Fun Things To Do With a Math Or Science Degree?

bxwatso writes "My niece just took the ACT and got a perfect score on the math section. 25 years ago, when I took the test, the kids who aced the math section were pretty special. Her score, combined with straight A's so far in high school, suggest to me that she might be able to go to a top university (MIT?) based on her math aptitude. The rub is that she doesn't like math or science, even though she finds them easy. She doesn't want to be an engineer or scientist. I thought the folks here would be a great group to ask: What are some creative, not too nerdy professions that nonetheless require a talent for math, engineering, or science?"

Comments

Econ

[Rhys]

Graduate level economics is almost indistinguishable from graduate level math (or physics), but avoids some of that "hard sciences" feel.

Re:Econ

[guacamole]

Graduate level economics is almost indistinguishable from graduate level math (or physics)

This is not true (and fortunately, thank god, functional analysis while applicable in theory, has little to say about relevant real world economics). People who say econ is no different from math, obviously haven't taken a serious pure math course. Graduate economics is somewhat technical and quantitative but is not rigorous or formal enough to be confused with a branch of mathematics (unless you take an advanced theory course, which is not representative of the field as a whole). At the same time, there is not enough dynamical systems in it to be confused with physics (I took a bunch of econ courses, and didn't have to solve one differential equation). But yes, econ a very quantitative, and so math,stat, or physics majors could feel at very comfortable in an econ program.

Re:Econ

[Anonymous Coward]

She Is NOT CHALLENGED! people that say they don't care for something but have the aptitude to do it, may not feel
challenged, or don't relate it to what interests them.

personal opinion, Econ though a good field, is a waste with talent like that.

However, don't push her into science she will only run away faster, I didn't like science until I found a field that was fun for me, that was/IS Astronomy, the time, 5th grade I went to the local science museum, the reason I switched from what I wanted to do before this, was that it became relevant to what I already loved.

man, its her choice.

It won't always be as easy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mastering the advanced concepts in Math and science is a lot more involved then High School. So if there is no interest, brilliance now could translate into mediocrity.

Re:It won't always be as easy.

[mysidia]

On the other hand.. the lack of interest could also be a partial result of the High School level math being dull and uninteresting.

A student may be lead to believe that all math is just as dull, simple, and tedious, as their immediate experience. And thus prejudice their view of the field as a whole...

Re:It won't always be as easy.

[thrawn_aj]

Mastering the advanced concepts in Math and science is a lot more involved then High School. So if there is no interest, brilliance now could translate into mediocrity.

THIS.

It's about your reference frame. High school math and science are piss-poor indicators of both difficulty and coolness. The tragedy is never that an originally interested student loses interest or gets bored due to college math/science. It is that the stuff gets exponentially more interesting (as you start doing REAL math that can serve as a REAL tool to understand the universe around you) while at the same time getting progressively more involved.

I won't say that it gets more difficult (it does get involved - as in lots of diverse concepts to integrate) on an absolute scale because it doesn't. Math is one of the VERY few fields that get easier with time IF (and only if :P) you build a strong foundation to begin with. Contrary to most fields, math truly requires you to have mastered everything and remember almost everything (rather - integrate it into your thinking until it becomes second nature) from semester to semester. My fellow students who refused to believe this are precisely the ones who faltered later.

That's one of the hard parts about taking math/science classes though. People are used to the idea (from the humanities perhaps) that information content in classes is sparse (low signal to noise) so that remembering the key points is sufficient. Quite so. TO put it simply, the humanities are noted for their verbosity (not a bad thing - in fact, sometimes it's the only redeeming feature in some otherwise redundant fields :P) while the sciences are noted for being too laconic. Perhaps we should sprinkle some 'noise' into the curriculum (Mythbusters anyone?). Unfortunately, some students tend to tune to the 'noise' in that case and miss the signal entirely :P.

But the history of math and science has been the history of consolidation (both of concepts and notation) until the information is packed VERY densely into the core curriculum. The problem with very high signal to noise in the transmitter is that you need a nearly lossless receiver or you lose a LOT of information. That is precisely what happens in math and science classes.

