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Computer Textbooks For High Schoolers?

wetdogjp writes "I recently became a high school teacher, and I've inherited three classes with no textbooks! While two of my classes are introductory in nature, one for computers in general and the other for networking, the third class should prepare juniors and seniors to enter the workforce and start a career in computers. We have some older textbooks by Heathkit available, but the newest of them are four years old. Do Slashdotters have any favorite textbooks that can help kids on their way to becoming junior sysadmins, programmers, networking professionals, etc.? Would you suggest books to prepare students to take certification tests such as A+, Network+, or others? Any textbooks we use would need to cover quite a breadth of material, such as PC hardware, operating systems, networking, security, and more."

361 comments

  1. paper is overrated by Brain+Damaged+Bogan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The internet has all the information they need to know. Just teach them how to search effectively for the information they want.

    --
    -- Sex is the antonym of pringles. Once you pop it's time to stop.
    1. Re:paper is overrated by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It has a problem with presenting facts in an orderly manner and often won't elaborate on some of the more advanced topics.

    2. Re:paper is overrated by beakerMeep · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Ok. You win the sweeping generalization of the day award.

      (dont take that too personally, we've all won that at one time or another)

      Personally, I think books are great. They can provide in-depth look at a focused topic. The internet, on the other hand, is (generally) more of a mass collection of tidbits of information. Both have their usage.

      I also am a big fan of unchaining from the desk. It's good for your health, your eyes, and your sanity. And I find it easier to lug a book around on the subway then trying to connect to the unavailable internet on a lap heater.

      YMMV

      As to the topic though, I am not sure how useful it is to learn computers in high school. I would hope there would be more of a college prep approach. However, I am not such a blind idealist that I believe every student will be going to college. Still, the question seems a bit idealist itself -- to think a single class in computers at the high school level would prepare a student to enter a professional workforce seems a stretch. But I may be over-analyzing it.

      --
      meep
    3. Re:paper is overrated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      'search effectively'... for you as a teacher that's the 'book' you need.

      Printed textbooks aren't a device for 'learning', they are a device for you to benchmark and evaluate student progress against (unfortunately this doesn't usually relate to real-world requirements) ... learning is about discovery... and the web rightly or wrongly is the most open form of discovery available â" you just have to work out what the 'fit' is in the classroom environment.

      BTW most kids out of school we employ (20+ a year) get training in the task we want them to do. Smart Asses who 'know how to do stuff' usually have a career lifespan of a week. Those who 'want to do stuff' last a lifetime. I know this cause I got employed out of school 20 years ago and I'm now the boss... and I love my job.

         

    4. Re:paper is overrated by Nymz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It has a problem with presenting facts in an orderly manner and often won't elaborate on some of the more advanced topics.

      Without dismissing your points, I don't think they outweigh the value of the parent poster's suggestion. What good is a perfected worded book that is four or more years old, and irrelevant compared to internet resources, as the summary informs?

      I'm glad this summary was posted as News, and not AskSlashdot, because discussing the root of the challenge is much more interesting, than 1000s of people suggesting any particular book they've read themselves.

    5. Re:paper is overrated by Brain+Damaged+Bogan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can see your point, but I can't actually remember when I last broke the spine of a non-fictional book to glean some information. In the real world the computing students will be much better off learning HOW to find the information they need that being handed a book filled with information, most of which is probably not even relevant to the tasks they'll be given.

      --
      -- Sex is the antonym of pringles. Once you pop it's time to stop.
    6. Re:paper is overrated by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What good is a perfected worded book that is four or more years old, and irrelevant compared to internet resources, as the summary informs?

      Maybe we need an IT-wiki-ebook.

    7. Re:paper is overrated by Enleth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And I can remember that just fine, as it was last Friday. So what?

      If it works for you, great, but don't assume it does for everyone.

      --
      This is Slashdot. Common sense is futile. You will be modded down.
    8. Re:paper is overrated by Nymz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Maybe we need an IT-wiki-ebook.

      Make it the class project! ;-)

    9. Re:paper is overrated by spotmonk · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The internet has all the information they need to know. Just teach them how to search effectively for the information they want.

      I almost agree with this. With such a wide range of topics that a textbook would need to cover, it would almost make more sense to break your semester or whatever into the topics you need to cover, then find a reputable website that will teach the topic as detailed as you would like. If it's not as detailed as you would like, find another website to support it. It's a lot cheaper than finding multiple textbooks that explain everything you want in what detail you want. Also, it's a lot easier to find websites that are up to date with changing hardware/software/security practices than textbooks.

      Someone mentioned making a wiki textbook, and someone else mentioned making that a class project. I had a math class in which we had to all find our own individual web page about functions and then read all the others. I thought it was completely useless in math, but in the everchanging world of technology it makes a lot of sense to just collect a lot of information and sort through what is useful.

      Your first year teaching the class might not learn as much as they might from brand new textbooks, but your fourth year will learn more than they would from four year old textbooks. And maybe by that point more than they would from new textbooks. Especially if the class is designed to prepare them for some sort of job market, the instruction in the class would have to be as changing as the demand of the market.

    10. Re:paper is overrated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod this up to +10, this is so true.

    11. Re:paper is overrated by thermian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I can see your point, but I can't actually remember when I last broke the spine of a non-fictional book to glean some information. In the real world the computing students will be much better off learning HOW to find the information they need that being handed a book filled with information, most of which is probably not even relevant to the tasks they'll be given.

      This demonstrates the common misconception that the internet is full of useful and accurate information.

      Textbooks have one major advantage over web pages. They have been through an editorial process. I know sites like Wikipedia do as well, but since one of their 'professors' turned out not even to have an undergrad degree, and they are all anonymous, that leaves a lot to be desired on the authenticity front.

      Wikipedia's version of peer review is equally suspect. Peer review without identification of peers to the author is ok, but when the identity of the author whose work is being reviewed is also hidden, and the peer reviewers have no need to account for their suitability to act as reviewers the process becomes little more than a parody of the true process.

      Its also my experience that a great deal of information on the web is copied from what people have read in books anyway.

      Some sites, like IBM, Sun, Microsoft and other companies with a vested interested in programming do provide useful online resources, but they also produce books.

      I reject utterly the argument that computing books are out of date the moment they are printed. I have textbooks dating back ten years which still contain information I use often. Just because some small aspects of a subject may change does not invalidate all previous information on the subject.

      This is especially true of books which seek to teach the basics of programming. You could pick up a book produced a few years ago, use that exclusively for months, and come out of the other end with a sufficient understanding of the fundamentals to grasp any recent changes it didn't cover. Such books tend to cover such fundamentals that they don't go out of date too fast. If your language of choice wasn't one being used as a marketplace lever (Java and C# for example), this is even more likely to be the case.

      I personally use a mix of online and printed word resources. Only rarely do I stray from sites where the author is identified by name, I prefer to take my information from resources where the author has at least felt enough responsibility for their work to take credit for it.

      --
      A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
    12. Re:paper is overrated by oldhack · · Score: 0, Troll

      You can search the internet with Google. Shut down the school and save the money.

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    13. Re:paper is overrated by masikh · · Score: 1

      On the internet there are these courses, e.g. RCNE Redhat Certified Network Engineer. These got some nice textbooks. Besides that, on slashdot there are many discussions about free textbooks for schools regardless the subject thus take a look at that!

    14. Re:paper is overrated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That reminds me. Time-life did a series on computers. A bit dated but it did provide a lot of the basic in an understandable form. This one's a bit more current and comes in a series "How the Internet works", etec, etc.

    15. Re:paper is overrated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The internet has all the information they need to know. Just teach them how to search effectively for the information they want.

      Libraries also used to do so. Learning to search in library is not a substitute for university study or general education, for that matter.

      People seem to consider searching on the Internet as a replacement for quality training, which is not.

    16. Re:paper is overrated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do Slashdotters have any favorite textbooks that can help kids on their way to becoming junior sysadmins, programmers, networking professionals, etc.?

      Why are high school students being trained to be junior sysadmins, programmers, networking professionals? Teach the students to think, problem solve, and communicate verbally and especially in writing. It is difficult enough for IT professionals to find meaningful, gainful employment in IT these days. Are these students willing to compete with outsourced labour in India?

    17. Re:paper is overrated by belgian_embedded_ · · Score: 1

      Well, we did, and it works great! For various courses (Linux, networking, etc.~ Prof. Bachelor ICT) we get to pick a subject like 'setup a IMAP server' and documant it on TRAC. This way student can work at home; work at moment they choose. Great system!

    18. Re:paper is overrated by Ngarrang · · Score: 0, Troll

      "Textbooks have one major advantage over web pages. They have been through an editorial process."

      And that editorial process is not always perfect and can itself introduce flaws based on current-day fads, political correctness and hidden agendas. AND, many of those text books are simply meant to prop up the additional incomes of the people who wrote them FOR THEIR OWN CLASS. I had many text books in college that weren't even used, but the professor "required", that he had conveniently written.

      So, no, I believe your faith in professional publications is hopelessly optimistic at best, and naive at its worst.

      --
      Bearded Dragon
    19. Re:paper is overrated by halcyon1234 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Maybe we need an IT-wiki-ebook.

      Make it the class project! ;-)

      I was going to suggest the same thing. Even if you can't get webspace from your school's IT department, it'd be a trivial matter to set up a LAMP computer on your classroom's LAN and install MediaWiki on it-- or shell out ~$50 and get yourself a economy hosted website somewhere that offers a LAMP stack.

      Then put up a skeleton structure for the course. Add some pages about what the course is, the curriculum and goals, time line, etc.

      As each lesson comes around (or even a few in advance) post your notes to the wiki. Encourage students to elaborate or expand upon the wiki in any positive way. That can be anything from adding some links to educational sites, to updating out-of-date information, to fixing spelling & grammar.

      Then, as a class project, break your class up into teams of 2-3 people. Assign each of them a course topic. Have them research the material, and for a deliverable, they need to create the wiki page for that topic. Give them some guidelines (must have 3 sources that will be [cited], must contain at least 3 useful links to other intra-wiki pages, etc). Maybe even have them present their findings. Future classes might have the same requirements, but instead must find 2 new facts about their topic that aren't currently in the wiki.

      Make sure you have a nice index page, set up the Random page, and the thing will build itself. It's something that each student will have had a hand in making. Limit editing to Registered Only, and make sure you approve accounts (or pre-generate them for your students). This will cut down on vandalism. It will also give you, the person who will be grading their work, a full snapshot of who did what work, as well as a complete revision history.

      At the end of the semester, not only will you have a really good completed project, but it will also be extremely useful for future classes. You effectively have all your notes created and kept in a presentable manner. You can even put it on a public-facing computer, and open it up for other classes or teachers (even those beyond your own school) to use. (You might want to limit it to a public read-only, until you are ready to release the entire project into the wild...)

    20. Re:paper is overrated by thermian · · Score: 1

      that editorial process is not always perfect and can itself introduce flaws based on current-day fads, political correctness and hidden agendas.

      Your comment begins with such a sweeping uninformed statement that any further point you make has lost all credibility.

      Which is a nice way of saying your statement is utter nonsense.

      --
      A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
    21. Re:paper is overrated by Ngarrang · · Score: 1

      Your comment begins with such a sweeping uninformed statement that any further point you make has lost all credibility.

      Which is a nice way of saying your statement is utter nonsense.

      Of course you would respond in that manner, why concede that your initial statement was also a sweeping generalization when you can stick to your guns, even when possibly wrong? Note that I did say it was 'not always perfect', which grammatically leaves open the possibility that sometimes, it is. Even statistically, there is a small chance of that perfection. Improbably, but not impossible.

      And for the record, I did in fact have college text books written by the professors that taught the class, that ended up not using the very book they required.

      --
      Bearded Dragon
    22. Re:paper is overrated by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Informative

      "What good is a perfected worded book that is four or more years old, and irrelevant compared to internet resources, as the summary informs?"

      Many books are old and irrelevant, some are timeless. Reading how to program (as opposed to how to code) will help make sense of what you find on the net. This isn't to say there are no good sources on the net but it's silly to ignore the classics.

      "I'm glad this summary was posted as News, and not AskSlashdot, because discussing the root of the challenge is much more interesting, than 1000s of people suggesting any particular book they've read themselves."

      The question itself is too broad, it's hard to tell if the aim is to teach a particular industry recognised skill, give a general introduction to computer science, create an army of code monkeys, create an army of admins,....

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    23. Re:paper is overrated by PainKilleR-CE · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even C# isn't bad if you're just learning to program. Early books on C# (some written while .Net was still in beta/RC stage) are still relevant for most of what people are going to do with the language. Anyone with no programming experience whatsoever will pick up plenty of useful information from even 6-year-old books on the language. Once they're competent with C# and .Net 1.x, they would simply need to learn the additions for 2.x and 3.x, if they were going to use those additions at all. There aren't a lot of changes to the core 1.x functionality, and it can all still be used against the .Net 1.x runtimes.

      What I've really found difficult with C# programming is the lack of really solid books on .Net itself, especially dealing with ASP.Net and ADO.Net. Basically once you're at the point of dealing with these parts of the framework (where things do tend to advance more quickly), you're left with scouring web resources for little nuggets of useful information in a sea of garbage.

      Of course, I still believe in learning programming by starting with a more static language like C or C++ that spends a lot more time in the standardization bodies before being updated. The usefulness in the workforce may be less clear, as people are hiring more web developers than systems developers, but it will give the students a good foundation from which to learn.

      Then again, schools seem to be moving more towards the focus of getting students into the workforce than life-long learning, even at the college level.

      --
      -PainKilleR-[CE]
    24. Re:paper is overrated by BotnetZombie · · Score: 1

      Take a look at wikigenes. Instead of having anonymous articles, every word is credited to its author. And they apparently use a rating system as well, with some kind of karma and upmods/downmods. The wiki doesn't have much coverage now - lots of medical stuff in there but not for e.g. CS. Anyway, the project looks very interesting IMO.

    25. Re:paper is overrated by Martin+Blank · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What good is a perfected worded book that is four or more years old, and irrelevant compared to internet resources, as the summary informs?

      For high school classes, printed books of that age are just fine. How much have Windows, Mac, and even Linux changed in the last four years? Not enough to wipe away the basics. Look at the established reference for TCP/IP: it's nearly 15 years old. If they're teaching programming, a four-year-old textbook would be new enough for the basics of C, C++, Java, PHP, Perl, HTML, and a long list of other languages.

      Relevance does not require the absolute latest version of everything, especially when preparing for the business world, where the version in use of a given program or language is often 3+ years old.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    26. Re:paper is overrated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, the K&R 'C' book is so terribly out of date.

      I just cracked open "Programming Perl", an eight year old edition, to look up something I use infrequently, and it still works the same as described in that ancient tome.

      I find it much easier to work from a book setting on the desk, while programming on the display. Not sure why, but it just the method that works best for me.

      Also, I prefer to NOT set at the computer in the evening when I am flipping through a book while relaxing with a beer after the kids have been sent off to bed for the night. Has anyone here had postive experience with ebooks? Or is it too much like reading from a laptop?

    27. Re:paper is overrated by SilverJets · · Score: 1

      What good is a perfected worded book that is four or more years old, and irrelevant compared to internet resources, as the summary informs?

      About as good as 4 year old (or older) information on the internet. Not everything on the web is up to date. And at the very least, a book has a slightly better chance at presenting the material in a logical order as well as providing some suggestions for further reading. Yes, there is a lot of information on the web but a huge portion of it is noise that has to be sifted through.

    28. Re:paper is overrated by SilverJets · · Score: 1

      And for the record, I did in fact have college text books written by the professors that taught the class, that ended up not using the very book they required.

      First thing you learn after completing your first year of college is that you don't need to buy all the books on the professor's list.

    29. Re:paper is overrated by Hyppy · · Score: 1

      Your statement offers nothing. It has no information, and no credibility. At least the GP offers something, yours is but a flame.

      Go back to trolling in Digg.

    30. Re:paper is overrated by SpiritGod21 · · Score: 1

      There are several universities in the United States that are considering this, not just for technology, but a variety of subjects. Preliminary studies seem to show that a student who participate in making their own textbook learn and retain more, and they enjoy the class more too.

    31. Re:paper is overrated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      {{Unreferenced}}

    32. Re:paper is overrated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just FYI: with a reference or two, your post would be very interesting (and would have been modded as such).

    33. Re:paper is overrated by forkazoo · · Score: 1

      Without dismissing your points, I don't think they outweigh the value of the parent poster's suggestion. What good is a perfected worded book that is four or more years old, and irrelevant compared to internet resources, as the summary informs?

      Depends on the subject of the book. Standard ISO C, Algorithms and Design Patterns, Computer Architecture, 68k/MIPS assembly, and Operating System Fundamentals are all subjects that would be served perfectly well by a 4 year old text. Direct3D is much more fluid than any of those things, and an ancient version is basically useless. However, they are all "Computer" texts. Does preparation for a career in computers mean Sys Admin, Programmer, or guy who works at Best Buy recommending video card upgrades?

      IMO, given the volatility of some types of information, and the fact that many of your kids who will be most interested in an advanced course will go to college and not apply anything you teach them on the job for another four years, finding a current text seems like you are just doing it wrong. Finding a timeless subject may prove vastly more valuable.

      (and, cue the xkcd "you are doing it wrong" strip about voting machines with antivirus... ) :)

    34. Re:paper is overrated by initdeep · · Score: 1

      Just for reference, my father is 59 years old and an avid reader of fiction books and owns over 2000 paperback and hardback books for entertainment.

      now having said that, my father has recently been forced to stop working and has found himself with a lot of time on his hands.

      I bought him the Sony eBook reader and downloaded a large number of books for him (most he already owned, but yes some he didn't).
      I showed him how to convert and load the "books" onto his reader and he has taken to it immediately and probably reads 2-3 hours a day.

      He's also found other places online to download other types of media to display on the reader.

      he's told me that he actually prefers the reader to the actual books for the type he likes to read (think robert jordan and terry brooks type) simply because they are lighter, and most importantly, he's always reading the page on the right, which seems more natural for most people.

      the only part he misses is the actual "feel" of the paper and most of that is just from past love of books.

      other than that, he loves the reader and actually buys books now mostly online if he can.

    35. Re:paper is overrated by hajihill · · Score: 1

      I apologize if this is mentioned below, but I have to get some work done today, though maybe not a ton.

      Why not try out using the collaboration features of Google Notebooks? It seems like a no-brainer to me. There is the issue of administrative control, I guess. With parents in America how they are today, they might expect better filtering of content then what this might offer, so it might not be an option.

      I agree that those classes that allow a certain degree of involvement in their very material do retain interest and develop a much more mature, meaningful discourse (based on my experience, anyway). And, I always respected those teachers more that put together our class materials, either out of photocopied articles, internet links, and various diverse sources. Of course, I was also in college, and working to cover the cost of my books, so my respect wasn't un-self-motivated, either; these are high school students.

      Also, this isn't to take away from the wiki-book idea. The result from that would be more lasting, and meaningful going forward, but maybe a month on notebooks would familiarize some kids with online collaboration. As if kids today aren't going to serve us (again) on this very topic in the next few years.

      Good luck! Innovative teaching is itself inspiring to young people.

      --
      Of blankness, I know nothing.
    36. Re:paper is overrated by wetdogjp · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've been having my students read these comments, and this one jumped out at them. They're pretty interested in creating a class wiki, so I think we'll give it a go. Thanks for the suggestion!

    37. Re:paper is overrated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The topic they cover must also be something that can be installed or configured or in some other way, require hands-on demonstration of that skill. This is absolutely essential for a system administrator at any level. What you learn on the web versus what you learn by doing is very much like theory versus practice:

      "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is."

    38. Re:paper is overrated by FlyingBishop · · Score: 1

      I've got a couple of of CS books I use frequently, but only because they're paper, and I like paper. Glancing back and forth between Wikipedia and my textbooks, the only discrepancies are because the books start out a year out of date.

      And Wikipedia tends to be a lot less dense, without a loss of content.

    39. Re:paper is overrated by Tuoqui · · Score: 1

      It is a very good plan... Release the resulting 'textbook' under the Creative Commons license and let other schools benefit from your work.

      Best way to teach the kids would be to have them all install Linux on a computer, set up their own webservers and put up a webpage and wiki in the classroom.

      --
      09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
      +2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
    40. Re:paper is overrated by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      I also am a big fan of unchaining from the desk.

      Laptop. Or an iPhone.

      I find it easier to lug a book around on the subway then trying to connect to the unavailable internet on a lap heater.

      The Internet is also cacheable. You're not going to get the entire thing, but chances are, there's some resource you can download and take with you. (Example: Screencasts. Easily several hours, and sometimes much more effective than a book -- though I usually prefer to have text available.)

      That, and the Internet is getting more available all the time.

      to think a single class in computers at the high school level would prepare a student to enter a professional workforce seems a stretch.

      Depends what kind of work.

      A programming job? No way. Best you can do is teach them how to use Google, and give them lists of your own favorite resources, then cut them loose.

      But what I would really love to see is something which teaches slightly-more-than-basic skills to people who need a computer to work, but whose job description doesn't really include "computers". From secretaries to stockbrokers, it would be extremely helpful if the average desk jockey knew enough that they didn't need a full-time IT department protecting them from themselves.

      Not that IT departments shouldn't exist, or shouldn't care about security. I just don't see why they should be protecting employees from themselves, when they could be spending that time dealing with real threats, the kind that couldn't have been prevented with a little common sense on the part of some airhead advertising exec.

      It's been mentioned that Google's approach to security -- that is, secure the network, and let the individual employee be responsible for their own security -- could only work at Google. I don't see why -- it's really not that fscking hard to be secure, even on Windows. With all the other crap they teach in high school -- does that secretary even need to know algebra? -- they could at least teach a bit more about computers than "This is a mouse" and "This is Microsoft Word".

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  2. what languages? by story645 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Dietel & Dietel publish a bunch of intro books (c++, java, a few others) that have a bunch of supplements/coding examples/etc. on their website. They're very newbie friendly and cover a good deal of information. Actually, so do some of the AP comp sci review books (my Baron's AP Java book has a lot of clear examples.)

    Look at other high schools and community colleges that teach the same thing you do and see what books they're using.

    Certification prep is a double edged sword. The books may be accessible, but they also may be too focused on the test and therefore teach to it rather than teach general skills.

    Also, you don't need to use a book for everything. All my intro programming books do a brief overview of hardware, and my profs add when needed. I didn't even have a textbook for my high school computer hardware class (basically a build your own computer thing, but we also learned about karnough maps, logic, and other basics.)

    --
    open source modern art: laser taggi
    1. Re:what languages? by dbcad7 · · Score: 1

      Not picking on you specifically.. but your at the top, and it is repeated again and again below.. The question was about.. Intro to computers, networking.. and job skills (office suites)... every one wants to jump past all this and teach programming for some reason... Now granted the average HS student today probably doesn't need "intro" courses for computers (maybe networking though).. but that is what was asked for... now let me ask you this.. does college level "intro to computers" teach c++ or java ??... nope, separate subject.

      --
      waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
    2. Re:what languages? by story645 · · Score: 1

      Um, from the orginal post:

      Do Slashdotters have any favorite textbooks that can help kids on their way to becoming junior sysadmins, programmers, networking professionals, etc.?

      I was just answering the part I know something about, having taken two programming and one hardware course in high school. Never touched networking, aside from the one I've got at home. Also, nothing in his post implies that the job skills course isn't basically a programming one.

      --
      open source modern art: laser taggi
    3. Re:what languages? by conlaw · · Score: 1
      Assuming that the parents won't get upset about the title, there are two all-in-one books in the "For Dummies" series: "Linux All-in-One Reference Book for Dummies," and "Laptops All-in-One Reference Book for Dummies." They each cost $29.99, but can probably be bought more cheaply through the school.

      The Laptops one probably includes information of Microsoft products and the Linux one has information on several different distros and includes several of them on an enclosed CD. Even though I've never used the Laptops book, I'm still inclined to think that either of these would work well to cover all of the topics you want to discuss and, if the students buy their books, would be a good reference book for their future use.

    4. Re:what languages? by smchris · · Score: 1

      I think you may right if he is talking terminal high school careers. What he is really looking for are materials to teach people to be receptionists and office assistants. That will be a competitive enough goal for a high school grad considering how many people with two and four-year liberal arts degrees are doing it with more advanced vocabulary, writing and people skills. Which is to say Office, Office and more Office. Intro to computers means how to get around Windows and networking is how to find your files, share them and print.

      If he is really talking about A+ and Net+, and we are probably talking one semester each, I guess an A+ or Net+ book with labs. I think Karnaugh diagrams would be a little crazy but somehow integrating logic at an informal level into how effective troubleshooting works would be so valuable. Where besides obtusely in geometry do kids get introduced to thinking logically in high school?

      In either case, it would be nice if there were a project the kids could put on their resume and talk about. Something they can _show_ in the case of office skills. And give the kids a detailed syllabus explicitly explaining that it can be cribbed to write their resume.

