the embedded linux on the motherboard just for surfing and doing simple doc processing.

      guess you never really read the press release, or you can't understand anything.

      SSD are not THAT power efficient. The best thing it offers nowadays is it's "shock resistance" and the marketing of "less prone to failiure"

    6. Re:I completely agree by diamondsw · · Score: 1

      If you buy a cheap piece of shit laptop, then I wouldn't expect you to fork over for a premium. They don't carry these at Wal-Mart.

      I'm looking forward to SSD's after suffering two head crashes in the last few years (and none in the preceding 20). Silence and possibly improved energy efficiency are just icing on the cake.

      Finally, long sequential reads being the norm? I disagree. Look at any Linux/BSD/Mac OS X system. The OS is made up of a bajillion little files. Applications are made of of lots of files, libraries, resources, etc. SSD's *kill* hard drives on content like that.

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    7. Re:I completely agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SHHH! if we cant convince rich idiots to buy these things en masse we dont have to wait as long before they are useful.

      Like the mac Air? Compare it to an ultralight toshiba laptop, which is the same size & weight, but manages to squeeze in a dvd drive, usb ports and ethernet.

    8. Re:I completely agree by llZENll · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Why the hell are SSDs so slow? I've never understood this, its not like in an HD where you can't add more read heads because there isn't enough physical space to do so, or because they can't move fast enough with the additional weight. In an SSD you should be able to put as many chips in parallel to make your read and write speeds whatever the hell you want, 1TBps, no problem. You would think SSDs should be able to saturate a SATA/Fibre/PCIE bus instantly? What gives?

    9. Re:I completely agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention the burns on your penis!

    10. Re:I completely agree by ILuvRamen · · Score: 3, Funny

      they're busy buying other underperforming, overpriced, glitchy, new, status symbol crap: Apple products. So then the key is to put the SSDs in Apple products of course. Think about it, that would actually work. Rich Apple customers love paying more for anything that sounds fancy.

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    11. Re:I completely agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your an idiot is what gives. Thats not how it works. Id explane it to you but Im going to the gym in 26 minutes.

    12. Re:I completely agree by AllynM · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Many of the modern SSD's *DO* saturate the bus. The Memoright GT and other SLC flash drives easily push 120-130 meg/sec over sata 150. The key is that the 'cheaper' MLC based drives have horrible write speed, especially when writing bunches of small files. Most users think this won't bother them, until they realize outlook does exactly the same thing when accessing its PST.

      The thing I don't get is why so many people think SSD's are slow. Even MLC based first generation samsung PATA SSD's obliterate even the fastest laptop hard disks in all areas except for the aforementioned small writes.

      From my own desktop testing, a single Memoright GT completely owns the pair of raid-0 74 gig raptors it replaced.

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    13. Re:I completely agree by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Informative

      The high end ones have scored metal cases too to produce handgrenade style shrapnel.

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    14. Re:I completely agree by cnettel · · Score: 1

      Well, the stated capacity of the battery slice is only about equal (85 watt hours or so) to the standard 9-cell battery, so it's not that heavy. And, yeah, to get 19 hours you use the SSD, keep the display dimmed, have no optical drive, and use integrated graphics.

    15. Re:I completely agree by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have a GT in my vaio, and it is the best 2K I dropped since god knows when.

      The first generation SSDs were crap. All the new SSDs are pretty much good to go because the issues were mostly with the software and memory utility algorithms, and not with the physical SSD memory architecture.

      The thing I don't get is why so many people think SSD's are slow.

      Mac Air and other vendors that had made SSDs optional unfortunately went with the crappy SSDs, and a lot of people who dropped serious cash for them were severely disappointed. And so there was a backlash.

    16. Re:I completely agree by zaidib5 · · Score: 1

      Turned out it didn't fully support DMA. You could almost certainly just let it live in the B Torrent cloud where you got it all in the first place; it's not like you'll never have broadband again. his is in fact the reason I did a whole lotta googlin' and a whole lotta reading on what others had gone from side to side http://mail2money.net/thermal-coffee-cup/2008/08/dont-panic-with-your-thermal-coffee-cup.html

    17. Re:I completely agree by bjourne · · Score: 1

      Many of the modern SSD's *DO* saturate the bus. The Memoright GT and other SLC flash drives easily push 120-130 meg/sec over sata 150. The key is that the 'cheaper' MLC based drives have horrible write speed, especially when writing bunches of small files. Most users think this won't bother them, until they realize outlook does exactly the same thing when accessing its PST.

      Have you measured that? All modern OS:es come with a write cache in memory which makes writing almost instantaneous. When that write cache is full, or when there is available io bandwidth, it is written to the disk. Which is also a very fast operation because the disk itself is equippped with a cache. The disk then writes the data in its cache on its platters asynchronously from the application that originally requested the write.

      So even if SDD's are missing a disk cache of their own, the OS still has one. That means that from the applications (and the users) point of view, writes are still instantenous. Sure, overflowing the write cache will force the OS to perform actual slow writes, but "writing bunches of small files" will not cause that.

    18. Re:I completely agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why the hell are SSDs so slow? I've never understood this, its not like in an HD where you can't add more read heads because there isn't enough physical space to do so, or because they can't move fast enough with the additional weight. In an SSD you should be able to put as many chips in parallel to make your read and write speeds whatever the hell you want, 1TBps, no problem. You would think SSDs should be able to saturate a SATA/Fibre/PCIE bus instantly? What gives?

      You are right, and they can do that. But... the process for doing so is expensive because the plants and infrastructure is not in place. So.... they offer what is affordable, and affordable SSD's are mediocre compared to what they will be in a couple years.

    19. Re:I completely agree by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      My laptop hard drive died a few weeks ago. I move the machine around a lot (often while it's running) and so it's probably the worst possible usage case for a mechanical disk. With an SSD the worst that's likely to happen is the connector comes loose. Would I pay a premium for it? Probably around a hundred quid, maybe two.

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    20. Re:I completely agree by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Reads are fast. Writes are slow. The problem with reads is that the block size is typically around 128KB (coincidentally, the size of the first Flash SSD I owned, which I paid around thirty quid for in the mid '90s). If you want to read a 4KB file, then you need to read 128KB from the device. Writing is worse, since you have to erase and rewrite the entire 128KB cell. This means reading 128KB, erasing the cell, writing 128KB. Very slow if you're doing a lot of small (e.g. 1KB) writes. Buffering reduces this (but it makes power failures worse) but not for lots of random writes.

      You can make the cells smaller, but it drives the price up. You need a certain amount of circuitry for controlling every cell and it's a fairly significant amount of the total die size with a 128KB cell. If you make them 4KB, like modern hard drives, then you've got a chip where only a small percentage is the actual storage and no one outside the defence industry wants to pay for them.

      If you want good performance from flash in your usespace application, then learn about lio_listio().

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    21. Re:I completely agree by MSZ · · Score: 1

      Unfortuantely, before the SATA bus, they would saturate my credit card.
      $2900 for 128GB? Maybe if they were like twice as expensive as the conventional drives, I'd consider switching, but the price difference right now is unjustifiable for any people slightly less rich than average oil sheikh or Bill Gates.

      --
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    22. Re:I completely agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it's better if the rich spend money wisely to drive down the cost of more important items. Otherwise, you're just making an inconsistent statement by stating SSD is worth said money. In other words, should I go on a hunger strike to wait for the price of food to deflate?

    23. Re:I completely agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) The UN has a 100WHr restriction on battery packs.

      2) These additional batteries easily less than 1lb.

    24. Re:I completely agree by AllynM · · Score: 1

      Yes, I've measured it. Windows does cache writes, but the cache is filled very quickly due to the MLC flash coming to a screeching halt on small writes. I've found the cache to fill in less than a second.

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    25. Re:I completely agree by samwichse · · Score: 1
  3. I think it depends on what type of laptop by petermgreen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    craptops I don't see going SSD for a long time.
    ordinary decent laptops I see offering SSD as an option but I don't see it being popular in the near future.

    Ultraportables on the other hand are already going ssd in many cases. Tiny hard drives tend to have terrible performance and a 2.5 inch 9.5mm high drive is pretty big for an ultraportable (though some ultraportables do use them).

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  4. I disagree by statemachine · · Score: 5, Informative

    Complexity, power, heat, and failure from kinetic shock. These are either reduced or zero with a flash device.

    If you're looking for non-mobile, or a large storage application, then the disk makes sense.

    1. Re:I disagree by Peter+Cooper · · Score: 0

      Power? The current batch of SSDs use more power, not less although I suspect this is a temporary issue.

    2. Re:I disagree by Whiney+Mac+Fanboy · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's not as cut and dried as you think; from the article you link to:

      Update: We apologize for a procedural mistake in testing battery runtime for this article. As the benchmark looped, the total workload processed by the fast Flash SSDs was higher, causing other components, such as the chipset and the CPU, to be more active as well. We followed up with the article

      Check out the graphs on the retest

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    3. Re:I disagree by statemachine · · Score: 1

      Then you should also link to the follow-up article where they admit they goofed, and the results for power consumption weren't so cut-and-dried like you suggest. In fact, they even say there was at least one flash device on the market that beat them all.

      I'll bet that Windows' penchant for hitting the hard disk as often as it does even when "idle" makes the disk use more power than a flash device.

    4. Re:I disagree by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 1

      Why on earth would you link to that article, it was widely debunked at the time because the test procedure was (to use a technical term) a complete load of horse shit.

      The follow up article (though unfortunately filled with attempts to save face by proving their original conclusion correct even though their methodology was laughable) shows fairly clearly that SSDs can deliver great performance for the power they use. (Of course there are some shitty ones two, but that's what you expect in a newish product range).

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      Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
    5. Re:I disagree by cryptoluddite · · Score: 1

      They say that flash drives provide significant performance advantages... and they measure how long a benchmark runs until the batter runs out?! If the drive is faster, the benchmark does more work in a given time. It uses more % of the processor rather than waiting for the drive, which uses more power.

      Some of these drives take less power under load than idle hdd's. I may not be a rocket scientist, but how do they think something that draws less power has a shorter battery runtime other than the computer is doing more work? /boggle

      If they had seen fit to publish how many runs or iterations the benchmarks performed before the battery ran down, you'd clearly see that flash drives are better in pretty much every way except space and cost -- certainly in power and speed.

    6. Re:I disagree by Anpheus · · Score: 0, Troll

      Actually, what you said supported him exactly. He said he suspected it was a temporary issue. Turns out, on the re-test involving a drive that didn't exist on the initial test, it was shown to be a temporary issue. A flash drive beat every other drive in every metric except capacity.

      So... he was right. You were right. Everyone can go to sleep happy.

    7. Re:I disagree by Blackhalo · · Score: 1

      Wait, they did the test EXTERNAL to the laptop? That would seem to not take in to account the reduced heat of the SSDs resulting in less fan use resulting in less overall power drain. Who uses their laptop with an external drive?

      --
      "There is nothing to do it. But to do it." -Floyd Pepper
    8. Re:I disagree by Peter+Cooper · · Score: 1

      You missed:

      We followed up with the article Flash SSD Update: More Results, More Answers, which proves our conclusion correct, despite the procedural mistake. Most of the Flash SSDs are not there yet.

      Only one in the re-test (the newest, most cutting edge one) come out ahead in terms of power - and I wouldn't consider that one of the "current batch."

    9. Re:I disagree by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 2, Interesting

      which proves our conclusion correct

      Saying it doesn't make it true.

      Only one in the re-test (the newest, most cutting edge one) come out ahead in terms of power

      I'm looking at those graphs and trying to work out exactly what definition of "one" you are using....

      --
      Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
    10. Re:I disagree by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 1

      the total workload processed by the fast Flash SSDs was higher

      If the thing is spitting out data 3 to 4 times as fast and responding to requests 40 to 100 times as fast, then yes, the things around that thing will have to work a little harder.

      But for a shorter period of time.

    11. Re:I disagree by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      My little Asus EEE-PC is too small for its own good. I can balance it on a knee, or the arm of a chair or couch. Because of this, it's taken a faceplant onto the floor a dozen times or more already. The worst thing that's happened is the plastic housing for the screen popped open a little. I gave it a squeeze and it clicked back together.

