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Peru To Be First To Put Windows On OLPC Laptop
Da Massive writes "The government of Peru will run the first ever trial of the One Laptop Per Child association's XO laptop running Windows XP. This puts the nation at the heart of a software controversy that has been raging for years between those who advocate making software and its source code free, such as Linux OS developers, and those who charge for software and keep the development recipes secret, such as Microsoft."
He's always got my goat, I wish he'd give it back. I used to read his breathless commentary in Wired in the 90s, visionary - pah, up his own arse.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Is this Microsoft's shining path into South America?
At least there is technology getting into the hands of children who can use it to further their education. Before we whine about it running on proprietary software let's also keep in mind that it gives them access greater than what they had, interoperability they may never have had, and there are plenty of open source projects that they can use if they want to.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
This trial will be a great success. Everything will work great. If need be there will be one MS support person per child. The problems will come two years down the line when it turns out that vista's successor is needed to do any work with windows and doesn't run on the existing hardware. Remember the London stock exchange. Everybody knew how "Windows" increased it's stability. Now, it's two years later and nobody remembers that Windows was involved at the point when the whole thing crashes and can't be recovered.
Don't say that this trial will be bad or won't succeed. MS will throw everything they have to make it work. Do remember that Peru is building up problems for the future. Do try to explain how that will happen. Do remind people that the first trial has nothing to do with the reality. Do remind them that it's what happens two years or more down the line which you have to look at. Do remind them that the London Stock Exchange will never be credible again.
=~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
TCO will be so much higher on winXP OLPC
OLPC interface may have been too far 'out there'
I would have gone down a more eeepc style desktop
Ofcourse MS$ help OLPC as a profit seeking company but let's not kid ourselves that this is not at the expense of poorer regions.
Seriously, there is nothing controversial about someone else not agreeing with you or your beliefs.
The controversy is that the OLPC program started off with the goal of delivering an entirely open source machine, and ended up delivering Windows XP. I don't expect everyone to agree with each other, but at least agree with yourself.
Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
controversy (plural controversies):
1. A debate, discussion of opposing opinions;
=~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
they'd make haste, as it'd be very awkward if the trial went passed Windows XP's life cycle.
Otherwise they might have to do another trial on Vista; and by the time the trial ends, Vista's life cycle...
* Microsoft used every trick they could, including subsidies from the Melinda & Bill Gates Foundation, to destroy OLPC/Linux projects. ... in ten years time every schoolkid in Latin America, Asia, and Africa will be using netbook-style computers that cost $20 and they will be running Linux, and they will have everything the OLPC wanted to have, and more.
* The OLPC was never distributed en-masse to developers who could have turned it into a living ecosystem.
* Running Windows on the OLPC is just stupid.
* Cheap netbooks will make the OLPC redundant.
* While Microsoft was attacking the OLPC, it lost sight of the fact that Linux is the obvious choice for Chinese netbooks.
Free software will, eventually, set us free. ("us" = "everyone on the planet except the rich who can afford toys that lock them in and rob them blind").
My blog
In Other news, South America suddenly has reported a massive jump in instance of BotNet initiated spam......
What about drivers? Windows has very few drivers compared to Linux, so won't this have only minimal support for extra USB devices? I don't think 3rd party drivers will work on the OLPC.
To be a bit more specific; OLPC took donations from people who believed they were helping to increase educational freedom in basic computing in the third world and used that money to further the aims of a company specifically trying to reduce that freedom. I'm not totally sure that Sugar is a good idea; I really don't know if OLPC with Linux could be perfect. However, I do know that the organisation was built up on money from people donating their second laptops and that those donations are being channeled into things many of those people don't belive in or wish to support.
=~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
Ed McNierney, Vice President of Software Development of OLPC sent a message to the OLPC-devel mailing list today, stating that "Microsoft has previously ordered a number of XO laptops for XP testing and pilot deployment. The usage and distribution of these machines for that effort is up to Microsoft, and that's what they're doing in Peru."
So Microsoft does a tiny-weeny implementation with one pilot school in Peru all by itself, while the main deployment in Peru with about 260.000 laptops will run Sugar on Linux. But no reporter seems to take the time to fud-check Microsoft's press statements. Surprise!
Microsoft doesn't like to lose, and they will do ANYTHING to win. That doesn't necessarily translate to better products of course.
Just because they've been caught with their pants down regarding the emergence of netbooks/sub-notebooks, doesn't mean they won't find a way to dominate there as well.
