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China Sets Sights On Rail Record
An anonymous reader writes "China is aiming to produce the world's fastest operating conventional train for its new high speed rail link between Shanghai and Beijing, achieving speeds up to 380 km/h and cutting the travel time between the two cities from the current ten hours to under five. The new rail link is scheduled to be completed within four years. Meanwhile, the Ministry of Railways' Deputy Chief Engineer has announced that China will be able to manufacture the new trains within two years."
Agreed. And the question in the discussion is: where's the appropriate middle ground?
I'm betting the Chinese aren't doing an environmental impact study. And if your current residence is where the tracks are going to be, then you just got displaced and good luck finding someone to complain to, much less someone to sue. i.e. We cant build stuff like this at all because of civil rights and they can build stuff like this all too easily because of a lack of civil rights.
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> The trains will be powered by the bodies of dead slave laborers ....
USAtoday says:
North America's four major rail networks -- Norfolk Southern, CSX, Union Pacific and Canadian National -- all own lines that were built and operated with slave labor.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/general/2002/02/21/slave-railroads.htm
That's because nobody lives there. And because NASA somehow managed to put most of it's facilities in places where no one in their right minds would have ever put human habitation (I'm looking at YOU - Lyndon Baines Johnson Manned Spaceflight Facility - located in some godawful pestilant swamp south of Houston).
Just try to put a launch facility somewhere else in the US.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
People make the mistake of thinking of the environmental crowd as just the hot earthers but there are many subgroups with different motives and methods. They run the gamut from Sierra Club and other conservation groups, to the odd preservation groups who want to create some natural snow globe with nothing ever changes, to groups like Greenpeace, ELF, and ALF. Any one of these groups can file a lawsuit.
Also, it's not just building the tracks, it's also building the power substations if its an electric train (although a super fast steam engine might be cool), the train stations, and all the other supporting infrastructure. A lawsuit for environmental reasons can be brought against any piece of the infrastructure.
People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
The Acela express covers 734 km (456 mi) from Washington DC - New York - Boston, and runs up to 240 kph (150 mph) on the Boston-NY leg.
Travel times (including stops) -
Boston-NY: 3.5 hours
NY-DC: 2.75 hours
It isn't stuck, it will be on your november CA ballot as Prop 1/1A
There is already one of these in operation between Beijing and Tianjin, operating at a top-speed of 350 km/h, which is apparently already a record.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing-Tianjin_high-speed_rail
Amtrak may not be (but how could they, with the derision with which Congress tends to treat them, and their budgets?), but see, for instance:
http://www.sehsr.org/
http://www.midwesthsr.org/
http://www.thsrtc.com/
http://www.cahighspeedrail.ca.gov/
They said conventional rail, so one with wheels and tracks. The maglev is faster (431km/h), and pretty cool to ride, but its just floating with no wheels or any contact with the monorail.
True, when we spend less than perhaps 5% as much on rail infrastructure as we do on highways, it stands to reason that the roads may win in some instances.
But rail is far more cost-effective to build than roads - one pair of tracks can carry the same traffic as a 6-8 lane highway, which is far more costly to construct and maintain, and requires much more land. (Not to mention all the parking lots and feeder roads.)
Trains can also run much faster (nobody is talking about people driving 100-200mph, and trains can run full speed even during commute hours when highways are slowed to a standstill). Trains use much less energy (less rolling resistance and aerodynamic resistance, for starters), emit far less pollution (using less energy, and often electrically powered), cost less to operate and maintain, and are far safer.
The only thing they lack is door-to-door convenience and arbitrary schedules. (But is there really much benefit if you're stuck in traffic and have to pay $20 for parking? On the other hand, how about letting you read or do work or sleep while on the train?) How much are we willing to pay, in dollars, pollution, wasted time, and reliance on foreign oil, for that (sometimes) convenience?
Trains also have similar benefits over airplanes for relatively short trips (anything less than about 2-4 hours, depending on the situation).
Of course, these are all THEORETICAL benefits, which are only realized if we actually make the proper investments. Since we in the USA have spent the last 75 years trying to kill trains rather than investing in them, we only rarely get to experience these benefits.
The trains we have these days are generally slow, go to only a few places, run on very limited schedules, are not particularly clean or comfortable, and have few on-board ameneties. And since they don't benefit from the same level of taxpayer support as roads do, more of their costs are passed on to the passenger, so they don't seem to have as much cost advantage to the end user.
I never said we shouldn't do it. Today must be mindless cynic day. I find it very cynical of you to interpret what I said as cynicism. I was merely pointing out the challenges involved in such attempting such an endeavor in the US. In response to the original posters question. Your rah-rah let's get'er donnnne bullshit didn't answer the question or propose solutions to the problem. I refer you to my more complete response to mindless cynics on this topic. http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=950063&cid=24834101
People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
574km/h
Look at this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir_n3J5ABA
In France, where still hasn't been a single fatal accident with high speed trains, on high speed tracks. (The TGV has been involved in fatal accidents, but that has been while running on regular tracks, at regular speeds.)
Germany on the other hand had one nasty accident when they took a shortcut to passenger comfort without properly testing the solution first. (They put some extra rubber and steel on the wheels to reduce vibrations, but it came off derailing half the train)
What is the average cargo rate on rail? I've found mention of a rate around $1300 to $1500 per standard shipping container, but I can't find anything more than that. There are certainly cases where I'd like to be able to take my car across the country, and even a shipping cost of $400 or so might be worth it, but I'm thinking that the cost would have to be more than that.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
The truth is that they're operating below capacity as it is
Common misconception, I'm afraid.
