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Judge Rules Defense Can Get DUI Machine Source Code

pfleming alerts us to developments in Arizona on a subject we have frequently discussed (e.g. FL, MN, NJ): efforts in DUI cases to obtain source code to devices that analyze blood alcohol levels. On Friday a Pima County Superior Court judge ruled that the software that powers the Intoxilyzer 8000 must be revealed to defense lawyers. "Defense attorneys representing more than 20 people arrested on felony DUI charges agreed to consolidate their cases into one and to argue it before [Judge] Bernini ... The source codes are crucial because the Intoxilyzer 8000 sometimes gives 'weird' or inexplicable results ... Six other states have been battling CMI [maker of the Intoxilyzer] over the source code — Minnesota, Florida, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Tennessee and New Jersey... CMI has currently racked up over $1.2 million in fines in a civil contempt order for not disclosing the source code in Florida."

67 of 270 comments (clear)

  1. Why not prosecute? by rtfa-troll · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm sorry, but if a company is making it impossible for DUI prosecutions to be done fairly, the company officers should be sitting in jail whilst we wait to find out if they can get the source code together or not.

    --
    =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    1. Re:Why not prosecute? by collinstocks · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They probably lost the source code and are too ashamed to tell anyone.

    2. Re:Why not prosecute? by Courageous · · Score: 5, Informative

      It doesn't require a prosecution. If the judge gets irritated enough regarding their civil contempt, he can jail them summarily until they comply. I think, however, that judges are often reluctant to do this.

      I should imagine that there is a long list of well established procedures for handling contempt. While I think it's well within a judge's power to jail almost indefinitely for contempt until the contempt is remedied, I suspect that there are rules of jurisprudence that govern them otherwise to some degree.

      The contempt charges can continue indefinitely by the way. They will have to reveal their code eventually or go bankrupt, and this still won't get them out of contempt. IOW, it's only a matter of time before they reveal, and they are being immensely stupid.

      There is this story (urban legend?) that Larry Flint of Hustler fame was fined $10K per day for contempt once. He sent the fine in pennies. In response, the Judge said he liked pennies and would gladly accept $50K a day paid in pennies.

      One should not baldly thwart the judge. Makes you wonder who their lawyers are.

      C//

    3. Re:Why not prosecute? by Rich0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Hmm - they don't seem to hesitate much when the issue is a news reporter refusing to testify about sources. It seems like this kind of discretion is reserved for corrupt C-level officers...

    4. Re:Why not prosecute? by LiENUS · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm not sure a find for contempt of court plays by anywhere near the same rules as a debt. Judges have a lot of freedom with contempt of court charges. Did you know that there are actually certain conditions where they can jail you for contempt for refusing to provide them with incriminating information (note: I said information, not evidence or testimony.)

    5. Re:Why not prosecute? by poopdeville · · Score: 2

      Who said his pennies were rejected? The judge demanded more, for showing his contempt for the court unnecessarily and tying up the court's resources. They literally had to deal with a million pennies per day. Yes, the court made their problem worse, but Flynt was then in a position where he had to find 50 million pennies every day or go to jail.

      Now, whether the myth is true or not is a question for Grant Imahara.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    6. Re:Why not prosecute? by jmauro · · Score: 3, Informative

      While private organizations can actually refuse to accept any current demoniation (pennies included, though it's usually $100 bills), government organizations (like the courts) cannot. If they refuse to accept the pennies which would be legal tender the debt to the government would be cancelled.

    7. Re:Why not prosecute? by mikesd81 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, see, you want someone NOT hired by any governmental body so it has a chance of being less bias and corrupt. The judge should appoint someone not involved any way in the case to inspect the code.

      --
      That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
    8. Re:Why not prosecute? by Courageous · · Score: 2

      As another poster pointed out, the tender was not refused. It was, however, increased for showing deliberate disrespect to the court. Or so the story goes.

      C//

    9. Re:Why not prosecute? by SUB7IME · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, see, you want someone NOT hired by any governmental body so it has a chance of being less bias and corrupt.

      The judge should appoint someone not involved any way in the case to inspect the code.

      If the judge appoints someone to inspect the code, then the government (via the judiciary) has hired someone (the engineer). Your request is paradoxical.

    10. Re:Why not prosecute? by slashqwerty · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They will have to reveal their code eventually or go bankrupt

      If a bug is revealed in their code there is likely to be a class action lawsuit against them on behalf of everyone that was ever convicted of driving while intoxicated on account of their device. The costs associated with a single conviction far exceed the cost of one of these machines. The company would go bankrupt if that were to happen.

