E17, Slimmed Down For Cell Phones

twitter writes "Want to run Enlightenment on your cell phone? The Rasterman's recent efforts bring E17 to Open Moko FreeRunner and Treo 650: 'According to the Rasterman, when used with his updated illume stack and new Elementary widget set, E17 can now run in just 32MB of RAM, on an ARM9 processor clocked at 317MHz. To prove it, he is distributing a Linux kernel and E17/Illume/Elementary stack for Palm's Treo650. The stack can be launched from PalmOS without touching the device's flash storage, he says.' While Microsoft fumbles with limited 'instant on,' GNU/Linux rules the embedded world and that's the only thing going in the IT market right now."

Comments

What a guy

[CRCulver]

Raster has always seemed to me one of the unsung heroes of the open source world. Richard Stallman has his following and has even seen a biography published by O'Reilly, and Eric S. Raymond's witty sayings have often been chronicled here and on other tech sites, but Raster just doesn't get the attention he deserves for his elegant technical solutions--even coverage on Enlightenment here is more about eye candy than superb architecture.

Re:What a guy

[TheModelEskimo]

but Raster just doesn't get the attention he deserves for his elegant technical solutions

This is because a long time ago, Rasterman refused to sign the NDA*, so the Powers that Be banished him to Japan to lock him out of the limelight.

*No Deodorant Agreement

Re:What a guy

[chromatic]

Raster just doesn't get the attention he deserves for his elegant technical solutions...

He did a lot of work on imlib2, which languished for years until better software replaced it (where "better" might mean "less buggy" or "released more frequently" or "appears maintained"). I've never thought that he had much interest in releasing stable versions of his code with any frequency or rhythm. That's not the sole criterion for positive notoriety, but releasing software that people can actually use is important.

(One caveat is that I stopped using Enlightenment a decade ago, around E14, because the new versions weren't stable or releasable.)

Re:What a guy

[raw-sewage]

He did a lot of work on imlib2, which languished for years until better software replaced it (where "better" might mean "less buggy" or "released more frequently" or "appears maintained").

To which software are you referring? (Honest question, not rhetorical.)

I've never thought that he had much interest in releasing stable versions of his code with any frequency or rhythm. That's not the sole criterion for positive notoriety, but releasing software that people can actually use is important.

The release cycle is painfully slow, or possibly even non-existent. One of the lowest layers in the E17 actually has a release version. And I just now noticed that there is a release snapshot for E17 and EFL. I haven't taken the time to look at the actual bug lists for the whole E17 project, but I am one of the many people saying "E17 has been quite stable for me and I use it every day". So there's some positive hearsay for whatever that's worth. :)

(One caveat is that I stopped using Enlightenment a decade ago, around E14, because the new versions weren't stable or releasable.)

In all fairness, E14 was a looooong time ago. When development for E17 got started, E16 got handed off. It's been a supported, "release quality" product for quite a while now (not as glamorous, obviously). I lurk on the enlightenment-users mailing list, and see a fair number of people asking questions about E16, bugs getting fixed, etc, relative to the general E17 traffic.

Anyway, I've got high hopes for an actual, true-to-life E17 release version... it was actually asked about recently on the e-users mailing list. Raster said they are working towards a release. The snapshot news linked above supports they notion that he is following through with this.

Re:What a guy

[diegocgteleline.es]

Maybe because other people actually releases stable code that other people can use. That plays a big role in getting fans - people being able to use your software. They don't care too much about you when you don't release anything.

E17 was awesome from the start, it made things that windows and os x didn't do at its time, and it's still very powerful. But, you know, while E is "technically ahead" of other graphic toolkits, some of the things it does have already been implemented, tested, released and perfectioned in other environments.

I no longer have faith in E. They're technically ahead in their development versions, but their stable versions are always behind of other environments. I can use features that E implemented first than anyone in stable environments others than E, but not in E, because, you know, they're too busy making it "perfect"

Re:What a guy

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, that's the biggest problem with Enlightenment. I'm glad they're there as a source of inspiration, but I can't use E17 in a production environment.

Re:What a guy

[chromatic]

To which software are you referring?

For a direct replacement, probably Cairo, though plenty of projects seem to get by with the Gtk or QT primitives, if they don't use SVG or PNG libraries.

The release cycle is painfully slow, or possibly even non-existent.... Raster said they are working towards a release. The snapshot news linked above supports they notion that he is following through with this.

I seem to recall he's said that multiple times over the past decade, and my impression is that he eventually came back and said "All we need to do is rewrite a few pieces from scratch, and then we can release!" That's no skin off of my nose, but I'll take the software more seriously when it has something closer to a regular release cycle.

Re:What a guy

[tvon]

Raster has always had interesting projects, but come on, comparing him to ESR and Stallman? That's some serious reaching.

I mean, really, that's out there.

Re:What a guy

[SmallFurryCreature]

What is there to cover. Enlightenment "1" was out a decade ago and since then work has been going on E17 with countless 'restarts' on the core libraries to make it all work.

Others have taken e17 on occasion and tried to make a working desktop out of it all, with some success if you are willing to go without essential tools working consistently, it is a good window manager but only for the hardcore.

It is the Duke Nukem Forever of the Linux world. After a certain amount of time you just have to produce SOMETHING and Raster hasn't.

The problem is now that e17 really has to look for a new home. So what that e17 is lightweight when every PC has a dual core, 4 gigs of ram and a powerful gpu? 10 years ago E17 would have been groundbreaking. 5 years ago it would have ruled the desktop. Today. Who needs it. You can have a PC that can run any hardware accelerated window manager for peanuts, even laptops got GPU's for ages now.

For that matter, this is hardly the first time e17 been shown on a phone.

Raster make some intresting concepts and some of libraries are widely used, but e17 is a pipedream by now outdated by advancing tech. The world has moved on. Don't get me wrong, I got e17 installed and with a lot of tweaking I got it working just as I want it, but I have had to work at it for over half a decade at now to get it working and keep it working with each 'rewrite'. ENOUGH.

Linus is the best known hero of opensource, because he delivers. Stallman has shown real vision and delivered the GNU but gets flack for HERD (or however it is spelled), Raster did E16, then started E17 and not produced anything but core libraries for some future project. Useful they may be to others but some of us are getting tired of waiting.

Re:What a guy

[lysergic.acid]

while i can't comment on the technical merits of Enlightenment, i strongly disagree with you that a lightweight window manager or desktop environment is irrelevant these days. if anything, lightweight GUI toolkits are more relevant now than ever before. with the rapid growth of the mobile computing market and rise of smart devices like smartphones, portable media players/entertainment devices, netbooks/sub-laptops, internet tablets, etc., there is an ever-growing need for lightweight software platforms--especially open source ones.

it's easy to see how wireless internet access is poised to change the consumer computing paradigm as public wireless access becomes more and more ubiquitous. increasingly, the internet/web is being integrated into the daily lives of ordinary individuals. people want to keep in touch with their friends/associates via IM or e-mail. web services like google maps, wikipedia, gmail, flickr, etc. are becoming indispensable tools for everyday life. and more and more people are seeing the benefits of having access to the web, and all of the information it contains, at all times via information appliances. such smart devices have essentially become an accessory to life.

this has not only pushed more and more portable devices to include wireless & web browsing capabilities, but it has also made them smarter & more powerful. naturally, more robust software platforms need to be developed to match the advances in portable hardware. just compare the first generation iPod firmware to the iPod Touch's operating system.

obviously Elementary isn't meant to run on conventional computing platforms like desktop PCs or laptops; it's clearly designed for sub-laptop devices like smartphones and information appliances. this is an emerging market that will only grow even faster as wireless internet access becomes a basic public infrastructure, especially as more and more cities roll out municipal WiFi/WiMax networks. and people will not want to run Windows Vista on their portable devices.

Re:What a guy

[drew]

While obviously we need people in the community who actually release code every now and then, I think Raster has done more for the community than many people give him credit for. Over the years, he has been an incredible source of ideas that others have run with to do some amazing things. I'll admit that it's been years since I've used any software that he's written, and I'm frustrated to the point of no longer caring that the last stable release of Enlightenment was something like eight years ago. But when you stop and think about how many aspects of a modern linux box are derived directly or indirectly from work that he did so many years ago, it's pretty impressive. (That said, I can't think of many significant contributions he's made more recently.)

