Slashdot Mirror


Drop-In Replacement For Exchange Now Open Source

Fjan11 writes "Over 150 man-years of work were added to the Open Source community today when Zarafa decided to put their successful Exchange server replacement under GPLv3. This is not just the typical mail-server-that-works-with-Outlook, it is the whole package — including 100% MAPI, web access, tasks, iCal and Activesync. (The native syncing works great with my iPhone!) Binaries and source are available for all major Linux distros."

434 comments

  1. Hell yeah by cromar · · Score: 5, Funny

    That's right, Microsoft: open source software can gun for you too, motherfuckers!

    1. Re:Hell yeah by LibertineR · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sure you can, but Zarafa aint no gun.

    2. Re:Hell yeah by darkpixel2k · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's right, Microsoft: open source software can gun for you too, motherfuckers!

      I'm sure Microsoft is trembling.
      The site is so hammered I it took about 4 minutes to load, and the first thing I noticed? Two colums for downloading. The first one says "AGPL3 Only" and the second says "incl. 3 users Outlook support".

      Common--you know that that means. "We open sourced part of our software to try and suck you in--but you'll really find it limited until you fork over slightly less that you would have with Microsoft Exchange."

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    3. Re:Hell yeah by mhall119 · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's exactly what they did: http://www.zarafa.com/content/versions

      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    4. Re:Hell yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      This looks like cripleware to me. The "open source" version is limited to 3 outlook clients. That doesn't sound very open!

      (posting as AC because karma system sux).

    5. Re:Hell yeah by wisty · · Score: 3, Funny

      Globally find and replace '3' with '9999999'. What could possibly go wrong?

    6. Re:Hell yeah by Svartalf · · Score: 2, Informative

      If the source IS available under the GPL, one can correct it and provide a much more capable version, no?

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    7. Re:Hell yeah by Dolda2000 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I don't see how they can do that. If the source is open, how could it possibly even be hard to remove that limit?

      That being said, though, I would guess that the greatest contribution isn't actually the program itself, but rather the fact that it lays open the protocols involved, so that other MAPI servers could be written. Maybe it could even be implemented as another protocol for Dovecot?

    8. Re:Hell yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is still competition...driving prices down...how is this bad again?

    9. Re:Hell yeah by jcjewell · · Score: 1

      Globally find and replace '3' with '9999999'. What could possibly go wrong?

      Yeah, no kidding! retry_count=9999999 is much better than retry_count=3

    10. Re:Hell yeah by mr_da3m0n · · Score: 1

      I'm sure Microsoft is trembling. Common--you know that that means. "We open sourced part of our software to try and suck you in--but you'll really find it limited until you fork over slightly less that you would have with Microsoft Exchange."

      Actually, you're the second person I see in here so far bringing up the price of exchange as a compelling reason to use an alternative (indirectly).

      It might be that the shop would like to keep a Unix-only shop in the server room, for various reasons. Could be hardware, could be vendor contracts, could be IT knowledge, could be software requirements where bringing in an extra Windows server would not be welcome, etc etc etc.

      There, even if slightly less than exchange in cost, it still is a relevant alternative.

    11. Re:Hell yeah by centuren · · Score: 1

      If they released the full source code, just wait for any enterprise distro to fork it and integrate it into their next release.

    12. Re:Hell yeah by miro+f · · Score: 5, Funny

      #define PI 9999999.14159265

      --
      being vague is almost as cool as doing that other thing...
    13. Re:Hell yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LMAO!

    14. Re:Hell yeah by Anpheus · · Score: 0

      You forgot to round up.

      #define PI 9999999.1415926599999995

      So, 9999999.14159266 is the correct rounding :)

    15. Re:Hell yeah by julesh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If the source IS available under the GPL, one can correct it and provide a much more capable version, no?

      Given my experience with past "open source exchange replacements" (e.g. OpenExchange, HP OpenMail) you need an MAPI driver as a plugin to Outlook to enable the advanced features, and that part usually is not open source.

    16. Re:Hell yeah by EvilRyry · · Score: 1

      MAPI is the native protocol for Outlook/Exchange. As a drop-in replacement to Exchange that supports MAPI, you shouldn't need a plug-in.

    17. Re:Hell yeah by darkpixel2k · · Score: 1

      If they released the full source code, just wait for any enterprise distro to fork it and integrate it into their next release.

      And the problem would be...?

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    18. Re:Hell yeah by darkpixel2k · · Score: 1

      Actually, you're the second person I see in here so far bringing up the price of exchange as a compelling reason to use an alternative (indirectly).

      My point is more along the lines of this:
      Some company makes a 'killer app' for linux, but it costs almost as much as the Windows alternative. Then when their sales are slow, they decide to 'open source' their application. They release an article (like this one) to Slashdot announcing their product is 'open source'. Everyone goes crazy, starts downloading, etc... Finally they either see the Fine Print or run into the limitation while playing around with the software--they are limited.

      The company 'Open Sourced' 99.5% of their product--they just didn't open source that .5% that actually makes their product worth downloading, and to top it off, they put some stupid arbitrary limit on it. 3 users? Common.

      That's not enough enough for me to perform tests at my smallest client. Maybe if they gave you 10 or 25--then they could hook the small businesses and then charge as the businesses grow.

      But whatever--it's their code, they can do what they want with it. I'm just sick of the lying articles about how the software has been open sourced when it really hasn't. The article should be titled "Drop-In Replacement For Exchange Now (Mostly) Open Source (But Not Usable For Any Production Work)"

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    19. Re:Hell yeah by omnichad · · Score: 1

      And let's hope that fork removes the 3 mailbox limit. Couldn't be that hard, could it?

    20. Re:Hell yeah by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Except yeah...the MAPI part IS a plugin. Theirs. And that part wasn't open-sourced. They just happen to provide free binaries with MAPI.

    21. Re:Hell yeah by julesh · · Score: 1

      MAPI is the native protocol for Outlook/Exchange.

      Reread that sentence. Look at what you wrote carefully.

      MAPI is not a protocol. MAPI is an API. Specifically, it's the API that's used to interface between Outlook and protocol drivers.

    22. Re:Hell yeah by Not+The+Real+Me · · Score: 1

      "...bringing up the price of exchange...It might be that the shop would like to keep a Unix-only shop in the server room..."

      In that case, I'd go with Kerio mail server http://www.kerio.com/kms_home.html It runs on Redhat, SUSE, Mac OSX, Win2k/XP/2k3/Vista, seems to be a drop in replacement for Exchange server (with better support for Mac clients) and for a 30 user workplace, costs about 33% less than the "open source" Zarafa. Kerio also comes with Spamassasin built-in and you can get a version with McAfee antivirus for chump change. I don't see where Zarafa has integrated anti-spam or anti-virus features.

      Now, if only I could convince the owner of the company to go with Kerio instead of M$ Exchange server. In the meantime, we're still running the Linux/sendmail/Dovecot combo with Outlook clients.

    23. Re:Hell yeah by giantweevil · · Score: 0

      Linux might actually be more compatible with Microsoft, oh noes!

      --
      Disregard the above.
    24. Re:Hell yeah by Zuato · · Score: 1

      Their prices are in Euros - once you get done converting that to US dollars a suitable replacement (Professional with 200 users) would cost my company approximately $8,400.

      For reference:
      http://www.zarafa.com/?q=en/content/prices
      http://www.zarafa.com/content/versions

      I can get Exchange 2007 and the additional 100 new CALS I need to be in compliance for less than $7,000.

      Doesn't seem like a good deal to me other than helping break the Microsoft monopoly in this segment. Sadly my corporate over lords won't see it that way and tell me to stick to Exchange since it is at least $1,400 cheaper in the US.

  2. Aren't there others like this? by jd · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I seem to remember ogo being a full replacement and that's been out for a while. Also, although you want to provide compatibility with Exchange, don't you want to provide additional capabilities so that Exchange systems are forced to upgrade to you, rather than the other way round? (Embrace-and-extend, but non-toxic.)

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    1. Re:Aren't there others like this? by gclef · · Score: 2, Informative

      Citadel also tries to be a full-featured e-mail/calendaring/task management/etc system.

    2. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 2, Insightful

      don't you want to provide additional capabilities so that Exchange systems are forced to upgrade to you,

      Actually you want to provide additional capacities so that going back to Exchange is a true downgrade.

      --
      "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    3. Re:Aren't there others like this? by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Well, I imagine that an open source alternative to Exchange would not have Exchange's arbitrary limitations (e.g. maximum size of mailboxes) and would allow you to fix bugs and add features as you see fit. Those things _should_ make the switch worthwhile to many companies. I've heard complaints about arbitrary limitations and things just not working right in more than one company.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    4. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Eric+Smith · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sure, but there's a lot of difference between offering a similar feature set, and being a drop-in replacement that is compatible with all the crufty MS protocols.

    5. Re:Aren't there others like this? by fishbowl · · Score: 5, Funny

      >[A]n open source alternative to Exchange would not have Exchange's arbitrary limitations

      Oops... if it's not bug-for-bug compatible, it's going to be a problem with some PHB.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    6. Re:Aren't there others like this? by VVelox · · Score: 1

      There are multiple other ones, but to date they all have very ugly source and/or are badly implemented. I am looking forward to see if this one is a break from it. /me does the Zimbra blows goats dance.

    7. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, although you want to provide compatibility with Exchange, don't you want to provide additional capabilities so that Exchange systems are forced to upgrade to you, rather than the other way round? (Embrace-and-extend, but non-toxic.)

      Well, given that the price of Exchange with 25 user licenses starts around $3,000, not including the price of windows, I don't think much embracing & extending is needed. Price will do it for you.

      (assuming this product is as good as advertised, which I doubt)

    8. Re:Aren't there others like this? by hairyfeet · · Score: 5, Informative

      Xandros with Scalix also works as a drop in,with the added bonus of being able to be either a member or a domain controller in an AD forest. Really nice if you need to support a mixed environment. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    9. Re:Aren't there others like this? by vawarayer · · Score: 1

      Real question is: 'why haven't we heard of it before?'

      Maybe i'm not good enough with Google, Freshmeat, and the like. I have been looking around for a decent Exchange-replacement for several months, and never encountered Zarafa before.

      Are they good enough or is it just another open-source project that's gonna die in the egg?

    10. Re:Aren't there others like this? by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Jesus H. Fucking Christ. 99.9999999% of all companies just want to buy a tool that works. They don't want to build the fucking thing. They don't even want to fix it. That's why they buy the support license. This whole 'we can customize the code if we want' is a huge stinking load of specious crap. Companies of any size BUY their software because they don't want to customize software they don't have to. Like office software. Customizing a huge billing system is one thing (if you are a big enough company to warrant doing that), but why would an insurance company, or a local widget maker, or a medical clinic want to become an email server programming company???? Get a grip. They'll go out and buy exchange or lotus notes or whatever because they just want the frickin tool. And if it is buggy so what? It works for the most part and they don't have hire programmers or keep programmers around to fix bugs that said programmers introduced when they screwed around with the source code. It's cheaper to pay for the licence for a year than to pay for an unneeded programmer for a year.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    11. Re:Aren't there others like this? by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 5, Funny

      OK ... I'm better now.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    12. Re:Aren't there others like this? by DittoBox · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As a user I understand that most of the proprietary crap that MS dishes out for protocols is indeed "cruft" (Most slashdotter's could shit better protocols in their sleep). I've experienced more bizarre behavior than I care to admit, but what are some technical or design examples that could be cited as to why most of their protocols (exchange in particular) are so bad? I know their implementation of IMAP is very poor, I think it has to do with various connection and sync commands not being fully or at all implemented which can cause all sorts of weirdness on the client end and lost mail on the server.

      --
      Good. Cheap. Fast. Pick Two.
    13. Re:Aren't there others like this? by mistermocha · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well, there are some of us who work at mom & pop software shops that do have a clatch of intelligent developers on site but don't have a huge budget to buy an email solution.... and we're a lot more than 0.0000001% of all companies.

    14. Re:Aren't there others like this? by jd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, project maintainers tend to be very lazy when it comes to things like Freshmeat, which is why I maintain something like 120 project records and semi-regularly update 50+ others that I've subscribed to. (I should be paid full-time by Sourceforge or someone for the level of work I put in. Yeah, right.) If project maintainers were, oh, a little more forthcoming and not hiding releases, we'd all be a damn sight better off. Google should be a good source, but the problem there is that it's so hard to search for anything where all your keywords are common words. There's no good, juicy, unambiguous keyword to use, and search engines just aren't any good at semantics. They're only useful for syntax-based searches. The FSF's software page is excellent for projects the FSF knows about and is associated with in some way (even if just as an umbrella or as a webpage host), but you'd not get much done if you only used software they linked to. A pity, but they can't do everything, though they do try to do exactly that. Sourceforge's search engine seems to turn up everything Sourceforge hosts, and there are a million and one Sourceforge-like sites these days. Getting information, therefore, depends massively on volunteers trawling every imaginable report, rumour and hint of Open Source and indexing it somewhere. And there just aren't anything like enough volunteers to make anything close to a dent in what's out there. Which is a real problem, as projects that nobody knows about WILL die. Even when something IS known about, if updates aren't announced in a meaningful way, it will also die. Likewise, if people don't contribute, the project will die. Or if the maintainer doesn't release early and often, the project will die. And even after all that, if it's not in any of the major distributions, there won't be a sustainable userbase or a large enough supply of bug reports and the project will die. In this case, I think most of the above apply.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    15. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, so instead of begging Microsoft for fixes which will never come, they can buy a support license from one of dozens of companies who can fix the problems for you.

      There's certainly the potential to make an Exchange clone with far fewer bugs, five-minute install and setup, with a TCO that's less than Exchange. I don't know if it's been done, or if it's going to happen anytime soon, but the possibility is there.

    16. Re:Aren't there others like this? by gbjbaanb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      there are a lot more copmpanies out there that barely know what a PC is. Software houses are a tiny minority compared to retailers, to name one. Think how many back office staff exist to serve them compare to the number of programmers. Then go to the next class of business, repeat a thousand times.

      I'd say 0.0000001% is a bit of an exaggeration, 0.1% is more like it.

    17. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Eric+Smith · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The MS protocols tend to be crufty because they are developed in secret, don't get any public review, and are allowed to evolve in a completely ad-hoc manner.

      That's not to say that all protocols developed by open processes are wonderful, but on average they seem to be better.

    18. Re:Aren't there others like this? by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The MS protocols are crufty because the direction of the design of them is left up to middle managers.

      That should explain it fully to anybody curious.

    19. Re:Aren't there others like this? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Jesus H. Fucking Christ. 99.9999999% of all companies just want to buy a tool that works.

      And now that there is an Exchange substitute they can finally have something that works!

      Couldn't resist, I'm still bitter from babysitting three old MS Excange installs from back when you couldn't even back the mail store up without stopping the whole creaking mass of "services" that is MS Exchange.

    20. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Metaphorically · · Score: 4, Funny

      Point of order: I'd like to believe that most slashdotters don't shit in their sleep. Or if they do, I'd like to never ever think about it again.

      --
      more of the same on Twitter.
    21. Re:Aren't there others like this? by vawarayer · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's a nice long explanatory answer... for the first question! ;). Do you have an answer for the 2nd?

      I might even add... do you have suggestions?

      I have already checked out a few of 'em (not necessarily OSS):

      ...of which many of them have a great potential, but I always end up having some trouble somewhere or find 'em not user-friendly/admin-friendly enough.

    22. Re:Aren't there others like this? by sweet_petunias_full_ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "...they can finally have something that works!"

      Hear, hear. And maybe they can finally have something that doesn't try to break protocol standards, introduce a non-interchangeable mail archival format, artificially create a need to have ten times as many server licenses as necessary... in short, businesses would do well to uh, swap it for something else.

      --
      You can't send a takedown notice to an already printed newspaper.
    23. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 1

      Jesus H. Fucking Christ. 99.9999999% of all companies just want to buy a tool that works. They don't want to build the fucking thing. They don't even want to fix it. That's why they buy the support license.

      Exactly, and having the source code, and the freedom to modify it, means that those 99.999...% of all companies can all buy the "support license" from whomever they want to.

      With proprietary software, the vendor has a monopoly on support, which might explain why the support is often very poor.

    24. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      there are a lot more copmpanies out there that barely know what a PC is. Software houses are a tiny minority compared to retailers, to name one. Think how many back office staff exist to serve them compare to the number of programmers. Then go to the next class of business, repeat a thousand times.

      So what? The number of individuals and organizations out there that are willing and able to write their code (or at least hack on someone else's) seems to be not only sustainable but growing. It must be, because I keep seeing new stuff pop up on Sourceforge, and it gets better every year. So why does it matter what kind of "tiny minority" it is?

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    25. Re:Aren't there others like this? by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ``Jesus H. Fucking Christ. 99.9999999% of all companies just want to buy a tool that works.''

      You are right about that (well, maybe not about the percentage, but the general point), but that doesn't contradict anything I said. They _would_ rather buy something that Just Works. They _would_ rather spend money on software licenses than spend more money on developing their own software. And all this makes perfect sense.

      ``They don't want to build the fucking thing. They don't even want to fix it. That's why they buy the support license. This whole 'we can customize the code if we want' is a huge stinking load of specious crap.''

      Now, I don't know where that comes from. Who said anything about having to "build the fucking thing"? Did you miss the part where Zarafa is called a "drop-in replacement for Exchange" and "binaries ... are available"? You don't have to build anything, and you don't have to fix anything. You seem to have confused what you _can_ do with what you _must_ do. Having to fix something is a Bad Thing. Being able to fix something is a Good Thing.

      The comparison is like this:

      On the one hand, you have Microsoft Exchange. There are various versions, each with their own bugs and limitations. If you need those bugs and limitations removed, you might be able to buy a different version, you might have to wait for a newer version to become available, or you might be simply out of luck. You pay for the software itself, and for client licenses - the more people use the software, the more you pay.

      On the other hand, there is Zarafa. There will be various versions, each with their own bugs and limitations. If you need those bugs and limitations removed, you might be able to obtain a different version, you could wait for a newer version to become available (possibly with a patch from some company in the same position as you), or you could remove the bugs and limitations yourself. You can get everything for free.

      Now, you tell me which seems to be the more attractive option.

      Finally, I would like to point out that open source software tends to get easy installation procedures and low maintenance cost once Linux distributions start packaging it. Also, if running a particular piece of software is too tedious for you, you can always get it hosted by someone else. There is Exchange server hosting, and I imagine there will be Zarafa server hosting, as well.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    26. Re:Aren't there others like this? by BruceCage · · Score: 1

      But on the other hand, a Forrester research report from September 2003 (available through ZDNet's Whitepapers if you have an account) stated:

      SOME FIRMS MODIFY OPEN SOURCE CODE; MOST DON'T
      Sixty-four percent of our experts say that they view source code; 40% modify source code (see Figure 4). Firms that modify source code are also likely to be bigger open source users -- they use almost four open source products on average, twice as many as those that don't view or modify code.

      And you seem to be forgetting the fact that opening up source code allows other software development companies (or individuals) to work on it.

      --
      Perfect is the enemy of done.
    27. Re:Aren't there others like this? by SpooForBrains · · Score: 1

      Yes, and that's why I, and people like me, exist. Instead of pouring a ton of money down the black hole of Microsoft, they can hire a good consultancy who can take an open source solution and actually make it fit their needs, instead of making their needs fit what Microsoft deigns to provide.

      --
      "The dew has clearly fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning"
    28. Re:Aren't there others like this? by jimicus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There are plenty, but most seem to miss the point of Exchange in some fashion.

      Point the First: Everything that you're likely to plug into Exchange must also work with whatever alternative or it isn't an Exchange alternative. That means things like Blackberries, other vendors' smartphones, seamless (yes seamless, not "install this plugin which sort-of works") Outlook integration, remote management of smartphones (including wiping them). Zimbra's pretty close here, but falls down on remote smartphone management and seamless Outlook integration.

      Point the Second (Scalix falls down here): Exchange is only a small proportion of the overall licensing costs. You've also got Active Directory (which implies a Windows Server infrastructure) and CALs for AD. There's not a lot of point in having AD without having your workstations on an AD domain, so you've got to factor in all the necessary licenses for this as well. If you demand I supply my own AD infrastructure and you price your product at [price for Exchange - 10%], I might as well just pay the extra 10% and eliminate the risk of being passed between vendors in a game of telephone tennis in the event of support issues.

      Point the Third: Whether you like it or not, the PHBs who like Exchange are often rather stuck in the Exchange way of thinking. I don't care how much better you think your solution is, if your argument is "it's cheaper but it's only better if you're prepared to accept a totally new way of thinking about groupware" then it's not better because the PHBs in question probably aren't. Citadel's a good example of this.

    29. Re:Aren't there others like this? by kitgerrits · · Score: 1

      From what I can tell, Exchange Replacements are going for exactly the SMB world, because they think an Exchange costs a lot of money and requires an expensive, high-power server.
      Over 4 years ago, I set up a Bynari mail server (Cyrus + Outlook plug-in), that required no special knowlegde, aside from clicking next-next-finish on a Linux Server.
      Exerything was done from a clean web-GUI and you could make it as simple or as complex as you wanted.
      The only thing you -had- to pay for was the Outlook plug-in, but for a few hundred dollars, you could get the complete mailserver platform as well (saving time in figuring out how to mesh Cyrus, OpenLDAP and Postfix).

      --
      "I was in love with a beautiful blonde once, dear. She drove me to drink. It's the one thing I am indebted to her for."
    30. Re:Aren't there others like this? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      And maybe they can finally have something that doesn't try to break protocol standards,

      Irrelevant if you're happy with the tool and don't give a damn about interoperability with other mail clients as long as all your staff can work and communicate with the outside world.

      introduce a non-interchangeable mail archival format,

      Irrelevant, a huge number of businesses are quite prepared to accept tying themselves to one vendor for a vital business function. If they weren't, there would have been none of this MS OOXML rubbish because it would never have come up in the first place.

      artificially create a need to have ten times as many server licenses as necessary...

      The fact that Exchange forces AD on you which really means you might as well have an AD domain which means more servers for redundancy because you're so fantastically fucked if you don't have them is an issue, but the smaller businesses will often start off with SBS (everything in one relatively cheap box) and work their way up from there. Larger businesses have, as often as not, already got such an infrastructure so there isn't a drastic cost difference.

    31. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, Zimbra.

    32. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      99.9999999% of all companies just want to buy a tool that works.

      I've told you a million times not to exaggerate.

    33. Re:Aren't there others like this? by bytesex · · Score: 1

      *cough* SMTP *cough*

      --
      Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
    34. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Scalix has nothing to do with opensource. Even though they claim to be open source, they aren't.

      Just look at their site:

      Scalix offers two user types: Standard and Premium Users:
      Standard users gain access to a subset of Scalix functionality including e-mail, personal calendar and contacts through Scalix Web Access and Novell Evolution (on Xandros or other Linux desktops) as well as e-mail access using POP/IMAP clients

      So standard users can't even share calendars, thats basic groupware stuff.

    35. Re:Aren't there others like this? by julesh · · Score: 2, Informative

      Xandros with Scalix also works as a drop in

      Except to get full features on Outlook, you need their MAPI Connector, which requires you to pay for "premium user" licenses.

    36. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Flammon · · Score: 1

      You are correct for commodity software but very wrong for industry specific and specialized software. You would be an idiot to buy non commodity software without the source.

    37. Re:Aren't there others like this? by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      I'd say 0.0000001% is a bit of an exaggeration, 0.1% is more like it.

      Which is not far off from Linux's penetration of the small-medium business desktop market.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    38. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And you think that exchange is admin friendly?