      For that durability alone, the choice of a SSD was fantastic. Well worth the cost of replacing the drive that I could have damaged in any one of those falls.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    12. Re:I disagree by Calyth · · Score: 1

      For me, the failure from kinetic shock has become a bigger thing since I had 2 iPods failed.

      I didn't drop them, but I kept them in my jacket, in a protective holster, but I wasn't as careful with the jacket as with the iPod.

      Consumers rarely crank databases or Final Cut Pro on a laptop, and if they think the laptop could last for 3 years or so, the reliability of the SSD would become a factor.

      Those of us who need lots of sequential reads or absolute battery life would do a lot more research, and generally not "consumers" as we might think.

  5. Random write performance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While they vastly increase random read performance. Random write performance is currently no where near as good as a HDD.

    1. Re:Random write performance by hatchet · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not true. SSDs are already faster in every aspect than magnetic drives. And the new intel ssd drive will totally offset this in favor of ssds. Even the price is no longer a big issue, 64GB SSD drives can be gotten for $270.
      120mb/s sustained and sequential read and write. WD Velociraptor (the new 10k rpm drive) has that value much lower at 85mb/s sustained and 68mb/s sequential.
      http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=149&Itemid=1&limit=1&limitstart=4

    2. Re:Random write performance by AllynM · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Intel drive uses MLC and while its write speed might appear competitive, the relatively large block erase that happens with MLC will make this drive impractical for typical "system drive" usage. Small writes will bring this drive to its knees.

      --
      this sig was brought to you by the letter /.
    3. Re:Random write performance by hatchet · · Score: 1

      So people don't misunderstand you, "bring this drive to its knees" not in matter of performance, but rather durability.
      http://www.solid-state.com/display_article/337689/5/none/none/TCHNE/Intel's-take-on-the-HDD-vs.-SSD-debate
      He noted, though, that "there are tradeoffs when you design with MLC," one of which is reliability. An SLC device has an order-of-magnitude greater cycling capability. Winslow noted that the standard number of cycles an SLC NAND flash device can attain is 100,000 cycles (a program and erase is one cycle), whereas an MLC device only achieves ~5000-10,000 cycles. "So when you put an MLC device into a computing solution, and if you kept everything constant, the SLC SSD gives you 10Ã-- greater write cycling before the device wears out," he said.
      Pretty much meaning that with ordinary use, everything is ok... but if certain malware was in play that would fill up most of the disk-space (to screw NAND flash's auto re-map wear leveling) and tried to rewrite same cell 5k+ times it could lead to drive malfunctions.

    4. Re:Random write performance by Siffy · · Score: 1

      Not true. SSDs are already faster in every aspect than magnetic drives.

      Easiest way for me to say this: Wrong. Here's the current king of the hill when it comes to magnetic storage http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ultrastar-cheetah-sas,2004-3.html . No SSD can come close to touching that drive in performance or price/GB... yet.

      Even the price is no longer a big issue, 64GB SSD drives can be gotten for $270.

      Wrong. 64GB, $250, $210 after rebate. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227344 . And that's still a freaking insanely high price/GB. Here's let's do the math.
      Cheetah 15k.6 450GB ~$900 so $2/GB
      VelociRaptor 300GB ~$300 $1/GB
      Most 500GB drives $65 $.13/GB
      Any 640GB drive $85 $.13/GB
      Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 750GB $99 $.13/GB (see the trend?)
      Seagate Barracuda ES.2 1TB (Near-line drive, the most expensive 1TB available) $235 $.24/GB
      OCZ Core Series SSD 64GB $210 $3.28/GB
      One of the most inexpensive/GB SSDs is over 13x more expensive than a magnetic drive that's considered enterprise entry level (The ES.2) and over 25x more expensive than drives that are considered typical mainstream.

      120mb/s sustained and sequential read and write. WD Velociraptor (the new 10k rpm drive) has that value much lower at 85mb/s sustained and 68mb/s sequential.

      Wrong. The Velociraptor was not included in that benchmark. In fact, pre-release engineering samples didn't hit the benchmark sites for a month and a half after that article was published. Here's one that does include it. http://hothardware.com/News/OCZ_Core_Series_SSD_Vs_VelociRaptor_Sneak_Peek/ Also, "X sustained and Y sequential" doesn't even make sense. I think you meant read and write but even got those numbers wrong.

      http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=149&Itemid=1&limit=1&limitstart=4

      Those benchmarks are garbage. For starters they're 6 months old and a lot has changed since then. They're comparing a "brand new" latest generation SSD versus a "performance hard drive" 74GB Raptor that is now 2 generations old.

      Most of the benchmark sites just piss me off when they're doing SSD reviews. They never put them head to head with the 2 market segments for which the drives are being produced and pushed. The mfgs want the high end drives in enterprise class servers that see extreme I/O levels, and the "mainstream" drives are for laptops due to power usage and durability. A lot of the enterprise class servers are already switching to 2.5" drives anyway for lower power draw, lower access times, and higher density per unit. Very few people are going to replace their 3.5" drive in their desktop with a silly expensive piece of flash ram. I'm leaning heavily toward getting one of those 64GB OCZ drives for my laptop, and it's as much for heat as anything else. The only reasons I'd look to put one in a PC is if I'm trying to accomplish making it silent or green, but none of the reviewers ever seem to realize that.

  6. Re:I think it depends on "Pioneers" by BoRegardless · · Score: 1

    People who want to know and those who have to know to make their work better will take the arrows and learn early and figure out how best to use them ... or not.

    That is just the way it always is.

    I will get one/them, hammer them and know what I can do early on.

  7. Losing out on performance by subStance · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The comment about sequential reads causing the SSD to lose on performance compared with magnetic drives caught my attention. Isn't this highly dependent on the filesystem you use and its strategy for block allocation ?

    Wouldn't it be possible to design the block allocation algorithm to favour SSDs the same way previous generations of filesystems tried to put the next block on the disk to be the one under the head at the current moment (or whatever it was they did) ?

    --
    Servlet v2.4 container in a single 161KB jar file ? Try Winstone
    1. Re:Losing out on performance by petermgreen · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Afaict with SSDs the performance is pretty much constant no matter what the read order. With HDDs sequential reads are much faster than random reads.

      So SSDs lose in continuous throughput tests.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    2. Re:Losing out on performance by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      Using another filesystem with more 'fragmentation' wont boost SSD performance.
      I cant think of any way you can make a FS for SSDs faster than the ones optimised for hard drives.

      NTFS would get a massive speed boost though.
      But thats just because it sucks. ;)

    3. Re:Losing out on performance by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1, Informative

      Isn't this highly dependent on the filesystem you use and its strategy for block allocation ?

      Yes, but...

      Wouldn't it be possible to design the block allocation algorithm to favour SSDs...

      Well, fragmentation isn't the answer. That seems to be what you're suggesting...

      See, fragmentation introduces problems of its own -- for example, simple overhead of block allocation. If you've got a bunch of blocks that are sequential -- say, block 123, 124, 125, 126, and 127 -- you can say that a file is in an extent, from block 123-127. If, however, your file is stored in blocks 123, 259, 312, 567, and 964, you're going to have to store all of those addresses -- which means you're spending 250% more disk space simply storing addresses.

      Also, Flash is written to (and read from) in rather huge blocks -- so you want a file to at least be contiguous on that level.

      No, I would say that the simple solution to Flash not appearing to perform as well (for sequential operations) is to defragment just as aggressively, and to increase readahead by a lot. Flash would work great for contiguous sequential reads, assuming that the filesystem (or block layer) are anticipating that you'll keep reading from the same file.

      But first, you need the flash disk itself to support simultaneous reads, and probably some OS support as well.

      And for what it's worth, Linux has filesystems which are optimized for raw Flash -- which handle things like wear-leveling on their own. CompactFlash, and the newer standards, provide an IDE-like interface, which does the wear-leveling in hardware -- in other words, they pretend to be a hard disk, mostly for the benefit of Windows.

      So I predict two things: First, that Linux will solve this problem the "right way", given sufficiently low-level access. And second, that there will be a lot of hardware, firmware, and BIOS hacks to get around the fact that Windows isn't going to be changing its filesystem anytime soon.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    4. Re:Losing out on performance by lubricated · · Score: 1

      right now file systems are made in such a way as to maximize reads that are sequential. It is possible that without these, now unneeded, optimizations ssd could run faster.

      --
      It has been statistically shown that helmets increase the risk of head injury.
    5. Re:Losing out on performance by subStance · · Score: 1

      Wow - it seems when I said " ... to favour SSDs the same way previous generations of filesystems tried ...", some people took that to mean *exactly* the same way the magnetic drives do. Please tell me you don't think I'm that stupid. My meaning was that it should be possible to use foreknowledge of the underlying hardware's mechanics/strengths/weaknesses to make decisions about block allocation that favour that hardware. To put it simply, "playing to the strengths" of the hardware.

      --
      Servlet v2.4 container in a single 161KB jar file ? Try Winstone
    6. Re:Losing out on performance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, current SSDs try to randomize the physical block locations of writes for wear-leveling purposes in their firmware, so the filesystem's block allocation algorithms have no impact on the actual layout of the cells, since the firmware will just remap it all.

    7. Re:Losing out on performance by AllynM · · Score: 1
      --
      this sig was brought to you by the letter /.
    8. Re:Losing out on performance by cubic6 · · Score: 1

      right now file systems are made in such a way as to maximize reads that are sequential. It is possible that without these, now unneeded, optimizations ssd could run faster.

      No, they wouldn't, because removing a competitor's optimizations does not make you faster unless they were slowing you down to begin with. Modern SSDs have the same random and sequential read speeds, they aren't actually slower at sequential reads than random reads. In other words, it's not that the sequential ordering used by modern filesystems slows them down, it just doesn't help them at all. Now, if you could come up with a data structure that both provides some performance benefits to SSDs that traditional drives wouldn't get, and still utilizes wear-leveling for writes (which is something that would mess with most block allocation schemes), then the situation might be different, and may justify a filesystem "optimized" for SSD performance.

      --
      Karma: Contrapositive
    9. Re:Losing out on performance by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      I think there's an argument for matching filesystem cluster sizes to flash block erase sizes since flash write is higher if you write an erase block at a time. But doing that is a relatively minor tweak to the IDE/SATA drive identify data (to say "I recommend this cluster size") and formatter (to pick that size by default).

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    10. Re:Losing out on performance by killmofasta · · Score: 1

      Block allocation? Like track devices in AmigaDOS? What a GREAT FRIGGIN IDEA! Brilliant actually. Ill just hack up the driver...er...better start from sratch on that one. The trick u suggest is to delay writes until a full block can be written, or an arbitrary part. NetWare borrowed it from VMS, XP borrowed it from NT, borrowed it from NetWare. Still dont know where AmigaDOS got it.

      I have a old Dell 8200. I have two usb slots, and I have a 4GB USB with a BartPE XP for USB build on it, and a 16GB USB with about 6 GBs of Applications. I let it run that way for about a month, and then took the damn drive out. The internet cache is in a ram disk, so not a lot of small files.

      It runs now for somewhere between 4 hours and 6 hours at reduced power. good enough for the trip to work, and the trip home.

    11. Re:Losing out on performance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It surely is dependent on the file system, but the bottom line is that SSDs aren't all they were hyped to be. If they were, it wouldn't be dependend on the file system :)

      For example, adding more RAM to your system of course benefits any file system. No one stops to ask "well, should I buy an extra 2GB since I have file system X". SSDs led us to believe they were so fast that nothing else matters. But, they aren't. NTFS, ext3, ReiserFS, shouldn't need redesigning just because of SSDs.

  8. SSD makes sense.... by dindi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, I use Linux/Windows as my servers, and use a Mac mini/G5 as my development environment, and even though I do now own an SSD laptop I know it makes sense.

    Uses less power and can be dropped. My laptop is a macbook (not pro) and I know it is overkill with what I do with it, so a macbook AIR would be just the right thing to do if it had the correct pricing with SSD. But it doesn't, at least not for me.

