Editor, DLC Coming To Fallout 3

Bethesda has announced that an editor for the Windows version of Fallout 3 will be coming in December. They also said the first additional downloadable content for the Windows and XBox 360 versions will follow in January. MTV's Multiplayer blog got a few more details from Bethesda's Pete Hines, who said additions to Fallout 3 will resemble the Oblivion expansion pack Knights of the Nine in size and scope. MTV then brought up the question of how early publishers should provide DLC, pointing to Fallout 3 and Fable II as examples of games for which the expansions were planned to go live only a few months after launch.

Comments

Yes to one, no to the other.

[Fallingcow]

Yes to a construction set. Thank god.

No to DLC. Since nearly all of it for Oblivion sucked horribly, I don't think anyone familiar with that game will be buying any for Fallout 3. Please just release expansion packs, Bethesda, especially since you have an odd habit of making ones that have better main story lines than the game that they're expanding.

Now if the community can just get some money together to have the narrator do some more lines for a better, more varied, truer-to-the-series ending, we might be on the way to making this decent-but-not-great game worthy of the name it bears.

Re:Yes to one, no to the other.

[KillzoneNET]

*Possible Spoilers*

I believe the ending was done in a way to leave it open for more content. And lo-and-behold there is one. As was mentioned in a MaximumPC article:

Broken Steel. Join the ranks of the Brotherhood of Steel and rid the Capital Wasteland of the Enclave remnants once and for all. Continues the adventure past the main quest. Scheduled for release in March.

Having a game this open ended have a very closed ending is just a clear indicator they want people to pay some cash to have any sort of possible continuation of story, especially those people on a console.

Re:Yes to one, no to the other.

[Fallingcow]

Would have been nice to have some "and this is what happened in such-and-such town due to your actions" scenes, as we've seen in prior installments. I probably wouldn't have done nearly as many side quests if I hadn't expected some of those. I mean, I really thought I'd get one for helping the Crater side Supply chick with her book. Some of those quests were just boring.

Given how much other great stuff they cut (you can't even go through the game in "dumbass" mode; there are just regular options and [intelligence] options, no penalties or humor for low-int characters) it seems like they could have at least managed to do a bit more with the ending. Since 90% of my time was in non-main-quest activities (and, frankly, I didn't give a damn about the main quest past a certain, kind of silly, plot twist) I'd have liked to see some payoff for that.

Typical Bethesda laziness, I guess. Morrowind and Oblivion both felt incomplete in many ways, and were only made (somewhat) whole when the community stepped in. I'm glad they create what they do, and I love the Elder Scrolls world, but I wish they'd take just a bit more time and money to finish their games before they release them. I went in to this expecting something better, since they were building on a graphics engine that was already functional and that they'd played with extensively in Oblivion, but they still managed to screw up several big things.

I'd love to sit in on a few of their meetings at various points in the development process and see whether anyone in the company brings these things up, or they really all think they're releasing a finished, well-crafted product.

Hm... maybe it could be arranged for Valve or Blizzard to buy Bethesda... *goes to work planning and plotting*

Re:Yes to one, no to the other.

[Shadow of Eternity]

If your problem is with releasing incomplete games then valve is the LAST developer you want getting anywhere near bethesda.

You'd wind up with an unholy bastardization of bethesda's inability to release a complete game and valve's inability to get anything done on time.

Re:Yes to one, no to the other.

[KillzoneNET]

Would have been nice to have some "and this is what happened in such-and-such town due to your actions" scenes, as we've seen in prior installments. I probably wouldn't have done nearly as many side quests if I hadn't expected some of those. I mean, I really thought I'd get one for helping the Crater side Supply chick with her book. Some of those quests were just boring.

You're right. I never really believed the number of endings they were touting to having, in all honesty I've only heard about that once. What I was looking forward to was the chance for there to be any sort of different endings, but none of that is in this game.

They promptly half-assed the ending. If you go into the video folder where you installed the game and use Bink and Smacker tools, you'll find out that the ending breaks down to only 3 choices (*spoiler* You do it, someone else does it, you let it explode */spoiler*) and after that, it only shows one, maybe two quests you have completed (depends on how high your karma is I think) and that's it. Its a photo montage ending that doesn't explain or end anything. I seriously have doubts of me playing it again until more mods come out to make it more of a decent game like Oblivion and Morrowind are now with mods.

For me though, I knew Bethesda would end up giving the same effort they've given all their games from Elder Scrolls 1 and on. They make sure it runs (mostly), plays like an rpg they were aiming for, then send it out to market when they deem it big enough. With consoles and DLC, they now have more of a reason to not expand on things that should of been there to begin with. I'm just glad these guys are pretty faithful to the modding community when it comes to the tools and ease of access to their content for people to modify and create anew. It's their saving grace and the real reason I bought the game. Like Morrowind and Oblivion, the game will last me more than a few years on community support alone.

Re:Yes to one, no to the other.

[Narpak]

No to DLC. Since nearly all of it for Oblivion sucked horribly, I don't think anyone familiar with that game will be buying any for Fallout 3.

First of all; if you don't like the DLC then Do Not Buy It. If Bethesda want to release DLC perhaps it sucks, perhaps not, extremely hard to predict I would say. Personally I didn't like Oblivion at all, so based on that personal opinion I would perhaps be predisposed to not buying Fallout 3; however I did; and enjoying it immensely (even after playing through it once). I expect there will be some reviews of the DLC when it arrives so you can read up on it before deciding if you want it. Saying that since you didn't like some totally different stuff released for another game earlier than the stuff released for this game will be crap is pretty ignorant.

Re:Yes to one, no to the other.

[yoyhed]

You can also get speech options for all the other SPECIAL attributes, if they're high enough.. although you're right, I never saw anything for having an attribute too low.. my 3rd character, a highly specialized killing machine, has 1 charisma and 1 perception and makes it by just fine.

If you're just a total bastard throughout the game the ending is pretty funny, and it does mention some specific things, but you're right that it doesn't really mention side quests. I do think the main quest got a little silly and felt rushed at a certain point, which sucks because before that it was sweet.

As far as Oblivion: at least Bethesda improved on that by hand-placing stuff in the world this time around. Oblivion just wasn't worth playing once you realized it was all leveled and you could just tool around the same starting areas as you leveled up to get the best items, and even worse, that you COULDN'T get those items at an earlier level. Fallout 3 vastly improves on the fun and replay factor of Oblivion with VATS and hand-placed items and locations.

And Morrowind: sure the NPCs were lifeless, the combat sucked, et cetera.. but at the time, had you ever played such a vast and hand-detailed game, with so much freedom? At least Morrowind's main quest was actually interesting (it had a ton of back story at every turn if you were willing to read) and took you through all sorts of places and trials, unlike most of Oblivion's and half of Fallout 3's. Although, you're right: in Morrowind even, Bethesda managed to make the ending feel half-assed, among other things.

Regardless, Morrowind still ranks as my favorite game of all time, just for the initial 250 hours or so of amazement as I explored every little nook and cranny of that world. And Fallout 3 is still a game I keep installed now, because it's so much more FUN (if you don't do the main quest after a certain point) to just explore and kill things. And Oblivion, well, I loved it at one point, but Fallout 3 has totally eclipsed it, since it is essentially a better version of Oblivion.

Re:Yes to one, no to the other.