    39. Re:Aren't there others like this? by thehunger · · Score: 1

      There used to be PostPath, which also has 100% compatible, drop-in, reverse-engineered Exchange protocol support. Cisco decided to buy that company, as part of their overall 'presence' strategy. Like they just now announced they will aquire Jabber.

    40. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SMTP works pretty well - apart from the absence of any sort of security consideration, it enjoys many competing implementations, of which several can handle loads of hundreds of millions of messages a day. Moverover, it distributes well and is highly fault-tolerant. Some of the parts of the original specification (SEND, SAML) added little value in practice, but otherwise SMTP was a tersely but well specified simple mail transfer protocol, exactly as it says on the label.

      The problem with SMTP is its lack of security against forgery. This is a difficult problem that ultimately requires PKI or webs of trust or both).

      Only X.400 (post 1988) has really met this head on in terms of standardization for global inter-domain use, and there are very few full implementations (mainly just EAN, ISODE and ClearSwift), and very very little traffic in terms of messages per day.

      SMTP made trivial forgery easy; an open source library talking to an arbitrary (or even hypothetical) alternative message transport system would just as easily find its way into UCE applications.

      It is not even clear that PKI/WoT methods are very safe now given the prevalence of pwned end systems that record or otherwise force credentials from users.

      In other words, switching from SMTP to a more secure MTS would raise everyone's costs (implementation of good and bad clients and servers and the additional energy to do cryptographic AAA for real users and for botted hosts) but does not obviously eliminate the market for forged mass emailing.

      So, the problem is not just the absence of robust security in SMTP at a protocol design level; even such an MTP would be compromised by the failings of underlying protocols for authentication, authorization and accounting in at least one widely deployed commercial operating system.

    41. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Eric+Smith · · Score: 1

      SMTP is a great protocol compared to most of the Microsoft cruft.

    42. Re:Aren't there others like this? by hairyfeet · · Score: 2, Informative

      Which if you check the prices of licenses compared to Exchange is a WHOLE lot cheaper.(Disclaimer-I don't work for Xandros,I just enjoy the ease of use). Look,Xandros+Scalix isn't meant for Linux gurus that are the masters of the CLI game,it is designed for businesses that have primarily Windows admins and need something that just works,or for those that have to support a mixed environment.

      Thanks to a plugin you can manage your Xandros server from either your Windows server or your admin desktop,the Xandros XMC is so identical to the MMC that it takes almost no retraining at all to switch your Windows admins over,and with of 60 roles already to go with nice wizards it takes the CLI and guesswork out of setup and maintaining the server. I believe in the right tool for the job,and for the average SMB,or for those that don't have Linux admins on staff,Xandros takes a lot of the hair pulling out of switching. It even has both Xen and Vmware support built into the kernel so you can get virtual servers up and running in no time at all.

      They have a free 90 day trial on their website so if you have space for a VM or an old server sitting around unused why don't you give it a try and decide for yourself? That is always better than taking someone else's word for it anyway. And as always this is my 02c,YMMV

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    43. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Directrix1 · · Score: 1

      Buy some dev time. Same thing, but one is more flexible in what you are buying.

      --
      Occam's razor is the blind faith in the natural selection of least resistance and in universal oversimplification. -- EF
    44. Re:Aren't there others like this? by julesh · · Score: 1

      Which if you check the prices of licenses compared to Exchange is a WHOLE lot cheaper.(Disclaimer-I don't work for Xandros,I just enjoy the ease of use).

      Sure. But most businesses don't want to have the hassle of having to buy more MAPI Connector licenses every time they expand.

      When we get a new employee at my company, I like to be able to get everything I need from one or two suppliers. This means all software has to be either (a) completely mainstream, so my hardware supplier can supply it with a new PC, (b) site licensed, or (c) free (either sense of the word).

      Of course, there are cases where this cannot happen (specialist software requirements, like EDA tools, are a good example), but by following these guidelines I can reduce the amount of work needed to handle a new employee from an entire day of phoning around various suppliers to just a few hours.

    45. Re:Aren't there others like this? by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      " I know their implementation of IMAP is very poor, I think it has to do with various connection and sync commands not being fully or at all implemented which can cause all sorts of weirdness on the client end and lost mail on the server."

      IMAP implementation is indeed poor, but I bet it isn't related to "sync commands" nor any other engineering problem for that matter. It is an strategic decision: Outlook will only properly work against Exchange; Exchange will only offer its full functionality to Outlook. Lock in strategies anyone?

    46. Re:Aren't there others like this? by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Xandros+Scalix isn't meant for Linux gurus that are the masters of the CLI game,it is designed for businesses that have primarily Windows admins and need something that just works"

      Then they are lost from square zero. "Windows admins that need something that just works" do already have a winning product, its name being Microsoft Exchange.

      In order for a "windows shop" to go somewhere else you not only have to offer a vastly superior product, but a vastly superior product that indeed looks like vastly superior product to the eyes of a "windows shop". Don't see Scalix being such a product.

    47. Re:Aren't there others like this? by MoeDrippins · · Score: 1

      (Most slashdotter's could shit better protocols in their sleep).

      I appreciate your confidence in me, being a /.er, but I'd like to hope that most of us don't shit ANYTHING in our sleep. Why would we want to start with a protocol?

      --
      Before you design for reuse, make sure to design it for use.
    48. Re:Aren't there others like this? by MoeDrippins · · Score: 1

      SNMP. The least "S" "P" out there that I've ever had to deal with, anyway.

      --
      Before you design for reuse, make sure to design it for use.
    49. Re:Aren't there others like this? by juniorkindergarten · · Score: 1

      Regarding management and wiping of smart phones, I have to assume you're talking about blackberrys. That's the job of a BES server. The BES server only talks to Exchange or Zimbra with the mobile connector to talk email, calanders etc., everything else regarding security/wiping/provisioning of the blackberry is handled by the BES server itself.
      Zimbra doen't even talk about managing smart phones, only that it supports certain models for email.

      --
      "Every security scheme that is based on secrets eventually fails." - Steve Jobs
    50. Re:Aren't there others like this? by catmistake · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the list!
      Double checking, true Exchange replacements need a few points:

      push email with calendaring integration and public folders

      I've looked at Zimbra, but I discarded the idea because it was missing some functionality of Exchange... but I can't memenber what.

      Point I'm asking is: do all these alternatives do push email and good calendaring integration?

    51. Re:Aren't there others like this? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Regarding management and wiping of smart phones, I have to assume you're talking about blackberrys. That's the job of a BES server. The BES server only talks to Exchange or Zimbra with the mobile connector to talk email, calanders etc., everything else regarding security/wiping/provisioning of the blackberry is handled by the BES server itself.
        Zimbra doen't even talk about managing smart phones, only that it supports certain models for email.

      Nope.

      Basically, Microsoft have (oh what a surprise) discovered that push email seems to be rather popular so with a compatible phone and Exchange 2007 (or 2003 with a patch) you can get it without BES. Rather confusingly, they've called this feature ActiveSync, same as the client software you install on your PC to work with the phone.

      Exchange allows you to remotely wipe the smartphone that you are accessing your account with. AFAIK, Zimbra doesn't support this feature. I can't find any mention of it in the forums of the module that Zafara are using to provide it, so I don't imagine their product supports it either.

    52. Re:Aren't there others like this? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Replying to myself here, but one thing I really don't understand:

      IMAP already supports a variant on push email. IDLE allows a client to keep a client running and receive notification when an email is received. Yet virtually no popular smartphone supports this. Not Windows Mobile, not BES, not the iPhone (unless you're connecting to "selected" IMAP accounts).

      It's completely barking mad - a perfectly good standard to solve the problem already exists and no bugger supports it.

    53. Re:Aren't there others like this? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      No viruses,spyware,and a lot harder to hack sounds like vastly superior to me. Never underestimate the fear of data theft. Companies see big losses can seriously hurt their bottom line,just look at TJmax.

      So while free is nice,and I am often trying new distros just to see how they are,I always come back to Xandros. And if you need something that just works out of the box with no fussing or CLI,then Xandros is the way to go. It plays nice with AD,it plays nice with login scripts,and the desktop(Xandros Business) even has a "Behave like Windows" button that makes all the keyboard shortcuts and context menus behave like XP. But like I said,they have free trials for both the server and desktop. Why not fire up a VM and give them a go? If you need a drop in replacement for Winserver+Exchange or Windows desktop it is really nice and easy to use. And if you don't like it all it cost you was a little time. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    54. Re:Aren't there others like this? by sweet_petunias_full_ · · Score: 1

      "Irrelevant if you're happy with the tool..."

      But this is one tool that doesn't work quite so well for everyone. I would compare Exchange servers to musical chairs in terms of reliability.

      Money is also relevant, perhaps more than ever. Some businesses would rather stay afloat than pay someone else for licenses they never needed. If the level of scrutiny includes not using AC in the server room and risking equipment damage then it also means cutting licensing costs wherever possible and risking the ire of a monopoly gorilla.

      "Irrelevant, a huge number of businesses are quite prepared to accept tying themselves to one vendor for a vital business function"

      Change "are" to "were" and you're getting closer to the truth. It's a learning process for these businesses and they're starting to find out that single-vendor sourcing is criticized in business school for good reason.

      "...Larger businesses have, as often as not, already got such an infrastructure so there isn't a drastic cost difference."

      That doesn't mean they like paying X times the licensing cost either. And you know they must be shitting bricks right now about having all of their huge infrastructure tied to a single vendor, who can, even as they go down in flames, dictate any terms they want to try to stay afloat themselves.

      In short, you may wish all of this were irrelevant but a sound business decision must include consideration of alternate sourcing, employee productivity and cost-cutting possibilities.

      --
      You can't send a takedown notice to an already printed newspaper.
    55. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Eric+Smith · · Score: 1

      SNMP. The least "S" "P" out there that I've ever had to deal with, anyway.

      You're lucky then. There are other protocols that are FAR more complex than SMTP. Q.931 comes to mind, especially when considering how it is actually implemented and how various implementations interoperate (or fail to interoperate).

      My UID isn't prime. Its factors are, though.

      There are sixteen positive integers that are factors of your UID, and of those, only four are prime.

    56. Re:Aren't there others like this? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      In short, you may wish all of this were irrelevant but a sound business decision must include consideration of alternate sourcing, employee productivity and cost-cutting possibilities.

      Granted, however a sound business decision in this case is no mean feat.

      I'll assume for the sake of argument that I'm considering this from the point of view of a business that doesn't have any form of groupware solution.

      On the one hand you've got Exchange. Expensive, but very difficult to match, feature-wise.

      On the other hand, you've got Zafara, Zimbra, Citadel, OpenGroupware et al. All of them perfectly competent products in their own way, and for the most part quite a bit cheaper. But it's value to the business relative to cost that's important, not necessarily raw cost.

      At this current moment in time, Exchange still has a few major things in its favour:

      • It's "the one everyone else uses". Therefore it's easy enough to find staff who know it, both from an admin and a usage perspective.
      • It's well supported by other tools you might want to buy such as CRM.
      • It's rather less likely that Microsoft are going to go out of business than (insert name of other groupware provider here).
    57. Re:Aren't there others like this? by MoeDrippins · · Score: 1

      SNMP. The least "S" "P" out there that I've ever had to deal with, anyway.

      You're lucky then. There are other protocols that are FAR more complex than SMTP.

      Perhaps I am, but I said SNMP, not SMTP.

      --
      Before you design for reuse, make sure to design it for use.
    58. Re:Aren't there others like this? by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "No viruses,spyware,and a lot harder to hack sounds like vastly superior to me."

      What do you mean? I do use exclusively Linux from quite a lot of years and my inbox is still full of viruses and spyware. The fact that they don't affect me doesn't mean they are not coming in; and since you talked about a "windows shop", I'll bet clients are Windows-based, and being so, you cannot go without antivirus and antispyware, both server and client-side, no matter if you are using Exchange or Scalix or whatever.

      And about "a lot harder to hack", that I'd have to see with my own eyes. It's quite a lot of years that Bellovin wisely said that the thoughest platform is the one you are most experienced with, and on a "windows shop" that means... Windows.

      "And if you need something that just works out of the box with no fussing or CLI,then Xandros is the way to go."

      And Windows is much better if that's your consideration. Not only that, but it's Windows the one that stablish the mark regarding what's "not fussing or CLI"... specially on a "windows shop".

      "It plays nice with AD, it plays nice with login scripts,and the desktop(Xandros Business) even has a "Behave like Windows" button"

      Not better than native windows, and windows behave like Windows without the need of any button.

      "If you need a drop in replacement for Winserver+Exchange"

      And, again, that's the very failure of their bussiness case: nobody needs a "Winserver+Exchange" replacement, when they can get "the original" almost for peanuts (locally-wise). And, hey!, you'll never get fired by choosing Microsoft (specially in an already "windows shop").

    59. Re:Aren't there others like this? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      While your points are valid,you don't have to worry about things like slammer or code red on Xandros. And Xandros plays nice with several antivirus as well as having ClamAV built in with a nice wizard that lets you scan and filter attachments and malware for email. But like I said,Xandros isn't for everybody.

      If you have a guy that really knows his way around Linux CLI,you don't need it. Likewise if you have a real Windows guru who really knows how to lock it down. Unfortunately a lot of companies,especially SMBs,have some guy that "kinda sorta" knows Winserver or who scraped through a tech college by memorizing and when it comes to securing a running server or enforcing good security policies are sorely lacking. So in those cases Xandros gives them an easy way to switch a server to Linux without having to hire a guru or pay for extensive retraining. And the Xandros wizards make it really easy to add and activate a new server role when needed.

      And finally we are talking about SMBs and medium businesses here. I have been into and done contract for many an SMB and there is a great majority of users that simply don't need Windows,same with the servers. I'd say in the average SMB you are talking as high as 60-75% that could do their job fine with nothing more than MSOffice. And on the server side they are serving files,running DHCP,performing backups,and other very basic roles. Why risk a virus or malware infection exposing your customer's data and your business to unnecessary risk if you don't have to? But as always this is my 02c,YMMV

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    60. Re:Aren't there others like this? by vawarayer · · Score: 1

      And you think that exchange is admin friendly?

      No. I would have hoped that the OSS community knew better.

    61. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Eric+Smith · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I wasn't paying close enough attention. Anyhow, I did some maintenance on SNMP code in a router back in the early 1990s, and added a few MIBs, and the protocol didn't seem that complicated. The biggest problem I had with it was that the MIB veriables didn't match the actual router state variables very well.

    62. Re:Aren't there others like this? by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "you don't have to worry about things like slammer or code red on Xandros."

      I didn't have to worry about slammer on Windows, either back when I was sysadmining Microsoft systems (I'm not one of those that leave a SQL server wide open to the Internet, neither on Windows nor Linux) and, while code red was indeed and issue on Windows, so was Ramen on Red Hat (I indeed show Ramen-infected boxes back in the day due to sloppy practices just as I saw slammer or code red -I already stated my point: if Linux is a "minor" system in your shop and it is opened to the Internet, as I expect a mail server to be, it will be pwned).

      "If you have a guy that really knows his way around Linux CLI,you don't need it."

      The point is that even with the Linux guru in place, there is no good solution for groupware that can compete against Exchange functionally wise; not at least one soundedly engineered.

      "Unfortunately a lot of companies,especially SMBs,have some guy that "kinda sorta" knows Winserver [...] and when it comes to securing a running server or enforcing good security policies are sorely lacking."

      And that's the kind of guy that is most able to wreak havoc with a Linux server: Linux expects more than Windows from the chair side (it can offer more to that expert, but I don't think that's the point in case).

      "the Xandros wizards make it really easy to add and activate a new server role when needed."

      And again to square one. That's trying to fight Windows on its own grounds. SMB offers no less easy wizards to activate the box that *seem* to do the job. That, and the fact of Windows being Windows makes sure to win that battle.

      "So in those cases Xandros gives them an easy way to switch a server to Linux [...] many an SMB and there is a great majority of users that simply don't need Windows,same with the servers."

      That I will admit (while in true, quite a lot SMBs are tied to Windows, not because the OS by itself, but because those Visual Basic niche applications they depend upon), but I don't see it being the point: that they don't need windows, doesn't mean they want or need to go away from Windows.

      "Why risk a virus or malware infection exposing your customer's data and your business to unnecessary risk"

      But then, as I already stated, you are not talking about Windows server-side, but client-side: you won't get out the risk of malware by moving your servers, but by moving your servers *and* your clients.

      Anyway, good luck to Xandros and any other initiative that make people more aware that there are other ways to professional SMB IT.

    63. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're certainly exaggerating. They are called Program Managers but they don't qualify as middle managers.

    64. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Architect_sasyr · · Score: 1

      It's admin friendly if that's what you've been trained on or are expected to use every day. I've tried Zimbra and Zarafa, I've build Postfix+OpenLDAP+Dovecot or CyrusIMAP solutions and I've implemented Lotus Notes servers and all of them have issues just in implementation. At least with Exchange I can rig up a copy of Thunderbird or Entourage or Outlook and it just works. Tracking messages is easier in exchange's console than it is grepping /var/log/maillog and don't get me started on the crap that is Lotus.

      I suppose the big thing I am looking for is the thing I always look for in OSS: I want to have a base FreeBSD or Debian install, provide it with a domain, some secondary domains, DNS, IP, mail directory, outgoing SMTP service and potentially AntiVirus/Spam and everything *just works*.

      Actually thank god for Open Source, now I've got a new project. But exchange is still the easiest crap I've found to manage, and I hate it so much.

      --
      Me failed English...
      FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
    65. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All the spittle removed from your screen?

    66. Re:Aren't there others like this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think anyone else has mentioned this but I use Kerio - cheap, easy to administer, really easy migration route from Exchange. It does need a plugin to work fully with Outlook but other than that it is perfect. Windows, Mac and Linux servers are available too.

      I've no affiliation with the company other than a satisfied customer.

  3. Hm, if this works as advertised by pembo13 · · Score: 5, Informative

    They better start hiring support personnel, because there will likely be profits to be had with service contracts. Maybe even a Redhat buyout/partnership

    Over the last few months, I've been forced to use Exchange/Outlook a lot, and for the life of me I don't get the big deal. But I know that people consider it a big deal, so I wish this company the best, and fair

    amount of profit.

    --
    "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    1. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Over the last few months, I've been forced to use Exchange/Outlook a lot, and for the life of me I don't get the big deal.

      I don't think it is a very big deal. I've supported Exchange servers in companies of various size, and it's really not doing anything astoundingly complicated, and what it does it doesn't do all that well. But still it does a bunch of things that other solutions haven't done an even worse job at, and does them all together. Things like "I can send a meeting invitation to my boss and his assistant can check his mail, accept his invitation, and reply on his behalf without actually logging in as him."

      I know, it doesn't sound like that sort of thing would be all that important, and it's not even clear all the time that it makes a lot of sense, but there are companies that run on this sort of procedure. So there are a bunch of random things like shared calendars and push-email to phones that people don't want to live without, and unless you can provide a seamless replacement, you're stuck with Exchange.

      I, for one, am eager to see a suitable Exchange alternative. I have a real love/hate relationship with Exchange. There are some options out there, but none of the options I've tried have worked out.

    2. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by xouumalperxe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I know, it doesn't sound like that sort of thing would be all that important, and it's not even clear all the time that it makes a lot of sense, but there are companies that run on this sort of procedure.

      Hell, I read what you described and thought "damn, that's a really good idea, hope it's also a well thought out and implemented feature". The idea that I can easily give you permission to act on my behalf is probably the single best way to kill account promiscuity. Plus the example you gave is also a damned practical one too, and a good way to prove that this is a feature, and not a solution looking for a problem.

      So there are a bunch of random things like shared calendars and push-email to phones that people don't want to live without, and unless you can provide a seamless replacement, you're stuck with Exchange.

      In other news, when a piece of software is truly convenient, you use it, even if it's not perfect.

    3. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      Funny. I read that same comment and though "That's scary, from a security perspective."

      If others can act on your behalf without actually logging in as you, what proof is there that e-mails allegedly sent by you were actually sent by you? Or, if you'd rather look at it another way, how can you prove that you weren't the one who sent the e-mail/accepted the meeting/whatever? It completely destroys all accountability. (Yes, I know SMTP isn't authenticated and it is trivial to forge an e-mail address. You can still match up IP addresses in the headers, though).

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    4. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by noc007 · · Score: 5, Informative

      To answer your question, IMHO the big deal is collaboration, productivity, integration, and a lot of features "just work"*. I'd wager to say that the majority of medium to large companies use MS Office and MS Outlook as their productivity suite and e-mail client respectively of choice.

      Collaboration
      Setting up meeting requests are simple. I can easily see other people's calendars so I can pick the best time and I can even set a meeting location which will automatically reserve something like the meeting room for example. Meetings automatically get put on my calendar as tentative and I'll receive a notification in case I forget to accept the invitation. Updated meeting change my calendar as well without intervention.

      Productivity
      I can set reminders, flag e-mails for follow-ups, create folders to organize, create processing rules to eliminate common tasks. A lot of rules will run on the Exchange server without the need of a client running and I don't get unnecessary e-mails on my phone. Outlook maintains a constant connection with Exchange so e-mails are sent and received nearly instantly.

      Integration and crap just working
      Obviously most MS products can seamlessly integrate well with one another. In the latest version of Outlook I can preview a number of attachments within Outlook without actually opening them up in their designated app, thus a new window. I can set a folder to actually open up a webpage within Outlook to "Integrate" a webapp or just be sly on reading Slashdot.

      Phone integration really is a big one for me. Using a WM5, WM6, or iPhone with Exchange ActiveSync is almost the best thing since sliced bread. I remember the days of having a PDA and the PITA it was to do a hard-reset or get a new one. Even getting a new phone and having to manually enter in each contact sucked (I've been a CDMA whore for eight years). All my contacts are kept on Exchange and this allows me to reference and edit them via the phone or Outlook. Having to do a hard-reset or get a new WM phone is no big deal; a three minute sync with Exchange over the air gets me all my contacts back and access to my e-mail. The rare third party apps I use are kept on an SD card. Life is easy getting the execs and lusers up and running as well.

      Integration with Active Directory (LDAP) makes my life as an admin easier with GPOs and groups to divvy out permissions. And for some reason all this stuff works without much hassle.

      The bad
      Exchange and Outlook truly do have their faults. If I were to have my own company, I can't honestly say that I would run them. I wont get too far into the bad since I'm running out of time with the wife waiting on me. If I were to have my own company, I can't honestly say that I would run them. Exchange works great with communication within itself and other Exchange servers. It does a decent job at SMTP transmissions most of the time. The big headache I have right now stems from a tech at MS telling me that "the RFCs for the SMTP protocol are merely suggestions." It's not like SMTP is overly complex; there are only a handful of commands that are exchanged within SMTP communication and Exchange even F's that up. And don't get me started with how Outlook is written in VB.

      I'm glad to see some open source Exchange clones out there. I'll eventually run one of them for my server at home just so I can keep my contacts synced when I leave my current company.

      To put things into perspective, I'm not a MS fanboy, but I'm not a MS hater either. I know their products well and is a part of my profession. My real passion is UNIX; specifically FreeBSD and OpenBSD. I try to introduce them where possible and applicable. Not to mention there is some stuff I can get done easier and faster with UNIX than I could with MS Windows. Other products out there are just as buggy and bloated as MS's; they just get more attention since they're more widely used.

      I hope that Zarafa and others continue to innovate and make a nice profit. Competition is good for innovation and lowering prices; both of which benefits us consumers.

      * Setup can be a RPITA. When something doesn't work as expected it can be an easy fix or cause suicide.