Let's not forget Peru's involvement. They were led to believe that a child would/could/should only learn one operating system, and since Windows is most pervasive in the world, it's the "right" choice. Convinced, Peru insisted on XP.
But wasn't Peru firmly in the anti-Microsoft camp a few years ago, when they passed a law that all government computers should run open source software?
The issue is not which operating system is better but which is easier. The concept is that OLPC computers are going to children that do not have access to computers. As much as you don't like Microsoft it is easier to use for people who are not already familiar with computers.
Whilst I don't know if Microsoft paid the "donate one get one" price that everyone else had to pay; I note that I seem to have been taken in by MS FUD and at least MS has had to pay something towards the cost of these laptops. Apologies to anyone at OLPC who I offended. I'll be more careful about trusting MS in future :-) :-(
=~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
Remember the London stock exchange. Everybody knew how "Windows" increased it's stability. Now, it's two years later and nobody remembers that Windows was involved at the point when the whole thing crashes and can't be recovered.
So knowing the massive complexity of how a stock exchange system works you're certain it was Windows that caused the crash? Wow, you truly are worthy of those mod points.
And in what way was it a "piece of shit"? It was designed to support basic hardware with basic software for basic users, at a low cost. It would eventually do exactly what it was meant to do, and by eventually I mean when all software was optimized and stabilized enough.
I am the lawn!
While I don't doubt that Microsoft has went to strenuous efforts to make sure that XP gets on these devices (cheap, small form factor devices are a huge, gaping hole in Microsoft's OEM channel) these projects always manage to shoot themselves in the foot, and the problem here is the software. Sugar is just complete shit, quite frankly. A self-righteous piece of software, full of its own self-importance, that didn't really solve or offer anything.
Now, maybe if somebody had got a clue, looked around the free software landscape and pre-installed some of the great educational software we have (KDE's EDU suite of apps, for example) that Microsoft couldn't pre-install by default on XP, that would have been worth something to a lot of people. If Negropante had any vision, he would have really put effort into the software, and even if Windows XP was pushed people would have used the free software anyway - because it was so good. Alas, another opportunity has been missed.
i think you answered your own question there
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
I would say this is an effort by MS to make the OLPC project look unattractive to the eyes of FOSS developers, thus starving the OLPC of developer effort. I've been to two XO developer days and on both days the OLPC people were questioned and were very explicit in their replies: that Windows is not part of the OLPC project and that the Windows port is an independent privateer effort by Microsoft. Despite the clear denials someone keeps spreading rumours the OLPC has replaced or partially replaced Linux with Windows.
With Windows installed, the students will be able to learn how to use Office to create documents and pay their MS tax. With Sugar, thy might have a chance to learn how Operating Systems work, can change and compile their own if they want to, and a locked down OS miht have helped keep many common pieces of malware away. I thought the OLPC was supposed to be a learning tool, not just another $100 netbook.
How can anyone expect an uneducated government (IT wise) to set up a sound education plan based solely on IT? How about we begin with OLPM (One Laptop Per Minister), and then move to phase 2?
I am the lawn!
Putting a pig on lipstick.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Microsoft's development recipe: 0. Sign NDA with developer staff 1. Open open-source 2. Copy 3. Paste 4. Customize 5. Compile 6. Put sourcecode under lock
You made the claim. It's up to you to prove the link between the crash and the MS update! Everything you have said so far is supposition.
America, Home of the Brave.
I suppose you are right.
"This puts the nation at the heart of a software controversy..."
Not going open source is a controversy now? When did that happen?
I thought the main goal was to bring affordable laptops to children around the world, and that OSS was just a means to an end.
You're fricken old! My first was a Vic-20 but I didn't have access to the OS code at all. Then again, I was like five and learning to program in BASIC with it because there was fuck all else to do on it. Until about five years ago I maintained SkiDownHillFaster for my own amusement. After that it was Amiga or Atari (I don't recall which) then a DEC that a buddy's mom brought me, and then Unix.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
This puts the nation at the heart of a software controversy...
I'm not really certain it's so much an OSS v proprietary story as much as government officials being influenced by big corporate money.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Open Source On The Air has an interview with Pia Waugh which talks about this. The vast majority of the laptops will be Linux, there is a small trial of Windows (and as you'd expect, it doesn't run so well).
You're fricken old! My first was a Vic-20 but I didn't have access to the OS code at all.
You could get a commented ROM listing directly from Commodore. I had one for the C= 64.
