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Peru To Be First To Put Windows On OLPC Laptop

Posted by kdawson on from the must-be-that-high-mountain-air dept.

Da Massive writes "The government of Peru will run the first ever trial of the One Laptop Per Child association's XO laptop running Windows XP. This puts the nation at the heart of a software controversy that has been raging for years between those who advocate making software and its source code free, such as Linux OS developers, and those who charge for software and keep the development recipes secret, such as Microsoft."

69 of 292 comments (clear)

  1. Negroponte by DrSkwid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    He's always got my goat, I wish he'd give it back. I used to read his breathless commentary in Wired in the 90s, visionary - pah, up his own arse.

    --
    There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
  2. The Goal? by KGIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

    At least there is technology getting into the hands of children who can use it to further their education. Before we whine about it running on proprietary software let's also keep in mind that it gives them access greater than what they had, interoperability they may never have had, and there are plenty of open source projects that they can use if they want to.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    1. Re:The Goal? by seeker_1us · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Access greater than what they had? To what? Access to Microsoft Software? How does that help learning?

      Interoperability greater than what they had? Interoperability to what? MS Office and other MS software which is notorious for not being interoperable?

      This computer was supposed to be a learning tool for children. To teach critical thinking. Not to be a platform for Office.

      How does turning it into an XP box help? XP is just essentially a vending machine.

    2. Re:The Goal? by PinkyDead · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That is about as close as you could get to a modern equivalent to the justifications for imperialism and colonialism of the 18th and 19th centuries. Unfortunately, it's the same poor suckers that are getting victimised again.

      --
      Genesis 1:32 And God typed :wq!
    3. Re:The Goal? by noundi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Let's also keep in mind that fewer children get these laptops now due to license fees, and who will make profit out of this? Peru? The children of Peru? The guys behind OLPC?

      No--but this guy will.

      --
      I am the lawn!
    4. Re:The Goal? by KGIII · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I will respond because I didn't make my initial statement without thinking. Greater than what they had - meaning more than. Before this they had nothing available probably. This is not less than nothing.

      Interoperability - as much as it pains you to acknowledge it, most of the world still runs Windows. In some places it still requires Windows. Until that changes my statement remains true.

      This computer can still be a learning tool for children. This tool can still teach critical thinking. One does NOT need to be using an open source platform to engage in critical thinking. Not to mention that Office most surely won't run on something of this nature but that only belies your unwillingness to accept anything other than a purist mentality or agreement of your opinions regardless of the reality.

      How does it help? It helps in that the tools are being put into the hands of children. It helps in that these kids are able to do the important things like search for more information on a subject that interests them, to reach informed choices about the topics that matter to them, and to better enable them to prepare for a future that might actually get them out of the slums and into an acceptable level of living.

      You do NOT need F/OSS for that. You don't NEED the best of breed to drive a car. You can do just fine in getting from Point A to Point B in a beat to shit old Honda.

      What about CHOICE? These people OPTED to use Windows. We can argue that their children didn't opt to but do you really think that they care? No. I don't. The few that will care, later on down the road, will make those choices as well. Until then they have email, browsers that go to wikipedia, search engines to learn more about the world around them, and so much more. For that I am happy, for that I am grateful, and to be honest I don't give a shit if it runs Windows, Linux, RiscOS, or garbledygook! So long as the job is done and that job is getting this coming generation into the information age. The ends justify the means.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    5. Re:The Goal? by ozphx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Excellent point. Any kid that is at all interested in hacking it is going to dual boot. Its not like every kid in Peru would otherwise suddenly going to pick up the code and start hacking it.

      --
      3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
    6. Re:The Goal? by KGIII · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We all probably started out on a closed source operating system... Why can't they? Why do we expect the results to be different? *sighs* People just flipped and modded my first post without actually thinking and maybe now I can post more often. ;)

      Get the tools out there into the hands of the children via whatever means nessesary. Let them work on it and learn. If they want to hack the code, trust me (look at us for example), they will.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    7. Re:The Goal? by WillKemp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's true, to a certain extent. But OLPCs running Linux would achieve the same end for less money. And chances are that Windows won't run as well as the version of Linux that this machine was designed to run.

      And can poor people really afford to be sucked into the expensive world of Microsoft?

    8. Re:The Goal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What about CHOICE? These people OPTED to use Windows. We can argue that their children didn't opt to but do you really think that they care? No. I don't. The few that will care, later on down the road, will make those choices as well.

      No their GOVERNMENT opted for Windows. Given the history of corruption in many S-American countries I don't think that the question of whether Linux, RiscOS or Garbledygook OS would have done as good a job as Windows OS ever was ever even asked and if it was the question was quickly forgotten as soon as MS got through greasing the 'right people'.

    9. Re:The Goal? by jeremyp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When was the last time you touched Windows? I only ask because you seem to be labouring under a misapprehension. There is no mechanism in Windows that stops you running software that was not written by Microsoft. Just because I have Windows, does not mean I have to run MS Office. I could choose any one of a number of Office packages including Open Source ones.

      Windows as a desktop platform is just as interoperable as any other desktop operating system, in fact more so because it will interoperate with Microsoft's proprietary stuff as well as all of the open standards.

      You're keen on teaching children critical thinking, but you're happy to tell lies about an operating system you don't like. That's not setting them a good example is it?

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    10. Re:The Goal? by KGIII · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Given that this was chosen by Peru for Peruvian children I'm sticking with yeah, it is better than nothing. I honestly don't care what it runs - but I defend Peru's freedom to select their operating system that they want to use for their children. You're talking to someone who makes the vast majority of their living from Linux. (Click my homepage link.) Your talking to someone who's contributed financially and code-wise to OSS for years. You're also talking to someone who actually manages to use Windows in the home because that does what he wants it to do how he wants it to do it.

