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Surgeons Weld Wounds Shut With Surgical Laser

Ruach writes "The promise of medical lasers goes beyond clean incisions and eye surgery: Many believe that lasers should be used not just to create wounds but to mend them too. Abraham Katzir, a physicist at Tel Aviv University, has a system that may just do the trick and is proving successful in its first human trials."

36 of 151 comments (clear)

  1. So Trek's closing-wounds-with-beams thing is real? by Michael_gr · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Now that is a surprise. That always struck me as funny, the way they just beamed at some wound and it closed.

  2. The real news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    As usual, the summary misses the interesting bit. Using lasers to seal wounds is old news - I first read about it in the Readers Digest about a decade ago. What's new here is a mechanism to prevent overheating.

    1. Re:The real news by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 2

      This shit needs to make it to battlefield medics sooner than later.

    2. Re:The real news by Hurricane78 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hmm... conflict is an essential part of evolution. Ending wars is a nice dream... But in reality, it's just nice for the oppressor. Because no wars always means, that something/someone is extremely predominant. Those who think otherwise will normally fight for their way. If they can't, it's because of a horribly strong oppression.

      The illusion, that we can do without conflicts (which sometimes end in wars), comes from the illusion that there is one global truth, when in reality, everything is relative.
      So in reality, you will never have a whole planet with one point of view, or even with 100% compatible views.

      What we must realize, is that, no matter how disgusting and strange the views of others look to us (if you want an example, think of a group, where it is generally accepted to rape everybody you see, and then eat him), as long as they do not hurt anyone (eating someone of that group, who thinks that way too, is not hurting someone), we have no right so tell them what to do.

      One great example could be the USA. There you have the more liberal areas and people. And the (from my pov!) religious fanatics.
      They could both live happy, if they just had their own countries. And why the hell not? They could still work together in areas that they both agree on or need each other for.

      That's why I oppose something like big countries and world governments: Because, if you disagree, there is no place you could go to anymore.
      Before I realized this, I thought, a world government where everything is peaceful, would be an ideal. In theory: Yes. In reality, there is no such thing, as long as there is evolution.

      Oh, and if we must have a world government, then at least I want to be the leader. ;)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    3. Re:The real news by davester666 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Cuz that's what medics want to carry. A large battery pack with a small laser, while humping a guy back to the aid station. Or maybe a gas generator.

      Hell, it could be dual use. As a weapon, it can blind enemy combatants or slice open their skin, but when the enemy gets closer, you bend over a wounded comrade and claim to be a medic, and that it's your laser scalpel/magical healing device.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    4. Re:The real news by moteyalpha · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You are right on that. My sister was doing laser cellular reconstructive surgery ( Transoral Laser Microsurgery ) 12 years ago with a Neodymium Yttrium Arsenic Garnet ( Nd YAG ) 100 watt continuous laser. Here is a link to that laser created in 1964. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nd-YAG_laser. I would have RTFA, but it was slashdotted already. I still think if a shark did it, that would be news.

    5. Re:The real news by fabs64 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      yerch, and here come the isolationist libertarians, trotting out their ideology as if they've realised some perfect universal order that no one else gets.

      First, the word "evolution" is a very bad one to use as a justification, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant something more akin to "progress".

      The illusion, that we can do without conflicts (which sometimes end in wars), comes from the illusion that there is one global truth, when in reality, everything is relative.

      And just under it

      What we must realize, is that, no matter how disgusting and strange the views of others look to us ... we have no right so tell them what to do.

      So "all opinions are relative and there is no universal truth" and that statement is a universal truth that must be acknowledged and accepted.

      Cultural relativity can only extend so far, and a group where it is "accepted to rape everybody you see, and then eat him" is far beyond that if for no other reason than the passive acceptance of such practices is as much a choice and changes your own group in the same way as choosing to combat those practices would.

      Diverse groups may be more prone to argue within themselves, but they are less subject to the extreme conflict that arises between polar opposites in the form of states.

      Give me the snarky '08 election over the neverending conflict faced by Israel, the american civil war over the second world war, the war for independence over the crusades.

    6. Re:The real news by Thiez · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > Hmm... conflict is an essential part of evolution.

      Maybe, but war isn't. Many bacteria and plants and herbivores happily live their lives without ever being at risk of being killed by their own kind. A 'war' against others of your kind is something very few species do (I guess ants can be considered an exception).
      Let's not use 'evolution' as an excuse for war. Even if war was part of evolution, the whole thing that defines us humans is that we can mostly ignore what would happen in nature.

