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Bloatware Removal Threatens PC Industry Profits

Anti-Globalism sends along a piece on how a consumer-friendly service is not so good for PC manufacturers. "Before they ship PCs to retailers like Best Buy, computer makers load them up with lots of free software. For $30, Best Buy will get rid of it for you. That simple cleanup service is threatening the precarious economics of the personal computer industry. Software companies pay hundreds of millions of dollars to PC makers like Hewlett-Packard to install their photo tools, financial programs, and other products, usually with some tie-in to a paid service or upgrade. With margins growing thinner than most laptops, this critical revenue can make the difference between profit and loss for the computer makers, industry analysts say."

44 of 341 comments (clear)

  1. We call this the linux philosophy by poetmatt · · Score: 4, Informative

    Thankfully, Linux comes pretty free of bloatware. I guess they don't like that artificially inflated revenues by shoving crapware in people's faces is now heading back towards "realistic revenues by giving people what they actually want"?

    I seem to recall a time way back when some company actually installed gator with their pc's bloatware.

    1. Re:We call this the linux philosophy by nelsonal · · Score: 4, Informative

      The people have already spoken. They want the best hardware specs on the side for the least money with little care about measures of quality that require a little more knowledge. When was the last time you heard of anyone buying an airplane ticket based on anything other than price and time?

      Other companies already build similar computers without bloatware, but the prices are higher and they have fewer customers.

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    2. Re:We call this the linux philosophy by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually I know a fair number of people who won't fly particular airlines if there's any reasonable alternative available because of the bad service they've gotten from them. It's obviously not unlimited, for instance they might be willing to pay an extra 10% to avoid the undesirable airline but not an extra 30%, but they will pay a certain amount extra not to have to deal with something they've had problems with before.

    3. Re:We call this the linux philosophy by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Seat size, spacing, food quality, staff friendliness. There are lots of things on airlines that people gripe about, but will never pay more for.

    4. Re:We call this the linux philosophy by D'Sphitz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Like most nerds I build my own PC's, but I also help teach non-techie friends and family to order parts and assemble their own pc's.

      They're all surprised when they find out it's not rocket science, and they end up with a better pc than they'd get at Best Buy for a fraction of the cost, custom built to their needs and sans bloatware. Many have gone on to build their next generation pc without my help.

      I think that's a bigger threat to retail PC sales than removing bloatware, the current generation who are growing up with gadgets and computers will be even more likely to take on building their own computers. It really makes no sense to buy a retail pc, they cost more, they come with stuff you don't need, they're missing stuff you do need, they're little more than marketing in a box. I think the only reason people buy them is because they are intimidated by the prospect of building their own, or don't realize they're being gamed.

    5. Re:We call this the linux philosophy by Kamokazi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If Linux was sold in retail channels and had marketshare like Windows, the same exact thing would happen. Quicken, Adobe XX, Roxio XX, Turbotax, etc. would all have Linux versions that would get preinstalled just the same (along with a host of 'update' programs from the manufacturer and those software vendors. It would be the same on OS X if they licensed it to 3rd party PC makers. It's just the marketshare and how Windows is sold that causes this, not Windows itself.

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    6. Re:We call this the linux philosophy by Z00L00K · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Reasonable service is also a factor when buying ticket...

      Flying is like sitting on a collective toilet for several hours. And considering all security measures etc. today you start to be willing to pay at least for some comfort in the chair. Maybe the security measures are promoted by the airline industry to make people more willing to pay for comfort?

      As for bloatware - I always nuke the standard installation and make a clean installation of Windows whenever necessary. The security risks and performance issues with bloatware makes it worthwhile.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    7. Re:We call this the linux philosophy by Z00L00K · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Like Ryanair where you have to pay extra for everything, even the permission to bring luggage - and then they dump you at some rural airport with limited connections which means that you will pay the price anyway, but on the ground.

      Air France is a "no go" on my list. Rude behavior, bad timing, sleepover at hotel rooms that looks like they are rented per hour etc.

      Iceland Air and Virgin Atlantic are currently on my positive list.

