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Ford's 65MPG Due In November, But Not In the US

computermesh writes "Ford has a vehicle that gets 65MPG and will not be released in the US. Why? Because they can not afford to! 'Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.'"

36 of 1,103 comments (clear)

  1. Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by Joce640k · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Biodiesel is about the only fuel which really can be produced from crops/tanks of sludge.

    The USA should be encouraging diesel engines for all it's worth, not making things difficult.

    --
    No sig today...
    1. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by rtechie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Biodiesel is about the only fuel which really can be produced from crops/tanks of sludge.

      Without getting into the details, diesel itself has advantages and disadvantages but biodiesel is snake oil. There is not enough cast-off high-energy crops/sludge to cover any significant usage and purpose-made biodiesel is made at a net loss. Just like ethanol, it's a nice idea that has no chance of working. Even worse, ethanol has the evil corn lobby behind it.

    2. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by IronMagnus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Assume a 10 gallon tank

      at $4 a gallon, 30mpg in a gas engine gives you 300 miles for $40.

      at $5 a gallon, 65mpg in a diesel gives you 650 miles for $50.

      Who cares if it costs more per gallon if the increase in mileage more than offsets the increase in cost?

    3. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by Bent+Mind · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Thank you.

      I've seen car commercials talk about how their car is environmentally safe because it uses diesel. I've always thought, WTF? It must be some scam. All too often, I've found myself behind a diesel that was belching out so much smoke that you couldn't see around it. I'd have to roll up all the windows and hold my breath until I was able to pass it.

      Now I see that it's simply a poorly designed vehicle combined with a poorly refined fuel. That the newest diesels don't have this problem if you can find clean diesel. Now if only diesel wasn't the most expensive price at the pump. I suppose they have to pay for the new refining techniques.

      I remember reading once that diesel engines were most efficient when run at their top RPM. Are there any vehicles that take advantage of this, by combining a diesel engine, generator, and electric motor? I believe that's how diesel locomotives work.

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    4. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by superdave80 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ...fixed consumption hill climb...

      Translation: You slow down on hills.
      Result: You impede traffic and cause more fuel to be consumed because you have now caused a traffic jam and everyone is now in stop-and-go traffic.

      I live in the San Francisco bay area, and nearly every highway that has even a small incline gets backed up because people don't know how to keep a steady speed while climbing a hill. Now, maybe you don't do this in high-congestion areas, which is OK. But for the love of God, DO NOT do this in high traffic areas.

    5. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by zakezuke · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Across 400 miles, if gas is $3.00 and diesel is $4.00, then I'm ahead by $8. If gas is $4.00 and diesel is $5, then I'm ahead $13.33

      Unfortunately too many uneducated Americans don't do the math, they just see one price. Most of my fellow Americans also think that paying $250/month for 72 months is better than paying $350/month for 48 months for the same car.

      I discovered during the gulf war that in my car, a 76 corolla, if I bought Texaco premium I would get 40mpg vs 30mpg on regular. I was ahead paying more for gas, with no investment requires.

      Let's say you can save your self $10/week on diesel. That works out to be $521/year. In 10 years that's $5210. That's a good thing.

      But a Jetta TDI new will run you about $20,000. A 2009 corolla will run you about $15,000 or so, and there are a couple of options under $15k like the Nissan Versa, Mazda 3i, and the new Smart Fortwo.

      I hate to say it, but going with the budget import that gets about 40mpg highway, not including maintenance, is pretty much on par with the VW TDI solution provided you drive enough to make back your investment in 10 years. If you are not burning close to a tank per week, well, it'll certainly take you longer to make back your investment.

      While I do like TDI, it's a premium that'll cost you about $5000 more.

      --
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    6. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by Buran · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, this does not cause a traffic jam. Gently slowing and accelerating as required by terrain and traffic uses less fuel than sharp braking and accelerating. I have never had a problem with gently slowing up a hill, and gently applying the throttle as required while climbing, but mileage decreases dramatically by using "standard" techniques (as in me-first-driver techniques).

      Gently climbing hills without flooring it and therefore using too much fuel doesn't automatically mean "driving below the limit" or any such thing. It simply means good technique. If traffic jams up, it's because people are following too closely (the two-second rule: are you obeying it?) or failing to otherwise ensure that there is sufficient space around them to 'take up' the variation in speed of vehicles ahead (and there will always be a variation to some extent; again, use the two-second rule, at LEAST).