      > The illusion, that we can do without conflicts (which sometimes end in wars), comes from the illusion that there is one global truth, when in reality, everything is relative.

      If we have two countries whose citizens have exactly the same culture and beliefs about the world, when country A wants something from country B and country B won't give that thing to A, there is a conflict. So even with a 'global truth' people will have conflicting interests.
      Personally I believe there is such a thing as a universal truth, and science is creating increasingly acurate theories about this truth. The problem is that many people (myself included) have misconceptions about this truth, and incomplete knowledge, and, most importantly, consider their culture to be part of this truth.

      > What we must realize, is that, no matter how disgusting and strange the views of others look to us (if you want an example, think of a group, where it is generally accepted to rape everybody you see, and then eat him), as long as they do not hurt anyone (eating someone of that group, who thinks that way too, is not hurting someone), we have no right so tell them what to do.

      Fair enough, but in this particular example it might be best to inform these people about 'our' culture so they can make a choice. And what about a culture that abuses a particular group (let's say, women) and believes that anyone who tries to leave their culture must be tortured and killed? Or a culture wherein it is not allowed to learn about other cultures?

      > That's why I oppose something like big countries and world governments: Because, if you disagree, there is no place you could go to anymore.

      I don't see the problem with big countries, if many, many people have the same culture, they should be able to live in one (big) country. I agree a world government would suck, though. Even when it had very little power over its people, governments tend to slowly take more and more power without giving it back.

      > Before I realized this, I thought, a world government where everything is peaceful, would be an ideal. In theory: Yes. In reality, there is no such thing, as long as there is evolution.

      Stop the evolution thing, please. Evolution is never a cause of things, it is the result.

      > Oh, and if we must have a world government, then at least I want to be the leader. ;)

      My vote goes to cowboyneal!

    7. Re:The real news by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The important thing is that we can actually figure out how to deploy this laser technology on the battlefield without the cooperation of those who desire to use violence to satisfy their desires. How do you propose getting those who desire violence to cooperate in ending wars?

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  3. Optimal Temperature by cjfs · · Score: 4, Funny

    First, they had to determine the optimal temperature at which flesh melts but can still heal (about 65 degrees Celsius).

    I don't envy the test subjects.

    1. Re:Optimal Temperature by cp.tar · · Score: 2, Funny

      In Israel?

      --
      Ignore this signature. By order.
  4. Doesn't this invalidate by Splab · · Score: 3, Funny

    sharks with friggin lasers on their heads?

    I mean the poor thing is going to keep biting and not understand why the pray wont die.

  5. Re:Sharks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Cauterizing lasers, for the conscientious shark.

  6. The whole point. by Surreal+Puppet · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The whole point of this new method is that you can cauterize a wound without charring the flesh, instead just melting it. The optimal temperature for this is, apparently, 60-70 deg. C., and this is maintained using feedback from an infrared sensor on the "soldering pen". They apparently also use a water soluble protein as "solder". The scars on in the TFA pictures look real nice. Wonder if the wound will hurt more or less than a conventionally sealed wound?

  7. Re:Incisions aren't similar; nonsense comparison m by myxiplx · · Score: 4, Informative

    No, TFA shows two sample pictures, and TFA didn't do any comparison at all, especially not any based on these particular pictures. The *doctors* compared wounds on ten patients and decided that the laser-bonded scars were healing better, which is what the article reports.

    The point of the pictures isn't so *you* can second guess the doctors (who believe it or not know an awful lot more about this than you do). They are there to give a quick visual impression of what's going on, to complement the real detail contained in the text of the article.

    If you really want to double check the results, go find the original research paper. However I think you'll find it's rather longer and not quite so interesting to read.

  8. The end of natural by tzot · · Score: 5, Funny

    Breasts, I mean. This is going to be heavily used to close incisions of breast augmentation surgery. We shall lose a weapon in our arsenal of 'true-fake' wars.
    We are doomed.

    --
    I speak England very best
    1. Re:The end of natural by Briareos · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's already been lost. I know someone personally who has a boob job, she got them inserted through her navel.

      You have to wonder what they're gonna do next - brain surgery through the sole?

      np: B. Fleischmann - As If (Welcome Tourist (Disc 1))

      --

      "I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole

  9. Re:So Trek's closing-wounds-with-beams thing is re by b4upoo · · Score: 2, Funny

    What kind of rod does one use for that weld?

