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Lenovo Removes Linux Option For Home Buyers
billybob2 writes "Lenovo has stopped selling laptops pre-installed with Linux on its web site, only 8 months after starting the trial program. This means that home customers won't be able to buy a Thinkpad without paying the Microsoft tax. Word has it that the decision to pull the plug on Linux came down from the highest levels of the Chinese company's corporate headquarters. For those looking to buy full-sized laptops and desktops with Linux pre-loaded Dell, System76, ZaReason and Everex all still offer such products."
I suspect the decision was made because of comparatively small demand.
Not every disappointment in life is the result of a Grand Microsoft Conspiracy. (grin)
And people just weren't buying them?
The Microsoft tax isn't that big a deal, at least not in the Thinkpad price range. Were their Linux-based laptops any cheaper? I know some other companies that offer Linux don't offer any discount for it.
A bigger concern is whether they're providing driver support for Linux installation or not.
If they had seriously wanted to hit the market they would have rpovided a variety of options. I was going to buy one, but now I think I'll go Dell.
i bought my laptop for dual-booting, WinXP MCE and Linux. After 4 months of getting tired of it telling me "Use *our* antivirus of choice!" in windows I just gave up and installed linux. Truth be told, I kept my MCE key around, because that gives me the legal right to use it in a VM should the need arise. (But it hasn't, thanks, in part, to everything moving to the web)
Show this to your friends and family that don't know what a real hacker is
I bought a T61 several months ago from them with Suse pre-installed (I then installed the latest version of OpenSuse instead as the pre-installed one was an older, stable and supported version.)
I like it a lot and was planning on doing the same for any future laptop purchases. It's a shame because these are great machines and perfect for Linux (and the kind of person that normally runs Linux.)
However, I ran through the various options before purchasing and it was hard to tell if I was really saving money this way. For the Linux systems the choice of hardware options was more limited than with Windows (which does make sense) and I don't think I was able to set up equal systems which to compare prices with. In the end I think I paid the same or possibly even more for this system than if I had got one with Windows with the intention of not using it.
I think, then, their trial of selling Linux machines failed because they failed to make it a compelling option to the buyer, either financially or otherwise (limited options.)
I still feel good about myself for not giving any money to Microsoft.
http://www.hp.com/sbso/busproducts_notebooks.html
Many of those laptops that can be configured have "FreeDos" as an option for the OS.
Sure, that means it doesn't come with an installed Linux distro, but you can get a customized laptop without the MS tax.
If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
Or perhaps there was no demand.
if it doesnt run linux, it doesnt exist.
Dude. You just made my car disappear.
The state you are in while your HEAD is detached... - wait, what?
On Dell's website, all the Ubuntu models have a note: Ubuntu 8.04 with DVD Playback. What does that mean? That they installed the unlicensed work-around for you or is there some licensed linux DVD decoder?
I don't get why Slashdotters assume that it would be cheaper for computer producers and for consumers to install Linux instead of Windows. We also see this in complaints about the Inspiron 900 costing the same with Linux as without it, and there were some huge posts about that. Here's the deal: software development and support costs too. When a manufacturer puts Linux on their devices, they have to first test it, make sure that it works, and iron out the bugs in the parts that won't work. This takes expensive developer time. Once the product is launched, they probably have to deal with 10x more consumer support requests from each user that bought Linux over those that bought Windows, because people simply won't know how to do things. This costs money too. In contrast, if the company went with Windows, they'd have to pay 40 dollars and then a) the software would work out of the box and b) there would be a much smaller flow of support requests, many of which would be handled by Microsoft. That's worth something - perhaps as much as 40 dollars per machine! If you think about it, 40 dollars is maybe 2 hours of a customer support representative's time. What you guys don't get is that preinstalling Windows on PCs is a business decision that is mutually beneficial for the PC manufacturer and Microsoft. It's beneficial for 99% of consumers too of course.
