Feds Target "Mongols" Biker Club's Intellectual Property

couchslug writes in with a Reuters account of a Federal raid on a California-based motorcycle club, the Mongols, on charges "ranging from murder and robbery to extortion, money laundering, gun trafficking and drug dealing." The interesting twist is that the authorities are asking the courts to seize the IP of the biker club — specifically, their trademarked name "Mongols." "Federal agents and police in seven states arrested more than 60 members of the Mongols motorcycle gang on Tuesday in a sweep that also targeted for the first time an outlaw group's 'intellectual property,' prosecutors said. The arrests cap a three-year undercover investigation in which US agents posed as gang members and their girlfriends to infiltrate the group, even submitting to polygraph tests administered by the bikers ... [T]he name 'Mongols,' which appears on the gang's arm patch insignia, was trademarked by the group. The indictment seeks a court order outlawing further use of the name, which would allow any police officer 'who sees a Mongol wearing this patch ... to stop that gang member and literally take the jacket right off his back' ..."

Comments

Not how trademarks work

[QuantumG]

I'm not aware of any law that can prevent a particular logo from appearing on a jacket.

This sounds like pipe dream bullshit.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[QuantumG]

Ummm... no. Really. Tell me you don't believe that, please. "If you can put it on a t-shirt, then it's free speech." isn't just a witty one liner ya know. Trademarks control trade. It may be illegal to sell a t-shirt with someone else's logo on it, but there's no law against wearing one.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[ushering05401]

I grew up in L.A. and had an integrated social circle that drew from a pretty wide swath of communities. After what happened in '92 there was legally sanctioned trouble for people wearing certain clothes, having certain tattoos etc. I know that someone will inevitably point out that the policies were eventually scaled back, but there was a time in L.A. where law abiding youths of certain appearances/demographics literally had to fear the legally authorized power wielded by police.

IIRC the Rampart scandal grew out of policies put in place after '92...

The world has changed since those days, and I fear that this development is not pipe dream bullshit as you suggest.

On another note: Forgive the Godwin, and correct me if I am wrong, but don't some European countries have criminal penalties for displaying a swastika even in the form of satire or parody?

Re:Not how trademarks work

[retchdog]

In principle, the government can nationalize the trademark and after that, enforce against "unauthorized use" by the bikers. It would (should) eventually fail if challenged, because it's after all an end-run around the real problem. I also don't think it would work in the first place.

Also, in principle you're not supposed to be able to get a tasteless or obscene trademark, just like copyright didn't used to apply to banned books. This ought to include gang insignia afaic. But then again, there were a bunch of alcoholic drinks named after Katrina which got trademarked, so I guess the trademark people are asleep just like the patent people.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[eltaco]

On another note: Forgive the Godwin, and correct me if I am wrong, but don't some European countries have criminal penalties for displaying a swastika even in the form of satire or parody?

yes, most prominently, and possibly the only one, germany. swastikas and generally nazi symbols which have glorifying character are forbidden. satire, parody and historical uses are legal. for instance "der untergang" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363163/) can show swastikas and do the heil hitler thingy. In contrast, the german version of the movie eurotrip (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0356150/) had the scene cut out, where the german kid drew himself a hitler mustache and paced like a nazi.
games like return to castle wolfenstein aren't sold in germany.
also, it's is illegal to deny the holocaust and can lead to imprisonment.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[QuantumG]

Are you just stupid or what? Selling T-shirts with a logo on them that you are not authorized to use may well be something someone could be sued for. Wearing one of these T-shirts is not trade and therefore Trademark law has nothing to say about it.

For fuck sake, what's wrong with you people?

Re:Not how trademarks work

[cayenne8]

"And the person above was correct, it's go give LEO's a reason to pull them over."

No...I gotta go with the other poster, what you wear should give the police NO reason to pull you over, even if a trademarked logo is taken over, that does not prohibit ANYONE from wearing it, nor does it present reasonable cause for pulling someone over.

If pulling someone over just for what they wear or look like is on the books...then we are really in serious trouble in the states.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[Martin Blank]

You had to obtain the shirt with the logo somehow. Even if you got it for free, that would be an unsanctioned use and dilution of the trademark, and because you accepted it, you participated in the trade (especially if you paid for it), and therefore would be a party to the infringing action.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[evanbd]

Regardless, it would be a civil violation, not a criminal one. The owner would have to pursue civil measures to get them to stop wearing it; the police can't enforce trademark usage without a court order to that effect, since no crime is being committed until the person using the trademark violates a court order. Of course, they may have committed a tort and be liable, but that still doesn't mean the police can take their stuff until a court specifically says so.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[rk]

Wow, the government using a logo of a criminal gang. Truth in advertising at long last!