Remember: if a picture is worth a thousand words, an equation is worth at least a trillion :P.

But, I'm rambling. My point (to echo the parent) is simply that the high school curriculum is a ridiculous indicator of what to expect in college/grad school. Talk to some students/profs at a good university. Look at some course sites (MIT's open course ware is a god example).

The bottom line is that the "nerdiness" of a profession is a meaningless concept. People are nerdy, not professions. If you can't establish your own personality in what you do, you are merely a slave to social trends (or worse, a geek who gets his credo by following WIRED advice :P).

So...

[msuarezalvarez]

You could explain to her that neither math nor science in general is a `nerdy' profession, that she will outgrow her adolescence and that she will very soon hardly remember the names of her high school classmates. That there are peers out there to be had that are considerably more valuable than those who might have instilled in her that fear of nerdiness. That, in fact, she should do whatever it is she may want to do.

Re:So...

[mkcmkc]

Pretty good advice. Although I'd had a strong interest in computers from at least the age of 10 (and math since 5), reading those career counseling guides with pictures of nerdy-looking programmers in horn-rimmed glasses made me fear what my life would be like if I followed that path. So, instead, I wandered around in the wilderness for a few years, trying this and that and discovering what I wasn't good at. Finally, I returned to computers and it was quite a revelation.

I've no idea what'd be good in your case. Maybe just encourage her to keep an open mind and explore the possibilities.

Science isn't always that nerdy...

[damn_registrars]

not too nerdy professions that nonetheless require a talent for math, engineering, or science

There are some areas of scientific research that really aren't all that terribly nerdy. What are her hobbies? If there is something that she does for fun, she may be able to find a scientist that works on making it better...

Not all components of scientific research happen in traditional lab environments.

Ask her what she likes to do.

[mswope]

You mentioned what she's good at. Try to find out what she likes and see if there's a match there. Sure, she's got the potential, but if she's not happy doing it - even if she follows it through, she's doing it for the wrong reasons. She'll probably not be happy doing it.

Re:funs things to do with the degree

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell her to go into law or politics. It would be nice if a few more people in those areas had that sort of analytical ability.

Women is science and games industry

[LingNoi]

The rub is that she doesn't like math or science, even though she finds them easy. She doesn't want to be an engineer or scientist.

As do most women in programming and the games industry which is why I find it ridiculous to pander to all this women in the games industry bullshit.

Let her do what she wants.

Re:Women is science and games industry

[metlin]

Let her do what she wants.

Indeed. If she wants to not use her math skills, that is entirely up to her. Why do you want to push her? One of my best friends took part in math olympiads and won - these days, she does fashion designing, and is quite happy doing that.

That's entirely her choice, and why not?

Re:Women is science and games industry

[LingNoi]

Anybody capable of doing science(esp at a high level), and enjoying this incredible meaningfulness and understanding (read:enlightenment) that comes as a result.. those people should be at least encouraged to pursue it.

But she quite obviously doesn't want to do that. Don't get me wrong, anything we can do to encourage more people, women or men to enjoy science, programming, physics, etc is great.

However I don't see any value in forcing people into the field if they quite obviously don't want to do it. I'd rather have enthusiastic people working with me, not clock watchers and that goes for both genders.

To answer the question of what she can do instead, all I can think of is uncreative jobs:
- accounting
- share trader
- lawyer
- marketing analyst (very math heavy)

All I can really suggest is maybe show her some cool things people make on hack-a-day and stuff like that and hope she picks up an interest.

However, maybe it's better that she doesn't want to do something creative so people seem to get paid more money. You can always encourage her to have a creative hobby outside of her work.

psychology

[sharp3]

If she enjoys psychology (or at maybe at this point just liked to talk on the phone a lot) she may want to consider that as a possibility. Research psych requires a lot of statistical and analytical skills

Is that the right question?

[Hacksaw]

I think the question to ask is what would bring her the most joy, which might be the thing that challenges her. She should try a little of everything, and find the thing that engages her, makes her feel alive and driven.

