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Copper Thieves Jeopardize US Infrastructure
coondoggie supplies an excerpt from Network World that might make you consider a lock for your pipes: "The FBI today ratcheted up the clamor to do something more substantive about the monumental growth of copper theft in the US. In a report issued today the FBI said the rising theft of the metal is threatening the critical infrastructure by targeting electrical substations, cellular towers, telephone land lines, railroads, water wells, construction sites, and vacant homes for lucrative profits. Copper thefts from these targets have increased since 2006; and they are currently disrupting the flow of electricity, telecommunications, transportation, water supply, heating, and security and emergency services, and present a risk to both public safety and national security." (A July, 2006 post on Ethan Zuckerman's blog gives an idea of how widespread cable theft has affected internet infrastructure, and basketmaking, in Africa.)
This is a huge problem here in Vancouver, Canada. One solution that has been bandied around is requiring the scrap dealers to not pay cash - i.e. if you have copper to sell you get a receipt from the scrap dealer, provide your name & address and in 30 days the dealer mails you a cheque. As most junkies don't have addresses, nor are they prepared to wait 30 days, they'll stop selling copper. The legitimate sellers don't mind waiting 30 days.
I love it when AC's run around insulting countries. These aren't poor and homeless people stealing copper, these are career criminals or bored teens and twenty-somethings just looking for some extra money and something to do.
"A claim for equality of material position can be met only by a government with totalitarian powers." Hayek
This is due to the difference in income status between the rich and the poor in the US. The rich need the valuable infrastructure. The poor just need to live.
Absolute rubbish. The US is far from the Paris depicted in "Les Miserables", where the poor have to steal to live. These people are doing it because they think it will put them on the fast track to make them rich. Having an LCD television or supporting a drug habit is not "needing to live".
To think I almost cried at the plight of the "poor" in America after reading your post. NOT. I live in the REAL 3rd world, and I see REAL poverty every day.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Kinda hard to insinuate that a theft of materials for purely financial gain is somehow intended to strike fear into the hearts of the populace.
Or are you just following the knee-jerk reaction to label "anything sufficiently disliked" as "terrorism"?
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
Yes, I agree with you completely. We need a new subsection of theft involving critical infrastructure, instead of the silly sub-$1000 slap on the wrist fines.
Being a kid or poor doesn't exempt them from being idiots.
Imposition of the death penalty to those caught red-handed would do a lot in stemming the theft of copper in our critical infrastructure.
I second this approach if it can be proven that lives of law abiding Americans were put in danger at any moment during or after the theft.
This approach works in China so I believe it would do likewise in these United States of America.
Theft of materials might not be terrorism, but destruction of infrastructures to get said materials should at least be labeled vandalism.
I think there is a common sentiment to apply terrorism laws to things that aren't terrorism. This isn't terrorism and shouldn't be punished as such. If society wants to seriously punish people who intentionally dismantle infrastructure, than harsher laws need to be passed to that effect.
That is a very broad definition of infrastrucure... and terrorism... if you hit a stop sign or a power line because you lost control of your car are you a terrorist? You affected "critical" infrastructure... We must be very carefull with this whole "call everything terrorism" thing. I think we are at critical mass with the current state of affairs. Our government has done a wonderfull job scaring personal freedoms out of us. Sure stealing copper and knocking out 911 service or power to an area is a deplorable act but not one of terrorism. The current tendency to call everything terrorism is very dangerous...
Eye for an eye and half of the world will have just one eye!
In fact, the basic premise of Capitalism is that if you have some resources, some capital, if you will (like, say, US dollars, or copper pipes) you get to keep them and invest them in something which will (hopefully) bring you something of value in the future (like, say, a small business, or stock of a big business, or the warmth/comfort/enjoyment of your home).
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
that's the choke point
you're not going to stop heroin junkies, you're not going to secure theft sites
scrap dealers need to be bound up in red tape, and then scrap dealers who skirt the ordinances must be dealt with harshly. you don't have to worry about international or interstate transport, as you are going to destroy your profit margin on what usually amounts to less than $100 for a lot of heavy metal, and you are not usually dealing with criminal masterminds here who would exert the effort. nor do they have the resources to melt it down themselves
the scrap dealer is the point at which illegal goods get turned into legal goods and profit. scrap dealers therefore are going to have to be tied up in laws and regulations in order to stop this trade, and watched like hawks. chain of custody regulations must be put in place: if you use a bunch of metal, you have to produce paperwork detaling where it came from
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Now, if they only worked that hard at a real job.
Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
Maybe it's time to consider copper theft an act of terrorism?
At least in the cases when infrastructure is threatened.
Maybe it's time to consider those who use current topics on the minds of the people to pass stupid laws and ruin the country "Traitors"!
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
If the economy tanks, it'll get much worse.
The fences aren't made from real iron? What are they made from?
Also, that's a perfect example of irony: your efforts to reduce loss form theft lead directly to increased loss from theft. Doncha think?
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Incorrect- they're mainly meth-heads looking for a way to pay for their next hit. Anyway, no career criminal or bored teen would steal copper from the lights in the MAX tunnel- anybody with a mind not influenced by drugs finds 44 ton trains moving at 55 mph to be kind of scary.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Not when copper prices fall through the floor thanks to the implosion of the construction boom. If there's no demand for the stuff, the price goes way down.