    11. Re:Why not prosecute? by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 2, Funny

      The "government" is a tripartite entity, composed of the legislative judicial and executive branches. In Madison's conception each branch should be jealous of the others, and bicker constantly, thus preventing tyranny. Given that model of government, the judge's consultant shouldn't care what the police and district attorney want.

      It's no more paradoxical than trinitarian theology :)

  2. Idiotic by langelgjm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In court documents, Deputy Pima County Attorney Robin Schwartz said the defense attorneys' requests "bear all the hallmarks of a fishing expedition." Common sense shows that people rely on software and source-code information for everyday matters, Schwartz argued. One just looks at the results to know if something works or not. Schwartz used electricity as an example. "No one . . . needs to see a schematic of wiring to know that when he flips the switch on the wall, the light will come on," Schwartz said.

    Um, that assumes that you are comparing the result with a known value. The point of a breathalyzer is to determine an unknown value.

    Unless of course this attorney is saying that they already know the accused are drunk, in which case the breathalyzer is redundant.

    --
    "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
    1. Re:Idiotic by Media_Scumbag · · Score: 3, Informative

      Um, that assumes that you are comparing the result with a known value. The point of a breathalyzer is to determine an unknown value.

      Unless of course this attorney is saying that they already know the accused are drunk, in which case the breathalyzer is redundant.

      INAL, but I was convicted of a DWI.

      The known value is an reference alcohol unit pre-applied prior to each test as a calibration, to establish that the machine is accurate. The unit is equivalent to a reading obtained in medical studies show to prove the average person intoxicated. This calibration is noted on your Breathalyzer card, along with your results (usually 2, spaced an hour apart, with different reference units), which will be noted on the complaint, and included in the arrest report.

    2. Re:Idiotic by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      "Most of the time you aren't given a breathalyzer test until you have already been arrested. If you've been arrested, that means the police have probable cause to believe that your under the influence of alcohol. Typically in a DUI case that probable cause is going to consist of several factors, including simple observations of your behavior, odors, your eyes, field sobriety tests (horizontal gaze nystagmus, walk and turn, one-leg stand, etc.) Based on those observation and tests, if the officer has reason to believe you are probably under the influence, he then arrests and takes you to the police station where you take the breathalyzer test to get an exact number.

      A DUI prosecution can be easily proven if the officer has done his job well without needing the breathalyzer test. That said, the test is still done because it provides further evidence of guilt, and in states that provide increased penalties based on the BAC level, can bump up your punishment."

      That's why for hypothetical situations...I consulted a lawyer in my state. He basically said, if you're pulled over, and you know you're near or over the limit....say nothing, take no tests, just hold your hands out for the cuffs. You're going to jail that night and you know it. Taking the field tests, and all usually video taped by the cops, does NOTHING for you, except give them evidence against you. He said to basically say nothing, do nothing, take no tests. At the worst...they may suspend your license for refusal to take the tests, but, at least, you don't get a DWI because they can't prove you were intoxicated.

      And generally, if this is the case...they will give you a restricted license, to drive to and from work, etc....and in a year, you can get your normal license back.

      The trick is...do NOT give them evidence to be used against you. You will be very inconvenienced, but, at least you won't have a DWI on your record which can screw up your life...insurance and otherwise. With the legal BAC being reduced to a ridiculously low .08 these days (thanks o the feds blackmailing the states with tax revenue withholding threats)...most anyone that has some wine with dinner is in jeopardy of being picked up for a DWI....I have no problem in not giving them any help in the matter.

      I know laws in states vary, but,

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    3. Re:Idiotic by langelgjm · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The known value is an reference alcohol unit pre-applied prior to each test as a calibration, to establish that the machine is accurate. The unit is equivalent to a reading obtained in medical studies show to prove the average person intoxicated. This calibration is noted on your Breathalyzer card, along with your results (usually 2, spaced an hour apart, with different reference units), which will be noted on the complaint, and included in the arrest report.

      Good to know, but still doesn't really address the issue. Here's why.

      When my father was still practicing, he had a digital scale that was miscalibrated. Up to about 60 lbs, it would give fairly accurate values (maybe within 1/2 lb), but above that, it became increasingly inaccurate, consistently underweighing. Thus, even if you had weighed two reference weights of 30 and 60 lbs, you would have thought that the scale was properly calibrated.

      Secondly, if the unit is designed to show that the average person is intoxicated, how can it be uniformly applied to people of different sexes, different weights, etc.? I suppose they might have several units for this purpose...

      In any case, my point still stands - they are trying to determine an unknown value - your BAC. They may be able to measure a known value with the device, but your BAC remains an unknown value. Ideally, there would be another method of measurement which could produce the same results.