So while I would say that it's unlikely that I'll ever run Enlightenment again, I still think it's nice to hear about new developments on that front, as there's a good chance I'll be using something derived from it in a few years...

Re:What a guy

[CAIMLAS]

The problem with Enlightenment (and thus Raster's work) is that it's always been in development; there hasn't been a release made in the past 8 or so years, and in that time there have been at least two or three (that I'm aware of - probably a lot more) code disposals, rewrites, and general reconstruction/redesign.

With E, it's always been: it'll be done "real soon now" and if you want to try it you've got to pull it from cvs and build it yourself. Also, if it doesn't build, don't tell us about it; we either know, or don't care. You're pulling from a cvs development tree, so why would you expect otherwise?

If they'd actually had a release every couple years, or even a "working snapshot" which was reasonably stable every couple months, I'm fairly certain they'd have maintained a sizeable following. Six, seven, eight years ago E (for E16 and early E17) had a fairly substantial (and growing) following; now, I don't know anyone who uses it, and very few of new users even know what it is. (There are also a lot of other options now than there were then which look "just as pretty" and work, which I'm sure is a big part of no attention as well.)

Re:What a guy

[serveto]

Excellent, I wish I had mod points for you.

Re:What a guy

[MattBurke]

> So what that e17 is lightweight when every PC has a dual core, 4 gigs of ram and a powerful gpu? ...
> Today. Who needs it. You can have a PC that can run any hardware accelerated window manager for peanuts, even laptops got GPU's for ages now.

Some of us use computers for working on, not for playing about on.

I don't care if someone's desktop flips over with a flashy 3D accelerated rotating cube effect, if it were me I'd be annoyed that my computer's unusable for the 2 seconds or so while the flip's in progress. 4 seconds if flipped accidentally.

And then there's the faffing around trying to get 3D acceleration working on a nonstandard kernel. It doesn't happen in a business environment. Nobody could ever justify spending half a day messing around because they want their desktop to look pretty.

FWIW I use Gnome+E DR16 with the Arctic theme for its FAST, reliable, minimalistic (by today's ludicrous standards) approach. I have a pre-setup home directory I wget and untar onto a new box so my setup time's virtually nil providing I can stop distro du jour's bloatware from trying to reconfigure everything for me. I've had pretty much exactly the same setup for around 10 years, bar the change from Gnome 1.4 to 2, and a few other minor upgrades here and there, but I have no intention of changing it any time soon because it works a hell of a lot better than anything I've seen recently

Re:What a guy

[Lennie]

It really isn't so hard to understand.

The problem has always been, Rasterman is the projectleader and he never got a job where he could dedicate all his time to the project. If that would have happend he could have done some real 'damage'.

He had been working on embedded before and he alwasy wanted to make E17 be usable for that as well.

Have a look at this video of e17 running on an Compaq/HP iPaq from some years ago (the webserver says last-modified: 23 Oct 2004):

http://www.rasterman.com/files/eem.avi

Now he works at the company working on the freerunner and he actually gets that time to work on these things and thus it's moving forward again.

Re:What a guy

[inaneframe]

One caveat for you, using the word caveat does not magically make you look smarter, on the contrary, using it improperly or in a sentence where it's not needed makes you look very stupid. Proof:

". . . releasing software that people can actually use is important. I stopped using Enlightenment a decade ago, around E14, because the new versions weren't stable or releasable."

Re:What a guy

[Akceptor]

U can download sources and start 2 develop stable software yourself :) Even beta versions are stable for use enough

Re:What a guy

[chromatic]

One caveat for you, using the word caveat does not magically make you look smarter, on the contrary, using it improperly or in a sentence where it's not needed makes you look very stupid.

Let me rephrase then. A warning or admonition that my opinion could be out of date with regard to recent events.... You know, from the Latin cavere, to take caution or to guard. I could have used noto bene, but fewer people understand that.

Ok..... why?

[nurb432]

While this might be 'neat', its the applications that really matter.

Re:Ok..... why?

[plover]

Actually, there is another piece that matters even more than the apps, and that's the standardization of the user experience. Iron-fisted control of every aspect of GUI, from control placement to responses, relentless paring down to the essentials, usability labs, testing, all those details that make Apple products so popular, that's what Linux needs, and that's what Enlightenment could bring. It's an exciting prospect.

Whether or not it happens is a different question.

Re:Ok..... why?

[nurb432]

Ok, ill give you that, and i agree consistency is a good thing, but an interface alone is sort of useless. The phone has to DO something..

Re:Ok..... why?

[digidave]

Consistency is overrated. If there is a program that is better than all the rest, people will learn use even if it doesn't fit the exact mold of other programs.

Re:Ok..... why?

[Anonymous Coward]

And indeed, more and more we all use "applications" through our browser - which have no consistency whatsoever. Site A has menus here, that work this way, Site B has a totally different setup. . .

And people don't seem bothered by this. (It bothers me, but I seem to be in the minority among people I poll...)

Re:Ok..... why?

[plover]

Consistency is overrated. If there is a program that is better than all the rest, people will learn use even if it doesn't fit the exact mold of other programs.

x million iPod and iPhone users would strongly suggest otherwise. As a music player, the concepts behind iPods suck -- here's proprietary client software, we sell DRM music, our music doesn't work on any other player, can't replace the battery, higher priced than most other players with similar audio quality -- there's a lot to dislike about the iPod.

So why do so many people buy and use and love them? It's the user interface. It's intuitive, it's consistent across the platforms, it's responsive, and it's not butt-ugly. It's the part that people see and interact with that make them desire the product.

Open Source projects are starting to learn this. Ubuntu is a big success in large part because they're pushing hard for a consistent GUI experience, and making it easy to use. We hackers may think that "being the best on the inside" is enough, but for Joe Sixpack to accept it, for it to be a commercial success, it's far more important that it looks good and is easy to use. To an end user, that is performance.

Re:Ok..... why?

[chromatic]

More people play DVDs than use iPods and iPhones, and DVD menus are by no means consistent.

More people drive cars than use iPods and iPhones, and minor things such as light controls, wiper controls, and parking breaks are not consistent between makes or even models.

You're just parroting the industrial designer's version of the geek fallacy that the best technology always wins. People buy iPods and iPhones because that brand is particularly popular and because music players let you carry thousands of songs in your pocket.

Re:Ok..... why?

[theLOUDroom]

It's the user interface. It's intuitive, it's consistent across the platforms, it's responsive, and it's not butt-ugly.

I dare you to show me an actual study stating that. It's just as likely that people buy them because they're fashionable or because the media refers to "ipods" rather than "mp3 players" in virtually any article relating to digital music.

Re:Ok..... why?

[Burz]

Consistency is overrated.

Bzzzt! Try again...

Consistency is why RIM and Windows Mobile dominate in the business market. With those platforms, you know that access to certain types of data and synchronizing that customers care about (email, calendars, etc.) absolutely WILL be available.

Having a phone with a Linux kernel and misc. GUI on it guarantees, erm, uh....

Even on phones, Linux looks like a platform only to software engineers (even most app developers won't recognize it as a platform).

Maybe Google can make good with Linux-based Android, but if they do how much do you want to bet 1/2 the Slahdotters will be telling average users they should get it because it runs "Linux".

Re:Ok..... why?

[Bonobo_Unknown]

How cool would it be if DVD interfaces were consistent? People use inconsistent interfaces on DVDs because the alternative is??? ??
Car controls I think you will find generally conform to a few configurations, indicator on left / right of the wheel seems to be the biggest difference on most models.

Re:Ok..... why?

[Wobble-U]

You're comparing things that aren't even competing directly with each other. GP is talking about people preferring iPods over other portable media players, not preferring iPods over EVERYTHING with a bad interface. I just can't see how your argument makes any sense...

Re:Ok..... why?

[chromatic]

People use inconsistent interfaces on DVDs because the alternative is???

Want some homework? Go find a hundred iPod owners who don't read Slashdot. Ask them about the alternatives to the iPod and how they decided to buy an iPod instead of another device. If 20% of them even mention the "intuitive interface", I'll admit shock and surprise.

Re:Ok..... why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh boy, this again.