      There is no winning OS. There is no right or wrong when you compare proprietary vs. open source when the chips are down. What matters is that the job is done, done well enough, and that the people are getting what they want done how they want to do it.

      My posts are clearly defending getting these tools into the hands of children regardless of what they run. For someone who is boosting the idea of Linux as a choice you seem to neglect the idea that other people make choices other than your own. They selected Windows. For better or worse, that's their choice. For someone who seemingly advocates freedom you don't seem to want to allow others the freedom to make their own choices.

      You know what? Linux *does* offer searching, email, and educational software. Guess what? So does Windows. So does Amiga. So does RiscOS. So does FreeBSD. So does Mac. The small percentage of children who would understand and desire to alter their software at the OS level can and will find a means to do so regardless of the OS. That's what enabling them with a search engine, wikipedia, slashdot, and email will give them REGARDLESS of the operating system.

      I know, for a fact, that if you drive an automobile and are not a mechanic you don't even begin to comprehend everything that goes on to get your automobile in motion. You probably understand the physics of a combustion engine but you sure as hell can't adjust the timing, change out the O2 sensors or calibrate them, and surely don't know what the OBDCII is doing to get the readings. Joe Six Pack Peruvian Style hasn't got to know those things to drive from one place to another to learn more and advance their knowledge. To think that they do is asinine, ignorant, and counter productive. If he wants to be a mechanic he can take his learn and to think that if he chooses he can't out a different OS on their instead of XP is just plain ignorant beyond all compare.

      And yes, yes I did donate to OLPC - twice. If they put a GPS locater in there I'd buy one for myself in a heartbeat just to have one that didn't go to my children so that daddy had a new toy. STFU or put up. Start your own project if you want but to belittle the people putting technology in the hands of those who need it most because of your misguided sense of right and wrong shows how much of a cretin you are. You're probably the type of person who would tell a starving child* that they can't eat at McDonalds because you don't agree with their capitalistic ideals or because you feel that you have a moral right to tell them that they can't eat meat. There is such a thing as morals and ethics but when those actually hinder people instead of enabling them (however slight) you should stop imposing them.

      *By starving I mean really starving to the point of exhaustion and near death not your likely misinterpretation of being hungry 'cause you haven't had a fucking pastry in the past 3 hours.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    11. Re:The Goal? by PinkyDead · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The goal is to give these kids a chance.

      Who's goal? Because it certainly isn't Microsoft's. They want as much lock-in as they can get and they don't care how they get it. All large corporations want the same thing because they are driven by the demands of their shareholders for profit - and rightly so.

      But the OLPC project wasn't started to enhance the balance sheet of Microsoft - yet it affects its credibility and its effectiveness for Microsoft to use it as a marketing tool and at the same time harms the chances of other projects that will find it harder to garner non-profit support when it is clear that at the point of success some profit-junky will just rush in to exploit it. That is the main reason why open source should be used - because it shares the vision that created the OLPC in the first place.

      --
      Genesis 1:32 And God typed :wq!
    12. Re:The Goal? by KGIII · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That is the only arguement that makes sense. Rather than the closed source vs. open source that one makes sense. In this case I have to say that there's enough freeware to make this work and given the publicity this is bound to be something that Microsoft does at little or no cost. (They do that you know... They do it to encourage adopting their platform of course but a business choice is not always a choice without ethics.)

      As I responded to another poster... This is not ideal. Ideal is not something we often get in the real world. It is better than nothing in my opinion but that's just my opinion. I'd be more worried about the initial impact - how many children do not get a laptop because of the added cost? A small percentage will have a desire to get into the OS code but, to me, that's acceptable. The matter of initial cost is probably not as high as we're thinking at this scope.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    13. Re:The Goal? by KGIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't understand the why people automatically assume that there is bribery involved especially in a matter that is as open as this one. Could that have happened? Sure. Did it? Not to the best of my knowledge and I'm guessing you don't have any evidence to support your views either other than a perception which is nothing more than a preconceived notion.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    14. Re:The Goal? by wodelltech · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I tried to send my original G1G1 OLPC to a Kenyan orphanage. The first thing they asked me was if they could use it to manage their financial spreadsheet - they specifically wanted Excel. They also had data access via cell phone, but the WIFI was of no interest. The Windows laptop they had fit the bill just right.

      --
      Your monitor is staring at you.
    15. Re:The Goal? by Trelane · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is no mechanism in Windows that stops you running software that was not written by Microsoft.

      Is this where I point out the DR-DOS thing? Yes, I think so.

      --

      --
      Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
    16. Re:The Goal? by KGIII · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think you're trolling but I'll feed you regardless.

      They're not buying an OS only. They're getting a functional computer. Scaled down or not, it functions. It does what they need it to do. They'll be able to run all sorts of programs as I understand it. What makes you think that educational software only comes in the pay-for environment? Have you not seen the freeware (including open source) applications that run just fine in Windows? The price you mention is already paid for, the BSA is only involved if there's a reason to suspect piracy and, frankly, the BSA is pretty much full of evil fucktards regardless of the OS you're using. Your last statement shows your prejudice and without evidence to support it it is just silly. I can't think of a time when Microsoft has ever charged me for an add-on, update, or the likes.