      Furthermore, as others have pointed out, if you really are intoxicated, it's probably quite obvious, and the case shouldn't rest on the results of the device. If, however, the only evidence available is the results of this device, they'd better make damn sure it's accurate. A great way to do that would be to test it on human subjects whose BAC is known by another test - and TFA specifically says that this particular machine hasn't been tested on human subjects, only on simulations.

      --
      "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
    4. Re:Idiotic by StormReaver · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "INAL, but I was convicted of a DWI."

      I am a computer programmer, and rest assured that the manner in which the machine handles the calibration test doesn't necessarily indicate how it handles the breath test. Both tests likely have different entry points to the core functions which do the measurements, meaning that there is more than one way for the machine to screw up. There is also no way to be sure that the machine is using the same code to do the measurements. For all we know, the calibration code and the breath test code use completely different paths. Perhaps even a copy/paste/alteration job which introduced (un)detected errors.

      Simply put, there is no way to know that the firmware is accurate without verifying its source code. Observing its effects under controlled conditions may simply be exercising a different code path than the device uses in the actual tests. All we have is the manufacturer's assurance, and being stuck with proprietary software will teach you how worthless that is.

  3. echo round(rand(1,40)/100."%"; by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Weird numbers? What weird numbers...?

    1. Re:echo round(rand(1,40)/100."%"; by TD-Linux · · Score: 5, Funny

      I find your lack of closing parenthesis disturbing.

      Clearly you have had no experience in the Lisp.

  4. Re:cheers! by paitre · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This isn't about OpenSource.

    It's about making sure that the device providing so-called scientific evidence for use at trial is producing evidence properly and -accurately-.

    I'm surprised it isn't already on the books that source code for devices such as this be disclosed for that purpose already.

  5. Sixth Ammedment by mangu · · Score: 4, Informative

    the accused shall enjoy the right ... to be confronted with the witnesses against him;

    In this case the withess is a machine, he has the constitutional right to know how that machine works

    1. Re:Sixth Ammedment by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, the witness is the police officer who administered the sobriety test. The machine is just one of the pieces of evidence that the officer uses to make an arrest.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    2. Re:Sixth Ammedment by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If the witness in my case is a human, do I have a constitutional right to know how the human works?

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    3. Re:Sixth Ammedment by Media_Scumbag · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Convicted of a DWI.

      What I found most intellectually troubling is that, in AZ (among toughest DUI laws in the country), the violations schedule awards the most "points" for potential crimes - actions that are crimes because of their potential to cause harm, property damage or death. The next "rung" down on the "ladder" includes crimes that result in harm, property damage or death.

      I know I was wrong, and I no longer drink at all. Drunk driving is a serious problem, that should be addressed.

      However, the way in which DUIs laws are written, there is little room for a judge's interpretation of circumstances. In AZ, you are LIKELY to be convicted if you have ANY amount of alcohol in your system and take a Breathalyzer test - under "impaired to the slightest degree."

      What that conviction would get you typically sentenced to is: 90-day revocation of your driver's license, (30-days complete restriction, 60 allowed of work/school restricted), 30 days incarceration (29 suspended), $500-1500 in fines, 6-10 weeks of alcohol education, 1 year of driving with an ignition interlock (a breathalyzer to start your car), 20 hours of community service, and possibly, 2 years of probation. Your insurance goes up 30-50%.

      This is mandatory minimum sentencing, and the judge has little power to affect the outcome except to change a few numbers on the jail term (more), fines, education and probation.

      Also, 'probable cause" is not necessary to even make the original traffic stop. The term used now is "reasonable suspicion," and does not require you to commit any other violations: You might be driving just after the bars close at 2am. You might be in an area know for its' nightlife, and happen upon a roadblock - in short, your civil rights are intrinsically limited whenever you get in a car.

      BTW- atorneys anecdotally say that the Intoxalyzers' readings often can be off by as much as 20%.

    4. Re:Sixth Ammedment by Skapare · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If the police officer relies on the reading from the device, then it is not really the police officer's judgment being presented, but just a re-iteration of what he read. Is the police officer able to testify about the accuracy of the device? Is the police officer able to testify about whether a device driver that reads values from an ADC register is doing so with the correct clock synchronization to ensure that does skew the time differential meaning of the results?

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    5. Re:Sixth Ammedment by PacketShaper · · Score: 4, Informative

      Absolutely. Many lawyers have successfully defended their clients due to testimony from witnesses with a history of lying or being otherwise discredited.

    6. Re:Sixth Ammedment by crimguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sorry, you have it backwards. The Intoxilyzer 8000 is used after an arrest. It's a lot bigger than the PBT you're probably imagining. The cop is just a tool to provide probable cause for the arrest. The machine is an evidence gathering machine that will be used to convict some poor hapless schmuck for DUI.