As a music player, the concepts behind iPods suck -- here's proprietary client software,

Or you can use whatever other client software you like. This is like saying PCs suck because they can run Windows XP. (I have 2 iPods, and they work out-of-the-box on my Debian box just fine.)

we sell DRM music, our music doesn't work on any other player,

Through the iTunes Store, which isn't the only (or even the most popular) way to get music for your iPod. I fail to see how this reflects poorly on the iPod.

can't replace the battery,

Yeah, even though my 2001-vintage iPod still has great battery life. (Can't replace the CPU, either, yet nobody seems to complain about that, though there are legitimate reasons you'd want to.)

higher priced than most other players with similar audio quality

Not sure what you're comparing it to. When I bought an iPod nano last year, I looked for competitors, but nothing else was even close. Everything was either much (physically) bigger, or less storage, or whatnot. On Newegg right now, an iPod nano (8GB) is $144.95. They have 11 other 8GB flash players, and the iPod is right in the middle of the pack. Glancing at the stats, the cheaper ones are thicker, and the more expensive ones are thinner. The iPod fits this pattern exactly. I'm not seeing a price issue.

there's a lot to dislike about the iPod.

Perhaps, but you haven't seemed to hit any yet.

Re:Ok..... why?

[pizzach]

You're just parroting the industrial designer's version of the geek fallacy that the best technology always wins. People buy iPods and iPhones because that brand is particularly popular and because music players let you carry thousands of songs in your pocket.

Saying that people buy something just because it is popular is not even attempting to search for a root reason. Mind you, the iPod popped up before Apple really became popular again.

A large part of the reason why the iPod gained the popularity it did was because the dang scroll-wheel thinger was fun and easy to use for average people. Their eyes would glow with delight when they touched it. It is/was the major gimmick of the iPod brand.

Average people (not geeks) tell other average people something is cool and and something then becomes popular. Apple now has a strong brand which helps secure the iPod as being popular. This is because brand names generally set a baseline expectation for quality.

Now mind you, geeks will complain about missing features. But it is those same features that would have kept the iPod from getting popular in the first place. They would have complicated a simple thing, destroying the glowing hypnotic eyes of average people.

Re:Ok..... why?

[Anonymous Coward]

you don't have a choice to chose anything else than dvd
stop your bullshit

using the word "fallacy" doesn't make your arguments better than any other poster

Re:Ok..... why?

[Bert64]

And the gear shift, automatic, manual, paddle shift, pre-selector etc... And the selector is sometimes on the steering column, and sometimes in the center console.
Different fuel - some use petrol, some use higher grade petrol, some use diesel, some use LPG, some even use electric these days.
Handbrake - some have a pedal you push down, some have a handle set into the dash you pull to release, some have automatic handbrake, some have a handle next to your seat...

And that's just the most basic essential controls... Things like the entertainment and navigation systems can have wildly different interfaces, controls for opening the windows can vary from a handle you have to turn manually, to buttons which could be located somewhere on the door or somewhere centrally, not to mention all the other equipment that's optional which can have very different interfaces or even not be fitted at all.

Feedback from the car can vary wildly too, many cars have a tachometer but some do not, some have an analog dial to show you engine rpm and speed, some have digital readouts or both, some have a trip computer to calculate your fuel economy and average speed etc, and the warning lights, some are standardized but some vary wildly between models... some cars even display manufacturer or model specific numeric fault codes. And all of these readouts may be behind the steering wheel, or perhaps located closer to the center of the car...

The interfaces presented by cars vary wildly, you can't have driven too many if you think the location of the indicator controls are the only difference.

Re:Ok..... why?

[chromatic]

Saying that people buy something just because it is popular is not even attempting to search for a root reason.

You should read the second half of my sentence. Look at Apple's iPod pages. See how many of them mention the clicky wheel. See how many of them mention that you can carry hundreds to tens of thousands of songs in your pocket. Then read the second half of my sentence again.

I believe (but can't prove) that the "intuitive interface" claim is a post purchase feel-good explanation given by people who want to explain why they've bought something trendy as anything more than emotional cliquish behavior. "It's obvious," they say. "This interface is objectively and intuitively better than anything else I used. I scoff at the ubiquitous product placement in television shows and movies and all of the PR-planted news stories and those silly iTunes commercials. I have good taste, darn it all!"

Fortunately, you and anyone else can compare the ratio of mentions of clicky wheel versus "You can carry lots of songs in your pocket!" on Apple's own site. I think we can both agree they have thought more about marketing iPods than either of us have.

Re:Ok..... why?

[Bonobo_Unknown]

And the gear shift, automatic, manual, paddle shift, pre-selector etc... And the selector is sometimes on the steering column, and sometimes in the center console.

Yes, there are cars that have different layouts. I haven't done any market research or anything, but I'd guess that in 90% of the cars on the road today, and almost 100% of passenger cars being made that they all conform to:

• Steering wheel in front of driver to turn (no paddles, levers or joysticks, although they have all been used before).
• An indicator / light controls on the left or right of the wheel.
• Wiper controls on the other side.
• Foot pedals in a standard layout
• Gear stick in the center of the cabin coming from the floor.

Yes I know there are cars with differences, I've even drive some, like the Renault 16, but the vast majority conform.

Re:Ok..... why?

[Bonobo_Unknown]

Actually the interface for the ipod is it's major selling point. The wheel thing has made Apple a fortune...
They may or may not say intuitive interface, but they will say ease of use...

Re:Ok..... why?

[chromatic]

Actually the interface for the ipod is [its] major selling point.

Research links, please.

Awesome!

[Chris Burke]

According to the Rasterman, when used with his updated illume stack and new Elementary widget set, E17 can now run in just 32MB of RAM, on an ARM9 processor clocked at 317MHz.

Cool!

Next step: Running E17 and an application! =D

Re:Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone else think that this guy, who is doing 2d graphics, has a last name of Rasterman?

Re:Awesome!

[Chris Burke]

No, I don't think he has a last name of Rasterman. I think that's his internet handle, and thus the connection between his name and 2D graphics is rather deliberate. :P

Re:Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

His last name is Haitzler... but of course I already knew that :)

Re:Awesome!

[Warbothong]

I've got an OpenMoko and I'm very happy with it hardware-wise. However, the software is currently Enlightenment, some Enlightenment ToolKit based apps, some GTK stuff (some of which is left over from the previous OpenMoko GUI) and all of the holes patched up with QTopia/QT Extended tools.

It's not really a case of E17 and an application, its a case of E17 and GTK libraries and daemons, and QT libraries..... and an application.

I'm trying to get started hacking on it to fix this, but I'm having some trouble with getting Enlightenment libraries installed on my Debian laptop (no matter how nice the OpenMoko keyboard is, I'm not using it to program :P )

Re:Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if you want to see E17 running with applications, take a look at the videos that have been made available by the people at ProFUSION, they have been working on getting E17 to run in other embedded devices. Just search for E17 and imx31 on Youtube or take a look here (http://blog.gustavobarbieri.com.br/2008/10/16/running-illume-everywhere/) or here (http://www.libertatia.org/blog/?p=66).

Re:Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

You can VNC into the phone and use your computer's keyboard to code directly on the phone. See the openmoko wiki article on VNC for precise info on that.

Re:Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

I too have e17 on my desktop; it's for personal use only anyway. I've picked a theme but the apps that I would run on it look and feel like an afterthought and don't wear the 'skin' properly. Let's say I picked a darkish theme, and launch xchat. The borders and buttons are fine, but the rest of the window is white; the window 'panes' and text are configurable from xchat, but where is the white coming from? I wish e17 could 'bully' the app into wearing the dark skin.

e17 is a moving target (as in, get yours from svn) that I am not sure where to ask for assistance in seemingly small matters like this. I've had to trade off then from using a gui-type file manager to plain ol console driven mc, running in an Eterm. Because any other file manager would appear 'tacked on'.

Re:Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no SDK? You should be able to use your laptop to tether with the OpenMoko device?