As long as Linux on the desktop remains a demo scene with ever-changing technology, unstable API, incompatible distros, and idealists that make it difficult for companies to provide binary drivers, things stay that way, and you're going to see PCs preloaded with Windows. If you want Linux to reach end-customers, you need first and foremost to make it one single, stable (as in rarely changing), OS. After that you need to make it usable for people who never open options dialogs and have no clue what a terminal is. After that you need to actually have worthwhile software running on it (Microsoft Office, Flash, Photoshop, a decent media player, etc).
I just bought a new Thinkpad T61 preloaded with Suse Enterprise Edition from Lenovo just a few weeks ago. If I remember correctly, it was roughly $100-120 less than the equivalent model preloaded with Vista. Everything worked out of the box (wireless, suspend, 3D rendering, audio...), although I found the distro to be somewhat buggy. I loaded linux mint on it the other day and it works like a charm. It's a shame they stopped offering linux preloaded. At this point I have virtually no need for windows, and I'd rather not pay for it. As an anecdotal story, I was talking with a Lenovo representative about why they offered Linux on only a few select models. Eventually I started asking about anti-trust law. Her response was continually that Lenovo was aware of the law and that nothing was going to change.
I know when I was looking previously I stumbled upon some other options, such as http://www.emperorlinux.com/ which is still perhaps a viable route.
From the KDE 4.1 announcement page:
"While KDE 4.1 aims at being the first release suitable for early adopting users..."
If you want to be an early adopter, you need to live with the consequences. I've run KDE for years and would never consider moving to KDE 4+ for a least another year or two.
Also KDE != Linux.
Just because you don't know how to use linux doesn't mean it is linux that sucks. Ubuntu seems to have a lot of bugs and KDE 4 isn't stable; so maybe blame the distro and desktop environment instead?
Linux is communist in a sense because the community 'owns' it, anyone can contribute to it regardless of social class, and the community governs itself without need of outside interferance.
These are all fundamental ideals of communism - that all property is communally owned, that all people are equal regardless of class, and that the workers (common people) should be in charge of governing themselves.
The way the Chinese run their country is very far from the ideals of communism, in fact no country that I know has ever had a successful communist government. There has been plenty of dictatorships masquerading as communist though.
> I think, then, their trial of selling Linux machines failed because they failed to make
> it a compelling option to the buyer, either financially or otherwise (limited options.)
We also bought a SUSE loaded Thinkpad recently. Normally we do RedHat based distros but since this one did come with a supported load left it alone. Yes SUSE is different but the user adapted pretty quick.
The point of preload is not just to avoid giving Microsoft money, I'm smart enough to realize Lenovo almost certainly gave Microsoft their per unit tax (no amount of court orders will ever end that practice) but we got three other important things:
1. PRELOAD. Take it out, plug it in and go. Don't underestimate the value of that.
2. NO SUPRISES. If they are preloading Linux on it they won't suddenly switch vendors on wireless chipsets, etc. and hose you. Even if you decide you don't like the flavor of the month a vendor ships the odds are good you can load any other recent distro.
3. SUPPORT. If a vendor preloads Linux you can call them up and get warranty support without having to worry about reloading Windows before shipping it off or ensuring the drive is yanked out.
In the past we bought Thinkpads because they were the best hardware and nobody offered Linux as a supported option so their lack of that didn't hurt them. That isn't true anymore so future purchases won't go to them.
Democrat delenda est
After 4 months of getting tired of it telling me "Use *our* antivirus of choice!" in windows I just gave up and installed linux.
Let me be sure I understand this clearly to confirm you aren't trolling.... you were annoyed by Windows Security Center telling you to install Anti-Virus software? You were not able to simply turn this off? Did you believe you MUST have Anti-Virus software to use the computer rather than rely on common sense practices? Something doesn't quite add up here.
Lenovo shipped Novell's SLED 10 (SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10), but not Ubuntu. Maybe Lenovo selected the wrong distro?
So, does SLED 10 play mp3's and DVD's out of the box?