Nah, man. That isn't the "controversy" at all. It's all about this massive secret the reporter uncovered from the seedy underbelly of The Internet, and chose to enlighten us with:
UTF-8: There and Back Again
We don't have to prove that at all. All we have to prove is that Microsoft claimed a link between the change to Windows and improved stability. To prove that just look at the MS press releases about the project. Because of their previous claims, Microsoft has to prove that not only was the fault not linked to Windows, but that they could have done nothing reasonable to prevent it.
=~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
Yeah I answered my own question alright. Appearantly in your world you push a button and a flawless piece of code is written. How can you not recognise testing, optimizing and stabilizing as an ongoing process of any software?
I am the lawn!
The bulk of society has already adopted Windows. And the bulk of society is lazy -- far too lazy (or afraid) to change the OS that you buy the computer with to even a better OS.
The way to get people to adopt open source is to make it the easiest option to access. Currently, Open Source is always taking second place in terms of being the easiest to access because Microsoft cuts the line and puts their OS on every retail computer.
Most of Peru's computer users likely use Windows, so I can't see a problem with this.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
I am not entirely sure but I should have been more clear. With the PET that was an option (it came with it) because I was like six (it was actually older than the Vic-20) my dad and I built one together. I don't know of one for the Vic-20. *sighs* It wasn't a very EFFECTIVE machine but I enjoy the memories of building it with him. It sat in a wooden box, no moving parts other than the keyboard as I recall. I remember clearly the smell of his aftershave, the oil from his rifle (he was a Marine), and the smell from the polish on his boots. We're talking 1979 so the memories are fuzzier than most.
So, well, to cite the above... It really doesn't matter the OS nor the "freedom of the code." What matters is that they have access and those who have the desire can do what they want with their technology. These kids who want to can and will put Linux on there. People seem to think I'm defending Microsoft (I do at some points but this is not a time where I feel I need to) but I am not. I am standing up for freedom, the freedom to choose, and I can understand why people will be unhappy that they didn't choose what they wanted them to pick but that's typical in any two sided debate. All I really care about is that they get computers. Don't you remember the excitement the first time you touched one? Did it REALLY matter what it ran as an OS at that point? Not to me it didn't.
10 Print "Hello World";
20 goto 10
30 End
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
The difference is...
The C64, VIC20, PET etc all dropped you into a BASIC interpreter and encouraged you to learn how do do more than just play prewritten games.
Windows actively discourages you from doing this, even trying to view a list of system files is greeted with a "this is dangerous, dont do this" warning.
Commodore were very good in that respect, even the later Amiga systems came with simply instructions to copy the workbench disks, and then declared you can do anything you like to the copy and encouraged you to do so, worst case you simply go back to the start and make a new copy of the originals.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Hm... It's a little different with the Commodore Home Computers. You were practically forced to frickle around in the operating system. Even the booklet you got with the C= 64 had programming examples with lots of PEEK and POKE, where you were copying things from ROM, modifying them (most notably the character set) and switching parts of the ROMs off and on again to allow for bitwise graphics or to get the box to produce sounds.
There was a little bit of hardware abstraction in the I/O routines, which you could either use or also switch off. But then you had the bare metal to code on, and either you wrote your own I/O routines, or you were mirroring the ones you needed from I/O ROM into the RAM and modifying them.
In fact the computers hadn't a real OS in the original sense. There was no initial program whose task was to adminstrate all computer ressources and provide services to application programs running on top of them. There were said I/O routines, there was a boot loader that started the BASIC interpreter from ROM, and there were other ROMs with the character- and the graphic symbol set. You could use them directly, you could use them partly and add your own routines, or you could just ignore them and write your own routines.
That's completely different from a computer running Win XP. Win XP is a fullfledged OS. Either you have XP adminstrating all ressources on your computer, or you have to install another OS. There is no tinkering around with only parts from XP (lets say: Having only the drivers running, but calling them from your programs directly without the XP access mechanisms), there is a big abstraction layer above the XP core which you aren't able to look through.
---First of all I am latin american so stop the racist and pseudo-leftist patronizing now. The reasons why peruvian authorities choose Windows over Linux are obvious to me: first, because Windows (whichever version) is the stuff used by characters in tv series from the USA like "Grey' Anatomy", "the Sarah Connors chronicles" etc. Remember when John Connor enters a computer shop? What was the computer running? Vista! And this is the source of information for our decision makers, which are usually the least qualified but best connected people.
And that's why Vista is shown on there. Vista is failing hook, line and sinker. Vista is a turd that Microsoft has to shove on people. And the worst part: you're falling for it.