Re:Not how trademarks work

[eosp]

And if you made it yourself?

Re:Not how trademarks work

[NormalVisual]

Don't they then have to defend the trade mark?

I'd think so, which brings to mind a way to deal with the idiocy if the government chooses to go down that road - simply make it known to the government that you're using the trademark via certified letter, and get as many people as you know to do the same, and let the cycle continue. You'd have be ready for the potential legal consequences (dilution, etc.), since there's a pretty big potential of confusion between the Feds and the Mongols, being that they're both armed gangs with a limited grasp on the concept of freedom and all.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[Martin Blank]

I suspect that the first thing the DOJ would do, then, is to get a court order against all members of the Mongols pertaining to the use of the logo. Once the court order is there, they'd have potential reason to move on those seen wearing it.

Of course, this does nothing to stop the Mongols from simply using another insignia, one that does not directly reference the Mongol name. It would spread throughout the organization in weeks, if not days, and the whole exercise would lose its value.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[Martin Blank]

While that may work for someone not in the Mongols organization, it's my understanding that the patch is awarded, not personally made.

In any case, even if you made it, you're getting into personal, possibly willful violation of the trademark. If it's worn during any sanctioned Mongol activity -- even an illegal one -- then it's use of the trademark in trade, and a violation. As I mentioned above, if there's a standing court order against members of the club using the insignia, there may be reason for arrest.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[DAldredge]

Saying the same thing over and over will not change the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[TheSHAD0W]

And what if you made/purchased that shirt/jacket *before* the Feds stole the trademark? Are you supposed to have to provide proof of purchase?

Re:Not how trademarks work

[Mr. Slippery]

Except for the simple fact that the mongols are a racketteering group. So, if you affiliate with them, you are, in fact, affiliating yourself with people KNOWN for illegal acts.

If you affiliate yourself with the FBI, you are, in fact, affiliating yourself with people KNOWN for illegal acts.

If you affiliate yourself with Microsoft, Exxon, ADM..., you are, in fact, affiliating yourself with people KNOWN for illegal acts.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[budgenator]

Not really biker's are very protective of their colors and the feds quite literally stole their colors; the humiliation factor is extreme.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[viridari]

So in trying desperately to distance itself from the Nazi legacy, the German government has effectively become a bunch of Nazis again.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[gnick]

Only one way to find out.

1) Make a passable replica of a major motorcycle gang's insignia.
2) Attach it to a motorcycle jacket and display it proudly in areas where the gang is known to operate.
3) Learn first-hand whether the **AA or underground motorcycle gangs are more aggressive in IP protection.
4) ???
5) Profit. (For your life-insurance beneficiaries.)

Re:Not how trademarks work

[Anachragnome]

So that t-shirt I have with a pot leaf on it is next, right?

Why stop with the Mongols?

Re:Not how trademarks work

[Chrisq]

I think if the trademark belonged to a criminal biker gang (charged with murder and robbery to extortion, money laundering, gun trafficking and drug dealing) you would not have to worry about whether they would sue you in the civil or criminal courts.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[stephanruby]

Yes, but if the Feds take this too far, it could backfire on them. For instance, when the prisons took away the belts of inmates, and made them wear pants far too big for them, that eventually became a fashion statement. The same could happen for the Mongols, they could take this every which way, stop wearing jackets with their name on it, call themselves "nameless", use some other designation that's simpler than a full name, introduce themselves as the motorcycle gang that's "formerly known as" Mongols, etc. The government can sure try to legislate fashion, but I seriously doubt it's going to succeed (I only hope they're trying to put a crimp on their t-shirt sales, and that's all).

Re:Not how trademarks work

[Manuel M]

According to TFA, it's not about trademark infringement (as in, we seize your trademark, now it's ours and we can sue you if you continue to use it).

Instead, they are seeking to outlaw use of that trademark and logo, just like some signs associated with violence or xenophobia are banned in other parts of the world (like Nazi symbols are in Germany).

