French Record Labels Go After Limewire, SourceForge

An anonymous reader notes that TorrentFreak is reporting: "French record labels have received the green light to sue four US-based companies that develop P2P applications, including the BitTorrent client Vuze, Limewire, and Morpheus. Shareaza is the fourth application, for which the labels are going after the open source development platform SourceForge. ... Putting aside the discussion on the responsibilities of application developers for their users activities, the decision to go after SourceForge for hosting a application that can potentially infringe, is stretching credibility beyond all bounds." SourceForge is Slashdot's corporate parent.

Comments

Juristiction?

[Tubal-Cain]

SPFF had already sued the various companies and organizations last year, but until now it has been unclear whether the US based companies behind the applications could be prosecuted under French law. A French court has now ruled that this is indeed possible, which means that they can proceed to court.

How are non-french companies not operating in France (so far as I know) subject to French law?
Someone should let them know that only America can get away with that.

Re:Juristiction?

[saihung]

That would depend on France's conflict rules, which (unusually, if I remember correctly) are that the courts of France have jurisdiction over any matter harming a French national. You are broadly correct - in the USA or most other countries, the courts would likely NOT have jurisdiction over the case. But France is France. That doesn't mean that the defendant would be able to enforce the judgment though. A US court could examine the question of whether the French courts had jurisdiction over the matter before agreeing to enforce the judgment, and that probably wouldn't fly.

Re:Juristiction?

[Xenographic]

I just hope there are no French people who have contributed code to Shareza. I wouldn't put it past them to go looking for someone with any sort of connection to the project at all to hold accountable for the entire thing...

Then again, maybe French law is different in that regard, but these crazy litigants all seem to be the same about doing that sort of thing, no matter what country they're suing from.

Re:Juristiction?

[lysergic.acid]

that's because stupid is contagious. it's no big secret that other countries emulate the U.S. culture is our greatest export, and so what happens in the U.S. becomes a precedent for other nations. unfortunately, this also includes our political/legal culture.

the U.S. passed the DMCA in 1998, and soon other countries started getting their own DMCA-analogs. so it shouldn't be surprising the RIAA's legal shenanigans are being copied by their foreign counterparts. that's globalization for you.

Re:Juristiction?

[sumdumass]

You really need to look past your ignorance. The DMCA was required by WIPO treaty and as an extension to part of the berne convention as changed to allow the US to ratify it (which BTW, caused the copyright extensions).

The US didn't create the DMCA out of nothing. It was literally response to a treaty that all of Europe and other countries signed on to before we made the DMCA. The DMCA goes beyond the treaty a little but the meat is the same as the treaty requirements. The other countries creating their own DMCA are doing it for the same reason's the US did and that is because of treaty obligations.

Now you can claim that RIAA influenced the treaty and so on, this might be true, The recording industry was responsable for implementations of other treaties which more or less made Phonographs, tapes and CDs compatible across country borders which I would think most people see as a good thing.

Something else about the WIPO treaties, there are portions of them that basically say if the law in one land doesn't address something in the treaty, then the law of the aggrieved land can prevail. This will give France's court Jurisdiction over an American country just like it gives the US courts jurisdiction (including extradition rights) over other countries when violations occur that aren't violations in the other land. If France can pin the Source Forge action to a treaty, a US court must honor it unless the Supreme court finds something unconstitutional in some way. I suggest you look into the treaties we are obligated to if you actually want to effect any meaningful changes instead of blaming the wrong people. You can charge windmills all you want and probably never see changes in what your railing about because you don't understand the concept behind it.

Re:Juristiction?

[Gorgonzolanoid]

I think you're wrong about one point: AFAIK US courts, according to US law, DO have jurisdiction over foreign nationals for acts committed on foreign ground, as soon as US citizens or companies are affected (as alleged victims).
There was even some dismay in the news media here in Europe when the US adapted a law allowing US Marshals to arrest (read "kidnap") foreign nationals abroad to drag them before US courts. I don't remember what period that was exactly, but it's at least 10 years ago.

Re:Juristiction?

[TubeSteak]

The US didn't create the DMCA out of nothing. It was literally response to a treaty that all of Europe and other countries signed on to before we made the DMCA.

LoL
Yes, the USA created the DMCA out of nothing.

Clinton formed a working group under a guy named Lehman,
BUT, there was resistance in the USA to the anti-circumvention recommendation.
In response, Lehman took a shortcut through WIPO and a bad international treaty obligation was born.

As a result, the USA had to harmonize* the law with their treaty obligation.
The real tragedy is that because the US didn't want to pass the law in the first place,
everyone has to modify their copyright law.

*sometimes this is good and sometimes this is bad. It is rarely good when it is used to shove an unpopular law through your country's backdoor.

Re:Juristiction?

[dbIII]

OK - so you are seriously suggesting Europe is to be blamed for some weird broken US IP laws inspired by Mickey Mouse and submitted by Sonny Bono? It is such a weird situation that people can easily remember such things instead of convenient revisionism a decade or two later.