  3. Write your own by fyrewulff · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Do your job for once and write a curriculum like every homeschooling parent must do? Because your teacher's union has blocked the aftermarket sale price of all textbooks?

    My C++ teacher had a big book on C++, but all of his lessons were obviously custom written. He just used the book as a foundation.

    --
    "We need to get over this notion, that, for Apple to win... Microsoft must lose." - Steve Jobs, 1997
    1. Re:Write your own by rtb61 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, it makes much more sense to create a 'open' education program, where schools from around the globe and through the various levels, primary, high school and university create a series of open text books for 'free' use within the education system. Obviously students in university could gain credit for digital texts written and corroborated on for use in high school and primary school.

      Doesn't solve the current problem but certainly makes sense for the future and to ensure that acceptable standards are achieved and graded against. Custom written tends to produce wildly variable results with often archaic out of date content or even just totally wrong information, not much point getting it marked right if it is wrong. An easy start is to do what most students do and start with wikipedia and go from there (follow the links they are generally pretty good), just don't reference it ;).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    2. Re:Write your own by Count+Fenring · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unkind, uncalled for, and incorrect to boot.

      Seriously: A) Homeschooling - not a perfect solution to the INCREDIBLY complicated problem of getting kids educated. In many cases, not a good solution. And, fyi, public school teachers build curriculums. So do private school teachers.

      B) You kill your own argument by pointing out that "used the book as a foundation." He still used the book. He still needed the book. And why? Because a quality textbook is one of the most useful and powerful tools for both guided and self-directed learning. Because trying to learn anything without some sort of organized reference is maddeningly difficult. Because, I don't know, a teacher only has so much time with the kids, and they need more information than he can fit into one hour (maybe 1.5) per weekday.

      Your argument (such as it was) demolished, I turn to motivation. What the hell is wrong with you? You see a question about relative quality of textbooks, and think "OHMYGOD, A CHANCE TO BASH TEACHERS AND UNIONS AND PROMOTE HOMESCHOOLING BECAUSE I'M THE SECRET LIBERTARIAN GOD-PRINCE!!!1!"

      If you want to run an opinion blog, do so. But leave people who are trying to find ways to teach children better in peace, dude.

    3. Re:Write your own by Count+Fenring · · Score: 1

      Mod parent correct but unnecessarily harsh. I apologize for the venom, although I can't say it won't happen again.

    4. Re:Write your own by mrjb · · Score: 1

      The problem with writing your own book is that it takes time, and lots of it- months to years. Even if you know what you're talking about. But kdawson needs a book now.

      --
      Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
    5. Re:Write your own by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      You mean INCORRECT and unnecessarily harsh. You can be pissed all you want that homeschooling is more successful than public schools at giving kids a good education, but that doesn't change the fact that it regularly does so. You can also be pissed that someone suggest that teachers live up to their claims. If they are as good as they claim at educating, they should be able to write a decent text book. After all, according to most, they spend every night weekend and 3 months solid during the summer writing curriculum anyway.

    6. Re:Write your own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Seriously: A) Homeschooling - not a perfect solution to the INCREDIBLY complicated problem of getting kids educated."

      It is complicated but if I were to have kids, I would homeschool them myself. When I was in school, all school did was waste my time. I think the real problem is that education is forced, and kids should be responsible for teaching themselves, after they have the basics, and should be given some kind of chores/jobs to do in their communities. i.e. work part time, and then be self-directed (mostly) in their education.

      We are too afraid to let kids fail both in school and life.

    7. Re:Write your own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      For info, when I was doing instructional design work (writing Technical courses, including the presentation material, exercises, tests etc..), we based our timeframe on typically 8-10 days work/research per 1 day of class training.

      (Posting anon to preserve mod points)

    8. Re:Write your own by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      Wrong. It occasionally does so, when the parent is a gifted teacher. Most of the time, it produces a moron who can barely pass the GED. The vast majority of parents are not qualified to teach basic high school math, science, or writing much less advanced classes in any of those. Not surprising though, since the most common reason for homeschooling is the parent's xenophobia. It tends to go hand in hand with ignorance.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    9. Re:Write your own by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 4, Funny

      And, fyi, public school teachers build curriculums.

      And home-schooled kids learning Latin would know the plural of curriculum is curricula ;)

    10. Re:Write your own by mr_matticus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can be pissed all you want that homeschooling is more successful than public schools at giving kids a good education

      That's far from the truth.

      There are certainly many success stories from homeschooling, but consider the inputs: those kids are motivated students from generally affluent families whose parents are themselves sufficiently sophisticated to prepare a curriculum. There was never really any doubt about the success of their education. The benefit comes from individual attention and self-pacing, which isn't a benefit of homeschooling but rather of class sizes you and your crackpot instruction.

      For every "success", there's a sadly manipulated child as well as a total failure to go along with him. Saying that homeschooling is the answer is disingenuous at best. Few parents are sufficiently skilled or knowledgeable to complete an entire primary and secondary education.

      If they are as good as they claim at educating, they should be able to write a decent text book.

      Spoken like someone who truly fails to understand what a teacher is for. Educating isn't simply feeding data. Being able to write a textbook is an entirely different skill from being able to help students apply that information. You don't ask the race car driver to build the car. Even being an expert in a particular field does not mean you can write an effective textbook about it.

      Just look at all the professors who are brilliant theorists and scholars but terrible instructors.

    11. Re:Write your own by Hognoxious · · Score: 1, Troll

      You can be pissed all you want that homeschooling is more successful than public schools at giving kids a good education

      If your definition of "good education" is that the Earth is 6000 years old.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    12. Re:Write your own by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      And home-schooled kids learning Latin would know the plural of curriculum is curricula ;)

      Only in Latin! In English, the plural is "s".

    13. Re:Write your own by meringuoid · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Only in Latin! In English, the plural is "s".

      Only in the mainstream mediums, although sometimes they get it wrong and have to post a correction in the erratums column.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    14. Re:Write your own by AuMatar · · Score: 1, Troll

      Actually, they aren't. But keep telling yourself that, I'm sure you can convince yourself that you aren't fucking over your kids for life.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    15. Re:Write your own by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      Only in the mainstream mediums, although sometimes they get it wrong and have to post a correction in the erratums column.

      Language evolves constantly and the word "media" is no longer just the plural of the Latin word "medium". In fact the word "medium" is no longer the same as the Latin word, either. "Media" is an English language word in its own right - and is arguably quite capable of having a plural ending in an "s". The word "medium", of course, is indisputably capable of being pluralised with an "s".

      And any self-respecting English language publication that's not written by dead Romans or dinosaurs would call the column "corrections"!

    16. Re:Write your own by fyrewulff · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I didn't kill my argument by saying he used a book as his foundation. While he used it as a base, and it was present in the room, it was not required for the class. He was actually a teacher that did his job and wrote his own lessons instead of copypasting from goverment cheat sheets and showing up to collect a paycheck.

      --
      "We need to get over this notion, that, for Apple to win... Microsoft must lose." - Steve Jobs, 1997
    17. Re:Write your own by GNU(slash)Nickname · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, most home-schooled children outperform non home-schooled children in academics, and are more socially well-adjusted than non home-schooled children.

      [Citation Required]

    18. Re:Write your own by meringuoid · · Score: 1
      And any self-respecting English language publication that's not written by dead Romans or dinosaurs would call the column "corrections"!

      If I remember correctly, in the Independent it's actually called 'Mea culpa'.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    19. Re:Write your own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And there's far more to teaching a high school class than just a book...you need lessons, materials, labs, and assessments.

    20. Re:Write your own by Vidar+Leathershod · · Score: 4, Insightful

      from Wikipedia, in a sourced section of the article:

      Test results
      Figure 2. Home School Students Compared to the National Norm Group in Grade Equivalent Units, Scholastic Achievement and Demographic Characteristics of Home School Students in 1998, Lawrence M. Rudner, University of Maryland, College Park. From Education Policy Analysis Archives.

      Figure 2. Home School Students Compared to the National Norm Group in Grade Equivalent Units, Scholastic Achievement and Demographic Characteristics of Home School Students in 1998, Lawrence M. Rudner, University of Maryland, College Park. From Education Policy Analysis Archives
      Figure 1. Academic Achievement of Home School, Catholic/Private and the Nation's Students, Scholastic Achievement and Demographic Characteristics of Home School Students in 1998, Lawrence M. Rudner, University of Maryland, College Park. From Education Policy Analysis Archives
      Figure 1. Academic Achievement of Home School, Catholic/Private and the Nation's Students, Scholastic Achievement and Demographic Characteristics of Home School Students in 1998, Lawrence M. Rudner, University of Maryland, College Park. From Education Policy Analysis Archives

      Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[52][53] Home Schooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.[54]

      As for social adjustment:

      John Taylor later found, using the Piers-Harris Children's Self-Concept Scale, "while half of the conventionally schooled children scored at or below the 50th percentile (in self-concept), only 10.3% of the home-schooling children did so."[57] He further stated that "the self-concept of home-schooling children is significantly higher (and very much so statistically) than that of children attending the conventional school. This has implications in the areas of academic achievement and socialization, to mention only two. These areas have been found to parallel self-concept. Regarding socialization, Taylor's results would mean that very few home-schooling children are socially deprived. He claims that critics who speak out against home schooling on the basis of social deprivation are actually addressing an area which favors home schoolers.[57]

      Opposition to homeschooling comes from varied sources, including some organizations of teachers and school districts. The National Education Association, a United States professional association and union representing teachers, opposes homeschooling.[70][71]

      Of course there are those who oppose homeshooling:

      Opponents of homeschooling state concerns falling into several categories: standards of academic quality and completeness; (Notice they don't like measurements, only vague suspicions)

      (continued...)reduced funding for public schools; (ahh! here we come to the crux of the matter)

      lack of socialization with peers of different ethnic and religious backgrounds; (but they fail to cite)

      fear of religious or social extremism; (OMG! Are they *religious*? Oops - "Reason for homeshooling: Can give child better education at home - 48.9% with an error of 3.79")

      that homeschool curricula often exclude critical subjects; (not cited)

      that parents are sheltering their children, or denying them opportunities that are their right such as social development, or providing an unfair advantage over students whose parents lack the time or money to homeschool; existence of parallel societies not fitting into standards of citizenship and national community. [72]

      This is actually hilarious, because the article cites thi

      --
      The brains of a chicken, coupled with the claws of two eagles, may well hatch the eggs of our destruction.
    21. Re:Write your own by hal2814 · · Score: 1

      "He was actually a teacher that did his job and wrote his own lessons instead of copypasting from goverment cheat sheets and showing up to collect a paycheck."

      These days there is a big push for unified curriculum and part of that is going to be copy and pasting preexisting curriculum maps while modifying them for the specific class' needs. That doesn't make someone less of a teacher any more than using printf or cout instead of writing your own print function makes you less of a programmer.

    22. Re:Write your own by ghstomahawks · · Score: 1

      So ... the anonymous coward is in favor of both child labor, and students not needing teachers?

      Yeah, I'm sure the average 12 year old getting home from his part-time job would just love to sit down with his textbook and teach himself something rather than play outside. I suspect he'll even get through the curriculum faster than any of his peers in schools!

    23. Re:Write your own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YEAH!

      Homeschooling did me just fine!!! I can name all of the 10,000 animal kinds that were on Noah's Ark ... can YOU?!?

    24. Re:Write your own by Count+Fenring · · Score: 1

      A) I agree that homeschooling CAN be effective, I just don't agree that it is the perfect solution that it often is held up to be.

      For one thing, it requires at least one of the parents to pretty much devote themselves full time to teaching the kid. Not a bad choice for those who can afford to make it, but not one that everyone can make, either.

      For another: not everyone is capable of homeschooling. One of the reasons for the high performance of homeschooling in studies is that states generally have high standards that you must pass to be legally allowed to home school your children. For good reason, too.

      And really... what the hell is up with attributing everything to pro-union bias these days? The number of people you run into actually connected with a teacher's union has to be pretty small...

    25. Re:Write your own by Count+Fenring · · Score: 1

      Ahem.

      I am pissed that he threw a personal attack at a person who asked a reasonable question intended to help him teach better. I am not pissed about homeschooling: I'm questionable as to its status as One-True-WayTM.

      Also, way to assume that instructional talents and writing ability are always inherently linked. Writing a textbook and teaching a class are two separate skills, not always linked. Or are only polymaths allowed to play now?

    26. Re:Write your own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[52][53]

      Maybe you should "require" yourself to read a basic Wikipedia article before trying to "require" citations from them.

      Funny, it's likely you didn't read these studies either. One link [52] brings you to an abstract with no error figure. Absolutely useless (bordering on what I would call 'not even wrong'). The other alleged cite [53] brings you to an article that you need to pay for.

      So from the Wiki article and any free resources it points to there's little in the way of actual evidence to be weighed on the academic merits of homeschooling. There may be actual merits elsewhere recorded elsewhere but you're going to have to figure out some way to eliminate selection bias.

    27. Re:Write your own by sarkeizen · · Score: 1

      Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[52][53]

      Maybe you should "require" yourself to read a basic Wikipedia article before trying to "require" citations from them.

      Funny, it's likely you didn't read these studies either. One link [52] brings you to an abstract with no error figure. Absolutely useless (bordering on what I would call 'not even wrong'). The other alleged cite [53] brings you to an article that you need to pay for.

      So from the Wiki article and any free resources it points to there's little in the way of actual evidence to be weighed on the academic merits of homeschooling. There may be actual merits elsewhere recorded elsewhere but you're going to have to figure out some way to eliminate selection bias.

    28. Re:Write your own by Vidar+Leathershod · · Score: 1

      If you have something to add to the article, why don't you just add it, and cite it. Instead of complaining about the cited content, try and get it removed. That was my first visit to that article, but I knew what I would find. Why? Because there have been many published studies on the success of homeschooled children in education vs. their formally-schooled counterparts.

      Note that I did not say that Homeschooling always produces good results. But it has a better track record than the alternatives. Instead of trying to fight it, why not try to find out why it is more successful and take lessons from it.

      --
      The brains of a chicken, coupled with the claws of two eagles, may well hatch the eggs of our destruction.
    29. Re:Write your own by Vidar+Leathershod · · Score: 1

      Well I am glad to hear that, and certainly no solution is perfect. Those homeschoolers who I have talked to often speak of the various difficulties they can encounter. However, most started out with sending their kids to school, and they had more difficulties then.

      The other item you mentioned, which is full-time devotion to the teaching, is assuming that homeschoolers follow a public school schedule. They often don't.

      3 hours a day or less is usually enough time to do the lessons, assign practice work, grade assignments, and make sure the kids have had exercise. Cooperative children (those who aren't trying to avoid the work) can finish faster.

      The reasons for this are simple. There are only a few kids to teach, usually, and individual instruction is faster for most things. "Study Hall", "Lunch", Gym, etc., usually do not require monitoring (again dependent on the kids involved).

      Extra curricular activities are much the same in terms of time commitment. Little League, swimming, soccer, etc, are all a pain in the rear still. I don't think there is a solution for that :).

      Pro-union bias often arises as a topic in homeschooling because they as a lobby are one of the greatest opponents of home schooling. They frequently push for increased truancy ordinances (targeted at homeschooled children, who have been "picked up" on their way to the library), teacher and school review of curriculum, etc.

      The teacher review of curriculum is particularly laughable, since homeschooled children on the whole perform far better in standardized testing than the teacher's own students.

      --
      The brains of a chicken, coupled with the claws of two eagles, may well hatch the eggs of our destruction.
    30. Re:Write your own by GNU(slash)Nickname · · Score: 1

      Maybe you should "require" yourself to read a basic Wikipedia article before trying to "require" citations from them.

      Then again, you or your parents are probably Teachers-union types who vote along union lines, and would prefer a German system where Home schooling is illegal. For the good of the people, of course.

      You know, I was going to thank you for backing up your original claim in a useful, informative, and thorough manner. Too bad you turned into a fucking asshole at the last minute.

    31. Re:Write your own by PainKilleR-CE · · Score: 1

      >Just look at all the professors who are brilliant
      >theorists and scholars but terrible instructors.

      Another item to look at is how many text books are simply resold after the course is complete, even in computer programming courses, where you would think the student would have reason to maintain a decent library of solid books on at least some concepts. Many text books are written by professors, and they're often terrible. Most teachers use textbooks for homework problems and some examples, but the actual in-class teaching comes from material prepared by the teacher over many years of developing the course (as well as some material required by the school, in some cases).

      Of the college textbooks I've had over the years, I've kept 3 that were actually used in my classes:
      1) a Calculus workbook that contained a review of Algebra, Geometry, and Trigonometry.
      2) a Logic textbook (which I loaned to someone and never got back)
      3) K&R C

      It might be interesting to have K&R teaching a class on C, and they might have been better instructors than the one that used their book (and it was a supplemental book, not the main book for the course), but they're probably better off writing code than teaching undergrads to not forget their semicolons and ampersands.

      --
      -PainKilleR-[CE]
    32. Re:Write your own by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      If I remember correctly, in the Independent it's actually called 'Mea culpa'.

      Catholic dinosaurs???

    33. Re:Write your own by sarkeizen · · Score: 1

      If you have something to add to the article, why don't you just add it, and cite it.

      Your first error is that I have something I wish to add to the article. I don't.

      What I did have is something I wished to add to your unintelligent commentary. Which was chiding the person for something very similar to what you did.

      Instead of complaining about the cited content, try and get it removed.

      I'm not complaining about your uninformed statement. I'm correcting it.

      Because there have been many published studies on the success of homeschooled children in education vs. their formally-schooled counterparts.

      If there is better information than an abstract with results but no error...shouldn't you have taken your own advice and added that to the article?

      That aside, if you had cites to actually useful articles. Wouldn't it have been more useful to post them?

      Note that I did not say that Homeschooling always produces good results.
      ...aaaand note that you are responding to a point that was never made.

      But it has a better track record than the alternatives.

      This has not been supported with useful evidence in this discussion.

      Just so you are less confused you did two monumentally stupid things here:

      a) Corrected someone on a specific aspect of a subject, directing them to an article which (without cost anyway) had zero to contribute to the subject. Yes, figures without errors are useless in this respect.

      b) Making an assertion without useful support.

      Instead of trying to fight it, why not try to find out why it is more successful and take lessons from it.

      It's like talking to a flat-earther here. I can't "fight" what hasn't been established.

      Interesting that you seem to have completely avoided the point about selection bias. If you don't see that as a problem that needs significant attention in any study on homeschooling then I question how you are in any position to suggest what studies someone should read.

    34. Re:Write your own by wetdogjp · · Score: 1

      Thanks, but your comment isn't helpful in the slightest. I'm creating my curriculum from scratch every night, and it's completely overwhelming. That's precisely what I'm trying to get away from.

      I have three classes with different needs, and in addition to researching and writing lessons each day, I have to grade them, determine what the kids are and aren't learning from my lessons, and make corrections. That's not to say that I won't still be drawing from other resources -- and my own experience -- but a comprehensive book geared towards vocational high school students would be a great boon to them and me.

    35. Re:Write your own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was with you until you started knocking those teacher's union types.

      I am a teacher who is also a member of the NEA, yet my wife and I have decided to homeschool our children. Ours reasons are mostly covered by your points above.

      What you miss is a lot of teachers choose to homeschool their own children. After all, they have the training, and any teacher who has been teaching capably for a while can rattle off a half-dozen reasons not to send your children to public schools.

      That said, teachers unions are no different than any other union nowadays. It's about pay, benefits, and working conditions. But I don't know of any union member in this country who looks to their union to tell them how to vote in any given election. Period.

    36. Re:Write your own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm living proof of this study... I was homeschooled for the majority of my life, was very active in 2 sports (Swimming, where I qualified for Senior Nationals), and Gymnastics (qualified for Intermediate Nationals in tumbling).
                I scored in the top 1/4% on the ACT, and was a finalist in the National Merit Scholarship competition. I received a 60% scholarship to an Aerospace Engineering program at a respected engineering school (Iowa State -- Don't knock it until you do your research). I've worked as a coach, in customer service, in food service to pay college bills. I have plenty of friends and no problem taking care of myself in society.
                Some of the social misconceptions about homeschooling are just ridiculous. It wasn't some religious boot camp. My parents are Christian conservatives, and were concerned about the happenings in the local public schools (gang activity, teacher scandals, etc...) and opted instead to do some research and find me some curriculum that basically allowed me to teach myself. They graded my tests, and we had a supervisor from the school district come out and check up on me every couple of weeks.
                This method of self-education made college so much easier. Having all those hard-science professors who barely spoke english and just wrote equations on the board didn't bother me. I just read the relevant sections of the book and figured things out for myself. Hell, I didn't even attend my freshman Calculus class because the teacher was so poor he just confused me, and I still pulled an A.
                I'd just like to not be branded as an outcast or inferior due to the fact that I didn't go through the public schooling system. I joined the Navy, and was forced to get a GED and have someone review my academic history since I didn't have an official diploma. Even after all of this, they still told me I wasn't smart enough to be a Nuclear Engineer (where the only requirement academically is a decent ASVAB score -- I got a 99 -- and a high school diploma).
                I ended up speaking with a Senior Chief who had been in the Navy for somewhere around 20 years, and he said its always been that way. I've had potential employers be extremely critical of my academic background, despite my ability to prove myself again and again, simply.

      Wall of text aside, I should probably just register so I'm not an Anonymous Coward anymore. This is just a touchy subject for me, clearly.

    37. Re:Write your own by rmcd · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, I don't have anything constructive to contribute. I just wanted to commend you for trying to do your job well. Many K-12 teachers I observe (I have kids in school) work hard and conscientiously and put in long hours.

      Thank you, and best of luck.

    38. Re:Write your own by ittybad · · Score: 1

      I did not RTF(Comment) -- it was too long for my publicly educated mind -- but there is an important difference about home schooled students I feel is important to point out: They have parents that are motivated enough (about their children's education) to "do it themselves." A better test pool to compare home schooled kids and their public schooled counterparts would be to limit the public schooled pool to those whose parents are "actively involved with their student's education." I would venture to guess that the achievement gaps would narrow considerably.

      --
      No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood.
    39. Re:Write your own by magicchex · · Score: 1

      Correlation is not causation. I wouldn't be surprised if when you adjust out for socio-economic factors, public school students perform better than home-schooled students. Those living in poverty cannot afford to not be at work and cannot homeschool their children. So the children who are homeschooled are disproportionately middle and upper class.

      --
      How many fulltime jobs can one man have?
    40. Re:Write your own by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      What the hell are you talking about? There are way more homeschooling parents than there are "people qualified to create curriculum from scratch."

      There's no way it could work if it weren't for the tremendous number of resources available to people who want to go down that road.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    41. Re:Write your own by Vidar+Leathershod · · Score: 1

      Umm... have you seen some of the comments put out by NYSUT (NYS United Teachers)? They are extremely aggressive at defending what they consider to be their turf.

      In NYS, we have had a very hard time getting good educational freedom legislation passed specifically because of the union. Note I did not say "teachers", but "teachers union". Even our local teachers cringe at the decadence of the union headquarters. They are like a palace, and they have an ungodly budget.

      Unless the Wikipedia article is incorrect in regards to NEA, they are "opposed" to homeschooling. I can't vouch for that, as I didn't personally research it, and as we know Wikipedia doesn't approve of original research anyway :).

      I think that certainly pay, benefits, and working conditions are concerns of teachers, but the union in NYS seems to be far more interested in being a gatekeeper. I don't know if they are available online, but feel free to try and google their radio spots regarding charter schools. They were quite disturbing in their portrayal of some very dedicated attempts to improve educational quality in the state.

      I say all of this as someone who graduated from a public school, and enjoyed most of it, and liked most of my teachers. In fact, I would say I had some of the best teachers available. Some still teach in the local school, but the school itself is garbage, with garbage administrators and garbage goals. You could take 3 of those teachers I had, clone them and put them in charge, and you would have an excellent school.

      But you won't see that anytime soon, and there is no reason why parents should have to sit around and wait. Not that you made that argument, so I don't want to attribute that to you. It's more of a general comment.

      --
      The brains of a chicken, coupled with the claws of two eagles, may well hatch the eggs of our destruction.
    42. Re:Write your own by Vidar+Leathershod · · Score: 1

      If you read what I was replying to again, I want you to see that the person was basically trying to put the onus of proof on the OP not to discover the truth, but to try and weaken his argument without giving his own evidence.

      I don't know why I am a jerk just for calling out union leeches. Maybe he wasn't one, but I enjoy the artistic license of lumping him/her in with them. Now, maybe your state teachers union is a benevolent one. Mine is NYSUT, and they care about extending their political power, and not so much about teachers.