[Fallingcow]

And Morrowind: sure the NPCs were lifeless, the combat sucked, et cetera.. but at the time, had you ever played such a vast and hand-detailed game, with so much freedom? At least Morrowind's main quest was actually interesting (it had a ton of back story at every turn if you were willing to read) and took you through all sorts of places and trials, unlike most of Oblivion's and half of Fallout 3's. Although, you're right: in Morrowind even, Bethesda managed to make the ending feel half-assed, among other things.

oh, Morrowind was great, no question about it. I've probably logged more hours in that game than any other I own--I've even got a copy of the installed program folder backed up, with 50 or so mods in place (such a pain to get them all playing nice together, don't ever want to do that again). And the main story wasn't really bad, but simply a bit less complete than it could have been. It's still my favorite game they've made; exploring the land's geography, finding awesome treasures hidden away in creepy caves, digging around in memorable and haunting (haunted?) Dwemer ruins, seeing the Ghost Fence for the first time... just a great experience all around.

Regardless, Morrowind still ranks as my favorite game of all time, just for the initial 250 hours or so of amazement as I explored every little nook and cranny of that world. And Fallout 3 is still a game I keep installed now, because it's so much more FUN (if you don't do the main quest after a certain point) to just explore and kill things. And Oblivion, well, I loved it at one point, but Fallout 3 has totally eclipsed it, since it is essentially a better version of Oblivion.

I recently returned to Oblivion (when I couldn't get Fallout 3 to run no matter what I tried--I eventually solved that problem by just putting it on my laptop instead) but with a large set of mods that I found via some of the excellent categorized mod lists online. The experience is infinitely better. Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul can't be praised enough, and the Unique Landscapes packages have finally given me a reason not to just fast-travel everywhere. I've spent as much time messing around with a regional quest involving some elf scouting parties and some enchanted armour off in the western 1/5 of the map as I did on the entire main quest in my first play through (I think Oscuro's added that one, and there seem to be others hinted at in other cities, so I think I've only scratched the surface of the new content). Finally, a reason to visit all of those mind-numbingly-similar dungeons they put in the game! Rewarding, non-leveled loot doesn't hurt, either. I've still not played the Shivering Isles, though my wife assures me that its main quest is better than the one in Oblivion proper, so I'm looking forward to it, though it may be a few... I don't know, months before I finish with all this new stuff added by the mods.

Re:Yes to one, no to the other.

[Anonymous Coward]

well in the ruined ( i think that was what it was.... might be cursed or flooded either way it was in hte middle of the route to bruma nad imp. city) mines north of imperial city there was ALWAYS a single goblin wiht a dwarven shield there no matter what point in time it was in the game. I would imagine that there might be other places like that, yknow with a item that was not appropriate for the char level.

Re:Yes to one, no to the other.

[beyondkaoru]

y'know what's really ridiculous about the ending?

(spoiler)

so, the danger is radiation, and you are given the choice between two humans to send in. why can't we send in my super mutant buddy? he is immune to radiation... and there's a ghoul you can get as a bodyguard too.

(end spoiler)

Re:Yes to one, no to the other.

[yoyhed]

True, but it was very rare that it was anything good since 99% of the stuff was randomly generated. The only rare, good thing I know of is Umbra's sword and armor, but she's almost impossible to kill at level 1. For starting stealth people, there was an outdoor ruin just west of the Imperial City that had a Fine Steel Bow sitting outside, which is nice while you're level 1 but rendered useless in a few levels when you get a Silver one..

Re:Yes to one, no to the other.

[Fallingcow]

The worst part, IMO, was how common enchanted weapons were by level 6-8 or so.

Every damn bandit glowed head to toe and had an enchanted weapon, it seemed. In Morrowind, enchanted weapons were relatively rare and only a few were really powerful, making Enchanting a useful skill. In Oblivion, why bother enchanting when you'll be at 100% chameleon with +5 strength and night eye just from armor you pick up off no-name enemies by level 10-12 anyway?

Hell, by level 12, you could go out naked with no weapons but a bow and be fully outfitted with great armor and weapons after your first encounter with a human enemy (aside from wizards, I guess). Worse was the sting of getting some great unique armor from completing a major quest early on or something like that, only to find that any random cave-dwelling bandit is has better armor just 3-4 levels later. Leveled unique items for quest rewards. WTF?

Re:Yes to one, no to the other.

[CronoCloud]

I'm level 27 in Oblivion and have yet to see an average bandit with magical stuff, They carry glass (and some carry daedric) which may "look" like it's glowing but isn't. It's the quest enemies, (and quest rewards) that have provided me with magic stuff. I got my first magic item with the Thuronir quest series, the final boss of that one carries a magic weapon. My first night eye item was a placed one, the Fin Gleam, which I actively searched for. I didn't see any other armor pieces with Night Eye till level 26! I've not seen any Chameleon items at all. My first +Str items were rings I enchanted myself.

Re:Yes to one, no to the other.

[CronoCloud]

There are some hand placed items in Oblivion, if you know where to look, the Fin Gleam being a famous example.

It's shocking

[Dr. Hellno]

that the fallout 3 expansion will be similar in size and scope to the oblivion expansion! It seems obvious to me that in between Oblivion and Fallout 3 they jettisoned their old design paradigm and followed a radical new direction! This is so totally unexpected!

Srsly though, I bought fallout 3 a while back and rolled a (sort of) melee character. So I basically got "oblivion with guns" without the guns.

There are some quality artists at Bethesda. Beyond that, I have absolutely nothing good to say about them. Writing? fucked. Combat? fucked. Quests? oh boy. Character progression? there isn't any, thanks to that ridiculously stupid difficulty scaling. In fact, I propose a trade. How about you, Bethesda, get to keep your DLC, and in exchange you stay the fuck away from decent, god-fearing franchises like Fallout. Thanks guys.

Re:It's shocking

[altloser]

So you played Oblivion with Hats

Re:It's shocking

[Fallingcow]

Writing? fucked. Combat? fucked. Quests? oh boy. Character progression? there isn't any, thanks to that ridiculously stupid difficulty scaling. In fact, I propose a trade. How about you, Bethesda, get to keep your DLC, and in exchange you stay the fuck away from decent, god-fearing franchises like Fallout. Thanks guys.

Heh, maybe they'll somehow manage to get the rights to do System Shock 3 next. *shudder* Or Thief (screw the critics, I even liked 3).

Thankfully they do release very capable modding tools, and a lot of problems can probably be fixed, but they left a number of holes that just can't be filled by anyone other than a professional team without seeming out-of-place or of inferior quality, largely due to the ubiquitous voice acting in the game.

I wish they could find the people who generate the good ideas at Bethesda (they do generate a lot of those, which is what keeps me coming back to their half-finished games), give them all raises, and then fire the ones who push unfinished products out the door and create or approve totally goddamned stupid things. They could replace them with some fresh blood, and, oh, I don't know, maybe start running their games by some playtesters and paying attention to what they say, so they'll spot things like, "huh, it's weird that I can't actually join the Sixth House, when the story and a few specific bits of dialogue seem to indicate that I can. I bet those quests would be fun!" or, "Jesus, these Ayleid ruins are boring, can't you give them some variety and/or create some free-form quests to make them worth visiting?", or "wow, that was dumb, why the hell did my dad just do that? I don't feel sad, I feel confused and irritated."

Re:It's shocking

[BenevolentP]

There is no very limited Level scaling in FO3; All creatures have a certain level range that scales with the player. But if you progress a few levels, you will one-shot every raider or mole-rat that gave you serious headaches before. And previous mole-rat teritory will not suddenly be infested with deathclaws or something.

FO3 isnt really great as a melee character, i give you that.

The combat is the best ive ever experienced in any not-strictly-turnbased game. Ever. The VATS isnt optional, youll die a lot if you dont use it.

I loved Fallout 1 & 2 and i absolutely love FO 3. The sheer amount of places, quests - i finished it after 85 hours and have visited about 70% of the places (judging by the map).