---The second reason is what I call the "click mentality". All what the people wants is to make a click with the mouse and instantly have their pirated music and games automatically downloaded, and open a messaging session for sharing gossips and trivialities. And in Windows, all the applications that allow this download instantly without asking. Most people, including university students, would not mind a laptop if their cellphone had a bigger screen! Many engineering students make sacrifices for buying a Hp49 or Hp50 scientific calculator and they don't learn how to program it or use the embedded symbolic solver either. What matters is to rub it on others faces. I am cooler than you!
This is my experience after installing and writing software, and managing computer systems and networks in latin america since the 80's and that includes DOS, every version of Windows, Netware, SCO and Linux. People don't mind technology. The mind "coolness" and instant gratification.
Try using Ubuntu. It has "click mentality" but no strings attached.
Perhaps you can then see something different.
Do you recall the first time the screen lit up? The first time you made it do SOMETHING it wasn't meant to do?
You are probably an exception to the rule.
Those kids who are excited by that magic will continue to be so, regardless of the OS. They will then use that OS to go get the information and, if they want, they'll alter it to suit their needs. I'm just happy that they have the initial hardware there to learn on and that those who opt to not go that far (probably the majority) will have something that suits their needs.
Could those needs have been met with another OS? Of course. Just like those needs could have been met regardless of it being open or closed source. I really spent MANY hours thinking about this, sometimes I think it added up to days. I was unhappy when OLPC went with Windows but then I stopped and thought about what the real goals were and who exactly was the target user of said hardware. OLPC is a hardware response, it should not ever be a software response. That, to me, is freedom. Let them pick as they wish.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Funny, a sponsored ad for the Dell mini came up.
Though many companies originally turned down OLPC, OLPC setup the low cost laptop at one of the main laptop manufacturing facilities in the world.
When the buy one give one comes around, support OLPC and then if you aren't going to use yours, give it to an inner city school.
Flash Support?
Now that's low.
So Microsoft is using the fact that the Linux/Sugar combination doesn't support a competitor's product (which they're trying to kill with their own product) to convince governments to use Windows machines?
That's some crazy marketing sauce, but whatever works I guess.
Personally my XO will be running gNewSense shortly.
What happened to Congressman Villanueva and Peruvian Bill Number 1609 (Free Software in Public Administration)?
http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-05-20-006-26-IN-LF-PB
Most of all, it's not a consistent decision: The original goal is bringing technological literacy to those who did not grow into it naturally. But you don't learn how to understand a computer if each step beyond launching MS-[fill in] is discouraged. I mean, if children grow up reading "this and that is dangerous" or "thou shalt not copy" constantly, they believe it. And once adults, their values will be set.
How is the Latinamerican mentality any different from the American one? You mean every person in the US of A is a Linux kernel hacker? Come on. It's not about the "click mentality." It's about what makes things run faster an easily. KDE has Ktorrent, so the torrent part you mention is even easier in Linux! (Not to mention a lot of other clients). BTW, I'm Latinamerican too :3
both quotes from the OLPC mission page.
If you want to be accurate, a bunch of open source zealots donated to a program who used open source software as a tactic towards their larger strategic goals of educating the world's children. When the organization shifted tactics in order to accomplish their larger goal these zealots got butt-hurt because they never really understood or supported the main point to begin with.
If you can't see the difference between goals and the means used to accomplish them, its not the fault of the OLPC group.
"They will then use that OS to go get the information and, if they want, they'll alter it to suit their needs"
If they do this, they are generally going to be in violation of the EULA, which last I checked frowned upon modification and workarounds.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
OLPC has gone from an educational endeavor to just another plain old business-hegemony endeavor.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
What learning tools are being shipped with WinXP on these laptops?
http://www.mhall119.com
I hate to say this but your comments are doing nothing to further everyone else's perceptions of the intelligence of the AC crowd on here either.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
So when can we expect Ubuntu on the XO laptops? I'd support that.
I own an XO with Sugar installed. I like the system's UI metaphor, but it is exceedingly different from the common Windows / Mac / X11-with-the-popular-WM metaphors. For that reason alone, I could see educators wanting children to learn a more mainstream system; teaching them something as avant-garde as Sugar risks sending them out into the real world without sufficient practical knowledge.
Keep in mind that the "learn the underlying concepts, the rest is just detail" concept of computer education only works for a subset of students. The rest really do need to be shown explicitly what button to push, and going from Sugar's desktop to the Windows desktop when they leave school could put them at a severe market disadvantage against students who learned Windows, Ubuntu, Mac OS X, or another traditional desktop metaphor and suite of applications.