    No optical drive, limited HDD? I do not really care. For my visits to clients (of web projects) could be done on a 5 year old crap (if it wasn't windows and had a battery live of 10 minutes) so for me an AIR would be just fine.

    Ohh... does it makes sense on WINTEL? Do not know how Vista runs on an SSD and if you have any space on a 64GIG drive after installing VISTA. Not flaming, I really do not know.

    I know, that if I had to travel more I would get an AIR with SSD, and it would perfectly satisfy my multimedia needs (just grab those 4-5 movies to HDD for the flight and you are set).

    Just my 2c, but I am a (mostly web) developer, so all you sales people and myltimedia freaks might have a different viewpoint about the whole fuss.......

    1. Re:SSD makes sense.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      to answer your question, i have a Dell XPS m1330 with a 64GB SSD drive in it running Vista Home Premium.

      total install size is approx 15GB including Office, Visual Studio, Visio and some other apps.

      plenty of drive space left over.

      and in a side by side unscientific test with the exact same model laptop with the only difference being the SSD drive and LED screen in mine versus a standard offered HDD and regular screen, using both laptops till they shut down at 3% battery life per vista measuring, mine lasted approximately 15 minutes longer.

      On the other hand, mine has survived a lot of travel and the other has already had a hard drive failure......

      all anecdotal evidence but just answering based upon my experience.

      oh, and i got mine with the SSD because of a coupon that basically gave it to me for less money than the regular priced HDD.

      God love Dell and EPP coupons and special pricing!

    2. Re:SSD makes sense.... by anss123 · · Score: 1

      Ohh... does it makes sense on WINTEL? Do not know how Vista runs on an SSD and if you have any space on a 64GIG drive after installing VISTA. Not flaming, I really do not know.

      For what it's worth I got Vista installed on a 40 gig laptop.

      As for the ideal laptop, why not an eee PC? Screen to small? The Mac Air seems way too big for there to be any point IMO, but if you need a big screen and can't use projectors then a big screen light weight laptop might be something.

  9. battery life? by bigdavex · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think people are willing to pay a premium for extended battery life. If I can use my device more, it has more utility.

    --
    -Dave
    1. Re:battery life? by trum4n · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I just get a bigger battery. Its cheaper than a SSD, and i don't drop laptops. If i drop my laptop, i deserve to be without.

    2. Re:battery life? by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Bah. I can still remember the first time I dropped my laptop. It was in an airport security line.

      I had one of those foam laptop protector thingies with the Velcro flap (on the short side. this is important), but it didn't have a strap, so I put it in my carry-on, a messenger bag with the opening on the long side. (so you can see the bag opening mismatch error already developing.)

      For some reason, the group I was traveling with (a bunch of people I had no business believing had had more travel experience than myself...) convinced me to use my small suitcase as an additional carry-on so we wouldn't have to wait for bag claim.

      The final piece was that it was November of 2001. Right after the rules requiring you to take the laptop out and turn it on rather than just putting it through the Xray without too much stuff in the same bag, but a number of months before someone had the bright idea of putting out tables for people to do that.

      Which is why moving forward while trying to remove a laptop from nested bags with opening axis mismatch and a suitcase at the same time is not a good idea if you're also a bit of a butterfingers. At least I have an exceedingly boring story to tell about confluences of ineptness, not all of which was my own.

      Anyway, the point is: the HDD was fine after that. Don't talk to me about the dvd/cd+R combo drive or the keyboard, though.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    3. Re:battery life? by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      2.5 inch hard disks seem to be surprisingly tough. I've dropped a bare drive a couple of metres onto a hard floor and it was ok. And I've dropped lots of laptops. All of them were ok.

      None of the drives were running though, from what I've read it's not hard to kill them if drop them while they're spinning.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    4. Re:battery life? by pthisis · · Score: 1

      Seriously, I hate how these articles concentrate almost exclusively on speed. Speed is nice, but for a rather large portion of the computer-using population (including me, a full-time professional programmer) speed ceased to be the driving force in purchasing decisions nearly 10 years ago.

      You mention power savings, which for some is a huge deal. I put a huge premium on silent computers for my bedroom (the one in there right now has no fans, the HD is the only noisy component). A lot of laptops get uncomfortably hot. Robustness against falls is important, too.

      If I could get desktop HDs that were only 30% slower than current spinning platters at twice the cost, but were totally silent, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

      --
      rage, rage against the dying of the light
    5. Re:battery life? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why they come with a cord.

  10. Shh, don't tell that to Asus... by flyingfsck · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I'm afraid they'll want to take my Eee PC back if they hear that.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    1. Re:Shh, don't tell that to Asus... by pimpimpim · · Score: 1

      yeah, here I am, reading on my ssd-based cheap asus that its internals won't make sense for the next two years. Doesn't anyone think of the netbooks? And for anyone claiming a netbook isn't a laptop: I am using my EEE as my main machine, for the same things people use laptops for. Writing e-mails, making presentations, writing documents, watching movies. -

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
  11. More for less is an easy sale... by Manip · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It will be easy to sell the concept of SSD to pretty much anyone, particularly for a laptop. Here is the short list:
    - Faster Reads
    - Potentially faster to wake up from sleep
    - More durable
    - Less chance of sudden and complete data loss (e.g. A smaller portion of the drive would fail instead of a complete drive failure as with a magnetic disk)
    - Consumes less power
    - Quieter
    - Cooler (also a power saving feature due to less fan running time)

    SSD drives are very cool pieces of technology and I for one can't wait to be able to buy a superthin laptop with no magnetic disk.

    1. Re:More for less is an easy sale... by CyrusOmega · · Score: 1

      The noise factor alone *could* sell SSD far better than most think. I know at my place of work, drive space isn't a big deal but having 15 different hard-drives rattling on during a meeting can get quite annoying, especially if a meeting runs till noon when everyone's laptop starts doing the "mandatory" virus scan.

    2. Re:More for less is an easy sale... by furball · · Score: 1, Interesting

      What about weight? Do SSD drives weigh less than the normal types today? Or is it about the same?

    3. Re:More for less is an easy sale... by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I thought many of those hyped benefits haven't panned out, or are taken out of proportion. Power consumption even on a good drive isn't significantly lot lower, the real-world speed generally isn't there yet, and the noise? I think first you'll need to deal with CPU power consumption. Notebook hard drives consume 1-2 watts of power, standard notebook CPUs go for 30W. Then there's the fan that's needed to cool the CPU. I personally don't need silent, and I am not really bothered by the noise a good computer emits, the noise level is so low that the money is much better spent on sound treatments for the house or quieter appliances.

    4. Re:More for less is an easy sale... by zoogies · · Score: 1

      Okay. I don't know much about SSDs, but one thing I've heard tossed around in the past was limited writes. Does this present a concern? Are there certain usages that may involve abnormal amount of write cycles such that you'd have to worry about the limited writes?

    5. Re:More for less is an easy sale... by starwed · · Score: 1

      I'm typing this on an ASUS eeePC 901. It gets quite a bit better battery life than the comparable MSI Wind, mostly because it uses an SSD drive.

    6. Re:More for less is an easy sale... by Blackhalo · · Score: 1

      "I thought many of those hyped benefits haven't panned out," on Vista...

      --
      "There is nothing to do it. But to do it." -Floyd Pepper
    7. Re:More for less is an easy sale... by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm typing this on an ASUS eeePC 901. It gets quite a bit better battery life than the comparable MSI Wind, mostly because it uses an SSD drive.

      How is that possibly a good comparison? There are many possible variables. The screens are different, the batteries are different, and who knows how many other differences there may be on the board, in the power regulators and what not, even if it might use the same CPU. You need to try both kinds of drives in the same system.

    8. Re:More for less is an easy sale... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well i for one can say that many times i've thought my dell xps wasn't running because of no HDD noise.....

    9. Re:More for less is an easy sale... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SSDs do NOT consume less power. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ssd-hdd-battery,1955.html

    10. Re:More for less is an easy sale... by AllynM · · Score: 1

      They weigh less. The weight consists of a single circuit board and the flash / controller chips soldered to it. Subtract the motor, magnets, spindle, bearings, and disks themselves.

      --
      this sig was brought to you by the letter /.
    11. Re:More for less is an easy sale... by pthisis · · Score: 1

      I thought many of those hyped benefits haven't panned out, or are taken out of proportion. Power consumption even on a good drive isn't significantly lot lower, the real-world speed generally isn't there yet, and the noise? I think first you'll need to deal with CPU power consumption. Notebook hard drives consume 1-2 watts of power, standard notebook CPUs go for 30W. Then there's the fan that's needed to cool the CPU. I personally don't need silent, and I am not really bothered by the noise a good computer emits, the noise level is so low that the money is much better spent on sound treatments for the house or quieter appliances.

      For me, on the other hand, noise is huge for the machines in my bedroom and living room. It's quite easy to get fanless CPU/power supply/case/video card setups if you're not aiming for the current cutting edge graphics card (just enough for your PVR and so forth). Aside from the HD, my bedroom machine has been silent (and fanless) for years.

      --
      rage, rage against the dying of the light
    12. Re:More for less is an easy sale... by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      Yes.

      <wild_speculation>
      However, there are some folks who use their laptops in environments that *KILL* HDDs with moving parts. For these people, they'd go through a regular harddrive long before they wore out an SSD.

      Also, it's possible that some folks (think olde grannys what shut the PC off when they're done but play solitaire three times a day) would have an SSD that outlasted any mechanical drive.

      </wild_speculation>

    13. Re:More for less is an easy sale... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that this short-list is misleading, in fact it seems just like the marketing BS from the SSD folks (I am not blaming the writer, but be aware of facts vs hereasay):

        - faster reads: only for non-sequential reads. Disks have read speeds of 60+MB/s. That's good enough for desktop multimedia.
      - Potentially faster to wake up from sleep: depends on how you write things out before you go to sleep. Again, many journaling file systems write things out sequentially and read it back sequentially. No need for SSD there.
      - More durable: yes, true, but I'd prefer the word "rugged" to durable. No one is sure how long an SSD drive lasts. While it lasts, it's more rugged than a disk drive. Hence I want it for my MP3 player, but not sure if I care about my PC.
      - Consumes less power: True, but how much "less" matters? A laptop drive consumes 2Ws, an SSD consumes 0.9W (both when active). At this point, disks/SSDs are not your power problem, probably the CPU is.
      - Quieter: Amen

  12. Ah...No. by actionbastard · · Score: 1, Insightful

    "I think you need to get to 128GB for around $200"

    The price needs to drop below equivalent rotational-based technology -currently $42.00 for 160GB- in order for it to become 'cost effective' to change.

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    1. Re:Ah...No. by walshy007 · · Score: 1

      in desktops perhaps, but laptop HD's are typically more expensive, about $68-75 for 160gb

    2. Re:Ah...No. by ottffssent · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sure. If speed, durability, power, and acoustics are valueless to you.

      For the rest of us, SSDs are worth a premium. The amount of that premium depends on the user and workload.

      However, given the success of WD's Raptor line of drives, I would suggest that there's certainly a segment of the population who needs or thinks it needs faster rather than larger disk. And further that this segment is sufficiently large to support a business.

      It's not just database users who are buying fast SSDs (which can hit 200MB/sec read and >100MB/sec write these days), and prices are plunging as a result.

    3. Re:Ah...No. by actionbastard · · Score: 1

      Dude! You're shopping at the wrong place!

      --
      Sig this!
    4. Re:Ah...No. by actionbastard · · Score: 1

      "For the rest of us, SSDs are worth a premium."

      For the 'average Joe', price is the motivating factor. Cognoscenti will always demand more than the mainstream, but will always be the smallest percentage of consumers.

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    5. Re:Ah...No. by Trogre · · Score: 1

      Sure, if reliability is valueless to you.

      How many write cycles are your SSDs good for?

      I think that SSDs will eventually take over, but until this major engineering hurdle is cleared, it's not a serious runner.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    6. Re:Ah...No. by eggnoglatte · · Score: 4, Informative

      How many write cycles are your SSDs good for?