The writing isnt as good / funny as in FO1/2, but thats the only, minor fault i can find with it.

Re:It's shocking

[Jellybob]

FO3 isnt really great as a melee character, i give you that.

And why would anyone expect it to be? It's set in a world where the majority of people are packing guns, lasers, and rocket launchers. I can't imagine Iraq is much fun if you decide the only way you're going to go into combat is by hitting people in the face either.

Re:It's shocking

[Anonymous Coward]

DLC? FO3? When did people become blind to the difference between one word and two?

Before we know it we will be getting our fast food at KTFC and BGK.

Re:It's shocking

[sammyF70]

Not too sure which Fallout3 it was you bought "a while back". The game by Bethesda has been out for slightly less than a month, so either you fell through a time warp, you are aging superfast, or you have a very low attention span.

So far (with something like 30 hours of gameplay on a single character and only halfway through the main quest), I didn't think the writing was fucked at all. Most quests I found offer many different possible paths, some of which aren't obvious at first, and the dialogues have been consistently very good and well performed considering the aforementioned freedom and the fact that there is an incredible amount of spoken text in there.

Fucked combat? It wasn't through time you fell through, it was from an alternative universe . Combat in FO3 is stellar ... for what it is trying to be, namely a Roleplaying Game. It is not a FPS, never was intended to be (nor were the previous Fallout instances). You are supposed to use VATS in most circumstances. The only ones I can think of where you don't use VATS are

• very easy foes (radroaches after you reached a certain level, for example)
• whenever you don't have any action points left but don't want/can't wait. In that case, and here I might be mistaken, your luck (the game stat) plays a bigger role in whether you'll hit or not than during VATS events where your skills are more important.

If you play like it's an FPS (or in your case as melee, as if it was Dark Messiah), then of course, you won't have much fun. Not Bethesda's fault that you can't read game descriptions though.

Character Progression? *PLENTY* of that, thanks to the very complex and involving quests (or show me any other relatively recent RPG who let you make as many moral choices during quests), and as someone else stated earlier, the difficulty scaling only defines what you'll meet in certain zones based on the level you have the first time you actually enter the zone. Oh wait .. I suddenly see the light! I know what you've been rambling about! You see, the game we're talking about here is Fallout 3, it is NOT W.O.W.! The character progression isn't defined by how much you grind, but by the choice you make concerning your character's personae and how it affects the character's future decision. This should of course be reflected in the way you set your skillpoints and the way you choose your perks. And that's something Fallout3 does very well, considering it's only a computer game and not a human GM.
But of course, if you thought we were talking about W.O.W. (or maybe FFXI, or basically any MMORPG, along with most other single player ~RPGs~ (Diablo???) which came out lately), then all your comments make sense :
"Shitty combat?" "check!" "Fucked writing?" "There was writing??? oh! ... check!" "Character Progression?" "lots of that! I used a template I found on Tw1nK-R-Us, and was able to get to lvl 125 in a mere 5 hours ... Basically I play a Mutant Dwarf Mage with Ranger and Animal Companion. Doesn't make sense in the story, but who cares. That's the winning build. Everybody is playing those"

lots of talk just to tell you : you are wrong

Re:It's shocking

[MemoryDragon]

Amen to that... I personally like Fallout 3 as well, it is not the same as the old Fallouts and I would loved to have seen some of the old Black Isle guys doing parts of the game (But from what I read there were really bad issues between Bethesta, Interplay ans Black Isle - Basically Black Isle got screwed by both parties in many ways!!!)

But that does not reduce the fact that Fallout 3 is an excellent RPG in the best sense. And definitely not a shooter or level grinding game!

Re:It's shocking

[meringuoid]

It's set in a world where the majority of people are packing guns, lasers, and rocket launchers. I can't imagine Iraq is much fun if you decide the only way you're going to go into combat is by hitting people in the face either.

TROGG CAN PUNCH BETTER!

Re:It's shocking

[BenevolentP]

I agree. I just pointed it out since the original fallouts where better suited for that, since you could use your action points for moving instead of just attacking.

Re:It's shocking

[BenevolentP]

Sry for that.

Re:It's shocking

[Narpak]

he only ones I can think of where you don't use VATS are

* very easy foes (radroaches after you reached a certain level, for example)
* whenever you don't have any action points left but don't want/can't wait. In that case, and here I might be mistaken, your luck (the game stat) plays a bigger role in whether you'll hit or not than during VATS events where your skills are more important.

Personally I play on hardest difficulty setting (on a computer) and I often don't use VAT. Of course I realize that using VAT gives me a huge advantage; but for the most part I don't really need it. I have plenty of ammo and after years of Doom, Quake, Quake II, Quake III, Team Fortress, Team Fortress 2, Counter Strike and etc I have learned to aim and shoot pretty quick. Of course I am a bit of a walking armoury, but for the most part I use Hunting Rifle (or later Lincoln Rife), Chinese Assault Rifle and Combat Shootgun. As I said aiming and killing mobs without VAT, even on hardest, isn't that hard; but it does provide a bit more of a challenge.

Re:It's shocking

[Nephilium]

Fucked combat? It wasn't through time you fell through, it was from an alternative universe . Combat in FO3 is stellar ... for what it is trying to be, namely a Roleplaying Game. It is not a FPS, never was intended to be (nor were the previous Fallout instances). You are supposed to use VATS in most circumstances. The only ones I can think of where you don't use VATS are
* very easy foes (radroaches after you reached a certain level, for example)
* whenever you don't have any action points left but don't want/can't wait. In that case, and here I might be mistaken, your luck (the game stat) plays a bigger role in whether you'll hit or not than during VATS events where your skills are more important.

There's another time VATS fails. Sniping. I can line up a sniper shot and hit 90% of the time or better (outside of VATS), and only have a chance of 20% or less inside of VATS.

The other issues with Fallout 3 were the ending (which actually keeps you from continuing), the fact they made power armor shitty, the technical issues, and the PIPBoy issues with the Survival edition that Bethesda is ignoring...

Nephilium

Re:It's shocking

[ravenshrike]

Fallout isn't god-fearing, Fallout would shoot god just to see him scream. And then it'd shoot all of God's children, just because it fucking could.

Re:It's shocking

[westlake]

It's set in a world where the majority of people are packing guns, lasers, and rocket launchers.

I can't help wondering why you should be trusting a pre-war weapon in a Mad Max world. Why the thing hasn't rusted into uselessness or blown up in your face.

Re:It's shocking

[c_forq]

Except that aim doesn't do anything. It is completely based on stats. It doesn't matter if you unload a shotgun at close range, if your stats re low it is very possible every shot will be a miss.

Re:It's shocking

[citylivin]

"Writing? fucked. Combat? fucked. Quests? oh boy. Character progression? there isn't any"

Are you kidding me? Its the most revolutionary game put out in years. Every day at work I cant wait to get back to the wastes just to explore. Nothing beats cresting a hill, hunting rifle in hand and seeing an abandoned sewer grate in the distance. As you move closer you spot some feral dogs who also have an eye on you. Raise your rifle, toggle into VATS and BOOM HEADSHOT - the head is now cleft and flying through the air. You move towards the corpse and noticed that you can interact with the sewer. Do you dare open the grate and climb into the darkness?

Fallout is awesome! I actually thought the combat sucked too untill I realized that you could freeze time with vats ala oldschool fallout, and turn it into a turn based game. Before that I was mindlessly spray and praying things, and wasting tonnes of ammo.

Theres so much to explore, so many interesting conversations and so much freedom to be as good or bad as you want to be.