      As I comment below in response to a teacher, I have nothing against teachers. I had many great teachers, and wish my kids could have all of them (not possible due to retirement, everyone gets old). Even if they were still there, the system is set up against education. Instead, our local schools focus on qualifying as many children as possible for special needs (money), participating in experimental educational programs (grant money) and social "education" (raising the next generation to think as they do, instead of for themselves). The typical response would perhaps be "they need more money!". Unfortunately, our local district is already spending more than 20K per student per year. A good 1 million or more of that is 1 superintendent, 1 assistant superintendent, 3 principals and vice-principals (1 set for each school), and secretaries for each of those figures. 1200 students. 8 administrators.

      I'm not an a**hole, because I don't like the feeling of bulls**t sliding by me.

      --
      The brains of a chicken, coupled with the claws of two eagles, may well hatch the eggs of our destruction.
    43. Re:Write your own by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Except that home schooled kids are not primarily from overly wealthy families. They run from very wealthy to very poor, just like their public schooled counterparts. Well, as poor as you can get in a place like the US. The "Home schooled kids only come from rich families" is simply wrong.

    44. Re:Write your own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd just like to not be branded as an outcast or inferior due to the fact that I didn't go through the public schooling system. I joined the Navy, and was forced to get a GED and have someone review my academic history since I didn't have an official diploma. Even after all of this, they still told me I wasn't smart enough to be a Nuclear Engineer (where the only requirement academically is a decent ASVAB score -- I got a 99 -- and a high school diploma).

      Why didn't you just get a GED to begin with?
      Normally colleges throw you out if they discover that you don't have a GED.

      It's not like you even have to put high school on your resume to begin with-- although you might have to fill it in on one of those standardized forms.

      The fact that you're still bitter about the whole experience just confirms that homeschooling is a terrible idea. It's just another way for Christian conservatives to indoctrinate kids with creationism and bigotry, without having any of those pesky opposing viewpoints getting in the way. It's not healthy for the teenagers to spend all their time with their parents, and it's not healthy for society.

    45. Re:Write your own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah! Wasn't the unibomber homeschooled? Homeschooling teaches the kids so much about interacting in society...

    46. Re:Write your own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being a religiously brainwashed inbred fucktard is no obstacle to getting modpoints, or so it would appear.

    47. Re:Write your own by sarkeizen · · Score: 1

      If you read what I was replying to again, I want you to see that the person was basically trying to put the onus of proof


      on someone who either made (or affirmed) the statement....which is where it is most usefully put

      on the OP not to discover the truth, but to try and weaken his argument without giving his own evidence.

      Criticizing a statement simply because it lacks support is valid. Those statements which are easily and strongly supported stand and those which are not fall away. This correctly assigns the proper confidence to the idea presented.

      Requiring someone have some particular motive at the time is a) Stupid - since it's difficult if not impossible to assess objectively. b) unnecessary - arguments may be fully evaluated without said knowledge.

    48. Re:Write your own by Vidar+Leathershod · · Score: 1

      Obviously, you like arguing. I do to. But not for a freaking week. You literally have tired me into submission, as I cannot even be bothered to read your latest drivel, everyone who disagrees with you is stupid, I get it, there are no other motives in your heart but the pursuit of knowledge and purity, and the fact that you want to defend someone making a baseless attack on people who choose to homeschool or something. Also, I like run-on sentences and lots of commas.

      Whatever.

      --
      The brains of a chicken, coupled with the claws of two eagles, may well hatch the eggs of our destruction.
  4. High School Graduate Computer Careers? by Apple+Acolyte · · Score: 3, Interesting

    the third class should prepare juniors and seniors to enter the workforce and start a career in computers.

    Are any employers anywhere willing to hire high schoolers in any tech jobs in today's economy?

    --
    Part of the hardcore faithful who believed in Apple long before it was cool again to do so
    1. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by FearForWings · · Score: 5, Funny

      Maybe he was thinking on teaching from 'The C Programming Language' by K&R, and the class project would be writing a Turing complete interpreter for the Game of Life.

      --
      I don't know about angles, but it's fear that gives men wings. -Max Payne
    2. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by vigmeister · · Score: 5, Funny

      Are any employers anywhere willing to hire high schoolers in any tech jobs in today's economy?

      You need to get out more and smell the recycled air at Best Buy, Circuit City, Apple stores etc.
      Fairly sure those people are high school graduates at best. If those employees are college graduates, I am not sure that a college degree is worth all that much.

      Me: Do you carry crossover cables?
      Employee: What are those?
      Me: A cable with cross-wired ethernet jacks at the ends.
      Employee: What are you trying to use it for?
      Me: To connect my desktop to my laptop
      Employee: Well, you could use an external hard drive to transfer files over...

      Cheers!

      --
      Atheist: Buddhist in a Prius
    3. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by Vectronic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're absolutely right, stop teaching tech entirely, train them how to work at McDonalds till they are 35, then start teaching them Tech... cause we all know teaching an old dog new tricks is easy.

      Infact, don't even teach them a spoken language until they are 19, would save all that back talking. ...

      Yeah, most, probably nearly all wont find a job that suits there skills immediately, but pretty much no one does right out of highschool regardless of what they might have specialized in... but if they dont start in high-school (or earlier) how do you expect them to get into college/university for something they like? "I'd like to be here, seems cool" doesnt get you anywhere if you can't show some sort of competence...

      Notice the "enter" and "start"... in your quote, doesnt mean they will get hired being a full-time anything, they have to work their way up just like anyone/other job.

    4. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by Apple+Acolyte · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's mostly sales and not really a computer/tech job.

      --
      Part of the hardcore faithful who believed in Apple long before it was cool again to do so
    5. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by tukang · · Score: 0, Troll

      They will probably be hired as interns (see free labor)

    6. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by atrus · · Score: 3, Informative

      In the age of auto MDI/MDIX, who uses crossover cables anymore? ;)

    7. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by syousef · · Score: 2, Informative

      Are any employers anywhere willing to hire high schoolers in any tech jobs in today's economy?

      My first computing job was after I'd dropped out of a 1st year B.Sc. I worked for a year based on just high school certification for less than I could have earnt if I held a job at McDonalds. This was in 1994, and the job involved programming, phone support and on site customer installations. My boss only hired highschoolers so he could pay like that. I was able to get into a B.Sc. in Computing the following year and use that year of underpaid work as my industrial experience year (so in the end I only lost the year I spent on that first degree). So while the pay was awful and I'd have been a fool to stay it actually worked out well for me in the long run. Well 14 years have passed, but I bet my old boss is still engaged in the exact same hiring practices.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    8. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by plasmacutter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Are any employers anywhere willing to hire high schoolers in any tech jobs in today's economy?

      Ar any employers anywhere willing to hire college educated individuals in any tech jobs in todays economy?

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    9. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by TikiTDO · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you've got an IT/Programming/Engineering degree you probably will not work at Best Buy, Circuit City or Apple stores. Chances are the people you were talking to are high school grads with a few tech courses under their belts, exactly the same as the ones the article was talking about.

    10. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by maccam · · Score: 1

      I agree wholeheartedly. I haven't used crossover cables for desktop - laptop connections in the past two years. And, as you state, MDI/MDIX also eliminates the need to use crossover cables to add switches to a LAN, which was probably their most important use.

      --
      Half Word - Will Double, Wire Palindrome, San Francisco
    11. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why does nobody get sarcasm nowadays?

    12. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by vigmeister · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Didn't you get a set of crimpers with your geek card?

      Both of those were nowhere to be found amongst all the empty styrofoam bowls with korean lettering and hot pocket sleeve origami.
       

      --
      Atheist: Buddhist in a Prius
    13. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by hendrix2k · · Score: 1
      While I know we're all sick of the defensive employee rant, I'd just like to point out that not all Best Buy/Circuit City/Apple employees are high-school educated dolts.

      I recently moved from a small-market store in the Northwest (where the Geek Squad and PC employees were far more competent than the customer base) to a large suburban store (where, as customers have mentioned all too often, finding a competent employee can be quite a struggle), so there is a bit of wiggle room.

      From my experience it has more to do with the employment opportunities than anything else. At the first store all the Geek Squad employees were college educated but without better opportunity in that locale. The few that have moved to larger cities have found much better employment almost instantly.

      But with the turnover in larger markets, you can't really expect big box stores to require certifications for salespeople, can you?

    14. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by vigmeister · · Score: 1

      I was stating that high school dolts can find jobs at these places. That does not preclude people with UIDs higher than mine from working there :)

      Il facto, when I was buying my first router, I was educated in the greatness of the WRT54G routers by a store employee at CompUSA; Cisco bless his soul!

      Cheers!

      --
      Atheist: Buddhist in a Prius
    15. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>>Infact, don't even teach them a spoken language until they are 19, would save all that back talking. ...

      Wow !!

      Now if I'd only thought of that a couple of years back. No "I told you already" from my two year old. No "I don't think So".

      What a fool I have been.

      Why did I teach her to speak !?!?!

    16. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well that's good, because kids already know that you can be a winner in the game of life.

    17. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      Somebody who makes use of older hardware, such as my ancient and withered laptop from 2005.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    18. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by pedramnavid · · Score: 3, Funny

      Perhaps I could interest you in an upgrade? Even better, it would be covered under the Best Buy Service Plan

    19. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      maybe he has old ass computers. You know if you run linux computers from about 2000 will more then do you.

    20. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by melstav · · Score: 1

      People who regularly have to work with hardware that is more than a few years old, and thus doesn't do auto MDI/MDIX

    21. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MDI/MDIX is mostly found in switches, not in computers.

      So a common use is to connect a desktop to a laptop.

    22. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, the place I work for is (but no positions open at the moment, hence anon!). At that level someone who comes across with a willingness to learn is going to stand more chance than someone who's an expert in a particular small field.

      Don't forget that "tech job" > "programming in a particular language".

    23. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by tubs · · Score: 1

      Who buys crossover cables? Just make it.

      --

      try to make ends meet, you're a slave to money, then you die

    24. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      the third class should prepare juniors and seniors to enter the workforce and start a career in computers.

      Are any employers anywhere willing to hire high schoolers in any tech jobs in today's economy?

      Clearly you've never seen the sacrifices made in business every day exchanging well-paid experienced personnel for someone who barely qualifies but will work for $9/hour.

    25. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I actually inherited a recent network product that uses a crossover cable actually. The Room Alert products use them. They work well, actually but do require it.

    26. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by hendrix2k · · Score: 1
      I was stating that high school dolts can find jobs at these places

      And all too easily sometimes! The smaller market store didn't do any sort of drug-testing, so there were a large number of burnouts (think Jim Anchower) and the occasional meth-head.

      I have been excited to see that my current store (in the DC area) actually carries VPN and gigabit stuff, something wholly unavailable in the quiet mountain town I formerly called home.

    27. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by Ellis+D.+Tripp · · Score: 1

      If they went to college in India, and came here on an H1B.....

      --
      Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
    28. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by needs2bfree · · Score: 1

      Me. My parents have 2 computers in the house where one moves frequently. The sole purpose of connecting them is so we can play PvP on Starcraft / WarCraft / FarCry. I had a box of cable and a couple ends sitting around so I made one. Simple and cheap. What more could you ask for?

    29. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by TheQuantumShift · · Score: 1

      Yes, but they must also have 5 years experience in developing, maintaining and administering a state of the art web 3.0 .Net on rails e-commerce customer "engine"... (And be willing to work for less than India).

      --

      Shift happens. Fire it up.
    30. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by Hyppy · · Score: 1

      Once, when I was out of my home town and needed a crossover cable, I decided to just buy a set of crimpers and bulk cable to make my own. I figured I could always use the extra cable and crimpers at home.

      After over 2 days of searching, the only place that had Cat5 (not even Cat5e) in bulk, and 8p8c ends, was an electrical contractor supply store. That wouldn't sell to someone without a local permit.

      Moral of the story: you can't always make your own.

    31. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone with old computers and no hub.

    32. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dunno if it counts as a tech job, but most customer support/tech support call center jobs in America are staffed about 50% with kids just out of high school. They have to, the crappy working conditions and low pay are all too familiar to anyone older.

    33. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by cptdondo · · Score: 1

      Heh... While K&R ain't exactly light reading, it's not bad for a general intro. Certainly with enough backup it would make a good text.

      But then again I've met high school kids who are really bright. Or maybe they just had good teachers?

    34. Re:High School Graduate Computer Careers? by shoran · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. We just finished our 10th year of our IT Internship Program in Louisville. We had our 300th student hired and we earned our millionth dollar. This years 36 kids earned 96,700 dollars and many are still working as co-ops during the year. So, YES employers DO hire certified, well-schooled students. Email me back at scott.horan@jefferson.kyschools.us for more info

  5. Learn Shell Scripting! by dgatwood · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I feel like being a BOFH and suggesting this one:

    Shell Scripting Primer

    :-D

    But seriously, I've never much liked any of the textbooks I've read, so I can't suggest anything specific. All I can give is one piece of general advice: whatever you do, don't fall into the trap of using Java as your core language. I understand why some schools do so---the ability to ignore such things as pointers and memory management is tempting---but the result is a bunch of students who don't understand memory management or pointers and only know how to program in a language that almost nobody in the industry actually uses, is fundamentally contrary to performance (at least where GUI apps are concerned), and is nearly impossible to force to integrate well with the OS the apps are running on. It's even worse than Pascal was in the 90s---at least Pascal skills transferred fairly easily to C....

    If you have access to a Mac lab, you might consider teaching them Objective-C. There seems to be a shortage of good ObjC programmers out there, and the Xcode/Interface Builder combination makes it relatively easy for students to get their hands dirty and start writing interactive visual apps without having to resort to an abortion like Visual Basic or clumsy programmatic UI widget systems like [insert most GUI libraries here]. :-D

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    1. Re:Learn Shell Scripting! by Mr2001 · · Score: 3, Informative

      don't fall into the trap of using Java as your core language. [...] the result is a bunch of students who [...] only know how to program in a language that almost nobody in the industry actually uses,

      [...]

      If you have access to a Mac lab, you might consider teaching them Objective-C.

      You're joking, right?

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    2. Re:Learn Shell Scripting! by Dr.+Blue · · Score: 1

      Wow - where to start....

      First off, you say "don't fall into the trap of using Java as your core language ... only know how to program in a language that almost nobody in the industry actually uses"

      That's just completely wrong. Java is THE most used language in industry. Here's a completely unscientific method of finding out, but I did a search on monster.com for "x developer", where "x" was java, c++, c#, c, and objective-c. Here's the results:

      Java: 4035 jobs
      C++: 2022 jobs
      C#: 2966 jobs
      C: 1457 jobs
      Objective-C: 31 jobs

      Given that C# is pretty indistinguishable from Java as far as programming language (not libraries) goes, by learning Java you get not just the first most popular language (Java), but the second as well (C#).

      Then: "you might consider teaching them Objective-C" - so yea, you get less than 1% of the job market of java.

      That said, I think "job market" is a poor argument to make here. No one (I hope) is going to go out and get a software development job out of high school. For developers, you want them to start thinking like a programmer (Java is great for that, by the way) so they can get into more advanced courses in college easier.

    3. Re:Learn Shell Scripting! by ColaMan · · Score: 1

      You're using Google to look for Java jobs? Let me fill you in on a little history here.

      All those jobs that pop up in Google were created by a single example Java JobWorm(tm), created by Sun's experimental labs back in 1996. Due to Java's insidious "write-once,run-anywhere" nature and it's accidental inclusion as example code in Sun's first printing of "Introductory Java", it's still on the loose today - cruelly crushing the dreams of those who spend years of their lives becoming Java Gods, only to find the contact numbers on Java job ads all resolve to a X-rated video store near Sun headquarters that one of the original Java developers was fond of frequenting.

      The objective-C guys haven't managed to get their worm code to cross-compile nicely across all platforms yet, but it's getting there. Once they do and it's in the wild proper, watch out, it'll be slick. If you're surfing the net and suddenly feel the urge to really get cracking on Objective-C, it's a sure sign you've just made contact with the worm. With slow, measured movements, reduce your monitor's contrast to minimum and back carefully away from the computer. Delete your browsing history with averted eyes (or by using a mirror) once the urge passes.

      A small dose of BASIC (ten or fifteen lines of code a month) is generally enough in most situations to give you some protection against these two worms. If you are working in a dot-com startup, or are frequently exposed to Management, this may need to be increased to 500 lines of BASIC code a week, possibly including some optimised hardware-specific assembly subroutines.

      Take care, and stay alert.

      --

      You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
      There is a lot of hype here.
    4. Re:Learn Shell Scripting! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This guy is either nuts or lives below a big apple... without Internet connection!

      Dude... don't type and go back to your photoshop. ObjectiveC? We're talking about programming here!

    5. Re:Learn Shell Scripting! by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Java is used primarily in IT (and at least for now, cell phones, though that's starting to show signs of changing). Those jobs tend to pay less than programming jobs for software companies writing commercial software. I can't think of a single (end user) commercial software package used outside of IT shops that is written in Java.

      By contrast, if you know ObjC, you also know C, and if taught correctly, C++. And from ObjC 2.0, C# is trivial, as they are based on a lot of similar concepts. Therefore, the job market for a good ObjC programmer by your numbers is basically 6476. or more than half again more jobs than Java.

      Also, job counts aren't a good indicator of shortages. Companies get thousands of applicants for each of those Java jobs and end up heavily filtering by keyword just to pare it down to a list small enough to look through. The ObjC jobs get one or two candidates every few months. Therefore, your odds of getting a job are still far better in spite of it being a smaller market.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    6. Re:Learn Shell Scripting! by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      I can't think of a single (end user) commercial software package used outside of IT shops that is written in Java.

      Ah yes, unlike all those commercial software packages written in Objective-C. You know, like, um... iLife!

      There's more to being a professional developer than writing commercial applications. For instance, there are plenty of jobs that involve writing Java for web sites.

      And from ObjC 2.0, C# is trivial, as they are based on a lot of similar concepts.

      Not even close. If you want to learn C# by studying another language, you're much better off choosing Java. ObjC 2.0 has garbage collection, but that's where the similarities stop.

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    7. Re:Learn Shell Scripting! by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, unlike all those commercial software packages written in Objective-C. You know, like, um... iLife!

      Almost all commercial apps on the Mac are written at least partially in ObjC. That said, you're deliberately avoiding my point, which was that nearly all commercial apps on the planet are written in some form of C.

      That said, as the third largest computer manufacturer in the U.S. market, the Mac programmer market is growing rather rapidly at the moment. Add to that all the apps for the iPhone, which is a huge market opportunity for folks getting in right now. You'd have to have been living under a rock for the last year to think that the only commercial software package written in ObjC is iLife....

      Not even close. If you want to learn C# by studying another language, you're much better off choosing Java. ObjC 2.0 has garbage collection, but that's where the similarities stop.

      I don't know where to begin arguing with you. They both have everything descending from a single core type (object in C#, id in ObjC), they both have basically the same function declaration syntax (ObjC methods notwithstanding), they both have extensions to support variable length arrays (albeit with very different syntax), they both have properties (variables with built-in getters and setters) with at least somewhat similar syntax, they both have the concept of interfaces, both have categories (though C# calls them "language extensions"), they both have dynamic bindings (optional in C#), etc. Conceptually speaking, C# takes a lot of Objective-C concepts and redeploys them using a syntax that more closely resembles C++. They have, of course, also added a few new things, many of which Apple has since added in ObjC 2.0.

      Syntactically, the Objective-C extensions look very different from their C# counterparts, but conceptually, I can't imagine how you could claim that the only similarity is garbage collection unless you know nothing whatsoever about ObjC 2.0....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    8. Re:Learn Shell Scripting! by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      You'd have to have been living under a rock for the last year to think that the only commercial software package written in ObjC is iLife....

      Just like you'd have to have been living under a rock to think that Objective-C skills are in higher demand than Java skills.

      I don't know where to begin arguing with you. They both have everything descending from a single core type (object in C#, id in ObjC), they both have basically the same function declaration syntax (ObjC methods notwithstanding), they both have extensions to support variable length arrays (albeit with very different syntax), they both have properties (variables with built-in getters and setters) with at least somewhat similar syntax, they both have the concept of interfaces, both have categories (though C# calls them "language extensions"), they both have dynamic bindings (optional in C#), etc.

      1. "id" in ObjC is closer to Java's Object type than C#'s, since -- correct me if I'm wrong -- ObjC has a dichotomy between primitive and object types, just like Java, while in C# every value type (including primitives like int) descends from System.Object.

      2. Java has the same function declaration syntax, the concept of interfaces, and the same kind of "dynamic bindings" as C# (i.e. reflection). It also has "extensions to support variable length arrays", although if you're ignoring the syntax differences, that's true of just about every high level language.

      Syntactically, the Objective-C extensions look very different from their C# counterparts, but conceptually, I can't imagine how you could claim that the only similarity is garbage collection unless you know nothing whatsoever about ObjC 2.0....

      I can't imagine how you could claim that C# has those similarities but Java doesn't, unless you know nothing whatsoever about Java. Considering that you referred to Java as a language no one uses, maybe that's the problem.

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    9. Re:Learn Shell Scripting! by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Just like you'd have to have been living under a rock to think that Objective-C skills are in higher demand than Java skills.

      Once again, you twist my words. I never said that they were. I said your job prospects if you were good at either were much better in Objective-C than Java because the candidate pool for the limited jobs is so much smaller.

      1. "id" in ObjC is closer to Java's Object type than C#'s, since -- correct me if I'm wrong -- ObjC has a dichotomy between primitive and object types, just like Java, while in C# every value type (including primitives like int) descends from System.Object.

      Very true. That said, people rarely use the base types in ObjC except when writing glue code that interfaces with C code, at which point there's good reason for them to not be objects.... For the most part, folks use things like NSNumber, NSString, etc., which are objects.

      2. Java has the same function declaration syntax, the concept of interfaces, and the same kind of "dynamic bindings" as C# (i.e. reflection). It also has "extensions to support variable length arrays", although if you're ignoring the syntax differences, that's true of just about every high level language.

      Java doesn't have categories or anything like it, so therefore Java doesn't use dynamic bindings to nearly the degree of C# or ObjC. The concept of categories is similar to a subclass except that you effectively add additional methods to every object of some particular class without the code that allocates the class instance having to change to allocate a subclass. C# provides the same thing with language extensions. This is a very powerful concept that AFAIK is completely alien to Java. For example, say I'm writing a piece of code that uses a library that maintains an ordered list. Let's say that there's another library I have that allocates lots of these lists for me and I want to be able to manipulate those resulting lists as queues. Let's say that both of those libraries are provided by a third party and I can't change them. What do I do? I can either rewrite all my code to immediately wrap those lists with some wrapper class and make a real mess of things or I can just create a category that blows those functions into every instance of the class. Done. Now, when I need those methods, they are there.

      The Java use of dynamic binding basically is limited to calling member functions that don't exist in a base class but just happen to be known to exist in the particular object (of a subclass of that class) that you've assigned to a variable of the base class type. While the effect is similar, Java only dynamically binds calls to functions that are not in the base class, and IIRC you get an exception thrown if the class doesn't have that function. With ObjC, there's no exception because sending a message that the object doesn't understand is not an error. This can cause some interesting bugs, but also permits some interesting designs.

      I can't imagine how you could claim that C# has those similarities but Java doesn't....

      Also, Java doesn't have properties, delegates (function pointers), operator overloading (okay, so that's ObjC++), output parameters, pointers, goto, unsigned types....

      C# is much more similar to C and its derivative languages than it is to Java....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    10. Re:Learn Shell Scripting! by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Once again, you twist my words. [...] I said your job prospects if you were good at either were much better in Objective-C than Java because the candidate pool for the limited jobs is so much smaller.

      But you said Java is "a language that almost nobody in the industry actually uses", so surely you can't mean that there are actually more people using Java than Objective-C, right? Or are you ready to retract that hilariously wrong statement yet?

      The fact is, there are more Java jobs, more Java programs, and more Java programmers. It's used far more than ObjC is. If your point is that you'd rather be a big fish in a small pond, then just say that, but don't expect everyone to agree (perhaps they'd like a choice of several employers instead of being stuck with the one ObjC job in their region). What you're saying instead is basically "No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

      Java doesn't have categories or anything like it, so therefore Java doesn't use dynamic bindings to nearly the degree of C# or ObjC.

      C# doesn't have dynamic binding, except for virtual methods and reflection. Extension methods are syntactical sugar that take effect at compile time, not runtime -- static bindings, not dynamic.

      C# provides the same thing with language extensions. This is a very powerful concept that AFAIK is completely alien to Java. For example, say I'm writing a piece of code that uses a library that maintains an ordered list. Let's say that there's another library I have that allocates lots of these lists for me and I want to be able to manipulate those resulting lists as queues. Let's say that both of those libraries are provided by a third party and I can't change them. What do I do? I can either rewrite all my code to immediately wrap those lists with some wrapper class and make a real mess of things or I can just create a category that blows those functions into every instance of the class. Done. Now, when I need those methods, they are there.