Don't get me wrong I am a Linux fanboi - it's the only thing I run at home and mostly at work. But having to find and install all the various "non-free" apps from possibly incompatible repos (yum) is a PITA. Probably even more so for a non-technical user.
Having just purchased a T61 (as it was being discontinued), I suspect they have good reasons for not offering Linux right now.
The new T400/T500 use Intel's newest wireless chipset (Wifi 5100), which wasn't supported under Linux at the time of launch (early August). Intel announced support on August 14th, and as far as I know, it's not supported in any stable release of any major distribution. This will change in the coming months, of course, but it makes sense that there's no Linux option now.
The video card is in a similar situation. The laptops with discrete graphics also have integrated graphics which are switchable via driver (for power savings). As far as I know, this switching isn't implemented at all in X and I don't know if you can disable one or the other card. If you order a version with only integrated graphics, I believe it's supported only by the latest version of the intel driver (which isn't yet packaged for many distributions).
Even though I use my T61 for Linux, I still bought a Vista Home version for three reasons: 1.) Every so often I like to have Windows for something, 2.) The hardware options for the Linux version were crippled - slower processor line, etc. and 3.) OpenSuse isn't my distro of choice anyway. You'd have to buy the dock separately (no big deal), because the support for it under Linux isn't official (and it took some time to get things to work reasonably well for me).
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
Fortunately, my toaster is safe.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
They are available from http://laclinux.com./ They have a decent selection, if not all.
> Is it really that hard for them to make Ubuntu an option in the OS choice box?
Yes it is. Because above all else, end users MUST NEVER become aware of the amount Windows adds to the sticker price. That is what is behind all of these games. Windows must be an invisible component lest users begin questioning why they must buy Windows and keep on rebuying it with each and every hardware purchase. The entire monopoly depends upon this, thus Microsoft would mercilessly punish any OEM who broke that rule.
Democrat delenda est
because of comparatively small demand.
Maybe the "demand" was small because no one could find it on their f-ing web site.
I wanted a new laptop w/ Linux last month, and I looked at virtually every Thinkpad on their web site, and I could select Linux on almost none of them.
I can almost say the same thing about Dell. Only a small fraction of their laptops can I find Linux available.
Most of these companies just are paying lip service to Linux.
Sure, that means it doesn't come with an installed Linux distro, but you can get a customized laptop without the MS tax.
If a laptop comes without an installed Linux distro, it also comes without the manufacturer's assurance that there exists a Linux driver for all hardware in the laptop.
You probably have a better defense having the OEM licence than none at all, especially if you were running a single copy in a VM on the machine it was tied to.
The clause was likely intended to prevent someone from running a copy of windows in a VM on some super-powered server or something.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Ironically, it's also close to the ideals of a free market. There's no friction, no real barrier to entry, and competition is very pure and open. Supply is limitless, thus cost goes to $0, which isn't happening elsewhere in the software industry. In a way, free market economics says that the ease of reproducing software would drive the cost to zero, which has happened in a lot of ways.
Morally speaking, while most people would argue that there's nothing wrong with charging money for software, almost everyone will agree that the community that's sprung up around open source is very right. It's heart warming, really.
1) F/OSS supporters don't (generally) claim that all property should be communally owned. The concept of ownership -- communal or otherwise -- doesn't even apply to things which lack scarcity, such as code. To the extent that some people claim it does apply ("IP") it isn't "owned" by the community, but rather by the individual contributors. Cooporation between individual property owners for mutual benefit is a tenet of capitalism, not communism.
2) The idea that all individuals have equal rights under the law, though by no means universal, is not unique to communism. Capitalism, for example, endorses the same principle. Furthermore, there are different "classes" within F/OSS; administrators, maintainers, users, etc. The level of access to the project repositories, and the level of influence over the project's goals, varies according between these "classes".
3) Communism involves collective self-government: the "collective will" of the group governs each individual member's actions. F/OSS projects, by contrast, exist in a state of literal anarchy (no rulers) consistent with individual sovereignty, self-ownership, individual rights, and private property. There is no comparison between the two; they exist on opposite ends of the spectrum.