Im not sure what you were expecting, and I never played oblivian, but if you enjoyed the first 2 fallout games you WILL have a BLAST in this one. It is very true to the story and feel of the originals. I hope it wins game of the year, instead of a boring rehash which probably will win (im looking at you call of duty 4)

Re:It's shocking

[Narpak]

Except that aim doesn't do anything. It is completely based on stats.

That is in fact wrong. While stats greatly increases accuracy and damage I can still aim with my Cross-hair and hit my target (even with low skill). Not only that but if you unload a shotgun at close range into the head of a raider his/her head does come off.

And of course the fact that I am doing it proves that it can be done, claiming that aiming doesn't work is clearly wrong.

Re:It's shocking

[c_forq]

Pete Hines: Yes, all combat is governed by die rolls. So if you fire in real time and aim perfectly, you might still fail a roll and miss your target.

Source:http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=38623

Re:It's shocking

[fortunato]

I believe that was what the "repair" skill was for.

I can't believe people still fire revolutionary war era weapons in a modern world. Why the things haven't rusted into uselessness I just don't understand. ;)

Re:It's shocking

[justinlee37]

No, just no. They fucked the combat system. It should have used action points; instead, I can make a character with 1 agility and shoot as wildly and rapidly in real-time mode as I want. Then no matter how much I've been shooting, I can ALWAYS tab into the Pipboy at a moment's notice (no action point expenditure) and take 1-25 stimpacks to get to full health. Did you even PLAY the first two fucking games? Fallout 3: better than Oblivion, fun game, shitty Fallout sequel.

Re:It's shocking

[justinlee37]

They fucked the combat. Did you ever play the first two games? Basically, they should have used action points, VATS is not an RPG. VATS is a fucking band-aid for their failure to make a game with balance and real character design trade-offs. Without action points (as they were originally implemented), agility is meaningless. Without action points, tabbing into the Pipboy for a full-health dose of stimpacks is way too easy, and I can make an agility 1 character and still shoot as rapidly as I like during real-time. And you shouldn't be able to squeeze off a ton of rounds in real-time, and then go into VATS and shoot MORE. VATS is a fucking overpowered slow-mo bullshit mode only given to the player, making a terrible, non-RPG-like action game. Did you know you only take 10% damage in VATS? I bet you didn't.

You're obviously a fucking idiot, and a child. You assume that Fallout 3 is the pinnacle of RPG gameplay, and that someone criticizing it was thinking of W.O.W. instead? What, were you still in the fucking womb when Fallout 1 and 2 came out? They were way better than Fallout 3, and way better than fucking W.O.W., you god damned toddler. If Fallout 3 and W.O.W. are the only two RPGs you know, you don't know what a fucking RPG is.

Eat shit.

Re:It's shocking

[justinlee37]

The game by Bethesda has been out for slightly less than a month [wikipedia.org], so either you fell through a time warp, you are aging superfast, or you have a very low attention span.

So far (with something like 30 hours of gameplay on a single character and only halfway through the main quest)

No, he just put more time into it than you did. I had nearly 120 hours dumped into the game by the end of the 2nd or 3rd week. So yeah, it was "awhile ago." We've basically seen everything Fallout 3 has to offer by now. You're just slow.

Re:It's shocking

[justinlee37]

And why would anyone expect it to be?

Because Fallout 2 had a very in-depth unarmed combat system, with the option of switching between punches and kicks, new moves as your unarmed skill increases, and a smorgasbord of unarmed combat perks. Also in Fallout 2, you could do targeted shots with unarmed attacks; blinding a guy with a karate chop to the eyes never got old.

Especially because, in Fallout 2, perception was used to determine ranged combat distance modifiers, and blindness reduced your perception to 1. This meant that blinded characters had exceptionally low % chances to hit anyone with a firearm. Additionally, blinded characters often stopped fighting altogether and ran away. Now, if you used sneak to ambush someone, you could potentially blind this adversary with your eye-gouging karate chop before they even had a chance to get a single shot off.

However, I did have fun as a melee character in Fallout 3. It's all about the deathclaw gauntlet and the shiskebab.

Re:It's shocking

[justinlee37]

In fact, you HAD to use your action points, for both kinds of actions, ALWAYS. Making a truly interesting and balanced strategy game. Fallout 3 is some bullshit fast-paced, action-packed arcade shoot 'em up game with a skeleton RPG attached to it.

Re:It's shocking

[sammyF70]

Yeah, right. You just showed incredible maturity and knowledge here. I wish I was as smart or old as you.

I particularly like the alternative better modern C-RPGs you name, and of course I aknowledge that you are a god amongst game developpers

All this apart, I think you should lay off the crack for a moment, chill out, forget your mom told you were adopted and that no one likes you (perhaps even grab some moist cake) and just stop playing Fallout3 if you don't like it.

Despite your superior writing and discussion style which might or might not earn you a -1:flamebait, I'll address your concerns :

• Yes, tabbing and healing is too easy and should consume time instead of being instantaneous.
• No, you don't take only 10% damage in VATS. Care to provide a link to correct me?
• In my opinion, VATS is the right way to handle combat without losing the immersion created by a 3D real-time environment. Real-time-non-VATS combat is based on your skills and stats with a big proportion taken by your LUCK stat, as far as I've witnessed. It's like someone saying "I shoot generally in his direction without aiming" in a non-computer roleplaying game. VATS combat is heavily based on your skills with only a minimal LUCK element (though it's still there obviously).
• VATS is indeed not an RPG. It's a mechanism inside a C-RPG

oh .. and you're right. I should have mentioned the other C-RPGs I played extensively, but my childish mind can not really remember all those names since Bard's Tales on the C64 when I was 14. Please put that down to my young age. I'm really SO sorry!

Re:It's shocking

[sammyF70]

or I do have a life and you don't. /shrug

Re:It's shocking

[justinlee37]

VATS ruins what could have been an RPG. Also, here's a citation for the fact that VATS does have some bullshit damage reduction attached to it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCPVCYspxtQ . If you start experimenting inside of your own game, you'll suddenly realize that there is significant DR in VATS. I routinely survived nuclear car explosions simply by being in VATS mode when the explosion happened (and yet they still blew my opponents to bits). I saw a mod once that fixed the issue; I'd provide the link but I can't seem to find it again in any reasonable amount of time.

Re:It's shocking

[justinlee37]

The point is that you're a smug, snarky bastard. Obviously some people have had more time to play the game in the past month than others, so the "short attention span" stab is just that: a stab. And you know it. Yeah, I probably blew off a little too much of my Calculus class to play Fallout 3 when it was released ... so what? We've been waiting in vain for 10 years for the sequel to hit the shelves.

Re:It's shocking

[justinlee37]

P.S. Your weapon skill doesn't affect aiming outside of VATS, just damage values. So you can basically blow as many rounds as you like outside of VATS, if your aim is good they'll all land on the target, and then when your opponent gets close to you you can trigger VATS mode to fire some more shots (even if you have just 1 agility), which also includes the damage reduction benefit to you. Basically, your character is inherently a superhero because other people don't have damage reduction during VATS, and the character's statistics are only LOOSELY correlated with his abilities. You just have so much more inherent power than the other characters; not to mention that you get perks out the ass, NPCs get none, and all of the perks are way, way more powerful than they were in the old games. It's more of an action game than an RPG. This is coming from someone who originally had a positive opinion of Fallout 3, sunk many, many hours into it, and then decided that Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 were both far, far superior.

Re:It's shocking

[sammyF70]

Interesting and I agree THAT is stupid. Nice to hear that there is already a Mod fixing it. It can be found here by the way. Once the editor is out, you'll probably be able to find mods making FO3 more like FO1 and 2 I suppose.