      If, by means of zealotry, you want to go take these laptops from the hands of children then you have all the permissions in the world so long as you accept the consequences. Me? I'm just glad they have something more than what they had. If you want to take away the freedom of choice because those choices don't meet your idealogical conceptions then by all means, I suggest you run to Peru and start taking them from the hands of the children. While you are there you might as well hunt for a homeless child who's about to dumpster dive and get themselves a hamburger and take that from them too because you feel that eating meat is morally wrong. Go on, go punch one in the face and explain that eating from McDonald's is unacceptable because you've seen the documentary and you have your opinions on the subject.

      Lest you argue and say it isn't so basic as the food or you're not a vegetarian I suggest you scroll up and look at what you have typed. Again, I did not make those statements without thinking long and hard about them and even overcoming some inner turmoil. The ends justify the means if even a small percentage of people are given a higher standard of living or a greater awareness of the world around them that they would not have had otherwise. The operating system, in this case, is unimportant. I don't CARE what brand of drug saves my life. I care if it works. This works.

      I made those statements knowing I'd get piles of mods saying I was trolling. I made them with every bit of information I had (I've followed this and carefully thought about the benefits and the negatives for the entire time and, before you ask, I'm a double dipper in the BOGO so that each of my kids could have one) and I stand by them. As much as I love and sometimes even advocate the premise that open is better the reality is that this is better than nothing and that they made the choice to use Windows. I am fine with that, I make the choice to use Windows every day. Click my homepage link and you'll see that I actually make my living from Linux, for example, so don't think that this isn't something I haven't thought about.

      Am I defending the use of Microsoft products on the OLPC units? Yes. Yes I am. Not because it is Microsoft but because of the potential benefits for those who receive the units. They can accomplish all that they want to on the laptop regardless of the OS that came initially installed.

      The ONLY reason I can see that is justified is the cost. The price does increase I'd assume. (I don't have the numbers and I'm not an econ/biz major/grad.) Those are small enough even at 1:10 that it is still justifiable to me. If only one child got a laptop that would be better than nothing regardless of the OS it ran.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    17. Re:The Goal? by Bert64 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Only if they are made aware of the possibilities. Windows actively discourages learning about the underlying system, and is designed to convince users that doing so is dangerous and should be avoided...

      The purpose is to encourage learning, not to create a dependency on proprietary software.

      One will result in increased costs of entry into the market for these countries, as all their potential workers will only know proprietary software and insist on it, making it more expensive to get going and flowing money out of the country.

      The other will result in a local industry where software is produced and supported locally, with money remaining in the local economy and jobs being created.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    18. Re:The Goal? by tcr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Personally, I wasn't thinking in terms of getting into the OS code...
       
      How about having a huge repository of great software at their disposal for $0?
       
      Assuming they want to do something more than MS Office, their choices will often be to rely on warez (hello malware), or download shareware from iffy sources (hello more malware), and ending up with a slower, less efficient machine.
       
      Wouldn't it be great if they could just learn from any programming, mathematical, enginnering, astonomy apps that they could grab from a repository and just start using?
       

      --


      Information wants to be beer.
    19. Re:The Goal? by KGIII · · Score: 2, Informative

      *sighs* If you're going to mod it troll then at least have the courage to come defend your statement. Of all the views I've expressed tonight on this subject this one has been the most basic and easy to comprehend. If you don't like it then at least come back as AC (I read ALL posts in reply) and defend it with some factual information as well as why you think it was trolling. "I don't like it." Is not justification to moderate something as troll.

      I presented a clear, easy to comprehend, vision and understanding that took a great deal of thought as you'll with the other modifications of those posts. I don't come ready to "argue" my point of view, I come ready to explain it. I posted KNOWING that it would potentially be controversial to the /. moderators and crowds. I posted because it needed to be said. If you're constantly wasted it requires a friend to come to you and tell you that you are going too far.

      They have hardware and software that works to enable them to accomplish the goals of moving themselves beyond their current environment. The idea that you would take that from them because of an ideology is disgusting to me. Think of the first time you touched a PC. Did you CARE what OS it ran or did you get excited because you saw the potential benefits?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    20. Re:The Goal? by mjeffers · · Score: 2, Funny

      A larger number will be curious if presented with the opportunity to see the code, but will not even consider the possibility on their own simply due to a lack of awareness.
      Most of these kids won't realise how computers can be programmed if you don't show them and give them the choice.

      This is totally true, after all NO ONE who grew up using Windows in the 80s/90s ever became a programmer or got interested in computers.

      Careful, your fanboy is showing.

    21. Re:The Goal? by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 3, Funny

      Most of these kids won't realise how computers can be programmed if you don't show them ...

      This is totally true, after all NO ONE who grew up using Windows in the 80s/90s ever became a programmer...

      Careful, your fanboy is showing.

      Careful, your strawman is showing

      --
      My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
    22. Re:The Goal? by KGIII · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'll play. But, I'll play dirty 'cause that's your attempted response.

      ActiveX. Outlook Express. Internet Explorer. Flash. Probably Silverlight.

      Oh they can also likely run Thunderbird, Firefox, GIMP, FileZilla, and more.

      For better or worse, they can do that.

      You can cite alternatives but that wasn't your question now was it?

      The kid down the street? Heh! My kids actually HAVE one each of the OLPC and they, sadly, don't bother with it to the point where I want to go take it from them and use it myself or just get my own. The kids down the street would get ACCESS to the internet. They would get ACCESS to information. The operating system doesn't even fucking matter in those cases. In the few cases where it does they also have ACCESS to the information to change their OS.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    23. Re:The Goal? by mhall119 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I will respond because I didn't make my initial statement without thinking. Greater than what they had - meaning more than. Before this they had nothing available probably. This is not less than nothing.

      No, before this they had an OLPC with Linux available. It's kind of like saying I'll give you a Ferrari, then later on saying I'm actually going to give you a Yugo. Sure, a Yugo is more than nothing, but it is less that what you were initially going to get.

