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A Windows CE Shell For Netbooks
nerdyH writes "Netbooks such as the Acer Aspire One and Lenovo Ideapad S9 usually ship with SSD storage and the Linux operating system in low-end configurations, or else with hard drives and Windows XP Home at the higher end of the market. Therefore, customers who want a "Windows experience" have no choice but to shell out for extra RAM and disk storage, potentially impacting battery life. Perhaps not for long. Quarta Mobile says its open-source (yes, open source) "MID-Shell for Windows Embedded CE 6.0" provides a Microsoft-based alternative to Linux for low-end devices with SSDs (solid state disks)."
If you want Windows, don't you want "real" Windows, to run all the programs you're accustomed to? Windows CE is the suck.
Screw that, I want linux on the high end. That's right, I want the best hardware you got, and I want it with linux. capice?
Say good by to what little Karma you had..
Why yes, I want a WINDOWS experience. It will involve bending shoes together. Or something.
What on earth? Windows CE is a fabulous example of software that sells in magazines and looks good on feature lists but basically doesn't bloody work. There's a reason the accursed iPhone is so popular, and especially so with anyone who's suffered a WinCE phone and done the wince of WinCE.
http://rocknerd.co.uk
Whats the point of CE when you have limited amount of useful applications for it. You get a netbook to limit the stuff you have to carry around, not to limit the number of things you can do with it.
The reason existing netbooks (doesn't whoever bought Psion own that trademark) suck so much is that they're using bloated x86 chips from a company that doesn't understand the mobile market. Put a Cortex A8 SoC in them and we'll see some real battery life from the form factor. CE gives manufacturers a 'safe' operating system to put on them, and the rest of us can replace it with something more sensible afterwards.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
2008 could be the year of Windows on the net-top!
Not all life is cyber. Extra Income
This would be a great idea. I have a Viewsonic ViewPad SuperPDA from about eight years ago. It's one of the first tablet form-factor PC's and it was powered by CE. Resistive 800x600 touchscreen with USB host, PCMCIA, CompactFlash, integrated sound, VGA-out adapter. I have a wireless network card in there and I can use a USB keyboard along with the stylus for mouse input and it's really nice. What makes me mad about my device is no option to upgrade that I can figure out/hack. I would love to install the latest version and get .NET Compact Framework support. Writing native CE apps in VB or C is not to my liking! I can install many CE apps, but not Windows Mobile (which is a layer over CE), and nothing for .NET. Its built-in web browser is pretty good for its time (though it needs updating pretty bad now), and the Microsoft Word (lite) works well.
Bottom line: if I could get a modern piece of hardware running CE I would. It's cheaper, and much more stable. I'd love to see $150 netbooks made possible this way -- especially since my target functionality is rich text editing, web browsing, and remote desktop support -- all possible on these devices.
-Arian
From my smartphone experiences, there isn't even a decent web browser for the WinCE platform. Opera sucks slightly less than IE mobile. About half the websites I tried to use functioned correctly. Fahgeddabout it
The Eee, surely the first netbook anyone would look at, ships with an SSD and Windows in what is probably the most popular of the configurations. It's true that the barrel-scraping lowest-end 256MB configurations some manufacturers offer (see the Aspire One or the Mini-Note) are restricted to Linux only, but it's not like you're left wanting for 512MB XP machines. And based on available data, the disk storage options have a negligable effect on battery life anyway. Extra RAM certainly doesn't harm run time.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
you could run linux ;)
For the humor impaired I'm aware that vmware does not run on CE.
MP3 Search Engine
With the stats listed for CE and such, and XP being know, where does XP Embedded fit into the mix of things? Atleast it runs real apps, but what's the footprint?
*Very* few windows apps you mean. Especially now since mainstream embedded windows is on embedded XP now.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
It's actually shared source licensed.
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6932977445.html
"The company has thus far declined to submit the license for approval by the Open Source Initiative as an open-source license."
Why cripple it any further with a crippled version of Windows?
I was going to reply suggesting something like an extended version of Windows XP Embedded when I noticed MS claims to be coming out with a new OS that seems like it may fit the bill well (assuming it doesn't end up bloated).
Personally I picked up a Linux Acer One and through Ubuntu (will probably switch to Gentoo now that I have a distcc build server set up) on it and am very pleased, but I can definitely understand how someone comfortable and familiar with Windows could want a net book with features like a solid state drive and not want Linux.
Sadly, PS/2 was yet another victim of USB, which doesn't care what you plug into it, the electrical slut.