The Windows API is seeing its end

[erroneus]

It is clear that the Windows API with all its backward compatibility and all that are completely unsuitable for the variety of computing devices in use and development today. When the push was for bigger and faster, that was not a problem for Microsoft -- their bloat and instability were less noticeable in that environment. But now that things are shifting to smaller, lighter, more efficient devices, the pressure is on Microsoft to answer that need -- and so far, their answer is WindowsXP... which isn't good enough. (Makes me wonder why they don't pull Win98se out of moth balls, hide DOS and work from there.) WindowsCE seems like something they might try to use but it doesn't "look" suitable in all the places I have seen it applied... I could be wrong, but as Microsoft's efforts seem to be focused on putting WindowsXP on everything that a small computer that normally sells with Linux, I would have to say that Microsoft sees WinCE as functionally unsuitable to compete in that arena. (perhaps it is because there are few apps for WinCE and those are typically written by the OEM distributor of the devices that contain WinCE?)

Bottom line? WinXP isn't suitable and Microsoft will have to make something ENTIRELY new if they want to complete with Linux in this market... or... adapt FreeBSD like Apple did. Either way, it would be a huge blow to the Microsoft ego and very upsetting to their developers.

It's funny that Microsoft feels they can't afford NOT to compete.

Re:The Windows API is seeing its end

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

You are correct, on many of the points; but I don't think that things are quite as dire for MS as you say(or as I would like). As you say, the future of win32 is not all that thrilling and something new is needed, particularly if they are to have any reasonable hope of putting together a coherent set of software on multiple architectures.

This, however, is were .net comes in. Note that, for .net, MS introduced a VM, the Common Language Runtime, which allows programs to be distributed in CIL instead of a platform specific binary format. They haven't achieved write once, run anywhere yet by any means; but the logic behind the .net strategy is pretty obvious. If MS can shift windows programming over to .net, all they have to do is port the .net framework to whatever platform they wish to support.

MS needs to tread carefully with regards to the masses of win32 legacy stuff, because their ability to run it is a powerful selling point; but they are hardly without a strategy that is promising, at least in theory.

Re:The Windows API is seeing its end

[notamisfit]

Forget MS vs Linux, or MS vs Apple, this is gonna be the *real* computing holy war of the future: MS as computing institution vs MS as springboard for screwy new technology.

Re:The Windows API is seeing its end

[nevali]

Once upon a time, I ran Linux on a 386-33 with 4MB of RAM, a 40MB hard disk, and still had room for X11. Admittedly, not room for much else.

More recently, I've run it on a 586 clocked at around 66MHz with either 4 or 8MB of RAM and 32MB of storage space. And still run X11. *and* an application or two.

Windows CE ran on the same hardware, but was significantly more of a pain in the ass to work with.

Re:The Windows API is seeing its end

[nevali]

actually, now that I think about it, I used to run a roomfull of 486DX2-66s with 16MB of RAM and 500MB hard disks. They ran Debian âoePotatoâ (2.2), just to give you an idea of vintage. They ran it rather *well*, at that.

Re:The Windows API is seeing its end

[CAIMLAS]

(Makes me wonder why they don't pull Win98se out of moth balls, hide DOS and work from there.) WindowsCE seems like something they might try to use but it doesn't "look" suitable in all the places I have seen it applied... I could be wrong, but as Microsoft's efforts seem to be focused on putting WindowsXP on everything that a small computer that normally sells with Linux, I would have to say that Microsoft sees WinCE as functionally unsuitable to compete in that arena.

Windows CE basically is Windows 9x; or, at least, many of the API calls are very similar. I would not be surprised if they share the same code base, way back when. And since WinCE can run on multiple arch, it'd make a much better choice than W9x.

(Note that Windows Mobile is not Windows CE; Windows Mobile runs on top of Windows CE - the shell. I see no reason why MS couldn't replace this shell with something more suitable for general computing for users.)

Fact is, most computers are entirely over-scoped for what most people use them for. Most people could get along just fine with a CE device, provided it had a decent web browser, Office, image and video viewing, audio playing, silly flash games and cards, and access to their MFD printers. That's entirely obtainable for Microsoft, I think: put WinCE on an Eee type device (with a MIPS or ARM processor with additional media decoding chips), write a "portable" office suite (think: just the basics - spellcheck, etc.), and make sure IE works properly on the device, and they'd have something which would, IMO, sell very well.

It has been shown repeatedly - and several times by Apple in the last couple years - that simplicity sells well. People like simply functional devices, and with the way things are going culturally, they/we also like efficient, hassle-free devices.

The "general purpose" PC was never designed, primarily, with the user in mind. It was designed as a general purpose machine, and the "programmer's utility" was never far from the surface. But we've gotten to the point where PCs are literally everywhere, and we need to move beyond that for common computing devices: accessible is necessary, but most users would prefer it all be hidden under a pretty widget. Think: OS X, iPods, the dashboard on most US made vehicles.

Simple complex devices appeal because they speak of luxury - simply enough.

Re:The Windows API is seeing its end

[Bert64]

Your right that XP isn't suitable, because of it's size and complexity...
And CE doesn't offer compatibility with existing apps, it needs apps specifically written for it...
Here's where the problem lies tho.

Apps already exist for XP, but implementing the same APIs to make something compatible with existing apps results in XP, something rather too big for small machines...
But when they try and design something new, they lose their biggest advantage - existing locked in userbase and applications. Infact, this now goes against them.

You have ce, or windows mobile etc, which have to start from scratch with new applications, compared to linux which is the same linux that can run the same apps with minimal effort.

Porting apps to windows ce/mobile requires significant effort, and many of the apps are proprietary so those interested in doing the porting don't have access to the source, and those who do have the source aren't interested in porting them. you have to do significant work to make the apps compile at all, let alone trying to tailor them for the different interface.

Porting apps to run on a linux based phone however, can be as simple as a recompile, and the majority of linux apps have source code available making this a very easy task to accomplish. most work done with embedded linux centers around changing the interface of apps to be more suited to the embedded device.

Re:The Windows API is seeing its end

[Bert64]

As you pointed out, win32 compatibility is a powerful selling point, infact it's probably their biggest selling point...

They don't have write once run anywhere with .net yet, java on the other hand is years ahead, although in both cases the overhead of running a VM on an embedded device is far from ideal.

It seems they can't get win32 running on an embedded device, whereas the linux/osx apis do run on such devices...

Even if they did get win32 running on an embedded device, it would still be a different processor architecture requiring a recompile, and most win32 apps do not come with source making this rather difficult.

I think embedded devices should have the same APIs and run the same applications (albeit with different interfaces) as full blown desktops... I want a linux phone that can be connected to a keyboard and monitor so i can use it as a full blown computer wherever i go, and apps which seperate the backend functionality from the frontend interface - so i can have a choice of interfaces to the same app.
I want to be able to do stuff on my phone, but also be able to easily use exactly the same apps on a more powerful system should i need the extra resources for whatever purpose.

Microsoft simply don't offer that at the moment, whereas others (linux, java) already do.. And i think it's ridiculous and arrogant of them to come along with something new proprietary and incompatible, rather than building on or simply using the existing functional platforms. All it does is dilute the developer pool, slow progress and diminish the quality for the end users, as developers waste their time reinventing the wheel for microsoft's not-compatible-with-anything-else platforms.

Re:The Windows API is seeing its end

[Bert64]

Most people could get along just fine with a CE device, provided it had a decent web browser, Office, image and video viewing, audio playing, silly flash games and cards, and access to their MFD printers.

Yes, they would, but why microsoft? their biggest advantage is compatibility with their existing mass of apps, which would be lost using a ce-based machine... Giving them no advantage over linux, while still retaining the majority of the disadvantages.

The linux based small laptops work well, tho the manufacturers could put a lot more effort in towards making them work better... My eee for instance runs much faster with gentoo than it did with the default xandros, since it comes preinstalled on a single piece of hardware theres no reason the same performance tweaks couldn't have been made, and the available optional packages with xandros were rather limited.

Re:The Windows API is seeing its end

[Lennie]

I've build a DNS-server on a 386 with Porato ones. That also worked (for as long as it was needed).

Re:The Windows API is seeing its end

[Lennie]

Sorry, that was Hamm I think, not Potato as I wanted to type.

I'm sure Microsoft will get there

[David Gerard]

They can leave XP available for another several years. Just enough for Moore's Law to finally make it not look stupidly fat! Honest!