      This computer can still be a learning tool for children. This tool can still teach critical thinking.

      How? What is shipping with WinXP on this laptop that will teach critical thinking?

      One does NOT need to be using an open source platform to engage in critical thinking.

      True, they could have chosen something like Solaris, or forked and closed a BSD like Apple did, and still had most of the benefit they got from Linux. But WinXP is a different beast. You get no compiler. The interface is compiled and you don't have the source. The apps are compiled and you don't have the source. Is there a single program (besides BAT files) on the WinXP that will be shipped with the OLPC that can be changed?

      You can do just fine in getting from Point A to Point B in a beat to shit old Honda.

      Which would be fine, if the goal of OLPC was just to give kids a computer, and if Windows were cheaper than Linux. Neither is true. You're passing up a brand new free Ferrari and instead paying $50 for a beat to shit old Honda.

      What about CHOICE? These people OPTED to use Windows. We can argue that their children didn't opt to but do you really think that they care? No. I don't.

      The point of OLPC was to give them what they need, not what they want. Peru might prefer money going to it's elected officials instead of laptops for kids, that doesn't mean that's what OLPC should be giving them. Again, OLPC wasn't supposed to be giving away a computer that people requested, they were supposed to be providing a tool that these kids could use to improve their situation. Will WinXP do that? Yes. Would Linux do it better? Yes.

      The few that will care, later on down the road, will make those choices as well. Until then they have email, browsers that go to wikipedia, search engines to learn more about the world around them, and so much more.

      They have that on the Linux install too. Again, the problem isn't that they're getting an "okay" OS, the problem is that they were supposed to get a great OS and aren't.

      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    24. Re:The Goal? by hairyfeet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem I have with putting WinXP on it is the fact that it is an SSD,not a HDD. I have used Windows FLP,I have used Windows embedded,and of course have used vanilla XP. There is not a single version that doesn't just LOVE the swap. And since you are talking about a machine running on a medium with a limited number of write cycles to start with,and where there is almost no space to move things around,I'm betting it'll kill the SSD pretty damned quick.

      Also there is tons and tons of free educational software out there for Linux. From what I have read all they are getting is a student version of office and XP installed on the thing due to space restraints. That's it. So unless you want a ton of third world kids learning to waste time playing freecell I don't really see the point. The could have put a localized Edubuntu on there and given the kids lots to do and learn. So unless their goal is to make little sweatshops for underaged office workers it really seems like a waste of time and money in its current form. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    25. Re:The Goal? by stypica · · Score: 2

      Um, business happened and was accomplished in Peru. Bribery was involved. That's how business works down there. It's who you you know, and who you pay under the table.

      Not much different than here in the US really, but we hide it because of the anti-bribery laws. They also apply to US companies doing business in other countries, and foreign companies doing business in the US, but it's a lot harder to track in the foreign countries. Companies just need to be sneakier about the accounting, or worry about whistle blowers.

      Getting kind of off track here but yeah, bribery happened - if this went through *without* bribes? now *that* would be a story.

  3. Be careful in your advocacy by rtfa-troll · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This trial will be a great success. Everything will work great. If need be there will be one MS support person per child. The problems will come two years down the line when it turns out that vista's successor is needed to do any work with windows and doesn't run on the existing hardware. Remember the London stock exchange. Everybody knew how "Windows" increased it's stability. Now, it's two years later and nobody remembers that Windows was involved at the point when the whole thing crashes and can't be recovered.

    Don't say that this trial will be bad or won't succeed. MS will throw everything they have to make it work. Do remember that Peru is building up problems for the future. Do try to explain how that will happen. Do remind people that the first trial has nothing to do with the reality. Do remind them that it's what happens two years or more down the line which you have to look at. Do remind them that the London Stock Exchange will never be credible again.

    --
    =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    1. Re:Be careful in your advocacy by jimdread · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's okay for kids to learn how to use Microsoft software. Microsoft knows that they have to provide educational software for that to happen. They couldn't sit back and allow Linux to dominate that market. The Egyptian and Peruvian governments believe that their children must learn how to use Microsoft software, since it's dominant.

      It's easy to imagine that it will all go wrong in the future, and maybe it will. One good thing is that if XP on the XO fails, it'll be easy to install Linux on those machines. So Microsoft can't afford to boost the project at the start, and then let it die. If they do that, Linux will take over. Microsoft will have to commit to this project for years to come.

      This will also allow direct comparisons between countries which give their children XP XOs and countries which issue Linux XOs. If the Linux ones are working well and the Windows ones are breaking too easily, it'll look very bad for Microsoft. Conversely, if the Windows ones are working well and the Linux ones turn out not to be doing the job, then future countries might like to choose Windows for their XOs.

      The XO project has forced Microsoft to directly compete with Linux on the desktop. This is a battle that Microsoft must win. But can they do it?

    2. Re:Be careful in your advocacy by marc.andrysco · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, Microsoft will have to directly compete against Linux, but the bigger question is will Microsoft play fair. From Microsoft's history, I have to doubt that Linux and Windows will be given equal opportunity. What's going to stop these countries from purchasing Windows solely because the OS appears to work rather than which system provides better overall capabilities.

      Also, weren't the specs of the OLPC laptop already bumped up in order to theoretically support Windows as they're now doing? If so, that would mean that the goal of the laptop to be super-dirt cheap was already subverted by being able to put MS on the thing anyway. Don't get me wrong, the whole project isn't an abysmal failure, but I have to believe that attempting to get MS to function on the laptop has already derailed a lot of the original project's intent. You know, that whole learning thing. Instead, I feel that Windows will simply teach the user to become accustomed to the status quo.