      With wear leveling? More than a hard drive. Time to put that myth to rest. And no, I am not trolling.

    7. Re:Ah...No. by izomiac · · Score: 1

      A quick bit of Googling suggests that modern SSDs are limited to about 1 - 5 million write cycles. Assuming a 32 GB drive with a write speed of 100 MB/sec it would take at least 10 years of continuous writing to hit that limit.

      32 GB / 100 MB / sec = 320 sec = 5.33 min
      5.33 min / cycle * 1,000,000 cycles = 10.14 years

      Also, I've heard that when flash drives fail they simply become read-only. Anyone know if that's true?

    8. Re:Ah...No. by m50d · · Score: 1

      It always seems like everyone I know knows limited flash writes aren't a problem any more. Except for those who've actually tried to run a system off a flash drive.

      --
      I am trolling
    9. Re:Ah...No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does wear-levelling work if the drive is mostly full?

    10. Re:Ah...No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, I've heard that when flash drives fail they simply become read-only. Anyone know if that's true?

      No. Worn out cells lose the data.

    11. Re:Ah...No. by bbn · · Score: 1

      How could it lose data? Flash has unlimited read cycles. It is the erase cycle that makes the cell fail.

      So yes, it is true that flash devices do not lose data from write wear. Not that you will be able to trigger that condition with the new devices.

    12. Re:Ah...No. by mollymoo · · Score: 1

      The price needs to drop below equivalent rotational-based technology -currently $42.00 for 160GB- in order for it to become 'cost effective' to change.

      You're making the same mistake the Ask Slashdot questioner made yesterday - you think "cost effective" means "cheapest to buy". If you want "cost effective" you have to consider benefits as well as cost. As an example, in a high-vibration environment HDDs aren't cost effective because they break.

      --
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    13. Re:Ah...No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It can be anywhere from 10k to 1million per cell (usually see 100k). Internally many (not all) wear level. What this means is the *INTERNAL* driver *may* move things around so everything is at an even state. There is usually also a 'bank' of can be used for broken cells (usually a few meg).

      If that is done it becomes a rather simple math problem of 'how many writes do you do?' and 'how often'.

      Even if you just use the free space (which some drivers do). When you have 1-5 meg and write 100k a second it is on the order of YEARS (5-10). Remember that is continuous all the time. These newer ones have GIGS free. Think about this how often do most people write full out and fill the drives on a regular basis? How often have you walked into a family/friends computer and seen 90 gig free on a 100 gig drive? Also remember most people turn their computer off, for days at a time sometimes...

      Where you will see corruption is bad design with the bus and power. Writes happening at power off, people pulling them out too soon, badly written drivers, etc... These are the same issues with current drives.

      You are already seeing 32gig at ~100 dollar levels. They were ~600 last year. The only thing holding it back is cost. There is also quite a bit of twiddling they can do to make it run faster on reads and writes. Many are fairly simplistic right now. They could even add a sram cache to help with writes. You then run into the write cliff (such as when you write 100 gig out all at once) but if you make it sufficiently big most people would not notice on smaller burst writes.

    14. Re:Ah...No. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Yes. The controller will find some data that hasn't been modified for a long time, and assume that it's not going to be modified for a long time. It will then swap this with a cell that has been written frequently. Next time you update the address you think is the frequently-used physical cell, you are really updating the cell that you've left some of your porn collection (or your boot sector or whatever) on undisturbed for the last year.

      --
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  13. More like... by sthomas · · Score: 0

    it'll be two more years before people demand SSD in laptops so much that sales of traditional storage laptops falls off enough to motivate laptop manufacturers to a) switch fully enough to SSD models to gain economies of scale in production and b) to stop charging premiums for those models because they have to be competitive in the market.

  14. Rubbish by Daniel+Phillips · · Score: 2

    I can verify that Openoffice starts much faster on my little eee PC than on my Desktop machine with 75 MB/S 7200 RPM WD7500AACS. Or any other desktop I have used for that matter.

    It is not just Openoffice of course, but Openoffice being a big pig of an application makes a nice example.

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    1. Re:Rubbish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't know about openoffice, but my EEE (900 MHz, 16G SSD) seems significantly slower than an old 600 MHz Toshiba Portege with a fairly modern 40G Toshiba HD.

  15. Have to inform Gartner Inc by dbIII · · Score: 3, Interesting

    SSD HAS made sense in laptops for two years already. Things like the eeepc have brought it to the attention of the mainstream, but there were other things before it (expensive Toshiba machines etc). When you think about it the majority of tasks a laptop is used for involved changing mere Megabytes of information - it's usually a combination of a typewriter and an address book.

  16. The long term answer ... by spotvt01 · · Score: 1

    The greatest benefit of the SSDs aren't in what they do today, it's their future potential. For a long time HDD access has been one of the biggest bottlenecks. The best thing about SSD is that it _opens the door_ to persistent storage that is not limited by it's mechanical mechanisms. There will be a lot improvements that can be built on this path whereas the mechanical HDD has almost run it's course.

  17. Since When by DougF · · Score: 1, Interesting

    has "sense" ever trumped fashion? SSDs are fashionable and workable enough that the "lead the fleet" types will purchase, and hopefully buy enough that businesses will start producing enough to drop the prices for the rest of us.

    --
    Impetuous! Homeric!
  18. I've been using solid state for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damn_Small_Linux

    It all depends on what you want to do with your laptop. My ancient 233 MHz Thinkpad has been running damnsmalllinux for years now. DSL fits on 50 MB of flash card. If I need to do something heavy duty, I SSH to my desktop. The two biggest battery eaters on the laptop were the hard drive and the display. Getting rid of the mechanical hard drive saved a lot of power.

    OTOH, my daughter does heavy duty graphics on her laptop. For her, one file can be bigger than 50 MB. ie. YMMV

  19. $200? by davidpfarrell · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Maybe its just me, but I fully expect 128GB SSD to go for much less than $200 by the end of 2010.

    How much HDD space will you be able to buy by that time for $200? I'd say easily 10-15x capacity.

    I feel like TFA is trying to set you up to accept higher prices on the hardware for a longer period of time.

    SSD is merging onto the superhighway that is Moore's Law for HDD and I can't see settling for lower capacity and higher prices for more than another year or so.

    --
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    1. Re:$200? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I think you're overly optimistic. The current plants can only produce so much. If at a particular price they can sell their entire inventory, then there's no reason to cut prices below that, even if they could do so and still earn a decent profit.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    2. Re:$200? by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 1

      Eh, by 2010, $200 might be worth about as much as $20 are today.

      --

      "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

    3. Re:$200? by Sibko · · Score: 1

      And how many people use more than 150GB's on their hard drive? I've got 500GB's on my gaming machine and I'm not even using a quarter of it. If I can buy a 150GB SSD for the same price as a 500GB HDD but with greatly improved performance - I'll do it in a heartbeat. It's not like I can't go out and buy an additional HDD if I need it.

    4. Re:$200? by davidpfarrell · · Score: 1

      I expect the free market to keep that scenario to a minimum.

      --
      Cube On! (http://stores.ebay.com/PuzzleProz)
    5. Re:$200? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Over time you are no doubt correct. But it takes time and money to build new plants. Two to three years is probably optimistic.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  20. Erm... 2010? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    2010 is in less than a year and a half. Two years? Learn to count.

    1. Re:Erm... 2010? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do us a favor and try to rub a couple brain cells together before posting. What will the date be exactly two years from now? That's right.

  21. Advertising by cybereal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Also, the industry needs to effectively communicate why consumers or enterprise users should pay more for less storage," says Joseph Unsworth, an analyst at Gartner Inc.

    MAGIC

    Seriously, solid state electronics, even after years and years of being around them as an early 80's baby, still just seems like magic to me. I can't wait to get rid of every little motor whine in my computing world, even if it's another 10 years, that will be a happy day to have a powerful computer without any moving parts.

    --
    I read the script, and I think it would help my character's motivation if he was on fire. -Bender
    1. Re:Advertising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quiet computing. Yup, I'm sold. We don't need motors and fans in our computers. But, there are the hard drive manufacturers and the slowly dying makers of PCs largely based on a very outdated processor that requires a fan, and Gartner is paid to support findings for this legacy industry.

    2. Re:Advertising by rthille · · Score: 3, Funny

      Go on ebay and buy yourself an apple II

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    3. Re:Advertising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess there are a lot of noise snobs in the computing world. I, for one, don't give a shit about noise. Give me more performance, more storage and more cooling, noise be damned. I wish I had actual data for the noise put out by my machine (which is sitting right next to me). To give you an idea, I'd compare it to a muffled hair dryer. But it has nine hard drives, near as many fans, and an air-cooled overclocked quad-core processor in it. Best computer I've ever had. Couldn't be happier with it.

      With some good speakers and the volume turned up, it's less noticeable. With headphones on, it's not noticeable at all. Brought it to Quakecon expecting other people to complain about it, but you couldn't even hear it over the ambient noise in the BYOC.

      Only place I'd consider using SSD would be my laptop, but even then I'd want to carry around a fat external with a spinning disk inside. Well that's not exactly true. With fast internet connections I could leave my fat spinning disks at home and access them over the network. Point is, spinning disks aren't going anywhere anytime soon

    4. Re:Advertising by vux984 · · Score: 1

      as an early 80's baby, still just seems like magic to me.

      You were born too late. The computers you could get from 80-85 machines were both instant on and silent. From the Apple's to the TRS-80s to the Commodore's.

      Granted the disk drives / tape drives of the time were noisy clunkers, but still, those were external peripherals... the computer itself was silent.

    5. Re:Advertising by Agripa · · Score: 1

      I miss the quiet "shook-shook-shook" of 8" and 5 1/4" floppy disk drives.

    6. Re:Advertising by Siffy · · Score: 1

      Then this, sir, is the processor for you and I both. http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20080325comp.htm Each of the 50watt L54x0 cpus comes in 2 retail flavors, here's what the model numbers look like:
      BX80574L5420A
      BX80574L5420P
      The only difference is the size of the included heat sink based on the intended case size, A for 1U and P for 2U and bigger. Due to the extra room for a larger heatsink these 45nm, 12MB cache, 2.33-2.5Ghz Quad Core monsters can be passively cooled! The shit part is having to shell out $600 for a compatible motherboard. IMO, $365-425 is pretty reasonable for the CPU. I don't think we're going to have to wait 10 years for it. The mfg's are starting to realize tons of heat and energy usage just for a few more fps or opening Word .1 seconds quicker is not what the market wants or needs anymore.

  22. Re:You might like this better. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    oh my, it looks like twitter might actually be bringing one of his 14 accounts out of karma hell. that's impressive.

    and scary.

  23. Not performance... by DogDude · · Score: 1

    It's not worth it for performance. It IS worth it for reliability, though. I'd really like to not to have to worry about my hard drive crashing every year, or every time it bumps something (especially in a laptop). No moving parts is a pretty big deal.

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
  24. Geeks Should Understand Latency by StCredZero · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Time to burn some Karma...

    On a "News for Nerds" site, moderators should understand the sources of disk latency. Rotating Hard Drives have latency from the time it takes to move the head across the platter, and for the platter to rotate under the head. SSDs do not have these sources of latency.

    One of the big problems is that current flash is just slow on writes. Some of them don't do DMA properly. If there are problems with block sizes, this can be adjusted easily. But the underlying technology has to improve, or manufacturers need to build SSDs with more parallelism and better features. Perhaps very parallel SSD architectures might need filesystems optimized for large block sizes.

    One of the big potential benefits of flash is reliability. Imagine highly modular flash drives for servers with hardware RAID 5? Instead of a disk failure, you get a notification that a module needs replacing. In fact, you could build versions with an extra slot for a failover spare in-place!

    Also, with wear leveling, there's the potential for hard drives that can warn you several days before they fail!

    1. Re:Geeks Should Understand Latency by killmofasta · · Score: 2

      MOD PARENT +1 Informative.

      Funny, this is EXACTLY what the head of the industry association for Flash memory said at their trade show a few months ago. You...are...not...perhaps...him?