Look, there's capacity and there's capacity. Refineries used to be shut down periodically for scheduled maintenance on the cracker and other critical equipment. There's a reason for that.
Problem is, we are short on capacity (we still haven't recovered all that was lost in Katrina) and the existing plants are being run hard, 24/7/365 in many cases, with little or no time for maintenance downturns. Canadian refineries haven't succumbed to that pressure yet, so they still shut down each year for a few weeks so they can take their time doing proper repairs.
So technically you're correct, but in practice we're pushing it. Really pushing it. Sooner or later there's going to be some serious EPA paperwork being filled out.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
One of the big shocks of going to China is just how fast the population drops off at the edge of a city. Regardless of the occasional news bite about China's elite, there aren't any exoburbs or suburbs in practice. Even with the world's largest population, China has the kind of empty space the United States hasn't seen in ages.
Besides, China needs this kind of rail a hell of a lot more than the United States. Between the New Year and having to go to your hometown for official business (it's damn hard to change your official municipality of residence), trains in the PRC are up to their gills.
China can do this crap because they make a trillion a year surplus
... the problem is the we've got our economy and financial systems tied very closely with theirs. When they go, we go.
That, of course, won't last forever either. They're heading for one Biblical-sized crash. Now that's to be expected, after a thirty-year boom
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Yes, search "EuroTunnel". It's not a normal car-train though, the carriages are very wide and don't travel further than the special stations at either end of the tunnel (Folkstone and Calais). Also, you stay with your vehicle, either sitting inside or you can get out and stand in the carriage. It's about 35 minutes in total, IIRC, which is much less than the car ferry. There are spaces for coaches, but lorries (trucks) have their own train.
Normal car-trains are essentially the same equipment as used to move brand new cars around, but with a passenger coach on the end. There aren't any in the UK (small country), but they are much more popular in the rest of Europe.
I wonder why the BBC article fails to mention the TGV, but instead presents the slower german ICE and japanese Shinkansen trains as the 2 currently "fastest" trains.
Well, in terms of operating speed, the ICE is not slower than the TGV. The German variant (ICE3) reaches 320km/h like the TGV, Spanish (Velaro E) and Chinese (CRH3) variants of the ICE3 are designed for 350km/h (and, in the case of China, are operating at 350km/h since the Olympics).
The record on rail, 574 km/h, belongs to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_world_speed_record#Record_of_2007 . Maglevs go faster but compete in a different category :)
However, the fastest the TGV can go in commercial operation is around 320 km/h, so the Chinese train will top it by some 40 km/h. Kudos to the engineers!
Hello! I'm a disaster waiting to happen!
Chicago has rail in the highway medians. The stations are in the air over a narrow platform. They connect to overpasses. Branches could be in the same place as highway interchanges, and either the highway would need to be elevated briefly. If you put the tracks on the side of the road, leaving a large gap, you have to widen your overpasses a lot. Lots of concrete also prevents accidents.
Simon's Rock College
China already has at several high speed rail lines, so its nothing too new(some are already faster than the commercial ones in Europe), this one is just planned to be faster, also from the Shanghai Pudong airport they have a maglev train(the only commercial one in the world I believe), that was going to be the train between Shanghai and Bejing, but just the power needed was massive, lets not get started on how much the rest of it would cost. "What is more useful is the fastest maximum operating speed (MOR) of ANY segment of any high speed rail line, currently 350 km/h (217 mph), a record held by China." PS I'm not Chinese! :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail
Somehow I don't see UAV's and IED-proof light armored vehicles benefiting mankind as a whole.
UAVs are being used to track bushfires in California
Cars on an interstate highway can clime a MUCH steeper grade than any conventional train, even a high-speed train with all axles powered. It can also turn sharper corners. So, in MOST areas, particularly out west, following the exact run of the highway is impracticable.
Our current economic situation has EVERYTHING to do with Iraq. Do you even realize how much it is costing us? Do you even know where the money is going?
Heck, that measly 9 Billion in cash that was mysteriously "misplaced" in Iraq last year would sure as hell do this part of my state a lot of good. And that is only a veritable drop in the bucket.
Saying that the Iraq military action is not negatively affecting our economy is simply false. I agree with you about the patent and school systems... but if you want to fix those, right now you would have to talk to the same people who are responsible for Iraq... and the patent situation, and the schools.
There are 21 stops along the Beijing - Shanghai line, over 10 of the stops running through a city with population over 1,000,000. By 2012 it is expected to carry 1000-1200 passengers on each train. There should be over 100 trains departing daily. During peak hour, as often as 3 minutes per train will leave the station. Annual capacity one way will likely reach 80mil each year. Estimated ticket price is under US$100. Whole trip will take more than 5 hours.
The current environmental issue is the chronic sufferings of the Homo Sapiens within the train. The train system in use is now running 4 times above the average capacity.
There aren't any in the UK (small country), but they are much more popular in the rest of Europe.
They are very common in Switzerland, which is a much smaller country, but for different reasons.
A lot of mountain passes are open for cars maybe 4 to 5 month a year and closed due to snow and weather conditions for the rest of the year.
Loading your car on a train may be the only way to get from one place to another by car.
In other cases it may significantly reduce the time required to get to your destination by car.
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