  4. Controversy? What controversy? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Seriously, there is nothing controversial about someone else not agreeing with you or your beliefs.

  5. Re:Controversy? What controversy? by oodaloop · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The controversy is that the OLPC program started off with the goal of delivering an entirely open source machine, and ended up delivering Windows XP. I don't expect everyone to agree with each other, but at least agree with yourself.

    --
    Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
  6. I wish by jsse · · Score: 2, Informative

    they'd make haste, as it'd be very awkward if the trial went passed Windows XP's life cycle.

    Otherwise they might have to do another trial on Vista; and by the time the trial ends, Vista's life cycle...

    1. Re:I wish by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Informative

      XP is still being shipped on netbooks and they will provide fixes for it until 2014. That means that XP will have been supported for 13 years, since it was released in 2001.

      Good luck on getting fixes for a 13 year old Linux distribution.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  7. So... the OLPC... by pieterh · · Score: 5, Insightful

    * Microsoft used every trick they could, including subsidies from the Melinda & Bill Gates Foundation, to destroy OLPC/Linux projects.
    * The OLPC was never distributed en-masse to developers who could have turned it into a living ecosystem.
    * Running Windows on the OLPC is just stupid.
    * Cheap netbooks will make the OLPC redundant.
    * While Microsoft was attacking the OLPC, it lost sight of the fact that Linux is the obvious choice for Chinese netbooks. ... in ten years time every schoolkid in Latin America, Asia, and Africa will be using netbook-style computers that cost $20 and they will be running Linux, and they will have everything the OLPC wanted to have, and more.

    Free software will, eventually, set us free. ("us" = "everyone on the planet except the rich who can afford toys that lock them in and rob them blind").

    --
    My blog
    1. Re:So... the OLPC... by pieterh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To some extent, every successful community needs a bad guy. So pushing XP in Peru will probably promote interest in free software and stimulate FOSS activists to work on educating government about the importance of free software.

      Any responsible politician should be encouraging a home grown FOSS industry because it creates the basis for future jobs. Learning Windows is like learning to eat every meal at McDonalds.

      --
      My blog
    2. Re:So... the OLPC... by value_added · · Score: 4, Funny

      Any responsible politician should be encouraging a home grown FOSS industry because it creates the basis for future jobs. Learning Windows is like learning to eat every meal at McDonalds.

      An insightful comment if ever I read one.

      I wonder, though, if we can extend the metaphor and conclude that the future IT professionals of Peru can now aspire to becoming the equivalent of drive-through-window order takers or, for the more highly skilled or experienced among them, certified fry cooks.

      Or would that be too unfair? ;-)

    3. Re:So... the OLPC... by renoX · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >* Cheap netbooks will make the OLPC redundant.

      I agree with your previous points, but not this one: netbooks have a fan (so are more fragile), consume as much power as regular laptops (which they are with a smaller screen), their screen cannot be read easily in daylight on a sunny day, they don't have mesh networking, etc: there are many reasons why the OLPC XO-1 is better suited for the third world schools than netbooks (even running Linux).

      >* While Microsoft was attacking the OLPC, it lost sight of the fact that Linux is the obvious choice for Chinese netbooks.

      Not really, hence their push for Windows-XP for netbooks. Chinese users have always pirated Windows, why wouldn't they pirate Windows XP for their netbooks. I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft make a Vista-light or keep making an XP version for those netbooks to ensure that Linux's usage stay marginal.

      >in ten years time every schoolkid in Latin America, Asia, and Africa will be using netbook-style computers that cost $20 and they will be running Linux, and they will have everything the OLPC wanted to have, and more.

      Maybe, have you noticed that the price of netbooks since the first EEE 701 have only gone up?
      Hardware makers don't like too cheap hardware because they're afraid of loosing sells of higher priced laptops..

    4. Re:So... the OLPC... by wren337 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The OLPC paved the way for cheap netbooks no question. But if you've ever had an OLPC in your hands, it has a great feel that you're not going to match with any of the netbooks out there. The form factor and construction are pretty great. I'd like to see more hardware platforms with that kind of durable feel designed into them - this is a laptop you could leave on the floorboard of your car, or hand to young children and let them use it in the yard unsupervised.

    5. Re:So... the OLPC... by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree with your previous points, but not this one: netbooks have a fan (so are more fragile), consume as much power as regular laptops (which they are with a smaller screen), their screen cannot be read easily in daylight on a sunny day, they don't have mesh networking, etc: there are many reasons why the OLPC XO-1 is better suited for the third world schools than netbooks (even running Linux).

      Isn't mesh networking simply a software function? or does it require explicit hardware support?
      The fan and screen are relatively easy things that could be changed... Most netbooks are considerably more powerful than the OLPC, and would happily run fanless if clocked down to similar performance levels.

      Not really, hence their push for Windows-XP for netbooks. Chinese users have always pirated Windows, why wouldn't they pirate Windows XP for their netbooks. I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft make a Vista-light or keep making an XP version for those netbooks to ensure that Linux's usage stay marginal.

      Because in order to further reduce cost, some of these manufacturers forego the more expensive x86 compatible processors that can run windows, in favor of cheaper and lower power chinese produced ARM or MIPS based cores, which cannot run windows, but will run linux perfectly well while being cheaper and more power efficient. ARM processors pretty much dominate the cellphone market, are manufactured by the millions, and are cheap and low power while being more than powerful enough to run linux.

      Maybe, have you noticed that the price of netbooks since the first EEE 701 have only gone up?
      Hardware makers don't like too cheap hardware because they're afraid of loosing sells of higher priced laptops..