Nice urban myth you've got there, but it's not going to work on anybody over thirty or anyone of any age that has paid attention to the subject. Your IP laws are your nations own fault and even those countries that accepted them (eg. a watered down version implemented in Australia as part of a condition for a "free trade" agreement) could have chosen not to so they are also responsible for their own IP laws.

Re:Juristiction?

[djmurdoch]

two WIPO treaties that 150 of countries signed on to.

Which treaties are you talking about? The relevant one is the Copyright Treaty, and only 68 countries have ratified it. Another 26 or so have signed it but not ratified it, which means it's not in force in those countries. (Of the G8, only the US and Japan are among the ratifiers.)

The signature on the treaty is used as an excuse by the proponents of it to say that countries have international obligations to put a DMCA-like law in place, but it doesn't mean that at all. The signature is a general sign of support for it, but it implies no legal obligations.

Cool!

[zmollusc]

I hope they go after those evil, piracy-enabling, hard disk manufacturers next.

Re:Cool!

[Arimus]

No, they need to go after the evil people who produce the silcon used in chips, no wait - add the mining companies who mine the metals used, the oil companies for the oils used to make plastics, for producing the stuff in the first place for us to find it and (ab)use it.

Re:Cool!

[MrNaz]

You're not seeing the real force behind the evilness here. They need to sue monkeys for evolving into humans who would then go on to commit copyright infringement. Damn those tree-dwelling purveyors of immorality!

Pricks

[kramulous]

This scares me a little. I mean, we should sue the gun makers because guns kill people. We should sue the ore miners because they produce the steel that is used in the guns.

If the French have such a problem with P2P why don't they just block it at the ISP level? Why go after the FOSS developers who just write a program? Because you can't possibly blame the citizens who breach copyright.

This is coming from a country that were happy to set off nukes in the pacific because they didn't what to bow to international pressure. Pricks.

Re:Pricks

[KDR_11k]

Meh, just specify that all copyrighted works must be flagged with the Evil Bit.

Why stop with SourceForge

[isBandGeek()]

They should sue Google for not censoring results to sites that host P2P applications.

Then they should target ISPs for not blocking access to Google and all the other "infringing" sites.

And while they're at it, sue Slashdot for talking about this.

Re:And Blame Microsoft in...

[retech]

Ok, but just out of boredom. I can easily see Balmer shouting: "développeurs, développeurs, développeurs!"

Re:Good luck ..

[Hansu]

If US won't do as we tell you, we mobilize our mighty war machines and invade your puny little country. Just like we did with.. ehm... just like... umm...

Ahem, never mind.

Re:Overlord?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a conspiracy involving CmdrTaco, CowboyNeal, SourceForge, the French government and the Illuminati. I'd tell you more, but I've probably said too much already.

Posted AC for the obvious reasons.

Re:Overlord?

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Yes. Yes of course... It, it all makes sense now! The single user that has posted the most comments on slashdot: Anonymous Coward!. He's involved in this. No, wait, he is this! This whole "conspiracy" is just one of his mind games to increase ad revenue and developer mind share. No one is really suing Sourceforge, except Sourceforge itself!. Also the french nation is a proxy for Sourceforge. Their crazy laws are just more of his humor. Like troll here on slashdot, but funnier because it actually effects people's lives.

Long story short...

[Anonymous Coward]

The French courts ruled that the French record labels have the legal right to make stupid lawsuits. Duh.

It does not mean that the French court system agrees that SourceForge should be tried, it does not mean that SourceForge will be found guilty, and it does not mean that even if they ARE found guilty that it would actually mean anything. (Good luck trying to enforce a ruling made in France, over a company not there.)

My guess is that the French courts are rolling their eyes over the thought of having to hear these cases out. They basically said "yes yes, technically you're right, we have to hear these cases too, however stupid they may be. "

Re:Good luck ..

[Walpurgiss]

I believe the territory you are looking for is most of Europe.

Of course, that was quite some time ago, only 30 years or so after the US became a separate country.

Stretching credibility? Not in France.

[Gorgonzolanoid]

In France, using encryption has long been illegal. I believe even SSL connections weren't allowed until the law changed in 1999.
So I wouldn't call this "stretching credibility", it's just on par for the course in that country where the government clearly doesn't have a clue about IT.

Worse, they're learning about IT - from the media mafia. For example, a year ago there were voices calling out for a complete internet ban for whoever is caught sharing a file, enforcing ISP's to act as police, attorney, jury and judge. Who came up with that idea? The IFPI. Who fell for it? The government.

Re:Good luck ..

[techno-vampire]

Yes. Thirty years after the US became a separate country with the help of France.

Re:the usa does plenty wrong in this world

[Haeleth]

Perhaps if the US had not spent the last 8 years riding roughshod over human rights a basic legality you might have a point.

So, to repeat your argument:

1. The USA has spent 8 years riding roughshod over human rights
2. ????
3. PROFI^H^H^H^H^H Therefore, the USA is to blame for every aspect of French law

I think you might want to work a little on filling that gap.

Symptoms of a bigger problem

[symbolset]

Copyright was created as a bridge between creators and the market to promote progress. It has mutated into a troll that prevents progress. Copyright is now a monster that must be slain.