    5. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by gander666 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, the reality is that senior executives have always had personal assistants (used to be secretaries) who really opened all their mail, sorted it, and typed responses to the mundane, and took dictation for the serious ones.

      The executives typically have 100% trust in their admin's and this feature is absolutely necessary to the proper functioning of a senior management team. It may seem like a security risk, but in the cases that I am aware of, both users are aware of their status, and it rally operates like it did in the pen and paper days.

      --
      Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress ... but I repeat myself. - Mark T
    6. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by Martin+Blank · · Score: 4, Informative

      Messages sent by the assistant have a clear "Bob accepted on behalf of Alice" kind of structure. The logs also show that it was Bob accepting on behalf of Alice, IIRC. This is useful not only for the tracking perspective, but also so that the recipient knows that it was not necessarily directly handled by the person invited.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    7. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by funkatron · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Having others able to act on your behalf without using your login simplifies the process of proving that you did/didn't actually do something. The information about who logged in and did what on whose behalf can easily be logged. If, on the other hand, you have a system where your login has to be used to act on your behalf then the logs can only show your username no matter who actually used your account.

      --
      "Welcome to our world. We are the wasted youth. And we are the future too." Yes, I know these are stupid lyrics.
    8. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by Kaboom13 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You have to have an account specifically granted the privilege to do what he is describing, and you can place restrictions on what they can do. In his example, the secretary has the authority to say "my boss will attend this meeting", and that authority translates to his electronic calendar, the same way it would in real life. Sure his secretary could have a breakdown and screw up his schedule, but she could do that anyways just by not doing her job, and how many office environments have you seen where the secretary didn't frequently have physical access to her boss's machine while it was logged in?

    9. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by DragonWriter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If others can act on your behalf without actually logging in as you, what proof is there that e-mails allegedly sent by you were actually sent by you?

      If others can be delegated permissions to act on your behalf in specifically designated manners without logging in to your account, then, if the system logs who did what under what account, there will be accountability.

      OTOH, if others can't act on your behalf without logging in as you, and you have a business need them to act on your behalf, you have no choice but to give them your access credentials (dongle, password, whatever) and then there really is no accountability, and no control over the manner in which they can act on your behalf.

      So, rather than destroying accountability, supporting delegation enhances accountability (and security).

    10. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by mikiN · · Score: 4, Funny

      iPhone...Activesync...in one sentence? Related? Actually...working together?

      I'm sorry guys, but my head is spinning...gonna get me a Tylenol...quickly.
      Isn't it so that 'iPhone' goes with 'Apple' and 'Activesync' goes with Microsoft?

      Next they're going to tell me that you can run Windows XP on a MacBook. Oh well...

      --
      The Hacker's Guide To The Kernel: Don't panic()!
    11. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, having been inflicted with Lotus Notes, I gotta say Exchange and Outlook is a breath of fresh air...well, fresher air.

      If it can happen open source, so much the better.

    12. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by weharc · · Score: 1

      When this particular feature is used it shows up in Outlook. 'Sent by PHB-Assistant on behalf of PHB'

    13. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by Scaba · · Score: 2, Funny

      Indeed! There's been a recent string of incidents reported of rogue, black-hat office admins maliciously filling their bosses' calendars with meetings HE NEVER AUTHORIZED, yet was forced to appear at, even if no one else was there! And some execs were reprimanded - even dismissed - because they couldn't provide sufficient evidence that they were not the person who authorized such meetings. It chills the spine to think of how much executive time is being wasted through an easily patched exploit such as this, and of how many lives are thrown into chaos in the aftermath.

    14. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by thalassinos · · Score: 1
      In Lotus Notes you get a message with the sender looking like "User X on behalf of user Y".

      All such emails are logged and User Y is separately notified what User X has done.

      In a corporate network, Notes does not use SMTP for email exchange and it is not trivial to forge an email address.

      If you have the time and budget, you can create some truly amazing workflow applications with Lotus Notes or Exchange. From "Leave Application" apps to "Approve Bank Loan" apps, with full control of limits of authority and action logging.

      The trick is to make your application easy to maintain if (when) the structure of the company changes.

    15. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by OriginalArlen · · Score: 1

      And don't get me started with how Outlook is written in VB.

      Er, citation please?

      (Disclosure, I loathe Outlook and Exchange with a vengeance and will dance on their graves when MS finally gets borged by icanhascheezburger.com or whoever.) But I'm pretty certain Outlook's not written in VB.

      --

      Everything I needed to know about life, I learnt from Blake's Seven
    16. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

      Like I said: I don't know how well it's implemented, but under any sane implementation of such a scheme there'd be a "user xyz on behalf of user abc" bit on the header.

    17. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by mikiN · · Score: 1

      And don't get me started with how Outlook is written in VB.

      Er, citation please?

      Well, not all of it is written in Visual Basic, but parts of it (like the Microsoft Exchange Routing Wizard certainly are.

      I bet that others can find more tasty and embarrassing examples.

      --
      The Hacker's Guide To The Kernel: Don't panic()!
    18. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by mikiN · · Score: 1

      whoops! I mistook Exchange for Outlook, sorry :-)

      --
      The Hacker's Guide To The Kernel: Don't panic()!
    19. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If I were to have my own company, I can't honestly say that I would run them"

      Ho ho ho.

      "I'm not a MS fanboy..."

      Yes you are.

    20. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by julesh · · Score: 1

      They better start hiring support personnel, because there will likely be profits to be had with service contracts. Maybe even a Redhat buyout/partnership

      Doubt it. They're entering a crowded marketplace:

      SuSE Linux OpenExchange
      Open-xchange
      Scalix (formerly known as HP OpenMail)

      All of these implementations share one problem, which I believe this server also shares: they require an MAPI Connector module to be present in order to use them with Outlook, and that module is not free software. In fact, it is typically rather expensive.

    21. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming that Bob is Alice's assistant, Alice probably does not want the third party to realize that their communique was so mundane as to be "outsourced".

    22. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by davidsyes · · Score: 1

      IIRC, Eudora way back in 1997 permitted admins the ability to reply on behalf of the VPs where i used to work. IIRC, and i am not certain, but i think FirstClass did, too, and i used that back around 1993. Too bad FC faded away. Too bad hexedchange took root. I hope my memory is correct, and i hope i am helping to bust any related, undeserved or hijacked patents mshaft might have surreptitiously bought from the USPTO.

      --
      Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
    23. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Assuming that Bob is Alice's assistant, Alice probably does not want the third party to realize that their communique was so mundane as to be "outsourced"."

      Who told you that kind of server-managed information had to be delivered over the corporation borders?

      Alice knows indeed that Bob is her assistant as she knows that an answer on Alice's behalf can only come from either herself or from Bob. If somebody claims to have an answer "from Alice" is just a matter to go to the corporation server's log to see if it in fact came from either Alice's or Bob's account. You see, no difference from the pen-and-paper days.

    24. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by Allador · · Score: 1

      Its only scary from a security perspective if you arent fully aware of how it works.

      First, you can delegate precisely and only what you want. Want them to be able to look at your calendar, but not act on it? Easy. Want them to be able to manage your calendar, and respond to request, without having to know your login/password? Easy to setup. Want them to only know if you are busy/free at that time? Easy.

      The example you give (sending emails AS someone else) is something rarely used from a person-to-person basis, and there's no reason you HAVE to set anything up that way. It doesnt come configured that way by default, in any circumstances.

      But there are many valid use-cases to sending emails as someone else.

      For example, you have a general contact list for payroll, call it payroll@yourdomain.com. You want emails sent to that name to go to 5 people, and whomever responds, responds as payroll@yourdomain.com. In other words, the email shows payroll@ as the FROM address, and not the actual person.

      From the flip side, you only give a real person the ability to 'send as' another person when you really really want to, and then the security/logging implications are well understood.

      If you're worried about repudiation issues from your assistant answering emails or appointments for you, then dont get that person those privs. If you need to, but still want to double-check on them, then have your Exchange admin copy all messages to/from that person to a special box that only you have access to read. Or give you read access to that person's mailbox.

      In reality, the thing you describe as being worried about isnt a real worry in the real world. And you're never forced into that situation, its only if you want it, and then you are understanding of the costs/benefits.

      And in a real pinch, the Exchange admin can log the snot out of everything, and you can trace every freaking hop of every freaking message within the exchange organization, if you want, to see exactly who did what.

      Exchange is quite fantastically powerful in its security administration, rules, filters, etc etc. It's also a bit complicated as a result.

    25. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by Allador · · Score: 1

      None of the things you linked are part of either Exchange or Outlook.

      They are COM plugins to Outlook and Exchange to add extra functionality.

      Just because Exchange and Outlook expose COM interfaces doesnt mean either of them are written in VB.

    26. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      On the programs I have seen that allow this, it marks the Email-meeting request with an as or os followed by some sort of initials after the signature or on the email just like a secretary would do when signing the bosses name on something.

      This provides for the accountability even though there is that level of trust you mentioned. I don't use Exchange and outlook for this so I'm not sure how it works there. I assume it would be similar because of how sensitive this type of thing can be.

    27. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is this stupidity different or more efficient than CCing the invitation to the secretary and the secretary CCing the reply to the boss?

      Sheesh

    28. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Exactly. It's not an "exchange replacement"; it's a mail server with a MAPI plugin. There are dozens of them already. If I can check "Exchange Server" in Outlook's mail setup, it's an exchange replacement. To my knowledge, nobody does that, because M$ doesn't document the screwy protocol it uses.

      (Even if such a connector were released as OSS, it'd have to be built on windows which would be just as much of a mess.)

    29. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by somersault · · Score: 1

      Hmm, let's see.. only 2 people with access to an account. Really difficult to work out who has been screwing around with your email there. The secretary would lose her job for doing anything dumb without permission. The boss could of course blame stuff on the secretary, but if I had that type of boss I'd look for a different job anyway.. there needs to be trust and incentive to be reliable before you set up that kind of situation.

      The Exchange Server obviously logs all messages too but I've never had to deal with a situation where someone was accused of sending spurious emails or whatever. I think that in some cases the emails will say 'blah blah on behalf of whomever' anyway, unless the person has direct mailbox access.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    30. Re:Hm, if this works as advertised by somersault · · Score: 1

      And don't get me started with how Outlook is written in VB.

      I wouldn't mind you getting started on that, I've never heard it before. Despite me not wanting to use Visual Basic personally, I don't really care if an app was written in it as long as it works! Visual Basic scripting may be integrated into Outlook but that doesn't necessarily mean it was written using it :s I can't see anyone wanting to develop an application as complex as Outlook in VB.. yuck.

      I tried setting up OpenExchange here a few years ago, but DirectPUSH from Exchange to WM phones really is a great application, and a lot better than the crapberrys that our sales people were using before (I hate getting blamed for things not working even though it's actually RIM's network that has the issues rather than any of our own systems - much better when I'm at least getting blamed for the things that I can fix!). If this thing is easy to setup and really is fully featured, I can see us moving to it eventually. The less Microsoft tax we have to pay, the better :)

      My only concern is that even if this replaces Exchange, it still doesn't replace Outlook.. bleh. Outlook is the only reason I still get Office with new machines (there's another inhouse app that we have that utilises Excel but I'm redesigning it as a web app), because no other client I've tried integrates nicely in 'Exchange' mode - you have to go through IMAP, which is similar but not quite the same.

      --
      which is totally what she said
  4. Re:EAT SHIT FAGGOTS!! by oahazmatt · · Score: 5, Funny

    Linux is for the garbage can!

    Sweet! What won't Linux run on these days?

    --
    Those who believe the Internet is private,
    find their privates are on the Internet.
  5. Re:EAT SHIT FAGGOTS!! by uassholes · · Score: 3, Funny

    If I had some mod points I would give you one for funny. Ignorant, but funny.

  6. Woohoo! by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 3, Informative

    Well, that's certainly nice, push-mail, activesync, mapi, all the things people like about Exchange in an open source variant, why the hell not?

    I've been running OpenGroupware myself as a cheap replacement for Exchange (using funambol to replace ActiveSync) and it works nicely, but the more alternatives to Exchange the better!

    I've yet to try this one, i hope it's atleast as "easy" to manage as an Exchange server tho, if you need 10 Rocket Scientists to install it, then open sourcing it won't make it magicly defeat Exchange, and sometimes i get the impression people tend to forget other people use their applications too.

    In short, the more the merrier! Long live FOSS!

    1. Re:Woohoo! by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      Argh, make the E-Groupware :)

    2. Re:Woohoo! by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I've yet to try this one, i hope it's atleast as "easy" to manage as an Exchange server tho, if you need 10 Rocket Scientists to install it, then open sourcing it won't make it magicly defeat Exchange, and sometimes i get the impression people tend to forget other people use their applications too.

      Yeah, I'd love to hear from someone who has set this up already. I've tried other Exchange alternatives, and with some of them, even if the directions look pretty easy, it takes a ton of tinkering to get the thing running.

      So what do I actually have to do in Debian, for example, to get this up and running?

    3. Re:Woohoo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I've tried other Exchange alternatives, and with some of them, even if the directions look pretty easy, it takes a ton of tinkering to get the thing running.

      Much like the actual product.

    4. Re:Woohoo! by Lershac · · Score: 1

      meh, I am not a fanboy for MS, their stuff is overpriced and yadda yadda... but for 99% of small business it takes about an hour and poof. working exchange box.

      --
      Chuck
    5. Re:Woohoo! by SHaFT7 · · Score: 1

      agreed. same findings here. i'd love to walk into smb and say "here's exchange for way less than exchange costs", but managing FOSS on the backend would be a nightmare. take that times 25 clients right now (and growing every month). exchange installs, and just works.

    6. Re:Woohoo! by dbIII · · Score: 2, Informative

      i hope it's atleast as "easy" to manage as an Exchange server tho

      I shouldn't have read that one while drinking coffee.

      Inexperienced admins think MS Exchange is easy because they don't have disaster recovery plans and they do not test them. The problem of needing another licence just to be able to effectively learn this is one thing that keeps them inexperienced, as is a lack of exposure to other systems that manage email effectively. Now MS Exchange does all kinds of other odd things as well as running email which makes it just about the only thing of it's kind, but if you compare it to purpose built email systems it is a difficult beast to wrangle. Want a company wide email disclaimer to go on messages? It's just an easy hack of the registry but how on earth is somebody going to find it later without incredibly good documentation? Proper backups that will actually work without shutting down the entire system are now possible in MS Exchange but it should have had it from day one!

    7. Re:Woohoo! by PermanentMarker · · Score: 1

      Just a note GPLv3 (from their website) When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price.

      Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for them if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it if you want it, that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free programs, and that you know you can do these things.

      its still not free open source.

      I know how Exchange works therefore i would be intrested how their Database Speed compares to lets say a quad core clustered Exchange with a 500GB database and 4000 users, as thats a hardware buy decision point. Will it outperform Exchange ?

      --
      I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
    8. Re:Woohoo! by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      Sorry there buddy, but your point isn't exactly valid, Exchange isn't just a mail server (it's woofully inadequite for a mail server, want a dedicated mail server, well, get one of the FOSS ones), it's a whole lot more, and it's the "whole lot more" aspect that is Exchange's bread & butter.

      If an inexperianced admin can't tackle Exchange, i doubt he'll be able to tackle Sendmail (eg) any better, no matter what application you use, you should *ALWAYS* document your setup, and anyone that's stupid enough to have no disaster recovery plans shouldn't even be allowed near the bloody thing.

      There's a reason why i said "easy" with "", because it's not always easy at all, the things that *ARE* easy however, are installing Exchange & getting a basic setup running, i've found that on several FOSS systems, getting it going at all sometimes is more then an uphill battle, it's full out war.

      I hate Exchange just as much as the next guy, but failure to recognise it's good points makes recognising it's flaws an excercise in futility.

  7. Slashdotted already by mprindle · · Score: 1

    Look at this... The topic was just posted and the site is already Slashdotted... WTG!

    1. Re:Slashdotted already by mikiN · · Score: 1

      Maybe the site is hosted on an IIS alternative that's too close and faithful to the original, even being bug-compatible and all. /me ducks and cowers from the expected mod-storm

      --
      The Hacker's Guide To The Kernel: Don't panic()!
    2. Re:Slashdotted already by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

      Nope. They are running Apache 2.2.3 on Debian. ***

  8. not vetted/tried and true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've not looked at this software, but Exchange is one hell of a piece of machinery. Say what you want about MS, but I've seen an Exchange server with terabytes of email, gigabytes per day, keeping up fine. It's a pain in the ass sometimes to be sure, but I wouldn't trust my production network to this today anyway.

    1. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Say what you want about MS, but I've seen an Exchange server with terabytes of email, gigabytes per day, keeping up fine.

      BS. I've seen Exchange servers with gigabytes of mail and megabytes per day roll over and cry until we put a FreeBSD/Postfix/Amavis/ClamAV server in front to lighten the workload by 95%. If this is built on top of FOSS components, I don't doubt for a second that it'll run rings around Exchange.

      Exchange has traditionally had exactly one reason for its popularity: vendor lock-in. If this really is a drop-in replacement without annoying CALs, we'll be Microsoft-free on our servers by Monday.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    2. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was mostly concerned with not losing/corrupting emails.

    3. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Exactly. And I'd much trust something like Cyrus IMAP over Exchange for data integrity any day of the week.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    4. Re:not vetted/tried and true by OrangeTide · · Score: 3, Interesting

      after working the storage industry I have come to the conclusion that exchange is not very effective at handling heavy email load or large message database. How many of us get annoying emails when we have more than a few hundred MB of messages in our mailbox? Did you know that Exchange performs like crap when you run low on local disk space to keep the data. CIFS won't save your ass either, you end up having to go to using SAN (which looks like local disk from Exchange's point of view).

      Some bullshit scripts with postfix, exim or qmail can spool and forward terabytes of email an hour. With the added advantage that you can cluster your IMAP services out to deal with the space and load in an incredibly simple yet scalable manner. You can use a SAN, but you can just as easily setup a new box for every 100 employees and still have a very usable system.

      Exchange is inflexible and can only scale if you use on particular (and very expensive) setup. Microsoft only focuses on the operating modes of Exchange server that they use at corporate HQ. The inferior modes are just there so they can sucker companies into buying it at the low end, when in a short while the company will have to invest an exponential rate of money to scale the system.

      The TCO of Exchange is very high. And Microsoft's way is not the only way to manage messages, events, meetings and users.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    5. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty much, if you have a big company, you go Exchange. Not for E-mail, but the officers and management love their appointment scheduling.

      If this product can replace OWA, I definitely will be replacing my home Exchange server with a RHCE box running this.

    6. Re:not vetted/tried and true by LibertineR · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Sorry, that is just bullshit.

      Exchange inflexible?

      What do you say to the Hundreds of Thousands of clients who get their Exchange via SBS (Small Business Server)? And that's just the 2003 version.

      How many Enterprise apps do you know of by ANY vendor that dont degrade with low disk space? Come on, dude, that aint fair and you know it.

      Exchange is one of those apps that can look bad if installed by an idiot. You would think a proper architect would have worked out space and usage requirements early on.

      How do you reach a low space condition ANYWAY, if you are making proper use of quotas? No product takes more abuse due to stupid administration than Exchange server.

      But please, inflexible? When you have dozens of 100K+ client installations of Exchange humming along at places like Chevron and others, while the very same product can keep 20 people happy on a $500 box, you cant call it inflexible. Thats just wrong, pal.

    7. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But please, inflexible? When you have dozens of 100K+ client installations of Exchange humming along at places like Chevron and others, while the very same product can keep 20 people happy on a $500 box, you cant call it inflexible. Thats just wrong, pal.

      Any problem is shallow if you throw enough monkeys at it. Places like Chevron and Bechtel can afford -- and do have -- a helluva lot of IT monkeys.

      Doesn't say much for the product, though

    8. Re:not vetted/tried and true by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Now now, children... Or something like that.

      Anyways, the Exchange/Outlook environment has its issues.

      - Ever try to recover a corrupted .PST file over 2GB? I know it isn't supposed to happen but it has, and it's not pretty. Tell your CEO that some time.

      - Every try to migrate off of Exchange? I can understand not caring, but this is something I would not expect to find in the seventh ring of Hell. Just too nasty.

      - Ever try to juggle backups, antivirus, patch management, and users saving EVERYTHING FOR THE PAST SEVEN YEARS, including the 1GB Photoshop file attached to an email? And then explaining to the CEO's wife why she can't reliably use Outlook as a backup device? Well, actually, I wonder what email system could do that... any that I could hope would are gone now.

      I've learned to loathe Exchange, then tolerate it, then long for the days when I could sell GroupWise, and finally wish for the good old days of Postfix and Eudora. Exchange is pretty functional now, save for some serious deficiencies in the Outlook client (.PST files are just plain wrong), but an FOSS replacement makes for some very profitable opportunities. Should be plenty of outfits offering open-source Exchange replacements, and pocketing the cash for themselves instead of sending in license fees to Microsoft. Now, do they have decent management tools? We can hope...

      ps- My largest Exchange sites were users in the hundreds, so I wasn't out there as an admin legend. But the Exchange tamers I know who work in massive installations tell me of the horrors of keeping big systems alive, what with clustering, database maintenance, and the joys of working in academia and inputing the new class each year. And moving another class to the alumni system. One describes it as making an omelette in the shell. Sounds easy, until you realize it's a fragile container. 'Woops' is not what you want to hear. But you do.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    9. Re:not vetted/tried and true by wasabii · · Score: 3, Informative

      Exchange does not use PSTs. Migrating off Exchange is fine. You canc onnect to Exchange with IMAP and dump data. Just like you can with every other open source server. Problem is that Exchange has features which these other servers do not, and thus it's not really going to work out: Calendars/Contacts. And yes. I do juggle backups, patches, etc. I run Exchange on a set of clustered boxes sharing storage. I can fail over a machine, patch one, and bring it back up. Pretty freaking easy. I honestly never touch the thing except to apply patches. Once every 6 months. Ever tried to migrate a user's mailbox from one site to another? One button. It moves it on it's own. Authentication is integrated into AD. One password. All communication uses Kerberos. It's lovely.

    10. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You hit the nail on the head...those that fail to admin MS systems fail out of their own ignorance of the systems.

      So many on /. are just on the MS hatewagon without having a clue how to admin it, thus fail and blame MS for it, instead of looking in the mirror and asking "why did I not research and LEARN how to use Microsoft systems properly before placing my foot in mouth"

      I've been an admin on *nix and worked with many others that did...and the common factor of the MS haters was that they never bothered to read, practice, and use the trial versions until competent...instead they got linux and all the "free" stuff and jumped on the hatewagon out of ignorance.

    11. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exchange not inflexible?

      Try demoting an exchange server from being a domain controller.

    12. Re:not vetted/tried and true by GoodNicksAreTaken · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've seen dozens and the only ones that have that kind of load and keep up without tons of maintenance are ones that are running as POP and not true Exchange servers.

    13. Re:not vetted/tried and true by OrangeTide · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are limited in the amount of diskspace you can put in a server without switching to a SAN. There are only two useful configurations for Exchange in this respect (and they are identical in configuration, just different in cost). Quotas don't solve the problem if they are too small or you hire more people than you expected (merges for instance).

      Exim, postfix, qmail, sendmail, etc are capable of operating when you have low disk space because you can give it more diskspace by either moving parts of your mail server into a cluster (exchange does not do this in a way that is easy or transparent). or you can use an inexpensive NAS to provide the additional spool space without horrible performance issues. Exchange really can't use NAS in a useful way, you are stuck jumping directly to SAN.