Re:I'm sure Microsoft will get there

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow a Score:2, Flamebait. Congrats.

method that he does this

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the things that's neat about e17 and the way that they get it to run on things like a phone is that every thing they can is run as a module now. For an embedded device like a phone you maybe aren't that interested in some special effects like a dropshadow or resolution widget so you can turn off anything that's not needed.

Another thing that makes this possible is that e17 themes are very customizable. You can define nearly everything about how the window borders and modules are drawn in the theme itself so different themes can be completely different from each other. You can check out some of the variability in the themes site: http://exchange.enlightenment.org

Blackbox

[evilviper]

Wouldn't a slimmed-down Enlightenment just be Blackbox with transparency, menus that "slide" a bit, and more "textured" themes? What did I miss?

E17 can now run in just 32MB of RAM, on an ARM9 processor clocked at 317MHz.

Blackbox seems to be using all of 4MBs of RAM here, and next to no CPU time. With a 3MB binary, that's not surprising.

Re:Blackbox

[raw-sewage]

See Raster's news page. Scroll down to Sunday 29 May 2005 or search for "E17 is being optimised". It's obviously quite dated, but interesting anyway. Granted, if someone's product looks good because of the tests the same person wrote, you have to take the results with a grain of salt... but it is all open source. I have always hoped someone who knew X really well would come along and make a more complete window manager performance and benchmarking suite.

Also of interest on the same news page is the Monday, 21 November 2005 entry, "Memory fragementation under Linux and Enlightenment". If nothing else, it's evidence that Rasterman truly has put a lot of time and effort---or at the very least, thought---into the performance and system requirements of his software. Can't fault him for that.

Re:Blackbox

[PitaBred]

Maybe. But those effects are what make a GUI look less 1990 and more 2009. Enlightenment is more or less where lightweight meets design and "prettiness", rather than the polarity of KDE, Gnome or Blackbox and Fluxbox, etc.

Re:Blackbox

[evilviper]

Enlightenment is more or less where lightweight meets design and "prettiness", rather than the polarity of KDE, Gnome or Blackbox and Fluxbox, etc.

Okay. And how about Sawfish...? (Without GNOME)

You certainly can't say it doesn't look modern, since it IS the entire basis (WM) for the GNOME desktop (just as Enlightenment was back in the 0.x days), and it's certainly fast when used on its own.

Re:Blackbox

[yanyan]

Blackbox seems to be using all of 4MBs of RAM here, and next to no CPU time. With a 3MB binary, that's not surprising.

That's pretty big for blackbox. Mine's only 380 Kb.

Re:Blackbox

[pizzach]

That comparison is a bit outdated. E17 for all of it's rewrites is really turning into it's own desktop environment. People are writing applications for efl (Enlightenment Foundation Libraries) much like people write applications for gtk or qt. It doesn't rely on gnome to fill in missing functionality like it used to.

Quote from their page:

DR17 of the Enlightenment window manager represents an evolution into the next generation of desktop environments: the desktop shell. DR17 will provide integration between files and your environment in a seamless manner while encompassing a graphically rich and flexible architecture. It will not compete with GNOME or KDE, but be a completely new way of visualizing your desktop, based around the EFL which was built from the ground up for this task.

In other words, they're aiming for a Desktop Environment...but they are trying to be original.

Re:Blackbox

[shish]

Blackbox seems to be using all of 4MBs of RAM here, and next to no CPU time. With a 3MB binary, that's not surprising.

E17 is using 12MB here, no cpu time, with a 1.1MB binary :P

Re:Blackbox

[MattBurke]

For many users, myself included, the themes make the window manager.

I use Enlightenment DR16 with the Arctic theme and have done for around 10 years because it's very minimal, uses colours that are easy to the eye and I can middle-click the title bar to 'shade' a window which reduces to pretty much just the width of the titlebar text.

Sure, almost any other window manager could probably also give me what I want, but I'm crap with graphics software and haven't got the time nor inclination to figure out stuff like theme configuration files, so I just take my desktop settings (~/.gnome* and ~/.enlightenment) with me when I get a new job/computer. I bet that's applicable for quite a few people who've used X every day for the last decade or two too.

Re:Blackbox

[Anonymous Coward]

sure you want menus sliding off while you try to check your emails in the subway...

Re:Blackbox

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. It fills a niche inbetween.

Normal users don't want to use BlackBox on their phone nor do they want a bloated DE. Keep in mind E17 is a DE; not a WM. Also, it supports a moving background with little to no CPU usage. GNOME and KDE cannot do this.

Mamona (open source Maemo) also uses E17.

Re:Blackbox

[evilviper]

Yeah, mine wasn't stripped. 500kB.

not bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

... those screenshots look like iPhone.

So why isn't Enlightenment used on netbooks?

[Anonymous Coward]

Netbooks using lightweight Linux desktops don't often seem to choose enlightment for their window manager. You see the likes of matchbox in Maemo and GNOME mobile, openbox in lxde, ICEwm on the eee PC, Xfwm4 in Xfce, etc.

I'm guessing that enlightenment is too heavy for netbooks (as is GNOME's metacity). Is this E17 possibly going to change that?

Re:So why isn't Enlightenment used on netbooks?

[Shade of Pyrrhus]

From the article:

With the march of time and processor power, the current Enlightement 0.17 release, aka "E17," has come to be considered a lightweight alternative to GNOME and KDE, used for example in gOS 3.0 , a commercial Linux distribution aimed at "low-powered" netbooks. Yet, it appears that E17 could be primed for a renaissance of relevance in even smaller devices.

Re:So why isn't Enlightenment used on netbooks?

[Erikderzweite]

E17 will be released right after Duke Nukem Forever by the look of it. And I'm talking about first alpha release here.

Re:So why isn't Enlightenment used on netbooks?

[the plant doctor]

It is. At least it's used on my netbook.

Re:So why isn't Enlightenment used on netbooks?

[dbIII]

The alpha release was of course out a very long time ago, which is why people are making fun of it. The difference with "Duke Nukem Forever" is that people are doing that as a day job. Now we are finally getting to a point where Enlightenment is co-inciding with Raster's day job of working on embedded systems so there's a bit more movement.

I cursed it

[Just Some Guy]

I switched to E from my aging Amiga. Now both of them are primarily used to power cell phones.

Sorry about that, folks. Maybe I'll switch to Vista to balance it out.

Re:I cursed it

[Bert64]

I installed linux (redhat 5.1) on my amiga back in the day and ran enlightenment on it... It was surprisingly quick too, even with just the AGA chipset and no zorro video card.

He doesn't seem to "get it" yet.

[Colin Smith]

Looking at the screenshots... In the same way the qt people didn't "get it" with Qtopia (do they now? I haven't checked for several years).

You can't simply dump a desktop windowing metaphor onto a phone. A phone has a tiny display and painfully inconvenient buttons. Lets see you hit one of those menus, pull a scroll bar. Try reading the tiny fonts.
 

Re:He doesn't seem to "get it" yet.

[Anonymous Coward]

just like I replied above about "sliding menus on the shaking subway", now I remember why I dont use E17!

'cos it f*cking slide it outside my 14'' widescreen monitor!

Since when is 32M small?

[efalk]

Excuse me, did I read that right? 32 meg? I hope that was supposed to be 32k. For 32M, I would expect it to do my taxes as well.

Re:Since when is 32M small?

[Anpheus]

The US tax code is probably more than 32 megabytes, even in its most efficient coding implementation.

Finally the lack of updates make sense

[CottonThePirate]

So enlightenment has been hanging around almost non-updated for 10 years (seems like anyway, I ran it in 2000 on Mandrake). Back then I was running a 500MHz Celeron. They were just waiting for cell phones to catch up to pick back up on development. Brilliant!

Re:Finally the lack of updates make sense

[iNiTiUM]

The Revision Log Begs to differ.

It gets updated quite a bit, there's releases every now and then, but it is still considered a development version.

Re:Finally the lack of updates make sense

[notamisfit]

It's the GNU Hurd of desktops!

Re:Finally the lack of updates make sense

[Anonymous Coward]

well, i've been using E17 for over 2 years, and is as stable as any other window manager. Thing is,they are pushing farther it, ti's realy amazing

Fluffyspider is E17-derived

[wdef]

Fluffyspider www.fluffyspider.com in Australia have had an E17-derived platform for MIDS, phones, set top boxes and the like for some time ("Fancypants"). But it's a commercial product.