Windows CE was developed from the ground up as a unique solution for embedded computing.
It is not Windows.
It is not even Win16 or Win32.
Windows CE is its own thing entirely.
The only thing Windows CE shares with Windows is source compatibility with most of the Win32 API.
Windows CE will make these miniature laptops shine.
I'm bothered that I didn't think of this before. /tmp or /mnt/? Feh. Embedded systems don't need them.
With all the good press that Linux gets by default, it is nowhere near an embedded OS. Those embedded systems have become more like full computers on account of Linux. Bootstrapping into initrd, ramdisks, yet-another-flash-filesystem, and symlinking everything into
I'm glad someone has taken the embedded system development kit and made a target system for these neat laptops.
Oh, and Windows CE also shares device driver APIs with Windows. Talk about ubuiquitous computing from a reliable source.
Kriston
everybody should know what this guy does around here.
Let's see - instead of using an OS that has tons of great software for it, has no licensing fees, and is quickly source-modifiable by the manufacturer, we can instead use an OS that has lots of crappy software for it, costs money, and takes several quarters for the maker to fix bugs. Hmmm, tough one... Also, what part of the "Windows experience" in WinCE is that valuable? Win32 apps don't work on it, so that's out. Can anyone name a good office suite for WinCE? What, is the Start button that awesome? Are WinCE clickable icons so much better than those under Linux UI's? Cmon. Really, as a long time Windows dev and an avid WinMo developer, I just don't see the value for netbook makers.
It does work. Same way a brick flies, but it does work. (Disclaimer: I'm a Windows CE developer by trade)
You're looking at the wrong market. Around CE 3.0 when SmartPhone came out, yeah. That completely sucked. Hardly worked at all.
Windows CE's market share is in industrial devices that need to talk to Windows desktops. And PDAs. That's why it sells. It's an extension of the MS monopoly into the embedded market space. If you need to get data from a widget to a Windows box, you use Windows CE. At least that's the sales pitch, anyways.
Back on topic, CE on a Netbook? Yeah - no thanks. It would be no different than a PDA. Just bulkier.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Just for interest for people who didn't know, if you started with a netbook with a hard disk and Linux ... you can install Virtual box and then run Windows or even Windows CE I suppose under that.
http://www.howtoforge.com/installing-virtualbox-2.0.0-on-ubuntu-8.04-desktop
No cost ... apart from the Windows and the Windows applications you might want to run.
A higher-performing and simpler option might be to install Wine. You wouldn't be guaranteed to able to install and run **EVERY** Windows application (especially applications that explicitly try to make sure they are being installed on "genuine Windows") ... but you should be able to run most Windows applications this way.
Wine is up to version 1.1.4 these days:
http://www.winehq.org/
It has fairly extensive compatibility ... except as I say for applications that deliberately try to self destruct if they suspect they are not running on "genuine" Windows.
I have even heard a rumour that there are some applications from a certain near-monopoly supplier that attempt to discover if the OS is running native or under a VM and will stop working if they see a VM. Now **THAT** is truly going to great lengths just to be difficult and to try to rip customers off.
> WHY?
Because Microsoft has nothing that plays in this space, and because of past design decisions, there's no way they can reduce the requirements on their current products to function on these devices.
The Microsoft development model has for many years depended heavily on computers getting faster, disk getting denser, memory getting memoryer. The low-power solid-state PC market came on the scene faster than an OS design cycle -- no time to prepare, nothing to do except concede that you're not a player, or blow the dust off off WinCE and try to make it work. Or convince manufacturers to increase hardware specs until they're like, you know, real laptops. At the expense of the very factors that make them so appealing in the first place -- price, size, weight, heat, battery life, carbon footprint.
To be fair, the hardware requirements for Linux has gotten steeper with time too, but at a much slower place, and for that and other reasons, Linux is much better positioned to compete in this space.
There's a couple ways I see this playing out. The majority of people who actually try the devices with Linux will be pleasantly surprised that the "experience" is not that much different from Winders for what they do, and will appreciate the long battery life, low heat, and low heft.
The people who get WinCE-powered devices with the expectation that they're running Windows, will rapidly run into issues and will blame it on the device. WinCE then becomes almost a disruptive technology, setting people's expectations that the devices are not usable unless they have enough guts to run "real" Windows.
What amazes me is that a vendor would allow this to happen. Putting WinCE on these devices is at best a short-term strategy. When people figure out that their applications won't run, they're going to be upset. Which would you rather have, a user who buys a device with OpenOffice already installed and figures out he can edit his existing documents just fine, or a user who buys a device and then discovers that Office XP won't install? Which one is going to be clogging up the support lines and leaving venomous reviews on Amazon?