      The lack of options for configuration is why I call it inflexible. It's a reasonable usage of the word "inflexible".

      Now you might use Exchange anyways because of the other features it offers that are not available in other products. And it might be flexible in ways other than scalability. Also, I'm not saying that anyone should use my evaluation as a complete coverage of all the issues used to make these sorts of decisions. I only want to point out that for cost and flexible scalability, Exchange is not the top dog.

      When you have dozens of 100K+ client installations of Exchange humming along at places like Chevron and others, while the very same product can keep 20 people happy on a $500 box, you cant call it inflexible

      That's essentially my point. Exchange offers no middle ground. You either have a crappy small office mail server on a spare Windows box, or you have an enterprise environment with SAN. Perhaps it's just evil to change your messaging infrastructure in mid-step, but companies grow.

      I think I would recommend that everyone just start with a standard SMTP/IMAP solution, hire a Unix admin if you have to. And hold off on switching over to Exchange until they can afford a SAN.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    14. Re:not vetted/tried and true by LibertineR · · Score: 1
      Things like what you posted are why I got out of IT and into Consulting. I realized that as an employee, it was much more difficult to get end-users to adhere to best practices. However, as a consultant, that 1G Photoshop attachment would void a clients SLA.

      Exchange cant be blamed for the things that happen when used like a storage tool. If I walked into a place where the CEO had a 2G pst file and would not adhere to a quota, I would not take that contract, plain and simple.

      This is how a lot of tools, not just Microsoft stuff, gets a bad rap. Somewhere along the way, IT lost their balls in dealing with Management. Exchange is not fragile when used within the guidelines. Raise your hand, if you integrity tested the Store every couple weeks, with a decoupled-defrag every other time? Proper quotas, attachment controls, and proper monitoring can keep any Exchange server rockin, assuming proper disk, bandwidth and memory.

      PSTs are a necessary evil, but if you run in Cached Mode, and again, with the proper setup, and headers-first connections, you can get away with stuff.

      As I continue to point out on Slashdot, the reason there are so few competing options to Exchange, is that its a fucking hard app to build, and little available return without a true feature-for-feature fight.

      I wont say that Exchange is awesome stuff, its just better than everything else.

    15. Re:not vetted/tried and true by rickb928 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...which is why I turn down admin/AD/Windows consulting jobs. I'm tired of being the angel of death, declaring death and data loss, due to past decisions and previous admins/mercenaries who did bad things.

      Yeah, I hear ya. After 17 years, I finally told my boss it wasn't worth it. He really didn't understand. Then again, he never really understood what we did.

      I do miss GroupWise, though. It just plain worked. But that's another story...

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    16. Re:not vetted/tried and true by distilledprodigy · · Score: 1

      The team I'm on supports Exchange 2003 in a 40,000 user environment and Exchange handles it all very well. We're so under staffed (we also support our corporate SUN DS-LDAP environment, SUN IDM, application server farm, citrix farm, sharepoint environment), with a whopping 6 people, that we haven't even defragged the databases in over a year (the "business" can't "afford" downtime). Luckily, we're in the middle of deploying Exchange 2007.

    17. Re:not vetted/tried and true by mysidia · · Score: 1

      An alternative to Exchange is a good idea. Exchange is vast, bloated, more prone to failure than it should be, more of a big mess if it does fail, etc.

      Yes.. from their site: the pricing looks over the top for a product that has so little of a track record.

      Community version only supports max of 3 outlook users. For the "standard" version 30 euro, [ ~$45 USD ] per user.

      100 users x $45 USD = $4,500.

      That's enough to prevent me from even trying it. I don't care if a "free trial" is available or not; true testing of an alternative takes much more extensive testing& duration than a trial allows.

      Same 100 users: Exchange 2007 ~$11,00 total.. $4000 Enterprise edition license, 100 user CALs for ~$6700. $1000 for server 2003 licenses.

      Not that their product doesn't have benefits; especially if it runs on Linux.

      Doesn't support multiple servers or HA type features which M$ exchange has for that price.

      M$ exchange has advantage in that it's a well-known product -- when it comes to server maintenance, many IT professionals will be able to handle it.

      In an enterprise environment; it's important that your critical infrastructure is proven, and well understood. This is worth more than a 50% discount.

      If M$ offered a 60% discount on a less-proven dev version, or on a version with completely different management tools, in many cases: it would still be worth paying the extra 60% of the product purchase price, to reduce management costs / costs of failure later.

    18. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Let's see. Exchange server, management REFUSES to upgrade the servers even though we just bought another company and the Morons in upper management wants to integrate the two networks ASAP. Ok, gimmie $120K to buy new servers..... no? why not? no money? Great.... then give me all their servers and get the licenses transferred... what? we cant do that? thanks!

      so we have at least 40% more users on the system now than it can realistically handle. I had to crank quotas so far down that most everyone get's a "mailbox full" warning every week.

      90% of the time It problems are because upper managements are RAGING IDIOTS. not the IT guys maintaining it.

      and yes, 90% of the problem is the fact that exchange is a POS. there is no sane reason to keep all the users email on the server after they read it. I'm storing terabytes of useless crap and atachments for NO REAL REASON.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    19. Re:not vetted/tried and true by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Sorry. I am sad to report that Microsoft appears to have nothing to fear.

    20. Re:not vetted/tried and true by LibertineR · · Score: 4, Insightful
      So tell me; did you present your management with a cost/benefit analysis, supporting your request for additional hardware? Did you point out what a catastrophic failure of the Exchange infrastructure would cost them in lost man-hours and productivity? If everyone in your company is getting "mailbox -full" notices, it would seem to me an easy argument to make in DOLLARS, as to the amount of time spent by staff just to find items to delete each week. Am I wrong?

      Have you looked into tools like GFI's Mail Archiver or the Mimosa tools to get you some disk space back, and bump up overall performance?

      See, it is very easy to just say, "management sucks, exchange sucks, yada, yada", but until or unless you have done all you can do to make your case, I repeat: IN DOLLARS, you have to bear some responsibility. This is what is wrong with IT these days. I'm guessing you didnt do a cost analysis, and you would not be alone in that regard, but someday, IT folks are going to have to prove that we are REAL professionals, or management has no good reason to pay any attention to us. IT is not just about technology, you have to sometimes be a teacher and a salesman to be effective, even when Management makes you not want to really give a shit.

      Personally, if you had done what I suggested, and gotten the response you described, were I you, I would have walked out of there, before I let anyone put my name on a fucked up server.

      But, that's me. (climbing down from my soapbox)

    21. Re:not vetted/tried and true by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      Note that the calendar is *not* part of the package until you're willing to open your wallet. I frankly am really not seeing what the appeal of the free version is.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    22. Re:not vetted/tried and true by LibertineR · · Score: 2, Interesting
      True, but Microsoft bares some blame too (GASP). Initially, Microsoft marketed their tools as easier to maintain than the competition, which was true up to a point. However, beyond a 30 person shop, it is a good idea to have someone on staff who really knows what they are doing, not just the CEO's nephew who likes to tinker with shit.

      Microsoft is also to blame for the ease of passing the MCSE exams, resulting in a lot of people thinking they knew a lot more then they really did. A guy shows up with his shiny certification, and proceeds to fuck up your servers, and then it is EASY to blame the software, rather than the "genius" with the cert.

    23. Re:not vetted/tried and true by dbIII · · Score: 1

      How many Enterprise apps do you know of by ANY vendor

      You are in the wrong thread here, we are talking about Microsoft Exchange and not an "Enterprise" application.

      Microsoft Exchange give the appearance of scalability and reliabilty when you have several machines running it - you can't just put one on a bigger box and hope it handles more load. From the outside the pile of servers make look "enterprisey" but it's a complicated mass of extra configuration and third party applications to cover the gaps to turn a small office system into something that looks after those 100K+ clients.

      Exchange is one of those apps that can look bad if installed by an idiot

      For instance if you call an idiot somebody that follows Microsoft's instrutions instead testing a variety of undocumented tweaks before you plug it into the network. Remember this is the program that was configured to be an OPEN RELAY BY DEFAULT by several patches.

    24. Re:not vetted/tried and true by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Nice comeback. So long as you limit the business to the capability of a an expensive hobby system you pay for then the hobby system is good enough. Thankfully not even Microsoft think that way and they are improving the capabilities of MS Exchange. However in those places where a lot of data is moving about they were never in the game. It's 2008 - people want to email 2GB files let alone have mailbox limits that size!

    25. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you know that Exchange performs like crap when you run low on local disk space to keep the data.

      Why is your Exchange server running out of disk space? Don't you have automated monitoring of your server with something like Nagios? Aren't you using something like NagiosGraph to trend your disk space usage and plan upgrades before you run out of space? Aren't you setting quotas so that users can't dump 10 gigs of data into their email accounts overnight?

    26. Re:not vetted/tried and true by WhiteHorse-The+Origi · · Score: 3, Informative

      I disagree! With just a few simple apps you can do everything exchange does and more.
      Email-Postfix
      Calendar-iCal + LDAP
      Meeting requests-iCal
      Tasks-iCal
      Synchronization-Webdav or SyncML
      Publishing Calendars-Webdav(Caldav) or SyncML
      Sharing/Editing the same calendar-Webdav(GroupDav) or SyncML
      Webmail-Many choices, some with calendars, AJAX, etc
      Blackberry-Funambol, SyncML I mean seriously, what else do you need? Encryption? Got it. There are tons of more features with clients like Evolution and Thunderbird including desktop integration.

    27. Re:not vetted/tried and true by WhiteHorse-The+Origi · · Score: 1

      Just switch over to Postfix on the backend. It can be setup to automatically archive, comb, compress old messages and delete them after a specified period of time or move them to some tapes, whatever. Your users won't even notice it if you just make the exchange server a relay host...

    28. Re:not vetted/tried and true by WhiteHorse-The+Origi · · Score: 1

      He probably did that, made a fancy OpenOffice Presenter Slide-show with budget calculations and projections made in OpenOffice Calc, and handed out executive overviews made with Openoffice Writer. After he finished doing all of this, only 5 of his 10 managers bothered to show up and 2 left during the presentation saying "Oh this is all IT stuff".
      After giving the data to management, they just said, with blank stares, "So what do you recommend we do?". To which he said, "We can put in a Linux server for $500 which will do what we need, however I need additional training and time to configure it to be safe and reliable, or we need $120k for more Micro$oft licenses and dozens of servers". We already know the response he got from management...

    29. Re:not vetted/tried and true by WhiteHorse-The+Origi · · Score: 1

      Dude, it's just email. Google supports 40,000,000 users with just a few ragged old PCs and 4 techs. Oh wait, you're running exchange server, yes that explains it...

    30. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed - this is excellent news for the small business that just can afford a IT person who runs around keeping exchange working.

      The idea that all this could be available on lighter, smarter and tighter hardware sounds great to me. I was looking for a solution like this earlier and couldn't justify Exchange and the cost that comes with that.

      I think this will be pretty major if it works as advertised. And vetting this won't take long to do. I'll be looking for reviews on this!

    31. Re:not vetted/tried and true by mishehu · · Score: 1

      I have to agree with parent about Exchange choking. The one thing that really irritates me about Exchange is the whole "Let's toss everything and the kitchen sink into two single files" and "you'll have to shell out for special backup add-ons so that you can actually make meaningful backups of the users' mailboxes" ideologies. I prefer to use Maildirs with reiser4 (don't bother with the jokes about Hans, I've heard them before and they're not funny) - easy to backup and to use. But alas, NTFS would totally barf on even just one of my maildir folders...

    32. Re:not vetted/tried and true by rabbit994 · · Score: 1

      News flash: Exchange 2007 has unlimited sizes for Databases now theoretically, practically around 300GB they start to get wierd, before that, everything is fine. Outlook 2003 SP2 does Unicode PSTs which is 18GB of email. Exchange Server itself is 64bit and it's pretty broken down with servers having roles. Exchange 2007 has stopped being end all be all and now it's job is to do email/calendaring. While I'm MS user mainly because I've yet to find a situation where I can pitch Linux system without sounding like a fanboi. While Exchange has bad rap, Exchange 2007 is pretty nice and only getting better by day.

    33. Re:not vetted/tried and true by mishehu · · Score: 1

      With maildirs, migrating a user's mailbox is as simple as using rsync... done it many times. I trust it more than the "one button check-out" to move it. I've had that fail before on MS Exchange...

    34. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Mr.+McGibby · · Score: 1

      Why should a friggin' IT pro be doing COST ANALYSIS? Isn't that a management function? The IT pro is supposed to do IT. They're not business experts. Not only are they not qualified to slap together some well meaning but totally invalid cost/benefit analysis, but it's not even their job. That's the job of management. They're the ones with business degrees. They're supposed to know how to do that. Their job is to take information from the IT pro and compile it to get the cost/benefit.

      I'm so sick of IT folks acting like they DO understand business and putting together risk analyses that are all gloom and doom.

      "Sir, we need 7 redundant mail servers and 13 petabytes of storage! Otherwise, the email might go down and we might run out of space! Look I've computed the cost of our email being down, and while I'm just pulling these figures out of my ass, I think it means that we would lose a gagillion dollars! Or was that yen? Doesn't matter does it? It's a lot money!"

      "But Joe, do you really think we need all that for my little pet shop?"

      --
      Mad Software: Rantings on Developing So
    35. Re:not vetted/tried and true by mea_culpa · · Score: 1

      If this really is a drop-in replacement without annoying CALs, we'll be Microsoft-free on our servers by Monday.

      And there lies a big problem. When you have CALs for Exchange you also have licenses to Outlook which last time I checked are about $80 each.
      Unless you already have outlook as part of an MS office suite this isn't going to be cheap.

    36. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh come on. Its poorly designed. I've seen Exchange in action. Someone tries to mass-mail a 1 MB file and the server rolls over and dies. A simple link could solve the problem (delete permissions to the owner, view permissions to everyone else who gets the link sent to them). 1 MB picture linked 10000 times is 10000 5 byte links plus a 1 MB picture. Exchange tries to send a 1 MB picture 10000 times consuming 10000 MB! When they send a 20 MB file, everyone goes home early. Exchange is sukky. And vetted? Go vet a toilet seat!

    37. Re:not vetted/tried and true by SpooForBrains · · Score: 1

      Sometimes I wish we had a -1 Bullshit mod

      --
      "The dew has clearly fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning"
    38. Re:not vetted/tried and true by jimicus · · Score: 1

      What the business needs in this context is an IT manager. Someone who understands the technical stuff sufficiently to be able to have an intelligent conversation with the techs and who can act as a conduit between them and senior management to break it down into cost/benefit.

      If the OP doesn't have an IT manager yet the company is large enough to need one, the business is screwed. If he is the IT manager, then he's obviously not being taken very seriously.

    39. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "BS. I've seen Exchange servers with gigabytes of mail and megabytes per day roll over and cry"

      And I've seen Lamborghinis driven into ditches.
      You might want to be more selective with who you give your keys to.

    40. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have no experience with exchange server whatsoever, but needing a $500 box for just 20 users sounds pathetic. I would expect a single box to handle at least hundereds of users, and would be very disapointed if it could not keep up with its 1Gbit network link.

    41. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I get a ton of e-mail in my organization that I think belongs on a web page and not in an e-mail. E.g. 3mb PDFs from HR. With a 100mb limit that is pretty intrusive. I've often wondered if you could setup an e-mail as a single item that is shared between who it is addressed to instead of being copied into each persons inbox.

    42. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Why should a friggin' IT pro be doing COST ANALYSIS? Isn't that a management function? The IT pro is supposed to do IT. They're not business experts. Not only are they not qualified to slap together some well meaning but totally invalid cost/benefit analysis, but it's not even their job. That's the job of management. They're the ones with business degrees. They're supposed to know how to do that. Their job is to take information from the IT pro and compile it to get the cost/benefit.

      I'm so sick of IT folks acting like they DO understand business and putting together risk analyses that are all gloom and doom.

      "Sir, we need 7 redundant mail servers and 13 petabytes of storage! Otherwise, the email might go down and we might run out of space! Look I've computed the cost of our email being down, and while I'm just pulling these figures out of my ass, I think it means that we would lose a gagillion dollars! Or was that yen? Doesn't matter does it? It's a lot money!"

      "But Joe, do you really think we need all that for my little pet shop?"

      If you don't know enough about your businesses needs as an IT professional to be able to quantify your purchase requests, you don't deserve to call yourself an IT professional.

    43. Re:not vetted/tried and true by AmonTheMetalhead · · Score: 1

      For alot of SMB's eGroupware suffice, it has calendar, contacts, tasks and whole other slew of features, including syncing with phones & other gadgets.

      I use it, and i love it.

    44. Re:not vetted/tried and true by julesh · · Score: 1

      If this really is a drop-in replacement without annoying CALs

      It isn't. Like every previous supposedly-open-source Exchange replacement we've seen before, it requires an Outlook MAPI connector which isn't open source, and which they want to charge you 30 euros per user for.

    45. Re:not vetted/tried and true by julesh · · Score: 1

      Unless you already have outlook as part of an MS office suite this isn't going to be cheap.

      Which, lets face it, 90%+ of medium/large businesses do. I mean, sure, there are versions of Office that don't include Outlook, but which business is going to skip Office Enterprise, Office Professional, Office Small Business, and Office Standard and go straight for Office Home and Student or Office Basic? And how many businesses, really, don't have Office of some variety?

    46. Re:not vetted/tried and true by LibertineR · · Score: 1

      How is that 'Exchange' in action? Seems more like 'stupid users and poor admin' in action. What you mentioned is easily prevented through proper configuration. Thanks for helping make my point.

    47. Re:not vetted/tried and true by LibertineR · · Score: 1
      Who said anything about NEEDING a $500 box? I think I said a $500 box would keep 20 users happy. By that, I mean something running SBS, SQL, Exchange, and AD.

      Exchange is not a simple POP/IMAP server, and Windows Server comes with an SMTP service, if simple mail is all you want to do with it. Surely, before commenting, you could at least read something about what Exchange is?

    48. Re:not vetted/tried and true by gambit73 · · Score: 1

      Not true. The calendar is open source. The so called Multi user calendar is not though. It's a calendar where you have an overview of the calendars of multiple users in one display. Zarafa Webaccess acts and performs like OWA and is free.

    49. Re:not vetted/tried and true by julesh · · Score: 1

      Exchange really can't use NAS in a useful way, you are stuck jumping directly to SAN.

      Have you considered iSCSI as an intermediate step? It should work in the same way a traditional fiber-channel SAN would, but is substantially cheaper.

    50. Re:not vetted/tried and true by LibertineR · · Score: 1
      "Why should a friggin' IT pro be doing COST ANALYSIS? "

      Uh, because that is one of the things that defines an "IT PRO", as opposed to merely an IT WORKER?

      An IT Professional, is someone who is concerned about IT's relationship to the overall business, understands the difference between IT being simply a cost-center, or a profit enhancer.

      No professional is going to stroll into management offices proclaiming the need for more hardware without some metrics to back it up. I realize that there are IT primadonna's who think their word should be accepted as if from God, that they should never be questioned, at the fear of locking up the network on a tantrum. That attitude is how we got the San Francisco fiasco. That dude was less concerned for the REASON for that network, than for the network itself.

      There are too many pasty-fat bastards with poor social skills managing networks and scripting Excel macros who have never taken a look at the very data they are supposed to protect.

      A professional does whatever it takes to become more effective at their job. If you work in IT, and have never done a cost analysis, never done a P&L document, or a gap analysis, than you are a mere technician, and will eventually be replaced by a trained monkey, and blame your management for sending your job overseas.

      Be a fuckin asset, not a liability, baby!

    51. Re:not vetted/tried and true by LibertineR · · Score: 1

      Look into MOSS. (Microsoft Office SharePoint Server) It directly addresses your issue.

    52. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work in a small hardware company. The vast majority of our work is done on Linux machines, both on the servers and the desktop machines: the users have a choice between XP & Ubuntu, most choose Ubuntu either because they're familiar with it or because most of the time they're SSH'd into a server or running an X application anyway. As a result the vast, vast majority of the email clients are Evolution using IMAP on the server.

      The server is Exchange 2007.

      Please don't ask me why.

    53. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Phishcast · · Score: 1

      Things may have changed some since you looked into Exchange for large environments. I work in an environment where Microsoft is pushing direct attached storage over SAN for a 200k+ user Exchange implementation. They even say they will handle remote replication this way. Microsoft has completely changed their tune regarding SAN for Exchange 2007.

    54. Re:not vetted/tried and true by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      Exchange has traditionally had exactly one reason for its popularity: vendor lock-in. If this really is a drop-in replacement without annoying CALs, we'll be Microsoft-free on our servers by Monday.

      Not necessarily.

      Exchange does exactly what it needs to, just well enough to squeak by.

      For better or worse, Exchange has set the bar for groupware. If a competing product isn't at least capable of emulating all of its features, it's simply not going to take off.

      Remember how Microsoft Word was capable of acting "almost exactly like WordPerfect 5.1" for years and years, despite the fact that their own product was actually rather superior in more than a few ways? It's sort of like that...

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    55. Re:not vetted/tried and true by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Or I could just run a cluster of open source IMAP servers. Migrating data to mail hubs closest to where employees work and live.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    56. Re:not vetted/tried and true by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Things may have changed some since you looked into Exchange for large environments.

      This is certainly true. Although it's pretty pathetic they couldn't get it right 3 years ago when a cheap ass open source MTA can run circles around their "enterprise" software on 1/10th the hardware.

      How long must we suffer with an inferior solution for no good reason until they finally come up with a reason to justify their existence. There is this weird sort of faith driving decisions in the Microsoft world, and I just don't get it.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    57. Re:not vetted/tried and true by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "there is no sane reason to keep all the users email on the server after they read it"

      Why not? I mean, honestly, why not?

    58. Re:not vetted/tried and true by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "did you present your management with a cost/benefit analysis, supporting your request for additional hardware?"

      Since he tells how bad is his management, we can infere his is not a manager. Then it is not his job to provide a cost analysis, that's the job for someone... in management. Even more: since he is not in management, he is probably not in a position to make a sensible cost analysis even if he tried. Does he know the costs involved with someone not working for an hour in a different department? Is he even *allowed* to gain knowledge of such costs?

      On the other hand, he was not talking about some esotheric IT subsystem. The problem here is an obvious one: you have a system that loads up linearly at best with the number of people accesing it (one user one mailbox; two users two mailboxes, three users, etc.); the number of people has suddenly grown by 40%; you don't need a genious to understand you will need to grow your hardware by 40% too (indeed you might need a genious that will find a way to cope with the higher load without growing the supporting structure, but that's a different issue). That management won't understand that simple issue means management is idiotic. That it's probably not the case that they don't understand it but that they run out of money after the aquisition because they didn't consider associated structural costs for the migration show -again, that management is idiotic.

    59. Re:not vetted/tried and true by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "An IT Professional, is someone who is concerned about IT's relationship to the overall business, understands the difference between IT being simply a cost-center, or a profit enhancer."

      Sorry sir, but no sir. What you have defined is a CTO (or depending of circumnstances, a CIO or an IT manager). We (hopefully) expect a CTO to be an IT professional but CTOs are only a subset of all IT professionals.

      "That attitude is how we got the San Francisco fiasco. That dude was less concerned for the REASON for that network, than for the network itself."

      Which certainly doesn't mean that guy not being an IT professional; it meant he wasn't an IT manager. And it meant that his manager, who should have been an IT manager wasn't an IT professional. *THIS* was the reason for the SF fiasco.

      "There are too many pasty-fat bastards with poor social skills managing networks and scripting Excel macros"

      That might be true, but I don't see were the social skills are needed for a "managing networks and scripting Excel macros" professional profile. Their managers? Sure, but not the doers.