      Stop blaming other motorists and fix your driving habits so that you don't HAVE to slam on your brakes (and cause, or be a part of, a cause-and-effect wave behind you).

    7. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by hb253 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you find yourself being passed on the right, you should move over to the right.

      --
      Self awareness - try it!
    8. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by mcmonkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Seriously, why do people seem to get off on being as much of a danger as possible to others on the road?

      I don't know. Tell us.

      For most roads in the USA, the right lane is the travel lane and the left lane is the passing lane. If you're getting passed on the right enough to complain about, maybe you should get out of the passing lane.

      Some hypermiling techniques, such as rolling through stop signs, are just as illegal and dangerous as speeding.

      ..and in fact said idiot came an inch from my rear bumper, high-beamed (and blinded me, since he was in an SUV at night) and then swerved around me and back in front of me an inch from my FRONT bumper -- enjoy MY high beams, jackass...

      So the other guy is an ass for being in such a hurry, and you're an ass for being self-righteous about your driving habits. Do you see my point?

    9. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by skam240 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      While I think it's funny that your example drives the same vehicle I would use for almost every idiot driver I've encountered (that's right, most of you drive SUVs), I have to reject your notion that those who get frustrated by people hypermiling are crazies. While of course there are always those people out there who will drive recklessly and at insane speeds, most ordinary people get upset with hypermilers because they get in their way. If you have ever been stuck behind a person who is walking way too slow for your own comfort level then you know exactly what I am talking about.

      Plus, if you are being passed on the right you are driving too slow. If you were driving in any civilized country besides the US you would have people flashing and honking at you. Unfortunately, this is considered "rude" in the US so those that hold others up in the passing lane often times feel justified driving there despite their inconveinencing everyone else on the road.

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    10. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by hb253 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Everybody knows that speed zones (i.e. traps) are designed for revenue enhancement, not safety.

      --
      Self awareness - try it!
    11. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      "I also don't understand why people who merely obey the law are seen as something to brush aside. "

      I don't mind...just please stay in the right lane and let me by...I prefer to at least stay up to speed with the flow of traffic around me, and 99% of the time..that is above the limit...especially on the highways.

      I just guess no one is taught anymore that the left lane(s) are for passing, and if you're going slower than traffic around you, pull to the right and let them by.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    12. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by EXrider · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, that is not the fact you're wrong. First of all, your Mazdaspeed3 has a 2.3L engine. The VW TDI's in cars here in the US are mostly either 1.9L or 2.0L. That is not equivalent to the TDI you're comparing it to above.

      Do you think it is by mere coincidence that almost every piece of heavy machinery is powered by a diesel engine as opposed to a gas engine? Quite simply, diesel engines make more usable torque.

      What follows is a broad generalization. Look at the dyno charts for a turbodiesel engine, and you'll notice they have a fat torque curve almost immediately off of idle all the way up until about a grand short of redline. Gas engines on the other hand build their peak torque up slowly until right before redline. Translation? The gas engine wastes more time and energy downshifting to keep you inside of that torque curve.

      The VW diesels we have here in the US are a poor example anyways because they're designed with emissions and economy as the top priority, not performance. In Europe there are a wide variety of VW TDI options to chose from, for example: a 2.0L 4-cyl Common Rail diesel that pounds out 197HP/295lb-ft at 1,800 RPMs stock. By the way, It's not uncommon for someone to merely change the ECU firmware on a completely otherwise stock TDI, to bust out an additional 30HP/75lb-ft while still managing 45+ MPG. You can go even farther if you're willing to upgrade the clutch and other driveline components.

      P.S. Let us know when your turbocharged Mazdaspeed3 hits 300,000 miles with only routine maintenance and no major engine work. There are some diesels that have logged over a million miles!

      --
      grep -iw skynet /etc/services
    13. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by MrResistor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't speed (or if I do, it is not deliberate and I slow back down to the limit) and I am passed left and right (and passing on the right is not legal) and I've seen people scream on discussion forums at anyone who dares to obey the law, as if obeying the law is something to sneer at (it's not; the rules exist for a damn good reason and no one is above it).

      I don't know where you live, but in California the law says you must move over to the right to allow faster traffic to pass you on the left. It is not your job, nor do you have the authority, to enforce the speed limit by clogging up the fast lane.

      do try not to break your leg climbing down off your high horse.