  6. Well, there's one solution to all this ... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    rule that all programming used for government functions be open source, unless there's an overriding reason for it to be closed. This outfit appears to have manufactured and marketed a fundamentally flawed piece of technology that may very well have resulted in prison time for innocent people. Not acceptable ... a manufacturer's need to maintain a competitive edge should not be held more important than our right to not be falsely accused and wrongly imprisoned. Now, of course there may be other issues with CMI's product other than the firmware, but a detailed examination of the code is a good first step.

    Furthermore, the people responsible for the decision to market the Intoxilyzer should be held accountable for the device's failures, especially if they sold it knowing that the design was defective. Sure, it costs more money to properly certify a design, and to implement effective quality controls. Still, if auto manufacturers have to suffer multi-million-dollar lawsuits over tiny flaws in vehicle design, these guys should hardly get off scot-free.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  7. A few points.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I work as a law clerk in Minnesota, and while (being a clerk and all) I haven't "ordered" per se the source code be turned over, I've written many orders doing so -- until the Minnesota Supreme Court created a very high hurdle to getting it and no one has since requested. As stated by the attorney in the article, CMI won't turn the code over. Period. They simply will not obey court orders to do so. Minnesota is currently suing CMI in federal court, and we'll see how that turns out. But barring a federal court order, I assume they will simply continue to refuse to turn the code over. The result? Hundreds of DUIs being thrown out in Minnesota alone. Nice to see that the company cares more about their IP than the safety of our roads.

    1. Re:A few points.... by Skapare · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This should then result in police departments returning these defective devices for a refund, and further lawsuits as a result. I wonder if they care more about their IP than selling a product. What we need to do is get the word out to all police departments and prosecutors that they face serious hurdles keeping real offenders off the streets if they use this company's products. Let these company executives choose between being able to prove the accuracy of the device in court (if it is so) or going out of business from lack of sales in all 50 states.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    2. Re:A few points.... by commodoresloat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ... as opposed to the defense attorneys who will do their jobs?

      Fixed that for you.

    3. Re:A few points.... by Skapare · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the device can't be proven to be accurate, then it's no different than an expert witness who testified against the defendant later refusing to disclose his credentials that would, in theory, show him to be an expert in the field. Courts do throw out such testimonies, and sometimes even declare mistrials (if the judge feels the fraudulent testimony cannot be ignored by the jury). And such "experts" don't get used, anymore (if not actually jailed for contempt).

      Of course defense attorneys try to get their clients off. That's their job. Prosecutors also try to get the defendant convicted. That's their job. The defendant is either really innocent or really guilty and it's the judge's job to make sure the process is headed to finding the correct answer.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    4. Re:A few points.... by PMuse · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The result? Hundreds of DUIs being thrown out in Minnesota alone. Nice to see that the company cares more about their IP than the safety of our roads.

      Law enforcement will soon come to grips with the fact that it cannot get a conviction with CMI. Law enforcement will then buy other equipment or use some other sobriety test.

      At that point, CMI will be able to sell DUI products only in states that have already ruled that the source need not be turned over. Eventually, they will go out of business or cave.

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
    5. Re:A few points.... by Bert64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Getting their clients liable for huge amounts of fines is hardly the outcome a lawyer would aim for... Any lawyer would probably recommend they turn over the code so as to comply with the court order.
      Why is it so important to them not to turn over the code? They must have something big to hide, because handing over the code to the court so the defense can examine it is hardly a huge burden... Not like they're being compelled to release it to the general public.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    6. Re:A few points.... by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The components have established tests to ensure they are not defective and haven't been tampered with, especially if they are off the shelf components which are also used in other devices. Since they are components, intended for third parties to use to construct larger devices, their function and interfaces will be well known and documented.

      The software is presumably bespoke, and is an unknown quantity, it could also potentially be used to hide backdoors. It is not intended to be sold as a separate component for integration with other components, and is thus not fully documented if at all.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    7. Re:A few points.... by Peyna · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A defense attorney who will do "anything" to get his client off is not doing his job and should be disbarred. A defense attorney who will do "anything within the bounds of the law and legal ethics" to represent the "best interest" of his client is doing his job.

      Sometimes the right thing for your client is not getting away with it.