I'd suggest looking into Howard Gardeners Multiple Intelligences writing to get an idea of the scope of the situation.

Re:Is that the right question?

[theLOUDroom]

I think the question to ask is what would bring her the most joy

Now that's just unrealistic nonsense.
People need to find a appropriate mix of a career that they can both enjoy, AND one that will also allow them to support themselves, pay back their student loans, and build a future for themselves. It's part of being an adult.

Simply put: You gotta eat. How many people do you think find their maximum joy as tax accountants?
I like to snowboard. It's a lot of fun. That doesn't mean I expect to make a living doing it. Yes, there are people who make a living doing it, but for every 1 that does there are 10,000 that don't. If you want to be a professional snowboarder, fine give it a shot. You might want to think up a reasonable backup plan that will keep you from flipping burgers for the rest of your life.

Or as Office Space put it:

Peter Gibbons: Our high school guidance counselor used to ask us what you'd do if you had a million dollars and you didn't have to work. And invariably what you'd say was supposed to be your career. So, if you wanted to fix old cars then you're supposed to be an auto mechanic.
Samir: So what did you say?
Peter Gibbons: I never had an answer. I guess that's why I'm working at Initech.
Michael Bolton: No, you're working at Initech because that question is bullshit to begin with. If everyone listened to her, there'd be no janitors, because no one would clean shit up if they had a million dollars.

Whatever she wants as long as it pays the bills

[davidwr]

Seriously. It's her life. As long as it's legal, ethical, and either it pays the bills, it doesn't matter if she's a garbage collector or a business tycoon. Yes, it may be better for society if she were to somehow use her talents, but if her interests lie elsewhere support her in her chosen path.

Give her your love, your emotional support, and to the extent you can and she needs it, practical/cash support.

Now, if you'd said she's trying to make up her mind between a math/engineering profession and one that doesn't require those skills, then I would strongly recommend steering her in the direction that her talents lie. But from your submission, it sounds like she's made up her mind.

Learning is fundamental

[Tjp($)pjT]

Anything. Math is the basis for biology, music, the arts (even if that math looks like chaos theory) and just about everything except (and maybe not except) philosophy. Actuary... Pay the "dues" for a few years then make big dollars and having been bored to tears the first years, get to figure out interesting problems. Like the likelihood of a death on a space trip to Mars. Useful in telling NASA how much their insurance will cost. Try to avoid being the bean counter set where you have the job of balancing law suit payouts versus thickness and grade of metal in vehicle gas tanks... But the MBA or PHD in economics from say Wharton combined with a bachelors in compsci, hard sciences, engineering, or even physics would put her a world ahead.

Re:Be a teacher

[lysergic.acid]

what does "elementary education" have to do with math or science degrees?

in any case, if the ACTs are anything like the SATs then they're more of an indicator of general academic aptitude (including test-taking skills) rather than a measure of math ability, writing ability, etc. that's not to say that getting a perfect SAT/ACT score isn't impressive, and there's certainly a correlation between good students and good SAT/ACT scores. but they're not an indicator of intelligence--though they might be an indicator of college-preparedness. for instance, i have several friends who scored lower than me on the SATs who i know for a fact are much smarter than i am.

also, in my experience maths and sciences don't become very challenging until you get to about college undergraduate level material. and i don't think the SATs/ACTs really test for scholastic aptitude beyond 9th or 10th grade high school course material. a better indicator of whether a student excels at math/science would be the AP exams, which do cover things like calculus and college-level physics.

it's quite easy to excel in high school algebra & geometry, but the learning curve really shoots up once you get to multi-variable calculus/linear algebra or discrete mathematics. so you really shouldn't push a student into a math/science field that they're not interested in just because they find the high school material very easy. because once you get to college level courses, it quickly becomes a completely different story. and at that point it's vital that the student be interested in what he/she is studying, otherwise they won't have the drive to push ahead and will quickly get burnt out.

that said, the reason a student might not be interest in math/science in high school could be due to their high school math & science curricula not being challenging enough to hold their interest. if she isn't in AP classes then perhaps she should try to take some math/science courses at a local community college. that will help to expose her to what college-level maths & sciences are really like, which she might find more interesting. also, i think it's a bad idea to treat college as a trade school or vocational training. students should be free to take classes that pique their interest and follow academic pursuits that they enjoy. once you've found your niche and finish college, you can then decide where best to apply your acquired skills. otherwise you might as well go to a technical school.