Re:Not how trademarks work

[DancesWithBlowTorch]

So in trying desperately to distance itself from the Nazi legacy, the German government has effectively become a bunch of Nazis again.

There is broad support for these measures in the German public. It's not like "the government" had imposed an evil ban on those cute little Swastikas. Rather, it is commonly accepted that we need to limit free speech a tiny little bit to weed out the rot from a society that almost caused Europe to collapse barely 70 years ago.

In turn, these symbols have become so socially inacceptable that you can be sure anyone sporting them deserves a night in a cell, at the very least, in any case.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[khallow]

Why? They don't have lawyers?

Re:Not how trademarks work

[theaveng]

"Tyranny of the majority" is still tyranny and still damages the individual right to free speech or freedom of worship. What about Indians or Hindus living in Germany? They use the swastika as a symbol of their religion, representing both good luck and God's providence. Are they forbidden from the free exercise of their religion? If so then basic rights have been violated.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[Lars T.]

Regardless, it would be a civil violation, not a criminal one. The owner would have to pursue civil measures to get them to stop wearing it; the police can't enforce trademark usage without a court order to that effect, since no crime is being committed until the person using the trademark violates a court order. Of course, they may have committed a tort and be liable, but that still doesn't mean the police can take their stuff until a court specifically says so.

And what does TFA say? The indictment seeks a court order ....

BTW, a customs official can seize goods violating Trademark without any court order - at least when they are imported.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[Amouth]

that's what i'm thinking - if this even did allow it - a cop to stop a biker and take his colors right there.. i know one thing.. if i was a cop i wouldn't do it - no way in hell would i do that - that is just asking to get shot or stabbed or hunted down and killed after the fact.

no cop in their right mind will do that (sure there are alot that think they are superman but again they are alittle crazy)

i just see this as not ending well

Re:Not how trademarks work

[Anonymous Coward]

Why hide behind Hinduism? Neo-Nazis have just as much right to bear a swastika. Free speech for some but not others isn't free speech.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[viridari]

I think that the right to free speech trumps the notion that people don't like to be insulted. It's not a good feeling to feel insulted, but it's not a fundamental human right to not be insulted.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[MikeBabcock]

Humiliating bikers is not something I would do with my spare time, personally. But best of luck to the officers involved -- I hope their covers were well-established.

Re:Not how trademarks work

[ewhenn]

I mean...a men's only club doesn't mean they hate women, they just aren't welcome in the club. A private club should be able to decide on what they want in their membership, no?

True, however when they start taking PUBLIC funds they are no longer a PRIVATE group. When the Boy Scouts accept TAXPAYERS sponosorship for their jamborees by recieving free access to military bases as meeting grounds, then they cease to be a soley private club. It really is simple, if they want to discriminate with their memborship, fine, as long as they NEVER take ANY public money in ANY form whatsoever. If they cost the taxpayer 1 measly cent, then they should be REQUIRED to open up their membership to ANYONE who wants to be in.

If government agents can lie and beat a polygraph

[NevarMore]

If police informants can pass and beat a polygraph in a situation where they would be killed on the spot*, then how can the same test when used against people charged with a crime is still admissible as evidence?

*if the common perception of the 1%-ers is to be belived

Nimrods

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

The indictment seeks a court order outlawing further use of the name, which would allow any police officer 'who sees a Mongol wearing this patch... to stop that gang member and literally take the jacket right off his back'..."

Some douche licker apparently never heard of the right of first sale.

easy fix

[heptapod]

Get tattoos of their logo/insignia. Get it someplace prominent and call out the cops to try and take it from them. I doubt law enforcement is going to start a collection of biker lampshades.

The First Amendment called, it wants itself back

[longacre]

So we would still be able to wear swastikas, KKK logos, Iran Revolutionary Guard insignias and NWA "Fuck the Police" t-shirts, but a patch from some gang most of the world never heard of would be a crime?

I suspect it isn't that easy to seize the name

[Anonymous Coward]

The Mongolian embassy might have something to say about it :-)

Re:If government agents can lie and beat a polygra

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, polygraphs are inadmissable in the US court system.

Intellectual Property?

[GrahamCox]

I find it hard to imagine a single intellectual amongst them.

Re:Intellectual Property?

[heptapod]

Who? The government? The bikers? BOTH!??!!?

Re:Intellectual Property?

[AlexBirch]

That's just fine, intellectual property is seldom intellectual nor property.