      "A professional does whatever it takes to become more effective at their job. If you work in IT, and have never done a cost analysis, never done a P&L document, or a gap analysis, than you are a mere technician"

      Surely you use quite a weird definition for a professional since you think a "mere technician" not being one. My bet is that you bought an "IT management for dummies" book last week and you are just full of it. Don't worry, eventually it'll fade away.

    60. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Allador · · Score: 1

      Its only free for 3 users or less.

      And even that version has tons of things you dont get.

      It's crippleware, and fairly pointless crippleware too. What is the use of an open-source email server that is only open-source and free for = 3 users?

    61. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Allador · · Score: 1

      I dont think you know very much about Exchange, and are just making things up.

      How many of us get annoying emails when we have more than a few hundred MB of messages in our mailbox?

      What does this possibly have to do with Exchange? The mailserver admins can set quotas on your IMAP box too. Dont confuse cheap-ass company policy with inherent quality of the system.

      Did you know that Exchange performs like crap when you run low on local disk space to keep the data.

      Correction. Due to the way that Exchange allocates file space, it doesnt deal with fragmentation very well as you're approaching very close to a full drive. And this only even applies to direct attached storage, and not iSCI or SAN mounts.

      The solution to this is simple, dont run down under a couple of gigabytes of free space. It would be stupid to do so anyway, as a couple of gigabytes can fill up in minutes in a busy mail server. If you're letting the drives holding your mail data files get that low, then you're doing a bad job administering the box(es).

      CIFS won't save your ass either, you end up having to go to using SAN (which looks like local disk from Exchange's point of view).

      This is a non-sequitur. Exchange requires block-based access to the file system, so no one on earth who understood the underlying technologies would even bring up CIFS as a solution. You want it fast, use a fiber-channel (or similar) SAN mount. You want it cheap, use iSCSI against a NAS on a fast, low-latency switched network (preferably a dedicated one).

      Some bullshit scripts with postfix, exim or qmail can spool and forward terabytes of email an hour.

      Up above you were talking about storage, now you're talking about store and forward?

      How does comparing Exchange's data-storage abilities to another products store-and-forward abilities even make sense?

      If you want to run Exchange on a non-domain box as an MTA for that purpose, then do so. Most folks just use an open source solution, due to price. You're not buying Exchange for its earth-shattering MTA abilities.

      With the added advantage that you can cluster your IMAP services out to deal with the space and load in an incredibly simple yet scalable manner.

      You can do that with Exchange as well. In fact, thats the suggested implementation configuration.

      You can use a SAN, but you can just as easily setup a new box for every 100 employees and still have a very usable system.

      You can do both of these with exchange too, the latter by just adding a new mailbox store server for every X number of accounts.

      The inferior modes are just there so they can sucker companies into buying it at the low end, when in a short while the company will have to invest an exponential rate of money to scale the system.

      Again, I dont think you have the requisite experience to be talking about this.

      There are (probably) millions of small businesses running SBS, which includes Exchange and a whole AD setup, for $700. These sizes of Exchange boxes tend to run flawlessly, and 'just work' and require almost zero maintenance. My business manages a number of them.

      The TCO of Exchange is very high.

      By what measure? My guess is that you're only measuring the cost side based on your machine-room-operator experience. How do you value the very nice features and experience this gives for busy corporate end-users who literally cant live without all the scheduling, mail, collaboration, online/offline, sharing, public folders, etc.

      You can compare TCO against other products who do pieces of what a full Exchange/Outlook stack do, but there's nothing out there that really works as well for the end-user, so you're not comparing apples to apples. I know, I've looked and demo'd several of them.

      Here's a big hint, if all you need is webmail and the occasional team meeting, then you're not the target market of Exchange, and you're probably not in a good position to opine on the cost/benefits tradeoffs of it.

    62. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Allador · · Score: 1

      Wow, its this kind of post that really illustrates the problem.

      Slashdot is full of people mouthing off on how bad Exchange is, but by the content of their posts, they clearly dont have a clue how it even works.

      Ever try to recover a corrupted .PST file over 2GB? I know it isn't supposed to happen but it has, and it's not pretty. Tell your CEO that some time.

      What does this have to do with the subject at hand? Neither Outlook in an Exchange environment, nor Exchange use PST files. Your 'point' has nothing to do with anything that we're talking about.

      If what you mean is that if Outlook loses its local copy of the mailstore data, then you know what you do? You blow away the local outlook profile, and let it re-sync with exchange. Zero loss, zero pain, other than a few minutes wait.

      Every try to migrate off of Exchange? I can understand not caring, but this is something I would not expect to find in the seventh ring of Hell. Just too nasty.

      Yes. There are several approaches you can take.

      The first and easiest is to use whatever import/export/migration tool comes with the product you're migrating to.

      Another alternative that works fine for small installations is to have each user account copy their mail, calendar, etc into a PST. Nearly every competing product can import from PST's.

      Finally, an alternative for large installs is to just get a coder or two together and write some scripts to trawl through the exchange store and export into the desired target format. The native storage format may not be documented, but the tools to get to it fully are, and are quite straightforward to use. I've done some work in this area in the past, and it would probably take a couple days to write a one-off solution for an average coder.

      Ever try to juggle backups, antivirus, patch management, and users saving EVERYTHING FOR THE PAST SEVEN YEARS, including the 1GB Photoshop file attached to an email? And then explaining to the CEO's wife why she can't reliably use Outlook as a backup device? Well, actually, I wonder what email system could do that... any that I could hope would are gone now.

      I dont know why you call it 'juggle'ing, its just system administration, no different than anything else. You do backups, A/V, and patch management on every system, so its a moot point here.

      If you are running out of space, then either invest the money to grow the storage, or force users to clean up old files & attachments, or implement quotas. Your choice. All very straightforward.

      If you think somehow Exchange is causing you to run out of space when you shouldnt be, then you have a systems management problem.

      And if you think users saving everything for the last seven years including large attachments is exclusively an exchange problem, then you obviously havent done any work in this space.

      And why would you purposely configure the Exchange server to ALLOW a user to retrieve, send, or save a 1GB attachment? It sure as heck doesnt ship that way.

      Exchange is pretty functional now, save for some serious deficiencies in the Outlook client (.PST files are just plain wrong),

      Again, this sort of statement shows that you either have never actually done said system management of Exchange, or that you really really didnt know what you were doing.

      There are only a very small number of reasons why business users would be using PST files for business purposes while on an Exchange box.

      None of them have anything to do with features or limitations inherent to exchange, but have to do with company policy or spending decisions. For example, if you think that your management not willing to spend money to expand exchange storage and backup, and thereby forcing you to implement quotas which push people to storage archive email in PSTs (which dont get backed up), is an Exchange problem, then you have some serious

    63. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Allador · · Score: 1

      Any mail admin that lets people send 2GB attachment is a bad admin, or is working under a highly unusual and rare business case that makes it compelling.

      There a many different ways to share 2GB or greater files, nearly all of them better than emailing them.

      People want lots of things, it doesnt mean its the right thing to do to let them do it with your systems.

    64. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Allador · · Score: 1

      Exim, postfix, qmail, sendmail, etc are capable of operating when you have low disk space because you can give it more diskspace by either moving parts of your mail server into a cluster (exchange does not do this in a way that is easy or transparent). or you can use an inexpensive NAS to provide the additional spool space without horrible performance issues.

      You can do all of this with Exchange too. You can move any arbitrary number of users from a mailstore on the DAS to one mounted on a SAN. Or you can move it to a completely different device. Or you can use clustering. Or you can mount a bunch of iSCSI targets and mount different stores on each of those.

      And your comment about the spool space really blows me away. Why would you use the same storage for spool space as you do for mail storage? On a large installation, why would you even have these on the same server?

      With exchange, you can separate out every single role in the organization (MTAs, Webmail, MAPI, routing, mailstore, etc. And you can scale each of these levels as big or as small as you want.

      Exchange really can't use NAS in a useful way, you are stuck jumping directly to SAN.

      Now thats just not true at all.

      You can use as many mailbox stores as you want, and keep a large or small number of users on each, as you desire.

      You can use DAS, NAS over iSCSI, or SAN.

      The only real limitation here is that Exchange requires block level access to the storage device.

    65. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Allador · · Score: 1

      The set of jobs that fall under 'IT Pros' include IT Analysts and IT Management.

    66. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Allador · · Score: 1

      Wow.

      That was one of the most ignorant comments I've ever seen.

      How exactly can PostFix be a 'backend' for exchange? What you mean (snidely) is that dont use Exchange for mail, use PostFix. But what about the people who want the million and one things that Exchange offers, but Postfix doesnt? Like your boss? Scheduling, resources, public calendars, delegation, etc etc etc.

      So yeah, screw your users for your personal ideology. Nice work.

    67. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Allador · · Score: 1

      Way to make up a completely fictional situation and then base your argument on that.

      I'll give you a clue: Exchange does single instance store of attachments.

      So if you send an attachment to 1000 people on the box, it stores ONE copy of that attachment.

      Now if you send 1000 copies to external email addresses, then yeah, you'll consume alot of spool and bandwidth, but thats true of all mail servers in the same scenario.

    68. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Allador · · Score: 1

      Dude, its NOT just email.

      Thats the whole freaking point.

      It's a whole lot more than just email, which is why no one has really done a compelling competitor for it.

      If you dont understand that, you shouldnt be participating in this discussion.

      And google runs their gmail and calendaring across tens of thousands of servers, across many data centers, that cost literally billions of dollars.

    69. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Techman83 · · Score: 1

      But how much work does it take to get it to handle that. Our quad core, many GB memory server with Fiber channel storage has issues in relation to the store manager going wonky with a couple of 100GB of mail.

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i cat
      Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!
    70. Re:not vetted/tried and true by WhiteHorse-The+Origi · · Score: 1

      And google runs their Searchable database of trillions of websites across tens of thousands of servers, across many data centers, that cost literally billions of dollars.
      Fixed that for ya!
      Anyhoo, when you strip off all the empty microsoft promises, FUD, propaganda, and lies, exchange is really just email and calendaring. Nothing more.

    71. Re:not vetted/tried and true by WhiteHorse-The+Origi · · Score: 1

      Postfix is a mail server, if you want a drop-in replacement for exchange, PostPath can do it(for a fee) or you can figure out how to do it yourself.
      For the people who want a million and one things: Webdav+Ical.. Of course if you switch to that from the Exchange server, your clients will notice unless you can do a DNS redirect and translate the MAPI to the new and improved global standard.

    72. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Bent+Mind · · Score: 1

      Big hint, you should not EVER be using PSTs for business email if you're in an exchange environment.

      In some ways, I wish you were making policy where I work. Current policy is a 125MB quota. I regularly receive around 25MB a day, with a need to keep around 6 months of email immediately accessible. Exchange takes care of the 7-year backup requirement.

      The policy was implemented as a cost-saving measure. No, I didn't design the policy, and I'm not sure of all the reasons. However, it saved on network storage and reduced bandwidth. At the end of the week, I dump everything to the local hard drive. The local computer has at least a 30GB hard drive. OS and applications only take up about 5GB. The rest is wasted. Keeping 6 months of email in a PST file, on the local hard-drive, saved money.

      --
      Request a Linux Shockwave player here: http://www.macromedia.com/support/email/wishform/
    73. Re:not vetted/tried and true by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1
      The problem isnt in the apps, its the BS implementation of NTFS which runs like a crippled dog on drives with 80% or higher used space (i.e. the natural state of a harddrive). I still wonder why they (M$) didnt bolt on journaling and extended HPFS from OS/2, for which they actualy had (have?) support in the NT-series. /rant

      PS: Mods, pls do a little googleing before modding me into oblivion. Thanx.

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
    74. Re:not vetted/tried and true by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1
      Step 2: Take all the apps and make a GUI overhaul and unified installer/management tools.

      Step 3: Package in .isos/burn to disks

      Step 4:Package/Sale/Profit!!!

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
    75. Re:not vetted/tried and true by LibertineR · · Score: 1
      Well done. I was getting tired. I think IT is one of the few 'professions' where people feel free to comment about things they have never seen, never touched, but trust the word of mouth of others long enough to pontificate.

      Can you imagine construction workers having so much to say regarding Black & Decker power tools vs. Makita?

      Oh, wait...

    76. Re:not vetted/tried and true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what did you DO with that magical box? Was it handling Terabytes of mail? Or were you running a process - which doesn't actually deliver, store, archive, or handle real mail, but scan the contents one by one, and then forward them to the Exchange server.

      No. You're using it as a proxy, which in a proper Exchange organization, is correct. If you're running mission critical Exchange servers, you take the time to build the structure properly.

      Don't get me wrong. I've got Linux VMs running w/ 512MB of RAM using ASSP to intercept mail before it hits Exchange, due to the superior spam filtering. But I wouldn't DREAM of handling production corporate email systems without Exchange. Sendmail/Postfix/whatthefuckever may work for regular mail - millions of ISPs can't be wrong! - but the corporate world runs on Exchange.

  9. Re:EAT SHIT FAGGOTS!! by pembo13 · · Score: 1

    Mod parent up. May have found yet another use for Linux.

    --
    "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
  10. GPL'd community edition has limited MAPI clients? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Last time I looked on the Zarafa website, it looked like the free community (GPL) edition had a limited number of MAPI clients. I guess this is still the case? If so, it's not really a practical replacement for Exchange unless you pay for the commercial edition.

  11. Web app by pembo13 · · Score: 1

    Was kinda hoping that it was a desktop app. But I guess it's up to Thunderbird and KOffice/Kmail to get up to speed now.

    --
    "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    1. Re:Web app by Constantine+XVI · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think you mis-understand. This isn't meant to replace Outlook, the Windows-only desktop mail/groupware client. This is meant to replace Exchange, the Windows-only mail/groupware SERVER that Outlook is built to connect to, complete with cloning the MAPI protocol Outlook speaks. We won't have a drop-in Outlook replacement until Evolution finishes their MAPI code (IIRC in the next release).

      Of course, this is all moot in a lot of businesses if it can't connect to BES, which you (currently) need a Windows box for anyway.

      --
      "I think an etch-a-sketch with an ethernet port would beat IE7 in web standards compliance."
    2. Re:Web app by T-Bone-T · · Score: 1

      I won't have an Outlook replacement until I can create a weekly MWF recurring appointment, or something of that nature, without creating a separate recurring appointment for each occurrence during the week. I've been using that feature for years and was shocked to find Evolution didn't also do that.

    3. Re:Web app by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "I won't have an Outlook replacement until I can create a weekly MWF recurring appointment, or something of that nature, without creating a separate recurring appointment for each occurrence during the week."

      WFT is a MWF recurring appointment? And don't tell me RTFM or you will be KIA ASAP.

      On the other hand, in my opinion Kontact (the KDE groupware client-side solution) is vastly superior to Evolution for a PIM. Just in this case, I've been able to appoint recurrent events on Kontact for ages. I can define if the recurring event will be daily, weekly, monthly or yearly; I can tell, for instance, it'll be recurring each three weeks monday, tuesday and friday and, of course, I can make exceptions. To me, the only lacking (but weird) facility is that I can't define a protocol for a recurrent working-day event to be automatically moved if a day happens to be a holiday (say a repetition happens to be on december 25, which is a national holiday on my country; this kind of ocurrences I would want to be able to define either as an automatic exception or automatically moved to the next -or previous, working day; maybe to Dec26 or to the next monday if Dec25 happens to be friday).

    4. Re:Web app by T-Bone-T · · Score: 1

      An appointment that occurs every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. That's how college classes are typically scheduled.

    5. Re:Web app by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "An appointment that occurs every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. That's how college classes are typically scheduled."

      And your point is?

    6. Re:Web app by T-Bone-T · · Score: 1

      Read my first post. I'm pretty sure I explained it already.

  12. If it works as advertised... by pak9rabid · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ..I'll DEFINATELY be installing this for our company's mail server. I currently have Zimbra setup, which is very nice, but the bosses don't like it because it doesn't integrate into Outlook very well (iCalendar, contacts, etc), without the outlook connector that you have to pay for. No hate on Zimbra though...I absolutely love it's capabilities and ease-of-use, but it's a deal-breaker w/the management types if won't support the 'advanced' features in Outlook.

    1. Re:If it works as advertised... by JohnFluxx · · Score: 5, Funny

      DEFINITELY

      (If you're gonna write a word in all caps, spell it right :-) )

    2. Re:If it works as advertised... by VVelox · · Score: 1

      Looked at it once and found the entire thing to be a collection of undocumented code. On top of it, it is all implemented in a very ugly manner.

    3. Re:If it works as advertised... by Excelsior · · Score: 1

      If you are going to correct someone's spelling, don't use the word "gonna" to do it.

    4. Re:If it works as advertised... by pak9rabid · · Score: 1

      Looked at it once and found the entire thing to be a collection of undocumented code. On top of it, it is all implemented in a very ugly manner.

      If people didn't use software because of that reason, then nobody would use Windows

    5. Re:If it works as advertised... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Man, that word get me every time too. For some reason, "definately" seems more correct to me. Every single time I spell it, I spell it wrong. When the spell checker underlines it, I don't even see the mistake immediately. I must have some sort of a mental block for that one word...

    6. Re:If it works as advertised... by ColaMan · · Score: 3, Funny

      Aha, but it's not in ALL CAPS, is it?

      --

      You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
      There is a lot of hype here.
    7. Re:If it works as advertised... by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      Actually I did debate with myself over whether to use 'gonna'. I figured to use it to appear more friendly and to not appear to be a 'spelling nazi'

    8. Re:If it works as advertised... by kiddygrinder · · Score: 1

      Why not? he spelled it right.

      --
      This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.
    9. Re:If it works as advertised... by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      Dude, look at the root word and the descriptors around the word and you'd understand why it's spelled like that.
      De finite ly

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
    10. Re:If it works as advertised... by Degrees · · Score: 1

      For a while, my .sig here was "Define the finite space of spelling definitely - no 'a' exists there."

      --
      "The most sensible request of government we make is not, "Do something!" But "Quit it!"
    11. Re:If it works as advertised... by okmijnuhb · · Score: 1

      think "define" + "finite"

    12. Re:If it works as advertised... by asplake · · Score: 1

      DEFINATELY: mis-spelling of "definitely"; usually means "maybe"

  13. Re:EAT SHIT FAGGOTS!! by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 0

    Linux is for the garbage can!

    Sweet! What won't Linux run on these days?

    The used condoms inside the garbage can.

  14. Re:GPL'd community edition has limited MAPI client by Hatta · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The nice thing about GPL software is that it's easy to go in and change arbitrary limitations like that.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  15. Re:EAT SHIT FAGGOTS!! by uassholes · · Score: 1

    Nevermind. Someone moded it into another dimension.

  16. Patent encumbered? by timotten · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I did a quick test with this product a few weeks ago, and it sync'd well with my phone. My only concern was that Microsoft appears to assert patent claims relating to ActiveSync. Anyone have thoughts or experiences on using this product in the US market?

  17. "successful" is ambigous by bogaboga · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...Zarafa decided to put their successful Exchange server replacement under GPLv3. This is not just the typical mail-server-that-works-with-Outlook, it is the whole package including 100% MAPI, web access, tasks, iCal and Activesync...

    While I hail this development, I wonder what "successful" means in this story. Here are questions I might want answered:

    Was it "successful" at sales? If so where are the figures? I would not really praise them that much if the original goal - to make money, could not be reached making these fellas to opensource everything...much like what Netscape did years ago.

    Was it "successful" at actually replacing Exchange with no [significant] trouble for Systems Administrators? I need to know. How come it is not that known in IT circles? What's going on?

    1. Re:"successful" is ambigous by shaitand · · Score: 2, Interesting

      'Was it "successful" at actually replacing Exchange with no [significant] trouble for Systems Administrators? I need to know. How come it is not that known in IT circles? What's going on?'

      Probably because there are six to a dozen functional drop in replacements for exchange on the market that work fine. None of them are free as in beer or free as in speech though. Or if they are, they require an 'outlook connector' that is not.

    2. Re:"successful" is ambigous by Joe+Enduser · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Let me enlighten you a bit on the "success" factor for the sysadmin. I implemented this at a very small organization. While it does integrate nicely with Outlook, and handles the calendar and contacts stuff very nicely, it is the first time I am trying to manage a mailserver which blatantly has dropped mail regularly and silently, at least in a previous version. In the current stable version, an imap client cannot delete a mail from any folder. This is fun when a client does not actually move mails between folders or the trash, but copies first and then deletes, such as Apple Mail. Also, an update of the server version to a new main version, i.e. from 5.xx to 6.xx does not only involve a new version of the Outlook plugin on the clients, but also mandates a new user profile in Outlook. That is a lot of work. I hope that opensourcing this stuff eventually makes it more maintainable, but I have not been able to find out about access to the actual source repositories which might enable actual collaboration on the product.

    3. Re:"successful" is ambigous by Anders · · Score: 1

      In the current stable version, an imap client cannot delete a mail from any folder. This is fun when a client does not actually move mails between folders or the trash, but copies first and then deletes, such as Apple Mail.

      Copy+delete is the only way to move mail with IMAP. Unfortunately, there is no atomic move command.

    4. Re:"successful" is ambigous by Joe+Enduser · · Score: 1

      Thanks for pointing that out. In that case, my understanding of the issue is not entirely correct. Fact is, that moving messages in Apple Mail in Zarafa 6.03 results in duplicate mails, which in other clients only happens when moving messages between accounts.

  18. In other news . . . by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Funny

    Office Depot, Office Max, and Staples reported a shortage of office chairs in the supply chain. When asked, representatives were unsure to the exact nature of the shortage.

    "According to our suppliers, someone in Redmond, Washington has decided to corner the market on office chairs," one company spokesman said.

    ----------BREAKING NEWS-----------

    This just in! According to NORAD, the nation's defense system went on alert after controllers detected a large number of unknown flying objects coming from the Pacific Northwest. While the status has not entered DEFCON 1, a spokesman for the Defense Department assured the public that this was a precautionary measure as the objects themselves do not appear to be very large and that they originated from the Northwest rules out an nuclear attack from either China or the former Soviet Union.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    1. Re:In other news . . . by TechForensics · · Score: 1

      As if M$ cares. Already you can't legally buy XP for most business use, and Vista for sure will not work with this product-- for long.

      --
      Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
    2. Re:In other news . . . by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      BTW, Vista comes with downgrade rights. Most businesses today buy a Vista license but install XP.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  19. Also by Icarus1919 · · Score: 3, Funny

    can be measured to be 1050 dog-years of work.

    1. Re:Also by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      Imperial or Metric dog years?

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
  20. GPL MAPI? by chill · · Score: 1

    I'll believe it when they recover from the slashdotting and I have the code on my servers. Last I knew, MAPI required licenses from Microsoft. Can anyone confirm that the GPL version support MAPI access such as Outlook 2003, 2007 and Outlook Anywhere access on PDA and phones?

    --
    Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    1. Re:GPL MAPI? by millux · · Score: 1

      Only for the Exchange RPC MAPI provider you need a license. Zarafa has it's own SOAP based MAPI provider.

  21. Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1, Informative

    Zarafa is available under the Affero GPLv3, which has some rather critical differences from the regular GPLv3, namely that a lot of people don't consider it to be a Free Software license. Specifically, it has a lot of properties of a EULA in that you can't modify it as you see fit even if you don't plan to distribute it.

    Rats. I was looking forward to this.