    2. Re:Geeks Should Understand Latency by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      One of the big potential benefits of flash is reliability. Imagine highly modular flash drives for servers with hardware RAID 5? Instead of a disk failure, you get a notification that a module needs replacing. In fact, you could build versions with an extra slot for a failover spare in-place!

      How is this any different from today ?

      If a drive in one of my servers fails, I get an email saying that it has happened. If said machine has a hot spare, then the RAID array will start rebuilding to that automatically.

      Also, with wear leveling, there's the potential for hard drives that can warn you several days before they fail!

      No more so than SMART combined with regular disk scrubs can, today.

    3. Re:Geeks Should Understand Latency by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Time to burn some Karma...

      Funny how something like that virtually guarantees you're going to be modded up.

      But in this case, I think it would have happened without a reference to karma; this is interesting.

    4. Re:Geeks Should Understand Latency by StCredZero · · Score: 1

      It would be different, because instead of replacing the whole drive, you'd just swap out a little card. This would enable RAID5 in smaller form factors, which would mean more reliable laptops and potential space savings in data centers.

  25. Why is this even a story? by Butisol · · Score: 1

    Should anyone really be surprised that SSD tech isn't quite mature and competitive yet? Hold your horses, it's coming! I'm absolutely thrilled that it's advancing as fast as it is, and in a few short years the vast majority of laptops and desktops will be packing SSDs that make hard drives based on spinning magnetic surfaces obsolete outside of a few niche purposes. Onwards!

  26. I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by symbolset · · Score: 1

    IDE media already lies to the controller about where the content is on the drive to compensate for densities beyond the original design and bad sectors. There's no good reason for your SSD to come perfectly honest about that either.

    That handles bad sectors, wear levelling, bad block failover, and a number of other issues.

    Now, about bandwidth. Solid State Drives are by definition, solid state. The way solid state devices work is that they are accessed and give up their data in real time. It takes a few nanoseconds to heat up the address lines and drag the data out of the hardware storage. If, for example, it takes too long to drag a sequence of bits out of the flash, there's no reason not to access many bits in parallel in the electronics on the device. So, given an infinite interface, how much data can you pull out of a properly designed SSD in a millisecond? All of it. And that should be fast enough for this decade, at least. The reason why many of these devices are bandwidth constrained is due to the limited thinking of the engineers who envisioned them as temporary storage for camera photos and external pen drives. No such limits are in fact present in the technology.

    If you're an engineer and you're looking at these constraints, you need to ask: "Well, whose fault is that and what can be done to change it?"

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    1. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by afidel · · Score: 1

      You're neglecting the fact that more data lines take more power and add expense and difficultly in packaging (expense).

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    2. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      IDE media already lies to the controller about where the content is on the drive to compensate for densities beyond the original design and bad sectors.

      Bad sectors can be handled in software, but that's a valid point. The rest of it is legacy crap.

      There's no good reason for your SSD to come perfectly honest about that either.

      Is there a reason for it not to?

      I'd say, the reason for it to be honest is, you can always use things like a BIOS and drivers to add the same functionality back in with software -- to lie to an OS which doesn't know better. But if you don't provide that kind of direct access, you also prevent any optimization by an OS that knows what it's doing.

      Kind of like, say, a video driver. No reason to speak OpenGL at the silicon layer.

      So, given an infinite interface, how much data can you pull out of a properly designed SSD in a millisecond? All of it.

      Indeed -- though remember that the interface, too, costs money. So faster media will cost you more. (I like to explain it as RAID1 with (storage/blocksize) nodes -- but often, the two 512 gig drives do cost more than one terabyte drive.)

      Problem is, of course, that the OS probably isn't ready for "all of it".

      What would worry me is if the SSD decided to pull as much as it could into some sort of RAM buffer, anticipating more reads -- and anticipating a stupid OS. And it would worry me if it hid this behind some physical abstraction layer, and passed itself off as just another SATA hard drive.

      Which means that we're stuck with whatever optimizations the SSD manufacturer made (even if they don't apply to our OS, or even if they're worse on all OSes), and we're stuck paying for extra hardware to compensate for shortcomings in Windows.

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    3. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by symbolset · · Score: 1

      You're neglecting the fact that more data lines take more power and add expense and difficultly in packaging (expense).

      No, I'm not. To access the same amount of data in the same amount of time requires the same amount of power. My suggestion does increase the possible net power over time based on an increase in performance. Did you hear? Users expect that. It's... predictable and linear.

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    4. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by Urkki · · Score: 1

      So you're suggesting more wires? Not only they'd use more power, but most importantly they take up valuable real estate on the silicon chip. And with longer distances you also have to run at lower clock frequency.

      So it is actually a limit of the technology, and a very physical limit inherent of all electronic matrix-like components, including such mundane things as keyboards.

    5. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by symbolset · · Score: 1

      I just posted it and already I have to update it. You'll find that as the feature size shrinks the power requirement shrinks also. That means that you have ample room in the thermal specification for the improvements I have written about above. If you need help with this, you can always contact me via gmail.

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    6. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by Urkki · · Score: 1

      More wires means they need more space, which means the wires have to be longer. Longer wires use more power as plain resistance, and also being more susceptibe to noise they need more power for the same s/n ratio.

    7. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Indeed -- though remember that the interface, too, costs money. So faster media will cost you more.

      No, this is a myth. Production efficiencies make the engineering effectively free. Faster media costs more because you can charge more for faster media. That's all.

      Problem is, of course, that the OS probably isn't ready for "all of it".

      That's easy enough to fix. You just patch the OS. It shouldn't take more than a few days if you have the source. Not having the source makes the question more problematic. You would have to convince the vendor to support the change. Then again, releasing the tech and letting the market sort that out is a good strategy for every question in this realm.

      There's no good reason for your SSD to come perfectly honest about that either.

      Is there a reason for it not to?

      Yes. I'm going to leave the answer to this question as an exercise for the readers.

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    8. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by Urkki · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's no good reason for your SSD to come perfectly honest about that either.

      Is there a reason for it not to?

      How about providing a consistent interface to the software driver? Do you *really* want solid state disks that all require a different driver? Sort of like current video hardware, which is plagued by buggy drivers, missing specs of the chip, missing open source drivers...

      I'd much rather have a standard interface, so that when I buy a disk, I know it'll work.

    9. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by symbolset · · Score: 1

      More wires means they need more space, which means the wires have to be longer. Longer wires use more power as plain resistance, and also being more susceptibe to noise they need more power for the same s/n ratio.

      These "wires" are nanometers in width and length, and by careful design they can be avoided altogether. Are we even talking about the same level of engineering? I'm talking at the silicon level here.

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    10. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by symbolset · · Score: 0

      It's time to call bullshit. You've objected to this like five times already and I've made all of your objections silly. Could you at least disclose for us which company you're defending here?

      I'm not even going to justify this objection with an answer because it's "Change! Change is bad!"

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    11. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by Urkki · · Score: 1

      Yes, we're very much talking in the silicon level. The transistors, the "bits" are in the same scale as the wires, so it doesn't matter how wide a wire (or is it "lead" when talking about silicon, or what?), what matter is the ratio of physical wire width vs. physical bit size.

      Let's take a megabit in the middle of a gigabit flash chip. How many wires do you suggest this "center megabit" should have connecting it to the outside world? Where would the wires physically be?

      And just what do you mean by "avoiding wires completely"? If you're talking about external copper wiring, then never mind, since that's not what I meant by wires, sorry for confusion... But if you're talking about avoiding "wires" on the silicon chip, then please clarify.

    12. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by Urkki · · Score: 1

      It's time to call bullshit. You've objected to this like five times already and I've made all of your objections silly. Could you at least disclose for us which company you're defending here?

      I'm not even going to justify this objection with an answer because it's "Change! Change is bad!"

      I didn't really pay attention to who I was objecting to, I was objecting to the issues. And above is the only time I'm objecting to your suggestion that flash disks shouldn't have a standard interface, not five times. Consider re-counting your fingers ;-).

      I understand that you feel that a device should require a device-specific software driver, so that the driver could be optimized for specific uses. I just disagree, because I don't see that making any sense in the real world. Any device that works without drivers has a huge advantage in the mass market over a similar device that requires drivers.

      Hiding the gritty details behind a standard interface is especially huge advantage in a field that is progressing very rapidly (such as SSD technology). That way you can essentially put the device to market around the time a competitor with a driver solution is just starting to test the drivers against the final version of the hardware (as well as testing the latest driver against all the previous generations of the same product).

      With video hardware, there is no alternative. There is and can't be standard interface, it's just too complex, new features appearing all the time that couldn't possibly be included in any existing standard. We're still years, maybe decades away from video hardware that can just take a world description over a standard interface, and then efficiently draw it with only internal optimizations.

      However, with data access, it's possible to have a good general standard, because the communication is essentially "gimme these sectors" and "write these sectors", and let the storage device internally figure where those sectors are, how the error correction is done, etc.

    13. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by Zygfryd · · Score: 1

      I don't see why we should throw away the potential performance and robustness of flash-specific filesystems just for backward compatibility with hard drives.

      ATA support is important, because it'll take a long time for all operating systems to gain support for flash-specific protocols and filesystems.
      But at the same time SSDs should export a MTD interface that would allow to fully take advantage of them.

      I don't know the SATA protocol, wouldn't it be possible to extend it through software alone? As to not require new host controllers.

      Otherwise it is obviously a problematic matter, but I'd choose a PCIe raw SSD over a SATA one any time.

    14. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by afidel · · Score: 1

      Actually, power requirements can go UP due to increased leakage current, but you obviously know nothing about circuit design so I'll leave it at that.

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    15. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Urkki,

      Sorry. I was responding to a different poster and messed up the context. You I agree with here. My mistake.

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    16. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by symbolset · · Score: 1

      then please clarify.

      It seems IBM has figured this out. How timely, eh?

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    17. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Do you *really* want solid state disks that all require a different driver?

      I don't know. Do I really want SATA interfaces that all require a different driver?

      Fact is, they don't -- you can always use the BIOS. The fact is that you can write a different driver, and there are benefits to doing so.

      Sort of like current video hardware, which is plagued by buggy drivers, missing specs of the chip, missing open source drivers...

      Because they screwed up that second part, and the lowest common denominator that the BIOS will give you is unaccelerated VESA.

      I don't have a problem with OpenGL being implemented in the BIOS. But I don't think it should be implemented in hardware.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    18. Re:I was explaining this to an engineer years ago by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      That's easy enough to fix. You just patch the OS. It shouldn't take more than a few days if you have the source.

      Which is why I explicitly mentioned Windows.

      You would have to convince the vendor to support the change.

      And if they didn't?

      Right, you would work around it. BIOS-based fakeraid is one example of this. Hardware wear-leveling in flash media is another.

      Some of these workarounds would work well, and would make sense. My worry is that some of them might actually prevent OSes from solving the problem more elegantly, when they finally do.

      That's why I've suggested we allow both.

      Yes. I'm going to leave the answer to this question as an exercise for the readers.

      Or, in other words, you don't have an argument, so you've left your argument as an "exercise for the reader" -- nice.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  27. Why I'm using over 16MB for work by billstewart · · Score: 1

    I've got a 30GB disk that's about full, with almost no music on it. A few years ago, disks jumped rapidly from 1GB to 2GB to 10GB then 30GB, so I've had enough space for quite a while, but I've finally caught up with Moore's Law.

    My work laptop uses MS Windows, Office, and Outlook. My current Outlook PST file is ~2GB for the past year, and I've got a total of about 10GB including older mail - I've found that really valuable, though bloated. And there's all that Powerpoint bloated material from training, presentations, etc. (And of course there's swap space, another 2GB or so.)

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  28. SSD is here already. by miffo.swe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My familys three eeepc and the one i have at work would be utter pain if they had spinning disks and not SSD. Cheap laptop drives is terrible when it comes to sequential reads but even worse at access times.

    Ubuntu runs faster in some areas on the eee than on my brand spanking new desktop.

    What i long for is faster speeds and more write cycles. Servers is what i think would benefit the most from SSD and thats where i suspect it will take off soon.