      --
      Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
    14. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by himi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Engine braking saves fuel for a couple of reasons: firstly, coasting (particularly in a modern electronic fuel injected car) will consume minimal fuel - at worst idle fuel consumption, or zero in an EFI engine (the engine is turned over by the wheels, so why bother injecting anything?).

      That applies when you're simply braking, too, though - the thing that really causes engine braking to save fuel compared to normal braking is that it's a lot gentler. You lose speed slower, which means you'll start slowing down sooner, which lowers your average speed and fuel consumption. Also, gentler braking will tend to smooth out traffic flow, particularly if you're allowing plenty of following distance, which means that you may not need to slow down as much, and the people behind you may not need to slow down as much.

      Engine braking isn't really a fuel saving technique, though - for the most part it's just a good driving technique.

      himi

      --

      My very own DeCSS mirror.
    15. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by Toonol · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The irrational anger driving at the speed limit generates is really interesting. If people not breaking the law causes intense frustration and feeling of anger in you, something is wrong in you.

      I generally cruise about 3-5 mph over the limit, and I generally stay in the right lane, because that makes for smoother traffic. But if, for whatever reason, an idiot gets perturbed because they are stuck behind me for two minutes, and end up being delayed by 5 mph x 120 seconds (slowing their arrival at their destination by about 8 seconds), I don't feel bad at all. It's an opportunity for them to grow, emotionally :)

    16. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by MrResistor · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What does it matter where I live?

      It matters because traffic laws are not uniform. I know a fair amount about traffic laws in California because my ex-wife is a Highway Patrol Officer, but the the laws where you live may be different.

      I've already explained that being where I am is necessary for what I am doing at the time I am doing it. Yes, I do normally drive in the right lane. If I am not there, I have good reason, and that does not change the fact that passing on the right is illegal.

      Nor does it change the fact that you are required by law to move over to the right to allow faster traffic to pass you on the left. Quite the conundrum, isn't it?

      If you think the situation justifies your ignoring one law, it's awfully hypocritical of you to get your panties in a bunch over other people using the same situation to justify ignoring another law that makes equally little sense in that situation. I'll assume you're talking about situations such as when a freeway splits into two or more separate freeways. Can you definitively say whether you are in the slow lane of the one going to the left or the fast lane of the one going to the right?

      I also already explained that I obey all applicable rules of the road

      Well then I must call you a liar. The California Vehicle Code is a pretty hefty book, well over 1000 pages of dense legalese, as I recall. Do you honestly expect me to believe that you know, let alone understand and follow, every single rule in that book that applies to you at any given time?

      all this snark is totally unwarranted and I do not know what grounds are being used to vilify me even after repeated statements of these facts.

      I can't speak for anyone else, but any snark in my replies has been in response to your self-righteous attitude and absolutist view of the law (except in cases where it would be inconvenient for you, but of course it's totally unacceptable for anyone else to do that).

      I ask you, where were you when these things happened that permit you to be able to make judgments? How do you know which car is mine? Describe it, give the time, date, and place and state what you saw.

      I don't know, and I don't care. I wasn't responding to any specific incident you described, but rather to general patterns of behavior.

      --
      Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
    17. Re:Does that mean it can run on BIOdiesel? by hab136 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But a Jetta TDI new will run you about $20,000. A 2009 corolla will run you about $15,000 or so, and there are a couple of options under $15k like the Nissan Versa, Mazda 3i, and the new Smart Fortwo.

      Yes, Jettas are $5k more than Corollas new - that's not due to diesel vs gas.

      A better comparison would be the Jetta TDI vs Jetta gas. kbb.com prices the TDI at $21,393 invoice and the gas version at $18,445 invoice, a $2,948 difference. There is a $1,300 tax credit for clean diesel (check vw's homepage, filter ate my url)

      So the real difference is $1,645 more for diesel. At $521/year, that's a 3 year payback at current prices. If prices rise, it would be faster.

  2. Truth by Renraku · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They're correct in that there are business reasons.

    For example, they don't want the bottom to fall out of the market of their other cars, because they know that this would be their top #1 seller, and most of their other cars would become a lot less popular.

    Also, there's probably some kind of collusion going on. We could make a 45mpg car that has decent numbers back in the 80's, but we can't make anything comparable now? Bullshit. There's something behind the scenes.

    --
    Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
    1. Re:Truth by Flavio · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I will give you one hint - it costs about 30$ to pull a barrel of oil out of the ground, at the most (think oil sands in Ontario).

      This answer would only make sense if Ford sold oil instead of cars.