It's not that it's a Windows world so much as that it's a windowed world. Sugar is pretty far out there.
Take care,
Mark
There is a solution...
no son, i'm sorry, but you can't learn to ride this bicycle until you completely understand gear differentials, and can calculate velocity and acceleration - possibly even jerk - because these things are absolutely required before you learn to ride a bicycle.
The goal was to deliver an educational platform.
Same as if we decided a program to teach kids in country x to improve their mechanical knowledge and allow them to explore new fuels. We come up with an easy to understand vehicle design and engine that is efficient and runs on fuels of tomorrow. More importantly they can look under the hood and easily experiment with / modify parts at will.
Here comes big oil and subverts the platform by swapping out the (hydrogen/electric/whatever) engines with gas burning engines, welding shut the hood. Governement X praises it because "The rest of the world burns oil, why shouldn't we".
People pop out of the woodworks to state how these cars are better at getting people around, they "conform". The argument now moves from "Let's deliver educational tools" to "let's deliver transportation". The kids/adolescents no longer learn about the inner workings of engines, instead they learn to conform.
Big oil gets a few 100,000 more customers.
Georgia Tech, the leader in Chia(tm) technology.
People tend to prefer using later in life the tools they learnt using when younger.
(As an exemple see the boom of pascal-written shareware once that language got popular in school systems).
By subjecting these kids to Microsoft's product, you grow a new generation that will prefer using these tools. They grow up, they start jobs, and there they ask for what they have known best their whole life.
Congratulation, you've successfully a whole country's IT sector to depend on an foreign product. Peru's IT in 20 years will regularly send wads of cash out of the country toward the US-based Microsoft (well if they are still around), to obtain in exchange software they will *never* have any control on.
At least if they are a significantly big market by then, Mirosoft might try to listen to their needs and take them into account when building next versions of their product.
But you didn't empower local geniuses. You just taught them to be dependent on a foreign product.
Contrast this with any copylefted technology (Linux / BSD or whatever is you preferred thing).
Kids grow up (in a culture of tweaking hacking and exploring which itself has its own adventage but that's not the point of my demonstration).
They start to work in IT, and they will prefer to continue using the same tools they are used too.
Some will have to use Microsoft tools. Meh. (That won't pose any problem if the kids have learned to *use* a *computer*. If the kids have only monkey-learned where to click on a specific interface, they will be lost anyway, given the trends to completely change the UI every so many years - see introduction of ribbons in Office 2007)
The rest will use the copylefted tools. Which happen to be open, freely available and can be modified. The IT sector can turn this tools into their very own business. They don't depend on buying a foreign product, they can control the product themselves (as long as they play OK by the corresponding license). They don't need to hope that they'll be a significant enough market so the maker will pay attention to their needs, they can freely adapt the product to their needs.
You have grown an IT sector which is self sufficient, because it is built on technology it has the legal right to control itself.
One solution is hooking the kids on a foreign product, the other is teaching them to be self-reliant.
One solution is helping them, the other is not.
Its a question of empowering vs. building compatible drool-drones.
Microsoft isn't the optimal solution.
And that's only about the advantage of copyleft vs. corporate software. Now there's the whole cultural difference story, with open source OS being much better geared at stimulating development and the unix philosophy - small separate single-task components - is much easier to improve, hack around etc.. than the huge honking suits found traditionally on Windows.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Umm......The whole point around the OLPC was that not only could kids learn things like the three R's from them,but as they got older they could tinker around inside the OS and get it to do new things and learn about tech at the same time. Now all you have is a REALLY slow Windows laptop.And let us not forget that while there are ways to cut down on a Linux install from using the HDD,Windows just LOVES to swap. And with these being underpowered and RAM straved anyway I'm betting that XP thrashes the poor SSD to death pretty damned quick. Which of course leaves nothing but a dead Windows laptop.
That said,Negroponte seems to be determined to torpedo the thing anyway. If he would have sold them to the first world as well(and the give one/get one is NOT selling to the first world) he could have gotten the economies of scale on his side and lowered the price enough that every kid could afford one. Between his refusing to sell to the first world and then slowing it to a crawl with Windows(does he really think that MSFT won't pull the plug on his license deal if Intel says so? I mean they shot themselves in the foot with Vista just so Intel could sell some lousy integrated chips) he really seems to be slowly but surely killing the thing. Maybe whoever buys the designs when he goes under will sell the thing to the masses and we'll truly have "one laptop per child" but until then I'm predicting they are on a slow death march to oblivion. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
What learning tools are being shipped with WinXP on these laptops?