  10. Re:Another Technological Advance From Israel by HateBreeder · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's actually a common misconception.

    US foreign aid to Israel is limited to commodities purchased back from US companies: Israel cannot spend that money in any other way.

    The money goes back to US companies like Boeing or Lockheed martin when Israel purchases fighter jets.

    You can rest assured, that university research projects in Israel don't see a dime from US tax payer money. (Unless it's some US D.O.D joint effort)

    --
    Sigs are for the weak.
  11. What if... by denzacar · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...they had lasers on the INSIDE beaming out when ever their flesh is pierced? You know, like having lasers in the blood.
    How come Marvel didn't yet come up with such an awesome character?
    Would such a combination make the character some kind of a weird Wolverine-Cyclops hybrid?
    What would Jean Grey think about that?

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  12. Re:Another Technological Advance From Israel by HateBreeder · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The foreign aid to Israel is given out since the US recognizes the strategic importance of Israel in the middle east - it is vital to promote US interests in the area.

    And yes, the game is played both ways. Both US and Israel gain from the foreign aid - i just don't want people to think that the US is spending money in Israel without gaining anything from it. The US is not a philanthropic organization and Joe six pack is definitely not funding the Jews because they tricked him into it.

    --
    Sigs are for the weak.
  13. Re:So Trek's closing-wounds-with-beams thing is re by trburkholder · · Score: 5, Informative

    From TFA:

    "All a surgeon has to do is move the pen's tip along the cut, strengthening and sealing the weld with a solder of water-soluble protein."

    It looks a lot like very controlled cooking and I suspect the protein used to connect the tissue denatures in the process. It's not welding, it's hot-melt glue.

    Still very cool.

  14. 65 Celcius melting point of skin? by ZeroExistenZ · · Score: 3, Interesting

    they had to determine the optimal temperature at which flesh melts but can still heal (about 65 degrees Celsius)

    Firstly, 65C, isn't that the just above the heat of a warm bath, and doesn't a sauna reach up to 110C ? Second, since when does a skin melt?

    Who can give some more indepth information about this?

    --
    I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
    1. Re:65 Celcius melting point of skin? by Zironic · · Score: 2, Informative

      Have you ever burnt yourself on the stove or something? Then you'd know that skin melts.

      65C is way, way, waaaaay above the temperature you'd want in a warm bath and while the air temperature is 110C in a sauna your skin never reaches that temperature, if you stayed in the sauna long enough your skin would melt though(I think you'd die first)

    2. Re:65 Celcius melting point of skin? by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Informative

      Second, since when does a skin melt?

            Skin isn't just the rigid layer of dead cells covered in keratin that you're used to seeing. Lots of interesting things happen under the basement membrane in the "extra-cellular matrix". Cells aren't just glued to each other but rather they produce and surround themselves with different proteins - some for rigidity and others to allow flexibility and elasticity.

            This matrix becomes more fluid at higher temperatures as the proteins unwind and change shape with the heat. The theory is that if you have two pieces of matrix close enough to each other and increase the temperature, some of the proteins from either side of the wound will entangle with the opposite side, and remain entangled when the temperature is lowered again, kind of like velcro on a molecular level. The trick is to provide just enough temperature to get the proteins to entangle with each other, without putting so much temperature that they end up destroyed.

            Anyway surgeons have known about cauterization for a long time. It helps fix all those little mistakes (oops who put that artery there...). There's nothing more fun than watching a bleeder turn into a brown and black bubbling mess of protein goo - but goo that no longer bleeds.

            It would be interesting to know how this "new" technique holds up under different conditions - sepsis, metabolic disorders like diabetes, etc. And of course how much trouble is the patient in if ever there's a dehiscence? At least with sutures, the other sutures are there to keep the wound reasonably closed...

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    3. Re:65 Celcius melting point of skin? by geezer+nerd · · Score: 2, Informative

      65C is 149F, which is too warm for a bath, I think. 110C is 230F, which is cooking temperature. As is pointed out in other postings, sauna exposure is not the same as water immersion, nor direct radiant exposure, but still very hot. I will keep my meltable skin away from both temps.

  15. Misuse of closing-wounds-with-beams thing by troll8901 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "Imagine that sort of device in the hands of your unscrupulous friends. They would sneak up behind you and seal your ass shut as a practical joke. The devices would be sold in novelty stores instead of medical outlets."