I'm good at math, but don't like it.

[kklein]

I'm pretty good at math, but don't particularly like it. Also, science is cool and I like reading about it, but it has always looked like a pretty dreary profession.

Basically, though, math skills are indicative of structured, logical thought. That is useful everywhere.

Don't push her into something just because she's good at it. Let her do whatever she wants. If she's smart, she'll probably be fine.

Re:Be a teacher

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no math section on the ACT. It is a computation section that they call math. On the GRE it is called quantitative. University mathematics programs end up with many students who think they are good at math until they hit algebra and analysis and wonder what the hell happened. They tend to go on to become math teachers.

  When I was in grad school the best predictor of success in mathematics PhD programs was verbal GRE score, but nobody advises students who score perfect on the English portion of the ACT to think about being a mathematician. I wonder why that is.

She doesn't want to be an engineer or scientist. I thought the folks here would be a great group to ask

You are better off asking her what she wants to do. What is she interested in? If she has no idea then going to a large university where she'll be exposed to a number of different fields and opportunities is not a bad idea.

Whose choice is this?

[The Absurd Chemist]

"What are some creative, not too nerdy professions that nonetheless require a talent for math, engineering, or science?"

You are implicitly assuming here that your niece WANTS to make use of these things in her profession, which is a pretty bad thing to assume. Why don't you ask her what she wants?

I've experienced this constantly in my life. Relatives of all sorts tell me "You should become a doctor" or "You should become a radiologist" or whatever else. I turn around and say back to them, "Hmm, sounds like if you think radiology is so wonderful, maybe you should go back to school and become a radiologist."

It is, IMO, really rude to just start suggesting things to people. ASK what they like and what they want to do. If they don't know, there is no reason they even need to know yet.

Ask your niece what she is interested in and support her in her choice, or if she doesn't know what she wants to do, help her lead a life where it's ok not to know yet. Don't be a dick and try to force/coerce her into math or science just because she is good at it and you want her to do it. Being good at something doesn't automatically dictate that you will enjoy a career in that field.

Re:Don't get too excited.

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

I'd like to say, Aim High, but choose your target wisely. Many people, culture, common sense will all try and tell you what that highest goal should be. For God's sake, choose the goal your self.

um, anything?

[Goldsmith]

Testing well, not wanting to work as an engineer or scientist (good luck landing a good research position if that rumor starts getting around)... if you're lucky you have a future medical doctor on your hands.

My sister was the same way: intuitively good at science, but socially programmed to not like it (is this more common in women?). It looks like she's going to study medicine. After having multiple family members, then friends, then professors tell her that she was good at scientific thinking she gradually veered towards a field she could both enjoy and excel in. I think forcing her to study a hard science would have been a big mistake.

Just tell her that everyone changes their major (more or less true) and to take her time deciding what to do with her life.

How does she know?

[LihTox]

Her school experience with math is probably limited to figuring (arithmetic, algebra, calculus), which is nothing like what real mathematicians do (geometrical proofs are closer-- if geometry was her favorite math class then she is fonder of "real mathematics" than figuring, a good sign). Similarly, a career in the sciences is hard to extrapolate from a typical high school science course. In both cases, she has probably yet to see the creative side of science and math, which is where all the fun is. I'm a bit too tired to think of concrete demonstrations for her, but I might say to her, "Look, you have a talent, and life is smoother if you're working in a field in which you have talent. Of course, if you don't actually like the field then talent won't help, but try it and keep an open mind." You might try arranging a meeting with a research scientist, mathematician, or engineer. (There are also high school level competitions which could be fun, although they do look geeky.)