      --
      What?
  8. Re:cheers! by dunezone · · Score: 4, Informative
    http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=288007&cid=20470751

    Even in such a simple case there are many things it should be testing. Is the A/D output sane? Does it take 3 quick samples while someone is blowing and average them or just take it once (which could be wrong for some reason)? According to the article, it doesn't look like it does. It calibrates the wind sensor, but doesn't check that the calibration is sane. It doesn't report errors unless they happen 32 times in a row. It disables the watchdog timer. It disables the interrupt for illegal instructions. It doesn't meet any coding standards. It contains code with things like "this is temporary for now" in it. There is an obvious reason why they didn't want the code released.

    This was a partial summary of another breathalyzer source code that was opened up in another case. This has nothing to do with open source this has to do with software that is half-ass'd but determines if someone has to go through years of court hearings, meetings, suspended license, and a whole waste of money because some company rushed their software engineer to write code that may be giving wrong results all together.

    This code should be open to public discrimination, there would be no trade secrets if the law protects the code from someone else using it after its been opened to public discrimination because every company would have to disclose their software.

  9. Re:cheers! by HiThere · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Then there needs to be a way to prove that the source code provided matches the binary code being executed. But if they can't provide the source code, then there's no reason at all to believe that it's honest.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  10. Source code is irrelevant by TD-Linux · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While there may prove to be some problem in the source code that destroys accuracy, it would be far more likely that any error is caused by the actual sensor. The only real error I can see them making in the source code would be averaging multiple readings from the sensor together.

    The real way to determine if the Intoxilyzer is accurate is to do repeated lab tests using known concentrations of alcohol in air. This would take both software and hardware into account.

    1. Re:Source code is irrelevant by danzona · · Score: 2, Insightful

      While there may prove to be some problem in the source code that destroys accuracy, it would be far more likely that any error is caused by the actual sensor.

      Your assumptions that the manufacturer of the tester wants a fair test is unverified.

      I'm not saying that this is the case, but what if the manufacturer, who is selling to law enforcement, wants to build a tester that will err on the side of too many positives? For example, what if the auditing the source revealed that the tester takes 5 readings and reports the highest value?

      I think that it is reasonable for someone accused of a crime by a machine to know how that machine works.

  11. Keep this idiot away from any kind of electricity by Skapare · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Schwartz used electricity as an example.

    "No one . . . needs to see a schematic of wiring to know that when he flips the switch on the wall, the light will come on," Schwartz said.

    And what would this guy do if he finds that sometimes the light doesn't come on? Or the light goes off on its own? Or comes on by itself? Or flickers and buzzes? An electrician would need to know the wiring involved. A diagram or schematic would be used, if available, or else he would have to trace the wires (reverse engineering).

    And this analogy doesn't even apply to a measurement device. What if he uses a volt meter that says the voltage is 120 volts ... does he assume that because the meter deflected that it's reading is correct? It could be a 240 volt circuit that has each wire only 120 volts relative to ground.

    Any device that cannot be independently verified as operating correctly at all times should not have any of its results submitted in court for any purpose other than to argue that the device is defective in a case against the manufacturer.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  12. Courts deal with this kind of thing a lot by Skapare · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They just have an expert witness examine the code. It would be someone with experience in the kind of assembly code involved, and experience developing firmware for measurement devices like this. It is the testimony of the expert, not the source code itself, that would be presented to the jury. Just because you can't grok assembly code doesn't mean no one can. Obviously someone had to write the stuff.

    Sadly, it may be the case that this manufacturer hired someone like you to develop it, and it was their first time writing for that CPU architecture, and under the memory and speed constraints involved in the hardware selected for the device. Perhaps it gives flaky results simply because values are not read from registers in sufficient time for it to have the correct meaning. The hardware may be providing the next interval reading, but the software assumes it's from an earlier time interval, and differentiates the values incorrectly. There are lot of other possible problems that can happen when interfacing between software and hardware. Just look at all the bugs device drivers in common computer systems have.

    Don't forget here that we are talking about a device that gets substantially less testing than a driver in Windows, and gets deployed for use in mobile environments that subject the device to hostile conditions like vibration and mishandling. And consider that there are fewer of these devices made and sold than there are beta test copies of a new version of Windows. Which will have the greater scale of testing in the intended environment?

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  13. Is there a legitimate interest? by wfstanle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The software should be available to those who have a legitimate interest. The source code for ANY machine being used to gather evidence should be available to the defense. The judge in such a case should get to decide if the defense needs to see the source code. If closed source software is leaked to the public, then some sort of sanction would be appropriate.

    This raises the issue of software on election machines... The entire voting public has a legitimate interest about haw their votes are counted. The only way around this is that the software running should be publicly available. It doesn't have to be open source as far as copyrights are concerned, just the public should have the right to examine the source code.