      SAS is somewhere in between right now.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    8. Re:We call this the linux philosophy by Curien · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Unfortunately, we don't have anything like that in the US. Our budget airlines are about half the price of the major ones. It's unheard of to buy tickets here for a couple bucks like you can on Ryanair.

      --
      It's always a long day... 86400 doesn't fit into a short.
    9. Re:We call this the linux philosophy by snowraver1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      I would much rather fly in a toilet stall. They are private, rarely have screaming babies, no one reclines their toilet into your stall, and some even have private screens for watching adverts(better than most movies they show).

      --
      Copyright 2010. All rights reserved. This comment may not be copied in any way including, but not limited to caching.
    10. Re:We call this the linux philosophy by snoyberg · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm not going to take advice from someone who doesn't know that "douche nugget" is two words, you illiterate douche nugget.

      --
      Thank God for evolution.
    11. Re:We call this the linux philosophy by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 5, Funny

      Air France is a "no go" on my list. Rude behavior [...]

      What part of Air France don't you understand?

      (No offense intended, it was just too easy...)

    12. Re:We call this the linux philosophy by Vlad_the_Inhaler · · Score: 2, Informative

      I have flown with Air Hawaii. Twice. There and back. Never again.

      • The flight was massively overbooked.
      • The stewardesses mostly looked like they were moonlighting from their day jobs as Sumo wrestlers (if the flight is totally full, that can be a real problem).
      • The air conditioning leaked water onto the passengers.
      • The large cockroach marching along the ceiling was . . . use your imagination

      This was not long after the roof came off of one of their 737s, back in the mid '80s. They may have improved since but enough is enough.

      Let's stray back on-topic. I bought a laptop 18 months ago. Format, re-install, dual-boot XP/Linux. I left a hell of a lot of the bloatware off when reinstalling.
      Reinstalling XP (or Vista, I imagine) is easy - even from a recovery CD. Why pay $30 to get someone else to do it?

      Norton Anti-Virus was the toughest one. The licence was free for one year. Buying another scanner when I had one for free (for 12 months) was a real decision.

      --
      Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
    13. Re:We call this the linux philosophy by clodney · · Score: 4, Informative

      I used to feel that the same way, but the last time I looked at building a basic box for a family member I found that I basically couldn't beat Dell's prices - maybe $50, but not enough to compensate for the extra effort of buying pieces and assembling them.

      At the high end I think you are correct, if only because I can cut back on expensive components I don't care about.

      But given the economies of scale that the big operators have, it is hard to beat them significantly on price.

    14. Re:We call this the linux philosophy by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2, Informative

      This seems to be a common myth that people believe - in Airbus aircraft the pilots have the final say, not the computer. Up to that point they have more assistance from the flight computers in a lot of areas (alpha floor protection et al) but if a pilot wants to do something stupid then he can.

      Theres no limit in an Airbus aircraft to the pilots level of control. The belief that the computer has more of a say is nothing more than a myth perpetrated by people that don't understand what they are saying.

  2. Not sure how I feel about this... by Asmor · · Score: 4, Insightful

    On the one hand, I think this is a sleazy practice and I'll be happy to see it go.

    On the other hand, it's simple enough for someone who knows what they're doing to just reformat the computer with a fresh install of their OS of choice, so the discount you get on your PC for it is pretty nice.

    I suspect that if this practice does die out, it'll mean the big guys are on slightly less uneven footing with the little mom & pop PC shops, so I guess that's always a good thing.

    1. Re:Not sure how I feel about this... by drachenstern · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Speaking of Mom and Pops, I for one welcome this change (no memes intended).

      I'm getting tired of having my mom and dad (not to mention the other umpteen dozens of people in my life who are in the same boat) call and ask what program xyz does, when I don't have their computer, have never heard of xyz, and can only make broad guesses as to the purpose of the program based on the name. I mean, sure, most are genuinely helpful, but it's not like computers come with big thick welcome guides anymore like they used to.