      Again, this is not an example of dynamic binding. If you add a "Dequeue" method to the list type, then every time you call "list.Dequeue()" it's nothing but a syntactic shortcut for "MyExtensions.Dequeue(list)" -- you're calling a static method whose identity is known at compile time. It saves you a bit of typing, that's all. (Extension methods provide a more tangible benefit when the compiler is looking for a method with a particular name, e.g. when you're using LINQ, but the call is still bound at compile time.)

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    11. Re:Learn Shell Scripting! by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      But you said Java is "a language that almost nobody in the industry actually uses", so surely you can't mean that there are actually more people using Java than Objective-C, right? Or are you ready to retract that hilariously wrong statement yet?

      I never said that Objective-C was more common than Java. I said that C-based languages (of which ObjC is one) are more common than Java, and that by learning Objective-C, you would gain skills that are more broadly deployable because it is based on C. I stand by that statement.

      Again, this is not an example of dynamic binding. If you add a "Dequeue" method to the list type, then every time you call "list.Dequeue()" it's nothing but a syntactic shortcut for "MyExtensions.Dequeue(list)" -- you're calling a static method whose identity is known at compile time. It saves you a bit of typing, that's all. (Extension methods provide a more tangible benefit when the compiler is looking for a method with a particular name, e.g. when you're using LINQ, but the call is still bound at compile time.)

      Fair enough. I read somewhere that they were basically the same conceptually, so I assumed they used the same underlying techniques. My bad. Looking at it more closely, it looks to me like C# extensions affect all classes. That's a pretty gross hack, as it doesn't allow you do define different methods to extend different classes except through object introspection, and IMHO, any time you have to introspect an object to determine behavior, it's a sure sign that either the language or your own design is wrong.... :-) But I digress....

      My point still remains, though, that ObjC is an easy way to get you started in C, making it possible to create simple (but not hackish-looking) graphical apps literally in seconds, and that most of the language skills you learn in ObjC can easily be transferred to other C-based languages. I suppose that's also true for C#....

      My point also remains that in order to truly understand what's going on in your system, you need to understand pointers, so teaching in Java leaves students lacking critical skills that are necessary for understanding languages like Perl, kernel programming, most other systems programming, end-user application programming, etc., thus significantly narrowing the possible opportunities for employment. By contrast, if you understand the C-based languages, picking up Java is fairly trivial, as it mostly feels like a subset of the knowledge you already have. Thus, someone who learns a complex C-based language like ObjC++or C# is in a much better position than someone who learns Java.

      Now, for the inevitable car analogy: the C++/C#/ObjC vs. Java question is like the question of learning on stick vs. automatic. Somebody who knows stick can more easily switch to automatic (albeit wearing a hole in the left floorboard in the process) than someone who knows automatic can switch to stick. :-)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    12. Re:Learn Shell Scripting! by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      I said that C-based languages (of which ObjC is one) are more common than Java, and that by learning Objective-C, you would gain skills that are more broadly deployable because it is based on C. I stand by that statement.

      That's not what I asked. I asked whether you still stand by your description of Java as "a language that almost nobody in the industry actually uses".

      Looking at it more closely, it looks to me like C# extensions affect all classes. That's a pretty gross hack, as it doesn't allow you do define different methods to extend different classes except through object introspection, and IMHO, any time you have to introspect an object to determine behavior, it's a sure sign that either the language or your own design is wrong....

      C# extensions can differentiate between classes at compile time, the same way any other statically bound method can: through overloading. When you define "public static T Dequeue<T>(this List<T> list)", it'll be matched by a call to .Dequeue() on a List<T> or subclass thereof, but not any other class.

      My point also remains that in order to truly understand what's going on in your system, you need to understand pointers, so teaching in Java leaves students lacking critical skills [...] Thus, someone who learns a complex C-based language like ObjC++or C# is in a much better position than someone who learns Java.

      Most C# programmers will never use pointers, since they're rarely necessary and they make the code unverifiable.

      Indeed, referring to C# as a C-based language is disingenuous; parts of the syntax are closer to C than the Java equivalents, and it brings back a handful of C concepts (like goto), but overall it's certainly closer to Java than to C. Compare C/C++ and C#'s treatment of arrays, or declaration syntax ("int * p, q;" means two different things), or templates vs. generics, or the construction sequence and its effect on type identity, or destructors vs. finalizers, or the meaning of a "class" type, or the meaning of "const"...

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
  6. Professor and Pat by tkosan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I am in the process of writing a series of free ebooks for high school age students which teach the detailed fundamentals of how a computer works:

    http://professorandpat.org/

    The programming books are designed to work with a free development environment called MathRider:

    http://mathrider.org/

    Some of your students may find these to be useful.

    Ted

    1. Re:Professor and Pat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cool... let's translate that... I'm looking for something useful to do with my spare time

  7. Abandon A+ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I am on the advisory board for the Computer Technology program for a vocational school Maine, and we are trying to suggest moving on from A+ and teaching something else like Cisco or whatever. The market is way too competitive now for anyone with an A+ certification to survive. Example, why take a computer to a repair shop when you can get a brand new tower from Dell for $200? In my area, there are virtually no computer repair shops left. The only one left solely relies on support to companies and providing classes for its income. Really, who needs to know the base address for a parallel port anymore? Even a PS/2 port at that now.

    1. Re:Abandon A+ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow! Computer tech vocational school in Maine? Blows the mind, man, blows. the. mind.

    2. Re:Abandon A+ by Technician · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In my area, there are virtually no computer repair shops left.

      That is because the repairs (Windows bugs) have become too complex to effectively troubleshoot and repair. To do the job right requires too much time for which you can't bill. After spending a day attempting to recover a Windows box without a reformat, I learned the level of futility. I now too, reformat, reinstall when working with Windows boxes. The software is too complex to repair after a modern malware attack.

      The amount of undocumented crap that can hose the sytem is too great.

      Here is a typical reason to reformat instead of repair..
      1 factory Windows XP install
      1 aftermarket freeware photocopier (Scanner to printer)
      1 demo factory loaded photo editor

      Photocopier works fine, until the need arose one day to crop a photo to post online.. Tried the default photo editor.. the 30 day trial expired a year ago, would you like to spend $$$ for the full version? No.

      Now the photocopier is broken. Attempts to photocopy simply launch the dead photo editor as it hijacked the TWAIN driver and launches upon any scan. Removing the photo editor does not fix the photocopier. Windows reports the photo editor is missing, would you like help searching for it?

      How to fix??? How much time would be required to find where the TWAIN driver has been repointed. It's buried in the registery and not documented.. It's reformat to fix. Anything else is a massive waste of time.

      The wife doesn't want to lose her settings and email so this has been broken for about 2 years. Photocopier functions and photo editing is done on the Linux box now because it works.

      The wife is migrating away from Windows as it decays and she too looks for the tools that work.

      To learn to like Linux, simply use Windows for a while.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    3. Re:Abandon A+ by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Where at?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    4. Re:Abandon A+ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Careful what you wish for...the Cisco program sounds great but precious few teachers are qualified to teach it and engage the students. The Cisco system has a HUGE dropout rate. The idea id great, but it's hard for high schools without a special teacher, one who has both the skills and ability to keep the students interested.

      Their companion PC Basics course (A+, in fact) is all online and virtual labs, the students never touch a PC. Agree that A+ is just a foundation, but nobody throws away a PC because Windows crashed or the HDD is to small...

    5. Re:Abandon A+ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you're a dumbass? Just uninstall the application and reinstall? You *DO* keep copies of every installer in a separate "_setups" folder? Right? You *DO* take the extra five minutes to locate the actual installer and not just the web installer, right?
      So you can easily re-install Firefox 2.0.0.16 when FF3 turns out to be a turkey for example? Right?

    6. Re:Abandon A+ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I beg to differ. After getting my A+, I was hired for a 5week contract with an adult education college, and shifted that into a permanent position with a nonprofit, supporting ~200 WinXP/Win2k machines, and I use the A+ knowledge (and other tricks) EVERY DAY. We can't and won't buy new stuff when the old ones break. I agree that things are becoming more disposable, but is that really better? Cheap leads to cheap, in all senses of the word.

      (Anon coward bc I'm @ work)

    7. Re:Abandon A+ by PainKilleR-CE · · Score: 1

      Even companies with licenses to get their computers repaired still do in-house IT work that can be helped with an A+ certification, and the A+ certifications have changed for the better in recent years.

      Of course, it is going to depend on your particular job market. For example, a friend of mine went through the hoops to get a number of certifications, including A+ and Cisco certs (and MS certs), and the best job he could get initially was phone support. As he went through 2 of these jobs (which in one case was outsourced after he left, and in another case centralized from east- and west- coast locations to a single central time zone location), he eventually gained job experience that got him a better job doing actual IT work with room for upward movement.

      The strange thing was that someone in the review board for the job actually said he got the job because one of his previous employers was the company from which they bought a number of their computers. So even though his job description was basically to read a script (and he got in trouble if someone noticed that he was solving problems off-script), just having worked for (major computer OEM) was enough for a better job position to open up.

      Of course, in order to continue to move up he had to complete his college degree, but with the benefits he received from his employer that was a much easier proposition than it had been previously (and he recently received his bachelor's).

      --
      -PainKilleR-[CE]
  8. Books by matria · · Score: 4, Informative

    Talk to the people at O'Reilly, especially their Safari bookshelf. They might be able to cut you a deal for educational use.

    http://oreilly.com/
    http://safari.oreilly.com/?cid=orm-nav-global

    1. Re:Books by Fishbulb · · Score: 1

      Be sure to get the Power Drill book.

      It's not a textbook, per se, but a really great reference to have around.

    2. Re:Books by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suggest looking at these guys:
      http://www.lvp.com/

      You can pick whatever topic you want to have. These are books written for teachers, in some cases written by teachers. They have teachers resource guides that will point out portions of the material that are often confusing to students. Additionally, they have pre-made tests, projects, and assignments. This will help a person who has been thrown into the position with little preparation time. It also helps when you are sick and need a sub.

      You can select the topics you wish to cover depending upon your target audience. Whether that means using an Office suite, graphic artist packages, or programming with Java is up to you.

    3. Re:Books by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know how outrageously expensive college textbooks are, I have no idea if high school - level books are as bad. That being said, O'Reilly's Head First .... series is pretty good. I was looking for a book to tutor a couple of high school-age students in programming when the first one "Head First Java" came out. I went through it, and had serious doubts, mainly because it wasn't my style. It seemed like the "least-worst" choice at the time, but it turned out to be a great choice. The students not only had a better time with it, but learned more and more thoroughly than I expected.

      So I agree with the parent poster wholeheartedly; contact O'Reilly and if O'Reilly can give you an affordable deal, it will be worth it.

    4. Re:Books by Frankenshteen · · Score: 1

      The unlimited safari bookshelf is an indispensable IT reference. In this case one key would be a great source of curricula for the instructor.

      --
      "It's a doughnut stuffed with M&M's. That way when you finish the doughnut, you don't have to eat any M&M's."
  9. Do you really think it is the case... by Eric+Smith · · Score: 4, Insightful
    that the basics have changed so much recently that four-year-old computer textbooks are obsolete?

    Sure, there's always new stuff, but it's more important to have a good grasp of the fundamentals than to know the latest buzzword bingo stuff that probably won't last long anyhow.

    1. Re:Do you really think it is the case... by WillKemp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      that the basics have changed so much recently that four-year-old computer textbooks are obsolete?

      The basics haven't changed much in the 30 years since i did my first programming course (as part of maths at tech college).

      The hardware's changed a lot - and the languages have evolved a bit. But the fundamentals of understanding the subject are still the same.

    2. Re:Do you really think it is the case... by Xamusk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm in an electronics engineering college course, and I'm using a 1976 textbook. Most of the other ones are from the 80's and the newer ones are revisions from originals of about the same age or even older.

      Of course a computer class changes much more often, though the basics (and that's what you want) change much less often. Keep the basics and update hardware specs and you have everything you need.

      If what you want is a programming course, you could take a look at the python programming language. It's easy to learn the syntax and quite powerful. Also, there are many free (and good) textbooks available online, like the Python tutorial itself and Dive Into Python

    3. Re:Do you really think it is the case... by wetdogjp · · Score: 1

      The books I have do include some helpful information. A NIC is still a NIC, for instance. But they use screenshots from Windows 98 or 2000, describe at length how to deal with IRQs on ISA slots, and expound the virtues of that up-and-comer: USB.

      Really, they're hit or miss. I can probably photocopy some choice bits from these things, but they're largely outdated. Again, the *newest* are four years old; the oldest are about ten.

    4. Re:Do you really think it is the case... by _Nuke_ · · Score: 1

      Absolutely concentrate on the basics...

      I wish that all of my colleagues would read Charles Petzold's "CODE - The Hidden Language of Computer Hardware and Software"

      It covers, (in short order), everything that they don't seem to understand about how computers actually work!

  10. Think Python by atrus · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Your class topics seem so wide and varied, but if you're going to do an introductory programming class, try this book:

    http://www.greenteapress.com/thinkpython/.

    Its a great introductory programming book, focused on Python. Its coming out in print form soon, if that is a requirement.

    1. Re:Think Python by story645 · · Score: 2, Informative

      A good supplement (and stand alone if the students already have some programming experience) is Dive Into Python, one of the best python books around. It's free and available in print form. Its' a great intro book 'cause it's really well organized such that the chapters really build on each other for the most part. It's also awesome 'cause the author walks through every example program, explaining what each part does and how it all works together.

      --
      open source modern art: laser taggi
    2. Re:Think Python by atrus · · Score: 1

      Yes, that would be my second suggestion. It all depends on the depth and level the original poster is taking it to. If you're going to run out of true beginner stuff, it may be advantageous to work in Dive Into Python (maybe select your own pieces into a course reader type of book).

    3. Re:Think Python by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meh, Python sucks as a programming language. As verbose as C/C++ with all the slowness of a large scripting language, wee!

      There are better scripting languages such as Lua which would be perfect. Once they learn that they will also have a leg-up on learning Javascript because it has a very similar feel (JS is poorly designed though so I wouldn't suggest learning that first). Then they can go about learning Python if they want to. Personally I see no reason to use that awful language. Perl would even make more sense because it provides a nice concise interface for text processing.

    4. Re:Think Python by bcrowell · · Score: 1

      They also have "How To Think Like a Computer Scientist..." titles in C++ and Java. All the books are free as in speech. User-submitted reviews would be welcome at theassayer.org (make an account, search by title on the initial string "how to").

  11. the real question: should you use a textbook by eean · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If your teaching a non-academic programming class, I don't really see the point in using a textbook. Decide on your language and find a good introductory book for it.

    1. Re:the real question: should you use a textbook by quizteamer · · Score: 2, Informative

      While this is a good suggestion, this teacher should really be checking with their school about his options. I work at a private high school and when I was choosing a textbook (for an intro physics class) I wanted to forget about the textbook idea and use Feynman and a variety of problems (some my own some borrowed). The idea was shot down because the administration was worried about not being reaccredited. I ended up using an older version of a popular college level text book and Feynman.

      --
      Live Long and Prosper
    2. Re:the real question: should you use a textbook by eean · · Score: 1

      Well vocational education is a bit different I'd think. I'd be surprised if there was an accredation system for high school computer programming or networking, unless maybe its the AP CS class (which it probably isn't, since there are specific textbooks for that).

  12. Google It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Teach your students how to use Google. Teach them how to use it to find the information they need - how to use it to troubleshoot problems.

    Don't bother with physical textbooks: it's a huge cost, and your students will not have access to them in the future when they need the information again.

    Even at University level, I do not buy Textbooks for IT related classes - my Google-Fu provides better information anyway.

    Also, consider e-books: Many school districts volume purchase access to E-books and Journals - they are an excellent source too.

    In short: Google. It may take them a while to learn, but it's a skill that they will be able to use forever - in every subject, not just IT.

  13. ALICE! by linhares · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You can use Randy's Alice and teach OO programing really easily.

  14. Science, not engineering by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While I don't think I'm in a good position to recommend specific books, I feel that from my experiences with my nephew (we're quite close) I should add my 2 cents.

    While you're in a great position to educate students with regards to computers and in reality, you could even prepare them for A+ and even Cisco or Juniper certification before they leave school, I believe that you should take advantage of the opportunity instead to teach them general computer knowledge and not specialized.

    I have worked indirectly with CompTIA and have even assisted in writing books for A+ certification, but I prefer to believe that students taking courses voluntarily in high school should be directed towards higher education in computer science instead of providing them with a certification track that could allow them to go straight to work after high school. I believe that the A+, Network+, CCIE etc... track is great for guys that never got the higher education and want to work their way up the food chain without going to the university at the age of 30.

    Don't get me wrong, preparing kids to take a CCIE which would get them $85,000-$125,000 a year the moment they graduate high school sounds great, but if they were able to achieve that by the time they left school, they could achieve so much more with a few years in the University.

    Now, if you're teaching in a place where the students might otherwise be doomed to a life working in factories in dead end jobs, or in a place where the percentage of students continuing to higher education is disappointing, you would do them a great favor preparing them for certifications and careers straight out of high school. But if you make it obviously profitable for students to just ditch college and the university because they are certified for jobs right out of high school, then you could in fact be robbing the world of the valuable resources of higher educated scientists.

    Teach the students computers as a science at the high school level, not as an engineering skill. If you're teaching at a proper (meaning public) high school as opposed to a vocational school, then computers should be approached in the same way as physics, biology or chemistry.

    The students should leave your class knowing where computers come from, they should understand the history of computers. Maybe you should try to teach a limited set of electronics including discreet math (or just general boolean logic), you could even communicate with the local junior college and find out if you can design a credit track where you can use their curriculum to allow students to take college level 1st and 2nd year courses in high school and then take their finals at the college. This is actually how my high school worked and because of that many of the students continued on to New York Institute of Technology with 90% of their first two years of university credits completed.

    Well, that was my two cents... I hope you find a good path to follow.

    P.S. - if you do end up going down the certification track instead, please choose useful ones. A+ and Network+ are for guys driving silly vans to peoples houses with stupid names like Geek Squad. They're the fat assed, butt crack hanging out of their jeans plumbers of the computer business.

    1. Re:Science, not engineering by Icarium · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I felt like punching something when the summary asked about how to teach kids to pass those certs. Teaching to the test rather than giving a solid grounding in the subject as a whole often leaves you with a bunch of certified idiots.

      Yes, some of those certs are useful, but anyone who studies exclusively to get one should honestly look at another career path.

    2. Re:Science, not engineering by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      ... but I prefer to believe that students taking courses voluntarily in high school should be ...

      I'm not tying to be obnoxious, but what exactly does that mean? That you have doubts about the truth of the belief, but that you're willfully suppressing them?

    3. Re:Science, not engineering by japhering · · Score: 1

      Don't get me wrong, preparing kids to take a CCIE which would get them $85,000-$125,000 a year the moment they graduate high school sounds great, but if they were able to achieve that by the time they left school, they could achieve so much more with a few years in the University.

      OH Please, cut the crap.. there is not a company in the world that would pay a fresh our of high schooler with no industry experience, no matter how many certifications they have, that type of money.

      If nothing else they'll out source for 10-25% of that amount.

  15. Books 4 years old and you're complaining??? by syousef · · Score: 3, Insightful

    First of all, how long do you think it takes for a book to get to market? Between 6 months and a year it's still brand spanking new.

    Secondly, even in computing good books become classics - Think K&R for C programming.

    Thirdly, newer books often just make minor modifications to the old text. Hell some just renumber pages to keep up sales. (Hell some teachers re-use course notes for years in a row at a time with little revision).

    Fourthly, 5 year old skills are still useful. Few if any companies are using bleeding edge stuff exclusively.

    Then there's the Net which is a great resource. There are a ton of free tutorials on the web for various things.

    If you've got access to 4 year old books and the Net, quit whining and looking for the most up to date books. You might as well ask for a pony.

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:Books 4 years old and you're complaining??? by Psychotria · · Score: 1

      If you've got access to 4 year old books and the Net, quit whining and looking for the most up to date books.

      I don't think anyone was whining.

    2. Re:Books 4 years old and you're complaining??? by sorak · · Score: 1

      Fourthly, 5 year old skills are still useful. Few if any companies are using bleeding edge stuff exclusively.

      Agreed. If they're willing to hire someone with a high-school diploma, and nothing more, to be their "tech guy", then they probably don't have anything bleeding edge. If the purpose is to prepare them for college, then focus on the fundamental concepts; i.e., the things that haven't changed in a decade or two, and they'll be more than prepared.

  16. Dont bother with the Certs by spire3661 · · Score: 1

    Certs can be useful in the real world, but skills are better. Use this time to teach them fundamentals, not how to pass an arbitrary test.

    --
    Good-bye
  17. Okay here is what you do.. by Layth · · Score: 1

    Go online. Search for some of your local college websites, or perhaps just some colleges with reputable CS programs.
    Go to their CS department pages, and search for their introductory CS courses.

    Look at the books that they're using!
    Take note of 4 or 5, then go to a library or bookstore or something and browse through the titles you can find.

    Judge how well each book tackles the material and then pick one.

  18. Wrong place to ask, it would seem by jandersen · · Score: 1

    Ye gods, what a load of snotty attitudes people seem to meet this actually very important question with. Have you guys forgotten that you were once beginners that could hardly find the "Any Key" on a keyboard? Even Americans are not born with the genetic code for how to use a computer; not unless evolution has picked up speed recently. Ok, so there are still only a few responses so far, hopefully the quality will improve.

    As for your question - I don't really know. I think it is a very important subject, too important to leave to those that can only view things from one perspective. But you are on the right track - teaching based on open source has the potential to teach more than just how to use computers or program; the open source philosophy and method is very similar to the scientific exchange of ideas, something I feel young people learn far too little of these days.

    Perhaps, instead of finding an already written book you could base the courses on a combination of hands-on lessons and your own notes + assignments? I suspect that is what I would do - let them learn about HW by taking apart (and re-assembling) a PC, teach them theory as the need arises from what they are doing. For OS theory, start with UNIX/Linux - it is in many ways the "purest" operating system and allows you to see how the hardware is represented in software. UNIX is a very good starting point for any excursions into all kinds of subjects in IT - filesystems, network theory, programming, system administration etc etc.

  19. High school by dj245 · · Score: 1

    High school is not a place to train job skills. Rather, it is almost intended to weed out the productive members of society from the unproductive. It is almost a test- if you can go to school regularly and complete coursework, you will probably be reasonably successful in life. You probably have the capacity to go to work regularly and complete your duties there. If you can't do this, chances are very good (though not definite) that your list of life accomplishments has already been completed.

    In short, teach how to learn new things and solve problems. The actual material will be again outdated in a couple years anyway. Job training should be done by employers.

    --
    Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
  20. FAIL by shiftless · · Score: 5, Insightful

    .. the third class should prepare juniors and seniors to enter the workforce and start a career in computers.

    The point of high school is not (or should not be) to prepare kids to be mindless worker drones. The point of high school is (or should be) to give them a good, basic education.

    1. Re:FAIL by plasmacutter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      .. the third class should prepare juniors and seniors to enter the workforce and start a career in computers.

      The point of high school is not (or should not be) to prepare kids to be mindless worker drones. The point of high school is (or should be) to give them a good, basic education.

      what a quaint starry-eyed aspiration.

      sadly, it hasn't been true since the record was the dominant audio medium.

      Back then they taught a good, well rounded education.

      This included math, science, and all that other "good stuff", but also things like shop which helped people build and maintain their own furnishings and tools.

      Shop went the way of the dodo (I wonder how many lobbies benefitted from that), and now PE and art are following.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    2. Re:FAIL by rohan972 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      .. the third class should prepare juniors and seniors to enter the workforce and start a career in computers.

      The point of high school is not (or should not be) to prepare kids to be mindless worker drones. The point of high school is (or should be) to give them a good, basic education.

      Got to back up plasmacutter here, that is quaint and starry-eyed.

      The reason we have so many mindless worker drones is partly ascribable to the schooling system being specifically designed to produce them. Have a read of "The Measurement of Intelligence", by Lewis Madison Terman, it should be enough to cure any scepticism regarding that claim. A look at the role of schooling proposed in "The Communist Manifesto" as a method of bringing about social change ought to challenge your thinking about the purpose of compulsory government schooling too. In case you think I'm just on a right wing rant though, I quote: "Communists have not invented the intervention of society in education; they do but seek to alter the character of that intervention, and to rescue education from the influence of the ruling class." [emphasis mine]

      The ruling class (communist or not) always seeks to control the thinking of the population in order to produce people who act for the benefit of the ruling class. The main tool to do this used to be religion, it has now been largely replaced with schooling. The west is largely ruled by government bureaucracy and corporations. School is controlled by government bureaucracy and corporations. We have a population that in general doesn't like to think too much and is very susceptible to propaganda. To think either that school doesn't have a role in producing such people or that it is somehow an accident strikes me as being overly trusting.

      If school was really for your benefit and not someone else's, why did it need to be made compulsory? I can understand the desire for free education, but why compulsory?

    3. Re:FAIL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The point of high school is (or should be) to give them a good, basic education."