    - Why real life will never be like star trek, The Dilbert Future, by Scott Adams

  16. Re:Another Technological Advance From Israel by Chrisje · · Score: 2, Insightful

    First of all, plenty of Christians have killed and will kill a non-believer. It's documented well, and countless times.

    Funnily enough 10% of Jews in Israel *will* also stone your ass if you drive through a particular street on a Shabat, if you happen be Palestinian and live near certain settlers and if you dare to drive/eat/smoke in their vicinity on a Yom Kippur.

    Believe me. I live here. The latter example actually took place in Akko recently. An Arab drove through Akko (which is an Arabic city), ended up on a Jewish street, got stones thrown at his car and subsequently *he* was arrested for it.

    Then there are the boys who immigrate from Russia who get bullied into circumcising themselves at the age of 20 by their peers in the Army. That one's about brainwashing *and* self-mutilation as a consequence of it, and that's still done by the more secular Jews, that's not even the work of your 10% of orthodox fringe idiots.

    Now my boy would be considered Jewish because his mother is an Israeli Jewess, so don't come to me and cry anti-semitism for what I've just pointed out either, please.

    Having said that, I think the Christians should be very, very quiet about the Muslims killing those who are not Muslim because we all know what religion brought on the Spanish Inquisition, which hunts, the 100 year war, the Crusades and many other calamities that were aimed towards non-believers.

    In 1987 George Bush Sr said an atheist can never be considered a citizen and an atheist can never be considered a patriot. Because this is one nation under God. And he got elected president. Twice. And then his son. Twice.

    So please climb off that horse and shut up about the Muslims. Humanists and an atheists can say something about Muslims. Christians and Jews are just part of the same mob, however.

  17. Great way by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    To instantly send the cost of that $7500 surgery to $15,000. After all, SOMEONE has to finance, maintain and insure that $300,000 laser machine because a $2 package of 3-0 nylon monofilament just won't do nowadays. Hey do we still have the machine that goes "bing"?

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    1. Re:Great way by Dunbal · · Score: 3, Informative

      Nothing is anywhere near as cheap as $2.

            It is when I buy it for my clinic. Syringes, 15, I sell them to you for $1.50. Suture, around $1.75 each pack last time I bought, and I sell them to you for $15. That's what happens when I have to pay between $20k and $60k a year (depending on the specialty and how many times I have been sued) in malpractice insurance premiums before covering other, simpler costs like "rent". You can thank the "jackpot justice" players and ambulance chasing lawyers for that.

            Oh, I guess you could buy your own sutures for $1.75 but no, "This item is restricted for sale only to or by order of a physician". Sorry.

            Of course be careful at hospitals, they sometimes rip you off in illegal ways, like charging you for a whole box of medication when all they gave you was one pill. Always check your bill. I do.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  18. Re:So Trek's closing-wounds-with-beams thing is re by Robocoastie · · Score: 2, Interesting

    hmm isn't that a modern way of the old heat a knife over a fire then burn the wound closed with the side of it like on movies?

  19. Re:So Trek's closing-wounds-with-beams thing is re by SpiderClan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I would imagine it's much less painful and leaves less of a scar.

  20. Re:So Trek's closing-wounds-with-beams thing is re by Bearhouse · · Score: 2, Interesting

    hmm isn't that a modern way of the old heat a knife over a fire then burn the wound closed with the side of it like on movies?

    I think the modern version of that would be using superglue. Both effective but fairly brutal & 'last resort'.

  21. Re:Another Technological Advance From Israel by ScrewMaster · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You can hate and love something at the same time, for different reasons.

    Yes, that pretty much defines "marriage", I think.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  22. Re:So Trek's closing-wounds-with-beams thing is re by demonlapin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Actually, superglue is quite effective at closing skin (though large wounds still need to have the deep layers closed). The monomers used are designed not to produce as much heat during curing as the home-use ones, but they're still cyanoacrylate adhesives.

  23. Good thing they mentioned the inventor by synthespian · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Gladly, they mentioned the inventor Abraham Katzir (a physicist at Tel Aviv University).

    All too often, it''s the surgeon who gets all the credit when, in fact, all this wonderful medical technology is created by engineers and whole team - a lot more people than the guys who like to pose as heroes.

    --
    Main difference between the BSD license and the GPL license: one is from California and the other is from Massachusetts