How RICO works (was Re:Not how trademarks work)

[DragonWriter]

I'm not aware of any law that can prevent a particular logo from appearing on a jacket.

It seems only tangentially related to trademark law; the reference in TFA to a racketeering indictment makes it seem pretty likely that they are looking for, an order under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization (RICO) Act, specifically, 18 USC Sect. 1963(a), declaring that the trademarked logo, and the tangible items created using the trademarked logo, are "property constituting, or derived from, any proceeds which the person obtained, directly or indirectly, from racketeering activity [...] in violation of section 1962 [of Title 18]", and therefore subject to forfeiture under RICO.

Re:Bullshit

[grahamd0]

Not that it's going to amount to anything - they will still use their name, and they'll likely call themselves "The Original Mongols..." or some such nonesense...

I doubt they'd even go that far to bow the will the courts. They'll probably just keep calling themselves the plain old Mongols, and if someone disagrees or misappropriates the name, they'll probably call themselves the guys who stabbed him to death.

What would really ruin them is for someone to use their logo and release a Mongols brand sugary breakfast cereal with pink, marshmallow motorcycles.

Re:If government agents can lie and beat a polygra

[ushering05401]

"So you'd have to be asked the same set of questions by a panel of say 5 separate polygraph "professionals" (who can not interact with each other)? Then go with the majority decision."

Last time I checked guilt had to be determined unanimously. Follow this link to witness the power of the juggernaut that is the U.S. legal system:

http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2008/10/21/2008-10-21_judge_declares_a_mistrial_in_britney_spe.html

Regards.

Let's examine the strategy

[FilterMapReduce]

Well, let's hypothetically accept the premise that the police and feds will be able to seize the trademark from the group as though it were originally their own. Then they could at least seek legal action against anyone who produces new jackets with the logo, on the grounds that it would infringe the police's newfound exclusive rights to use the mark to promote their own goods and services. (That's why they wanted the trademark, right? I mean, what else is a trademark good for?)

So this strategy could work, so long as the police pick up the Mongols' trademarked product line and start handing out their own Mongol-branded beatings, robberies, extortion schemes, and contraband sales. (Cue a flood of cynical responses saying that the police would merely have to rebrand their existing product line.) At the very least, they could pay lip service to IP law by selling a few Mongol coffee mugs on CafePress—maybe they could donate the proceeds to those police charities instead of bothering me with telephone solicitations.

Re:Let's examine the strategy

[NormalVisual]

(Cue a flood of cynical responses saying that the police would merely have to rebrand their existing product line.)

[cynicism] The police would merely have to rebrand their existing product line. [/cynicism]

Civil forfeiture has never been fair...

[gillbates]

In the US, but this is beyond the pale. There are already laws like RICO which can be used to shut down corrupt organizations.

If this is allowed to set precedent, the Feds will literally be allowed to steal a company's trademark if anyone employed by the company does something illegal. I'm reminded of the Steve Jackson Games fiasco where the Feds seized their computers because one of their employees illegally downloaded a document from AT & T that same was selling for $17. (IIRC)

I seriously doubt that seizing a gang's name is going to deter them the least. At worst, they'll just change their name. This is more about expanding the power of the Federal government than it is about law enforcement. With civil forfeiture laws extending to copyright violations, soon the day will come when police departments will shore up their budgets by seizing computers under the guise of copyright enforcement ("Can you prove that copy of Windows wasn't pirated? I didn't think so...")

Re:Civil forfeiture has never been fair...

[st0rmshad0w]

Actually the Steve Jackson thing had nothing to do with Operation Sun Devil. SJG was raided because one of their games under development was thought by the feds to be "a handbook for cybercrime". It took them YEARS to get their gear back.

You mean, like Charles Petzold?

[mangu]

Imagine a lowlife tatooing some valuable intellectual property on his arm

There's no need to imagine that

Re:If government agents can lie and beat a polygra

[xs650]

"If police informants can pass and beat a polygraph in a situation where they would be killed on the spot*, then how can the same test when used against people charged with a crime is still admissible as evidence?"

That's because government liars are professionals.

The Crucible

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Proctor:
"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life!
Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the
dust on the feet of them that hang! How may I live without my name?
I have given you my soul; leave me my name!"

American justice has never been renowned for its mercy. Or its justice for that matter.