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
They had this form factor of device already.... and running Windows CE. They called them Handheld PC Pros (the Handheld PC were small clamshells).
Guess what.... they sucked and they flopped. If I want an oversized PDA with an anemic buggy OS, I'll get an old NEC MobilePro 800 off of eBay for $40.
I had one for a while.... it ended up running NetBSD/hpcmips with a USB Zip drive attached with velcro. I got bored with it about 6 years ago.
CE really does suck hairy monkey nuts. I had some CE-based thin clients that worked well but that was about it. I've owned an iPaq, an HP320LX, a Sharp Mobilon, an NEC MobilePro, and an Everex Freestyle.
Each one I got frustrated and ended up either getting rid of it or it ended up running Linux or NetBSD. CE is NOT worth the effort. At all. I'll use an old Newton MP2000 before I ever buy a new WinCE device that there's no Linux port for.
The EEE PC is a HELL of a lot more functional and useful with Linux than WinCE. Why XP is even taken seriously on the EEE PC I'll never know.
Microsoft should stick to making Xboxes, IMHO.
Any decent screenshots? The one in the article is terrible.
...someone gave us an alternative to linux. Everywhere I look, sourceforge, slashdot, linux.com, its all I see, linux, linux, linux.
Because as has already been pointed out here, Windows CE blows. Yeah, it's got the Compact Framework, and I've written a number of apps for it. But dealing with the OS on a day in day out basis is enough to send one to therapy...
I want the best hardware you got, and I want it with linux. capice?
I tried it. It sucks.
Last time when I have tried to install Linux on my workstation (8 Harpertown cores x 3.2 GHz, 32 GB RAM, Quadro 4600, 2 x Raptors in RAID0) it has failed to boot its installer (kernel panic right after post).
All 3 different distros.
Slackware 11, SUSE 9.3, some desktop ubuntu.
I did not try RH, though (I don't like it, it's personal).
All 3 Linuses work just fine on 3-5 year old workstations (Pentium-4 class CPUs, 4GB RAM).
Oh no, it's twitter!
Here goes my karma!
Did they ban you from the BRLUG yet? I know they were talking about it - seems like pretty much everyone is sick of you ranting about M£ or M€ or whatever.
dumb enough to dirnk the Windoze kool-aid.
Does anyone else see the iorny in that statment? Anyone?
Twitter, nobody is doubting Microsoft's attempts to monopolize the operating system market, however you are accusing them of spreading properganda about the OLPC and iPhone. Come on, they are not that good at FUD.
The OLPC failed in the eyes of critics becuase
a) it didin't live up to $100 promises and
b) there were much better alternatives out there like the eeePC which runs a much better distro, and can also run more popular distro's i.e. Ubuntu (like I do) as well as allow Windows installs for those that *shock horror* are not interested in learning anything new!
The iPhone got a terrible reputation for reasons not related to Microsoft, for reasons that are actually true like
a) locking it into one carrier, discouraging competiton (the sins you seem to think Microsoft is the only commiter, and
b) Apple intentionally bricking phones cracked to run on different networks, in blatent intentional anti-competitive practices.
I must say when defending the iPhone I must point out your hypocricy considering most of OSX is closed source (only Darwin is open) and your heavy stance against DRM... can you say iTunes?
Epic fail!
P.S, I got a message for your mother Twitter (i'm banging her), she told me to tell you to go to your room.
It'll be the same guys installing IE4Linux.
Those sick, twisted guys.
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
Who, and I seriously mean who on earth would want to install/use windows CE in a market that is already dominated by Linux AND windows XP? Really, windows CE was always this thing that didn't work, and you want it to compete with XP?
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
Well, the point is to match the painful windows experience...
Web developers?
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
calling you names from a eeepc with the default linux install.. which impressed me btw.
i can open any office doc and see flash videos. not to mention code and compile my programs.
why would you want windows if the vendor is finally taking the trouble of making linux work on the hardware for you?
weren't all ask slashdot articles in the past about the exact oposite?
Why does everyone keep insisting on pushing CE? Any 'low end' x86 device these days is capable of running XPe. And XPe doesn't restrict your application pool to a minimal set of buggy, broken, poorly maintained, half-useful apps the way CE does. Just let it die already! Please, for the love of god let it die! (troll / flamebait / honest opinion from someone who's been forced to use CE for nigh on 10 years... take your pick and mod accordingly)
...to pay your $699 licensing fee you cock smoking twitter
--
That's right twitter, you have my attention!