      The point of highschool has since changed since more and more jobs are requiring higher education. Most kids care about surviving and not being poor.

    4. Re:FAIL by scum-e-bag · · Score: 1

      If school was really for your benefit and not someone else's, why did it need to be made compulsory? I can understand the desire for free education, but why compulsory?

      If schooling were not compulsory then kids would have more time to have kids, breeding like locusts, and a devolution leading to separation of our species would occur at a faster rate. In such a case, besides war, how do you propose that we rid ourselves of such people whilst maintaining a class who is indifferent to mindless servitude?

      --
      Does it go on forever?
    5. Re:FAIL by bob_jordan · · Score: 1

      If you are preparing them to enter the workforce then don't forget, there are a lot of books in the public domain such as,

              Art of War by Sun Tzu
              The Prince by Machiavelli

      Etc,

      Bob.

         

    6. Re:FAIL by japhering · · Score: 1

      .. the third class should prepare juniors and seniors to enter the workforce and start a career in computers.

      The point of high school is not (or should not be) to prepare kids to be mindless worker drones. The point of high school is (or should be) to give them a good, basic education.

      Unfortunately, all to often, the focus of high school instruction is to first get as many to pass the standardized tests and second, give them some skill that is needed in the immediate area. Neither activity teaches them to think.

      Of the four high schools in the local school district, three push trades telling the kids that they will be earning $40k to $60k right out of high school, failing to tell them that they don't qualify for that type of money until they have apprenticed for 2-5 years.

      The fourth high school pushes what they call college prepatory curriculum, but it to focuses on regurgitation of information rather than thinking.

      And don't get me started on the whole concept of "test correction", the practice of letting students rework problems/questions they got wrong to recover upto half the missed points.

    7. Re:FAIL by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      If schooling were not compulsory then kids would have more time to have kids, breeding like locusts, and a devolution leading to separation of our species would occur at a faster rate.

      Are you saying that it's a eugenics program to prevent "undesirables" from breeding? Well, perhaps you've read the book I recommended "The Measurement of Intelligence" as it promotes exactly that view.

      In such a case, besides war, how do you propose that we rid ourselves of such people ...

      You appear to be advocating the necessity of genocide in the absence of controlled breeding programs. Your comment on their breeding causing "devolution" indicates that you hold them to be your genetic inferiors...

      ...whilst maintaining a class who is indifferent to mindless servitude?

      ...and you wish to keep them as a slave class. If you aren't joking, what an admission you have made in your post.

      To readers of this thread who don't wish to keep a class of slaves: You have seen scum-e-bag's post. Revolutions are fought for the very reason of freeing people from such rule. Defend your 2nd amendment rights citizens, but what good will they do you if you can't decide who or when to shoot? How can you be a free person if a government agent teaches you how to think?

      I am greatly in favor of education, but the idea that people need to live under compulsion for their own good is in my opinion completely incompatible with the ideals of a free society. Such a person is kept as a perpetual child, not a fate I wish for me or mine. Keep yourselves free.

    8. Re:FAIL by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      ...with which they should be able to pursue any basic career path that doesn't require extensive further education.

      You're way overreacting - teaching kids how to learn to prioritize tasks, multitask, and handle the other basic necessities of daily work is PART OF A BASIC EDUCATION. He' not teaching them to file endless stacks of paperwork, to kiss ass, to mercilessly backstab coworkers in a futile effort at advancement; THOSE are the 'worker drone' skills which they will quickly learn on-the-job wherever they end up.

      --
      -Styopa
    9. Re:FAIL by maxume · · Score: 1

      Now, now, there is no reason to call e-bag scum.

      I do appreciate the doublethink inherent in referring to the Constitution and revolutions while ranting against a slave class though.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    10. Re:FAIL by maxume · · Score: 1

      If the goal of grading is to sort students by arbitrary nominal scores, test correction is a bad thing.

      It might fit in very well with the goal of skill based promotion.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    11. Re:FAIL by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      The knowledge of basic computer use is fast becoming, if it has not already become, a requirement for any sort of office work or non-manual labor and is not so much preparation for a specialized career involving computers as much as it is general preparation for future employment. If students wish to specialize in software or computer engineering, programming, or some other career involving in depth knowledge of computational complexity, logic, and other selected topics in computer science or engineering then they should be encouraged to go on to study these fields in a university engineering program because CS or CE degree (rightly or wrongly) is used a resume filter when recruiters look to hire in those fields (i.e. no BS == no job in most cases). The basic high school course should focus on basic computer operation (file system, command line, Operating Systems - Linux, Networks, and understanding of basically how computers work) combined with typing which pays HUGE time dividends in college and at work when typing papers, e-mails, reports, etc. If there are advanced students in the class then they should be permitted, once they have completed the assigned work, to engage in self directed study of additional relevant topics (basic programming perhaps) that interest them under the direction of the teacher.

    12. Re:FAIL by wetdogjp · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I should have noted in the original question, but the program I teach is considered vocational. I'd love to fast-track my kids to CCNA certs, but that kind of material is above them right now. We pull kids from several surrounding schools for this program, which meets for 2 1/2 hours every morning. The other kids around here are fixing cars or learning to weld in their classes.

      If this was a standard high school course, well, I still wouldn't agree with you, but I would take your point.

    13. Re:FAIL by scum-e-bag · · Score: 1

      In such a case, besides war, how do you propose that we rid ourselves of such people ...

      You appear to be advocating the necessity of genocide in the absence of controlled breeding programs. Your comment on their breeding causing "devolution" indicates that you hold them to be your genetic inferiors...

      ...whilst maintaining a class who is indifferent to mindless servitude?

      ...and you wish to keep them as a slave class. If you aren't joking, what an admission you have made in your post.

      Didn't make myself clear. %)

      I'm certainly not superior to anyone. I contain many defects. Every single person in the world has something unique to contribute. The biggest issue I see is when the balance swings to far in one direction and when/if this directional change happens to quickly.

      The "ridding" of such people is not a "genocide" rather a re-organisation of the balance within society. If there are to many people who can't think, there will be problems, in the same way as if there are to many people who can think. We need to maintain a balance so as to move forward together. The biggest problem I keep seeing is how do we deal with things when the balance moves outside what is a stable area?

      Freedom of education, yes, instant freedom to not be educated would create a nightmare of a situation and in such case there would instantly be a class of people who have difficulty thinking for themselves and could potentially fall into a "mob rule" situation with nasty consequences.

      Revolutions are fought for the very reason of freeing people from such rule. Defend your 2nd amendment rights citizens, but what good will they do you if you can't decide who or when to shoot? How can you be a free person if a government agent teaches you how to think?

      This is along the lines that I was attempting to express. With a added concern to the pace of change... You have made a good point.

      Perhaps this helps clarify my thoughts a little? I will also need to find time to read that book you suggest. Not enough time in my day, if only there were 48 hours in a day *sigh*

      --
      Does it go on forever?
    14. Re:FAIL by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      I do appreciate the doublethink inherent in referring to the Constitution and revolutions while ranting against a slave class though.

      If I've been engaging in doublethink, I'll need you to make it clearer to me. Hopefully I just haven't expressed myself well: I wasn't intending to rant against the slaves as such, but against the method used to captivate and suppress them, in this case government schooling.

      Perhaps you are referring to the continued existence of slavery in the US after the revolution? It was slavery that was incompatible with the ideals of a free society and required doublethink.

    15. Re:FAIL by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      If there are to many people who can't think, there will be problems, in the same way as if there are to many people who can think.

      What problems does it cause if there are too many people who can think? How many people capable of thinking is the optimum number? What action should we take to prevent an excess supply of people who can think?

      If we have a secret agenda to prevent people from thinking, we don't have a free society (especially if it is successful). If we have an openly stated program of deliberately induced stupidity, who would participate?

      Freedom of education, yes, instant freedom to not be educated would create a nightmare of a situation and in such case there would instantly be a class of people who have difficulty thinking for themselves and could potentially fall into a "mob rule" situation with nasty consequences.

      We have a class of people who have difficulty thinking for themselves right now. My observation is that many people learn to dislike reading and history, for example, in school. But reading and a knowledge of history are in my view indispensable for those who desire self determination.

      I will also need to find time to read that book you suggest.

      http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/20662 To be fair, I think the people proposing and implementing these ideas often had the best of intentions they could. Eugenics was considered compassionate and a social obligation by some, and only its association with the Nazis really brought it into disrepute.

  21. HP has free online classes... by wheels4me · · Score: 1

    http://h30187.www3.hp.com/ Is a great place to learn some basics such as Intro to Word, Excel, Windows, Photoshop, etc. I have an MCSE & MCDBA. The books for those are pricey. Having a cert is better than not having a cert. Give them the goal of getting an A+ cert, or at least training for it. Hardware is the same all over and not vendor specific. And yes, for MacBoy in the wings with a rebuttal, it still has a keyboard, monitor, harddrive, memory & CPU just like every other PC.

  22. Make your own by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The best books I've ever used (these were at the college level) were just bound stacks of paper that had been written over the years by the instructor. They weren't officially published by a publisher, but if you know what you're talking about, and you know what's important to you and your class, then you can easily gather enough material to fill a half inch binder with paper.

    Not to mention, I still have the books that I'm referring to, and still use them. They make great references.

    Most published computers books are entirely too dense and wordy. Just write the important parts down, fill in with lecture and as you go, and you'll be fine. It doesn't sound like you're teaching advanced micro-programming at MIT, you just need something cheap and functional.

  23. Right idea, wrong delivery. by B5_geek · · Score: 1

    Why bother with dead-tree versions? There are thousands of FREE online tutorials/guides/how-to/wikis that these kids can learn from. For any of them that don't have 'net access at home, use the schools copiers/printers to give them something to bring home.

    Teach them dammit, don't just hand out a book and hope they figure it out. Earn the right to be called a teacher. Perhaps then when the smart ones ask "Why..?" you can really answer.

    --
    "The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
    1. Re:Right idea, wrong delivery. by pbhj · · Score: 1

      Why bother with dead-tree versions? There are thousands of FREE online tutorials/guides/how-to/wikis that these kids can learn from. For any of them that don't have 'net access at home, use the schools copiers/printers to give them something to bring home.

      Because it's far better to mash together a load of disparate resources and infringe peoples copyright(*) spending [unpaid] hours copyrighting/editing/publishing/printing your own booklets than it is to get a consistent well rounded resource?

      * a lot of stuff that is "free" online is just paid for with advertising (like non-member Slashdot); because it's freely available online doesn't mean you can print it out for free. A school teacher will likely have to get a specific note of the copyright holders approval.

      Teach them dammit, don't just hand out a book and hope they figure it out. Earn the right to be called a teacher. Perhaps then when the smart ones ask "Why..?" you can really answer.

      You need to teach them, but whilst doing it you're teaching the most able to teach themselves. The ultimate goal being that they can just pick up a text book, match with other resources (in which I include the teacher/lecturer) and learn by themselves. Not using a textbook is like not using code libraries, IMO.

      I don't ever recall (since high school, from 11 years #) having a teacher/professor/lecturer that didn't use a textbook. Some of those wrote the textbooks they used, but they all used them. Using a textbook, doesn't mean you teach from it, incidentally, often it means "read chapters 13-14 in Nelkon before the next lesson" or "if you're struggling with this work through the problems in Reed&Wright at the end of chapter 4 and see me next time", etc..

      # I've done a B.Sc(Hons) and a graduate level Diploma.

  24. Don't use textbooks by supernova_hq · · Score: 2, Informative

    As a former High School InfoTech student and current College Programming Student, I really don't find textbooks that useful at all. Truthfully, the only use I ever get out of textbooks (other than reading the questions the teacher's assign) is reading the examples and the using the reference section.

    Not only do examples and references exist on the web, but it is SO much easier to use a reference with hyperlinks than to have to jump between pages of a book

    If you really need some good ideas I have a list of resourses:
    - CodeSyntax - Basis syntax for Java,C,Python,etc
    - JavaBat - different levels of Java puzzles (ajax handles compiling/etc, no software required)
    - Eddie's Basic Guide to C Programming
    - ANSI Dictionary - unbelievably nice ANSI dictionary, fully cross-referenced.

    Consider setting up a wiki-book full of information, labs, excersies and tutorials. This is a computer class after all and information should be easy to find without needing to pack yet ANOTHER heavy book around. To make your job easier, you could allow the students to add stuff to the wiki (log activity of course), even setting up a page where they can add useful websites they've found.

  25. What is "High School" inexactly? by Maelwryth · · Score: 1

    Can someone give those of us from a different part of the world a set of ages. High school in NZ means 13yrs to 17yrs. What age are we talking about?

    --
    I reserve the write to mangle english.
    1. Re:What is "High School" inexactly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      9-12 grade. generally 14-18yrs. Very similar to NZ

    2. Re:What is "High School" inexactly? by belmolis · · Score: 1

      High school in the US ends with grade 12. Students are typically 18 at the end of this year. In some districts, high school consists of grades 9-12. In others, grades 7-9 are housed in a junior high school and high school consists of just grades 10-12. Grade 9 is referred to as "freshman" year and the students are called "freshmen". Grade 10 is "sophomore" year, grade 11 "junior" year, and grade 12 "senior" year.

    3. Re:What is "High School" inexactly? by japhering · · Score: 1

      Last 4 years of public education typically attended by 15-19 year olds. Required completion if one wishes to get any meaningful job in the US or go on to University.

  26. Documentation, not textbooks by holophrastic · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I've never been a fan of textbooks -- especially in scientific fierds. They tend to be notoriously out-of-date, and wildly inaccurate even when new. Too much effort is spent making things seem easy, or otherwise dumbing down the content to the point where it becomes meaningless.

    But computer disciplines come with a natural advantage: documentation. All of the avenues that you are exploring have solid documentation. Not only is this documentation accurate, it's almost always up-to-date.

    I'd suggest skipping the textbooks and giving your students the real experience. Teach them how to handle reams and reams of documentation across multiple avenues.

    The good thing, from your side, is that you don't have to give them the most complicated advanced stuff off the top. There are a lot of small steps to be taken with any documentation -- from the equivalent of a "hello world" program and configuring routers all the way up to more complicated yet still manageable aspects like protocols and cross-interactions.

    So I'd suggest that you select a few disciplines as you have, grab real live official documentation -- lots of it -- classify them according to complexity -- and by complexity I mean the requirement of additional working systems -- and take your students through actually doing something small.

    Small things can be incredibly simple when you read the instructions. Documentation is nothing more than that. I can think of no better skill-set in the computer world than to gather three-thousand pages of documentation on your topic, locate the six pages that apply to your current project, follow them precisely, and then explore their surroundings to see the magic possibilities of yoru new-found power.

    That kind of skill easily propegates itself as one bit of knowledge allows you to explore the next. And since it's real actual documentation, it's all 100% (well, let's pretend) correct and useful. Your students will be able to legitimately list things that they've done with little more than quality supervision.

    1. Re:Documentation, not textbooks by wmguy · · Score: 1

      I never had to figure anything out using documentation until my senior year in college...up until that we (the students) were always spoon-fed information. You should have seen the outcry from the other students when the TAs said "So you read the manual and don't know how to do this? Maybe you should read the manual again." That was one of my most effective classes in college because it focused on learning things yourself, but I am not sure it is the best way to get people introduced to computers/programming.

    2. Re:Documentation, not textbooks by RobBebop · · Score: 1

      One of the most valuable lessons that I got while learning to program was spending a few weeks learning how to implement various sorting algorithms. This was quiessencial, in my mind. BubbleSort, QuickSort, MergeSort, and a number of other ones... we spent days learning the theory and then had to code them up.

      Point is... coding them up is the simple part. Also, writing the code is an impractical task that you'd never actually do at your job (either use a library or copy it from somewhere else!). The value was learning how many different ways there are to do the same task... and that their are major costs in memory or processor associated with each of them.

      So, the reason I am responding to a post that says "the value is in the documentation" is because I think it would be great to teach sorting theory and then distribute code for each algorithm and get the students to (a) fix minor bugs that have been placed in it, (b) write documentation for it, or (c) implement a program that demonstrates appropriate usage of the different sorting techniques.

      As an aside... I coded BubbleSort before cracking any programming textbooks addressing the topic and before any formal instruction from professors. So, when I went through the exercise of "learning" about BubbleSort in class it was enlightening and interesting to learn that the "obvious" solution to a problem is absolutely the worst way of solving it. Finesse is mandatory!

      --
      Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
    3. Re:Documentation, not textbooks by metalhed77 · · Score: 1

      Docs are good for when you want to know how something works in a specific way. They SUCK for the big picture.

      If you want to know how ping works, read man ping and the ICMP spec. If you want to know how networking works, you can't just read a bunch of man pages.

      Longer form works are necessary because they include real world experiences and tactics. The documentation for this stuff usually resides in books. The good news is, lots of these books are published free online. In fact, a lot of the online docs for programming languages are published books that are also free online.

      --
      Photos.
    4. Re:Documentation, not textbooks by voodoosoup · · Score: 1
      trying to get high school students to read a textbook is bad enough. trying to get them to read product documentation? good luck.

      I'd suggest that you select a few disciplines as you have, grab real live official documentation -- lots of it -- classify them according to complexity -- and by complexity I mean the requirement of additional working systems -- and take your students through actually doing something small.

  27. high school, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. what would be best to learn for sys admins.
    It's highschool, right? We hear day in and day out that noone has time to teach the 3-R's any more. Might I suggest Algebra and Trig? They can learn sys admin in vocational school... Yeah, I know, your course is in computers, but still. Highschool is for learning basic general education.

    2. I'm currently finishing up a PhD in engineering at Berkeley, and I haven't used a course text in a couple of years. The profs have their own notes/articles/papers/etc they want to work from.

  28. Are you sure you've got the right focus? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    If your goal is to get these kids 'ready for the workforce' as juniors or seniors in highschool, you may want to focus on data entry and technical writing, or perhaps following pre-made guides to fix/replace known hardware and software problems.

    Realistically though, you are not going to prepare them for the workforce at this point if you're trying to teach them about, "hardware, operating systems, networking, security, and more." That is, frankly, remedial, and outside of certain scopes, the average worker does not use it at all.

    The only ones able to go into the workforce at that point will have already taught themselves, and you can't easily 'teach' interest.

    As for certifications - most of which are not actually worth anything in the real world except when comparing lists of identically-qualified individuals for a call or initial interview. Not useless, but not great. You'll still need experience to even attempt to compete, unless it's an entry level job. Do not teach these if you can help it.

    Now, let's step back a bit. What is your real focus?

    Is it REALLY to get them ready to go to work, to have marketable skills? If so, your best bet is - sadly - to find a book on excel and/or powerpoint. They don't need a copy for themselves - in fact, they shouldn't have one. Just make sure they know how to google/use the built in help, because it's more valuable to teach them how to find info, than how a single version of a single app works. Half your class will likely be bored because it's too easy, and the other half will never understand if someone else doesn't show them exactly what to type. ... however, powerpoint and excel go a long way in almost any office position. There's many books on learning Office apps, so take your pick there.

    On the other hand, if your goal is to get them ready to go to college and become involved in the IT industry post-degree, that's better - but harder. I would recommend picking a scripting language and show them the basic concepts you can find in any "Intro to Computer Science"-style book, regardless of the language it uses. Perl and Ruby might be a good choices, as they're somewhat forgiving. Granted, you may want to even try JavaScript, so all your examples/homework can (easily) be performed in a web page and thus graphical and more interactive. The downside to all of this is - it'd probably be difficult to find a book to help you out. I can't think of one that would give you a lesson plan. You'd be tasked with doing much of the legwork yourself.

    Still, I think that would be the most valuable route.

  29. Foundations are critical by thogard · · Score: 1

    I figure less than 1 out 100 people have what it takes to be a very good programmer. The foundations for them will be different than the foundations needed for other students and the wrong ones can create a sort of brain damage that will take years to unlearn and I'm not sure some bad thought processes can ever be unlearned.

    I would start the 1st week or two off with a very basic system of what the computer is doing.... i.e. moving numbers around. Go find a computer book from the 1950s for ideas on how to do that. Next build on the ideas that all software builds on complex layers of other software. Show them assembly code (but not x86 ick), basic, C, logo, and lisp for a start. Explain why they all have their uses and see how they react. Show them that the simplest problem involves many levels of depths and then explain how different groups each have their own area like networking, cpu design, programers, operators and maintenance coders.

    For intro to programming, the IDE makes more of a difference than the language. Its one reason VB was used a while back since it had an easy to learn interface and they could write simple programs that did simple things and focus on that and not how to get something compiled. Most of todays IDEs are so full featured they can be hard to use for the level you are looking at. Just try not to pick a language that encourages programming brain damage (like Basic in all of its forms)

  30. How about two more free texts? by leftie · · Score: 2, Informative

    Two more free (as in b... uh... orange soda) one is a python textbook...

    "A Byte of Python
    Introduction

    "A Byte of Python" is a book on programming using the Python language. It serves as a tutorial or guide to the Python language for a beginner audience. If all you know about computers is how to save text files, then this is the book for you...."

    That's one's in 5 different formats and 16 different foreign languages

    http://www.swaroopch.com/byteofpython/

    The other is "Lessons In Electric Circuits
    hosted by ibiblio
    A free series of textbooks on the subjects of electricity and electronics

    http://openbookproject.net/electricCircuits/

  31. This may sound stupid but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let them make their own! Since basic computing is just that, basic, why not let them find their own examples on the Internet and in the library. Make it part of their grade to find good examples of whatever topic you are teaching.

    Part of a good basic foundation for computer sciences should be learning the skill to find information on topics you aren't familiar with.

    I'm in my 40's now and without that basic skill I'd still be writing COBOL code on a VAX somewhere. This business changes too fast to teach any specific language or technology to be useful in their futures.

  32. For OO programming by Fjodor42 · · Score: 1

    While there has been extensive debate here, over whether to teach Java or not, I have found that if one wishes to teach/learn object-oriented programming, not only does Java do a good Job, but Objects First with Java - A Practical Introduction using BlueJ by Barnes & Kölling really drives through the concept of classes and how they relate to objects. This is done through BlueJ, and in that regard, BlueJ is actually a very nice tool. One should not fail to mention to the students, though, that for real coding, emacs, vi, eclipse, <insert favourite editor/IDE here> would be favourable, but for a basic understanding of the nature of OO, BlueJ is great.

    --
    "The number you have dialed is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
    1. Re:For OO programming by ozphx · · Score: 1

      No, Java would be a terrible idea.

      Java code generally takes object orientation and builds it up layer after layer until your are foaming at the mouth with ISubEnumeratorFactoryConcreteImplBridges. I cringe every time I have to use an API which has been ported from Java.

      Teach them bloody LOGO. Chances are that even that will be too confusing.

      --
      3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
    2. Re:For OO programming by Fjodor42 · · Score: 1

      This is, however, where I disagree. It is perfectly doable to create mostrosities as that one, but to do so without hurting your own notion of self would require to be only too superfluously versed in programming in the first place...

      At any rate, I'd like to see the the high school class where someone might be tempted to implement such nonsense. Java has the potential to be bloody ugly, as does any language. Part of what makes people let it behave in such abominable ways, is too strong a belief in OO being just sequentialism with some syntactic sugar. A remedy might the the mentioned, elementary, textbook ;-)

      --
      "The number you have dialed is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again."
    3. Re:For OO programming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Smalltalk is the purest of object-oriented languages and the easiest to teach and learn. The syntax is clean and it forces the student/learner/programmer to approach problems from a different perspective. A Little Small (http://www.littlesmalltalk.org and http://www.amazon.com/Little-Smalltalk-Timothy-Budd/dp/0201106981) and GNU Smalltalk (http://smalltalk.gnu.org/) are freely available. A Little Smalltalk was originally published with a textbook. If you prefer an integrated development environment, try Cincom Smalltalk Suite (http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/cincom/blogView).

  33. Unix Administrator Guide by ulor · · Score: 1

    This book has been useful to me in the past and has quite a decent range of various subjects. It might be a bit technical for some high school students, but in an academic setting w/ some hand holding most could do it.

    1. Re:Unix Administrator Guide by ulor · · Score: 1

      Or the Linux Administrator's Guide I guess is more current. I havent read it, but I did read the Unix one.

  34. Scan last year's books, and put 'em..... by crhylove · · Score: 1

    Scan last year's books, or whatever supplemental material you may want to add, and put it in a pdf and onto an sd card and into a Nintendo DS.

    Cost: $100 per student for all books, updated, with additional supplemental materials every semester.

    They get: One small book to carry with everything of theirs in a backpack, all their information bookmarked or copy pasted clearly with a stylus.

    I get: One less thing to worry about at the PTA meeting.

    --
    I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
  35. HtDP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hands down, the best introduction to programming I've encountered is How to Design Programs. The full text is available online, though you can buy a copy from MIT Press if you really want.