    1. Re:Is there a legitimate interest? by evanbd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why restrict it to the defense? The police and the justice system ostensibly serve the public; there's no reason the public shouldn't be allowed to see the source code. The code could remain copyrighted; there's no need for it to be free for anyone to use, merely avaiable for anyone to inspect. I see no reason these companies need to keep the code secret as well -- it certainly doesn't serve the public interest.

    2. Re:Is there a legitimate interest? by mikesd81 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      From the article:

      However, unlike the Intoxilyzer 5000, it isn't patented, so defense experts can't obtain the diagrams and source codes needed to figure out exactly how it works, Nesci said.

      I think they're using this as the reason to keep the code secret.

      --
      That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
  14. Re:cheers! by wdhowellsr · · Score: 5, Informative

    This has already happened with radar guns. If they are not calibrated frequently they will register a tree moving at twenty miles an hour.

    That being said, in Florida, even if you are below the legal limit, you can still be charged with driving while impaired if it can be shown that your driving was impaired.

    One of my closest friends is a Criminal Defense Attorney and he tells everyone he knows, "Don't drink a drop and drive". Also, you are within your legal rights in all fifty states to request a blood test instead of the breath test. You will be booked, but the results will be indisputable in court. So if you're sure you only drank one beer it will be dead on.

  15. I disagree. by raehl · · Score: 5, Insightful

    At some point, the suspects were caught, and the state needed to collect evidence of their BAC. Unfortunately, the state, instead of using a device that could provide accurate, verifiable evidence, used a device that, due to the lack of source code, could not provide verifiable evidence. Since the evidence is not verifiable, then the evidence is not admissible. Next time, the state should buy and use breathalyzers that produce admissible evidence.

    While their action is despicable, the breathalyzer vendor didn't agree to provide their source code as part of the purchase, and shouldn't be forced to do so after the fact because the state didn't buy a device suitable for the task.

    It's a bit like if I went to the state and offered to sell them a breathalyzer, and delivered a bicube blood alcohol measurement device, which is used by giving the two cubes to the suspect, having them throw the cubes on the ground, and then counting the number of dots that are showing on the top faces of the cubes. The state should know my breathalyzer isn't going to produce admissible evidence and shouldn't buy it and try and use the results in court.

    Just like voting machines, states need to learn to stop spending millions of dollars on technology that doesn't work.

    1. Re:I disagree. by JosephMast · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't understand why the source code itself is the distinction between something being verifiable or non-verifiable. It seems the results of the machine under standard testing would.

      If we stood your biocube up to the similar tests that any real device would go though (being presented with samples with a known alcohol percentage) your system would get some right, some wrong and you could then say, of a sample size X, the device accurately determined the BAC of Y samples with a accuracy window of Z.

      This data (as well as the device itself - generally) would be available for use during any case which this was used in. For example, if (for the sake of argument) the initial tests came out with 100% accuracy - the defense would have the device available to conduct another set of tests (And another, and another) until they could show evidence that the measuring device itself was faulty - or at least inconsistent. In an ideal system, this would lead to reasonable doubt that the test worked, and the defense would win the case.

      I don't see why the real device wouldn't be put up to the same test regardless of what drives the device (hardware, software, vanilla pudding, whatever) to determine if it is providing data in an accurate enough way to be used as evidence. If the device is known to have inconsistencies like the summary states, it would seem like testing would be able to show this (caused by software or not) - hence reasonable doubt of any readings. It's up to us (as people who would be on a jury) to determine whether Y correct out of X samples is accurate enough to convict someone in our society.

      I'm all for the company to release the software - but I'm not 100% convinced that a software bug being shown in court would cause a device like this to fail on the above criteria.

      Lets say (for the sake of argument) that the device consists of:
      a physical sensor of some sort
      a way to adjust the input of the sensor (since there's always variance on those sorts of things),
      software which reads this adjusted input and displays the result (perhaps averaging samples over time, etc, etc).

      A normal production model would go through the testing described above, have the input adjusted until the results displayed by the software met standard criteria, then the adjustment would be locked and the unit would ship.

      Even in the case where the software could have a significant bug, like always adding .15 to every read, the system as a whole would be adjusted to compensate for this.

      And while the bug in this case would definitely be used in court - I have the feeling it would be more of the "get an guilty person free" rather than the "showing true reasonable doubt of the system" type of use - since the device as a whole would be accurate and precise, whether that bug existed or not.

      --
      (define the-question (or (* 2 b) (not (* 2 b))))
  16. no by commodoresloat · · Score: 4, Funny

    The problem is the source code looks something like this:

    if ($suspect == black) {
            print ".12";
    }
    elsif ($suspect == hispanic) {
            print ".14";
    }
    elsif ($suspect == irish) {
            print "ERROR";
    }

    1. Re:no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'm Irish, you insensitive clod!

      Seriously, though, people make a big fuss if you make fun of just about any ethnic group other than the Irish. But you can say all you want about the Irish and get away with it. Racists!