      Yes, hardware makers like HP, Dell, Asus etc who have existing product lines of laptops to protect...
      But what about chinese companies who don't already produce laptops, and thus have no existing market to protect?

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  8. Meanwhile.... by tgoodmannz · · Score: 2, Funny

    In Other news, South America suddenly has reported a massive jump in instance of BotNet initiated spam......

  9. Drivers by JohnFluxx · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What about drivers? Windows has very few drivers compared to Linux, so won't this have only minimal support for extra USB devices? I don't think 3rd party drivers will work on the OLPC.

    1. Re:Drivers by JohnFluxx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well you're wrong. The linux kernel comes with far more drivers than Windows comes with natively. The majority of drivers that people use in Windows are 3rd party and Microsoft does not have the source code for them. Microsoft cannot recompile 3rd party drivers for the OLPC.

    2. Re:Drivers by Curtman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I can't see this being a problem with the OLPC having all the same hardware, but you never know with Microsoft.

      If you've ever had the experience of trying to install XP on a laptop when XP knows nothing about the network device, and you can't find your disk then you would know what GP was talking about. Boot up a Linux Live CD and download the driver is about the only solution unless you have another PC around to retrieve the stupid driver.

      It's rare to find hardware that doesn't work in Linux, and also rare to find hardware that works out of the box with XP these days.

    3. Re:Drivers by Peeteriz · · Score: 2, Informative

      My wife got a HP laptop that came with Vista, which I promptly threw XP wasn't supported, and the onboard wifi and soundcard did not work in XP. And after quite a lot of searching I found out that it won't be supported, and no known similar drivers work for Windows XP - but Ubuntu seems to work fine..

  10. Re:Controversy? What controversy? by rtfa-troll · · Score: 5, Informative

    To be a bit more specific; OLPC took donations from people who believed they were helping to increase educational freedom in basic computing in the third world and used that money to further the aims of a company specifically trying to reduce that freedom. I'm not totally sure that Sugar is a good idea; I really don't know if OLPC with Linux could be perfect. However, I do know that the organisation was built up on money from people donating their second laptops and that those donations are being channeled into things many of those people don't belive in or wish to support.

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  11. pilot project of Microsoft, not Peru by teazen · · Score: 5, Informative

    Ed McNierney, Vice President of Software Development of OLPC sent a message to the OLPC-devel mailing list today, stating that "Microsoft has previously ordered a number of XO laptops for XP testing and pilot deployment. The usage and distribution of these machines for that effort is up to Microsoft, and that's what they're doing in Peru."

    So Microsoft does a tiny-weeny implementation with one pilot school in Peru all by itself, while the main deployment in Peru with about 260.000 laptops will run Sugar on Linux. But no reporter seems to take the time to fud-check Microsoft's press statements. Surprise!

    1. Re:pilot project of Microsoft, not Peru by MikeUW · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well thanks for clarifying that...my first thought was wtf are they doing this for when Peru already passed a law favouring open source three years ago.

    2. Re:pilot project of Microsoft, not Peru by teazen · · Score: 5, Interesting

      What also needs clarifying perhaps is that it's not OLPC that's abandoning Linux for Windows. OLPC is basically becoming more and more a hardware vendor. It's not OLPC that does the deployments and it's not OLPC that decides what software will be shipped with the cute green thingies. That would be the governments and grassroots organizations that buy said laptops.

      Here in Nepal, where our grassroots organization has started a pilot project, there's as of yet not all to much help from OLPC, except from IRC and mailing-list traffic. Also Sugar for example is now handled by an independent organization called Sugarlabs, even though the developers of OLPC and Sugarlabs still work together.

      So there's at least three parties, but usually the playing field is quite a bit more complicated in a deployment zone (rivalling hardware vendors, the relationship between grassroots organizations and governments, elections, etc...), and all players can mix and match with others. We for example can run our educational software on a classmate if we want or need to. And Sugar is on the way to be ported to other platforms. Windows can run on the XO...

      Also the headlines about the XO lately make it seem like Windows has already won the race. But the reality atm is that there are 55k Linux/Sugar XO's are being shipped every month and a stable, workable Windows on the XO is still a few months away. Also the new round of Give One Get One will contain Linux, not Windows. And I have yet to hear of a confirmed large scale XO deployment with Windows on in stead of Linux.

    3. Re:pilot project of Microsoft, not Peru by teazen · · Score: 2, Informative

      Agreed.

      And I won't try to defend the direction OLPC has taken or anything. Actually not. The OLPC philosophy is 'throw them a computer, and they will learn by themselves'. This will work for some area's for some children, but not always is my humble opinion. But I think that that creating content is best left to [local | national] organisations that know the local requirements. The content has to tie into the local educational system because governments sets up certain educational goals to be met.

      And believe it or not, the XO has actually helped spur such organizations. I'm sorry that I have to go a bit personal here but without OLPC, our organisation, OLE Nepal wouldn't have existed. We're a rapidly expanding non-profit organisation of about 20 people, 11 of which are working fulltime (compared to about four last year around this time) making content. We've now got over 100 activities ready, 90 of which (you can try them out for yourself) are in use at our pilot schools. We alse developed the groundworks for a digital library called E-Pustakalaya, we provide teacher training and we set up wireless infrastructure.

      Those activities are a good thing. In Nepal about the only method of consolidating information atm is through rote-learning. This becomes very apparent in mathematics for example, where students can't calculate the opposite side of a triangle when in a test the indicators for the sides a, b and c are replaced with r, s and t.

      If some organisation in Boston would just throw Nepal funky looking laptops with a random collection of software building blocks, teachers wouldn't have a use for them and well-willing people would have a hard time explaining what would justify the government or well-willing NGO's to fork out 200 a pop for these babies.