    Nominally, HtDP uses Scheme, but it's such a tiny subset of the language that it barely needs the name. Instead, the book focuses on the fundamentals of programming. HtDP's philosophy is data-centric. Instead of directly presenting recursion, for example, it presents recursive data structures, from which recursive functions naturally follow.

    Last year, I was a TA for a first-year CS course which used this book; the course was phenomenally successful (as always). On the other end of the spectrum, HtDP has been used successfully in high schools and middle schools as well.

  36. This may seem stupid but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let them write their own! Make it a part of their grade to find examples of the topic you are teaching from the internet, the library or the pile of old books you have.

    Your classes seem to be teaching "Basic Computing" and part of the basics is how to find information on topics you are unfamiliar with. Without that basic skill, I'd still be programming in COBOL on the last dying VAX in the city.

    Maybe buy a few good books and make a library they can reference rather than 100 of the same book.

  37. an other idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For your lower level intro to programing class your own notes and information from web pages that you Copy, paste and print, Should get do fairly well. Yes you could get a "Class Set" of a single book but as for budget your understanding and ability to find the odd answers to strange questions, along with a set of Highlighters/ markers/ Color Pencils to hand trace code with would be more useful.

    For the advanced classes a bunch of random books on different languages you have access to more complicated topics seems to work the best for a advanced classroom situation where students are possibly more self guided as they surpass your skill level or have a basic handle of general computer programing and algorithms. So you might have a few A+, MSCE, Linux, etc books in the class for them to take a look at and decide what interests them. I would talk to Local Collages about what they expect there computer students to know and at what level, So you can try and keep the amount of repeated teaching to a minimum. It is nice when your teacher tells you that you should be in a CS 266 Class because you know linked lists, and sorting algorithms, indeed of taking the CS 160 class where you Learn If, then else, case and variable types. And for schools outside your area they should have a portfolio of programs that show what they know so they can go to an adviser and get into the proper classes at that school, hopefully with little repeats.

    That type of format for a advanced class also allows for you to point those who are not expecting to go to collage (Something that you should always encourage that they do) to be more focused on certifications. I would also see what kind of hoops would have to be gone threw for a student to take a certification at a local testing site, and what if any help the school district can help with the financial aspects (One of the big reasons students are not continuing to collage)

  38. I googled 'free computer books' ... by sydbarrett74 · · Score: 3, Informative

    ... and found hundreds of links. For the cost of printing out a PDF, you can give each student his/her own text. If you contract with a local Kinko's or printing shop, you could have these printed and bound for minimal cost -- far cheaper than the $40-50 that a computer book would cost at Barnes and Noble.

    --
    'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
    1. Re:I googled 'free computer books' ... by JAF30 · · Score: 1

      There are hundreds of online resources by professional companies that are designed to help students pass certifications like A+,Net+. Along with many if not all Microsoft certifications as well. Preplogic has many of these in PDF format, even if you bypass the free links that sydbarrett74 (74307) found. The Preplogic files are vetted by editors and are very up to date. Other sources you might check for online documents are Comptia and Microsoft themselves. Recently I used a PDF study guide downloaded from Comptia to pass the remote service technician certification. Also working with a PDF or other electronic files have one huge advantage over printed materials. If a student looses their copy, all you have to do is print another. It also allows you to always have enough for your students no matter how many or few you might have. Check some of the sites that offer sample questions from the certification tests or even buy a Exam cram book and use the questions as homework. This will give your students up to date questions. And also give them plenty of opportunities to see questions that might be on the tests themselves.

    2. Re:I googled 'free computer books' ... by wetdogjp · · Score: 1

      Not to fear, my Google-fu is strong. I tried searching for free books, but I didn't find anything that fit well with my classes. The books were either way, way too far advanced, way too basic, or way too specialized.

      I see lots of programming book suggestions in the comments, and considering the resources available for that, I wish I was teaching a programming class. But I'm not. We're much more geared towards admin type work.

      However, if you have any specific books that you've found in your Google searching, I'd love to see them.

  39. Yup. The word is "math" by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1
    Or maths for the English. I believe studies in the UK have shown that the A level grade in maths - roughly equivalent to the final year of math in high school - is a better predictor of success in tech jobs than a degree. The reason is blindingly obvious with 6/6 hindsight - your level of math when you start any tech course, including first degree, determines how quickly you will pick things up. By the time you are 18, it's probably too late to learn essential math.

    I am eternally grateful to the progressive teachers at my school who ensured that we learned binary, octal and the boolean operations at the age of 12. That's partly because knowing those things got me a summer job in a mainframe facility at the age of 15, but also because, having got that summer job, I could start to understand what it was all about. Being able to read octal kick started me far more than a knowledge of BASIC ever did.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:Yup. The word is "math" by maxume · · Score: 1

      It could well be that the math scores correlate strongly with overall intelligence, and that the math knowledge, while beneficial to the tech education, is secondary to the overall intelligence.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  40. excuse me but... by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 1

    Any textbooks we use would need to cover quite a breadth of material, such as PC hardware, operating systems, networking, security, and more.

    And more? Either you are only going to touch on each topic ever so briefly, or the whole course is misguided. There is no way anyone is going to learn anything useful, let alone anything that would get them hired, by learning all of these topics at once. They all deserve their own class, and there are plenty of books on specific topics.

    Certification tests usually come with their own set of guides for teachers.

  41. I have a suggestion by 2Bits · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you are a high school teacher, may I put in my suggestion here?

    For me, if you really want to teach about programming (and I think teaching high schoolers to get certification is plain wrong), a high school teacher should inspire students to want to go into that field (or other scientific fields, as a matter of fact). High schoolers can learn the language syntax just fine, any language, and do the debugging too. You can give an introduction to most languages, and they will pick up and do it. The issue here to make them pick up the interest in doing it, and that's the hard part.

    I remember when I was at high school, we had that programming course (optional class), where the teacher was teaching us programming Logo on those 8086 machines without hard disk. We needed to have a boot floppy to boot up, then another floppy for loading the program. The teacher thought he was God, we were a class of 40, and the class lasted one hour and half. He refused to create more boot disks so that everyone can boot at the same time, he just had one, gave it to one student at a time, and waited behind the student until the machine boot up, and passed the floppy to the next student. By the time the last student finished booting up, the class is almost over. None of us had computer at home, that's the only place we had access to computer programming.

    Not only that, his moto was "Can't do", you can't do this, you can't do that. A few of us came up with some nice tricks to do things, and he threatened to fail us if we don't program his and his only way. For example, to draw a polygon, you must use his method, can't have anything else. We used the math learned in high school, including sin(), cosin(),etc, to program some fun stuffs, like creating a cube and move it inside a bigger cube, with proper perspective and angle and all that. 3D stuff. Yeah, you can do this with just high school math. Guess what, we would have failed the class, if we didn't accept to draw stupid picture by creating points and link the points together with stupid lines. All he wanted was the pictures so that he can print them, stick them on the walls, so that the principal could see his "achievements".

    In that class of 40, all of us hated programming by the end. Only two got into computer science at University, I was one, and that's because I wanted to program a computer that can talk to me, like HAL in "2001 : Space Odyssey" (yeah, I read that book at the time).

    A high school teacher can do much more than that, and don't underestimate the intellect of high schoolers, if you can rouse their interests.

    I think a competitive project between teams would be great, you not only teach programming, you also teach teamwork at the same time. You don't need fancy textbooks, just some introductory materials. Don't limit their imagination, encourage them to go beyond what you teach.

    In contrast, we had a great math teacher. Yeah, Mr. Belleau, if you are reading this, I'd like to say, thank you, although it's more than 20 years ago now.

    1. Re:I have a suggestion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In contrast, we had a great math teacher. Yeah, Mr. Belleau, if you are reading this, I'd like to say, thank you, although it's more than 20 years ago now.

      I have my high school math teacher to thank, or curse, for sparking my interest in computers back in the very early 1980s. That Commodore PET was the first computer I ever touched much less programmed. Calculate the roots of a quadratic equation, including imaginary roots. Thank you, Mr. Hall.

  42. Don't Underestimate Paper by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Given the choice, I prefer a paper source over an internet link nine times out of ten. A good book, properly indexed, is almost always superior to someones personal page or site on a topic. There are exceptions, but overall books offer better presentations. The physical format of a book is also easier on the eyes, and more accessible than a computer monitor.

    Hyperlinks are all very well for wiki-trips, but wiki-trips are really more for general knowledge learning. The question of the credibility of information on the internet also refuses to go away. Everyone by now has encountered information on wikipedia they know to be wrong or misleading. The same goes for websites. I don't mean to say that books and printed materials intrinsically have more credibility. But it's usually higher for them, though not by an order of magnitude.

    If you want specific, detailed information and training on a topic, you need to read a book.

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
    1. Re:Don't Underestimate Paper by markitect · · Score: 1

      Don't forget about assigning homework (please assign homework). Yes most students have computers and internet now, but if you require it for homework you may cause problems. Also only use certification books if they happen to line up with your course goals. There are lots of non-cert books out there that are good.

    2. Re:Don't Underestimate Paper by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      I find that I have to disagree. Paper books have advantages. But so do electronic versions.

      It's not that I don't like books. I do. I have a large library of books covering various subjects. I like curling up to a good book or sitting on the back porch with an interesting book and cool drink on a lazy summer day.

      But I've found myself turning to electronic books just as often as paper copies. I have electronic versions of a lot of my leisure books and, while not flawless, I find my old Zaurus a sufficient platform to read them. Paper books have the advantage of battery life and ruggedness. But my Zaurus packs a lot of books in a compact form factor, offers a night light, and auto-bookmarks.

      Subject matter is also important. I find my technical books, while nice to have in my library, aren't as convenient as electronic copies. I have an assortment of animal books on my bookshelf. But I prefer the ability to search (and even copy-and-paste from) CD Bookshelf copies when working on something.

      As for credibility - that's an interesting subject in itself. I find the more subjective something is, the more likely you're going to find questionable information. I haven't had much trouble with IT related sources (unless I'm getting my IT advice from gamers). But I've seen some really popular kite books that are, frankly, crap. Putting ink to paper doesn't negate the fact that their information is incorrect both factually as well as in technical detail.

      When it comes to publishing information it's GIGO. The medium doesn't alter that. So if we're going to compare the merits of paper vs. pixels I'm inclined to go back to where we started - physical advantages of the medium.

  43. Do you want good programmers or trained monkeys? by RichardCochrane · · Score: 1

    I think, based on the books I have ordered for my office over the past 2 years, that greater value is had in teaching broader skills that are not nailed down to a particular language or technology since they tend to become out of date so quickly. My thinking is that a good programmer can program in (almost) any language, so there's more help to students to become better programmers than simply more knowledgeable C# or Java programmers. Some of the excellent books I've read include Dreaming in Code (providing a great understanding of why software development is hard, as well as providing an insight to the IT "heroes" that we should know about, i.e. Donald Knuth, Guido Rossum, Mitch Kapor, etc.), Code Complete (great all-round software development) and Joel on Software (for an assortment of IT-related discussion including a look at unicode). These books are fun to read and very interesting although Code Complete IS somewhat more technical and serious than the other two. I wish we had gone through such books when I was at school, but perhaps they would have been over my head at the time. I hope this helps, but use it or don't use it as you will :-)

  44. Head First Java by mark99 · · Score: 1

    Or "Head First (anything else)" (C# is pretty good). Very engaging, lots of geekey and slightly adult humor. Covers a lot of stuff.

    Some of the humor is a bit adult - might not fly in Texas, Missouri or anywhere else prudes have undue influence.

    1. Re:Head First Java by mark99 · · Score: 1

      BTW, my son loved it when he was 10. Learned a lot while reading in the car on long trips, then applied it when we got back home.

  45. Publicly funded? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Umm highschool is not going to prepare any of these kids for an IT job in the real world. Maybe as someone's monkey. Not having textbooks does suck tho, unfortunately that's the way many publicly funded schools are going.

  46. Only one answer by stevelinton · · Score: 1

    Knuth. What else is needed? If they can master all three volumes of Knuth they can teach themselves whatever else is needed from the manpages, or failing manpages by directly inspecting the binaries.

  47. Tanenbaum's book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tanenbaum's network textbook is good.

    http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Networks-4th-Andrew-Tanenbaum/dp/0130661023/

  48. Slashdot is overrated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    "It has a problem with presenting facts in an orderly manner and often won't elaborate on some of the more advanced topics."

    Kind of like...Slashdot!

  49. You are clearly stuck... by OneSmartFellow · · Score: 1

    ... between a rock and a hard place.

    I can tell (or at least surmise) from the nature of your post that the decision to teach to a certification is not yours. This is a shame - as so many other posters have indicated in no uncertain terms. While I *generally* agree with their sentiments, perhaps this advice will help as well:

    Don't be afraid to push the boundaries of what you have been tasked to do.

  50. For the class to prepare them for jobs... by IDtheTarget · · Score: 1

    Whenever I am looking for applicants for one of our software engineering jobs, I pay particularly close attention to the applicants' resumes. Considering that a resume is often the only chance for a person to showcase themselves to a prospective employer, it would be difficult to over-emphasize the importance of a resume. Specifically, I look for errors in spelling and grammar (their/they're/there, two/too/to, etc). Just about all word-processing software comes with spell-checking and grammar-checking built-in, and if an applicant can't even run spell-check on a resume, I won't bother to interview him or her. I don't believe that a person willing to submit a resume with such basic mistakes is going to have the attention-to-detail required to be an effective software engineer.

    My suggestion: in the class in which you intend to prepare the students for a job, ensure that you spend one or two class periods on ensuring that they have presentable resumes.

  51. RUTE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For a broad based sysadmin (Linux/Unix) book I would not hesitate to recommend Paul Sheer's Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition which is on line for free, as well as available in print: http://rute.2038bug.com/rute.html.gz

    It has basic coverage of hardware, binary, C, regular expressions, SMTP, IP, DNS etc.

    Ben

  52. BASIC causes brain damage? by matria · · Score: 1

    I started with the built-in BASIC-2 interpreter on my first computer (Amstraad). My very first computer book was the BASIC-2 manual from Amstraad. My very first program was the knock-knock joke involving bananas and oranges. My second program was one to help my teenage son with his "find the volume of a..." homework.

    From there I went to x86 assembly language using the shareware a86 assembler. Then C and C++ (Borland), VisualBasic, a bit of Cobol, Delphi, Java and perl, along with some dBase and Oracle-style SQL. Now 15 years after that BASIC-2 introduction, I do quite nicely as a freelance web developer using PHP, MySQL and Javascript/AJAX. I'm studying PDO and SQLite at the moment.

    I must say, though, that I haven't bought a book for eight or ten years; the Internet and an inexpensive Xerox laser printer satisfy all of my study and reference needs (now with a new cheap color laser printer it's great for printing out all of those free quilt blocks and free knitting and crochet patterns available online, too).

  53. Great Questions by salesgeek · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure what the best texts are these days, but I learned more about computers from the K&R C book and a book about writing games in BASIC back in the day. K&R taught me data types, pointers, functions and I/O -- all that stuff in one short, quick read.

    The BASIC games book was a fun way to learn to create programs - taking game rules and turning them into code. The games were all text mode, so it was about how to implement games like the Game of Life, Star Trek, Tic-Tac-Toe, Yahtze, Text Adventures and Battleship. Each game emphasized something different like boolean logic, loops, branching, subroutines, arrays, text processing and interacting with the user. It was a lot like learning to cook - you got to play what you wrote when you were done!

    Implementing the games from the BASIC book in C put the whole thing together. Breaking things down into functions, building reusable libraries and so on all were just natural ways to do things.

    Man, I wish we had Python back then. BASIC sure was limiting and C took lots of lines of code...

    --
    -- $G
  54. forget textbooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    so, I graduated from highschool a few years ago, and here's what I think -

    for the love of god, don't give them textbooks. nobody likes textbooks. just sit them down in the computer lab and go through the lesson step by step. hands on experience is best, for this subject in particular.

    also - allow the students who have a computer at home and already know all the stuff to 'test out' of each lesson, and go sit off by themselves and do something else. otherwise, they'll be screwing around on myspace or youtube and distracting the other kids who actually need to learn.

  55. Write You Own by SquierStrat · · Score: 1

    Seriously. I don't mean sit down and start writing. I mean come up with lesson plans and find or develop hand outs to give the kids. Teach them to find the information on their own! This is the most important skill you can give kids at any level of education.

    My experience is that textbooks are a cheap solution to a complex problem. They never answer the kids questions and are a one size fits all solution - which is one of the biggest problems with our education system in the US.

    If you give the kids a basic idea, and give them assignments and handouts that teach them to do things on their own, I would venture to say they will learn more AND perform better. Especially if you expect a lot from them.

    --
    Derek Greene
    1. Re:Write You Own by spirit55 · · Score: 1

      Good advice, Squierstrat! I used the textbook in math, wrote notes on the board in physics and in computer class, I provided my notes as word pro docs on the school network. Printing them out for the kids works well but expect a lot of loss. Talk to other teachers, perhaps in other schools. Experienced teachers may well know less about computer science than you do, but they do know more about kids, classes and where the kids will be going next year. Most teachers love to share their notes and exercises. Relax, you will be amazed at how little material you actually need because the kids need to play with each concept before going on to the text. Teaching to the whole class will only be 10% of class time; mostly you will be helping individuals to accomplish whatever task you have set. Grade school teaching is bottom-up. You begin by getting them to learn specific skills, build on that to do something of somewhat practical use, and perhaps eventually get to put across some abstract points. Kids very often think lessons are pointless. If you can work in something practical, you've got their interest. For example, one of my classes took on the job of creating the program booklet for the local junior hockey team.

  56. Computer Science: An Overview, 10th ed. by grshutt · · Score: 1

    I recommend J. Glenn Brookshear's Computer Science: An Overview. I read an earlier edition and thought it was brilliant: the writing is clear, the material is well organized, the book includes lots of examples, and thoughtful questions and exercises. Above all, Brookshear's text is enjoyable to read.

    Even if you decide not to assign it to your students, the book will be a great resource for you if you design your own course.

    See the book's website at http://www.aw-bc.com/brookshear/ and the author's personal website at http://www.mscs.mu.edu/~glennb/.

  57. Sort them out.... by spasmhead · · Score: 2, Informative

    Buy the books for CCIE and MCSE (or whatever MS call it now), one copy of each book for the entire class. Tell them if they don't pass both by the end of the year they get sent to the frontline in Iraq. If they pass that test they will be setup for a lifetime in IT.

    1. Re:Sort them out.... by ledow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sadly, that's a very blinkered view of education. Teaching to a particular company's product... Urk. I'd rather my kid just bunked off school than do that. There's a difference between gaining a particular certification (I hesitate to call an MCSE a qualification because it's more a memory test of unnecessary trivialities than anything else) in a limited area and actually TEACHING a subject. Teacher's should not ever be teaching towards a particular product in any area. Bad teacher's do ("Today, we'll be doing computers. The thing we'll use is Word. The only other things that exist are Excel and Powerpoint. Don't ask me how Air Traffic Control works because that's probably just a very complicated Word macro."). Good teacher's don't.

      If anything along those lines had been true of when I was at school, I would now be the proud owner of a BBC BASIC qualification, a Logo diploma and a Wordstar certification. Completely bloody useless. That's what the teachers thought we "needed" to know back then and fortunately they were soundly overruled and told to teach generics instead.

      You'd flood the market with MCSE's (and thereby making that qualification even less use than it is now) and not provide them with anything else, thus within five years, when things inevitably move on, there'd be nothing to distinguish those who "can" and those who "did once under enormous by-rote instruction when they were a kid". What a horrible idea. You wouldn't help the kids ANY because I wouldn't touch someone who only has an MCSE without either relevant experience or some sort of relevant qualification (not a memory test), and certainly not a school-leaver. Plus, on a large-scale, MCSE's are pretty much out of date by the time they are awarded, let alone as something for the future (I swear MS change certain options just to push the MCSE takeup the next year).

      By all means have vocational qualifications in computing - I always argue that there should be more of them. PC Repair. Communications cabling. But don't stick any vendor-specific nonsense into them, don't target them at a single use of commercial software, don't claim that they'll form a career for you, and for god's sake don't pretend that "certifications" are somehow a replacement for an academic or vocational qualification in the same area.

    2. Re:Sort them out.... by spasmhead · · Score: 1

      Notice the (not quite so) subtle tone of sarcasm in my regional post

      "don't pretend that "certifications" are somehow a replacement for an academic or vocational qualification in the same area."

      Also don't pretend that academic qualifications means anything at all in the IT industry. Not long back we had a kid who had just completed a 3-year IT degree do a 6-month work placement with us. The manager gave him the task of visiting the server rooms and acquainting himself with machines. I was with him while he was trying to find one of our AS400 servers, he walked up to one of the networking cabinets full of network switches and cat5 cables and asked me "is this the AS400?" - I rest my case - he wasted 3 years of his life.

    3. Re:Sort them out.... by japhering · · Score: 1

      Buy the books for CCIE and MCSE (or whatever MS call it now), one copy of each book for the entire class. Tell them if they don't pass both by the end of the year they get sent to the frontline in Iraq. If they pass that test they will be setup for a lifetime in IT.

      Yeah. in this time of everything being outsourced in IT and people with certs out the wazoo having to start new careers.. really set for a lifetime

  58. Not quite a textbook... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But you might consider The IT Consultant for your third level class... the one about entering the workforce... not as a textbook, more like a study module out of a larger framework.

    The book focusses, not on the ins and outs of programming to the Java API or building a sort algorithm that sorts in less than np time... but on those soft skills aspiring programmers find challenging at times... project management, client communication and satisfaction, applying your skills of intuition and logic to business scenarios.

  59. Depends... by Gattman01 · · Score: 1

    It depends on the area they're going to work in.
    If they're trying for tech support, maybe a book on Indian (or even Chinese) accents.

  60. Online is one option for 'real' books. by OSXCPA · · Score: 1

    If you can't spare the $39 per copy to buy the Linux Network Admin Guide, there is a free but slightly dated version available:

    http://tldp.org/LDP/nag2/index.html

    General principles are still valid and if you or your students get stuck, they can look online for updated material - a guided search, rather than a from-scratch. Plus, it will teach them one of the most important lessons in IT/IS - 'RTFM'. Good luck!

  61. A couple suggestions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. Contact your Heathkit rep and check into updated books. The latest system from them in slick, and can help achieve A+.

    2. Find local businesses willing to serve as an advisory committee, or provide internships.

  62. The best "books" for a sysadmin are... by ekimminau · · Score: 3, Informative

    The best books for a sysadmin are O'Reilly books, hands down. http://oreilly.com/ Unix Essentials/Linux/Unix in a Nutshell, Systems Administration, BASH, IPTables, Apache, Java, MySQL, PHP, Perl, Sendmail. Thats 10 classes. You could probably cover IPTables and Perl in 9 weeks if the classes were more than once per week. You could probably throw JavaScript and Python in there too.

    --
    Armaments, 2-9-21 And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade' N
  63. Don't Underestimate Paper + E-media by pbhj · · Score: 1

    Why limit the media used. Request an online (local or internet) version of the textbook too. Even if it's only the [paginated] text it will fill in for indexing failures and would (depending on rights) allow excerpts to be added to experiment notes, used on the projector/white-board, and I'm sure used for lots of other things.

  64. Raise the level by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Uruguay we have specialized high schools, on the one I went we had 3 years of programming (C/C++/VB), 2 years of Database management, 3 years of hardware and networking, Logic, and a few more, in top of our regular classes (maths, chemistry, etc), and we used books like Deitel&Deitel C/C++; the result 18 years old highshool graduates who then go to college with 3 years of advantadge over they fellow classmates who at the same time are qualified to start working on the IT sector.
    My advice would be to start with logic and structured programming, most 15 year olders should be able to handle it with no problem whatsoever.

  65. CISCO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    cisco.netacad.net

    The curriculum is extensive. My College and Career Academy Instructor for Cisco uses it, and it's completely on the computer/internet!

    I recommend it in a heartbeat.

    1. Re:CISCO! by Z3Px · · Score: 1

      I agree with the Cisco bit. I'm going to a community college for CIS-networking and so far the cisco academy has been the only class worth going to. The class starts pretty basic but gets into some pretty deep stuff.

  66. MIT course materials available "online" by macker · · Score: 1
    --
    (T)he (O)ld (M)an
  67. MCSE / MCSA by __aaufxr4827 · · Score: 1

    Why not use the 70-290, 70-291 70-293 and 70-294 MCSE / MCSA Certication Exam Microsoft Press books? They cover some basic Windows Server administration, subnetting, active directory, security and VPNs all in a palatable way that they will likely actually see in the real world. I was suprised, I went back and got My MCSE/MCSA after being in the field for several years and I actually found some of the information quite useful.

  68. In Computer Science, old != bad by Jason1729 · · Score: 1

    I went to a very good computer science school (University of Waterloo), and in a lot of courses we'd use books that were 8-10 years old. In 1999, we used a book called "Modern Operating Systems" published around 1993, in the DOS era, pre-linux 1.0 iirc. The fundamental theory just doesn't change that fast and you're not doing the students a service by teaching them the latest fads.