    2. Re:no by rubycodez · · Score: 4, Funny

      you are absolutely correct, it's improper to make fun of any ethnic group, except of course the damn French.

    3. Re:no by KeithJM · · Score: 3, Funny

      Actually, you're wrong. I remember as a kid visiting my cousins in England and reading their "Irish Jokes" books. For the Americans, they were the same stupid, unacceptable jokes presented here as Polish jokes. Anyway, they've stopped that now, so you can't get away with it.
      But have you ever heard anyone stand up for the English? How many movies have you seen where the evil genius villain has an English accent? The world must think England is a country of Evil Geniuses and Super Spies. Oh, and drunk effeminate pirates.

    4. Re:no by davolfman · · Score: 2

      The problem is most Americans are bad at judging accents so the South Africans frequently sound English.

    5. Re:no by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      "For the Americans, they were the same stupid, unacceptable jokes presented here as Polish jokes. Anyway, they've stopped that now, so you can't get away with it."

      Where did you get that idea? I take it you've never read the "Truly Tasteless Joke" book series?

      Ethnic jokes are told all the time....it is just that if you have a group of people, they might look over to make sure no one of said ethnicity is around to hear the joke, but, that is the extent of it. Look, all of us have funny attributes and general behaviors. You just can't have too thin a skin, and need to have a sense of humour. And let's face it....these behaviors and traits didn't come out of the blue......many of them are based on real observable things in life.

      Relax a little, and learn to laugh at yourself a little.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    6. Re:no by horatiocain · · Score: 2, Funny

      The Irish have achieved what all other white people have been seeking for centuries: to be white, and still be persecuted.

    7. Re:no by xanadu113 · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is no such thing as "reverse discrimination", only "discrimination."

      We all bleed the same color underneath..

      --
      -Myke
  17. Re:cheers! by cdrguru · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sorry, in today's world there are two sorts of companies: those with IP and a product and those with a product.

    The first sort exist in the US and Europe. The second sort are in China, Singapore, Indonesia, etc. Taiwan and Japan are sort of a mix.

    Once you let the IP out, the second sort of company can easily eliminate the first sort from the market. They can make the product cheaper, faster and more efficiently and they have zero R & D costs. Sure, you can use all sorts of things like patents and copyrights to try to lock down the IP. Unfortunately, none of those apply in a Singapore courtroom. And US Customs really, really doesn't care. They will not block importation of materials based on patents, licensing or anything else like that.

  18. Re:cheers! by ScrewMaster · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If push comes to shove, the binaries could probably be extracted and disassembled. That would be expensive, I suppose, but given that this is a compact embedded system the code probably isn't that complex.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  19. Re:Keep this idiot away from any kind of electrici by Skapare · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's how things are wired in the USA for 240 volt circuits. The transformer secondary is tapped at the midpoint and grounded at that tap. All 3 wires are supplied to the building. 120 volt circuits can be wired between the midpoint neutral and either of the other wires. 240 volt circuits can be wired between the 2 non-neutral wires. While AC is, of course, alternating polarity in time, at any one instant, one of those wires is positive while the other is negative relative to the neutral. So the voltage difference between them will be 240 volts.

    If you insert the two probes into the outlet holes for power, and one of those probes is broken, you can still get a reading that shows the charge potential for just one side. Digital meters pull so little current from the measurement that they actually can read charge potential alone. It could then show as much as 120 volts even for a 240 volt circuit, giving a reading that could appear to make sense since 120 volt circuits are the most common here, while the actual circuit is really 240 volts. A good electrician will cross check his meter to be sure it is not giving a faulty reading.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  20. In NYC The Police Screw You by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In NYC the police using their breathalyzers (might be a different model) could trigger an intoxicated reading just by keying their radios nearby. The needle would jump higher and they could use that to lock you away for hours until a much slower blood test refused to confirm the reading. It is well known that they used this "ability" to harass and lock away people who annoyed them with no justification. There are all kinds of "tricks" that can be played with these machines and the defense is right to be very leery of any "evidence" provided by them.

    And I know Pima county well enough to know not to rely on what their attorneys say as the final word on anything.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  21. Re:cheers! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    To add on to the above post, in Florida, portable breath test unit results (breath tests in the field) are not admissible in court. They can be used for certain administrative violations, but not for criminal charges.