"The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
Don't feed the trolls please. It wastes everyone's time involved, and only makes them more likely to do it.
Trolls hate being ignored.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
I see what you did there. Very clever. How is that working out for you? ...Dr. Phil?! Is that you?
OK, Smartguy. Please explain the difference in logical content between these three conversations:
"Nobody voted for Nader." "I did."
Translation: Nader received a negligible quantity of votes. Your vote was one of the negligible few.
"There was no demand for this product." "I bought one."
Translation: There was so little demand for this product that it was not viable. There were so few of you who purchased this product that it was not profitable.
"P is an empty set." "I am a member of P."
Translation: P is an empty set. You are an element of P. You are NULL.
WARNING: Smoking this sig may cause lowered IQ, insanity or short term memory loss. It is also really bad for your monit
For the typical consumer how has no idea what Linux is, there is little point in a preloaded Linux system. Windows is fine for them, and has more consumer-type software.
That leaves as the market for these things the people that actually want Linux. But people who know enough about Linux to actually want it probably want a specific distribution. If the preloaded distribution is that one, great!
But if the one they want is not the preloaded one, then they are going to end up doing their own install anyway. In that case, the only advantage they really get buying one of the preloaded Linux systems is that they know the hardware works with Linux (maybe--some companies that do preloads simply don't support all of their own hardware under Linux).
But there is also a disadvantage. Windows often comes bundled with third party software, and there also often ads from third parties included in the packaging. The companies that make the bundled software, or that the ads are for, pay the computer companies to be included. The computer company often makes enough money that way to more than pay for the Windows license. Because of this, it is often cheaper for them to sell a given model with Windows than to sell it without Windows.
If this is the case, the Linux fan who is going to install his own distro over the preloaded one is better off, financially, buying the Windows computer and wiping it.
Bottom line: the market for whom Linux preloads makes sense is only a small subset of the people that want to run Linux on their new computer. Hence, it is no surprise that manufacturers are not finding it worthwhile.
So all you are really saying is that you don't actually know how to admin XP at all? Telling XP that you will monitor your own anti-virus is a couple of clicks, and it will never bother you again.
Sounds like you just wanted an excuse to post the same old vitrol.
My toaster runs FreeBSD. I like my toast burned all to hell. Flames and pitchforks and dancing devils.
Actually you can turn that off. That lovely little nag feature is a part of "Security Center". It's a service that you can disable. It's one of the first things I do on XP after install.
yvan eht nioj
windows would complain that I didn't have antivirus -- and no you couldn't turn it off.
Have to call you on this one.
Bullshit.
Though there are multiple methods to remove that message, this is by far the most effective.
Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
Who are they to say I can't use Linux just because I decided to buy a home?!
(Gotta love the English language)
To be fair, the F/OSS for playing MP3s and DVDs is very good. It just isn't legal in the US.
Linuz also has a property that is never true in the physical world, it's in infinite supply. That means it must also be maintenance-free, since you could always get a "new" one and so noone has to be forced to work just to maintain the status quo. It also takes care of all control issues, while in the real world many resources are naturally limited (say beluga caviar), others can be made limited (limit production, hoarding) and the ones in control of that scarce resource now has power. That can be bargained with other people in power so that those in power are rich and the others poor. In short, the reason Linux works and communism doesn't is that the infinite supply renders all egoists and freeloaders harmless. A society on the other hand could never function with everybody consuming much more than they produce.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
In partnership with a hardware company in India called Zenith, Microsoft is a PC OEM for a system called the IQpc. That was really not a smart move on Microsoft's part.
All the next billion users are not belong to Microsoft. Not theirs. The backlash from this decision is just now reaching the upper levels of Microsoft management as their platform is deprecated by long term partners who understand that if Microsoft gets share in this market, they're dead. This is the same reason you don't have a Microsoft branded cellular phone.
Help stamp out iliturcy.