    2. Re:Truth by the_humeister · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They're correct in that there are business reasons. For example, they don't want the bottom to fall out of the market of their other cars, because they know that this would be their top #1 seller, and most of their other cars would become a lot less popular.

      The article states that the engines are made in Britain and would be costly to import. Making the engines in the Americas may not have a good enough ROI since they'd need to make a new factory when they currently don't have the resources to do it right now (losing billions during the fiscal year probably doesn't help).

      Also, there's probably some kind of collusion going on. We could make a 45mpg car that has decent numbers back in the 80's, but we can't make anything comparable now? Bullshit. There's something behind the scenes.

      Yes there are: tighter emission standards, higher safety requirements, America's penchant for higher performing engines. There's really no incentive for us here the USA to buy more fuel efficient vehicles. Over in Europe they have 2 things that drive the sales of smaller cars: 1) much higher fuel prices and, 2) more taxes to pay on larger engines.

    3. Re:Truth by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ok. My 1998 can get 50 MPG. My friends 2003 can get 50 MPG. VW (and the rest of the germans) have made 50 MPG cars for ages and all that meet safety regulations.

      Oh, the other "problem" is that it is manual transmission. Slushboxes suck up fuel economy like most people don't even believe.

      As someone else pointed out if California wasn't so anal about the NOx more diesels could be let in. Most of the NOx is the 'good' kind (NO2 or NO3, I forget) and not the 'bad' kind. But somehow a 8 MPG hummer is Ok.

      I once heard an argument between two people the other day about the "new" V6 some company released that only has 245 HP while some other company's V6 can get 255 HP. I drive a 90 HP turbodiesel. It tops out at around 125 MPH. Most on ramps are long enough to get me up to 80-90 MPH. We have some huge hills around here and it's one of the only I4s I've been in that can accelerate you up the hill (torque rocks).

      Diesel is much quieter on the road. Where gassers are turning 3000+ rpm I'm around 2000, and at peak torque, no downshifting.

      And on the subject of "safety regulations" I've heard countless people talk about buying or riding their motorcycles more in the name of 'fuel economy.' How safe are those things? Most people don't understand there can be a middle ground between an awesome MPG motorcycle and a tank of an SUV? Personally I'd take something 100x safer than a motorcycle that got me 50 MPG even if it was only slightly less safe than an SUV.

      Simply put. Most of my American brethren are absolute idiots.

    4. Re:Truth by Michael+Wardle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hmm... NOx versus CO2.
      http://www.epa.gov/air/urbanair/nox/hlth.html

      NOx causes smog, acid rain, breathing problems, and may contribute to global warming.

      CO2 may contribute to global warming.

      It would obviously depend on the quantities, but I can understand why you'd want to limit NOxs.

    5. Re:Truth by BlackSnake112 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So your the one who can't keep a constant speed on the highway. You pass many people at 70 then slow down causing a backup then go fast again...

      Your pulse and glide thing is OK if you are the only one on the road. It falls apart in rush hour traffic when they are hundreds (if not more) of other people on the road all not doing the same thing. I am not saying we need to have pulse zones and glide zones on the highways. That would lead to a lot more traffic accidents.

  3. And this is why Ford and Chevy are... by linzeal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ..going to be owned by the Chinese within 20 years. No one doubts how revolutionary both companies efforts are in creating viable electric and hybrid cars, in the mean time they are being laughed at by anyone who has gone car shopping in the last few months with all the sales. Even with some models being 5-10k cheaper from the American manufacturers 90% of the time you can get a Japanese model that gets 20% better gas mileage, higher resale value and better crash rating. Who still buys American vehicles these days, my grandparents got a Toyota last year and my sister has a 10 year old Chevy pickup. Everyone else I know owns German or Japanese vehicles.

  4. And this is why Ford is going bankrupt by bogjobber · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They are not willing to take any chances, even when their backs are up against the wall. They were completely dependent on gas guzzling behemoths like the F150 and their various SUV's. Yet when the opportunity comes up to do something unique and become a market leader, they are too risk averse to do it.

    They could import these cars, selling them in relatively small quantities for a small profit, and then later do things to bring the costs down. Move the engine manufacturing to the US/Mexico. Use that famous lobbying ability that kept SUV's viable to reduce diesel taxes.

    The Japanese companies didn't become as successful as they are overnight. Ford will not be able to compete with them until they take a long-term approach. Instead of burning through cash trying to maintain their current business model, how about investing that in new facilities that will create the next generation of cars. Focusing only on quarterly reports is what got them into this mess in the first place.