Of course, if she doesn't like it, she doesn't like it-- but I hear a lot about the subtle pressures which keep the male-female ratios in physics and engineering high, and so I wonder if her reluctance is due to personal taste or peer pressure (or maybe even some teacher one time told her she was bad at math, and it stuck with her regardless of current successes).

Math is a life prereq

[acozer]

A good ACT score doesn't means she is a math genius nor that she needs to find a career that requires good math skills. Math is a prereq for life in general and pretty much all careers today require good logical and analytical skills that depends on strong math knowledge. Having a good ACT math score should be the rule, not the exception. Unfortunately every day we see more and more stupid people out there. Being "normal" makes you "intelligent" and this is starting to become an exception. Look at the average number of books individuals read in the US per year and compare this with 25 years ago. You will be astonished.

Re:Simple

[troll8901]

Or be a comic producer!

Obligatory links:

• XKCD
• FoxTrot GoComics
• FoxTrot Seattle Times

Re:Digital Signal Processing?

[4D6963]

They're only the tools of the trade, and besides, while I understand perfectly what the Fourier transform does, I couldn't in any way explain how it does it nor remember half of the equation. I just do like anyone else and use a fast already-existing and well-established implementation.

Re:Be a teacher

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know exactly how it's in the USA, but in my country (Austria, EU ;) ) high school math is like learning how to drive a car and university level math is like learning how to build a car.

You should be able to drive a car when you build one, but beyond that don't expect it to be the same.

I am currently in med school and I am thinking about quitting and doing math instead. (Med school is 6 years here and not like the pro school concept in the USA. So I don't have a BS degree yet)

And I've seen quite a few people who were great at Highschool math but quit the university within a few weeks, months top. It were the kind of people who didn't know what to do with their life, at that point. They thought, well you can earn lots of money with math so go study it.

My point: Don't push her into anything just because of her Highschool grades.

Re:Be a teacher

[Smauler]

Wow, marketing is put forward as a serious alterative to scientific pursuits, and is +4 informative. I never thought I'd see the day slashdot. News for Nerds, Stuff that matters.

Economics is little more than numerology

[dbIII]

functional analysis while applicable in theory, has little to say about relevant real world economics

Hang on. When did they put away the tea leaves and numerology and start putting together working models of very complex systems like portions of an economy? You'll be telling me there are economists that consider non-linear relationships between things next.

Anecdote: The leading Australian economist's answer to a low wool price was to kill a lot of sheep to make wool scarce. That actually happened. A lot of farmers dutifully killed off most of their flocks, wool was a bit rarer but the price didn't go up because cotton exists. That's some "real world economics" as an example to show how stupidly simplistic their models are and how riduculously overcondent they are about them.

Re:Don't get too excited.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, no, no. I went to MIT, and had a blast. So did my roommate who majored in Music: the alternative and classical music expertise among a group of such intense people gets weird, but can be an amazing wealth of knowledge, and with Harvard and BU and the other Boston colleges, the music scene is a blast for students.

All the Ivy League schools have great opportunities to meet wonderful, brilliant people and learn from them, or teach them. Writing, art, history, nd even archaeogy can use good math skills. The question shouldn't be 'how do we get her to study science', but 'what does she want to do'.

Re:Be a teacher

[Shadow of Eternity]

less knowledge, more memorization.

Re:Be a teacher

[Kachii]

I absolutely agree with this comment. I'm from the UK and I suffered the same fate that you wish to throw upon your daughter - being coerced into a specific degree program at a top London university just because I excelled in that area in my secondary (high) school, without realising myself what a change it would be from the material I had learnt thus far through my life. It certainly didn't do me any favours.

I am trundling along. I appear to have the required intelligence in order to complete my degree (or so I hope!) but damn is that learning curve STEEP.

Other than that, it strikes me odd that you can't come up with some viable and interesting options yourself. Basically, unless your daughter wants to be an elementary school maths teacher, she's probably going to be surrounded by it 24/7 for the rest of her life (researcher, anyone?). If she's not going to enjoy it, please, don't make her do it - and that includes cajoling her into believing it's the only thing she's possibly good at.