  12. Re:Controversy? What controversy? by rtfa-troll · · Score: 3, Informative

    those donations are being channeled into things many of those people don't belive in or wish to support.

    Whilst I don't know if Microsoft paid the "donate one get one" price that everyone else had to pay; I note that I seem to have been taken in by MS FUD and at least MS has had to pay something towards the cost of these laptops. Apologies to anyone at OLPC who I offended. I'll be more careful about trusting MS in future :-) :-(

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  13. If I was paranoid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I would say this is an effort by MS to make the OLPC project look unattractive to the eyes of FOSS developers, thus starving the OLPC of developer effort. I've been to two XO developer days and on both days the OLPC people were questioned and were very explicit in their replies: that Windows is not part of the OLPC project and that the Windows port is an independent privateer effort by Microsoft. Despite the clear denials someone keeps spreading rumours the OLPC has replaced or partially replaced Linux with Windows.

    1. Re:If I was paranoid... by pieterh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, it's quite interesting. I remember when Windows NT used to run on several platforms (Intel, Alpha) and then gradually Microsoft dropped support for everything except the latest and greatest Intel boxes.

      Linux, meanwhile, colonized the supercomputer and the embedded markets, and moved towards the desktop from both ends. This is still happening today: most servers run Linux and most smaller devices run Linux.

      So both the Cray and the OLPC represent Microsofts attempts to push against this tide, and in some ways a reversal of previous policy. XP was going to be dropped, but now it's too valuable as a lightweight Windows for smaller notebooks.

      To be honest, it reminds me a lot of parts of Holland which are 6 meters (that's about 18 feet) under sea level but which are protected by dykes and walls. The sea is rising, the land is sinking, but it's "so far, so good".

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  14. XP On School Computers by Mista2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    With Windows installed, the students will be able to learn how to use Office to create documents and pay their MS tax. With Sugar, thy might have a chance to learn how Operating Systems work, can change and compile their own if they want to, and a locked down OS miht have helped keep many common pieces of malware away. I thought the OLPC was supposed to be a learning tool, not just another $100 netbook.

  15. This is something new by hey! · · Score: 5, Funny

    Putting a pig on lipstick.

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  16. Re:Peru & Microsoft?? by MPAB · · Score: 2, Informative

    Never happened. OTOH, Peru has a HUGE piracy market, known locally as "Wilson Galleries" or "Wilson st." in the case of software, "Mesa Redonda" and "El Hueco" for music and video. And let's not forget "Polvos Azules" for bootlegging, "Tacora" and "La Victoria" (a whole district) for stolen car parts and "Malvinas Ave." for pretty much everything ele that's been stolen.

    The availability of cheap (stolen/counterfeit/pirated) computers and software has pushed MS deep into the peruvian psyche as the one and only option.

  17. Re:Controversy? What controversy? by dreamchaser · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I thought the main goal was to bring affordable laptops to children around the world, and that OSS was just a means to an end.

  18. Only a trial by The+New+Andy · · Score: 3, Informative

    Open Source On The Air has an interview with Pia Waugh which talks about this. The vast majority of the laptops will be Linux, there is a small trial of Windows (and as you'd expect, it doesn't run so well).

  19. Re:Speak for yourself by Bert64 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The difference is...
    The C64, VIC20, PET etc all dropped you into a BASIC interpreter and encouraged you to learn how do do more than just play prewritten games.
    Windows actively discourages you from doing this, even trying to view a list of system files is greeted with a "this is dangerous, dont do this" warning.

    Commodore were very good in that respect, even the later Amiga systems came with simply instructions to copy the workbench disks, and then declared you can do anything you like to the copy and encouraged you to do so, worst case you simply go back to the start and make a new copy of the originals.

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  20. Re:Peru & Microsoft?? by mcvos · · Score: 2, Informative

    Never happened.

    A quick google shows that the bill does indeed not prohibit MS software entirely, but it sounds like it does prohibit a pro-MS preference:

    http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2005/09/29/peru-rejects-microsoft-windows
    http://www.smh.com.au/news/breaking/perus-green-light-to-opensource-software/2005/09/28/1127804508352.html
    http://news.cnet.com/Perus-president-approves-open-source-bill/2110-7344_3-5907226.html

    And some older articles that sound a bit more extreme (like I remembered it):
    http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2002/07/54141
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/05/19/ms_in_peruvian_opensource_nightmare/

  21. Flash Support. by Benanov · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Flash Support?

    Now that's low.

    So Microsoft is using the fact that the Linux/Sugar combination doesn't support a competitor's product (which they're trying to kill with their own product) to convince governments to use Windows machines?

    That's some crazy marketing sauce, but whatever works I guess.

    Personally my XO will be running gNewSense shortly.

  22. Re:Controversy? What controversy? by mjeffers · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Mission Statement: To create educational opportunities for the world's poorest children by providing each child with a rugged, low-cost, low-power, connected laptop with content and software designed for collaborative, joyful, self-empowered learning.

    OLPC is not, at heart, a technology program, nor is the XO a product in any conventional sense of the word. OLPC is a non-profit organization providing a means to an end--an end that sees children in even the most remote regions of the globe being given the opportunity to tap into their own potential, to be exposed to a whole world of ideas, and to contribute to a more productive and saner world community.

    both quotes from the OLPC mission page.

    If you want to be accurate, a bunch of open source zealots donated to a program who used open source software as a tactic towards their larger strategic goals of educating the world's children. When the organization shifted tactics in order to accomplish their larger goal these zealots got butt-hurt because they never really understood or supported the main point to begin with.