Re:It's shocking

[sammyF70]

I think VATS is a step in the right direction to combine real-time 3D gameplay with a stat/skills roleplay approach. It's not perfect (especially the 10% damage thing is really stupid), but I'm confident most of the issues will be fixed by the community, thanks to the editor.

I don't hold a grudge against Bethesda for dumbing down the game. First of all they didn't dumb it down as much as Oblivion (proof of that are the 80 or so mods I use just to make Oblivion's gameplay more consistent), while trying to cater for a broad public (read casual console players), which is something they HAVE to do if they want to sell enough games. After all, they are a company like any others, just looking to make profit at the end of the day. But more than that, I think of Bethesda games as Sandbox games. They provide you with a game engine, graphical assets and a (more or less) barebone game, but they also give you the tools to alter the gameplay to your own liking. Oblivion, with the right mods, was a spectacular game in term of gameplay, and Fallout3 without mods is already great. Think about what the future holds once the GECK is released :D

On another note, you might want to try to find a copy of Wizardry8. That's the only roleplaying game I am aware of that tried to combine 3D-First Person View and turn based gameplay, something you sound like you would have liked for Fallout3 too.

Re:It's shocking

[mjwx]

The VATS isnt optional, you'll die a lot if you don't use it.

This isn't my experience, VATS is of a hindrance than a help, I've only used it twice, the first time was with a save reload combo until I got successive criticals and the second time was when I couldn't see to aim (at the fire ants). Apart from that my FPS skills have been more than sufficient. It seems to me that VATS was designed for a platform where you don't have an accurate aiming device like a mouse. Not that I'm complaining, I quite like the FPS system. The combat more forgiving then most FPS's, it kind of reminds me of System Shock 2.

But seriously, they should have gone either entirely turn based (like FO 1&2) or just dispensed with the system entirely. I didn't mind the turn based combat in FO 1 and 2 but FO 3 is arse backwards. They shouldn't have the AP's regenerate in real time, after you finish in VATS are you meant to run around getting shot whilst waiting for your AP's to regenerate? Utterly stupid system which is why I never use it. I play FO3 on normal and am yet to find an enemy which couldn't be dispatched without VATS and I'm not dying a lot but then again I'm playing on a PC, the limitations on console controllers may be a different story (which is why I game on PC).

The writing isn't as good / funny as in FO1/2

I hear you, they took out a lot of the black humour you found in Fallout 1/2. It seemed too Americanised as the humour in FO 1/2 really appealed to my British/Australian sense of humour while FO3 didnt really engage it. They did get a few jokes in there but I found that they were hard to pick up (the "local cult" sign in Megaton).

The sheer amount of places, quests - i finished it after 85 hours and have visited about 70% of the places (judging by the map).

I finished it in about 30 hours but I didn't do most of the side quests. I'm replaying it now and I'd say I did less than 30% of the non story quests and I only got to Level 17. Only doing the story quests makes the game a bit short but the side quests more than make up for this. Fallout 3 is about the right length and the insertion of random events (respawning of raiders/monsters) is spot on which is a pleasant surprise from such atrocious attempts at artificially increasing a games size by randomly having people attack you every twenty seconds of travel and having every checkpoint respawn baddies after leaving it for 20 seconds FarCry 2 and Stalker: Clear Sky I'm looking at you here. FO 3 differs from its predecessors quite a bit but I will say that it's a pleasant surprise and I've enjoyed the game a lot, also its exactly 1 1973 V8 away from Mad Max town.

Re:It's shocking

[mjwx]

And definitely not a shooter

I seem to be reading this a lot. I'm playing Fallout 3 on the PC and this is definitely not my experience. quite the contrary I've found VATS to be far less useful then playing it as a straight FPS, I score more hits (and faster) aiming manually using the mouse. The combat reminds me a bit of System Shock 2.

Re:It's shocking

[Dr. Hellno]

Allow me to be more specific.

combat
VATS as a combat system has absolutely nothing to do with role-playing. In fact, they couldn't have found a better way to break up any sense of immersion I was starting to feel. It's silly of you to assume that I expect the game to be more like an fps; my whole point was basically that Bethesda took the franchise in the wrong direction. Now, I think what this game needed was some kind of legitimate, turn-based system, but frankly FPS would have been okay too, so long as it was internally consistent. With VATS, I find that using melee weapons causes my character to teleport spontaneously around the battleground, swinging like a madman at the air around my opponents. Even with ranged weapons, where the result makes sense visually, using VATS feels cheap and too easy, for reasons other people have raised. And VATS, though a huge, glaring mistake, isn't the only problem with combat. Crippled limbs happen too often and fail to have any significant effect. Enemies become hung-up on walls. Almost every enemy without a ranged weapon can be destroyed by running backwards in a wide circle, firing clips into its face. Meds are too easy to use in combat, too plentiful in the world, and often somewhat overpowered (the souped-up nuka-cola which greatly increased AP comes to mind). That's just a sampling. I won't claim that combat in either of the first 2 Fallout games was perfect, but it was consistent internally. Nothing looked buggy or unintended, sensible tactics were required, and logical cohesion was present.

Writing/Quests
I haven't finished the game so I'll admit I don't have all the information here, but I can still make a judgment based on what I've seen.
Aspects of the main quest are ridiculously obvious. I don't want to spoil anything, but there are certain things about your pops which should be obvious early, and furthermore, are made obvious often thereafter. I believe this is the form of exposition referred to as the "beating a dead horse" method. Well, fine. We also have the problems endemic to Bethesda dialogue system; in every town there are about 30 people with the same things to say to you in about 5 different voices. The things people say when you bump into them are often strangely at odds with what they say when you enter into dialogue with them (when someone says "how ARE you," I eagerly enter conversation expecting something useful, only to be greeted with "I don't want to talk to you" or "get away from me" or some such. Maybe it's my breath.) Similarly, whenever I looked at a door or chest or anything, I got some garbage about "I see you eying that," which was honestly sort of cool, and still really fucking annoying. I suppose it's an uncanny valley thing, since I never mistook any of the characters in the first two fallout games for real and it didn't bother me, but it's rather confounding how the population of Fallout 3 could almost just about pass as an enormous colony of retarded siblings. As for quests; often I wasn't sure if what I was doing would solve a quest or forever break it, a feeling I'm familiar with in Bethesda games. Questing in Bethesda games is more about guessing what the designers had in mind than it is about finding a logical solution. Consider the quest about the missing android in rivet city. It was fairly obvious where I had to go, and once I did, it was clear who I had to talk to, what I would be given, and where I would then have to go to complete things. But the dialogue options I needed to access weren't available because I hadn't followed the quest exactly as they expected me to, and substantial back-tracking was required before I could solve things.

Other Stealing mechanics are silly. The whole open-world feels samey. Radiation is too easy to get rid of and has no real consequence anyway. Repair system, not a great choice. Large areas often feel insignificant, irrelevant to the rest of the game (e.g. minefield, grayditch). Vendors seem to gradually get an expanded list of wa

Re:It's shocking

[Anonymous Coward]

If they fuck up system shock 3.

I will kill them.

Seriously.

Re:It's shocking

[sammyF70]

I didn't finish the main quest yet (having been spoilt about the fact that it's a) The End and b) it kind of sucks, even though I made my best to avoid hearing about specifics, I'm doing my best to just push it as far away as possible), and I haven't been to Rivet City yet (one thing people don't complain about but which really bugs me is the whole metro system thing). But concerning the rest of your points ...

Radiation, plentiful drugs (incl. stims), crippled limbs and some of the shortcomings of the VATs are taken care of by at least one mod (and that's even before the GECK is out). I don't have the link right now, but it's in one of my other answers to this thread.