      Anything that helps make life easier for my mom or dad when they get a new computer helps make my life easier as a side effect, and I'm okay with that. Plus, it helps us to figure out what's supposed to be there when we come over and work on their computers. Hopefully it will also be the end of my sister-in-laws complaining that their free game that came with their computer just closed on them and won't re-open... This always leads me to have this fun and exciting conversation

      "Did you read the screen or did you just call me instead? ...
      Uh huh, now read me what it says ...
      Uh huh, so when it says you've played for an hour and you should now purchase the game, what does that mean to you? ...
      Well I would guess that it was a free trial, to get you hooked, so that you will give them money. I would suggest that you get up and walk away from the computer though, as you'll need to come up for air instead of playing [the same bakery game with lots of different skins so it looks like a dog salon or whatever] ...
      No, I don't know where to get the full version for free ...
      No, I won't just 'make it work', you'll have to pay the $$$ ...
      Okay, well I'm at work, bye!"

      --
      2^3 * 31 * 647
    2. Re:Not sure how I feel about this... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      On the other hand, it's simple enough for someone who knows what they're doing to just reformat the computer with a fresh install of their OS of choice, so the discount you get on your PC for it is pretty nice.

      Oh? How's that? I buy a laptop for business use. I am keenly interested in keeping on the safe side of licensing because I don't want the BSA jackboots on my back. I haven't bought a boxed copy of Windows so do not have an installer disk. The OEM media restores my drive to the same state as when I first brought it home.

      I'm an IT guy and totally happy with do-it-yourself; I'm typing this on a system I built from Newegg parts. Still, it's not at all obvious to me how I'd clean up that laptop without involving The Pirate Bay or shelling out for official installation disks.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    3. Re:Not sure how I feel about this... by Scoth · · Score: 4, Informative

      This isn't always true. My fiancee got a laptop a year or so ago that came with no discs whatsoever. It gave you the option of burning restore discs, which included all the bloatware. There was no way, short of buying a retail copy of Vista or going pirate, to reformat/install without the bloatware. Fortunately most of it uninstalled fairly cleanly, but "just format and reinstall!!" isn't always an option.

    4. Re:Not sure how I feel about this... by LunaticTippy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That is only true for really high-end machines. For a commodity desktop you can often save hundreds by going with an older model HP, Dell, or whatever. Just make sure you wipe it first.

      Wait a minute, that's what this entire article is about!

      I have had enough trouble getting warranty support for DOA mobos, processors, power supplies, etc. that I generally don't bother building machines anymore.

      For most people, it works best and costs least to buy a $300 closeout special from microcenter and if it doesn't work you can walk it back to the store.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    5. Re:Not sure how I feel about this... by LunaticTippy · · Score: 3, Informative

      I call shenanigans. An IT guy that has never heard of the PC Decrapifier

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    6. Re:Not sure how I feel about this... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 3, Informative

      I do Unix. I bought the laptop to run Quickbooks and some industry-specific applications. I appreciate the link, but the point was that you don't have to be a complete babe in the woods to have these sorts of problems.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    7. Re:Not sure how I feel about this... by nelsonal · · Score: 3, Funny

      Wouldn't that be a compliment 'round these parts?

      --
      Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
    8. Re:Not sure how I feel about this... by LunaticTippy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you like having a trial version of norton that stops updating after 30 days you are an idiot. That is the opposite of security and should be illegal.

      You can select what gets removed. If you like the google toolbar, go ahead and clear that checkbox. Wordperfect? I don't see that on the list. If you are talking about the trial version of Microsoft Office that stops working after 30 days, again: Only a retard wants that.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    9. Re:Not sure how I feel about this... by raynet · · Score: 2, Informative

      Companies buy a volume license version of Windows that gives you permission to make copies of the installation media for N number of machines. The fact that you might have license for Windows does not give you permission to download an image for it from the net. Local copyright law might give you that right but YMMV. Also OEM Windows serials wont work on vanilla Windows CDs. You do have (usually) the right to make couple backup copies of the installation media.