    If you can't see the difference between goals and the means used to accomplish them, its not the fault of the OLPC group.

  23. Bingo by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 2, Interesting

    OLPC has gone from an educational endeavor to just another plain old business-hegemony endeavor.

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  24. Re:It's a shame, really by mhall119 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What learning tools are being shipped with WinXP on these laptops?

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  25. Re:Controversy? What controversy? by lordofthechia · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The goal was to deliver an educational platform.

    Same as if we decided a program to teach kids in country x to improve their mechanical knowledge and allow them to explore new fuels. We come up with an easy to understand vehicle design and engine that is efficient and runs on fuels of tomorrow. More importantly they can look under the hood and easily experiment with / modify parts at will.

    Here comes big oil and subverts the platform by swapping out the (hydrogen/electric/whatever) engines with gas burning engines, welding shut the hood. Governement X praises it because "The rest of the world burns oil, why shouldn't we".

    People pop out of the woodworks to state how these cars are better at getting people around, they "conform". The argument now moves from "Let's deliver educational tools" to "let's deliver transportation". The kids/adolescents no longer learn about the inner workings of engines, instead they learn to conform.

    Big oil gets a few 100,000 more customers.

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  26. Re:It's a shame, really by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Umm......The whole point around the OLPC was that not only could kids learn things like the three R's from them,but as they got older they could tinker around inside the OS and get it to do new things and learn about tech at the same time. Now all you have is a REALLY slow Windows laptop.And let us not forget that while there are ways to cut down on a Linux install from using the HDD,Windows just LOVES to swap. And with these being underpowered and RAM straved anyway I'm betting that XP thrashes the poor SSD to death pretty damned quick. Which of course leaves nothing but a dead Windows laptop.

    That said,Negroponte seems to be determined to torpedo the thing anyway. If he would have sold them to the first world as well(and the give one/get one is NOT selling to the first world) he could have gotten the economies of scale on his side and lowered the price enough that every kid could afford one. Between his refusing to sell to the first world and then slowing it to a crawl with Windows(does he really think that MSFT won't pull the plug on his license deal if Intel says so? I mean they shot themselves in the foot with Vista just so Intel could sell some lousy integrated chips) he really seems to be slowly but surely killing the thing. Maybe whoever buys the designs when he goes under will sell the thing to the masses and we'll truly have "one laptop per child" but until then I'm predicting they are on a slow death march to oblivion. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV

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  27. Exactly -- what *is* the goal here? by zooblethorpe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And KGill is saying, "well, them's the breaks, but X-Y is better than nothing... "

    Indeed. KGill appears to be (hopefully unwittingly?) setting up a strawman argument here. The choice is *not* XP+OLPC (expensive) or nothing (cheapest), it's at least XP+OLPC (expensive) or Linux+OLPC (cheaper) or nothing (cheapest), with more possibilities conceivable. And if we're going by the Think Of The Children (TM) argument, it sure looks like Door #2 here with Linux on the machines would have allowed for more OLPCs going to more kids.

    I'm not about evangelizing. I'm a pragmatist -- I'm interested in getting things done. And if the end goal is to get OLPCs into the hands of more kids, then Linux (or some other FOSS OS) is the way to go, simply in terms of cost.

    Cheers,

    --
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  28. Not true by PinkyDead · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that Microsoft's mechanism is software based.

    Microsoft is not the market leader in the desktop because of that silly little IE bundling nonsense nor are they the leader because the have the best O/S.

    Microsoft is the market leader, because for nearly 20 years every single PC that came out of the factory had a Windows sticker on it (I'll knock Bill Gates for a lot of things - but respect for one of the greatest business strategies since Jesus). Most people do not know the difference between a PC (or a computer full stop for that matter) and Microsoft Windows. In fact, a large proportion think that 'PC' and 'Word' are synonyms.

    Getting Schools to teach children that 'Microsoft = Computer' is the cheapest and most effective marketing tool they have. And once that mindset is in place, Microsoft has a much more powerful mechanism to stop you running non-Microsoft software on your PC.

    --
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  29. Re:It's a shame, really by Locutus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Negroponte and his type will never learn that you can not put anything out which can be interpreted as a threat to Microsoft AND tell them who you are selling or giving the products to.

    They don't even know that this Windows-on-the-XO is all a plan to terminate the project. To run them out of funds and essentially render them insignificant. Do you really think Microsoft wanted to help the project and spread Windows while at the same time taking them over a year to get Windows XP running on the XO? It reminds me of how the developer and business community kept asking Microsoft for JDBC drivers for MS SQL Server. 3rd party options were available but you know how adverse many businesses are non-Microsoft software. Well Microsoft finally conceeded and said they'd provide a JDBC driver but it was going to take them 18 months to fully test it and release it. That's right, a JDBC driver taking 1.5 years for Microsoft to ship. This is what Microsoft is doing to the OLPC. Playing their game of killing them in slow motion.

    Can you imagine if the Speak-N-Spell had Linux running on it how that product would end up once Microsoft used their influence to get the impression Windows was required for it to be acceptable? The OLPC was originally designed as a special purpose teaching tool with custom software to make it as easy to use as an appliance for these tasks. Now, it has turned into a tool to teach the way Microsoft experts decided Microsoft software should be launched and found on a computer over 15 years ago. And a very slow one at that.

    Microsoft gets a point for fooling some highly educated people. The OLPC gets -1 point for being suckered into this track of putting Windows on the XO. Bender and others get 5 points for seeing this and trying to save what real work can be saved(Sugar) and 10 points go to anyone who takes the hardware design of the XO, ports it to ARM and comes out with what I would consider a better product.

    LoB

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