Irrelevant areas : yes, they are irrelevant to the main quest, but they flesh out the world. Fallout3 isn't supposed to be linear, so it makes sense to have a lot of areas which don't add anything but make the world more believable (along with being self contained dungeons and sometimes part of side quests. Both Grey Ditch and Minefield are in that category by the way.)

Lack of individual dialogue for generic characters is something that will plague any open game you'll ever play, except if someone comes up with some really good speech synthesis. As it is now, Game developers have a certain budget, which they hopefully try to use as best as can be. Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout3 do a pretty good job (better with each iteration imo) at having relatively diverse chitchat. The same budget argument can be brought concerning the lack of towns and population centers, although, at the last count, I have found 6 in the wasteland, plus all the ones in the city itself, like GNR and Underworld.

I don't think you can bring out a turn based RPG nowadays and expect it to be successful commercially. As I told someone else, check out Wizardry8 for a turn based RPG in a completely 3D environment. It isn't as much fun as you might think. And I'm personally happy they didn't go for a pure FPS. It's supposed to be a RPG, so your stats and skills should have an effect on as much as possible. That's what the VATS is good for. Personally, I miss more often than not during VATS events and that's due to my character being more Social Interaction- rather than Weapon based. I have one weapon skill above 50 (small guns at 52 to be precise), and that's mostly because I stumbled upon a lot of "Guns and Bullets" magazines. There are plenty of mediocre to very good FPS (Left4Dead being my personal favourite right now) out there. The world can do with one less.

My opinion is that it's Bethesda's take on the Fallout Universe and that they succeeded. It's NOT Fallout 1 or Fallout 2, but the universe is definitely Fallout-ish and the game has been successfully brought into the 21st century, with all the drawbacks of increased reliance on shiny real time 3D that's expected from a modern game while both refining Bethesda's game engine (no point in denying that the Elder Scrolls legacy shines through) and still creating, as you say, a unique game experience you'll be hard pressed to find in any game currently available on the market.

And from my experience with the Oblivion mod community, I'm pretty sure it is bound to become even better once the Editor is out.

Re:It's shocking

[MemoryDragon]

Actually since I am not a shooter guy I basically always refer to the VATS where it makes sense.
The VATs generally gives a more relaxed pace to the game (one reason why I hate shooters)
From what I found is, that if your skills are low, the VATs makes more sense in the smaller distances while straight shooter style especially if you have sniper rifles or similar weapons make more sense in the longer ranges.
But at higher levels both systems even out and the VATs in my opinion becomes more effective than straight shooter style! Also a good usage of VATs conserves a lot of ammo, and ammo is a huge concern if you are lower level. Later on it is not unless you want to use the FatMan and mini nukes all the time.

Since I liked the pace of the VATs I never really had the shooter feeling.

Re:It's shocking

[MemoryDragon]

Pete Hines: Yes, all combat is governed by die rolls. So if you fire in real time and aim perfectly, you might still fail a roll and miss your target.

Source:http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=38623

I second that I noticed that several times, that you still can miss with a perfect target. But using the sniper rifle shooter style still can give you an advantage in a plain shooter situation if you have the reflexes. There are certain weapons which work better in shooter style than in VATs style. The sniper type weapons for instance or the flamer, which is usually the close range combat option for me for groups of enemies.
 

Re:It's shocking

[MemoryDragon]

Huh? VATs means everything in the outside world is halted, unless I noticed it wrongly.

Re:It's shocking

[MemoryDragon]

You can be glad that you still have that much time. I have mostly sunken 20-30 hours into the game.
Between Girlfriend, her pregnancy, job and various tasks for the new family there is is not much more time left...

A life as a full blown adult and its merits :-)
Btw. you never really stop gaming even if you are in the late 30s ;-)

Re:It's shocking

[MemoryDragon]

The humor is one big thing why I thought in the beginning the game was seriously missing.
And I still think they shouldnÂt have gotten rid of it. The first fallout had really black humor, well it has sort of worn off. While Mr Handyman for instance was really funny the first time, it is not humourous in Fallout 3 anymore. The second fallout felt like a monti pyhton episode. Fallout 3 made the mistake not to add too much humor to the in jokes Fallout 1 already had so it does not feel humorous except for a few things like the Talon Company Mercs or the Local cult or the VR simulation.

I think this is one thing Bethestha really has to work on for Fallout 4 bring back the humor and pop culture references! Fallout 3 simply is too gritty and to serious!

Re:It's shocking

[steveo777]

Yeah, I think I have 14 hours in the game. Full time work, school, girlfriend, family. Games are the very last priority... I don't think the word priority is even applicable at this point. LOL

And, FWIW, I feel that Fallout 3 is a great game, but I also never liked the first two (combat system) due to action points. I'm huge on strategy games, and Fallout 1&2 should have been right up my alley. But I just never liked the engine enough to play. Oh well. So, whether or not that is good for the Fallout legacy is for anyone to decide. Oh, and I use VATS rather often and like it, but I can freehand as well as long as the lighting permits. And I have it on 360.

Re:It's shocking

[Anonymous Coward]

actually if you get ol' painless from the republic of dave, it has a zero spread so it a guarantee hit to whatever is on your crosshairs regardless of skill.

Re:It's shocking

[westlake]

I can't believe people still fire revolutionary war era weapons in a modern world. Why the things haven't rusted into uselessness I just don't understand. ;)

Most of them have.
The "replica" long rifle - as a presentation piece or a gentleman's sporting gun with over-elaborate inlaid decoration in brass or silver - appears as early as 1825. Something more authentic can be had today for $600-$700. Pennsylvania Rifles

Re:It's shocking

[fortunato]

The "replica" long rifle - as a presentation piece or a gentleman's sporting gun with over-elaborate inlaid decoration in brass or silver - appears as early as 1825. Something more authentic can be had today for $600-$700. Pennsylvania Rifles

The point, that you apparently missed, was that all of them have not. If people's lives depended on them, in the way carrying a firearm does in Fallout 3, there would be a heck of a lot more because people would be constantly repairing and maintaining them any way they can.

Hence the repair skill.

Re:It's shocking

[Anonymous Coward]

So you played Oblivion with Hats

Hats are cool.

Re:It's shocking

[mcvos]

In Fallout 2 you had to survive with a melee weapon for quite a long time, and a couple of your companions were pretty effective despite being entirely melee oriented.

Re:It's shocking

[mcvos]

also its exactly 1 1973 V8 away from Mad Max town.

I liked the car you got in FO2. Maybe the DLC will add something like that?

I miss the free DLCs

[naz404]

I wish more game companies would provide the kind of fan service Valve and Epic have with the bonus packs in the Unreal series (+tons of official/endorsed mods like in the GOTY editions) and new features and content Valve has been providing with stuff like the Team Fortress 2 updates (new game modes, maps, achievements, etc (and hopefully they release bonus content for Left 4 Dead down the line!))

Morrowind had some really nice free downloadable content plugins

Some of the "for sale" Oblivion DLC weren't as neat and should have just been given away for free to fans (I'm looking at you, horse armor!)

I wish Bethesda would be more involved and actively participate in the modding community and dip once in a while with free official mods of their own again. What's even more irritating is the way Bethesda leaves tons of bugs left unfixed, and it's up to the mod community to patch these errors up (see the unofficial Oblivion patches which fixed tons of bugs Bethesda left alone)

As for if DLC release timing "too soon" as MTV asks: unless they are buggy no such thing as too soon if these DLC are side-quests that add to the main game experience. Dusting up dormant game copies you've finished just to add a few perks when you've finished the game and have an uber-character isn't as fun

Tell me ...