As we're condemning these thieves for being fucking assholes, tearing down their own community's infrastructure for the scrap value, just remember that the only difference between them and the financial wizards and CEO's who brought us into our current crisis is a matter of scale.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
destruction of infrastructures to get said materials should at least be labeled vandalism.
I think a more appropriate term might be sabotage.
-- Alastair
What I really love are the jokers who cut or break the catalytic converters off of cars (most often SUVs or trucks, more clearance to work) in the hope of recovering the small amount of platinum they contain. Platinum is considerably more scarce than copper, and they keep finding new (ab)uses for it to make it even more scarce.
I guess you could call all this theft "pre-cycling"? *snicker*
How about they not immigrate illegally and then steal copper? Seriously, WTF.
Hah. Here is how you solve that problem.
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/ME.html
12 gauge slugs to the tires and engine block of the truck will not only stop their thefts, but send a clear message to the criminals in the area to fuck off.
---- Liquid was a patriot ----
Well, if we start labeling everything terrorism, maybe we'll get over our national obsession with it sooner and pols won't be able to manipulate us so easily by using that word.
I have a better idea, find a more productive way for these individuals to make money. Ripping up copper is hard, and often dangerous work that pays for shit. Considering that these people are willing to do hard work for shitty pay, lets give them a job installing copper instead of tearing it down.
Yes, there's some portion of society that's unemployable. Convicted criminals, drug addicts, etc. So what? If we don't provide them alternatives, they will do what they have to do to get by. This is a choice we have to make as a society. Do we lose more by providing jobs to the unreliable, or by allowing them to rob us blind?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
What "fucked up" system are you talking about?
The one where money earns money faster than labor can. The one where a minimum wage worker can be fired for being 10 minutes late one day, but the CEO that drives his company into the ground gets millions of dollars in bonuses. The one that incarcerates a greater proportion of its population than any other country in the world. If you haven't noticed how fucked up America is, you simply haven't been paying attention.
Yes, people are responsible for their own actions. But they don't act in a vacuum. Nobody would choose to steal copper from a live power station if they had other alternatives. We can either give them alternatives, or we can watch this kind of criminal behavior continue. That's our choice as a society, and we're going to have to live with the consequences. Which would be least costly?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
When legal, the drugs become a lot cheaper. Also when legal, drug use is less of a barrier to employment. It's really pretty simple.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
How old are these "kids"? And in a society where infrastructure has been broken down for a few years and education is likely to be spotty, this is "ignorant" not "stupid." Stupid is what the american people are: because they have every opportunity to learn shit like this and do not. The actions of someone who never had a chance to know something is dangerous are not "stupid."
first off, i highly doubt that the average copper thief is going to have access to a metal foundry where they can melt their stolen copper. what's more likely to happen is that after they've collected a few hundred lbs of material they'll try to offload it to a scrap metal dealer immediately. professional thieves don't like to hold onto stolen property. and twenty-thousand-dollars worth of copper is going to be much harder to hide than twenty-thousand-dollars worth of gold or diamonds.
secondly, if law enforcement can use metallurgic analysis to determine the exact batch of bullets a particular round came from, then i'm sure they could apply the same techniques to other metals. so even if the copper thieves had an underground metal foundry to melt down the copper they stole, there'd still be evidence of where it came from. and it's got nothing to do with each atom having a fingerprint.
Knives and hacksaws are relativley common for substation thieves. Apparentley they think that their rubber soled shoes and rubber gloves can keep them safe against 115kV. Sometimes it does, but when it does not...it is ugly.
There's a simple way to deal with this. Up the voltage, and the problem becomes self-fixing. And it's not like those idiots can claim that nobody told them it was dangerous: high-voltage substations are well-signed already.
"Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
MMMmmm...
I have an alternative view.
People may be assholes, but perhaps, just perhaps...they are also hungry, powerless and do not see what the value is in our society profuse with avarice and greed.
If you had family with nothing like I saw this Thanksgiving year, and saw all of the huge sums of money being manipulated by very powerful people on the news on a day to day basis, I might steal copper too.
Something to think about this holiday season.
-Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
While you're busy appealing to people's emotions, I'll do the same.
People may be good hearted, but perhaps, just perhaps... they are drug addicts, desperate for a fix and do not see the value of getting a job and working for money like the rest of society.
In my experience, the good people who are victims are NOT the ones robbing and vandalizing for money. The ones who are responsible for crime are the ones who couldn't give two shits about mugging a homeless guy for his change cup.
People may be assholes, but perhaps, just perhaps...they are also hungry, powerless and do not see what the value is in our society profuse with avarice and greed.
People like you give bleeding heart liberals a bad name. Please stop.
Just callin' it like I see it.
They had the opportunity and motive to learn that copper was something worthwhile to steal. Why did they not have the opportunity and motive to learn what electricity did? Surely they noticed that when the kid down the street got electrocuted, the electricity they used for things like cooking, TV, and hat have you went out.
You think these people don't know what electricity is, what it does, and where it comes from? Get real. What 5-year-old doesn't know what an electric shock feels like?
This is just stupid behavior. And yes, I'm also referring to your wanton American bashing.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
"I heard a story awhile back about a couple of copper thieves that got what they had coming."
Ya, because stealing copper should be punished by death.
Nah, that term is reserved for throwing clogs.
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. -- Harlan Ellison
Except spending two hours stealing $200 worth of copper and driving it across town to the scrap dealer/fence means they're making well over 10x per hour what they'd make installing the same copper.