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    1. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by nawcom · · Score: 1

      Zarafa is available under the Affero GPLv3, which has some rather critical differences from the regular GPLv3, namely that a lot of people don't consider it to be a Free Software license. Specifically, it has a lot of properties of a EULA in that you can't modify it as you see fit even if you don't plan to distribute it.

      Rats. I was looking forward to this.

      Well, that's EXTREMELY different than GPL. So they call it the Affero GPLv3? as in it's like GPL, but not? What the hell.

    2. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by gamanimatron · · Score: 5, Informative

      Hey, look! FUD!

      --
      cogito ergo dubito
    3. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by compro01 · · Score: 1

      I agree, as the FSF lists it as GPL compatible and appears to endorse it for programs that are used over a network, which an exchange replacement certainly would be.

      http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html#AGPLv3.0

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    4. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by zx-15 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Somebody mod parent down.

      http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/agpl-3.0.html
      "Preamble

      The GNU Affero General Public License is a free, copyleft license for software and other kinds of works, specifically designed to ensure cooperation with the community in the case of network server software."

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affero_General_Public_License
      "The Affero General Public License, often abbreviated as Affero GPL and AGPL (and sometimes informally called the Affero license) refers to two distinct, though historically related, free software licenses: (1) the Affero General Public License, version 1 (published by Affero, Inc. in March 2002, and based closely on the GNU General Public License, version 2 (GPLv2)), and (2) the GNU Affero General Public License, version 3 (published by the Free Software Foundation in November 2007, and closely resembling the GNU General Public License, version 3 (GPLv3))."

      If FSF considers it to be free software, how it is not free software, and by a lot of people you mean who?

    5. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Specifically, it has a lot of properties of a EULA

      If you put the GPL (any version) in a popup box when an application first starts, guess what it becomes?

    6. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 4, Informative

      If FSF considers it to be free software, how it is not free software

      One of the requirements of Free Software is "[t]he freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1)." The Affero GPL explicitly denies this freedom:

      If the Program as you received it is intended to interact with users through a computer network and if, in the version you received, any user interacting with the Program was given the opportunity to request transmission to that user of the Program's complete source code, you must not remove that facility from your modified version of the Program or work based on the Program, and must offer an equivalent opportunity for all users interacting with your Program through a computer network to request immediate transmission by HTTP of the complete source code of your modified version or other derivative work.

      I don't care who endorses the AGPL; by the FSF's own definitions, it is not Free Software. Get pissed off and mod me down all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the AGPL is a EULA in that it governs the behavior of people who merely run the software, even if they do not distribute it (by any reasonable definition of the word "distribute" that has been in common usage during the history of computing).

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    7. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by vux984 · · Score: 1

      I'm looking at:

      http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/agpl-3.0.html

      And I can't find the snippet you quoted as part of AGPL3, including the part you bolded. Please clarify.

    8. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Rashkae · · Score: 1

      The poster has it backwards. AGPL doesn't mean you can't modify.. but it does mean you have to make your modifications available, even if you don't distribute a binary. AGPL is GPL for application providers (who otherwise would be able to skirt gpl entirely by never distributing a binary executable)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affero_General_Public_License

    9. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Kjella · · Score: 2, Insightful

      FUD? Well, I'll let others be the judge of that but the difference between GPLv3 and Affero GPLv3 are HUGE:

      "Notwithstanding any other provision of this License, if you modify the Program, your modified version must prominently offer all users interacting with it remotely through a computer network an opportunity to receive the Corresponding Source (...)"

      This is the FSF on steroids, it's the anti-ASP license and it's also unsuitable for any software you want to improve internally and not share if it in any way interacts with externals. It's still not an EULA as creating derivates is one of the copyright holder's exclusive rights (except fair use) but it's definately stretching copyright law to the absolute limit in order to force the release of code.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    10. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by gamanimatron · · Score: 1

      Lots of informative stuff

      Oooo! FUD kryptonite!

      --
      cogito ergo dubito
    11. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by just_another_sean · · Score: 1

      It's obvious the AGPL is designed to protect a user's freedom to understand the code running on *their* machine. It is essentially designed to ensure that people can not take a network based program, make changes to it and utilize it on public networks without sharing the source.

      It is so a developer can decide that they don't want people setting up servers using their code that end users then access without sharing their modifications with those end users. It's all well and good to say "hey, I'm just using it! I don't need to share my changes with you." but when your running some type of web based or net based software where the code is downloaded and executed on an end user's PC you are distributing that code in a binary format. Not sharing the source with your modifications to it , to me anyway, defeats the purpose of free software.

      freedom 1 guarentees *me* that I can study *your* changes when I run *your* code on my computer, or my phone, or my dvr or my tivo, or whatever. If I get a *modified* copy of it from your server in binary format to run on my device I want the freedom to get the code as well.

      The FSF came up with a license that's suits the modern age of ajax and SaaS. It allows a developer to *choose*, yes it is the developer's choice, to go with a license that ensures that, if their code is modified and used in a network environment where the code is de facto distributed to be run on a users device, all of these users running the code can also get the full package to study, modify and pass to the next user if they choose.

      The FSF left this language out of the GPL v3 intentionally and left it in the AGPL because it suits a different type of program. Developers need to decide what model their software falls under and use the appropriate license.

      Personally I applaud the FSF's ability to come up with both options without violating the spirit of free software.

      I can understand how this could be twisted in a legalese kind of way to meet your view of it but IMO to say that the AGPL is not a free software license is disengenuous at best and seems to me to be nothing more then trolling.

      --
      Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
    12. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Not true.

      It is a notification of your rights to distribute, not use.

      The agreement is not about being an end user, it is about being a distributor, even if it is displayed to someone merely being an end user.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    13. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that clause seems to deny you...the ability to deny others the source code.

      Basically it says if you got something that allowed people to get the code, you too must allow others to request the code.

      No?

    14. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by William+Ager · · Score: 1

      What you are writing is not actually part of the AGPL v3; it's actually part of the AGPL v1 (there is no v2). The wording has changed in v3, but the meaning is essentially the same.

      It's unfortunate that many people here seem to be misinterpreting what you are saying. The GPL places no restrictions on software beyond normal copyright law; it only gives more freedom, by allowing distribution as well. I had always thought of this as a fundamental part of the GPL and the RMS idea of copyleft in general. There's no need to accept the GPL to use the software.

      The AGPL, however, doesn't follow the same principle, and does restrict users more than normal copyright law, which in the minds of many makes it a EULA, or a licence for use, instead of just distribution. Users of AGPL software can't use the software on a network without agreeing to the licence, even if they could do so without violating copyright law*; there are also restrictions relating to source availability that restrict the modifications that can be made to the code.

      I can understand the point of the AGPL, but believe it goes too far in trying to enforce Free Software ideals, sacrificing the original principles behind the licences' designs in order to close the loopholes exploited by a few unscrupulous companies.

      It's also the sort of licence that could easily end up causing all sorts of problems when used in situations where the details suddenly become impractical, much like the disaster of the GFDL with Wikipedia, where people realized after choosing the licence that using a picture from Wikipedia on a single-page printout would require several pages of licence text to be stapled to it. The AGPL v1 had major problems with that (imagine using AGPL code for a server in an embedded device, and then having to stuff all the source code onto it and add an HTTP server to transfer it); luckily, it does appear that the AGPL v3 is somewhat better in this regard, simply requiring that the source code be available somewhere on a network.

      * I understand that in many cases, this might be a bit more complex than just use being allowed under copyright law. It's quite possible that the software might need to distribute copyrightable material to network users. However, this is by no means necessary, and such visible portions could be replaced if required.

    15. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey look, more FUD!

      How in the fuck are you someone who "merely runs the software" if you are concerned about making modifications to it?

      Get as pissed off as you want buddy, the AGPL3 is the freest license there is.

    16. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Crud, I quoted an older version (that Google listed higher than the one you linked at that moment, go figure). The current version is:

      Notwithstanding any other provision of this License, if you modify the Program, your modified version must prominently offer all users interacting with it remotely through a computer network (if your version supports such interaction) an opportunity to receive the Corresponding Source of your version by providing access to the Corresponding Source from a network server at no charge, through some standard or customary means of facilitating copying of software. This Corresponding Source shall include the Corresponding Source for any work covered by version 3 of the GNU General Public License that is incorporated pursuant to the following paragraph.

      The principle is the same: you are not allowed to modify it in certain ways, even if you do not plan to distribute copies of it.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    17. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      AGPL is GPL for application providers (who otherwise would be able to skirt gpl entirely by never distributing a binary executable)

      Just like we were skirting the GPL when I was a sysadmin at an ISP and provided shell services to our customers? They could run bash and vi and lots of other GPL and other FOSS code, but we didn't make the source available to them. We even changed some of the code to work better with our system, and we didn't make those changes directly available to customers (even if we did propagate them upstream).

      For some reason, people decided that web applications are a whole new kind of client-server system than has ever existed before.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    18. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Rashkae · · Score: 1

      If you provided your changes upstream, obviously you weren't skirting the gpl, in fact or spirit. But complaining that AGPL forces everyone to play by the same rule is just the BSD license whining all over again.. yes, I get it, BSD is *really* free, as in no strings, and GPL/AGPL has strings attached. We all know what those strings are, and those who adopted the GPL license like the share and share alike strings. So please, if you must ride the Whahhhbulance, at least don't do so by sreadding lies like "properties of a EULA in that you can't modify it as you see fit."

    19. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The AGPL is the GPL for webapps. The purpose of webapps is to provide the functionality of a native app without the need to install it on the client. Because of the special nature of webapps, running them is comparable to distributing a native app. The only meaningful way for a webapp to be free software is if the user, not only the provider, of that webapp can download, modify and redistribute the source. It's just the analogous clause to the GPL's provision that you must provide the source with the binaries. The AGPL is recommended by the Free Software Foundation. That you say it's not free as in I-can-do-with-it-as-I-fucking-please is irrelevant, that was never the definition of free software.

      To make a finer point, webapps are in fact programs that run on the server AND the client. But the javascript that runs in the browser is only part of the code, and it's often obfuscated in that it is generated from a higher-language source. Even more so with Flash, etc. where what runs in your browser is already compiled.

    20. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even 'freer' than the No Restrictions License? It has one sentence: There is no restrictions on use, modification or distribution of this code.

    21. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no need to get pissed off. One can point how that you are completely wrong in a calm manner. You are taking an extreme position, that AGPL is not free software.
      The point of both GPL and AGPL is that they take away your freedom to keep the changes you make to the software secret. So, both are taking away freedom, in the name of greater software freedom.

      AGPL tries to keep the code of software, that provides services, in the public sphere, in a way that is quite similar to GPL. I think calling it "not" free is creating an argument where there doesn't need to be one. The real argument is whether AGPL is mostly free or completely free.

      And who cares. Unless you want to make changes, and keep those changes closed source, why bother debating it?

    22. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      at least don't do so by sreadding lies like "properties of a EULA in that you can't modify it as you see fit."

      Factually, you can't. This is inarguable. You are explicitly prohibited from making certain modifications. This is contrary to the GPL which is only concerned with modifications in software that you distribute, not software that you execute.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    23. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      The purpose of webapps is to provide the functionality of a native app without the need to install it on the client.

      How is this different from console apps or Citrix-published apps or even mailing list software? What is new an special about the web that justifies this radical change in the scope of the GPL?

      To clarify, I'm a huge fan of RMS and the FSF. I've even given memberships as birthday presents. I've released my most recent software under the GPLv3 because I think it's a fine license. I just think the FSF is totally off base this time.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    24. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by mweather · · Score: 1

      The principle is the same: you are not allowed to modify it in certain ways, even if you do not plan to distribute copies of it.

      No, the principle is entirely different. The version you initially quoted says you can't modify the parts of the code that provide access tot the source, if such a feature exists. The current version says you must provide access to the code remotely. It says nothing about that feature being part of the code, or about removing such a feature if it does exist. You can modify whatever you want, so long as you make the source available. Further, it specifically exempts you if you don't plan on distributing the work.

    25. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      You just described the GPL. If the AGPL was as you said, they would be identical.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    26. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by AnyoneEB · · Score: 2, Informative

      The difference is who has the right to ask for the source. The GPL says anyone who gets the binaries can ask for the source. The Affero GPL says that anyone who connects to the program running on a server can ask for the source.

      --
      Centralization breaks the internet.
    27. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That passage is in the version 1 of the license, proudly displayed e.g. on http://www.affero.org/oagpl.html but not in the version 3 of the license, available for example at http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/agpl-3.0.html. On the first page there is this notice

      "Note: The GNU Affero General Public License version 3 has been released. It follows the same basic structure as this license, but it is based on version 3 of the GNU GPL, and you can combine modules released under GPLv3 and the GNU AGPLv3. If you were thinking about releasing your software under this license, we recommend you use the GNU AGPLv3 instead."

      It was an interesting point you brought up but fortunately it's been addressed.

    28. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by vux984 · · Score: 1

      Crud, I quoted an older version (that Google listed higher than the one you linked at that moment, go figure). The current version is:

      Ah. Ok.

      The principle is the same: you are not allowed to modify it in certain ways, even if you do not plan to distribute copies of it.

      Sorry. I'm not seeing that in the "current version".

      "Notwithstanding any other provision of this License, if you modify the Program, your modified version must prominently offer all users interacting with it remotely through a computer network (if your version supports such interaction) an opportunity to receive the Corresponding Source of your version by providing access to the Corresponding Source from a network server at no charge, through some standard or customary means of facilitating copying of software. This Corresponding Source shall include the Corresponding Source for any work covered by version 3 of the GNU General Public License that is incorporated pursuant to the following paragraph."

      Lets simplify that down a bit:

      If you make a change, and your modified version is available for users to interact with over a network, then you must make the source of your modified version available to those people in a reasonable way.

      I can't see how you can possibly construe that to mean that there is a situation in which you aren't allowed to modify the source. You are always allowed to modify the source.

      The AGPL is designed for 'web servers' and 'web services', where, typically lots of people might use your customized software over the network, but none of them is are actaully given a copy. The AGPL says, "Hey, if its licencend with the AGPL, these users can have the source too."

      If I set up a terminal server and load a customized office suite with GPL license, and you remote in and use it. Under the GPL I don't have to make my modified source available to you, because you are remoting in to my cusomized copy, rather than me distributing a customized copy to you. Under the AGPL, remoting in also triggers the 'you must make source available'.

      That's really the only difference that I can see.
      And I fail to see how it prevents you from making changes.

    29. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Taxman415a · · Score: 1

      This is really off topic now, but the AGPL was written in order to deal with the realities of moving to software as a service. So that provision which you have highlighted is the equivalent restriction to the GPL not allowing you to distribute binary versions without distributing source code. That is an additional restriction designed to ensure user freedom, the same as the provision in the AGPL. Otherwise people could run free software on a publicly accessible server, modify the heck out of it, but since they are not distributing it, they don't have to release the source code. The user then loses the freedom to analyze that source code and know what is going on with it, even though that program running on the server may be a very important program to them. So just like the restricted freedom that the GPL carries in order to protect future freedom for others, that is what the AGPL is doing, and the FSF considers that necessary. I'm sure they'd be all ears if you have a more elegant solution.

    30. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      And I fail to see how it prevents you from making changes.

      Basically, there are a class of changes you can't make: ones that remove a link to your source tarball.

      Which brings up a very real practical question: how up to date does the source you offer have to be? Completely current, as in if you use vim to tweak a PHP script, the change needs to be available instantaneously? If so, then the only way to handle that is pretty much be offering dynamic tarballs of your production code - being very, very careful to strip out your config files so that you're not uploading your database passwords or merchant account numbers.

      At any rate, it sounds like there's a pretty effective workaround. While your application has to prominently offer the source, the Squid proxy sitting in front of it might decide to remove all <div class="source"> tags.

      What most irks me is that I could set up a server to publish KMail over X11, and this would be fine. If I set up a server to publish, say, an AGPL version of a modified Squirrelmail, then I have to make extra provisions for redistributing source. Wouldn't it be fun if Apache licensed httpd under a similar license? libc? The TCP stack?

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    31. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Basically, there are a class of changes you can't make: ones that remove a link to your source tarball."

      You are wrong. You can indeed change or remove that link *provided* you produced your own alternate means for the user to remotely download the sources too.

      "how up to date does the source you offer have to be?"

      There's only one kind of "currency" regarding that kind of cases and it's "there's no currency". On the standard GPL you must provide the source that made up to the binaries you distributed; on the AGPL it's just the same: which sources? heck, the ones needed to build the application I interact with.

      "If so, then the only way to handle that is pretty much be offering dynamic tarballs of your production code - being very, very careful to strip out your config files"

      That wouldn't be a license problem: "do you want to use this code? These are the constraints that I, as the coder, want to exercise, take it or leave it". On the other hand, it is not a technical problem either. It is you the one that talk about using vim to edit a production-live environment; it is *you* the technical problem and liability, not the license. In order to provide the source code to match your production environment, you just need to mildly adapt your code promotion procedures so your ready-to-production codebase is just copied to an end-user reacheable environment at the same time it moves into production.

      I haven't read the AGPL except for the paragraphs found in this thread, since I haven't find a case of me using software under such license but, to me it seems it honors just the same phylosophy that moved GPL from version 2 to 3. The tivoization case was found by Stallman to be so against GPL's phylosophy as to adapt it; AGPL seems to target exactly the same kind of problem only on a different environment (the ASPs).

      "What most irks me is that..."

      Is that it irks you, nothing more, nothing less. You are in exactly the same case than the BSD vs GPL discussions: one side will state that they prefer what BSD offers, and the other will find the GPL "ideal" to be highly preferable. Well, you find that having to offer the sources for an application you happen to allow by remote X is not the way you want it; others find they don't want to offer their valuable modifications to a codebase just because they happen to distribute binaries of the modified result.

      On my humble opinion, I think that *if* you accept the GPL because of the underlying ideal, you should accept both GPLv3 and/or AGPL as a natural evolution of the ideal that created the GPL on first place.

    32. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "freedom 1 guarentees *me* that I can study *your* changes when I run *your* code on my computer, or my phone, or my dvr or my tivo, or whatever. If I get a *modified* copy of it from your server in binary format to run on my device I want the freedom to get the code as well."

      That's quite questionable.

      On one hand, if I get from your server, say, a Java applet, I think that would be considered redistribution even by the "standard" GPL, so you should provide me the applet's source code. Would that mean that you should provide me whatever code for your backend server, say the code for the servlets? Probably you would agree that the server side code is not needed to be distributed in this case. By the way, that's exactly how Red Hat understands it when they provide the source code for the RHN client but won't publish their server solution (RHN satellite notwithstanding).

      On the other hand, if we are talking about "pure" script output, which seems to be the case you are referring to, what does indeed run on the client computer? The modified server? No, I say that's not what runs on the client machine. All that runs on the client machine is a bunch of human readeable HTML and Javascript code -and you already have the source code for this; just ask your browser to show the source code for the current page. And what about the server-side code that produced the output you recieved? No sir, that code never run on a client, only on my server and, obviously, code running on *my* server and only on *my* server can't be considered to be distributed, right?

      I'm not trying to make a point about which is the "proper" way to go or if the AGPL is more "on the Stallman way" than the GPLv3 or not, but that certainly the server-side code for a SaaS environment is quite a different beast than a "typical" binary regarding distribution and its implications.

    33. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by zyzko · · Score: 1

      being very, very careful to strip out your config files so that you're not uploading your database passwords or merchant account numbers.

      Being a devils advocate here - what is a "config file"? If everything in a software package is released under AGPL would it not be the users right to receive the AGPL-licensed config file as well with modifications? What if the config file is in some programming language? Does it contain some SQL specific to your site? Is that a change you must redistribute to every user?

      AGPL can be a very nasty trap. Read it carefully and understand it before deploying software licensed under it - either in a home/hobby or corporate environvement. It's "clean, pure and good-smelling" purpose is to provide an incentive for ASPs to release their changes to say - for a webmail or mobile sync software, it's true nature is a way for makers of those software to sell their closed source variants with a license to permit making site-specific changes without distribution while still being "open source".

      Not that there is nothing wrong with that, and it happens with traditional GPL as well, but I think vendors should be more straightforward with the real reasons of going AGPL.

    34. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by zyzko · · Score: 1

      But there is a fundamental difference. Someone *else* is providing the server and everything else that goes with it to provide the end-user experience. This is different from having a right to know/modify something that runs on your computer. It is true that SaaS has changed software distribution models and AGPL has a place in this landscape.

      And in this case it is ironic that the company provides the server software under AGPL, thus making it impossible for anyone to make site-specific changes or their own extensions for their customers without publishing changes, but their Outlook-plugin is closed source restricted with 3 user limit...

    35. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right. If a hypothetical config.php ships with the application, then you're compelled to offer it for download if you modify it.

      I really don't get the AGPL love-in. I think people are so focused on the high ideals behind it that they're ignoring its very serious problems.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    36. Re:Not GPL, maybe not Free Software by renoX · · Score: 1

      1) the word 'Free' is a trap: it has too many significations that you can discuss forever whether something is Free or not.

      2) Any fixed definition such as the Free Software guidelines doesn't capture the whole spirit of a set of people, maybe the FSF Free Software definition must be changed?

      3) the GPL has some restrictions for the software developers that the MIT license in order to ensure that the software stays accessible, the AGPL has even more restrictions for the software developers to ensure that the software stays accessible even when it's running on a distant server.
      It seems quite coherent to me, so why are you all pissed off about it?
      Don't use it if you don't like it!
      I don't like the LGPL for example because of the static vs dynamic linking distinction, but I don't make such fuss..

  22. just the PHP stack ? by johnjones · · Score: 1

    they used to produce a PHP implementation of active sync I have not seen a MAPI (outlook compatible) version or anything other than a webmail....

    has anyone actually got any details on the technical side of things I can get to their website as drupal keeps buckling under slashdot effect

    can I simply hook up outlook to their server ?

    regards

    John Jones

  23. Sounds Great for SMB by joelleo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Big things missing though - No public folders, which allow automated, customized workflow processes, no single instance store (each attachment is a separate file within the message store,) limited support (enterprise class support 24x7 is > 15,000 euros and their business hours aren't conducive to US business support - GMT+1) and it runs on linux instead of bsd *grin*

    With that being said, I can see where a LOT of businesses will be able to make extensive use of this. Best of luck to them!

    --
    "In the end, there is simply no weapon more devastating than the truth, delivered in just the right way." - tnk1
    1. Re:Sounds Great for SMB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No public folders

      Eeek. Public folders are *the* reason a couple of businesses I know run exchange. One small business I know of in particular can't function without their global calendar.

      I remember MS clients threw massive fits when public folders were removed from Exchange 2007. Such big fits that SP1 added them back in.

    2. Re:Sounds Great for SMB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I saw Public Folders right there in the web demo!

    3. Re:Sounds Great for SMB by joelleo · · Score: 1

      You missed the fact they aren't public folders in the same vein as Exchange public folders:

      from the feature doc

      http://download.zarafa.com/zarafa/en/Featureslist620.pdf

      "Public folders Keep a central calendar and contact folders wo(sic) which everbody has access"

      In Exchange, Public folders can of course maintain central calendar, contact, mail, document etc repositories. They also can be mail enabled (you can send and receive email between properly configured public folders) and can have business intelligence processing performed on objects they receive, via forms. This includes creating new forms, forwarding new messages, email replies, interaction with other public folders and THEIR forms etc etc. Public folders in Exchange can essentially perform business processing without human interaction beyond creating the forms (and troubleshooting them when they fail ;)

      --
      "In the end, there is simply no weapon more devastating than the truth, delivered in just the right way." - tnk1
    4. Re:Sounds Great for SMB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Zarafa has public folder support. You just have to create it after the installation.