      --
      - Raynet --> .
    10. Re:Not sure how I feel about this... by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 4, Funny

      I conditionally accept your call of shenanigans on my shenanigans on his shenanigans as it was unclear whether we were restricted to the almost impossible task of a clean windows install, however I must retain my call of shenanigans on his shenanigans for that more narrow case. I also reserve the right to reinstate my full call of shenanigans on his shenanigans in the future, if such a time comes to pass that React OS manages to finish their open source reimplementation of windows XP, allowing one to compile a windows compatible operating system from scratch.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    11. Re:Not sure how I feel about this... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Funny

      My mom was the sysadmin for the world's second installation of a Xerox Star system (the first commercial WIMP desktop). She can do her own BSD upgrades.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  3. Your failed business model is not my problem by spun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The phrase 'Adapt or die' applies to corporations, too. The fact that people will pay $30 to have this crap removed should be telling you something.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:Your failed business model is not my problem by Arc+the+Daft · · Score: 2, Interesting

      People who know why probably aren't buying PC's from box retailers. Really this is just an example of retailers capitalizing on the lack of consumer computing knowledge.

    2. Re:Your failed business model is not my problem by sconeu · · Score: 5, Funny

      The phrase 'Adapt or die' applies to corporations, too.

      Actually, it's "Adapt or get legislation passed protecting your business model", but thank you for playing.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    3. Re:Your failed business model is not my problem by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, it isn't appalling at all. Best Buy didn't put the crapware on, why should they take it off for free?

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    4. Re:Your failed business model is not my problem by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's a ridiculous stance. By that stance, every retailer is responsible for every defect in the manufacturer's product, no matter what it may be. If I buy a new microwave from Wal-Mart, and it's nicked? Their fault!

      This obviously isn't the case. It's what we have warranties for. If the product is faulty, that's a beef you need to take up with the manufacturer, not the retailer. If you want the retailer to fix the manufacturer's screw-up, there's no reasonable cause for it to be free. It wasn't the retailer who fucked it up, he shouldn't have to fix it gratis. If you want it fixed gratis, take it to the manufacturer.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
  4. Advertising by Sta7ic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The bloatware construes more advertising & product placement (literally, oddly) than a constructive service. This sounds a lot like getting a TiVo or the like in order to scrub commercials out of your favorite shows.

    Do that many people really sign up for the full versions of the software that comes on their computers?

  5. Simple solution by 77Punker · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Maybe the computers these days are too cheap. If you're not making enough money and this software is pissing people off, just remove the software and raise the price. It's not like most people are going to start building their own computers.

    Remove the crappy software, raise the price, and sell the computer as a "premium" edition. People aren't going to stop buying computers.

    1. Re:Simple solution by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually a big part of the problem is that Windows is to expensive.
      The reason that a Linux PC costs about the same as a Windows PC is that the manufactures make enough money of the caplets to pay for Windows.
      Maybe all PCs should be sold naked and then you have to buy what ever OS you want.
      BTW most serves I see are sold that way.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  6. Sell PCs for the right bloody price then! by Peter+Cooper · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The current policy is extortion on non-savvy users. It's like a car dealership filling your new car with trash and charging you to take it out again!

    Drop the gimmicks, and get into selling PCs as a business. Get the markup right, make a profit, and compete. If people WANT to buy computers that are $30 cheaper and full of crap, that's their decision. Don't regulate it either way - do what the market can stand.

  7. Even footing by Lilith's+Heart-shape · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I suspect that if this practice does die out, it'll mean the big guys are on slightly less uneven footing with the little mom & pop PC shops, so I guess that's always a good thing.

    I think we've also hit on one of the reasons Apple computers cost more than similar machines from Dell, HP, Lenovo, et al: Apple doesn't load down their Macs with a lot of third-party bloatware.

  8. A company should never *use* its customers by erroneus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is abusive for a company to take advantage of their otherwise simple business relationships with their customers.

    When a company uses a customer's business relationship to gain even more money by selling that customer's information, by loaded unwanted software (that invariably kills the machine's performance), by inserting ads, or even subscribing them to mailing lists of "their partners," it all amounts to abuse of the business relationship outside of the desired results expected by the customer.