Instead of asking what you have here, I suggest you ask your daughter what she'd /like/ to do - see all the other degrees and/or career paths your daughter could take, excel in and enjoy and still lead a successful life at the end of it. It'll be like a voyage of discovery for you! - finding out what professions are good for your daughter, instead of the professions you can push her into despite her distaste for them.

Good luck.

Re:Math required for Econ

[Malekin]

ECON 481 Introduction to Mathematical Statistics (5) NW
Probability, generating functions; the d-method, Jacobians, Bayes theorem; maximum likelihoods, Neyman-Pearson, efficiency, decision theory, regression, correlation, bivariate normal. Prerequisite: STAT/ECON 311; either MATH 136 or MATH 126 with either MATH 308 or MATH 309. Recommended: MATH 324. Offered: jointly with CS&SS/STAT 481; A.

Look at those pre-reqs:

Math 126/136 - 3rd quarter of calculus or honors 3rd quarter of calculus - Introduction to Taylor polynomials and Taylor series, vector geometry in three dimensions,introduction to multivariable differential calculus, double integrals in Cartesian and polar coordinates.
Math 308 - MATH 308 Matrix Algebra with Applications (3) NW
Systems of linear equations, vector spaces, matrices, subspaces, orthogonality, least squares, eigenvalues, eigenvectors, applications. For students in engineering, mathematics, and the sciences.
MATH 309 Linear Analysis (3) NW
First order systems of linear differential equations, Fourier series and partial differential equations, and the phase plane.
MATH 324 Advanced Multivariable Calculus I (3) NW
Topics include double and triple integrals, the chain rule, vector fields, line and surface integrals. Culminates in the theorems of Green and Stokes, along with the Divergence Theorem.

I really don't mean to sound like a snob, but that stuff doesn't strike me as particularly esoteric. I was led to believe that in the US system, the first digit of the unit code typically represents the year it is taken at. Taylors series and multivariable calculus is high school maths. Seriously, the chain rule is introduced at third year? Fourier series is something you should have a handle on in high school physics (fundamental wave behaviour) and have codified in first year. Third year mathematics should be things like advanced cryptanalysis, combinatorics, fluid dynamics, geometry and topology, not introduction to the concept of a matrix or a double integral.

If this is the general standard set by US universities, you're worse off than I thought you were.

Re:funs things to do with the degree

[RobinH]

I don't know where you've been working, but I think middle management is full of engineers who were attracted into management by the "career promotion" but ended up sucking because management is all about the "softer" people skills, not analytical ability. Not that analytical ability doesn't hurt, but you need to be interactive, outgoing, etc..

Basically you could drop out of university half way through without taking any particular program, and still be successful in business if you just find the right combination of resources, need, and luck and put it all together at the right time.

...if she has any clue

[JavaRob]

The tough thing for high schoolers trying to choose a college, major, FUTURE, etc. is that they usually have no *clue* what they'd like to do in the real world, because they haven't had much contact with it.

The vast majority of science and math education for a high schooler is learning how to jump through mental hoops and regurgitate information to pass exams. There's a big gap between studying a subject in school and *using* the skills related to a subject in a job somewhere.

A lot of job satisfaction lies in working with people you respect, who respect you for playing an important role in fulfilling whatever goal the company has. The tasks you perform should also ideally fall into a comfort zone where you're using your talents without being in way over your head.

I tend to think most kids will do best with a broad education with as many internships, etc. as possible, so they can try out different kinds of work environments.

The highschooler in question might end up using math in her job -- if she's good at it, that part will go easily -- and may well be extremely interested if she's interested in the goal she's actually accomplishing. Why would she need to be interested in jumping through hoops?

Re:Be a teacher

[leenks]

I agree - my sister was nearly pressured into an engineering route at college by schooling and sponsorship deals but stuck to her guns and has a postgraduate diploma in music performance on two instruments. She's very happy - she can do the music when the work is available for her instruments, and to fill in of the time can get "technical" positions in sales/marketing for engineering companies.