Warning, Wikipedia power monger and corrupt admin

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/David_Gerard

Choice.

[felix85]

It would be nice to see this work on an Openmoko phone. It seems that alot of people have complained about the current interface and this would give people another option (if it is implemented properly). Even if it doesn't work at first it may inspire someone else to do it better considering it is opensource.

Re:Choice.

[Anonymous Coward]

my understanding is that raster is doing work with openmoko now. The current om software is based on the EFL (see openmoko's main page)

Re:Choice.

[richlv]

from outside, it's a bit confusing.
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/17th_September%2C_2008_-_Activity_since_launch says - "Raster left the project."

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates/October_3rd%2C_2008 - "Raster is still with us."

sounds like some weak hollywood movie with spirits and whatnot.

Re:Choice.

[dns_server]

He is quite active in #openmoko on freenode.net and is still active as a developer.
I am not sure if he is still an employee or not but he is still involved.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

E17

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I guess Enlightenment won't be needing to skip version numbers anytime soon.

Architecture warning...

[Anonymous Coward]

ARM-based systems that have non-memory-aligned hardware may have to use slower techniques to communicate with peripherals, such as E/I/E IO.

- Luno (too lazy to login)

Can the summary be any more unclear?

[ahecht]

Would it have killed the submitter to clue us in to what Enlightenment is? All I can get from the summary is that it is Linux related and now runs on cell phones. This isn't a telegraph, you're not paying by the letter, and there is nothing wrong with saying "the Enlightenment window manager" instead of just "Enlightenment".

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[yttrstein]

You needed to use three more characters in your google search, specifically these: "E17"

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[paniq]

No no, this is about actual enlightenment. Gautama Buddha will lecture from your cellphones built-in speakers, educating you and everyone else around you about the noble eightfold path, as you travel by train and cab.

I can hardly restrain myself. I want two!

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[Ant P.]

This isn't a tabloid either. The readers are assumed to generally have a clue, and how to use google.

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to be pedantic, they *are* paying by the letter; bandwidth isn't free.

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[hugzz]

Would it have killed the submitter to clue us in to what Enlightenment is? All I can get from the summary is that it is Linux related and now runs on cell phones. This isn't a telegraph, you're not paying by the letter, and there is nothing wrong with saying "the Enlightenment window manager" instead of just "Enlightenment".

If you dont already know what E17 is then this article isn't really for you anyway. The article is only of any interest to those who have used E17 on their desktop computer and thus might be excited at the prospect of being able to use it on their phone. For everyone else it's really a non-issue.

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[ZerdZerd]

Let me Enlighten you.

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[BPPG]

No no, this is about actual enlightenment.

Well, then there's no surprise that it's open source.

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[cp.tar]

... and ignore all mention of some former band with the same abbreviation.

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[inotocracy]

You read /. and you don't know what Enlightenment is?

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[Topis]

Funny? No.

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[Anonymous Coward]

Enlightenment is the 2nd best WM after WMaker

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[CAIMLAS]

Interested in using it on their phone?

Buddy, I'd be interested in actually getting a stable download of the fucking thing before the sources changed mid-checkout. I'd be bloody overjoyed to use it on my desktop.

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if we are supposed to search the keywords, why bother with any summary at all? I rather think TFS is intentionally a convenience to the audience... IOW, GP is spot on. :-)

(Not everybody uses Google's search, BTW.)

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[Anonymous Coward]

Generally people who use "googling" as a synonym for "web search" can be considered idiots...

Do you understand what "a summary" means? What purpose a summary serves?

Enlightenment isn't that widespread. I've had E16 in a box and really liked it, but it's to be expected that not all /. readers are familiar with that particular WM.

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[aug24]

Would it have killed you to clue us in to what Linux is? All I can get from your post is that it is computer related and now runs on cell phones. This isn't a telegraph, you're not paying by the letter, and there is nothing wrong with saying "the Linux Operating System" instead of just "Linux".

In other words, it's where you draw the line. No-one is going to explain the entire world to you, sooner or later you will have to teach yourself, not wait to be taught. Apparently that time is now.

Justin.

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[yttrstein]

Look, if you're unwilling or unable to click your mouse and press a few buttons when there's a term you're unfamiliar with, then the problem is your laziness, not the content of the article.

Would you have had Faulkner or Hemingway or Joyce include little dictionaries with all the hard words in them along with every book they wrote?

Wait that wouldn't work, because they should just explain them in the prose where your eyes are at that moment. You can't be bothered with dictionaries.

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[yttrstein]

Wow, I spank a guy for being a lazy fuckhead and not googling for his answer, but instead whining about it in a public forum---which USED to be one of the biggest taboos in all of the internet...

In fact, its a taboo that when I've brought it up before (though I haven't done it in a couple of years) usually generates 4s or 5s.

Is it really the case that the AOLers have finally gotten across the entire internet from usenet to slashdot after all these years? When was the invasion? I think I missed it completely.

Anyhow, sorry for the smackdown that I laid there. I'll be over here wrapping everything in padding and making sure everyone's hot water heaters cant go above 102F if you need me.

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[SCHecklerX]

I would normally agree, but in this case I think if you don't know about different WMs and their history, you are probably on the wrong site. It's sad that everyone these days thinks that Gnome or KDE are the only things out there. I personally did try E long ago, but didn't like having to hand-configure everything, so ended up using Windowmaker. If I want a file manager/app launcher, I turn to Rox.

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[archen]

That's probably very telling of how far behind Enlightenment has gotten.

Re:Can the summary be any more unclear?

[saintlupus]

I used Enlightenment on my first Linux box, a Motorola Mac clone running LinuxPPC.

Everything in that sentences is obsolete, dead, and buried.

I've been doing this stuff for too long.

--saint

Yes, its booming I got my first 'sale'

[shareme]

Yeah its booming I got my first 'sale' of mobile OS kernel hacking service.. Life is grand..:)

Uncanny!

[yttrstein]

"E17 can now run in just 32MB of RAM, on an ARM9 processor clocked at 317MHz."

The last time I tortured myself with Enlightenment, that's almost exactly the kind of machine I ran it on, about ten years ago.

I wonder why Rasterman didn't just grab some old Enlightenment code from his geriatric tree and nearly do a straight port.....oh.

Aw, snap!

[paniq]

At a first glance I thought this was about E17, the boyband.

My reaction remains unaltered though: wow, it's still around?

Re:over the top, much?

[Anonymous Coward]

actually, most of what's written in the ED's article is true, if you can get past the 3rd-grade poop humour. scary, isn't it?

and taking corrupt WP admins to task is exactly the opposite of hating it. if more people were willing to do it, WP would be a far better resource. it's no different than making sure everyone on slashdot knows about your shilling and dishonest activities.

BTW, who gave you permission to post more than twice a day?

At what cost though?

[vandan]

I agree it's cool that E17 runs on cellphones. Whether it's as cool as the UI of my HTC Touch is another matter.

But more to the point is the question of what's been sacrificed in order for this to happen. I think I've got the answer ...

Raster has been pushing in this direction for years now. Even before his year-long stint at OpenMoko, he's been devoting much time and effort to get E17 running respectably on very lean hardware. But at the same time, he's flatly refused to support compositing, and in particular, opengl compositing, ala texture_from_pixmap. The argument was that it's "not ready for prime time". But of course many people disagree with this and run Compiz on top of Gnome, KDE and XFCE. There have been a number of aborted attempts to get compiz ported to E17. Bang!, Egloo, Ecomorph projects come to mind, all of which at one point worked pretty well, but required changes to /e17/apps/e that weren't allowed at the time, and alas these projects have now all been abandoned.

As a result, Enlightenment has morphed from a project that pushed the envelope on linux desktops, to a project that just keeps up on cellphones. Sure it still runs on linux desktops, but so do other window managers that take better advantage of hardware and technology available this decade.

Raster says that compositing is 'back on the table' for an E18 release, which judging by current release timings, will be able 2015. Until then we get a half-arse hack of xcompmgr. I can't help feeling that all the users and developers after some bling have already moved to compiz, which is a pitty, as E17's infrastructure is still far better than the competition.

Re:At what cost though?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah... cause all my cell phones are packing an 8800GTS...