See, there's no slippery slope

[carlzum]

For all of you alarmists that claimed IP regulation would be misused by the government and reach beyond trade and artistic works were totally off base. It hasn't led to rampant surveillance, corporate intimidation of citizens and small businesses, or the police indiscriminately stopping motorists and tearing the clothes off their backs. Oh crap, it has? Is it too late to change our minds?

Re:Awww, man! There goes the club!

[Guy Harris]

I'm just amazed that a criminal organization would file a legal TRADEMARK.

Seriously. Were they going to SUE someone for infringement?

Live to sue, sue to live.

Law enforcement at its silliest?

[syousef]

Agent Bob: They've committed murder and robbery to extortion, money laundering, gun trafficking and drug dealing. What are we going to do?
Agent Dan: I have just the thing that will hurt them. Let's seize their name!
Agent Bob: That's brilliant! They're thugs. We all know thugs are thick. Coming up with a new name will be hard on them. They'll spend so much time coming up with a name their crime spree will be over!
Agent Dan: That's why they pay me the big bucks. Lets go get some donuts.
Agent Bob: Don't you think donuts are a little cliche?
Agent Dan: We're not regular cops Bob. Besides we can always change their name to dough-rings.
Agent Bob: That'll confuse people...Renaming things. Brilliant. I'm in awe of your wisdom. You truly are a law enforcement agent of the times.

You seem to have hit the nail on the head

[Sycraft-fu]

The one most other posters seem to be missing. This is a RICO case. Well, part of RICO is the ability to seize assets related to the criminal enterprise. So for example if a company was a front for money laundering, that company could be seized. Doesn't matter that it was the semi-legit front, since it was a part of the criminal enterprise, it is subject to seizure.

So this isn't an IP issue, that's really a small part. It would be the same thing if they brought down a company under RICO, they'd take the company's name and such. IT all falls under the idea of "You can't profit from your crime."

Re:You seem to have hit the nail on the head

[QuantumG]

No fucking shit. We know it's a RICO case.. it's right there in the freakin' summary. What I called bullshit on was the claim that by seizing the gang's trademark they would somehow be able to prevent the gang members from wearing jackets with the logo on it. Trademark law doesn't work like that. You can use a trademark to stop trade using a registered mark.. not to stop people from wearing a jacket.

Re:You seem to have hit the nail on the head

[interstellar_donkey]

Does this mean the trademark will be auctioned off to the public like many other Federally seized assets?

If so, my knitting club is looking for a new logo. Calling ourselves the Mongols would be neat too.

Re:You seem to have hit the nail on the head

[Nixoloco]

It's really a bit frightening that so many people think the government can dictate what they are allowed to wear.

I guess they have more in common with those countries in the middle east where them terrorists live than they realize.

Re:You seem to have hit the nail on the head

[that this is not und]

It will probably be sold to RockStar so they can incorporate it into a new GTA game.

Re:Right......

[Martin Blank]

Growing up with bikers (I'm most certainly not, by my dad is), I can say that even the roughest bikers generally would accede to the cops. They'd rather beat the rap on technicalities than have the cops file resisting arrest or failure to stop. The Mongols will fight other gangs, but trying to get into a war with the cops is a losing proposition. In the current case, I'm sure they've already sent out a signal to those still on the streets to hide their affiliations for the moment, and let the legal process go through to determine what happens with the logo. They're criminal, but they're also pragmatic and not stupid.

Waste of your taxes

[sleeponthemic]

If I'm a criminal operating under a gang insignia and you take it away from me. I will not curtail my nefarious activities - I'll change the name of my criminal group and move on with my life. You've spend thousands - I'm out a patch for my leather jacket and a trademark application.

Re:Biker Sissies.....

[NormalVisual]

Staying together in a group is simply advantageous tactically, and doesn't say anything about the strength or weakness of its members. Let us know how it works out the next time you go up to a lone Mara Salvatrucha member and call him a pussy.

Lets get real..stop them for a jacket?

[nsaspook]

I lived on the same block as the mogols Alhambra club in the 1970's. The cops wouldn't stop these guys from carrying a sawn-off shotgun down the middle of the sidewalk. In fact the cops would speed up and leave as fast as possible when ever they saw these guys. As long no one touched their bikes or women all was good.

This is a VERY good idea

[erroneus]

This is the first time I have heard of stripping an entity of its intellectual property rights unless it was an undeserved or inappropriate patent or trademark.