I'm going to get flamed and/or marked as a troll here, but from my observations the American way doesn't cater well for that kind of thinking. Everything appears to be about excelling and celebration of success, even if that means the child has to do something they don't really like doing - as long as they are very good then the praise and peer respect makes up for it.

Re:Simple

[digitalhermit]

All kidding aside, being proficient in math and science often means that you have a leg up on almost any profession. Certainly there are some fields where it won't help, but the ability to reason and figure out what the numbers are really saying can help anyone from lawyers to doctors to politicians. For the latter, it's sometimes depressing how few understand math and science.

Now I don't know the reasons why the niece doesn't want to pursue a science/math career, but it's likely because the traditionally male dominated careers are from very early on discouraged to females. It's not an overt pressure, just the insinuations from teachers and peers. Girls get oven sets. Boys get chemistry sets.

Why Are Nerds Unpopular?

[arkarumba]

I'm not sure if this applies directly, but your query reminded me of a great article Why are Nerds Unpopular that some here may enjoy.

If you decide it appropriate for your neice to read, it may spark some discussion comparing school maths/science to university maths/science. Find out what she is interested in.

One way ahead is to encourage her to consider only a five year career plan. Neither she nor yourself should feel her choices NOW lock her into a lifetime in one career. People often don't find out what the REALLY want to do with their lives until they've been in the real world for a few years. She should leave her options open. Encourage her to do whatever she feels like doing now, but whatever course, keep some higher level maths as a minor. It may end up giving her the edge someday.

Why be a teacher?

[DoctorTuba]

This seems to me to be rather shortsighted and doesn't really address the question. One of the problems we see in STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) fields is that women who would be good at them tend to eschew them for the obvious nerd reasons. I have a strategy that I use with my students that has had some success. It's certainly not my idea but I have seen it work. What you should help her do is discover uses for STEM that appeal to what research has shown women want in careers - the ability to make a difference at a personal or social level. Sure, teacher qualifies, but so does electrical engineer working on alternative energy technology for developing or areas, or civil engineer working on new construction techniques for building with local materials, or biochemist working on physiological or pharmacological problems in health and disease. You don't have to design chips, or bridges, or bio weapons. And there are probably hundreds, if not thousands, of other career paths like these that she could imagine herself if you support and encourage her. Will it make her time in an undergrad or graduate program any easier? Nope. Still the "boy" culture, still plenty of hard work to do, still many times she'll want to chuck it all. But if she can keep her goal(s) in mind and remember that school is just a short time in the overall scope of her future she can do it. I have examples in my own life of whom I'm very proud so I know it can work.

Re:Be a teacher

[blueZ3]

It's not a weakness of the American system (i.e. it's not inherent in the system itself) it's a weakness in Americans.

Why anyone would do something they don't want for the approval of others is beyond me. If you hate your job, where you spend so much of your waking time, life must be miserable. A good number of us reject the proposition that outside approval is the be-all end-all, though it doesn't seem to be the majority opinion.

On the other hand, a lot of the carping you hear has more to do with people choosing to take jobs for the money and then deciding that the job sucks. Those folks should either stop complaining, or switch to a lower-paying job they enjoy more (hate less)

Better to do something you enjoy and live life with just the necessities than to do something you hate and have more material possessions. Of course, there's a line there, too--maybe it's worth it to do something you hate if you are making a ton of money.

Re:Be a teacher

[russotto]

If you hate your job, where you spend so much of your waking time, life must be miserable. A good number of us reject the proposition that outside approval is the be-all end-all, though it doesn't seem to be the majority opinion.

With respect to the job: It's typically not the outside approval, it's the pay. A lower-paying job which you enjoy more is often not feasible; either you're not qualified (or "overqualified") for the lower-paying jobs, or they're same badness, less pay, or the drop in pay you'd have to take to get the better job is far too great; you wouldn't be able to do the things you enjoy on the lower pay. It'd be nice if there was some continuous scale where you could say, "Oh, I'll take 75% of the pay for a job which sucks 25% less", but there isn't. In general, I think doing something you don't want for the approval of others is pretty much a standard human thing, not an American thing. In fact, as a society America is probably LESS like that than many others -- Japan, for example.