      There is also the brazillian office.. The guys there should be able to speak englisch as well.. and AFAIK Brazil is GMT-4, so that's at least a bit US compatible ;-)

  24. Re:EAT SHIT FAGGOTS!! by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 4, Funny

    Can you imagine a Beowolf cluster of those? Take THAT, big iron.

  25. Re:EAT SHIT FAGGOTS!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    [citation needed]

  26. Blackberry Enterprise Server by pdileonardo · · Score: 1

    Anybody know for sure if this works with a Blackberry Enterprise Server (BES)?

    1. Re:Blackberry Enterprise Server by joelleo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not until Q4 2008

      From the features pdf

      http://download.zarafa.com/zarafa/en/Featureslist620.pdf

      "Integration with the Blackberry Enterprise Server to get email, calendar items, contacts and tasks real-time on your Blackberry. Available Q4 2008"

      --
      "In the end, there is simply no weapon more devastating than the truth, delivered in just the right way." - tnk1
    2. Re:Blackberry Enterprise Server by erroneus · · Score: 1

      That would be an important and even critical issue for me. Further, Active Directory integration would also be of critical importance.

      I'd love nothing more than to get my company off of Microsoft in every way conceivable, but I have a lot of people who know no other way for many things and to accept an abrupt change in levels of service aren't in the cards for me. I have a lot of tweaks and services I would have to consider as well -- fancy calendars and functions, public folders and that sort of thing.

      What I downloaded was a 5.3MB tarball. I would find it utterly AMAZING to handle all of these things within such a small program. I will be trying this out, but given the size of the download, I don't expect much more than email.

    3. Re:Blackberry Enterprise Server by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      I will be trying this out, but given the size of the download, I don't expect much more than email.

      And you shouldn't. You don't even get shared calendars in the free version, which is arguably one of the big reasons people use Exchange to begin with.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    4. Re:Blackberry Enterprise Server by erroneus · · Score: 1

      Ah thanks for that.

      The more I see about this, the more I realize what a half-hearted attempted at "free" this is. They should consider taking a page out of Sun's playbook when it comes to releasing free/open source software.

  27. Still looks like everyone else by ipstatic · · Score: 1

    I am currently looking for a groupware solution for our company... But everyone looks to be bumping heads. If someone in the community would just use Postfix, Cyrus or Dovecot and other open source technologies instead of writing their own, maybe there would be a decent groupware solution for linux. Egroupware is close, but their interface sucks and is overly complicated. Zimbra looks nice, but requires their own versions of everything, plus their license is not total open source. Citadel is also close, but they too have a crapy looking interface and also have a different language for a lot of stuff (Rooms etc). Does anyone know of a good groupware solution for Linux?

    1. Re:Still looks like everyone else by juniorkindergarten · · Score: 1

      My company has been using zimbra for a year and a half since 4.5.9 on CentOS. Even though CentOS is not officially supported and you choose the equivelent RH version for Zimbra it works just fine. I guess by some standards we are a small enterprise with 60 email users (100+ employees/contractors not needing email), our email volume inc spam is around 75-200k msgs per day.
      The layout compared to outlook is very similar and my training time for our users was negligable. It was like ducks to water. Outlook and exchange were dumped in its entirety after a 1 year trial of 25 users. Tools to migrate from exchange worked exactly as advertised. Users who were on standard imap/openwebmail mail slid over just as easily. I only had 2 "power" outlooks users complain for a few days after the migration

      --
      "Every security scheme that is based on secrets eventually fails." - Steve Jobs
    2. Re:Still looks like everyone else by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "But everyone looks to be bumping heads. If someone in the community would just use Postfix, Cyrus or Dovecot and other open source technologies instead of writing their own, maybe there would be a decent groupware solution for linux."

      You surely are not doing your homework. Kolab has its own share of defects, but reinventing the wheel is certainly not one of them using OpenLDAP, Postfix, Cyrus IMAP, Apache, SASL and OpenSSL.

  28. Oh Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really? A lot of people doesn't think it's a free software license? Who are these people, and where can I see a reference, please.

    I mean, it's about the only article left on Wikipedia that doesn't have either a "Critisism" or "Controversy" section.

    Not saying you aren't correct, but I am saying that you are making spurios and loose claims. In other words, "[citation needed]". ;)

    1. Re:Oh Really? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Google for the debate on debian-legal about whether it complies with the DFSG. Anyway, the crux of the matter is that authors can embed unmodifiable sections in their code, and you are not allowed to alter that code even if you will not be giving copies of it away. The theory is that you're distributing the output of the program, which is part of the program itself - or some nonsense like that. This goes against decades of precedent for the idea of usage versus distribution.

      For example, if you VNC to a machine on my home LAN, you could potentially run Quickbooks. It would be executed on my machine and exporting its display to yours, but no one would ever consider this to be distribution. However, if I were running an AGPL'ed equivalent of Quickbooks on my home web server and you accessed it, the authors of the AGPL would claim that I distributed a copy of that application to you. That's their legal theory behind restricting my usage of it.

      Another poster said I was spreading FUD. Yeah, I am, and with good reason. I fear that some project I depend on may adopt the AGPL. I'm uncertain that I'd be able to use it given the additional restrictions that it piles on top of the GPL, to the point that I actually doubt it.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  29. It's not GPLv3 It's Affero GPL v3. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Which is an important difference...

  30. Re:In other news . . .MOD PARENT UP! by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 2, Informative

    Parent was obviously modded down by some newbie to moderation who didn't get the joke, doesn't understand throwing chairs in Redmond, and modded it off-topic because he didn't understand it. This is a lousy excuse for moderation!

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  31. Re:GPL'd community edition has limited MAPI client by nine-times · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I hadn't really thought about that, but... then why doesn't someone fork it and drop the restriction altogether?

  32. Re:GPL'd community edition has limited MAPI client by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How hard can it be to undo that, if you have the GPL source?

  33. Re:EAT SHIT HOMOPHOBES!! by roaddemon · · Score: 4, Funny

    Only because the people with Linux experience and the people with condom experience are disjoint sets.

  34. Oh, not this shit again? Come on.... by LibertineR · · Score: 4, Informative
    Quotas anyone? OWA?

    Drop in replacement, you say? Will MOSS or CRM play with it? Will it pick up AD rules and GPOs? What about BCM and Project Server?

    OR, is it just another glorified POP/IMAP box?

    I read the feature set from the web site.

    I know Exchange, I was in the original product group way back when. This AINT no DROP IN REPLACEMENT.

    That said, for what it does, good for them!

    But people should watch their words. Side by side against Exchange 2007, it would not be a fair fight.

    1. Re:Oh, not this shit again? Come on.... by shaitand · · Score: 2, Funny

      'OWA?

      Drop in replacement, you say? Will MOSS or CRM play with it? Will it pick up AD rules and GPOs? What about BCM and Project Server? '

      Can you say bloat, bloat, and more bloat?

    2. Re:Oh, not this shit again? Come on.... by LibertineR · · Score: 1
      Oh, your answer has me sooooo in awe!

      "Drop in Replacement" wasn't MY words.

      Say what you want about the product, but MUCH of Exchange's value comes from what it works with.

      But fine, I'll bite.....

      QUOTAS?!?!? Kinda important, wouldn't you say?

    3. Re:Oh, not this shit again? Come on.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep..bring in OCS and there is no other product that comes close.

    4. Re:Oh, not this shit again? Come on.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ehrmmm, am I missing something?
      http://zarafa.com/content/features
      And I quote: 'Active Directory / LDAP integration
      Zarafa can be coupled in existing Active Directory or LDAP based environments. Zarafa will automatically import all your users into the Zarafa database. New users are real-time synchronised to the Zarafa database. Via an additional schema attributes like quota and aliases can be configured.'

      So should work I guess...

    5. Re:Oh, not this shit again? Come on.... by LibertineR · · Score: 1
      AD Integration can mean a lot of things.

      It could mean that they do a simple ACL ping. That doesn't mean its going to enforce OU or GPO restrictions. If so, that's awesome, but I seriously doubt it.

    6. Re:Oh, not this shit again? Come on.... by LibertineR · · Score: 1
      And, what do they mean by "via an additional schema"? Sorry to nitpick, but I dont need no schema changes to enforce that stuff in Exchange out of the box.

      Instead of "Drop in, they should say, "wedge in, or pry in"?

    7. Re:Oh, not this shit again? Come on.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe losing BCM would be ok, but without OWA, MOSS, CRM, AD rules and GPOs, and with nothing more than POP/IMAP support, you'd actually be SOL, IMHO

    8. Re:Oh, not this shit again? Come on.... by shaitand · · Score: 1

      'Say what you want about the product, but MUCH of Exchange's value comes from what it works with. '

      Most of the value of exchange comes from interacting with Outlook. Outlook and not exchange is the 'killer app'. Specifically, Outlook's calendaring feature. I've never known anyone who was particularly in love with outlook outside of that.

      85% of business conducted in this country is in the hands of small business and in a small business AD represents an additional administrative overhead and not an administrative ease. Much of this small business sector uses the Outlook email/calendar combo and this supports that well.

      'QUOTAS?!?!? Kinda important, wouldn't you say?'

      And this solution supports them... along with every other major MTA.

      Whether or not the support for users and quotas is implemented via the windows authentication and directory scheme is really a non-issue. In many organizations the Exchange server is the last bit of windows they are stuck having in the server room.

    9. Re:Oh, not this shit again? Come on.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quotas anyone?

      Yes

      > OWA?

      Web access, yes, full functionality unlike OWA.

      > Drop in replacement, you say?

      Yes RTFA, or the submission title.

      >Will MOSS or CRM play with it?

      Any "Customer Relationship Management" software designed to work with it, will, just like exchange...Oh you mean will Microsoft's OWN exchange add ons work with a competitors replacement, not a serious question is it, they barely work with their own products. They said its was a replacement for exchange, Not Microsoft' entire won't play well with others product line.

      > Will it pick up AD rules and GPOs?

      Last I checked exchange 2007 didn't even integrate properly into AD, I don't see why anything else should.

      > What about BCM and Project Server?

      BCM is a terrible excuse to install SQL server on client workstations for no purpose, and adds little functionality. I have been asked to remove it, but I have never been asked to install it. Project is ok I guess if you want to hire someone to maintain it full time, Projects servers inability to interoperate with any standards bases mail servers is a fault of Project server, not the other products.

      >OR, is it just another glorified POP/IMAP box?

      No, it speaks pop/imap/smtp/LDAP/openldap whatever outlook uses and several others , All PROPERLY unlike exchange, in addition it works other MTA agents Zarafa didn't write, also unlike exchange.

      >I read the feature set from the web site.

      No it does not seem like you did. Try again http://download.zarafa.com/zarafa/en/Featureslist620.pdf

      >I know Exchange,

      No it does not seem like you do.

      >I was in the original product group way back when.

      Ah bias, please disclose more, were you head of standards compliance ?

      >This AINT no DROP IN REPLACEMENT.

      Your correct at last, anything that can replace exchanges functionality that is well designed would be a huge improvement, Its hardly fair to call it a replacement, It should be called a drop in upgrade.

      >But people should watch their words.

      Pot, Kettle.

      >Side by side against Exchange 2007, it would not be a fair fight.

      Exchange 2003 Side by side, against exchange 2007, isn't a fair fight, exchange 2003 is far easier to deploy, use, maintain, manage, repair, upgrade, learn, and it integrates with AD properly ! Exchange 2007 is as terrible an upgrade option for mail servers as Vista is for workstations, and don't even get me started on 2008 server or MS Virtual server. I suppose you were so busy clicking ok to UAC prompts that you failed to notice things Microsoft had to do to move exchange 2007 like bundle exchange 2003 and matching exchange 2003 licenses for free.

    10. Re:Oh, not this shit again? Come on.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "This AINT no DROP IN REPLACEMENT. "

      Nice double negative - so you are saying it IS a drop in replacement. Cool.

    11. Re:Oh, not this shit again? Come on.... by LibertineR · · Score: 1
      Oh, I wish I was in the mood to argue, but I am not.

      I'll only point out, that a local install of SQL is no longer need for BCM, except if you want an offline copy. You can put the BCM database, shared or unshared, on a centralized SQL server.

      And, wanting Microsoft to make Project Server play well with others, is like asking Chevron to start investing in Wind Farms.

    12. Re:Oh, not this shit again? Come on.... by somersault · · Score: 1

      Quotas anyone? OWA?

      TFS even mentions web access.. and a PDF of the full feature list is available from the link from the summary. It mentions quotas, web access with full calendar support etc. You should do a bit more research before starting with the nay-saying.

      As for MOSS, Microsoft CRM, Microsoft Project Server, etc I don't use them and have no intention of every doing so. Do you not get that this is for people who want to move away from Microsoft products? There are alternatives available.

      I expect that this would work with AD and group policy stuff, I don't see how it could work without it really. If you're that interested, go try it out yourself and then give a proper review rather than just complaining without looking into it. It sounds to me like it would be a good drop in replacement for a lot of small to medium businesses (the one where I work included), all we really need is email, calendar freebusy stuff and DirectPUSH for it to be a drop in replacement.

      --
      which is totally what she said
  35. Has anyone been able to download the source code? by nawcom · · Score: 1

    Links to packages seem to work, but the link to the source code just gives me some checksum error page. I'm already becoming an enemy with AGPLv3.

  36. Re:GPL'd community edition has limited MAPI client by shaitand · · Score: 1

    Because this isn't actually being released under the GPL.

  37. Re:EAT SHIT FAGGOTS!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As the composer of the lovely post, I feel some unhappiness towards the new slashdot display system. So I'm just letting some steam out...

    Fuck you taco :(

  38. Outlook support = pay to play by Ritz_Just_Ritz · · Score: 4, Informative

    From their FAQ:

    If I build Zarafa from source, can I still buy a license for Outlook access?

    Technically this is possible, but you always need to have the Zarafa-professional package for Outlook support. This package is available for the default supported distributions.

    1. Re:Outlook support = pay to play by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Technically this is possible, but you always need to have the Zarafa-professional package for Outlook support.

      I wonder if they mean support as in "compatibility" or as in "tech support"?

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    2. Re:Outlook support = pay to play by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh? Community version shows lookout support for three users: http://www.zarafa.com/?q=en/content/versions

      So while it's restricted in numbers it's still useful for the home or small business user, although Scalix community offers 10 users IIRC.

      Good on them I say, they're pro-active & the system works well. I've been evaluating it for a client & they took the time to call me (I'm on the othern side of the world to them) to discuss various things including licensing etc. Looks to me like they may have taken some comments on board which is refreshing - I doubt one would have the same response from MS for instance!

      I've not tried the community version, having just read about it, but the evaluation version was a fairly easy install & it all worked as advertised on Ubuntu at least :-) I initially used the VMWare appliance for testing, this'd be a great resource for the home user with the community version loaded...

  39. We already had this... by alexborges · · Score: 1

    But not GPL3

    I guess the zimbra folk sold to yahoo early: its a whole other bag of chips now.

    MS is running for their money, and they aint gonna get.

    --
    NO SIG
    1. Re:We already had this... by VVelox · · Score: 1

      If it is better implemented than Zimbra, it would be nice, but that would not be hard to do though.

    2. Re:We already had this... by alexborges · · Score: 1

      Why do you say this, zimbra works fine!

      --
      NO SIG
    3. Re:We already had this... by VVelox · · Score: 1

      That is true if by fine you mean it is a complete PITA to integrate with a existing system and is massively uncommented.

    4. Re:We already had this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      zimbra works fine as long as you don't skip to many versions between upgrades. 3.x to 4.2 was a nightmare... I never got it to work, but I was told we were the largest enterprise running the free(community supported) edition.

    5. Re:We already had this... by alexborges · · Score: 1

      Get off the pipe, my friend.

      Ive had it working for like five enterprises here, some of 5k accounts, some smaller.

      It syncs my iphone vÃa push, it syncs all the wince and winme devices weve thrown at it, if youve a BES (eek, talk about shitty messaging), it works fine with it.

      If you mean Outlook plain support.... then okay, it is quircki on that end. But the problem with that is OUTLOOK. Not zimbra!

      The ZWC works perfectly and install easyer than most sw ive seen.

      --
      NO SIG
    6. Re:We already had this... by alexborges · · Score: 1

      And, BTW, why is it a pita to integrate? Ive had it within an ADS, then as a substitute for ADS, then as a dropin exchange replacement, then as a plain unix-based mailserver for unix clients....

      I just didnt suffer with it at all.

      Love the damned thing

      --
      NO SIG
    7. Re:We already had this... by VVelox · · Score: 1

      So?

      Either can work for large organizations, but it does not make either less of a ugly hack.

      I honestly don't give a rat's about outlook support. My interest is in the unix area, not windows.

      Unless something has changed recently it's code base is complete crap.

    8. Re:We already had this... by VVelox · · Score: 1

      Never tried integrate it with AD before as AD is very possibly the worst LDAP server in existence.

  40. Re:GPL'd community edition has limited MAPI client by marxmarv · · Score: 1

    Well, it's being released under the Affero GPLv3. I am not a supporter of Affero.

    --
    /. -- the Free Republic of technology.
  41. Re:GPL'd community edition has limited MAPI client by Peeet · · Score: 2, Informative

    From the F.A.Q.:
    "The first three users that connect to the community versions with Outlook can only use Outlook. All other users can only connect via webaccess, imap/pop3 or Z-Push."

  42. No different than all the others... by shaitand · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yet another open source exchange replacement that didn't open source everything required to interact with outlook.

    Without that, whats the point?

  43. Price list Link on the sidebar - ? by mchawi · · Score: 1

    It looks like they have an evaluation version for download but there is a price list for the commercial version.

    Any ideas on whether the download is feature compliant and if you still have to pay anything to use it (open source license, but is it 'free' to use with no legal issues)?

    If you had to pay the lists on the sidebar this is much higher than what we pay for Exchange licenses, even if you take every discount on the page into account.

    I would also be interested to know how large the system could scale.

  44. Re:EAT SHIT FAGGOTS!! by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

    Linux is for the garbage can!

    Sweet! What won't Linux run on these days?

    The used condoms inside the garbage can.

    Well there are condoms with built-in vibrators now so we just need to add a processor.

  45. anyone actually have the source ? by johnjones · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I just get bad checksum so there is a way to advertise... say its (A)GPL and then not provide the source !

    links anyone ?

  46. Isn't Exchange the last big reason by rrohbeck · · Score: 2, Insightful

    why enterprises run Windows?
    Does anybody have links to success stories of large(-ish) corporations converting to Zarafa?

    1. Re:Isn't Exchange the last big reason by gothzilla · · Score: 1

      No. There is still a lot of commercial software that does not have a linux version. It only takes one hole to prevent a switch to linux from windows.

    2. Re:Isn't Exchange the last big reason by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      CAD software is a big one. So is accounting software: switching to an unstable open source is almost as bad as switching to closed source where the vendor goes out of business.

    3. Re:Isn't Exchange the last big reason by cheros · · Score: 1

      No, Outlook is.

      And that firm grip by the balls is happily maintained by ye mobile phone providers, because they all only flog an Outlook sync package with the phone. Just in case you had ANY illusions about losing MS Office (just to rub it in) I would suggest you make an end user do the following simple task:

      1 - stick a list of numbers in a spreadsheet
      2 - print sheets of labels, one label per entry on the spreadsheet.

      Sure, it isn't that easy on MS Office. But it is simply impossible in OpenOffice.

      --
      Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
    4. Re:Isn't Exchange the last big reason by amorsen · · Score: 1

      I don't get it. I've done mail labels from spreadsheets in OpenOffice. What is impossible about the task you mention?

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    5. Re:Isn't Exchange the last big reason by cheros · · Score: 1

      I'll do it again this evening and let you know where this breaks in usability (or where I screwed up, let's face, I can have an off day too). The whole shenanigans with data sources et al is overly complicated.

      IMHO, the killer app in OOo is Base. It's got the visual interface that have misguided many into develop business apps on Access (argh), but it works with grown up database. All you need now is a Linux version of Visio and a drop in for Outlook..

      --
      Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
    6. Re:Isn't Exchange the last big reason by amorsen · · Score: 1

      I won't pretend that it wasn't overly complicated and non-intuitive. Give me a CLI any day.

      Something like Visio for Linux would be nice, except it should be possible to do much better. I was so shocked the first time I used Visio, realising how many hours and days have been wasted making drawings that way. Inkscape is nice, but even slower to work with.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    7. Re:Isn't Exchange the last big reason by drachenstern · · Score: 1

      I'm gonna call Sage and AutoDesk on you as two companies offering software for what you're suggesting. Just saying is all. But I'm not going to claim that the Sage products will do what you need, only that they are a large org offering the same product that you seem to think doesn't exist.

      Now, quickbooks it may not be, but ...

      --
      2^3 * 31 * 647
    8. Re:Isn't Exchange the last big reason by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      I've worked with Autodesk, years ago: it seemed fine for mechanical work, but was useless for electrical design. And as near as I can tell, Sage is just a reseller for Autodesk. Is it really useful for electrical schematic capture and circuit layout?

  47. Initializing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Chair prelaunch autocycle engaged, firing chair in 3...2...1...

  48. OBM? by nuonguy · · Score: 1

    Has anyone tried the OBM offering yet? http://www.obm.org/doku.php

    I saw them at LinuxWorld in San Francisco recently. Looked very nice.

    I can't tell from their front page whether they do MAPI.

    1. Re:OBM? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OBM is just like all other groupware solutions based on an imap storage backend and not mapi based.

    2. Re:OBM? by drachenstern · · Score: 1

      http://www.obm.org/doku.php?id=obmoutlook

      OBM Outlook

      OBM Outlook is a non-free connector for synchronisation of Outlook with OBM.

      --
      2^3 * 31 * 647
  49. Facts, Un-earthed and Displayed? by coryking · · Score: 1

    Or do you instaed prefer to call everything that is fact, but goes against your world view "FUD"? I'd say Affero GPLv3 would be enough to keep me from using this product. Exchange is used in hardcore production environments... it is no place to play around with crazy, untested, product licenses.

    "Hey look boss, this is an exchange server replacement*. The best part is if we modify the publicly facing webmail portions even the slighest, we'll have to offer every single bit of code that touched our modifications on our webpage too! Isn't that awesome?"

    Ooops... looks like I went against your worldview again. FUD?

    *except for $list$ of major differences

    1. Re:Facts, Un-earthed and Displayed? by gamanimatron · · Score: 1

      The parent's assertions, "maybe not Free Software," "properties of a EULA" and "you can't modify it as you see fit" contribute to an environment of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

      The AGPL3 may well not be suited to anything other than vanilla distribution in a for-profit corporate environment, but that would have more to do with your not wanting to fix things because others might profit from your fixes, rather than your inability to fix things because the license legally prevents you from coming within 100 yards of the source code.

      --
      cogito ergo dubito
  50. 150 man-years of work by nsayer · · Score: 4, Funny

    Quick! I need a baby in a month! Find me 9 women!

    1. Re:150 man-years of work by caudron · · Score: 1

      Hey, I think I saw that video!

      --
      -Tom
    2. Re:150 man-years of work by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      I used that example in a project meeting when explaining why throwing bodies onto a construction site could only get you so far. I'm not sure if the women were offended or amused.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    3. Re:150 man-years of work by MK_CSGuy · · Score: 1

      This is slashdot, where finding 1 woman is enough of a problem, so wasting 9 women??
      Think using /dev/urandom v.s. using /dev/random...

    4. Re:150 man-years of work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You only need to find one that started the project 8 months ago...