FTA:
Kids and their teachers in the country will use the laptops as part of efforts to introduce more technology into classrooms in Peru, including Microsoft's Student Innovation Suite of software, which includes Microsoft Office 2003 as well as Learning Essentials 1.0 for Microsoft Office.
Plus, there's also Clippy. It would indeed be a real shame if kids weren't exposed to this guy.
There are more problems with OLPC than Linux / Windows Holy wars.
Yes on one side there is Microsoft, who uses cash and influence to make sure that the OLPC can not become the "killer Linux appliance". While on the other side there are folks who love free software. Those who are caught up in the vision of giving kids a learning tool. Those who just plain HATE microsoft and saw it as a way of striking at the heart of the beast.
Beyond that, OLPC has no clue how to distribute laptops. Pretty much they are dropped off by the pallet full with a "here you go". They don't know where they are going. When a country buys them that is fine. The ones that are "donated"...that is another story. Do they end up on ebay or as netbooks for the warehouse persons family? Or do they actually get out to the villiages? There are not really going to be any sort of decent record keeping or accounting to tell us.
The kids and teachers are not properly trained. The goals of the program are scattered and unfocused. Is it a book reader? Where are the free books coming from? Is it a tool to teach programming and logical thinking? Where is the software for that on an XP system? Is it a tool to enable these kids to discover the Internet? Who has provided a net connection out in the villages for them?
I think the problem is that the way this project is turning out and is being administered it is a turd. It does not matter if you put ketchup (Linux) or mustard (Windows) on the turd. It is still a turd
Hopefully in 5 or 10 years someone will be able to dissect this mess and learn something from it. How to get laptops into the hands children in 3rd world nations and make them real learning tools.
vi +
Those kids are way ahead of my son. He just likes to make games using blender and python.
Indeed. KGill appears to be (hopefully unwittingly?) setting up a strawman argument here. The choice is *not* XP+OLPC (expensive) or nothing (cheapest), it's at least XP+OLPC (expensive) or Linux+OLPC (cheaper) or nothing (cheapest), with more possibilities conceivable. And if we're going by the Think Of The Children (TM) argument, it sure looks like Door #2 here with Linux on the machines would have allowed for more OLPCs going to more kids.
I'm not about evangelizing. I'm a pragmatist -- I'm interested in getting things done. And if the end goal is to get OLPCs into the hands of more kids, then Linux (or some other FOSS OS) is the way to go, simply in terms of cost.
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
Excellent point. Microsoft has two big selling points for their XO implementation:
What they quietly ignore is that:
Of course, Microsoft hasn't shipped anything yet (and won't for months), so we have no idea what learning tools will be on the laptops. We can expect at least a paint program, a word processor, a calculator, a web browser, and video/sound editing software -- which is not all that different from what OLPC is providing on Linux.
I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft also scores a few token deals with software publishers for old, well-known titles... Getting something like Carmen Sandiego or Mavis Beacon shipped on the laptops would be great publicity for them, much like SimCity was for OLPC. (And MS could ship a port of OLPC's Micropolis version of SimCity, if they wanted, since it's now open source -- although they probably won't, because of their apparent aversion to touching anything GPLed.)
The most significant educational advantage of the XP distributions may end up being a working version of Flash, which OLPC has apparently left to the individual countries to install on Linux, due to licensing concerns.
You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that Microsoft's mechanism is software based.
Microsoft is not the market leader in the desktop because of that silly little IE bundling nonsense nor are they the leader because the have the best O/S.
Microsoft is the market leader, because for nearly 20 years every single PC that came out of the factory had a Windows sticker on it (I'll knock Bill Gates for a lot of things - but respect for one of the greatest business strategies since Jesus). Most people do not know the difference between a PC (or a computer full stop for that matter) and Microsoft Windows. In fact, a large proportion think that 'PC' and 'Word' are synonyms.
Getting Schools to teach children that 'Microsoft = Computer' is the cheapest and most effective marketing tool they have. And once that mindset is in place, Microsoft has a much more powerful mechanism to stop you running non-Microsoft software on your PC.
Genesis 1:32 And God typed
I've personnally paid for an OLPC. I've paid to give a child somewhere a computer with free software, not microsoft crap. I've been ROBBED.