Not paying attention and misleading folk

[dbIII]

Maybe because other people actually releases stable code that other people can use

So Imlib, E 0.16 etc etc do not exist?

The other comments such as being behind other environments are just completely wrong in this context. Remember that Slashdot grew out of Rob Malda's enlightenment theme site which offered themes that could do more than Vista can now.

Running E17 full time. Wouldn't use anything else.

[deek]

I'm running E17 on my desktop right now. Been running it both at home and work for the last few years. It's by far my favourite window manager, for a variety of reasons:

* It's fast. Very fast.
* It feels clean and simple.
* Looks very good.
* Very customisable.
* Keyboard shortcuts for just about anything!
* Just about everything can be controlled or configured from the command prompt.

With E17, I can configure my desktop to be just a background picture. No start menus, strips, clocks, nothing. Then I can add whatever I want, starting with a simple left click on the background to bring up the Enlightenment configuration menu. From there, you can build it to your taste. Sure, it has it's own way of doing things, but it never forces a display feature onto you. It's all your choice to show.

Given, I run the development version, so it's not the easiest to get running. There's a nice script I use to download via CVS, compile up the source, and package it into deb files. I keep a copy of the deb packages for the last version I liked, and revert to that if the latest version is buggy. It's worked well for me so far.

As such, I wouldn't recommend E17 to your average user. For the more technically inclined, though, it beats anything I've ever used. I've tweaked E17 to behave exactly how I want it. Now I feel like I'm working with my computer, instead of struggling against it. Truly, I have been enlightened.

Re:Running E17 full time. Wouldn't use anything el

[fbriere]

* It's fast. Very fast.
* It feels clean and simple.
* Looks very good.
* Very customisable.
* Keyboard shortcuts for just about anything!
* Just about everything can be controlled or configured from the command prompt.

Apart from that last point, the same could be said about fluxbox.

I myself migrated from E to fluxbox a few months ago, and found it to have that same no-frills attitude. (Or rather, just-the-frills-you-want-and-nothing-else.) From what I gather, Blackbox and its offspring appear to have filled the void left by E16 rotting away and E17 never releasing.

Re:Running E17 full time. Wouldn't use anything el

[deek]

Nice. I've never seen fluxbox before. Had a read of the features, and it looks very nifty. I love the concept of tabs and the keys-file.

I can't seem to find any reference to virtual desktops or a pager though. It's a shame, because that's a major feature for me, along with the ability to set zero edge resistance.

Great...

[drew]

Now when can I run it on my desktop?

And no, compiling from svn doesn't count, especially given the number of components / dependencies. I may have had time to dork with that when I was in college, but not now...

Re:Great...

[shish]

And no, compiling from svn doesn't count, especially given the number of components / dependencies

Dependencies are minimal, it's designed to run anywhere. The components can be downloaded and built with a simple shell script

I may have had time to dork with that when I was in college, but not now...

You're on slashdot, you have free time :P

Re:Great...

[lanc]

look for easy_e17.sh on the web.
single script to build and install e17 for you. HTH.

Re:Running E17 full time. Wouldn't use anything el

[dbIII]

I use both and have fluxbox set up on a lot of machines for when people need to use some ancient software that only runs in 8 bit colour. The users will typically use it only once per year (so would be prone to forget everything between uses) but it is simple enough to use that I haven't had a single question about how to do things with it.

I've also used E with KDE due to kwin having problems with remote windows from some old motif based software.

Also E16 is still getting bugfixes, it's nice to use the same theme I was using in 1999 even though both gnome and KDE are catching up to that point.

Re:Running E17 full time. Wouldn't use anything el

[dbIII]

It certainly has virtual desktops, not sure about the pager since I ALT-F* between them and don't show a pager.

It's "Openmoko", not OpenMoko, not Open Moko

[MrvFD]

To make it worse, it was OpenMoko at first, after which it was changed to Openmoko. And that is the project, not the product. Also another similar nitpick, it's not Openmoko FreeRunner, it's Neo FreeRunner, and more precisely FIC Neo FreeRunner. I think I see these wrong more often than not. Then again, why they have to have "Openmoko" but "FreeRunner", and why there has to be Neo, FIC, Openmoko which all sound like they might be the manufacturer...

Re:Running E17 full time. Wouldn't use anything el

[deek]

Thanks for that. I thought it'd be unlikely that a modern Linux window manager was missing virtual desktops. It's good to know that fluxbox has it.

I don't necessarily use the pager to move between virtual desktops. I generally use it to see what windows are located on what desktop. I also use the pager to move windows between different desktops, when I need to reshuffle things.

This is the funniest thing I've read in ages

[CAIMLAS]

This is pretty funny on several levels for someone who's been dabbling with old (circa 2000-2002) HPCs and linux/netbsd, used E16 (and briefly E17) in the 1999-2002 time frame. It just astounds me that E could run on something like this.

Anyone remember how E was (still is?) a bloated hog and required a LOT of system resources to run? Now, can you imagine E running on a portable handheld from the same computing era? That blows my mind.

Any chance of this scaled down E being available for desktop use? At the very least, I'm going to have to give that snapshot a try!

I'm going to have to see if this can build/run on my Mobilepro 780 - a 167MHz mipsel with 32Mb RAM. Doubtful - though I'm sure it'll run on something a little newer just fine.

That is why e17 has to look for a new home

[SmallFurryCreature]

Enlightment (e16) has been used for a longtime as the actual window manager for Gnome.

But PC's have gotten more powerful, we are now dual core. That means a window manager no longer locks up because the CPU is busy. Even windows (and windows has ALWAYS been terrible as a window manager) runs smoothly now.

E17 doesn't use the GPU, the most powerful component on your PC that is often idle when showing the desktop, by design. That idea was GOOD when GPU's weren't common, but on the PC they are now.

In fact mobile phones are now getting GPU's. Since E17 is far from ready, even if goes to the mobile phones, will it be needed?

I use the Duke Nukem Forever reference for a reason. Part of the reason for its eternal delays is that they took so long that each time the engine they used got outdated. As the industry moved on, DNF got left behind and had to get started again. E17 is running the same risk.

Linux is good, a low powered OS is good, but is anybody waiting for say an 8 bit OS? That is low power, but we moved on.

As said, I use E17 because it is good at something else beside being fast, being minimal. I don't need desktop icons and don't want them. Nor sounds not bells and whistles. I just want the basics to look pretty and E17 does that. But I don't need it anymore, I only still run it because I really do NOT like KDE or Gnome. I do NOT want a coherent desktop where everything works together. I run an app, the app does what I want and the window manager draws the window and THAT is it.

But I am a very small market. Others want transparancy, something e17 doesn't do. Others want hardware accelerated graphics, something e17 doesn't do.

When raster first showed a vid of E17 running on a mobile app (Zaurus if I remember right) it was nice looking. But we got more power now. We got iPhone and Android and Nokia's phones. E17 is out of date before it every launched, just like every build of DNF.

Re:That is why e17 has to look for a new home

[Bert64]

Personally i want hardware accelerated graphics, not to look pretty but to offload work from the CPU...
Most computers these days come with a reasonably powerful GPU, makes no sense for it to sit idle while your CPU could be better occupied doing other things.

Re:That is why e17 has to look for a new home

[dorward]

Enlightment (e16) has been used for a longtime as the actual window manager for Gnome.

Well it was. It was replaced by Metacity as the default window manager for Gnome over half a decade ago.

Re:That is why e17 has to look for a new home

[Fujisawa Sensei]

Enlightment (e16) has been used for a longtime as the actual window manager for Gnome.

Well it was. It was replaced by Metacity as the default window manager for Gnome over half a decade ago.

Wasn't it Enlightnment, then Sawfish then Metacity?

Re:That is why e17 has to look for a new home

[dorward]

Wasn't it Enlightnment, then Sawfish then Metacity?

I think you're right - which would count out E even earlier then 2003 (which is when Metacity got in)

Re:That is why e17 has to look for a new home

[dhasenan]

There's the bling module for e17 that supports transparency and other effects. I haven't found a use for it, but it exists.

To those who want a release

[shish]

The repository is here, it works fine.

I'm not sure whether to be happy, because desktop linux is simple to the point where building from source is considered unusual and hard; or sad, because I'm hearing this from people who are supposed to be geeks...