  51. this is not progress by Qrlx · · Score: 3, Funny

    What sort of misguided geek thinks it's a good idea to work on a project which facilitates the rest of us getting invited to meetings?

    1. Re:this is not progress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SPOT ON!
      I hate exchange, not because it's MS or closed, but because managers think they can't be a 'proper' company without push mail & invites....as if people pay any attention to email these days! Phht. It's amazing to watch a 30 man company think they need this....what ever happened to managers actually managing their teams without being lazy - hitting send on email or invites doesn't mean the job is done.

  52. Umm... and why does this matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As a former MAPI programmer (don't worry - I've largely recovered) I have to point out that this is utterly irrelevant.

    The only compelling reason to use an Exchange compatible server is to support Outlook. The issue is that Zarafa charges for the Outlook connector. This is not a new business model, people, and truth be told its been a fairly common paradigm of 'Exchange-killers' for quite awhile now. Nothing is killed until the connector is free. Full stop.

    So why doesn't anyone offer a free connector? Because it is ridiculous amount of work to build and it is something corporations are willing to pay for. It's not that replicating the server functionality is difficult, it's that Microsoft twisted and violated open standards into something utterly unholy known as Exchange to ensure that nobody but Microsoft could communicate with it. MAPI is Microsoft's obfuscation of traditional messaging protocols and is infamously poorly documented.

    I wrote about this issue for Redmond magazine about 2 years ago and nothing's changed. The connector is still the kicker and, regardless of how nifty the back-end is, until an open-source Outlook connector appears Exchange will remain one of MS's top 5 products.

    Nothing but PR to see here. Move along...

    1. Re:Umm... and why does this matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not that replicating the server functionality is difficult, it's that Microsoft twisted and violated open standards into something utterly unholy known as Exchange to ensure that nobody but Microsoft could communicate with it. MAPI is Microsoft's obfuscation of traditional messaging protocols and is infamously poorly documented.

      Exchange Server Protocol Documents

      http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc425499(EXCHG.80).aspx

    2. Re:Umm... and why does this matter? by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      True in my experience. Every one of the 3 distinct 'Outlook Connnectors' I've tried fail in practice. I don't know whether it's because of the complexity, or whether Microsoft changes Outlook just to break connectors, or it's just that they're added on at the end of projects as an afterthought, but they break down badly under load and they mess up your mail folders.

      Any system that require a 'connector' on the client is not a drop-in replacement.

    3. Re:Umm... and why does this matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing is killed until the connector is free. Full stop.

      At least the work has started:
      http://openconnector.org/

      I see they need some help to finish things up. So if there are MAPI programmers reading this. Please help them.

  53. am i missing something ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not 100% sure but....isn't the community version only licensed for 3 outlook users ? So isn't this fairly useless for anyone apart from a 2 man consultancy firm ? Dentist ? Doctor ?
    Can I use this in a 120 seat site ?

    1. Re:am i missing something ? by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

      The feature restrictions on the community version make it even more useless, it seems to me.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
  54. Re:EAT SHIT FAGGOTS!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's a great sig. I like it the other way around though.

  55. Server vs Client by Natrone · · Score: 1

    I think the real stuff is in the client (disclaimer: my employer does this), as organizations aren't going to move to _replace_ Exchange. Anyone enterprise small enough would likely use a different server (and protocol) altogether anyway.

    Just my $0.02.

    1. Re:Server vs Client by drachenstern · · Score: 1

      wrong...
      any small shop with about $300 to spare is going to get Microsoft Action Pack or something similar and have a full copy of SBS and all their office and XP and they will run SBS to handle exchange, etc. Then the only cost is acquiring more user licenses, but those are going to exist no matter what....

      --
      2^3 * 31 * 647
  56. MORE than that by way2trivial · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I can give a meeting room, or a projector, or any other resource-- it's own exchange account- and set it to !automatically accept! some peoples meeting request, and other people's requests will have to be approved.. and when I send a meeting request to my boss, and two co-workers, and conference room B-- then conference room B will automatically show that it is 'busy' for my meeting.. and if I need a projector later-- I can send an invite to the 'projector' and reserve it as well..

    I can de-invite individual attendees....

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
    1. Re:MORE than that by Techman83 · · Score: 1

      You know that is a really nifty feature... I've had the pleasure of setting up and co-ordinating said accounts and I can tell you right now it's an after thought on MS's behalf, like a lot of their neat features, what the end users sees and how much hair the Admins have to pull in the process are 2 different things.

      There are better systems, it's just people have a belief that the hole world is using Outlook, so it must be better.

      Disclaimer: I am an exchange admin as part of my role and considering the plethora of products I've used in the past, exchange makes me cry!

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i cat
      Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!
  57. Do you use anything but Exchange? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    > What do you say to the Hundreds of Thousands of clients who get their Exchange via SBS (Small Business Server)? And that's just the 2003 version.

    That they require too many administrators and cause more downtime.

    > How many Enterprise apps do you know of by ANY vendor that dont degrade with low disk space? Come on, dude, that aint fair and you know it.

    He also mentioned it degrading due to *large mailbox size* That's the big PITA. And you have to buy crapware to shovel messages around, whereas with normal mail spools, you can shuffle mail around pretty easily with a few quick scripts.

    > Exchange is one of those apps that can look bad if installed by an idiot. You would think a proper architect would have worked out space and usage requirements early on.

    Yeah, but it's also one of those apps that's usually installed by an idiot.

    > How do you reach a low space condition ANYWAY, if you are making proper use of quotas? No product takes more abuse due to stupid administration than Exchange server.

    No product needs as much administration as Exchange server.

    > How do you reach a low space condition ANYWAY, if you are making proper use of quotas? No product takes more abuse due to stupid administration than Exchange server.

    Powerpoint with #$#%ing embedded videos. But that's another story entirely.

    > But please, inflexible? When you have dozens of 100K+ client installations of Exchange humming along at places like Chevron and others, while the very same product can keep 20 people happy on a $500 box, you cant call it inflexible. Thats just wrong, pal.

    Everyone else can do that too. But they do it better. The main advantage of Exchange is all that integration so they can send polls or schedule meetings or whatever else. But as far as simple email goes, Exchange is more trouble than its worth.

    Which is why this project is important.

  58. Two options by CaptSaltyJack · · Score: 1
    Could someone please explain the two download options available:
    • AGPL3 only
    • incl. 3 users
      Outlook support
  59. Re:GPL'd community edition has limited MAPI client by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If only we had the source so that we could remove the limit. Oh, the humanity!

  60. Nice crippleware slashvertisement by Linux_ho · · Score: 4, Informative
    The community version doesn't support using Outlook if you need to use more than 3 clients, according to the installation document:

    The proven Zarafa groupware solution (ha) is now also available as an open source community version licensed under the Affero GPLv3. This version includes:

    AJAX based web access
    Mobile webaccess
    IMAP/POP3 gateway
    iCal gateway
    Z-Push - ActiveSync compatibility (licensed under GPLv2)

    Additionally you can use this version with the closed source Zarafa Outlook clients up to 3 Outlook users.
    Important: To use Outlook support in the community version, you need to run the zarafa-licensed daemon.

    --
    include $sig;
    1;
    1. Re:Nice crippleware slashvertisement by OriginalArlen · · Score: 1

      Jeff Lint for President!

      --

      Everything I needed to know about life, I learnt from Blake's Seven
  61. I disagree by way2trivial · · Score: 1, Insightful

    it's around 2,400-- but then you also require 25 outlook licenses.

    once again, the price of the software is negligable compared to the cost of 25 employee's salaries...

    go ahead, waste a week of each one's time teaching them whats different about the new program.

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
  62. Free version limited by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The free version is far from feature complete. Most notably, it is limited to 3 Outlook users.

    http://www.zarafa.com/content/versions

  63. Wrong License by pavon · · Score: 1

    The text you are quoting does not appear anywhere in the AGPLv3. You must be looking at the old Affero license, which did have significant problems, or a draft of the AGPL.

    The only difference between the AGPLv3 and the GPLv3 (apart from the preamble which is non-binding) is section 13:

    13. Remote Network Interaction; Use with the GNU General Public License.

    Notwithstanding any other provision of this License, if you modify the Program, your modified version must prominently offer all users interacting with it remotely through a computer network (if your version supports such interaction) an opportunity to receive the Corresponding Source of your version by providing access to the Corresponding Source from a network server at no charge, through some standard or customary means of facilitating copying of software. This Corresponding Source shall include the Corresponding Source for any work covered by version 3 of the GNU General Public License that is incorporated pursuant to the following paragraph.

    Notwithstanding any other provision of this License, you have permission to link or combine any covered work with a work licensed under version 3 of the GNU General Public License into a single combined work, and to convey the resulting work. The terms of this License will continue to apply to the part which is the covered work, but the work with which it is combined will remain governed by version 3 of the GNU General Public License.

    Note the "Not withstanding any other provision" phrase. Earlier in the license it says:

    You may make, run and propagate covered works that you do not convey, without conditions so long as your license otherwise remains in force.

    where,

    A "covered work" means either the unmodified Program or a work based on the Program.

    Section 13 does not override this - you are perfectly free to modify works that you do not distribute in any way you wish.

    Furthermore, this is not EULA in any way shape or form - the restrictions in section 13 only apply if you are making derivative works. Under US copyright law third parties do not have permission to create derivative works (apart from what is allowed under fair use) without approval from the copyright holder. This section is only giving the terms under which you are granted permission to make derivate works.

    1. Re:Wrong License by pavon · · Score: 1

      Nevermind, that interpretation can't be correct, otherwise the section would be completely meaningless. It was originally explained to me that section 13 only applied if you made the software available for use to others, but after rereading the definitions section I cannot see how it could be interpreted that way.

      The point about the EULA still stands.

    2. Re:Wrong License by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      The point about the EULA still stands.

      I don't believe that it does (although I understand that there are intelligent people who disagree with me). It's a license affecting end users, namely the ones who install and execute it on their servers, and it governs what they may do with the software. It is a license on usage, in contrast with the GPL which has always been a license on distribution.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  64. A week??? You need new employees by baileydau · · Score: 5, Insightful

    it's around 2,400-- but then you also require 25 outlook licenses.

    once again, the price of the software is negligable compared to the cost of 25 employee's salaries...

    go ahead, waste a week of each one's time teaching them whats different about the new program.

    This is server software we are talking about here. The end users don't change their software (that's the entire point). So there is no cost for retraining end users.

    You would obviously have to train the server administration staff, but even if you did put in a "Genuine Microsoft" Exchange server, you would probably still have to do this.

    Besides, even if the front end did change, a week of training is a LOT. As it would be replacement software, the concepts are the same, it's only which button you push to do it that changes. So if you can't train them in a matter of hours, if not minutes, you really do need new employees.

    Where I work, we use a non-MS stand alone calendaring solution. Our end user training takes a couple of hours.

    How long do you think it would take to train users to use the new version of MS Office?

    --
    Ever stop to think ... and forget to start again?
  65. Re:GPL'd community edition has limited MAPI client by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's fine. That makes it a viable alternative for many companies while still allowing the vendor to make a profit from the big customers. The larger installed base of free users increases the visibility of the product, and everyone benefits. It also means that consultants can pick up a copy for free and learn its ins-and-outs. Even if it wasn't GPL, a commercial product could benefit similarly from making single-seat licenses free. I evaluated a Linux-based financial accounting app that was priced that way. My company didn't end up using it, but I liked the fact that I could download it, learn it, and then offer my services as a consultant for other companies that might want to use it.

  66. What about Outlook itself? by VirtualSquid · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm happy for the server-side people if this is progress on replacing Exchange, but what about replacing Outlook itself?
    It's one of the 3-4 missing apps that prevent me from moving to Linux. I mean, how hard can it be, to implement an email client with integrated calendar and contacts? It doesn't need every single bell and whistle - just the few features i depend on (rich text in contact memo fields, savable contact searches). I'd happily buy such an app for Linux (at, say, the same price as Outlook.) Outlook's been around for what, 11 years? And in all that time, nobody's thought to make a viable Linux alternative?

    1. Re:What about Outlook itself? by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Evolution is trying to be a copy of Outlook. I have no idea about the two features you depend on; they sound quite obscure to me.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    2. Re:What about Outlook itself? by hacker · · Score: 1

      "Outlook's been around for what, 11 years? And in all that time, nobody's thought to make a viable Linux alternative?"

      Oh, we've thought about it, we just don't care to. It's not an itch we feel we need to scratch.

      Now, if someone were to put up say a few million dollars of funding, it might change our priorities, but right now... this isn't one of them for us, even if it is one for you.

    3. Re:What about Outlook itself? by spiki · · Score: 0

      One word. (KDE) Kontact

      --
      I sell frozen yogurt which i call frogurt
  67. Open source but unable to download source? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it just me or can you not download the source?
    When I click on the source package link I'm greeted by "Bad checksum or timed out. Please re-open the original link used for this download"

    1. Re:Open source but unable to download source? by trinity93 · · Score: 1

      its working now. i have a copy

      --
      We substituted the coffee Slashdot normally drinks with "Sandoz Crystals", Lets see if they notice the difference
  68. Now we need a client... by sam0737 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    if this work as advertised...now we need a drop-in replacement for Outlook client.

    I am not aware of any other Software that could do Email and Calendar, Contact and Sync so great. (oh let me know if there is any).

    On the other hand, we probably need a Outlook that could have two or more MAPI account.

  69. NOH! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    AI WOANT!.

    o :b

  70. The community edition looks pretty sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only 3 users for the open source edition? Color me unimpressed...

    http://drupal.zarafa.com/content/versions

  71. Some commenters have come close by uassholes · · Score: 1
    but haven't stated explicitly, that the best course of action is to ignore things like this.

    Of course there hasn't yet been developed a pill for intelligence, so management will still want some of the silly frills involved here, like the calendar. Have hope; we may someday see the end of microsucks horseshit.

  72. Careful choice of words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You said:

    I'd like to believe that most slashdotters don't shit in their sleep.

    instead of:

    I believe that most slashdotters don't shit in their sleep.

    I'm with you, bro.

  73. It's GPL, dummy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    jeez, you're practically being begged to search for the "#define MAPILIMIT 5" and increase it. if you can't make it that far, you're on the wrong website.

  74. oh hell, it's not GNU GPL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    nevermind... not really open source where it counts

  75. Re:EAT SHIT FAGGOTS!! by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

    Trolls.

  76. Licensing isn't as expensive as you quote... by PrimalChrome · · Score: 1

    If you only require 25 licenses, most companies rely on Small Biz Server which makes bundled licensing significantly cheaper. Also, an Exchange CAL comes with a license for Outlook/Entourage...it does not require a separate Outlook or Office CAL to run the client.

    1. Re:Licensing isn't as expensive as you quote... by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      Most people have MS Office on their computer anyway, and that comes with Outlook or Entourage.

    2. Re:Licensing isn't as expensive as you quote... by JediSB · · Score: 1

      Also, an Exchange CAL comes with a license for Outlook/Entourage

      As of Exchange 2007 MS dropped the included Outlook CAL.

  77. Citadel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It looks like a nice try, but Citadel seems to be better.

  78. Myopic? by PrimalChrome · · Score: 1

    Exchange has traditionally had exactly one reason for its popularity: vendor lock-in. If this really is a drop-in replacement without annoying CALs, we'll be Microsoft-free on our servers by Monday.

    Right. It has nothing to do with it's functionality, reliability, ease of use, etc... Exchange, Groupwise, and Notes do what corporations need....they allow for integration and collaboration. I have never understood why OSS or Linux zealots will howl at the moon about how unstable Windoze is or how they can't get Exchange or MSSQL to work. Then two seconds later look down their noses at IT guys that support MS products and have zero problems throwing together a stable XP machine and adminning a stable Exchange server.

    Out of over 300 clients, I have some running pure POP3 or Zimbra and others running Exchange. A fair percentage of those Exchange servers have over 40GB stores and handle a GB or so of traffic a day. Guess what....they run fine. 365 days a year they chug along moving mail....just like the BSD boxes and Linux boxes.

    If an organization can't afford a couple of grand for collaboration...they don't need it. It's kind of like those clients that whine about the cost of a backup...wanting to go with a cheap solution. You get what you are willing to invest in.

  79. Go all for OSS. by MikeFM · · Score: 1

    It's so stupid when companies don't just go all OSS. I'd buy a support package if their software was OSS and didn't suck. I'd pay at least as much as I'm paying for my current (sucky) mail server.

    I'd actually like to have a rack server with the software and hardware all supported by the vender like my Google Appliance. I'd be more concerned that a mail server be OSS though as an upgrade path is more important for a mail server.

    --
    At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
  80. Mimic Poorly, $$ as Much, go GPLv3 - SlashDot Love by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 1

    Mimic Poorly, $$ as Much, go GPLv3 - SlashDot Love

    Wow, brilliant, free advertising and they still don't ahve to provide anything of use because of the size and ocmplexity of the package of software and component dependency.

    So unless you are going to make your own Exchange clone, with 'limited features', this is cool or good why?

    Why not come out with a product that 'replaces' exchange and actually works as well and have more features?

    Can the OSS world offer anything that gives 'more' features instead of still carbon copying MS crap, and still designing UIs that look like Windows 95?

    Cool software that is 'better', would be a good start if you are going to take on a MS product. Is this concept too much to ask?

  81. Affero GPL; is it compatible with GPL? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I must say I am wondering why their licenses page state it is Affero GPL, and not simply GPL?

    Is it GPL compatible? Can the code be used in other GPL projects or forked, etc?

    1. Re:Affero GPL; is it compatible with GPL? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      According to the Wikipedia, GPLv3 is compatable with AGPLv3.

  82. You are not denied by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are denied to refuse to share your changes.

    You deny yourself because you want to keep the changes to yourself.

  83. IMAP support badly broken by cras · · Score: 1

    I just tested Zarafa's IMAP support and it has major issues. In fact it ranks as the worst IMAP server I've tested so far.

  84. I wondered about that by way2trivial · · Score: 1

    I run a SBS server for myself--

    I really tried and could not find where they mentioned for regular exchange that the cals included outlook seats the same as with SBS

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
  85. Re:A week??? You need new employees by Velex · · Score: 1

    I've been trying to train end-users in one particular piece of data-entry software for two years and they still can't shift-tab to move back an input. It all depends on who your end users are and whether there are any consequences to not learning.

    --
    Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
  86. I knew by DaMattster · · Score: 1

    That this would be too good to be true. Same deal as Scalix which offers you 10 Outlook-compatible CALs. Not really and truely free, is it? I have my eye on something more interesting, www.openchange.org. This, while still a good bit away from a release, aims to be an open source implementation of Exchange Server. Once this comes to release, I am sure it will put some pressure on these "crippleware" packages.

  87. You can't read -- it is free software. by Stu+Charlton · · Score: 1

    I don't care who endorses the AGPL; by the FSF's own definitions, it is not Free Software. Get pissed off and mod me down all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the AGPL is a EULA in that it governs the behavior of people who merely run the software, even if they do not distribute it (by any reasonable definition of the word "distribute" that has been in common usage during the history of computing).

    You apparently don't understand the definition.

    The section you quoted from the Affero GPL does not deny Freedom 1. You are still free to study the program. You are still free to adapt it to your needs. With the AGPL, modifiers AND hosts must also preserve the freedom for others to do so, even if that is a burden.

    A burden is not a denial of freedom, it is rather the requirement of enabling freedom. In other words, it is an assumed responsibility.

    The GPL family has always been focused on user-freedoms over author-freedoms, and in the case of AGPL, hosting-freedom. As soon as one chooses to modify the code, or in the case of AGPL3, HOST the code, they're burdened by certain behaviours. This is a utilitarian calculation to maximize societal freedom at the expense of individual liberty. You may not agree with it, but it fits the definition of free software.

    Note that I'm not a fan of the AGPL either, but I definitely think that it's free software -- it's the purest sense of the FSF's social agenda. But the FSF also recognizes that many would find the AGPL too burdensome, hence why it's not the only license they offer.

    --
    -Stu
  88. The admin can turn off IMAP by tepples · · Score: 1

    Migrating off Exchange is fine. You canc onnect to Exchange with IMAP and dump data. Just like you can with every other open source server. Problem is that Exchange has features which these other servers do not

    Such as the ability for anal administrators to turn off IMAP for nebulous "security reasons" in favor of requiring the employees to use Microsoft software to connect.

    1. Re:The admin can turn off IMAP by Allador · · Score: 1

      What does your post have to do with anything? If your company chooses to make a business decision (for whatever reason) to disable IMAP, thats their prerogative. That has nothing to do with Exchange.

  89. Re:GPL'd community edition has limited MAPI client by Allador · · Score: 1

    The MAPI stuff and other advanced features are plugins that are not GPL.

  90. Whatever reason would that be? by tepples · · Score: 1

    If your company chooses to make a business decision (for whatever reason) to disable IMAP, thats their prerogative. That has nothing to do with Exchange.

    What is a common "whatever reason" to disable IMAP in favor of a protocol for which Microsoft charges prohibitive royalties?

  91. Re:A week??? You need new employees by sumdumass · · Score: 1

    Shift tab is pretty elementry. Are you sure that your employer isn't just making the decision to hire morons (not you) so he can cut salaried rather then pay a competent person a few bucks?

    I mean almost anyone with experience in office or a spread sheet, hell even an outlook form would know about Shift+tab and tab.

    Here is a training hint, cut the cord on the mouse and make them suffer for a week without it. They will learn really quick what all the keyboard shortcuts are.

  92. Exchange? Replace email! by axxackall · · Score: 1
    Why bothering about replacing Exchange? It WAS a good product for what it WAS intended for - email. But it is email that is outdated.

    Email was designed in early 90s, the era of slow modem-based internet when offline messaging was a good thing. 90s are gone. Now internet is fast even for video. For many people their phones are constantly connected to internet delivering RSS from blogs and XMPP with chat.

    The problem now is not with Exchange, even not with protocols it is based on. Time changed. The way of communication is changed.

    In our company we use mostly our corp web-portals and our corp instant messaging servers for most of our internal communications.

    Discussion threads have more usability and accessibility when published on portal blogs with RSS feeds to a phone. Same thing about calendars - we publish our personal and group calendars on our portals. When I need to update files - I publish them on our corporate portal. Of course all publishing is secure and control using right and permissions. When we need just a quick exchange on ideas - we chat in jabber.

    We use email mostly only when communicating with old-fashion internet users. So, email is like a backup communication way, like a land line phone. But why should we invest money to backup communication way? We just use Postfix + LDAP + IMAP, all with web-based access through our corp portals.

    Remember, the primary goal is always communication. Email was just a tool for it. Email time is gone. Now it is time for communication based on web-2.0 technologies.

    --

    Less is more !
  93. God is the Linux administrator by ftekkie · · Score: 1

    I bet God must love these Linux administrators. I'd love them myself in the new uniforms for female Linux administrators.

  94. Use Zafara by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://zarafa.com/
    They release as open source a version of their exchange replacement mail server, you can read here

    http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/19/2023252

    Drop-In Replacement For Exchange Now Open Source

    Please search first, then ask...

  95. a tool that works... by msimm · · Score: 1

    Jesus H. Fucking Christ. 99.9999999% of all companies just want to buy a tool that works.

    Have you used Exchange?

    --
    Quack, quack.
  96. drop in replacement? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How can it be called a drop in replacement if it requires an additional plugin to connect to outlook? That just doesnt make sense to me.

  97. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Exchange 2007 provides a Web Service interface, the WSDL is available on every exchange 2007 installation.

    Since the protocol is based on an open standard, integration with exchange 2007 is easier than ever: Evolution developers only need to generate proxies for the web-services and update the application to use the new interface.