  5. Re:That's your excuse?? by the_humeister · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The truck market and car market tend to have different buyers.

  6. The reason is 30 years old by damn_registrars · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.

    Some people may remember that in the 70s and 80s, the big three were making several diesel-powered sedans for the American market. Some of these vehicles are still operating, because the diesel engines have very good longevity.

    However, it is the negative publicity that those old diesels attained that keeps diesel relegated so low in the US. Those cars in the 70s and 80s made terrible mileage (they were most if not all 8cyl diesels). They spewed noxious exhaust enough to make coal power plants look clean. And they accelerated like Mack trucks propelled by hamsters.

    Unfortunately, many people aren't aware of the progress that diesel engines have made in the past 30 years. And it would seem some of those uninformed people are working for the big 3 automakers.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  7. Re:Bull fucking shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And where do you intend to get the energy to split the hydrogen atoms from the oxygen?

  8. Re:probably the UAW by plopez · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Check this out:

    http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_20060621

    CEO's make 262 times what a worker makes, up from 24 times in 1966. Where's the money going? Not into plant and equipment. Check this guy out:
    http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/05/news/companies/ford_execpay/

    I wish I could make that sort of money for destroying a company.

    Why shouldn't the workers get a piece of the pie too? After all, isn't that the American dream?

    BTW, who decides what cars to build? Who decides how to market them? Who decided to stick with SUVs for far too long? Who decided to kill the electric car? Who fought off increasing CAFE standards? Management.

    I'm not saying Unions were innocent little angels, but blaming them for everything is wrong. Personally I feel that far too long we have a had a confrontational relationship between management and labor. They both need to realize they need each other and that they both have the same goal: to make money.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
  9. It's not the diesel it's consumer usage by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 3, Insightful

    (caveat - I own Ford shares which I bought at the bottom)

    It's not that it uses diesel, it's that US consumers pay too much for diesel, and have yet to realize that you get more distance on a gallon of diesel than you do on a gallon of gasoline.

    The major markets that care about fuel economy, to date, have been the ones with tighter pollution controls, and hence diesel is at a disadvantage, due to emission restrictions on all but "experimental" cars.

    But, if you read the WSJ and Fortune, you'd realize it will be released in the US once the US dollar recovers enough - no sense selling a high-demand vehicle in the US when you can make more profit selling it in the EU instead, where tax policy advantages diesel over gasoline.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  10. Re:Speed Humps by Sj0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So drive better.

    90% of accidents are caused by sloppy driving; Not controlling your road space, acting unpredictably, not being in control of your vehicle.

    I've found that even in cities, it's not impossible to control your road space, and accidents which do happen will be the non-violent sort; minor scrapes in parking lots, during lane changes, and at stop-lights.

    --
    It's been a long time.
  11. Better for taxes than for rich-snot profits by zooblethorpe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm just sayin'...

    Cheers,

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  12. Re:speeding by Brickwall · · Score: 4, Insightful
    If you don't like it, the right way to do something about it is to get the highway department to resurvey the road and if the limit is improper it will be changed.

    You're kidding, right? The double-nickel was brought in during the Carter administration, strictly to save gas. The speed limit here in Canada used to be 70 mph, and that was in cars with just lap belts, no anti-lock brakes, no crumple zones, and no airbags. Traffic engineers have long recommended higher limits; when Montana had its "reasonable and prudent" speed limit, traffic fatalities actually fell. I used to drive from Toronto to Detroit every weekend; that's about 400 km. If, as the traffic engineers recommend, the speed limit outside of urban areas was raised to 130 km/hr, that would have saved me an entire hour. Speed is only a major death factor in young, male, inexperienced drivers; for older drivers fatigue was most often cited. If I could make the trip in 3 hours instead of 4, I would obviously be less fatigued. But our gutless politicians won't make the change because the green lobby would go ballistic.

    --
    What was once true, is no longer so
  13. Auto Analyst is wrong by TheLongshot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Americans see hybrids as the darling," says Global Insight auto analyst Philip Gott, "and diesel as old-tech."

    Replace "Americans" with "American auto companies" and they will get it right. VW just rereleased the Jetta TDI in limited quantities and it is selling like hotcakes.

  14. No, no, no, no, no, a thousand times no. by Zaphod-AVA · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you are not *actively passing someone* you should move over to the right.

    It isn't the fast lane, it's the passing lane.