The C64, VIC20, PET etc all dropped you into a BASIC interpreter and encouraged you to learn how do do more than just play prewritten games.
Windows actively discourages you from doing this, even trying to view a list of system files is greeted with a "this is dangerous, dont do this" warning.
Any more than say a default Ubuntu installation and in general what newbies are told is "don't touch that, let the package manager handle it"? At any rate, learning to trash your machine isn't anywhere near the first thing you should learn. The biggest issue today is the distance between what you're doing and what professionals are doing. I built games on the C64 that came very close to professional, nobody's going to build a GTA clone at home. After a book like "Teach yourself [language] in 21 days" you know all the basics to write a boring business application but you can do very little that's "cool".
I'd start people off on something like say a scriptable game, no need to create all the tedious artwork and something you can immidiately show to other people. From there probably to something like some cartoony flash games, and only after that would I start suggesting a full programming language. It's not the language itself, it's that you have to create everything else around it. It's much more useful once you get to the point where you want to make useful utilities but that's usually quite a few steps down the road.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
The main problem I have noticed on the one I got is the front end. It is nearly useless. Any OS that puts a more user friendly front end on the OLPC will be more successful than Sugar.
No wonder the Commodore went bankrupt, if only they had used some kind of copy protection. Why didn't they think of something like AGA (Amiga Genuine Advantage), then they could force their loyal users to buy the software again and again?
Do some research, the OLPC foundation has put a huge amount of work into preventing misappropriation, hence the laptops are shipped bricked and must be activated at the final end to prevent theft by the palletful.
The record keeping is necessary as the activation is done directly by teachers.
Lack of training is a fair point, I agree, but there is progress being made here as well.
Of course windows will kill the project, but I wouldn't believe too much of the fud on the OLPC foundation, it is definitely an academic project (read: rough around the edges) but their ways of dealing with problems they are accused of being vulnerable to in the mass media are surprisingly effective and innovative. I don't know why the media hates them so much, probably because it doesn't have an apple on the back.
93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
With a few small changes, that could be applied to pretty much every aspect of the work of "Development Inc"! It's all like that, all over the world. Billions of dollars are wasted every year on this sort of nonsense.
The pay can be good for those of us who get sucked into working in it though! ;-)
As a peruvian, i have to say this is a real disgrace.
It's not about Linux vs. Microsoft, it's about spreading ignorance.
Here most (educated) people think that when you can't open a PowerPoint document, it's because one machine was a Pentium 4 and the other was a Core Duo.
Why? how could a rational being reach that conclusion? that's because when you buy a computer, you don't even ask for windows. it's an invisible part of the computer, so when they see different icons and menus (win2000 vs. XP, vs Vista), they think it's because one is newer, and the specs said "Pentium 4" or Core2, or wathever.
the ubiquity, monoculture of windows makes it totally invisible, because people think it's part of the computer, just as critical as the hard driver, or those other part they don't know what they do.
exposing people to a different system, opens minds in a way that no course can. suddenly they find that a 'start' menu isn't the only way, and e-mail doesn't mean hotmail. and internet isn't the blue 'e', and.... that crashes, viruses and spyware aren't intrinsic parts of computing experience
-Kz-
Is it a book reader? Where are the free books coming from?
It's not hard to find the beginnings of this. Look at wikibooks' WikiJunior for example. There are a number of other online sites with downloadable childrens' books. There seems to be more in Spanish than English, but that may just be a result of where I looked.
One mistake is in thinking that the OLPC project has to supply the books. It's primary design is a network access tool, not as a standalone package. They do supply things like packaged subsets of wikipedia in several languages, with content aimed at younger readers. I recently saw a reference to a 300-MB (compressed) Spanish subset, designed to be loaded into an OLPC central server for use by all the children within range. But again, OLPC doesn't build these; it just works with the local educators to select and package the subsets (and the wikipedia crowd builds all the content).
The OLPC also comes with a browser that brings up the main google page in the local language by default. This is part of the design. The OLPC was designed to primarily provide network access, and the important tools are the ones that help the children find information on the network. Building the content in various languages is Someone Else's Job. Presumably this is mostly the educators, but with network access, anyone (who knows the language) can provide material for the kids.
(And right now they're looking for people who can translate to languages like Quechua and Aymara. So if that's you, get in touch with them. ;-)
One thing I'd worry about would be whether Microsoft will follow such precedents, or whether their UI will try hard to steer the kids in the direction of commercial sites. It wouldn't be very difficult to build in knowledge of the freely-accessible sites, and intercede with suggestions that the kids might want to look at other sites first. Remember that Microsoft is a for-profit corporation, and their software will be much like children's TV shows, primarily a marketing tool and only incidentally educational.