This would be a great precedent. And the next time Microsoft is charged with something, part of the punishment would be losing "Windows" or maybe even the copyright on Office 2003 or something.

Re:If government agents can lie and beat a polygra

[pete-classic]

if the common perception of the 1%-ers is to be belived

I'm reading that with a tone of skepticism. If that's not what you intended then this is only intended for those who misinterpret you the same way I did.

The name itself is a claim to be the thing that they are commonly perceived to be. The one-percent of "outlaws" that gives the other 99% of MC members a bad name.

This perception isn't unfair.

They deserve their rights, and I don't know enough about this decision to comment on it, but these are bad people who aren't victims of bad press. I mean, these are people who are committed to being bad. They don't wake up the next day with regrets; they wake up in the morning (or whatever) with intent to do wrong. Or, at least, that's what they'd have us believe.

Now, when you lump the other 99% in with the one percenters that is an unfair perception.

-Peter

Re:Ummm... Yes. Really.... If Disney Can So Can Co

[Fred Ferrigno]

1. That's a business, not an individual.
2. It was a permanent public installation, not an item of clothing on a private person.
3. The pictures probably stayed up for weeks while the matter was being resolved. I know of nothing that would have required them to take it down immediately upon Eisener's request.
4. They technically *chose* to take it down to get Disney to drop the suit. They could have taken them to court to drag out the process for months.

If a cop saw a biker wearing the logo, he couldn't do anything there on the spot. He couldn't even issue a citation, because it's not a criminal issue.

Re:Right......

[m.ducharme]

And generally can afford to hire very good lawyers.

This Is Why I Love /.

[FurtiveGlancer]

You post an article regarding police seizure of the intellectual property of a notorious biker club. That alone is unique and praisworthy. Then the legal minds of the /. contiuum "educate" us all on trademark and IP law, albeit with the factual confidence level of an exceedingly obscure wikipedia article. Why work, when I have such exotic entertainment available? Ah, yes; the deadline.

Let me get this straight.

[twitter]

Someone murdered someone, now I can't draw a picture? You expect actual murderers to be afraid of drawing a picture because you have made a bold statement against "dilution"? Do you think police work will be easier if gangs don't self identify? Will you feel safer with the police distracted by symbols instead of watching out for real crimes?

Land of the free, home of the brave ring a bell? We imposed conditions like this on defeated Nazi Germany but allowed ourselves the pleasure of model airplanes, games, trophy/memorabilia sales and silly costumes and genuine neo-nazi rallies. Don't be a pussy, it's self defeating. Police harassment will not bring you greater safety.

Re:Let me get this straight.

[turgid]

Will you feel safer with the police distracted by symbols instead of watching out for real crimes? ... Land of the free, home of the brave ring a bell?

The very place where people get scared and offended if a crucifix is depicted upside-down or if they see a five-pointed star.

Others get violent if someone draws a picture of Mohamed. Some go mad if someone writes the word "god."

People are superstitious here in Blighty too. I'm more intimidated by the swastika since that has basis in historical fact. In other cultures it's just a good luck symbol.

Agents posed as gang members girlfriends?

[transporter_ii]

And thus the phrase was born, "Damn that is one ugly biker chick."

Transporter_ii

what's the point?

[ffflala]

Not only will the injunction outlawing the logo will fail spectacularly on 1st amendment grounds, but the very concept of outlawing a gang's insignia will just give the Mongols additional street cred, as they are now more-badass-than-thou.

"Our gang is so bad, our insignia is illegal. The very mention of our name will get you arrested. Think about us and you're committing a crime, brother!" Etc.

It just gives the gang additional appeal to the probable suckers who'd join a criminal biker gang in the first place.

Re:Bullshit

[liquidsin]

or a uwe boll movie...

Re:Ummm... Yes. Really.... If Disney Can So Can Co

[gnick]

Deep breath. Repeat after me.

I admit that I have become powerless over my frustration with those that disagree with me, my anger issues, and my self-perceived impotence regarding my ability to communicate my opinion to the "unenlightened". I acknowledge that calling people retards and swearing will not sway them to my opinion, even if I defend it well. I will not feed the trolls.

FSM, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Hope that helps. Wow.

Fashion Police

[gibbled]

Wouldn't this make all law enforcement officers become official Fashion Police?

Godwin aside...

[Nefarious Wheel]

Land of the free, home of the brave ring a bell? We imposed conditions like this on defeated

Dear gods, I find myself agreeing with Twitter. Historic moment.