    What year was "The Art of Computer Programming" written again? And it's as relevant today as it was the day it was written.

    So to say the book is obsolete *only* because it's 4 years old makes no sense at all.

  69. Well, I think you need to establish educational by hey! · · Score: 2, Insightful

    goals.

    Certification training is only one kind of education, and not particularly important for people who are five to eight years from entering the work force. Of course, computer science is a practical field, but knowing the underlying theory is kind of the point of pre-professional education.

    Thinking back over my own history, I think the most important book I ever read was Kernighan and Pike's The Unix Programming Environment. This was a wonderful book, in that it was extremely practical, but at the same time introduced readers gently to things like lexical analysis and parsing. The world would be different if everybody who ever went overboard for XML had read that book. I also recommend K&R's The C Programming Language, even though it is not a theoretical book, simply because it is exceptionally well written and clear. Programming is a fundamental skill, and it's good to learn from clean, well thought out examples.

    Perhaps, the shortest advice is anything with Brian Kernighan as an author. Software Tools by K & Plaugher was very influential in my thinking, although the whole "software tools movement" never took off the way its proponents hoped. I don't know what recent editions are like, but these books have practical examples that illustrate important ideas.

    Other really good texts, although far to advanced for high school, would be Applied Cryptography by Bruce Schneier, and Introduction to Algorithms by Cormen, Lieserson, Rivest and Stein.

    In the end, I would look for books that have a practical syllabus (if you will) that illustrates important theoretical ideas. If students entered CS knowing how to write a fairly clean C program, if they knew how to write a simple grammar that could be parsed by recursive descent, if they could do a simple object oriented design (perhaps Mr. Bruce Eckels' books, which are available online for free would be good here), if they could write both simple filter programs as well as programs that run in a more nondeterministic style, they'd be ahead of where a lot of people coming out of CS programs are.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:Well, I think you need to establish educational by jacobsm · · Score: 1

      Take a look at the z/Architecture Principles of Operation manual on the IBM Website.

      It is mainframe based but it gives a very good overview (in depth) of how modern computers work Any good teacher can use this information for either scaring the kids silly or getting them really interested in what computers really are about.

      The chapters are;

      Chapter 1, Introduction
      Chapter 2, Organization
      Chapter 3, Storage
      Chapter 4, Control
      Chapter 5, Program Execution
      Chapter 6, Interruptions
      Chapter 7, General Instructions
      Chapter 8, Decimal Instructions
      Chapter 9, Floating-Point Overview and Support Instructions
      Chapter 10, Control Instructions
      Chapter 11, Machine-Check Handling
      Chapter 12, Operator Facilities
      Chapter 13, I/O Overview
      Chapter 14, I/O Instructions
      Chapter 15, Basic I/O Functions
      Chapter 16, I/O Interruptions
      Chapter 17, I/O Support Functions
      Chapter 18, Hexadecimal-Floating-Point Instructions
      Chapter 19, Binary-Floating-Point Instructions
      Chapter 20, Decimal-Floating-Point Instructions
      Appendix A, Number Representation and Instruction Use Examples
      Appendix B, Lists of Instructions
      Appendix C, Condition-Code Settings

  70. Highschool A+? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Teaching High schoolers basic computer repair and network security is proabbly not the best use of a highschoolers time. Chances are they proabbly know more then you can teach them anyways. Most companies will not higher a high schooler without some formal training from a technical institute and without experience anyways.

    Teaching electronics and how electricity works along with math and english are better uses of a high schoolers time. If you want to get into Operating systems you could go over some of the more advanced details of Windows and Linux. Windows will be hard to go too far into without having a lab enviroment you can essentially distroy on a regular basis. You could also get them interested in linux and teach them linux and how it works as its easy to see whats going on inside and what components make up an operating system. You could teach some advanced shell stuff in Linux which will come in handy later when they are programming. You could also use linux to teach some more of the detail in TCP/IP.

    Leave the A++ and network security to higher level institutions as I would bet most highschoolers will find the theory too boring and they will not understand the practical nature.

    It mite be better to teach kids how to solve problems using programming languages like ADA or Java where they syntax of the programming language may not be all that important in the long run anyways. What is important though is the ability to take a concept and apply it to a problem. Java may not be best for this, but its likely the most fully featured OOP language which will help them get ahead when they do go to a higher level institution.

    Finding some basic books on Linux, Java, and ADA are proabbly not that hard. I like wrox press books for programming. As for a good linux book check out "Linux Administration Handbook" by Evi Nemeth, Garth Snyder, Trent R. Hein .

  71. You and P.T. Barnum must not agree by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

    The market runs in cycles. And a high schooler starting now will graduate in 4 years. By the time the teacher actually gets a course up and running, it could be 5 or 6 years before the first certified student graduates.

    While the market is looking at a downturn in the next few years, withing 5-6 years there will be a "talent shortage" as there always is. And I remember just about 8 years ago, I was at Linux expo surrounded by piles of 20 year old kids making from $80,000-$200,000 a year in companies that pretty much all went tits up... but still, while those companies had investor money, they were making it.

    Just two years ago, I heard about salaries within the states for young guys in the $60-$90K range.

    And even now, when the market is going to shit, any kid can take a CCIE certification to Norway, Luxumborg, Switzerland or any other high paid European country and get that. After all, here in Norway, a fry chef at McDonalds gets 95-110NOK per hour (basically minimum wage) which translates to roughly $45,000 a year when all is said and done.

    So, before you start telling people which bodily excretion to dissect in the future, I would recommend broadening your horizons.

    1. Re:You and P.T. Barnum must not agree by japhering · · Score: 1

      A very large percentage of Americans will never, ever leave the US for any reason. Given that fact (look at the percentage of Americans that hold passports), tell kids in American HS that they can earn $80,000+ per year for simply passing some tests is doing them a great disservice.

      The reality is that unless you are extremely elite at what you do, you will never get a job paying that type of salary fresh out of school with no experience. And even then, there is a good chance that the job will be outsourced for significantly less than that amount.

      Is there a shortage of IT types.. I don't think so.. the companies that are screaming shortage all have vested interest in keeping the people costs as low as possible. Why employ an older skilled worker when you can simply hire 4 fresh out of school workers (high school or University) for the same overhead?

      In the IT related industries, by far the largest cost is people and the only way to control the cost is to either hire fewer more highly skilled/experienced people, hire 3-4 times as many unskilled/experienced people, or outsource to someplace where skilled/experienced people cost significantly less.

    2. Re:You and P.T. Barnum must not agree by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

      Doh, I had a great response written and when I clicked login, it didn't save my state.

      In short, I agree with you regarding the pay, or at least conceed you've made many valid points. But to be frank, the pay isn't the issue and I should have made the point in my earlier post.

      The point is, that whether you get a CCIE or a Masters in Comp Sci/El Eng, you have the same fiduciary path ahead. The difference is, with a CSEE with a focus on networking technologies, the guy should know they hows, whys, and whens of networking. You should know how to formall calculate network conditions mathematically and provide a high level of confidence to the receiver of your input because the guy has done more than just say "my experience is..." based on holding is thumb up in the air to judge wind current.

      For wireless networking instead of just guessing the signal is bad because someone might have used iron nails in the old building, a CSEE with an education which included physics and mathematics would be able to calculate a wireless strategy to circumvent interference instead of just adding access points until it works.

      High school is a place for general education.

  72. How to Design Programs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This book was designed for beginning programmers and is used in highschools everywhere:

    http://www.htdp.org/

    See also "Teach Scheme (not), Reach Java"

  73. Try to engage them? by twoallbeefpatties · · Score: 1

    A while ago, I told a programmer friend that I was thinking of teaching myself a little programming, maybe go back to school for it sooner or later, and I asked him if he could recommend a beginner's book. He does most of his work in C++, so he gave me an old-version copy of Beginning C++ Game Programming / Michael Dawson. He teaches basic CompSci classes still at a local colleges and is quite fond of the book. It's a pretty solid book that teaches almost all through direct examples, using short games as a framework for the examples.

    When I'd finished that book, I asked him what he thought I should pick up next. He suggested maybe I should get something on data structures. So I ended up picking up a used book off of the net for data structures, one that advertised itself as being very simple to read and using lots of examples. This "simple" book was less like a book of real-world theory and more like an algebra book. All of the uses of the various structures were presented in a "When X, cout Y" format, and I found myself reading and re-reading a lot of things just to figure out what all of the abstraction meant and what its purpose was.

    You're going to be teaching kids that are currently taking a lot of classes that feel like just filler to them, that are just taking up time to fill out their credits. IMHO, try not to clutter them up with just another "memorization class" - try to find material that engages or amuses them rather than just throwing facts and language at them.

    --
    Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
  74. man man and go from there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    or info info if you prefer.

  75. What kind of students are taking the course? by wmguy · · Score: 1

    That is a pretty big task to prepare high school students to enter the computer workforce. Unfortunately this way of thinking about careers in computers is preparing your students for what are becoming (have become?) commodity dead-end jobs. I say this because the computer careers which can be had with nothing more than high school and technical certifications are either hard to find or low-paying without much promotion potential. If this were 1998 you could get away with it, but not today.

    I think that you should forget about making your students expert programmers, and focus on activities which will be fun, interesting, and encourage them to enter the computer field in general--with the intent being for them to go to college. The key is that they are doing something so that at the end of the class they will say, "boy, I can't believe we were able to do that." This could involve basic robotics, or just about anything else, but probably not poring over the details of sorting a binary tree.

  76. I belong!!! by Ryogo · · Score: 1

    I go to Guerin Prep High School in Chicago. I belong to a school that uses laptops as textbooks. I think the entire idea is amazing. not only do I have the book on the computer to my use, I have the entire internet to my disposal. I support the "laptopification" of all US schools.

  77. "Practice of System and Network Administration" by jakob_grimm · · Score: 1

    by Limoncelli, Hogan, and Chalup. http://snipurl.com/3m6u1 [www_amazon_com] It doesn't discuss OS specifics, but rather general skills on how to be a good admin, run a good helpdesk, etc. A very good book. I recommend it to any sysadmin.

    --

    "No prints can come from fingers / If machines become our hands." -- Jack Johnson

  78. CS to computers as astronomy to telescopes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course, computer science is a practical field, but knowing the underlying theory is kind of the point of pre-professional education.

    Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. -- Edsger Dijkstra

    Programming is a practical field, CS is mostly theoretical (or should be). I think a lot of programmers would be better off just going to a trade school, and it's been historical accident that CS majors are writing in the corporate world.

    This occurred because historically at first the only people who knew anything about computers were EE's and then later CS grads. Most of the original tech companies hired from US colleges and universities because that's where the people who knew computers came from, and that's just continued.

    As an industry we need to start differentiating the people who need to know about N=NP? versus the people who are just "code monkeys". You don't need to be an EE to wire a house, an electrician's certificate is sufficient.

    1. Re:CS to computers as astronomy to telescopes by hey! · · Score: 1

      Well we all know about the astronomy/telescope quote, and it's true up to a limit.

      However, a better analogy would be optics to telescope making. Even that is not perfect. I think we may find interesting insights into fundamental physics coming from the study of quantum computing. It's possible that computation might become a model of how we look at theoretical physics. Still, the optics/telescope analogy is serviceable.

      Optics is a broad science with many fields of applicability, one of which includes the engineering of optical instruments such as microscopes and telescopes. Every paper published in an optics journal needn't be applicable to telescope making. But designers of telescopes need to have a substantial and current knowledge of optics, unless they wish to confine themselves to reproducing the instruments of the past.

      As an industry we need to start differentiating the people who need to know about N=NP? versus the people who are just "code monkeys". You don't need to be an EE to wire a house, an electrician's certificate is sufficient.

      Well, I think anybody who is involved in coding should have a rough idea of what P=NP is about, to the degree that they understand that consensus of the vast majority of stupendously intelligent people working in the field of CS believe that P NP. NP problems come up very frequently, especially since the late 90s, where much of the new value created in computer engineering has come from developing new technologies for new business models. Think search engines, for example. Think vehicle routing.

      A relative in the seafood industry described to me a system he saw for preparing salmon steaks and fillets. There is a queue of orders in the system, and a conveyor belt with a sequence of fish on it takes them through a laser scanner that creates a 3D model of the fish. High pressure water jets then slice the fish into cuts that fill the orders while attempting to minimize waste. The cuts are then automatically routed and assembled into orders, which are packed in ice and shipped to restaurants all over the region. Any restaurant within a couple of hundred miles can order fifty one pound salmon fillets first thing in the morning and have them show up at the door in time for dinner, and they'll all be almost exactly a pound or a tiny bit over.

      Creating a system like this involves finding an approximation solution to a problem to which (it seems likely) we can readily reduce a number of NP-C or NP-hard problems, such as partition or bin packing. Not knowing this means you're probably going to end up way over your head. Even if you succeed in doing a practical approximation, you won't be able to quantify how reliable that approximation is.

      Now, some people will say that systems like this aren't all that common, and they're right. But they've got cause and effect screwed up. They think that we don't have many people who understand the P=NP problem because these systems are rare. In fact, there are probably endless economically valuable problems that are as or more algorithmically difficult than this. Solutions to those economic problems are rare because there aren't many people who understand P=NP.

      True, code monkeys are basically craft workers. They pretty much construct artifacts that consist of applying known solutions to common problems to a restricted class of problems. The analogy with electricians is apt. 90% of being a qualified electrician is learning to avoid originality. You don't make up your own wire coloring scheme, you don't try to invent a new way to wire a three way switch, you don't waste time figuring out if conduit is really needed if code demands it.

      But the point of education is to open up the potential of students, isn't it? High school and college are about fundamental education. "Fundamental" doesn't mean easy or simplistic. It means something upon which the student can build. Trade based technology is almost the exact opposite of fundamental education. It has a distinct sell-by date, usually three or four years away. An education should last a lifetime.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  79. No no no no no by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    the third class should prepare juniors and seniors to enter the workforce and start a career in computers. [...] kids on their way to becoming junior sysadmins, programmers, networking professionals

    18 year old kids with three classes from high school don't get any of these jobs unless they work for minimum wage and are prepared to never earn much more. HR almost always requires degrees for professional positions. The 1990's are long gone; you should be preparing these kids for college.

  80. try these by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would prefer to use the internet, but if you're looking for text books on computer technology, your best bets would probably be -

    PC and Compatible Computers : Assembley Language, Design, and Interfacing Volumes I & II
    by : Mazidi, Muhammad A. / Gillispie-Mazidi, Janice Catherine

    Data Communications and Networking
    by : Behrouz A Forouzan

    Computer Networking
    by : Stanford H. Rowe

  81. O'Reilly by digitalgimpus · · Score: 1

    In college my textbooks were O'Reilly books... much better than "real textbooks", and a tiny fraction of the price. I'd recommend simply using O'Reilly. Why pay more for less? They are the gold standard right now.

  82. What Country? by olddotter · · Score: 1

    What country is this guy in? I can not imagine any high schools around me teaching "Jr. Sysadmin" or similar technology. Maybe its time to go back and visit a school.

    I would suggest doing what many college professors do, write your own book. Half my classes were "books" purchased from a local copy shop that they professor had prepared him/her self pulling information from all over in what they thought the course should cover.

    Just relying on the internet is bad, although teaching the uses of google is good. The problem is I see many pages written by "so called authoritative" people when barely grasp the concepts they talk about. Sometimes 80% of the page will be right, the other 20% isn't just wrong, its dangerously wrong.

  83. Torrent IT training Vids - Pirate it, then buy it by Adeptus_Luminati · · Score: 1

    While as a teacher you can't obviously recommend your students pirate all the material, you should go to elbitz.net or learnbits.info (both require free registration), and download several of their IT training videos (they have *everything*).

    Once you find a few titles that you think are great and affordable, make a business case and get the school to purchase them so that your students can watch them. It should be no different than other teachers playing videos in class for their students on other subjects.

    For teaching Cisco Networking you can also get GNS3 (dynamips) and get your students to build virtual networks or use it to test their routing abilities.

    Good luck!

    --
    No trees were killed in the making of this post; however, many trillions of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
  84. Don't solve this on your own by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

    Things could get messy if you get to the end of the year and realize that you have not been teaching what you should be teaching. You are not responsible for just teaching kids, you are responsible for making sure that what is taught survives legal scrutiny if questioned. Usually textbook recommendations are made at the state level, depending on your country of course. Unless you have tenure and are highly regarded in your field, don't solve this on your own.

    You probably have a pretty good idea of what needs taught, but most subjects don't allow teachers to just decide. Do your homework, and make sure you have an agreement with your local school as well as the city board of education (if public) or whatever corresponds to that in your area. Make sure everyone agrees that there is a curriculum with no text, no curriculum at all, or if someone finds that both exist.

    Depending on where you are, there should be a set curriculum that defines what should be taught, and what will be covered on national standardized testing. There might be recommended textbook series along with that as well. Just because the people you talk to don't know about it doesn't mean it's not in some dusty corner of the superintendent's office.

    If you are stateside, ask for a copy of the national education standards, and then ask if the local curriculum has been aligned with those national standards.

    The result of this will tell you what you need to know. Either the books you have are sufficient and you can supplement using suggestions from the rest of these answers, of you will know what you need to look for in books and will be able to make a case for purchasing after the school year has started. Cover your behind first.

  85. ExamPrep by jaker29902 · · Score: 1

    Any of the A+, Network+, etc books put out by exam prep are relatively cheap and are GREAT (imho, read again in MY honest OPINION) in terms that they cover the information presented and do a very good job of prepping for the exam the book covers. (Also offers a discount on buying a testing slot) The advantage and draw back however is that they cover ONLY what will be found on the test, which means your prepped for the exam, which is usually fairly comprehensive, but it doesnt go very far beyond that. Again this can be forgiven because the test is usually pretty comprehensive

  86. Is this vocational? by cjonslashdot · · Score: 1

    If this is a vocational curriculum, you might look for books on these various topics. I am sorry I cannot recommend any that would be appropriate.
    However, it this is not a vocational group, then I would really discourage you from portraying computers as a career. Technology changes rapidly, and that is accelerating. Computer languages are here today and gone tomorrow. It is not even clear that in 20 years computers will be programmed the way they are now. It would be better to teach the kids in a survey manner, looking at the history of computing, the fundamental theory, and where it is likely to go in the future (present the various predictions of experts). That will provide them with a foundation for making informed career decisions.

  87. Jobs right out of high school: ticket to nowhere by wonkavader · · Score: 1

    Agreed. The talk about certifications made me cringe, too. Low-level certs are for losers. Help them get one, send them out in to the work force, and they'll wind up losers in the work force. Teach them how things actually work, send them to college, and they'll wind up smart people who succeed in the work force.

    - There are plenty of books which teach how networking works -- you'll have your smallest problem, there. A lot of those are aimed at CCNA type certs. If you have to go for a cert-based book, go for the CCNA one, rather than the Network+ one.

    - There are some dry ones on security.

    - There might be good ones on OS, but most will be college level and way more detailed than you have time for.

    - Hardware books all seem to be horrible over-simplifications with lots of drawings and cost a fortune.

    On one hand, I see where you're coming from. This sort of overview class should be a solid text book. You shouldn't have to go it alone. You have several other classes to teach, papers to grade, parents to meet.

    But I think you're forced to go it alone.

    You've been handed a very hard class. If you do find a book, I very much want to know what it is. If you don't find a book, I think you'd be doing the teach community a HUGE service by videotaping the entire thing and putting up a website, so we can watch what succeeds and what fails.

    As far as texts which will help goes, I'd strongly recommend a few chapters of some James Burke books, or (and this is probably better) a few choice episodes of "Connections" and "the day the Universe Changed". Be sure to include the sections which talk about the computers of Bletchley Park -- when "computer" was a job title.

    You need to start the class with some old computers and screwdriver a hammer. You need to let them smash their way to ICs. You need to wake them up, right away, and then talk about THEORY. You talking will keep them awake, if there are props and they're involved.

    Be sure to do an in-class exercise where you wire together some LEDs and some transistors.

    A day spent on where jobs go, what they earn, and why they do NOT want to go work at Best Buy could change the lives of some of these kids.

  88. LearnKey products by carlosfocker · · Score: 1

    I personally think the best A+ Cert Prep book out there is published by LearnKey. The author Mike Meyers provides a text book filled with information but presents it in easy to read format. He often cracks jokes and tells stories to keep the book lively in often dry areas. The cert prep package comes with CD's which provide hours of video that are extremely helpful. Their network+ book is also quite good.

  89. Lortd God Almighty by b4upoo · · Score: 1

    When i hear of schools where kids are deprived of text books it makes me want to blow my brains out. What are we coming to to allow such conditions to exist? I wish I knew which books would be best for you and your students or that I had the funds to buy your texts for you. It's time for government to sober up and help young people get started with decent educations.

  90. O'Reilly: Essential System Administration by mzs · · Score: 1

    That is what I learned out of. Then man pages and the web after that. There is a great little appendix teaches Bourne shell scripting. I have no idea of a good Windows admin book. You will need to do some exercises in firewalls that are not in that book. Also little exercises that expose to all sorts of useful commands like grep, find, awk, jot, etc. If you need to teach both Windows and Unix, then there is no time for more in a high school type class in two years. If you can avoid the Windows you should get the camel book and teach perl as that is a sort of natural extension from shell scripting to more powerful scripts.

  91. "You're doing it wrong.." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To steal a line from XKCD: "You're doing it wrong".

    You've just posted to Slashdot to find a textbook to teach your course... on the first day of school?!?

    Whatever happened to the notion of getting things ready *before* they're needed?

  92. Gypsy270 by Gypsy270 · · Score: 1

    If you are going to start them on the road to programming you first need to teach them the skills which are the base to any good modern programming language. Find books (do not rely on the Internet; use it only for examples and syntax) which teach good program design (such as moduler programming) and basic programming structures (such as for..next loops). Don't use books for certification tests because they are too application specific and these technologies change so quickly that the information won't do them any good. As far as languages go, you should pick a language that isn't too tough for beginners. Preferably one with a GUI environment that will assist them on syntax. Microsoft Visual Basic is an excellent example and you can download the Express version for free. If you choose something such as C++ or Java you should use an environment like Ecliplse. There are some language/environments created for teaching beginning programmers. Programming tutors such as Alice (www.alice.org), Phogram (phrogram.com), etc. teach programming basics and give quick visual and sometimes graphical results. This helps keep their attention so they feel they aren't wasting their time writing things like 'Hello World'. You know how dull that gets after the millionth time. You should let them work in teams as well to build their social and team environment skills. This is more like real world programming where we rely on each others knowledge and experience to get things done.

    1. Re:Gypsy270 by Gypsy270 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I meant to include this too. Scratch, created by MIT , is a good programming tutor for kids too. You build programs by stacking code blocks together. It would help to teach structure. link: http://scratch.mit.edu/ ps Sorry about subject title. This was my first post to this forum. :)

  93. You need to be a college dropout baybee! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, I'm in hot demand because I've passed almost all the courses for a BSc in IT, in addition to some other IT/CompSci training I've done, but they don't pay me quite so well as if I had a degree. If I only had high-school level training, well the most I could do is get some retail/repair/tech support job that doesn't pay well and otherwise generally sucks. A BSc seems to be a nasty middle ground, they're looking for a Master's/PhD instead (maybe it's more bang for the buck?). So basically by having BSc-level training and more but without the piece of paper, employers get to have their cake and eat it too, they get someone to work with all that "icky" code for less pay, and I get the jobs that someone with a BSc would get, except I can actually get them. It all works out well.

  94. How to Think like a Computer Scientist by Kwesadilo · · Score: 1

    I am a big fan of Allen B. Downey's How to Think Like a Computer Scientist: Learning with Python. It assumes no knowledge of programming, and it takes the reader through the ideas that are central to computer programming while teaching them Python.

    It starts by thoroughly defining variables, expressions, and statements and then goes on to teach functions. Conditionals, recursion, and other fairly standard operations are discussed. After introducing each of the basic classes that are built in to Python, the book finishes with an introduction to object-oriented programming. It covers the general concepts of objects and classes and then shows the reader the use and usefulness of classes such as linked lists and stacks, guiding the student through their implementation.

    Throughout the book, Downey shows the reader how to develop a programming mindset and teaches effective debugging and incremental development. I found it both informative and interesting reading. The book is replete with examples, and each section has a programming challenge at the end of it to test the skills just acquired.

    The book is available for free on the Web or can be purchased as a physical textbook. I have only read the Python version, but the same author has other versions of How to Think Like a Computer Scientist using C++ and Java.

    --
    This space reserved for administrative use.
  95. Hey! How about a list of possibly useful titles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Upgrading And Repairing PCs By Scott Mueller
    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_st?rs=1000&page=1&rh=i%3Astripbooks%2Cp_27%3AScott+Mueller&sort=daterank
    A+, Network+, Security+ Exams in a Nutshell By Pawan K. Bhardwaj
    http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596528249/
    Building the Perfect PC, Second Edition By Robert Bruce Thompson, Barbara Fritchman Thompson
    http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596526863/
    Big Book of Windows Hacks By Preston Gralla
    http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596528355/

  96. what about teaching a lisp? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not teach kids a lisp?