[cablepokerface]

Is it really a good game? I'm not sure. I bought it for the 360 a week ago and was unhappily surprised how much of the codebase of Oblivion was reused for this game. I've done a couple of quests and while everybody is happy with the work they've done I really belong to the camp of the "Oblivion with Guns" people.

Re:Tell me ...

[MemoryDragon]

It depends, at the beginning I felt it lacked... but I am now 20 hours into the game and I am really happy with it. And I loved the old Fallouts!
The game becomes better the longer you play!

Re:Tell me ...

[ravenshrike]

Clearly you haven't finished the game with either a Super Mutant or Ghoul in your party.

Re:Tell me ...

[BigJClark]

I just interpret that as good programmers doing exactly what they should. As I have never played oblivion, the fact that the package was so reusable for a game of a completely different tone, I say kudos.

PS3?

[Anonymous Coward]

GTA 4 DLC is 360 only. FO3 DLC is 360 only. Is MS paying them off or did they look at their sales and decide it was a waste of time?

Re:PS3?

[CronoCloud]

More likely they're just being lazy bums, because the PS3 version of Oblivion sold enough to reach "Greatest Hit" status which requires sales of at least 500000 copies. Oblivion for PS3 also has Shivering Isles available as DLC (for those who buy the original release rather than the GOTY edition).

Re:PS3?

[Anonymous Coward]

Having worked on DLC support for both Xbox360 and PS3 titles, I will tell you that PS3 DLC support is a bitch and very lacking, tied closely to the online system. On 360 it's part of the core SDK. While I've implement the PS3 DLC system, we'll probably skip shipping our DLC on PS3 due to the complications with it and lack of security inherent in the system.

PS3

[HalAtWork]

What's so difficult about porting between Win/360 & PS3? Do they even have to do anything extra? It's the same engine and the same game, don't they interpret the same assets in the same way?

Re:PS3

[tepples]

What's so difficult about porting between Win/360 & PS3?

Xbox ran an operating system forked from Windows 2000, and Xbox 360 runs an update to that. And the Xbox 360 graphics API looks a lot more like Windows Direct3D than like OpenGL ES, which is what the PLAYSTATION 3 uses.

Do they even have to do anything extra? It's the same engine

Not exactly. Xbox 360's Xenon CPU has three CPU cores, which allows the same sort of scheduling used on multicore PCs. The Cell CPU of the PS3, on the other hand, has one CPU core and a half dozen signal processors, which need a different form of time and memory scheduling. So some of the engine has to be rewritten and tested thoroughly to make sure that those parts of the engine that need to be different due to the different architectures are giving the same result.

It costs more than zero to port, test, and sell the entire game on a PS3. Testing by the developer costs money, testing by the publisher costs money, testing by the console maker costs money, and renting retail shelf space costs money. It's not guaranteed that a multiplatform release will reach enough PS3-only households, especially because in North America, Xbox 360 consoles have outsold PS3 consoles over two to one according to VG Chartz.

Re:PS3

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm really disappointed with Bethesda. I used to be upset over shitty EA ports, but at least EA supports their shitty ports on the platforms they're released on.

Re:PS3

[MemoryDragon]

Actually the biggest issue probably is that the PS3 architecture is so inherently different to anything else. The PS3 almost is like a pentium with two high end graphics cards added on top of it. You get a lousy general purpose core and two units of SIMD procecssing fast as hell.
(both the cell and the Nvidia card are pretty equal in speed)
So if you program against a normal CPU with multiple cores do some serious threading which you can rely on and use the SIMD stuff mainly for pushing graphics and maybe adding a little bit of calculation over the nvidia API, and then you have to port this over to the PS3 you are seriously in porting hell.

(Bethesta has their own engine which makes porting even worse because they have to do everything themselves)

Re:PS3

[steveo777]

I think what Hal is getting at is that since Oblivion is already ported, then Fallout 3 should be that much easier to port. Just get the same people on it and they should already know what they're doing. But 'should' is a relative term.

Yeah, the architectures are drastically different, but they've already got a working blueprint.

Re:PS3

[larry bagina]

The PS3 version of fallout 3 was released the same day as the windows and 360 versions. The question was about the new content.

and the bug-fix patch is coming out ... when?

[crow5599]

Seriously. Where's our patch? This is one of the buggiest games I've ever played in my life. I couldn't finish the main quest on the PS3 version because of a game-ending glitch. I had to watch the damn ending(s) on YouTube.

Re:and the bug-fix patch is coming out ... when?

[Andre_PC]

It's pretty stupid for a console game to have nasty bugs like that. DCL made those companies pretty lazy and ready to release a half-asset game to the public. -_-

Re:and the bug-fix patch is coming out ... when?

[mjwx]

OK, Bethedsa

Additional content is all good and well and I don't mean to sound unappreciative but...
FIX THE FUCKING BUGS FIRST.
That is all. Cary on, nothing more to see here.

Re:and the bug-fix patch is coming out ... when?

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly you've never played Fallout 1 and 2. Cut them a break. They're just trying to stay true to the originals.

Re:and the bug-fix patch is coming out ... when?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about getting a regular computer for games that support mods! You're missing out on 90% of the fun that has yet to come!

DLC might not be as good, but don't ever underestimate the pride of mod-makers. Replace the Fatman with a Fireball Wand and you did half the job for a post-apocalyptic Oblivion with VATS ;)

Re:and the bug-fix patch is coming out ... when?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously. Where's our patch? This is one of the buggiest games I've ever played in my life. I couldn't finish the main quest on the PS3 version because of a game-ending glitch. I had to watch the damn ending(s) on YouTube.

There is a patch on the Bethesda website: http://www.bethsoft.com/eng/downloads_01.html

Re:and the bug-fix patch is coming out ... when?

[larry bagina]

That patch is for the Windows version.

Ha!

[Kingrames]

That's what you blasphemers get for ordering it on the XBOX 360.

I'll be enjoying all sorts of new toys.

Time for piracy...

[VinylRecords]

And companies wonder why we don't pay for their games.

I pre-ordered a BRAND NEW copy of Fallout 3 for my PS3 (Survival Edition from Amazon) the day it first became available.

It arrived at my doorstep the same day that the first reviews started appearing, reviews like the one at IGN where they said that the PS3 version was riddled with bugs and glitches and made parts of the game unplayable...of course IGN is in the pocket of the game companies so the PS3 version was given a ridiculous 9.4 out of 10.

Really 9.4 out of 10 when the game has massive glitches, bugs, and freezes constantly? Many quests cannot be completed due to glitches including sometimes the final quest. 9.4 for that? No ending to the game? NO downloadble content? This is a 9.4?

So the 360/PC versions get a 9.6/10 meaning that all of these things: massive glitches, tons of bugs, terrible draw distance, no downloadable content whatsoever...........are all worth a combined score .2 out of 10.

I thought, "ok be optimistic, so I might encounter some glitches that's fine," but before I had even left vault 101 I had to HARD reboot my PS3 not once but three times as the game froze THREE times while I was taking the g.o.a.t. at school. Did Bethesda test the PS3 version? (Rhetorical question. Answer: no)

Now that the PS3 won't be getting down-loadable content I will be downloading a PC copy and playing that.

If I had known during my pre-order of Fallout 3 for the PS3 that the game would be nearly unplayable without encountering massive problems and that the game would have no ending to the story...and no DLC to resolve the story in the future...I would have opted to just avoid the game entirely.

I know some people are going to respond, "you should have gotten the PC version" but as a hardcore PS2 fan (Metal Gear, Final Fantasy, God of War), unless a game is exclusive to the PC (Starcraft II!), if it's multi-platform I usually go for the PS3 version (like I did with Dead Space).