    In order to be administered a breath, blood, and/or urine test, you must already be under arrest in Florida. The officer has already administered field sobriety exercises and determined that the subject is impaired by drugs and/or alcohol. The tests at booking or elsewhere are after the fact. And as the parent said, you can be arrested even if your BAC is below the per se limit. This is because some people can get completely smashed on a drink or two, some people drive with drugs (legal or illegal) in their system which impair their ability to drive, and some like to mix and match.

    I suppose that this really does not have much to do with the device's source code, but I just wanted to point out that in Florida mindless drones are not using this machine alone to determine if someone is drunk. It is a little more complicated than that.

  22. "Not a trade secret" by l2718 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While I agree that government should not use "expert testimony" that can't be reproduced, I don't buy the following logic (from the story, haven't read the opinion yet):

    [the] Judge ... ruled that the source code is not a trade secret. ... the president of ... the company that manufactures the machine, testified that the [machine] is not patented, and neither is its copyright on the source code [sic].

    So: if it's not patented and not under copyright then it's not a trade secret? Usually a company gets a choice: copyright/patent (publish but get protection) or trade secret (can't publish). No patent or copyright holds in favour of trade secret protection.

    The real ruling should be that while the company should be free to keep the workings of their device secret, the government should not be allowed to rely on evidence produced via devices whose inner workings are secret.

  23. Re:cheers! by sheepofblue · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That is fine. IF the driver was driving in an erratic manner they are unsafe. However ANY driver should be able to face their accuser and if the accuser is an electronic device they shouldn't have to tolerate "poof then magic occurs" This is to protect the innocent from an abusive state. Most cops are honest great people but anyone that does not think there is rogue and corrupt governments is gullible.

  24. Re:cheers! by pilsner.urquell · · Score: 2, Informative

    Then there needs to be a way to prove that the source code provided matches the binary code being executed.

    When the source code is compiled in the exact same manner that the binary the hash value should be the same for the compiled code as the binary used in the machine. Hash Function

  25. Overdue ruling of common sense by Mad-cat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I work in the State of Florida as a police officer, and I arrest and charge people with DUI on a regular basis.

    In my opinion, this ruling was exactly on the money, and far too long in coming. If a company refuses to disclose evidence, the State should immediately stop using their product to obtain evidence.

    As a certified expert witness, I am able to testify to the impairment of a subject without the need of a breath analysis to verify. About 20-30% of the cases I testify in have no breath results because the defendant refuses to provide a breath sample. We only forcefully obtain samples (of blood, not breath) when a traffic homicide is involved.

    If the evidence is faulty, I *need* to know. I can only uphold my oath of office if I can testify in good faith that I am using proper methods of obtaining evidence. If this company is witholding vital information, they should not be allowed to sell their product to law enforcement.

  26. Star Trek by seeker_1us · · Score: 2, Interesting
    There was a classic episode of Star Trek, where Captain Kirk was going to be prosecuted for murder. The chief witness against him was computer logs, and that was awful because computers couldn't be wrong.

    His lawyers defense was that every man had the right to face his accuser, and that included the computers.

    Captain Kirk was innocent. The computer records were falsified.

    The DUI makers should watch this episode.

  27. Screw the source code... how is it tested? by Fished · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Okay... I truly appreciate the desire to get access to source code for this sort of device. However, if I were on a jury, I would be much less interested in seeing the source code (or hearing testimony from an expert who had) and much more interested in hearing testimony on the testing process for the particular binary image installed on the device in question.

    The bottom line is that, particularly in an embedded device working with sensors, many problems will simply not be apparent from the source code, no matter how good you are. The only way to know that this device gives good data is to give it the same sort of rigorous testing we give (for example) new drugs and electronics that go into airplanes and military hardware.

    I would want to see this device subjected to adverse environments, radio interference, being operated on the side of the road, etc. etc., and still reliably producing results that closely correlated with those produced by reference tests (i.e. blood alcohol tests). If this sort of testing is done for each and every revision of the device's firmware then the company is right, source code is irrelevant. This isn't like a voting machine... it has a discrete, limited number of inputs, no operating system, and a small memory pool--the only way to tamper with it would be to alter the firmware, and that can be checked with a simple checksum. And if this sort of testing isn't being done, then these devices are worthless and shouldn't be used to send someone to jail, because anyone who knows anything about programming knows that any project of any complexity will have bugs, and this sort of testing is the only way to catch them.

    So... does anyone know how these devices are tested? How rigorous is the testing? Is it serious, covering all conditions, and all revisions no matter how minor, or is it the usual "get the bad guys, screw civil liberties" sort of half-assed stuff that we've come to expect from American law enforcement?

    I have no sympathy for drunk drivers... but I don't want anyone sent to jail on evidence that even MIGHT be false.

    --
    "He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1