It'll also be interesting to see how Microsoft's DRM software works on the OLPC. That could be a good tool for preventing access to public-domain or other free reading material.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
The article says that software is for the "classroom", not the OLPC. I'm nearly positive that MS Office 2003 won't be usable on the laptop, and I'd bet money that the "Student Innovation Suite" won't either.
http://www.mhall119.com
Project Gutenberg :)
Negroponte and his type will never learn that you can not put anything out which can be interpreted as a threat to Microsoft AND tell them who you are selling or giving the products to.
They don't even know that this Windows-on-the-XO is all a plan to terminate the project. To run them out of funds and essentially render them insignificant. Do you really think Microsoft wanted to help the project and spread Windows while at the same time taking them over a year to get Windows XP running on the XO? It reminds me of how the developer and business community kept asking Microsoft for JDBC drivers for MS SQL Server. 3rd party options were available but you know how adverse many businesses are non-Microsoft software. Well Microsoft finally conceeded and said they'd provide a JDBC driver but it was going to take them 18 months to fully test it and release it. That's right, a JDBC driver taking 1.5 years for Microsoft to ship. This is what Microsoft is doing to the OLPC. Playing their game of killing them in slow motion.
Can you imagine if the Speak-N-Spell had Linux running on it how that product would end up once Microsoft used their influence to get the impression Windows was required for it to be acceptable? The OLPC was originally designed as a special purpose teaching tool with custom software to make it as easy to use as an appliance for these tasks. Now, it has turned into a tool to teach the way Microsoft experts decided Microsoft software should be launched and found on a computer over 15 years ago. And a very slow one at that.
Microsoft gets a point for fooling some highly educated people. The OLPC gets -1 point for being suckered into this track of putting Windows on the XO. Bender and others get 5 points for seeing this and trying to save what real work can be saved(Sugar) and 10 points go to anyone who takes the hardware design of the XO, ports it to ARM and comes out with what I would consider a better product.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
What learning tools are being shipped with WinXP on these laptops?
Haven't RT'd the F'n Article yet, but several smarmy answers come to mind:
A pdf of a "Windows Troubleshooting decision Tree?". (hey, offshoring isn't confined to just one shore, now, is it?)
Ubuntu cd's/iso's that should have been there?
Asus disks with cracked/pirated learning software?
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
If the kids get Sugar it doesn't matter nearly as much which OS is running. That's where most of the learning happens.
IMHO, the XO has at least two things relevant to education in developing countries that previous devices did not:
- a learning-oriented environment (Sugar), and
- physical usability by children in the poorest areas of the planet -- through extreme power saving, and child-friendly yet "child-proof" design
Right now both of those features depend pretty heavily on Linux. I'm not sure if XP will ever be updated to get all the powersaving potential of the XO (which isn't needed in many use cases). But I'd like to see Sugar ported to run on any OS.
Agreed on the first world part. There are 100s if not 1000s of US schools who would love this sort of thing. I should know as I have been setting up LTSP machines in school districts all over the US. XO for the kids that interfaced with LTSP would be an awsome combination.
Yeah; I was hoping someone would mention them. There are a few others around, too.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
It's called a troll.
I find troll in this discussion to be among the BETTER participants because the most prominent group -- Microsoft astroturfers -- stinks to high heavens.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
I (teapot) happen to be the maintainer of Ubuntu on XO.
At least people on OLPC News forum recognize my self-proclaimed status as such.
No one from OLPC project, Peru, or any organization involved in "Give One Get One" program ever contacted me about Ubuntu customization for XO in general, G1G1 donors or any deployment. Crappy adaptation of XP for XO that barely works, has no educational value, and seem to be nothing but Microsoft's own initiative, gets all the coverage. Far superior system that provides the same "general-purpose" functionality, far superior performance, reliability and security is completely ignored. Slashdot users make comments assuming Ubuntu for XO to be some kind of hypothetical possibility despite the fact that it existed since the beginning of this year, and my adaptation remains the current version since May (when it was built based on then-released Hardy).
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Oh, excellent! Good work; someone should get the word out.
I won't make use of it myself (my XO runs Sugar because I'm not a student and I bought the laptop partially because of its default OS installation). But if I hear anyone expressing frustration about Sugar's "out-there"-ness, I'll point them in the direction of the Ubuntu distro.
Take care,
Mark
There is a solution...