IGN :

"Fallout 3 is a top notch shooter-RPG that fails to disappoint in any substantial way. There are minor problems with the game -- issues such as clipping, the occasional framerate chug, and some questionable animation (especially in third-person view) -- but nothing that takes away from the overarching enjoyment you should derive from even a few hours of gameplay."

This is from the PS3 review. Top notch? No. Better than average. Yes. Worth $60 on the PS3. No way.

Re:Time for piracy...

[BigJClark]

Solution: Take your game back.

Seriously, I own the PC copy, no major glitches thusfar, but if it contained even half as many bugs as you have described, I'd take it back and demand a full money refund.

Re:Time for piracy...

[VinylRecords]

No retailer would ever offer a full refund for an opened game. The only way to circumnavigate a full refund is of course to pirate a retail version of the game on a different platform. In my case, I will be keeping my PS3 version, collecting dust in its case, and then pirating the PC version to play.

And because the PS3 version has no DLC available I will without question be pirating the DLC for the PC unless Bethesda decides to violate the ridiculous cartel that is Microsoft and actually go multi-platform with add-on content.

Re:Time for piracy...

[MemoryDragon]

Well you really should have gotten the PC version it is very stable. I just have hangs when the game quits but then I simply kill the process. Never had a hang so far in game!
The hangs at game quit have more to do with Windows Live than Bethestas code :-(

Re:Time for piracy...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why I never pre-order a game, or buy it within the first few weeks of release.

It's the same reason I never go to a movie during it's opening week.

I wait a bit, hear real reviews from real people who did jump early, and see if it's worth bothering with or not.

I've saved a lot of money by not paying for crap over the last few years staying with that method.

Tired of their lies and spin

[Jabbrwokk]

You know, I am really tired of Bethesda's lies and spin. Maybe it's not lying exactly to say, ohh, we don't know yet if we're going to release a toolkit, it's a lot of work" and then announce it one month after the game launches, but it's pretty cynical. They know the modding community kept Morrowind and Oblivion alive and selling copies far longer than the duration of their in-house content for the game ever could. They know the modding community encouraged sales of their game. But instead of saying thanks they treat them like competitors. They probably had this in the bag months ago but held off on announcing the Fallout 3 toolkit because they wanted to make sure free mods wouldn't be competing with their paid downloadable content. If they can get their downloadable crap out first, they can make some money before the modders are unleashed. Plus, they know the modders will really make the game shine and show how inadequate their "professional" product was in the first place.

If they had opened the game up to the modding community in a closed beta months ago (even hired them as consultants, imagine that) and let them tweak and tune the game, I bet the finished product would have been something that would have pleased a wider variety of fans, would have been more polished and would have been an instant classic, like the first game. And would have sold buttloads more copies. But no, instead modders get treated with suspicion and we get a bunch of corporate double-talk.

Maybe I will buy this game in two years, when I find it in the bargain bin and there are gigabytes worth of great mods to improve it, but I'm sick of Bethesda's crap. If I want to play a good RPG I'll play the Witcher, created by a design studio which actually listened to its fans enough to create an enhanced edition and new quests, all downloadable for FREE.

Re:Tired of their lies and spin

[MemoryDragon]

Actually who cares if you have to wait 1-2 months for the toolset, most games dont even have one.
I can live with it.

Not time for piracy...

[mjwx]

reviews like the one at IGN

There's your problem, relying on a commercial game site to provide you with accurate information on a game. You'll often glean more facts out of the "official" game forums, you may get to a critical thread before they delete it.

Personally I no longer buy a game until I've heard what proper game critics have to say about it. I now work on the theory that I should find out everything that's wrong with the game and if I can live with the problems (weather they be technical, story or gameplay related) then I'll consider purchasing the product.

Fallout 3 is a PC game ported to PS3 which would explain why he PS3 is having the worst problems. I purchased the PC version and it had no problems running at full spec on my 2 yr old gaming box. I was even able to get it running smoothly on a 4 yr old gaming box (granted at a low resolution) that my housemate had. Whilst I've had a few crashes on PC its nothing show stopping, I would prefer however that Bethesda would fix the damn bugs rather than release additional content.

This is from the PS3 review. Top notch? No. Better than average. Yes. Worth $60 on the PS3. No way.

Once again I'd say this is a PS3 issue, my mate who has all three consoles plus a gaming PC said that the PC version I lent him was considerably less buggy than his PS3 version. This kind of thing happens when a port is rushed and half arsed. Personally as a PC gamer I'd rather they spent the time on porting the half finished game on polishing it on the PC.

Apart from releasing a buggy port Bethesda has done nothing wrong (no draconian DRM, I don't like Tages but I can live with it) and if the bugs matter that much to you don't buy it. Piracy will not send a clear message to Bethesda or the games industry about bugs.

Re:Not time for piracy...

[Zumbs]

Fallout 3 is a PC game ported to PS3

No, It's a XBox game ported to the PC and PS3. If you look at the User Interface that should be pretty obvious. But you are right in one point: PS3 is getting screwed. XBox users get extra downloadable content, PC users get a SDK (aptly named G.E.C.K.) and access to the downloadable content ... PS3 users get neither.

Why is this, you may ask. Microsoft paid Bethesda (the developer) a hefty sum to get an exclusive for MS (XBox and PC), which would make XBox more attractive that PS3. This is a move by MS to push Sony and PS out of the console market, giving MS yet another monopoly.

Re:Not time for piracy...

[mjwx]

No, It's a XBox game ported to the PC and PS3.

No, it was originally written using the Windows PC API's (Direct X 9). Due to the similarities between the Windows and XBOX API's it was a trivial matter to develop an Xbox version.

f you look at the User Interface that should be pretty obvious.

Don't know how you drew that conclusion? The UI is fairly standard FPS fare which has been around on the PC for over a decade and the XBOX for about half that. If you've bothered to play the game on PC (I've got it on PC and played it on PS3) you'll note that the controls are clearly designed to be used optimally with the mouse and keyboard combination.

Why is this, you may ask. Microsoft paid Bethesda (the developer) a hefty sum to get an exclusive for MS (XBox and PC)

No, wrong again. MS paid Bethesda little in comparison to the amount they paid the commercial game sites (IGN, Gamespot and the like) to do all the reviews on XBOX. IGN in particular used the Xbox reveiw for the PC reveiw word for word (even mentioned pressing the "X" button once or twice), this is because MS wanted people to think it was an Xbox game and if you read or listen to some independent reviews ("Yatzee" Croshaws Zero Punctuation for example) you begin to understand that the game was really designed for PC.

Also you misunderstand Microsoft motives, MS gets next to nothing from the "Games For Windows" programs especially seeing as their "Pay for online play" scheme went down in flames (as it should have) but they do receive a hefty license fee for every Xbox game made (per unit). MS would have preferred to sell only Xbox units but developers find it easier and more profitable to develop for PC first, hence they pay the reviewers not the developers.

Everybody Hates Katamari

[Channard]

No matter how odd producing DLC so soon after the game's release may seem, it can't beat the Beautiful Katamari DLC for sheer audacity. Which actually unlocked levels that were already there in the game.

About Oblivion

[Anonymous Coward]

User made mods VASTLY improve vanilla Oblivion to the point where it becomes freaking awesome. In fact I highly not recommend playing vanilla Oblivion at all.
 
World detail, scope, background story, world history, atmosphere and anything related to world construction are so good that it out weights everything else like game mechanics, game play, dry quests and bugs which are a smoking pile of brahmin poo. Fortunately there is a construction set which allows people to eventually modify that smoking pile of brahmin poo into something playable. That I believe made The Elder Scrolls a series that will go down in history.

I just wish Bethesda pulled their heads out of their asses and adopted Blizzard approach at least partially.