Somebody hand me a fork...

Re:If government agents can lie and beat a polygra

[Anonymous Coward]

If police informants can pass and beat a polygraph in a situation where they would be killed on the spot*, then how can the same test when used against people charged with a crime is still admissible as evidence?

*if the common perception of the 1%-ers is to be belived

The ironic thing is that the government gives polygraphs to employees to get certain clearances, even after government agents have successfully defeated polygraphs in situations where their lives depended on it.

How can you even think, let alone write that?

[RichiH]

Sorry for going ad hominem on you, but the mis-use of the term 'Nazi' for 'grammar nazi' etc is bad enough.

But to imply that by creating legal countermeasures to the glorification and/or denying of the Nazi homocide, crimes, regime and lore, the German government has become the thing they are trying to prevent is so utterly and totally ignorant, stupid, demeaning, wrong and a hundred other bad and worse things it makes me wonder why you are able to remember to breathe.
You are trivializing the Third Reich and its crimes in a way I have only seen from people who are actual neo-Nazis.

The same goes, to quite some extent, to whoever modded you Insightful.

I would appreciate a reply from both you & whoever modded you in a positive way (which would eleminate some mod points in the process).

Re:How can you even think, let alone write that?

[viridari]

Well maybe I'm being American-centric, but I would like to believe that the rights that I enjoy are human rights and not American rights.

Here in the US, we often cite fringe groups like the neo nazis and Ku Klux Klan as the prime example of our right to free speech in action. You don't have to like what they have to say, but many of us would defend to their death the right to say it.

The will of the majority to oppress the minority is mob rule, and a particularly onerous form of tyranny.

Re:How can you even think, let alone write that?

[RichiH]

q.e.d.

Re:The First Amendment called, it wants itself bac

[dexomn]

I suppose the swastika would be public domain by now. ;)

If true, following fact is amazing..

[tkjtkj]

Anyone who is old enough to have followed news reports about lifestyles within some 'rogue, biker gangs' will understand how outrageous is this excerpt from the article: "The arrests cap a three-year undercover investigation in which US agents posed as gang members and their girlfriends to infiltrate the group,.." Females inducted into certain such groups are expected to provide sexual favors to others. The initiation rituals published in publicly-available reports describe the sexual demands made of females in the group. To imagine that female law enforcement agents would involve themselves with such behaviours as part of investigative work is, frankly, horrendous. Even police 'anti-hooker' details do not go so far as that! .. and with good reason. If the article is true, what has happened to our sense of 'right and wrong' if this behaviour of female investigators is condoned??

Big Deal

[Jaysyn]

Change the logo unofficially to Mickey Mouse & let them have fun enforcing that.

Links to the rescue! (SJG)

[Crash Culligan]

Various documents, explanations, and analyses may still be found on SJG's site, according to Google. I also just verified these couple of links myself.

• Top Ten Media Errors, for instance. Pardon the formatting, it hasn't really been updated since 1994,
• Lawrence Tribe's "The Constitution in Cyberspace" from about the same period, and
• "Crime and Puzzlement". Included partly because it seems to be a worm's-eye account of the poopystorm that transpired, but also because I hate using the unordered-list tag on a list with less than three items.

Unfortunately, I'll admit it's straying a bit far off the topic of federal IP seizures, except perhaps to show that under the right circumstances, there's nothing an adequately jumpy government won't lay claim to.

You guys dont get it.

[Chicken04GTO]

I know you are all sheltered nerds and everything, but this isn't about IP, or any such silly thing. For a biker, his gang patch/colors is damn near sacrosanct. The cops know this, and by being able to just take it anytime they want, its a form of humiliation. It like taking a persons of faiths cross/hijab/torah whatever just because.

When I was younger and worked in fire/rescue, we were actually trained to NEVER take a bikers jacket off in an emergency without permission from the biker or if he was unconscious his friends. Yes, they were that rabid about it. This is about humiliation, and the cops rubbing salt in the wound, to let them know whose boss. For guys who value independence and strength, its a big deal. HUMILATION, not IP or law enforcement. I for one find this very disturbing. Since when is it the polices job to humiliate and degrade people because of their affiliations? Oh wait.

Re:Ummm... Yes. Really.... If Disney Can So Can Co

[theshowmecanuck]

Did your wife beat you up last night?