    Any time a company annoys a customer, they risk losing that customer. Just because "everyone does it" is no excuse for doing so. Even my preferred vendors do this and while I have learned to live with it by not even powering on the computer in its default configuration in most cases, instead installing the OS from scratch, it is a lot of work that should be needless.

    To be clear, the current culture of using or leveraging customers to make additional profits is bad for core business.

  9. PC decrapifyer by flyingfsck · · Score: 2, Informative

    So they charge $30 to run PC Decrapifyer? http://pcdecrapifier.com/

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  10. "more expensive" != "overpriced" by argent · · Score: 2, Informative

    Mac's aren't "overpriced". Macs do cost more, but OS X is worth more than Windows Vista (if you don't agree, don't get a Mac, sheesh).

    And a $30 change in the cost of a PC isn't going to make much difference.

    1. Re:"more expensive" != "overpriced" by Ash-Fox · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I consider Macs to be well worth their price, I'm typing this on a $3000 Macbook Pro. :) $30 is what Best Buy charges to remove the bloatware, who knows the actual amount OEM's receive from these companies per PC. It could be significantly higher than $30.

      I find Macs more expensive, hell, just look at my current laptop:

      My HP DV6000 widescreen laptop which came with 2GB RAM, built in webcam, nvidia graphics card with 512MB dedicated RAM with all the essentials including wireless, bluetooth. Has HDMI, a built in SD card reader, remote control. It came with Vista, but I installed Kubuntu (A OS I currently prefer to Vista and OS X for workstation purposes at the moment) on it (which worked out of the box with it).

      I bought this from Comet store for £399, and guess what... That is the cheapest price I can pay for a Mac, and a Mac Mini (I would provide a direct link, but Apple's store links expire) costs £399.

      The only 'advantage' the Mac Mini has over this laptop is that it has a 1.83GHz processor, while this laptop has a 1.66GHz processor. But - this machine has been the best gaming and work machine I've ever had, I doubt the Mac mini would live up to that with just a tiny bit faster processor, it doesn't even have a decent graphic card with dedicated RAM.

      Macs are certainly affordable now, but you seriously cannot tell me Macs are cheaper.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  11. Preloaded software is a huge advantage ... by Skapare · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ... to people still stuck with dialup speed access (to the internet or a BBS) or who need to have media mailed to them. Of course the reality today is that those with broadband access no longer need to have everything preloaded. The vendors adopted that model back when it was helpful to consumers. But like most big corporations, they are now stuck on something that no longer makes any sense.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  12. Re: g-limits by icebrain · · Score: 3, Informative

    Certification standards require that all such aircraft be able to withstand 150% of the highest allowable g-limit without structural failure. This is true for both Boeing and Airbus aircraft--and neither manufacturer is going to significantly overbuild their aircraft, because that adds weight. In fact, if tests show the structure is stronger than that, they will remove some to save weight.

    And a properly-designed fly-by-wire system doesn't "trump pilot judgment." It puts in g-limits (so you don't rip the wings off) and an alpha limiter (so you don't stall the airplane; incidentally, this makes windshear recovery easier since you can just haul back on the stick). Almost any situation where you would possibly need to overstress the aircraft, or would get into a stall, is likely the result of poor judgment on the pilot's part.

    I can think of only two incidents off the top of my head where aircraft crashed due to FBW-related problems... the aforementioned Airbus, and the recent B-2 crash.

    I'm and engineer working on a fly-by-wire program, and a private pilot, fwiw.

    --
    The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
  13. bloatware on the Mac by falconwolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're right in that I'm willing to sacrifice convenience for freedom, but I don't pay to have bloatware removed. I'm a Mac user.

    What, you didn't get any bloatware installed on your Mac? I'm typing this on my Macbook Pro, and while I wouldn't exactly call all of them bloatware there are a number of programs installed I don't want. The first, which is bloatware, is MS Office 2004 for Mac Test Drive. Most of the iApps I don't use either, though I admit many others do. Aperture is there along with GarageBand. I might of tried Aperture, I'm a photographer, but I'm afraid it's trialware. But I don't work with music so GarageBand isn't something I need.

    Falcon