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
    1. Re:SSD is here already. by fremsley471 · · Score: 1

      Got an eee this month and am suddenly very aware of my tinnitus.

    2. Re:SSD is here already. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      The first machine I owned with an SSD was a Psion Series 3, in 1994. It had a 128KB flash SSD, which could only be erased in one go (you could write to it, but not reclaim space from 'deleted' files until you formatted it, which meant you needed to copy any data you wanted to keep off it). At the time, this SSD cost £30. Now, I own a few handheld devices containing 1GB cards which are much smaller and cost under £30. A quick google shows I can get an 8GB flash card for around what I paid for a 128KB one in 1994. That means that in 14 years, the capacity of an SSD of the same size has doubled 16 times, or roughly once every 10-11 months. I'd expect more of those doublings to have happened nearer to the present, since demand for flash has gone up a lot in the last few years, meaning more money is being invested into R&D and economies of scale are kicking in.

      How many more doublings do we need to get a 128GB flash drive for $200? A crucial 64GB SSD currently costs $899. The capacity needs to double once and the price needs to halve just over twice, giving a three capacity/cost doublings. If the rate of increase has been constant, then this will take approximately three years. Predicting them for 2010 doesn't seem too far-fetched. I'll probably wait a few more months and get a 256GB one though...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:SSD is here already. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My familys three eeepc and the one

      I sometimes wonder who the greater idiots are - iphone or eeepc owners/posers/fanbois.

  29. Re:You might like this better. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you should also link to twitter's attack journal:

    http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/204737
    http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/207689
    http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/206773

    when i grow up, I hope I can get away with shit like that.

  30. Solid state WILL be great... by Alarindris · · Score: 2, Insightful
    FTFA

    Also, the industry needs to effectively communicate why consumers or enterprise users should pay more for less storage

    For the consumers, or average Joe, there is no reason to pay more for less storage.

    The trade off is reliability. For 99%, if not more of the people using pc's today, a generic 120gb hd does the job just fine. On my desktop, I've never had any of the 3 hard drives fail in the last 12 years that I've been using them, or any time before that for that matter.

    From a fundamental electronics standpoint, SSD is amazing. It's what I dreamed of making in the early 80's when I was first turned on to electronics by ham radio and Apple //.

    As TFA states, it's not practical for now other than USB drives, which is fine. I just hope the development of these devices continue to recieve funding, because in the long run, it will be a boon to the PC industry.

    1. Re:Solid state WILL be great... by trifish · · Score: 1

      On my desktop, I've never had any of the 3 hard drives fail in the last 12 years that I've been using them, or any time before that for that matter.

      Reliability? Dude, you can't be serious. I've head 4 hard drives fail in my two desktop PCs I used in the last couple of years. Two Maxtors and two Seagates (one of them yesterday). Some of them were 7200 some of them were 5400 and one of them was "Enterprise-grade" storage.

      From the reliability point of view, hard drives are unbelievable and utter shit.

  31. Maybe for SOME applications... by solios · · Score: 1

    I think you need to get to 128GB for around $200

    Right. By the time the drives get to that price/capacity, SATA will be down to, what, 750g-1tb 2.5" drives for 50$-100$? Less?

    From everything I've gathered, the only major benefit to an SSD is that I won't swear as much when I accidentally drop my laptop while it's running. That and given the alleged longevity, they'd make a great drop-in replacement for laptops that are notoriously painful to perform user maintenance on, like the 12" Powerbook G4 (ever try to upgrade or replace the hdd on one of those? Butthurt!). Otherwise, the price/performance trend looks like it'll be favoring Ye Olde Spinny Bits for some time to come.

  32. Hard Drives at Altitude by Ex-MislTech · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One good reason for SSD would be the negative effects on
    using hard drives at high altitudes.

    They are not well documented either.

    http://forums.cnet.com/5208-6035_102-0.html?forumID=59&threadID=243684&messageID=2625001&tag=forums06;posts#2625001

    --
    google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
    1. Re:Hard Drives at Altitude by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Never knew that, you see a lot of people using laptops on aircraft, or does that not apply due to the pressurized cabin?

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  33. Final days of moving parts by eebra82 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It is good to see that the typical computer is closer to getting rid of moving parts. Currently we have HDDs, CD/DVD/BR/HDDVD players and fans. We know that the SSDs are replacing the HDDs and that the players will be wiped out by the internet, wireless and memory sticks. Now we just need something feasible to replace the damn fans to get the first true consumer notebook with no moving parts.

    1. Re:Final days of moving parts by speedingant · · Score: 1

      Does the EEE have any fans? I think thats a true consumer laptop for many people.

    2. Re:Final days of moving parts by imrehg · · Score: 1

      Does the EEE have any fans?

      You bet it does... With my 8G The processor is easily >60C even with the fan going constantly, you would cook the poor little thing without it... Hopefully the 901 will be much better due to the Atom's smaller power footprint...

    3. Re:Final days of moving parts by speedingant · · Score: 1

      Thats quite hot. Now I know why it needs one ;) I agree, Atom will be a great platform for ultra-portables. Cheers!

    4. Re:Final days of moving parts by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      I have a 901, and the fan seems to be running fairly continuously but it doesn't make much noise... It's also sitting on my lap and doesn't have great ventilation underneath and it's fairly warm in here.. The CPU reports itself at 53 degrees.

      Using the same components as an eee. but in a desktop case that's less cramped and has some large passive heatsinks should work well and be totally silent. Are there any such machines available, and are they affordably priced? They should cost less than an eee, not needing keyboard/touchpad/screen, but i've not seen anything which was competitively priced.

      --
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    5. Re:Final days of moving parts by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      Now we just need something feasible to replace the damn fans to get the first true consumer notebook with no moving parts.

      There are ion-cooling techniques which require no moving parts to get the air flowing, but even better than that are the Atom-style processors which can be designed to not need active cooling. I wait for the day that my passively cooled, SSD laptop arrives.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    6. Re:Final days of moving parts by eebra82 · · Score: 1

      There are ion-cooling techniques which require no moving parts to get the air flowing, but even better than that are the Atom-style processors which can be designed to not need active cooling. I wait for the day that my passively cooled, SSD laptop arrives.

      Absolutely, I know of many techniques that provide for fanless solutions. Unfortunately, they are either too expensive, not efficient enough or simply too big. I call for a solution that tackles all three problems.

    7. Re:Final days of moving parts by dotancohen · · Score: 1
      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    8. Re:Final days of moving parts by TedRiot · · Score: 1

      I also (in addition to the laptop) want a cheap passively cooled and no moving parts computer that I can connect a keyboard, a mouse and a display to.

      Doesn't need much computing power by todays standards, some web surfing and running OOo will be enough for me, which apparently the eee is enough for. It's funny that when you try to build a fanless surfing machine, it's possible, but becomes quite expensive considering what eee costs.

    9. Re:Final days of moving parts by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      Have you looked at the Dell Axim x50v? I have one, and you can connect a bluetooth keyboard to it. I am not sure about the mouse, but there is little need for that anyway. There is a full-fledged office suit available for it, for about 50 Euros or so, I think it is called Textmaker or something like that. Opera is also available for a decent web browsing experience.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    10. Re:Final days of moving parts by TedRiot · · Score: 1

      What I was actually looking for was something like eee box pc (just heard about it for the first time in this discussion), but fanless and without the spinning disks.

    11. Re:Final days of moving parts by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      There is one, either in planning or possible already on the shelf. They really are not powerful enough for the work that I do, but if a ~8" monitor and slow single core processor don't bother you then go through arstechnica | /. | digg archives and I'm sure you'll find it.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
  34. HDD Failure Rate by Snugglypoo · · Score: 1

    If your laptop has lost three hard disk drives in one year, a solid state drive makes plenty of sense.

  35. Interesting math you have there by celtic_hackr · · Score: 1

    Last I looked 7200 RPM SATA drives easily perform above 20 GB/s real world usage.

    The fastest SSDs are around 15 GB/s real world.
    This isn't a huge difference, but the cheap SDHCs are about 4GB/s.

    Cheap hard drives are still way faster than cheap SDHCs.

    Cheap:
    300 GB SATA ~ $70
    16 GB SDHC ~ $50

    Still, the claim that SSDs aren't ready for prime time is the same as saying Linux isn't ready for the desktop. Both are fallacies. Sure, SDHCs don't maker sense everywhere as a a solution.

    I have no real need for a 300 GB drive.
    I could squeak by on as little as 32 GB. But that'd be a real stretch. I'd be able to be comfortable with 3 16 GB SSDs and at about $150 for that would be a reasonable trade for me for the other benefits, even if it means a 6 GB/s throughput.

    1. Re:Interesting math you have there by mollymoo · · Score: 1

      Last I looked 7200 RPM SATA drives easily perform above 20 GB/s

      Look closer, you have your bits and bytes mixed up.

      --
      Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
    2. Re:Interesting math you have there by celtic_hackr · · Score: 1

      Whoa, I really made some mistakes there. Off by some decimal places.

      20GB/s sb 200 MB/s up to 300MB/s

      and SSDs in the 100 to 150 MB/s range
      and SHDCs are in the 4 - 20 MB/s category.

      Not GB/s. Sorry.

      Thanks for pointing that out. Still my basic premise that hard drives are way faster than the other two still stands.

  36. Not so much by symbolset · · Score: 1

    So it is actually a limit of the technology,

    At the silicon level we're talking about wires that are maybe 45nm wide by perhaps 500nm long. We can afford the space they take up and the time it takes a charge to traverse them relative to the alternative we're talking about, which is a spinning physical disk with magnetic pattern on it read by a physical head that must overcome inertia to move back and forth.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
    1. Re:Not so much by jimdread · · Score: 1

      At the silicon level we're talking about wires that are maybe 45nm wide by perhaps 500nm long. We can afford the space they take up

      You're talking about having an infinite number of these wires. So the space they would take up is: 45nm * infinity, or rather a lot really. But let's pretend that you only said there would be a million wires. A million wires at 45nm wide would be 45mm wide. That's getting rather wide since a 2.5 inch drive is only 63.5mm wide. Then you need insulation between the wires, since if they touch, the system won't work properly. But hey let's pretend you can get insulation which is only 1nm wide. Let's say you can get your million wires into a plug 50mm wide. How are you going to wire up a plug with a million wires?

      Then you've got the bus. Will your bus also be a million wires wide? Or will you have to serialise the output from the SSD to make it fit over the bus? Supposing you had a million wire wide bus, then you've got the CPU. Will the CPU have a million data input wires? And will the registers in the CPU be a million bits wide? One day, maybe they will. But for now, we're stuck with buses and CPUs and registers which are only a few bytes wide. Once they reach the limit of increasing the clock speed on the bus, they'll probably start making buses a lot wider. But there is still a very long way to go before you'd get a million bit wide bus. Until then, we can't make the infinite bandwidth flash drive, because there's nowhere to put the infinite amount of data all arriving at the same time.

  37. I see you have a dream ... by celtic_hackr · · Score: 1

    Or is it a fantasy?

    Your confidence in vaporware is disturbing and will be your downfall. Currently SLOW 32 GB SDHCs are selling at > $200. In two years (2010) we ***might*** see 128 GB SDHCs at ~ $300 capable of 8 GB/s throughput.

    1. Re:I see you have a dream ... by davidpfarrell · · Score: 1

      I don't consider SDHC to be in the same category as they have to deal with a MUCH smaller footprint than SSD.

      And if I can get 128GB SDHC for $300 I expect being able to use 30x-50x larger components for SSD should yield a considerably lower price.

      --
      Cube On! (http://stores.ebay.com/PuzzleProz)
    2. Re:I see you have a dream ... by celtic_hackr · · Score: 1

      Sorry, it was the end of another very long day, and I misread your post.

      Yes, SSD =/= SDHC.

      You masy be correct on that, depending on your definition of "much less". I doubt you'll see 128 GB SSDs for less than $150 within 2 years. Maybe in 4 they'll go for $80. Size isn't of course the only issue in cost, but demand and available supply also.

      Anyway, sorry for the mix up.

  38. Vista takes about 15GB by symbolset · · Score: 1

    Windows XP takes 4-5GB (while Vista takes about 15GB). Do you see where this is going?