Try Slackware, I've yet to see a box that can't run Slack. I have had AHCI issues with the NForce4 chipset, though and I had to hang around kernel 2.6.21.5 (only because fixing it meaning breaking iSCSI in the kernel - which was a deal breaker for my NAS box). Use the 2.6 huge kernel on install, it's got the kitchen sink and a bag of chips.
Then make sure to get your drivers right from NVidia (BTW, isn't the 9800GT one of the 'plagued' NVidia cards? I'd keep that thing cool if I were you) and you should be set. Head over to kernel.org and compile a bleeding edge kernel for your mobo, too. If you really like gnome, you'll be wanting to look in to dropline or freerock, as Slackware only ships with KDE, flux, xfce.
12.0 is very stable, 11.0 is generally good, and 10.2 is like a rock. If nothing else works, 10.2 with generic kernel modules will run on anything.
If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.
What moron would buy a computer with linux then pay extra to run CE on it instead?
Thats almost as stupid as 'upgrading' to vista.
Andy
The screenshot they have posted of their custom shell http://www.windowsfordevices.com/files/misc/quarta_midshell.jpg looks exactly like the default shell that comes with Windows CE! Smells like vaporware.
My Windows Mobile smart phone runs quite a few programs that you'd desire. It supports .Net (compact framework), so development isn't that different than desktop apps. I'm actually surprised that there aren't MORE Netbooks going the Windows Mobile route vs the XP route.
Well, if constructors opted for Windows CE, they would pick it because "Windows" is a recognised brand which would have some success due to its marketability.
BUT here lies your problem : people would flock to it because there's "windows" written on it. But then deception and outcry will follow, as the same people who picked it up because "Windows" is written on it, are the people who would want to use their stock Office, stock PhotoShop and whatever else stock-win32/full .NET application on it.
Windows CE and Windows NT/XP/etc... only share names. They are indeed similar, and as you say developers could easily port their application to it. But remember that average Joe-6-pack is stupidier than you, and will just want to run its usual Windows application because there's Windows written on it. .Net (compact framework) isn't compatible with 100% of .Net apps targeting the desktop. Joe-6-pack's expectation are going to be met with an epic fail.
Which wont work. WinCE for x86 isn't 100% Win32 compatible,
So device manufacturer can't market their device with a windows a-like.
*Either* they market their device that looks like desktop Windows on purpose with a real WinNT-derivative (either plain WinXP or XP embed) and Joe-6-pack will be able to run his usual Win32 apps on it as he expects from the look of the device.
*Or* they market a device that on purpose looks like something different and is marketed as "an embed" platform (Joe-6-pack doesn't expect his Photoshop to run on his *Pocket PC* phone, and won't expect it neither if the netbook doesn't have Windows written on it).
In that case, windows CE doesn't offer any special benefit over other platforms : .NET for WinCE, for example)
- yes, on one hand development is easier because it closer to WinXP. But lacks lots of application for that type of device (there are lot of smaller applications targetting phones. but no desktop application compiled for WinCE currently. There's a suite of Pocket Word, etc... but there are no full blown Office 2007
- but on the other hand, Linux already has lots of desktop applications ported to it which fit this platform (there's OpenOffice.org which runs nicely on those device and fits well the needs of an office suite on an eeePC to keep the same example. Ditto for all other applications you expect to find on a net book).
- Google Android could do the trick as well (it's still a Linux with a X11 interface. Most software for Linux can run on it too)
This situation is a nice example of :-P you'd need to "ssh -X") And last but not least, as it is opensource, a new CPU architecture is only a recompile away (and thus the ARM-vs-x86 respective monopolies that exist doesn't affect you), whether with closed source software you have to count on the willingness of 3rd party provider to recompile their so
- the disadvantage of a thing ("Windows") which is more a brand slapped on a group of different not closely related OSes (and where the schism in resource requirement has grown even wider between latest generation WinCe and latest generation Vista)
- when compared to Linux which scales nicely and smoothly from small embed platforms in switch/modem's firmware all the way up to huge super computing clusters with desktops and netbooks somewhere in between. all this with a modular design which easily allows integrator to swap components (exchange the GNU Toolchain with Busybox to spare ressources on smaller platforms, or exchange the full Xorg with lighter X11 implementation) while still being Linux and still allowing the same software (well, almost. there's no local X server inside a modem...
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Why do you think it's called WinCE?
Better get more lube... :x
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."