Re:To those who want a release

[chromatic]

I'm not sure whether to be happy, because desktop linux is simple to the point where building from source is considered unusual and hard; or sad, because I'm hearing this from people who are supposed to be geeks...

I appreciate the possibility of making changes and recompiling software if I need to (and sometimes I take advantage of that), but I have no desire to do that for every piece of software I use regularly. I'm sure Carsten has no desire to support whatever happened to be at HEAD whatever day I decided to make a checkout, and I have no desire to trade time I could spend doing things productively rather than keeping a nightly or weekly checkout up to date, reporting bugs, bisecting HEAD breakage, et cetera.

No, wrong tool for the job.

[BitZtream]

No, I don't want to run software designed for a desktop on my phone. Stop trying to shoe horn software into places it doesn't belong and focus on releasing it where it belongs.

Why is it that techies think this sort if thing is cool, but if a handyman or construction worker saw you trying to use a jackhammer to put a nail in your house they would realize you were a complete moron instantly?

Do because you should, not because you can.

Re:No, wrong tool for the job.

[Just Some Guy]

No, I don't want to run software designed for a desktop on my phone. Stop trying to shoe horn software into places it doesn't belong and focus on releasing it where it belongs.

Not that I particularly care about Enlightenment, but what distinction are you drawing between large, stationary computers and small, portable computers? The main relevant difference in this case is screen size - E isn't an RDBMS or DVD transcoder - and surely E can be adjusted to account for that.

Re:No, wrong tool for the job.

[BitZtream]

Screen size, input methods, shortcut methods, methods to alert the user of problems, memory usage, processor usage, storage usage, everything about the two? The only things they have in common are that they both take input and both display it to the user. For the most part the way they display it to the user is via a 'screen' of some sort, but other than that they two devices share very little in common as far as the way the user interface should be done to make it efficient.

On a desktop you pretty much always have a keyboard, mouse, and monitor. On a portable device like a phone you have at best a 'monitor'. The keyboard is optional, the mouse is probably replaced by touch screen or stylus, you generally don't have multiple buttons for the 'mouse' replacement like you do on the desktop. The screen is a fraction of the size of the desktop enviroment, reguardless of resolution.

Really, anyone who knows UI design knows better than to try to shove a desktop UI onto a phone or other small portable device, they just aren't the same.

Both cars and airplanes move people and cargo from one point to another, and they sometimes share a sorta common interface for 'steering' if the aircraft happens to use a wheel. But even the way the 'steering wheel' (yoke) works in an aircraft is completely different from a car. You turn the wheel to the right, you bank right, rudder peddles are used to just point the aircraft in another direction, and if you tried to do that you'd quickly find out how badly it works. Aircraft don't have a gas pedel, and the 'brake' pedals on small aircraft work differently than the do in a car as they are tied to the rudder pedals (at least in the small aircraft I've flown, larger aircraft generally seperate ground steering from the flying controls). In a car you have a throttle pedal, in an aircraft you have levers or push/pull knobs. You don't roll (bank) or climb and dive in a car.

Try to put the control systems of a car in an aircraft and you won't find anyone to fly it because its not going to work. Only techies are silly enough to try to do something like that, likely because they won't die when they realize just how unusable it is.

Just because they serve the same basic function at the highest levels doesn't mean the should be approached anything like each other.

e17 is How is Should Be

[mrpacmanjel]

Actually, I've always liked Enlightenment - it's small and very powerful and at the time it's effects were ahead of compiz.
It also runs on an old 500Mhz, 192Mb ram laptop (on my other computer it just flys - and I don't mean in a "throw it out the window" kind of way!)

It's the simplicity of software like this that makes me think that modern desktops today seem to be almost a "law unto itself".

Compiz et all make great eye candy but after a while I like to disable the effects and give my laptop cpu fan a rest.

I know it's progress and computers are more powerful etc.. but really how powerful does a computer need to be to run a "desktop"?
(I'd be as well installing Vista if I want that experience - I know cheap shot!)

For me, the desktop should be unintrusive and let the applications be the star and not hog my cpu time generating special effects.

I'm glad Rasterman has not included opengl support in e17, if he does include it in the future I hope it will be optional component.

At the end of the day I want my computer to have as much resources as possible to run applications.

From an user's point of view "using" a computer needs to be simpler (and I don't mean in a Gnome "let's remove all options" kind of way!).

Just the ramblings of a burnt-out programmer!

Missed the boat

[Anonymous Coward]

If Enlightenment had actually managed to release E17 in a reasonable time, I would certainly be using it and, I suspect, a lot more people would be too. They were years ahead of things like Beryl, and doing it without needing fancy 3d accelerated graphics cards. It looked amazing, but being eternally in alpha, it was useless. Pity.

info

[Anonymous Coward]

FTFA:
Additionally, Rasterman was named lead graphics architect earlier this year by OpenMoko, an FIC spin-out that sells open hardware designs and supports OpenMoko.org, a group working to build an open source Linux mobile phone software stack.

Rasterman does not work for openmoko anymore since 31st of august.
http://www.rasterman.com/index.php?page=News

Re:Running E17 full time. Wouldn't use anything el

[SuperBeaker]

Another shoutout for fluxbox. I've used it for years - even after trying out E17. E17 looked like it could be nice ... someday. That was 3 years ago! Honestly, does anyone actually expect E17 to be released? Fluxbox has an even smaller footprint, is easily customizable, and is simple.

Not so

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, they would, but why microsoft? their biggest advantage is compatibility with their existing mass of apps, which would be lost using a ce-based machine

Not so. My wife uses OneNote all the time on her TMobile Wing. I use Excel and Word all the time on my TMobile Shadow. I even transfer the Excel files from my phone to use with Gnumeric on my PC.

Surprising to me, Excel has proven to be the killer app for my phone. I thought it was going to be Opera when I first bought it.

Re:Not so

[Bert64]

Yeah but it's not proper Excel, last i checked it was a massively cut down version with missing features and compatibility problems with it's bigger counterpart. People complain that OpenOffice lacks features and compatibility, but Mobile Excel is worse... A linux based device could easily have OpenOffice compiled for it.

Re:Running E17 full time. Wouldn't use anything el

[Rennt]

When I was just mucking around with linux for fun it was cool to have an environment like you describe, I used fluxbox, and it was hand built to behave exactly the way I liked it.

I grew out of it though, now days I use Gnome (even though I actually prefer KDE) because it is standard in corporate environments, and it's just wasted effort to go through weeks of tweaking to get a config you are happy with, especially since your work flow patterns become incompatible with every machine except your own.

e17, not KDE, used in gOS 3, netbooks

[nerdyH]

Period after KDE, new sentence, "E17 is used, for example, in gOS 3, a lightweight distro for nerbooks." You seem to be reading the sentence as if there were a 'which' after 'KDE,' but making two sentences would have eliminated the ambiiguity for those not used to reading long sentences. hth

Re:Running E17 full time. Wouldn't use anything el

[fbriere]

To be fair, fluxbox workspaces are the equivalent of E's multiple desktops; I don't think it has anything matching E's virtual desktops. (And yes, I do miss those sometimes.) There is therefore no edge flipping, although moving a window past the edge will move to the next workspace.

As for pagers, there is at least one out there (fbpager), but I found I didn't need a pager as much as I did with E. With a middle-click, I can pull a list of all workspaces, and all windows in any of them (similar to E, if I recall). Most importantly, the "Send To" command makes it easy to send a window to another workspace. Also, you could have the (optional) taskbar display all windows, instead of only those in the current workspace.

Re:Running E17 full time. Wouldn't use anything el

[Provocateur]

I've tried blackbox (with its bbpager) and E and what blew me away (this was e16) was that the pager on high quality actually was a snapshot of what was on the workspace. I was told it was a hack but the best thing about that feature was that come back to your pc after a couple of hours and you remember where everything was when you left. I truly miss that on e17.

I have not seen anything to match that. And hands down it can make an ancient Thinkpad out-mac a Mac when it comes to eye candy.

Hey twitter!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget to pay your $699 licensing fee you cock smoking teabagger!

Good post!

[gossimerwebhost]

I did not understand much, but I am trying to figure out what's it really all about!