    Yes, I do. Do you?

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
    1. Re:Vista takes about 15GB by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Windows XP takes 4-5GB (while Vista takes about 15GB). Do you see where this is going?

      Yes, I do. Do you?

      Nice one! Maybe he/she/it might also want to know that my entire Ubuntu install, including a all of my installed applications (and there are a lot of them, some are quite large) is like 12-15 GB.

    2. Re:Vista takes about 15GB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously not.

      Which operating system do you think the average person is going to get when they buy a new computer?

      I'll give you a hint, it's not Linux.

  39. SSD would be great in my "dream HTPC" by Kjella · · Score: 1

    What I'd want:

    Fanless processor
    Fanless motherboard
    - HW acceleration of H.264/VC1/MPEG2
    - HDMI out with LPCM
    - GigE to file server
    Small SSD
    Fanless case/PSU

    The pieces are coming togeter but it's not quite there.... I guess it matters what you want, SSDs aren't unreasonably expensive if you're looking for something else than $/GB. For that, nothing will beat a TB+ size regular HDD...

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:SSD would be great in my "dream HTPC" by marcuz · · Score: 1

      you can buy everything you wrote but the price is high for some parts and its a little complicated to build.
      i use ordinary computer case with only 2 slowblowing fans and its really quiet now. i use biggest heatsink for cpu, passive psu,gpu,mb cooling.
      they should start making some advanced cases which have some sort of wiring for internal components and a disipate the heat efficiently into space. well, i have seen exactly this but the price was horrible.

    2. Re:SSD would be great in my "dream HTPC" by Kjella · · Score: 1

      you can buy everything you wrote but the price is high for some parts and its a little complicated to build.

      I doubt it, but I'm willing to listen to suggestions. The only computers I've seen to be cool enough to run completely fanless seem to be Atom/VIA class processors - no matter how big heat sinks you put on convection can only do so much, like in your case you got two fans going. Right now a G45 board and low-end Core processor seems the best option, but I doubt that can be run without active cooling.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:SSD would be great in my "dream HTPC" by marcuz · · Score: 1

      I am using core2duo with Thermaltake Sonic Tower (i was cooling amd xp cpu with this before). those two fans are almost silent - they rotate slowly just to direct the heat flow.
      i think i can turn them off but sometimes its just too hot in the room.
      good solution is to underclock your cpu just to be cool enough.

      one should get some other gpu than my very hot nvidia one

      but the nice case cooling i was talking about is something like Zalman TNN-300 ... and it is really incredibly expensive!

    4. Re:SSD would be great in my "dream HTPC" by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      You can get all this, but it's a tad expensive and the fanless heatsinks tend to be rather large. Some are external, with heatpipes.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    5. Re:SSD would be great in my "dream HTPC" by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Computers used to be quiet, i remember keeping my Amiga 1200 running all night silently...

      Surely with modern technology it should be possible to produce something completely silent. I have an eee 901 here and it's silent apart from it's internal fan that comes on when under load... If you put the components that make up an eee into a bigger case with large passive heat sinks and good natural ventilation instead of a cramped laptop chassis it should be able to run completely silently.

      --
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    6. Re:SSD would be great in my "dream HTPC" by Kjella · · Score: 1

      I have an eee 901 here and it's silent apart from it's internal fan that comes on when under load... If you put the components that make up an eee into a bigger case with large passive heat sinks and good natural ventilation instead of a cramped laptop chassis it should be able to run completely silently.

      That'd be the EEE Box PC, which is pretty quiet but
      a) Not fanless (maybe could be but not out of the box)
      b) No HW acceleration
      c) No HDMI output (DVI limited to 1600x1200, can't do 1080p)

      Poulsbo has limited HW acceleration, G45 has full HW acceleration but the GMA950 typically used with Atoms have none and can't even manage a 1080p unaccelerated desktop.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    7. Re:SSD would be great in my "dream HTPC" by TheSunborn · · Score: 1

      You can get a fan less computer from deltatronic(www.deltatronic.de). They will sell you as something as fast as it get. They do have an
      Intel Core 2 Extreme QX9770 4 x 3,20 GHz 12288 (2x 6144) kB cache, FSB 1600 MHz, Yorkfield 45nm Quad Core, socket 775
      Which you can pair up with a
      NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT dual DVI-I with HDCP, 2 x Dual Link (or NVIDIA GeForce 8600GT)

      But it's not cheep.

    8. Re:SSD would be great in my "dream HTPC" by bestinshow · · Score: 1

      I think that your best bet for a HTPC would be something based upon AMD's 780G platform, with an SSD and a decent fanless cooler on one of AMD's 45W CPUs (maybe underclocked / undervolted a bit - use a motherboard with AMD's SB750 which provides excellent assistance for over/underclocking and voltage changes.

    9. Re:SSD would be great in my "dream HTPC" by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      That's assuming you want the box for playing video... For any other use it's great.
      Also, how much content actually comes in 1080p?
      Incidentally, all of the Atom boards i've seen only had VGA, not even DVI.. It is possible to do 1080p through DVI, HDMI only gets you the audio through the same connector.

      --
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    10. Re:SSD would be great in my "dream HTPC" by Kjella · · Score: 1

      That's assuming you want the box for playing video... For any other use it's great.

      When I say I want a HTPC = Home Theater PC, yes that's one of the requirements...

      Also, how much content actually comes in 1080p?

      Enough, if you know where to look ;)

      Incidentally, all of the Atom boards i've seen only had VGA, not even DVI.. It is possible to do 1080p through DVI, HDMI only gets you the audio through the same connector.

      I know that but the current Atom boards can't do 1080p because of the chipset, not DVI. And HDMI is not only about the same connector, it's the only way to get 7.1 sound to the reciever digitally. Otherwise it'll either get downsampled to 5.1 and sent over optical or decoded and sent analog.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    11. Re:SSD would be great in my "dream HTPC" by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      The processor you want is probably a TI OMAP3530, not an x86 chip. If you want fanless with decent video decoding capabilities you want to look at the kind of chip they use for H.264 playback in mobile devices.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  40. "according to a Computerworld story" by Dahamma · · Score: 1

    Not that it's not at least as post-worthy as half the other content on /. - but I find it "interesting" that a Computerworld employee/blogger submitted a Computerworld story with the impression that he was a neutral observer...

    Oh well. As I said, still better than the average story, I probably shouldn't complain.

  41. CF cards and poor DMA support... by RudeIota · · Score: 2, Informative

    Turned out it didn't fully support DMA...??? Like they didn't complete all the traces properly...

    This problem is rampant in many flash card models and brands - even ones that claim to support DMA or UDMA. Search around on the interweb using your Napster machine and you'll see many others with the same issues.

    After trying a Transcend 4GB 133x that would only work in PIO mode, I got my hands on a Ridata 4GB 266x that *does* work in DMA. So if anyone is considering that card, maybe that's a good sign. :)

    Mechanical challenges turned out to be not the only ones waiting for me when I worked on connecting the CF cards to the camera. These cards were hanging when the CPU tried to read them using DMA mode (and the card identified itself as supporting DMA mode). I tried to find the problem, and used all the tools I had. I added a bunch of printk's to the driver source, tried different speed settings for the DMA, and finally used an oscilloscope to spy on the signals between the CF card and the CPU. What I found was that the card did actually send the data using DMA mode, but always only for two "sectors" (1024 bytes total), regardless of the number of blocks to transfer written to the corresponding register. Then it silently hung, without activating an IRQ line, even if it was asked to transfer just a single block. And the CPU was relying on that interrupt to continue with the processing of the data read from the CF card. Careful examination of the data on the IDE bus did not reveal any problems (I was expecting something specific to the ETRAX). The same CF card with the DMA mode disabled in the driver worked fine (but slower, of course), as did the IDE hard drive (or SATA through the bridge) with DMA enabled. Googling the issue showed that I'm not the first to have problems with CF cards and DMA. The driver itself had a blacklist for some of the devices that caused problems. -- http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT5102023409.html

    --
    Fact: Everything I say is fiction.
  42. it makes sense now (for some uses)... by simplerThanPossible · · Score: 1

    ... typing this on an eee PC.

    The article means"when it makes sense for most laptops/desktops to use SSD. The special advantages of SSDs - less power, lightweight and robust (no moving parts) - are especially attractive for mobile applications (e.g. ipod, sublaptop).

    For GB per $, SSD will always be more expensive than HDD, even as both get cheaper. But if we assume that the demand for GB does not increase as fast, then eventually both will be affordable. The comparison then shifts to other considerations, and SSD wins.

    "The innovator's dilemma" is based on similar shifts in HHD technology (as the size decreased).

  43. Re:One small correction by petermgreen · · Score: 1

    Do you have a source for that claim? My brother has an EEE 900 and at least according to windows the drives are SSDs and everything I have read online says the same.

    Tiny hard drives do indeed exist but my understanding is they are rather slow.

    --
    note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  44. New Vaio Z with RAID 0 SSD by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 1

    Already being sold in Japan, you can get a Raid 0 SSD laptop for about 4000 dollars. That is 2 SSD disks in a slick laptop for 4000 dollars, out of the box and ready to go. And the thing only weighs about 1.4kg (3lbs), has an LCD that does 1600x900, HDMI port (finally), and an NVIDIA GeForce 9300M.

    photos:
    http://www.vaio.sony.co.jp/Products/Z1/gallery_window.html?phtNum=2&phtMax=14&phtSizeX=750&phtSizeY=500

    product page:
    http://www.vaio.sony.co.jp/Products/Z1/

    1. Re:New Vaio Z with RAID 0 SSD by subStance · · Score: 1

      If you really like this go ahead, but be warned - by someone who actually bought a Vaio Premium SZ and suffers daily for it - that Sony in japan *sucks* with a nuclear capability. The laptop crashed 5 times a day on average running the OS only ... literally nothing else installed, it would crash repeatedly browsing Slashdot or digg. It was sent back to the factory twice, no change. I asked for a refund or a change to another model, nothing.

      I installed Ubuntu and it works, but most of the peripherals like the webcam and fingerprint reader don't. But at least it doesn't crash anymore.

      I can't speak for Sony outside of Japan, but I strongly recommend against buying from Sony in Japan. Seriously the *worst* product and customer service I've ever dealt with, especially for a product that cost over US$3500 at the time.

      There's a good reason Vaio happens to be a four letter word.

      --
      Servlet v2.4 container in a single 161KB jar file ? Try Winstone
    2. Re:New Vaio Z with RAID 0 SSD by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 1

      Well, that's strange. All of my posts are brought to you by a Vaio SZ carrying an SSD that I installed myself (not easy, but came out great).

      that cost over US$3500 at the time.

      From "at the time" I assume you bought your laptop over a year ago, maybe two. Did you have Vista? Because many if not most of the laptops with early Vista installs had issues, mostly thanks to microsoft.

      I am not going to defend any customer support department, and I am sure Vaio support failed to make you happy, but i've learned to buy PCs for their hardware alone a loooong time ago. Most software problems you just have to solve yourself.

  45. I think... by speedingant · · Score: 1
    This is rubbish. Apple/Dell/HP etc, have done the right thing. They have bought in SSD to their product line, at a premium, but they are selling. The more they sell, the more they make, the less they cost. If no-one uses it, it won't sell and they won't make as much, so manufacturing costs go up. Its simple supply and demand. And the fact is that people are buying SSD, and it is a relevant technology.

    It makes sense to bring it into the products lines of today for these reasons. Early adoption brings quicker changes in technology, and brings more money into new technologies to help them develop quicker.

    Thats my slightly intoxicated views on this subject, without reading the article. : )

    1. Re:I think... by Icarium · · Score: 1

      I think any article based on any viewpoint espoused by 'an analyst at Gartner' is probably rubbish. I'd sooner take advice from Mr A.C Oward that give credence to anyone affiliated with Gartner.

  46. Re:Why I'm using over 16MB for work by Sobrique · · Score: 2, Informative

    I hope it's not something important in that outlook PST. Because PST files are a really ugly data format, that are horrifically prone to corruption and just generally 'not working'. If it's important to have archives, the tool for the job is archiving it. Not keeping it in massive piles of 'maybe I will need it' junk on your HDD.