    In my opinion (and the opinion of many others) lisps are the most expressive computer languages. They maximize the ease with which a programmer can solve a computational problem by offering a powerful set of features that are not universally available in other languages.

    How about Paul Graham's "ANSI Common Lisp"?

    There are a number of good scheme books out there too.

  97. Shell scripting is a useful intro to programming by Dubhglas · · Score: 1

    While bash has a "better" language than CMD.EXE, just about any shell language can be used as a first stab at sequencing, looping, and branching. Even a few lessons on the shell can give students something they can begin using right away, since it is built into the system. Since the shell is installed by default, you can get to work right away, without a download and install -- often illegal on lab machines anyway. I can recommend A+ texts (even out-of-date ones) since the focus on the right set of topics, albeit in more detail than you probably want. Get your lab to install Cold Storage so you can have students change settings, find and install software packages, whether admin tools, languages, or something like installing Ubuntu within a file on a FAT partition.

  98. Standard freshman texts might work by natoochtoniket · · Score: 1

    Course objectives? I take it the kids already have seen computers, and probably think they know what they are. Any book that has the name of a product in the title will have no lasting educational value. If the kids learn something about how and why computers work, and not just how to use some particular product, the knowledge will have lasting value. It can introduce them to a whole field of knowledge. And, it is much more likely to be interesting.

    A commonly used volume for first college courses in programming concepts is: "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs - 2nd Edition" (MIT Electrical Engineering and Computer Science) by Harold Abelson and Gerald Jay Sussman (Hardcover - Jul 25, 1996)
    And, there is an instructors volume that you might find useful: "Instructor's Manual t/a Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" - 2nd Edition by Julie Sussman (Paperback - Sep 15, 1998)

    A very common first-course volume for computer networking is: "Computer Networks" (4th Edition) by Andrew S. Tanenbaum (Hardcover - Aug 19, 2002) (Though, to be fair, there is not really a standard text in this area.)

    I don't know of any text that would prepare a person with high-school only to enter the work force in any technical capacity. The technology changes too fast for any how-to-use-it training to be useful for more than a couple of years. One course cannot go deep or wide enough to be useful to an employer in a technical capacity.

  99. Teach them REAL programming by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    Don't waste your time teaching people IT or MIS related stuff. Teach them real programming in C and C++. Don't waste your time on Java or C#. Teach them practical stuff too. Nobody cares that you implemented 5 different search & sort algorithms.

  100. My recommendation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The US Army 25B school basically uses this book.
    A++ guide to managing and matining your PC by Andrews. It's probably not the best, but it does the job.

  101. MIT has it all online by snoig · · Score: 1

    MIT has their courseware all online. I would start here: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/ And if you want to stay with dead trees, I have also found that O'Reilly is hands down the best publisher of computer books. Also, one of the best books for UNIX is Design of the UNIX Operating System by Maurice J. Bach.

  102. It wasn't the lobbies who murdered shop, it was by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the boards of education who couldn't stomach a gang of competence first teachers, who didn't grovel to Political Establishment.

    How would YOU like it if all teachers groveled for you, except some bunch of shop teachers who called you an ignorant eradicator of children's potential?

    Any child born with NEED to work with their hands, now has no school training in high school for them.

    But the big ass egos in the board of educ don't have to feel threatened by equality among the physically skilled, so the world must be better, right?

    As for the Good Old Days, it was based on rote memorizing, not on understanding, so it wasn't so good for us who need to understand something to work with it.

    1. Re:It wasn't the lobbies who murdered shop, it was by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      I was referring more to the fact that shop taught them to do things themselves rather than depend on others.

      You know.. self-initiative, not be a mindless consumer drone, that kind of thing.

      I've seen shorts on shop from that era on mst3k, and for all the riffing, those qualities shown out the most from those courses.

      In that case it's not the physical nature of the labor, but the fact that it has practical application to everyday life, and at the same time denies many of today's industries "profits".

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  103. A+ Certification by cyberspittle · · Score: 0

    Something like A+ certification would be helpful. Just like you have a basic automotive class, there should be something similiar. It should be structured so you can monitor progress and have a test at the end so you can evaluate. Some people suggest have them using the internet. That should be a resource. Don't believe everything you see online. "It was on the internet, it must be true". lol

  104. Intro books recommendation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For introductory programming:
    I have taught CS101 in community college with the Deitel Java book. I think its suitable to the task at hand: introducing computer programming. Note that there are some excellent exercises including appropriate classical problems such as the Knights Tour. Without students having a calculus background you can't reasonably give them some of the classical mathematic problems such as exponential decay.

    I do believe that students in computing need a basic grounding in not only discrete math but probablility and statistics so that they understand median, mean, and standard deviation as well as simple variance and the most fundamental distributions (uniform and normal: student-t, weibull, et al. are for serious courses in college).

    Networking: it can be tough if the students lack the discrete math background and even worse if they haven't gotten exposure to trigonometry and logarithms but I would say that with judicious selection of chapters and assignments you should use Forouzan's book Data Communications and Networking http://www.amazon.com/Data-Communications-Networking-McGraw-Hill-Forouzan/dp/0072967757/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220369409&sr=8-7

  105. My Thoughts by Gnuontz · · Score: 1

    I think that you are on the right track. I wouldnt start them on the A+, rather, I would say to have them get a non micro$loth centric certification like Network +. Encourage them to begin using opensource OS's and learning to make them work. It is my opinion that we aren't the only nation that can no longer afford the Micro$loth Monopoly and claim any sort of fiscal responsability

  106. Computer textbooks by wfstanle · · Score: 1

    Whatever you do, don't get any textbook (or for that matter - website) that is too dependent on a particular operation system or language. There are still too many "fad" OS's" and computer languages out there to "hitch your wagon" to just one and hope it goes somewhere. Before people point to Windows as a stable OS let me say that there are many versions of windows and all are different. Apple and Linux are no different in this respect. Stick to the basic concepts and you will not go wrong.

  107. For a sys admin Start with basic certs by Citoahc · · Score: 1

    Having trained three guys on my helpdesk this is what I recommend for someone interested in getting started in IT support.

    For computer hardware I would go with Mike Myers All in One A+. It gives a solid overview of how computers work along with how to fix them starting at a very basic level.
    http://www.amazon.com/Certification-All-One-Guide-Sixth/dp/0072263113/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220369045&sr=8-2

    For networking go with a Network+ book. The All in one book is decent, but there are a few out there that are just a good.

    http://www.amazon.com/Network-Certification-All-Guide-Third/dp/0072253452/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220369766&sr=1-2

    Additionally if the students get the certifications they can probably get their foot in the door at a lot of help desks.

    For the advanced class I would recommend "The Practice of System and Network Administration" by Thomas Limoncelli. It requires a moderate IT knowledge, but it teaches a lot of the basic ideas of system design that people seem to miss.
    http://www.amazon.com/Practice-System-Network-Administration-2nd/dp/0321492668/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220369813&sr=1-1

    This isn't the best basis for a programmer, but it will teach them a lot of useful things they won't get from most programming classes.

    -Tim

  108. No, I'M THE SECRET LIBERTARIAN GOD-PRINCE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... And while I could rant about unions, I've got no beef with teachers, public or private. Home school is a terrible general solution. There's a reason home-schooled children statistically outperform public school children: They have dedicated parents that care about their education, and manage to maintain a ridiculous student to teacher ratio. Anyone who thinks that can be universally applied to all children is a moron.

    But to further your point, any teacher that decides to abandon other references is going to have an uphill battle to be a successful teacher. It would be one thing if such references didn't exist, or were cost prohibitive. But that simply isn't the case an overwhelming majority of the time.

    1. Re:No, I'M THE SECRET LIBERTARIAN GOD-PRINCE by Count+Fenring · · Score: 1

      Is it more appropriate to bow or prostrate myself? I know what to do for gods, and for princes, but the combo is messing with me.

      Seriously. Mod parent awesome and insightful.

  109. Wikiversity & Wikibooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wikibooks & Wikiversity are both young projects by (the) Wikimedia (Foundation), the organisation that also runs Wikipedia and Wiktionary. They're both very young, new and not yet very evolved yet, but since these are mostly internet geeks, most of the projects' strongest subjects will be in the IT branch. Just an idea...

  110. MIT OCW by mistahkurtz · · Score: 2, Informative

    MIT offers online courses for free, and many of the books they use are available in electronic format. Some of the ones I've seen online textbooks for are the intro to programming and intro to networks. Might be worth checking out.

    --
    not only is time travel possible, it's irrelevant.
  111. Wikibooks? by BerkeleyBull · · Score: 1

    In addition to the free books available on the Internet, Wikibooks has a bunch of textbooks available. The CS ones are here:
    http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Subject:Computer_science

    BB

  112. Programming from the Ground Up by johnnyb · · Score: 1

    This is more for those who are serious about programming, but if they are, find it here.

  113. Don't let your kid take shop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You don't want your kids taking shop at school anyway. All kids idolize their shop teacher. Screw that. You should always be viewed as superman to your kid. Take the opportunity to spend some time with your kids and have them idolize you (hell, invite their school friends). At a minimum, you need a work table, vice, drill press (even those kind that you strap a hand drill into), a coping saw, a hammer, a rasp/file, and some sandpaper. You can make just about any small wood craft with those tools. A drill press makes supervision and safety easy for the only thing that can really fuck them up. If you want the deluxe version, get a radial arm saw or a bandsaw, but bring that in after basic hand tools have been mastered. Extra bonus? Get a lathe.

    My shop class taught drafting. You can do that, but it changes the price considerably. Also, I suck at drafting, and there's no way my kids would idolize me after seeing me demonstrate my ineptness. So, treat that as a separate subject. Instead, buy a book with templates or download them. Anyone good with their hands can learn to use all of the above tools. As a bonus, you can have your kids build shit to sell at a craft fair and recoup the costs (no, that's not serious).

  114. Re:Maybe I'm a... by Technician · · Score: 1

    Maybe you're a dumbass? Just uninstall the application and reinstall?

    If you are in the Portland OR area and would like a shot at it, drop me a line.

    It's a possiblility, But, a reinstall was attempted. The broken photocopier does not reinstall the existing TWAIN driver. Reinstall left it in the same condition. Reinstalled the TWAIN driver.. Same result, still hooked to the uninstalled photo editor.

    At this point we've reached 3 hours of un-billable hours as it isn't fixed yet. Even worse is there is absolutely no sign of improvement at all. How many dead end tries does it take to fix and how much can you bill for this type repair. This is why there are few mom and pop shops.

    The little fix this takes hours and hours and is only worth a few bucks to the consumer. These types of repairs simply are no longer offered as they don't pay the rent. Nobody tries to fix this type problem for a living anymore as they quickly find they burn the midnight oil and get paid maybe an hour for the 3-12 hours it actually took. I quit at 3 hours. The work performed didn't fix it and was un-billable.

    This is typical of Windows problems. Easily broken like glass windows and replacement is the practical fix. Reassembling the pieces is a waste of time and is never quite right.

    --
    The truth shall set you free!
  115. Computer Science Teachers Association by Cynic · · Score: 2, Informative

    The CSTA is a great source of curriculum and materials for teaching computer science:

    http://www.csta.acm.org/

    I'd recommend joining (it's free for you!) and making use of their resources.

  116. Capron, Computers: Tools for an information age by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Capron, Computers: Tools for an information age.

    Not sure if it's the most appropriate for HS, but sure it's comprehensive, introductory, interesting.

  117. Check with Colleges by ronoholiv · · Score: 1

    I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I recommend that you talk with or go visit the CS/CIS/MIS instructors and professors at colleges and universities in your area. I can't guarantee that they'll be helpful, but they may give you some ideas as to books to buy and, perhaps more helpful, the base skills students would need to do well in the college classes.

    Like with most of the other posters, I agree that it's better to stick with generic topics than to get too specific. Logic and problem-solving are the two most important (and long-lasting) skills for IT workers to have. For hands-on purposes, though, buying several specific books for yourself that you can use to get the students to do some low-level work would be good. Give them a chance to do a couple things on both Linux and Windows so that they have some exposure to multiple systems.

    As for A+, Network+, and all those other certifications, I'd recommend that you acknowledge their presence and, if possible, to teach so that those tests (the ones you are acknowledging) can be passed with some more prep work on the students' part, but not to teach solely for those certifications.

    Also, regardless of the class, one or two class periods should be devoted to ethics. The students should be made aware that just because they have access to sensitive information, that they should not abuse that privilege.

  118. Computer Textbooks For High Schoolers? by Burce · · Score: 2, Funny

    I am looking for a book to help my child, a high school student, become a high school teacher. Is there a book that you would recommend to help me do this? Are any schools hiring right out of high school? [let me know if this goes over your head.]

  119. Head First C# by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My 15-year-old loves Head First C#. It's a great book for learning to program, and it is easily accessible to a high school student.

  120. Recommended books by Gweezel · · Score: 1

    Speaking of O'Reilly, they publish a series of books called "Head First." These are very detailed books that are geared towards new programmers and developers. I also recommend the Mike Meyers Passport (not related to Austin Powers) series of books. Courtney

  121. To learn programming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "How to Design Programs" (http://www.htdp.org/) is an excellent book to learn programming. It has a very gradual approach and has been used successfully with high schoolers. It also has excellent tools. It uses Dr Scheme, a open source lisp interpreter with many batteries included (IDE, debbugger, graphics, etc.).

  122. try javabat.com by icknay · · Score: 1

    That's funny, this just came up yesterday, but take a look at http://javabat.com/ -- it's a free site with little practice coding problems that run live in the browser. You type in your code and it runs the unit tests right there, so it's a good low-barrier resource, for a class or lab without requiring any setup. The problems are small and focused on algorithms: strings, loops, recursion, logic

    Disclaimer: I built it

  123. Really? by ZxCv · · Score: 1

    Shop went the way of the dodo (I wonder how many lobbies benefitted from that), and now PE and art are following.

    I'm not sure what school district you happen to be part of, but I sure wouldn't want to be there.

    The high school my kids are zoned for still has shop (wood, metal, AND auto) classes (multiple levels, in fact), so while I don't know for sure, I would figure that most of the other (if not all) high schools here have it as well. And PE is still a daily required class for 2 years of high school (as it has been for 20+ years). And as far as art, there are more art-related classes than ever before. In fact, there are more classes of just about all types. And this is at one of the oldest high schools in one of the largest school districts in the country, so my instinct tells me that the majority of other high schools are able to pull off the same things.

    --

    Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
  124. Try "How To Design Programs" by hendrikboom · · Score: 1

    Have a look at "How to design programs". It's based on the language Scheme, which makes it easy to deal with topics that would be "advanced" in other languages, but easy in others. Scheme is a fairly good first language -- simple concepts, great generality of principles, and not a lot of obstructive details dictated by the limitations of historical machines. And it has a lot of implementations, most of them free. In my place, we use PLT scheme.

    1. Re:Try "How To Design Programs" by hendrikboom · · Score: 1

      I meant. "easy in Scheme", not "easy in pthers"

  125. I'd recommend... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Personally, I'd look at using the "...for Dummies" series of books for introductory courses. They're pretty well written, written at a "low" enough language that they're easy to understand, and reasonably priced. They're also updated within reasonable timeframes so you don't really have to worry about getting too outdated.

    For certifications, there are tons of books available. Although another poster didn't like the A+ anymore, I think it would be useful for some high school students to do the A+ as a first step, to see if they're truly interested in learning more and taking computers as a career path.

  126. How Linux Works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    check out "How Linux Works" on amazon.

  127. Two books that I highly recomend by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I honestly can't pass up the chance to recommend my favorite book - it attempts describe exactly how something works, which is quite useful.

    It is TCP/IP illustrated Volume 1. It describes the IP protocols in detail - if you have a specific question that needs to be answered ("How does recursive DNS work" or "Why do I keep on seeing duplicate ack packets") this book has the answer. It does not cover lower level protocols (ethernet, ATM, etc) but it's a great book. It's slightly out of date (for example, it only has SNMP v1), and doesn't cover routing protocols (except it might cover RIP, I don't recall), however it's a great and extremely useful book.

    There are two other books in the series, volume 2 is a programmer's reference to the protocols in volume 1, and volume 3 goes over a number of lesser known IP protocols (T/TCP for example).

  128. Have a look at CsUnplugged.com by KissForThePeople · · Score: 1

    It's good for introducing concepts, and should keep students' attention. It sounds like you are trying to cover a lot, and I hope that you don't just expect the students to read through a book to gain understanding - i.e. you can do a lot just by bringing in an old computer and pulling it apart. As some others have pointed out, the internet is full of material. I would suggest having a look for video tutorials on the web, and that way students don't need textbooks at all - you can just refer them to the appropriate sites and tutorials

  129. Books I would recommend by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure what the goal is for your third class, but I would recommend the following books:

    -Upgrading and repairing pc's by Scott Mueller (QUE), a book they'll no doubt use for some time and it's something you can use as skeleton for a certain aspect of what you want to teach.

    -Running Linux - Dalheimer & Welsh (O'Reilly), a very basic book but I'm not really sure what these people have as knowledge. You can use this to start them off with some basic linux stuff.

    -TCP/IP foundations - Andrew G. Blank(Sybex), again very basic and lacking good information on ipv6 but it'll help explain the basics if they don't know it yet (history, routing, dns etc)

    Using that information you can have them fire up a linux distribution (command line preferably but I guess you can let them use a GUI and open a terminal) and let them experiment with routing. (two network cards required in each pc and enough switches) for example make them go from pc1 to pc4 through pc2 and pc3 creating the routes and gateways through commandline. You can of course take this excercise a step further by explaining the tcdump command and afterwards analysing the obtained dumpfile.

    I would create my own synopsis of everything you've explained. But I would advise that they would start making their own at a point so they learn that they should document everything they do in a network. The way they do that is up to you and depends on what direction you're going in. Personally I would go for some sort of CMS (not a wiki just to be difficult) but if you also want to go deeper into scripting and or programming you can make them create .xml files or something with python(or again whatever you prefer) for which they also have to create a visual interface.

    For the windows part I haven't read any good textbooks that really explain everything properly. But there are some good practical exercises on MSDN, at least on the old one, I'm sure all those Contoso examples are there somewhere.

    Obviously at some point you'll want to work with virtualisation software to avoid everyone having to play around with 5 physical pc's.
    Once they install a server and workstation, teach them how to use sysprep(they'll much appreciate it later) and create a small domain they can play around with with whatever software you like(Do note that if you plan to run Exchange 2007 in a virtual machine with some other client-pc's running, you'll need very heavy hardware).

    I hope this helps, I could keep going, but I'm having a feeling this post is going to get lost and buried in the avalanche of comments.

    Regards,

    Vasa

  130. Forouzan for networking by spads · · Score: 1

    I think Behrouz Forouzan's books networking are a fine place to start, first with Data Communications and Networking followed by TCP/IP Protocol Suite. DCN has the basic physics and developmental evolution (incl. hardware) for telephony and networking. TPS breaks down the Internet pretty well. It is a lot of info, but all of it ultimately simplified and accessible.

    --
    Bukowski said it. I believe it. That settles it.
  131. Here's a box of parts, build a LAMP server... by sprior · · Score: 1

    My favorite real idea for a class would be: 1. here's a box of:
    - parts sufficient to build a computer
    - a printout of the book at http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/
    - a CD with the source tarballs on it and a liveCD to get the machine booting
    - an ethernet connection with a static IP assigned (to make it a little easier)

    2. Build a LAMP server entirely from source (and keep the source directories around for proof)
    3. Progress points for:
    - a bootable machine
    - a pingable machine
    - a static web page
    - a dynamic page
    - a dynamic page with data from a database

  132. K+R by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Make them read the Bible!

  133. MIT textbook list, lesson plans, and lectures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's no reason high schoolers can't be exposed to "college level" material (other than the price of the books). The textbooks used by MIT are by far the best. My master's program used MIT's undergrad textbooks and they are amazing. You can go to the MIT.edu site and get a list of all their textbooks as well as their complete lesson plans. They even have their lectures posted as videos! Check it out: http://watch.mit.edu/

  134. well... by lavaticus · · Score: 1

    it all depends on what the students want to do - I think going through the basics that would prepare them for the lowly servicedesk role to start with would probably be quite benificial.

    Other then that tailor it to the class - how many are planning on being programmers? sysadmins? nwadmins? dbadmins? etc

    Without knowing this information the only thing I would suggest is the following book: Practice of System and Network Administration by Thomas A. Limoncelli (Author), Christina J. Hogan (Author), Strata R. Chalup (Author).

    The books brilliant and doesn't go into the technology but more the principles and the methodology. Also has questions at the end of each chapter and if the class takes an interest in a particular area there are further books recommended.

  135. Check locally... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You may want to check your local Vocational Tech school to see what books they use in their certification courses. Optimally, you would take their classes to understand at least as much as you are trying to teach them.

  136. From a Technology Teacher by mrbuonomo · · Score: 1

    I've been teaching on Long Island in NY for 11 years, for the past 4 years I've used books from GoodHeart-Wilcox for my Computer Information Technology Course (PC Repair and troubleshooting). The only other books I use are Cisco Press for the Cisco Networking Academy Certifications and SDC Publications for our AutoCAD classes.

    The book below does a good job of breaking down key concepts, identifying important terms, and exposes students to sample A+ Certification questions. It is not a perfect A+ Prep book, but a good start and has worked out great in my classes.
    Hope this helps.

    Computer Service and Repair: A Guide to Upgrading, Configuring, Troubleshooting, and Networking Personal Computers
    http://www.g-w.com/products/detail.asp?id=108

    If you want more info contact me at: b.buonomo(at)wi.k12.ny.us

  137. Books are only half of the equasion. by InvaderSevlow · · Score: 1
    You can read about stuff all you want but until you actually go out and DO it, its just all going to be theory. Use the books to teach them how the stuff works, then set them down in front of a pile of broken computers and have them APPLY WHAT THEY WERE TAUGHT.
    Get some computers up and running, then form a shoestring network and advance to the next level of managing that network.
    Introduce more variables into the mix, routers, printers, Macs, etc and see what it takes to get them talking effectively.

    Then when [whatever it is] is working, you break it in some way that requires troubleshooting and set them loose on that. Yes they will break stuff along the way, but that's part of the learning process.

  138. Re:Books are only half of the EQUATION. by InvaderSevlow · · Score: 1

    No, I cant spell. :p

  139. Book Suggestions by shoran · · Score: 1

    Wetdog, I am a resource teacher for the CTE computer programs at our 20 high schools. Here is what we use: A+-----Mike Meyers (Total Seminars) and Jean Andrews (Course) Network+---------Mike Meyers (Total Seminars) IC-3 --------Total Seminars IC-3 Text by Jernigan and Courseâ(TM)s IC-3 book We support these three with the Total Seminars/LearnKey Video Series which we put on our servers and stream out to our schools. We generally get about 60 kids a year certified in Network+ and A+ and a hundred more on IC-3. We will see how we do after employing the video support this year. If you have any questions, please feel free to call or email. I am very active with both CompTIAs E2C program and ISTEs SIGCT, which is right up your alley. You are not alone. Also, Avail yourself to two GREAT training opportunities... In early August every summer CompTIA hosts Breakaway (next year in Las Vegas). They have 1.5 days of preconference training WITH the authors of the above books. Plus other teachers and SMEs run sessions throughout the sessions. There is a nice exhib hall and all meals are on the house so that you can concentrate on sharing with your cohorts. It is AWESOME! Also every June ISTE sponsors NECC, the granddaddy of all educational conferences. The SIGCT hosts many events and sessions that deal with your topics. PLUS it is the biggest EXHIB hall since Comdex closed down. Next June it will be in Washington DC, so should be huge (ie., 17,000 folks)! Both are great, though different. While some may say just hop on the internet, be aware that at home that may be fine, but lots of the great sites are off-limits to schools due to the cussing on the discussion sites. Also, the support you will get from Mike and Jean's sites are what you will need. There is a reason that they are the top two authors in the field. Once you meet them, you will really understand. Scott Horan, IT Internship and Resource Teacher School to Career Office Van Hoose Education Center, 3332 Newburg Road Louisville, KY 40218 (502) 619-3132 cell 485-3320 office scott.horan@jefferson.kyschools.us shoran@insightbb.com

  140. The New Turing Omnibus by nintendo_is_a_cereal · · Score: 1

    decent way to introduce a lot of CS related topics.

  141. plenty of free books introducing programming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    for example
    Bruce Eckel's thinking in c++/java/python http://www.mindview.net/Books
    some good free perl books http://learn.perl.org/
    always javascript or
    Introduction to Computer Science using Java
    http://chortle.ccsu.edu/CS151/cs151java.html

    there's more