  47. Might not happen ever... by Panaqqa · · Score: 1

    ...especially if the hard drive manufacturers are successful in their spurious patent infringement lawsuits against Flash RAM manufacturers. This could derail the process for years. I know that they are also using the International Trade Commission "double whammy" to attempt to clobber imports of Flash RAM independent of their (presumably Marshall TX) lawsuits.

    Try installing something you can't buy. Not too easy.

    1. Re:Might not happen ever... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...especially if the hard drive manufacturers are successful in their spurious patent infringement lawsuits against Flash RAM manufacturers. This could derail the process for years.

      Much of the non-US part of the world will move on at full speed even if the US is unable to take advantage.

  48. Less power consumption as key advantage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IsnÂt one of the key advantages of SSD that it is less power consuming? I see increased battery life as the major factor when I look at SSD laptops. Complementet with an external drive at home the storage space isn't a problem, probably most laptop owners have an external drive at home alread. Wouldn't like to wander around with the only single copy of my documents I know that for sure, and a laptop wouldn't hold my media archived anyways.

  49. It's ready now... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

    I have the 20GB eee 901, and it makes a perfect laptop for my needs with it's solid state drive.
    The drive is perfectly fast enough, and the size is more than adequate... I have my OS and apps on the first 4GB drive with space to spare, and the second 16GB drive is for my data... I can fit several movies and tons of music on there to entertain me while i'm traveling, and there's more than enough space for any documents and code i will typically be working on... And the eee screen is not big enough to justify HD movies.

    There's also the SD slot for which 16GB cards are very cheap these days, so i can add more storage if needed, and being on little cards they can be pulled out.

    When i've finished watching the movies on the laptop, i just hook up an external usb drive and replace the movies on the eee.
    I have a set of usb drives (totaling several terabytes) at home with various data files, i don't need access to everything all of the time.

    Solid state is perfect for me, it's quiet and low power, and won't get damaged by sudden jolts etc...

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  50. *Sigh* I'm going to miss that tick-tick-tick by eagee · · Score: 1

    Is anyone else going to miss the tick-tick-tick of their hard drive when everything goes to solid state? I still miss the Whuuurrr Whuuuurrr of my 5 1/4 when I start my computer up (not that I want to go back to floppies, but I still miss it:) ...

  51. Re:One small correction by mollymoo · · Score: 1

    Most use SSDs or 2.5" hard drives. Look at this table - they're all SSD or have HDDs whose capacity suggests a 2.5" form factor.

    --
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  52. OK, so writes are slower by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So why not use RAM for your "virtual" memory.

  53. Performance is not always the dominating factor by davidwr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Reliability and data protection may be more important.

    What I'd love in a portable device where performance wasn't the overriding factor:

    1) Temporary files stored on a media that doesn't wear out, e.g. RAM or HD
    2) Permanent files that are not confidential stored on a media that's resistant to shock. Accelerometers help but silicon generally wins here.
    3) Confidential files that are in a "2-part" format. This could mean an encryption key on a dongle, or it could mean encrypted files with some of the bytes on a removable media.

    A two-bank silicon "drive" in a RAID-0-like format with one of the memory devices removable greatly increases security even if the data is not encrypted. If it is encrypted or even compressed using certain algorithms, it won't even be partially recoverable without both pieces. This is also provides "two-key" or even "3-key" access for sensitive operations: One person has the laptop, one person has the external half of the data, and a 3rd person has the encryption keys.

    This also gets around the "search your laptop at ports of entry" problem - if one person carries the laptop, and the other half of the data is sent by courier or electronically, there's not much to search. Of course, this doesn't have to be a 50/50 proposition, with encrypted data it could be 90/10 or even 99.99/0.01, with the small part shipped over the wire and downloaded to a hotel courtesy computer and put on a USB key.

    --
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  54. Solid state for police/fire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As a ff/paramedic the laptops we use (both truck-mounted and toughbooks) get quite a bit of abuse... though the Solid state drives are smaller, we store all patient information on a server as the report is finished, so we really don't need that much space anyway. most failures are from HDDs.
    solid state gets the rating of 'firefighter proof'

  55. I guess my EEE PC doesn't make sense by gillbates · · Score: 1

    Why not just say, "Vista doesn't make sense." The relatively small capacity of SSD is not an issue for those of us who run Linux. The great thing about SSD is that I don't have to worry so much about shock, and if I need more space, I can always carry a conventional USB hard drive. That way, I can add capacity by simply buying a larger drive - no OS reinstall needed.

    SSD is perfect for laptops. It solves the fundamental problems of durability and power consumption.

    --
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  56. OCZ seems close by stiller · · Score: 1

    If you look at the current OCZ crop:

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227345

    Then admittedly, it still has some way to go in both price and performance, but at the current rate, I expect this capacity to hit the 200 mark within one year, not two.

  57. Bullshit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, fragmentation isn't the answer. That seems to be what you're suggesting...

    See, fragmentation introduces problems of its own -- for example, simple overhead of block allocation. If you've got a bunch of blocks that are sequential -- say, block 123, 124, 125, 126, and 127 -- you can say that a file is in an extent, from block 123-127. If, however, your file is stored in blocks 123, 259, 312, 567, and 964, you're going to have to store all of those addresses -- which means you're spending 250% more disk space simply storing addresses

    I call bullshit. Nobody's filesystem is that stupid, not even FAT. Storing addresses means writing a couple more bytes to an inode or allocation table. It doesn't mean storing the whole damn block somewhere else. Flash block sizes are ~512 bytes, so what you're really looking at is a linear increase of disk space as the disk becomes fragmented, with a rather small constant (the size of a memory address, plus any alignment/padding/whatever the file system chooses to add). Fragmentation doesn't matter at all on a random access device (save cache performance, but we won't go there for now, things get too complicated), so it makes perfect sense to store Out Of Order on Flash.

    Flash natively does this anyways, due to wear leveling. So it's even less of an issue than you'd like to think.

    Also, Flash is written to (and read from) in rather huge blocks -- so you want a file to at least be contiguous on that level.

    I just said they're written to in (approximately) 512 bytes (some companies go a bit more for parody checking, etc). That's not huge by anyone's definition. 8 would fit in your typical memory page. In fact, most hard drives use block sizes that are much larger than this, as do many file systems. (What's NTFS up to these days, 32k blocks? Yes, that's 64 flash nodes.)

    No, I would say that the simple solution to Flash not appearing to perform as well (for sequential operations) is to defragment just as aggressively, and to increase readahead by a lot. Flash would work great for contiguous sequential reads, assuming that the filesystem (or block layer) are anticipating that you'll keep reading from the same file.

    Except it doesn't matter. There's absolutely ZERO perceivable performance penalty in random access on memory cells. (What are we talking about, throwing three transistors to change the read lanes?) That's what makes random access so attractive. That's why Flash is so attractive.

    But first, you need the flash disk itself to support simultaneous reads, and probably some OS support as well.

    OSes already support multiple different read scenarios. It's no different than arranging N-memory geometries; it doesn't matter if they're laid out 8x16 or 16x8, you're trading a tiny fraction of throughput for a few transistors in budget. SD cards are particularly slow because they use a particularly slow interface, but there's nothing preventing you from wrapping Flash in any interface you want. That's what SSDs do; they're an (S)ATA controller wired directly to a multi-level memory controller. The OS sees it no differently than a disk, and the controller sees the RAM no differently than SD (well, okay, slightly differently, namely in timing details).

    1. Re:Bullshit. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Storing addresses means writing a couple more bytes to an inode or allocation table.

      Take a multi-gigabyte file, with, say, 4k blocks. For each gigabyte, that's 262,144 addresses.

      Store it as mostly-contiguous extents, and you spend a few bytes. Store it as individual addresses, and you're up to a megabyte or two, depending on the size of your address.

      The "250% more space" was talking about the metadata, not the data itself. I'm not implying that one-gig file now takes 2.5 gigs.

      Flash natively does this anyways, due to wear leveling.

      Which means that if the filesystem itself is fragmented, you've got overhead on top of that overhead.

      And that's assuming it does the wear-leveling itself. There's always jffs2 -- Linux filesystem which natively does wear-leveling -- but it requires lower-level access to the Flash than most interfaces provide.

      There's absolutely ZERO perceivable performance penalty in random access on memory cells.

      No, what I'm talking about is the performance penalty caused by an OS assuming it's dealing with a hard drive. Given that assumption, it might do something stupid like wait for each read to complete before sending another -- which would be reasonable, given a slow disk, but is quite unreasonable, given Flash.

      With an OS like that, one optimization is for the hardware to anticipate the filesystem wanting the next megabyte, or hundred megabytes, and reading them all simultaneously into its own cache, ready and waiting for the OS. But for it to do this, they need to at least be logically contiguous (as far as the OS knows).

      I hope we don't do that.

      --
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  58. Uhh, by moving blocks? by ciroknight · · Score: 1

    You move around full blocks. It's not a particularly fast endeavor, but most computers sit around idle for 99% of the time anyways, so it doesn't hurt them in real world performance.

    --
    "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
  59. We're already at 80 GB for $200 today... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    $39.99 for 16 GB CF * 5 = $199.95 for 80 GB.

    Does the author seriously think the extra 48 GB is going to make a difference? And that it will take 2 years to get 48 GB more for $200?

    Crack, meet author. Oh, I see you're already met. Long term relationship even. My bad.

  60. Databases with SSD by Twinbee · · Score: 1

    When SLC SSDs become the norm and random read/write speeds are as fast as sequential, how would that effect database design or the preference of particular database types for many large web sites?

    --
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  61. Cost savings... by ElboRuum · · Score: 1

    Best choice for performance magnetic drives are? The bankability of SSDs concern they with worry?

    Well, if these manufacturers would spend the few frickin' dollars for a decent HEAT SINK, I wouldn't be so gung ho to replace them in all of there power-sucking heat-generating glory.

    My laptop: WHIIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR... [silence for three seconds] WHIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR... [burns lap] WHIRRRRRRRRRRRRRR... [drys wet clothes out of the washer with air stream from fans in three seconds flat.] WHIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR... [scorches paint] WHIIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR... [finally melts a hole in case]... WHIRRRR... [silence]

    Guess the drive and the CPU are getting enough air now.

  62. How timely is that? by symbolset · · Score: 1

    It seems IBM thought it was possible. And then they did it.

    Maybe you'll get the next one. Good luck.

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  63. Heavy storage needs? by symbolset · · Score: 1

    Try this external USB drive and put some velcro between it and the back of your display. When you don't need it, remove it. Problem solved.

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    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  64. But I want a Super Star Destroyer now! :( by Control-Z · · Score: 1

    I can't see "SSD" without it taking me back to X-Wing and TIE Fighter days.

    http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ssd.html

  65. Re:Why I'm using over 16MB for work by billstewart · · Score: 1

    Oh, of course it's important - though things that are obviously extra-important get saved as individual files, and I try to take most of the bloated powerpoints and save them directly rather than leaving them to burn space. PST files have gotten much more reliable during the last couple of versions of Outlook, though they're still ugly, and I'd much rather have a better format for my email (even /bin/mail format :-) But typically I'll get a couple of ad-hoc queries a week along the lines of "hey, back when Customer X was your account, did they ever install that $foo or could they never get it working?" or "has anybody had a customer do $bar, and how did it work?" or "Customer Z finally decided their old system is broken enough they have to replace it, can you tell me whether any of the N different things we've proposed to them in the last 3 years that were all too expensive are better than the too-expensive system they're looking at this time?" And the way to answer them is usually to mount up last year's email box (stored in separate parts because Outlook chokes if mailboxes get too big) and wait for Outlook to search through them.

    On the other hand, I also keep a number of my old Eudora mailboxes around, which are 10% the size, and easy to grep through. (I split off separate files when I'm doing a major backup round or when I upgraded software versions.) One of my antivirus programs thinks there's something dangerous in there, and won't tell me exactly what or where, but it appears to be random characters in a MIME header divider somewhere :-)

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