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Persistence Pays Off With Israel's First Windows Refund

Posted by timothy on from the paving-the-way dept.

As Niv Lilian reports at Ynet News, Haifa (and the Haifa Linux Club)'s Zvi Devir just preferred to run Linux rather than the pre-installed Windows on his newly bought Dell computer, and didn't want to pay for the unwanted Windows system. Now Devir has prevailed, after a fight in Israeli small-claims court, to become the first Israeli to obtain a Windows refund (also in Hebrew), winning the $137 that Windows added to the cost of his machine and escaping the nondisclosure agreement that Dell had wanted him to abide by as a condition. Perhaps others will follow his lead. Update: 12/03 23:02 GMT by T : Zvi Devir wrote with an update: "BTW, the settlement was out of court, before any court sessions took place."

51 of 84 comments (clear)

  1. Excellent. by Anton+Styles · · Score: 1

    That's a great precedent.

    --
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
    1. Re:Excellent. by Sun · · Score: 1

      And it wouldn't have become a precedent even had it gone to court, because it was a small claims court. Still, as far as the impact on the VENDORS, it is a precedent, which is, arguably, the important bit. Shachar

  2. The Gates Are Now Open by toodeepforme · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Oh god, I am seriously fearing the flood that is to come. This will set a precedent(if only a small one), that could change the way computers are sold, as well as if windows will be considered "standard" software for much longer.

    1. Re:The Gates Are Now Open by corsec67 · · Score: 1

      What, you think getting a refund for a Windows license is new?

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
    2. Re:The Gates Are Now Open by Aphoxema · · Score: 1

      Oh god, I am seriously fearing the flood that is to come. This will set a precedent(if only a small one), that could change the way computers are sold, as well as if windows will be considered "standard" software for much longer.

      In Israel.

      --
      "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
    3. Re:The Gates Are Now Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why are you fearing that? Why should windows be considered "standard" software? Not all of us want to run windows on our computers so why should we be required to pay for a windows license as part of the cost of a new computer? Particularly an OEM license that we can't legally use on any other hardware?

      If the cost of a windows license bundled with a new computer is $150 then why not sell machines at the normal price and allow the user to choose to get a machine with windows pre-installed, adding $150 to the cost?

    4. Re:The Gates Are Now Open by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Well yes. But if one thing is true of Israelis, it's that they do not give half a shit about copyright. The ones who don't actually want to run Linux will all claim Windoze refunds so they can install Windows with the pirate disk they bought at the market.

      If the Israeli courts keep requiring that these refunds be issued, suddenly you will see all of Israel "running Linux".

    5. Re:The Gates Are Now Open by erroneus · · Score: 1

      Yes, it might last longer than 40 days and 40 nights... ;)

    6. Re:The Gates Are Now Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "This will set a precedent(if only a small one), that could change the way computers are sold" - yes, the windows will be sold the same way as with Asus EEE - i.e. preinstalled, without any EULA to be read and agreed on.

    7. Re:The Gates Are Now Open by jhantin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because the license costs a high volume OEM about $60 and they bundle -$70 worth of free trial crapware that only runs under Windows, so the Windows license comes at no cost to you and the OEM makes an extra $10 in the bargain. That's why a Linux box and a Windows box price out the same in practice.

      --
      ...when you're writing a game...tweak the difficulty of "Easy" to something [your mother] can cope with. -- onion2k
    8. Re:The Gates Are Now Open by SWroclawski · · Score: 1

      And it wasn't new when I wrote the article...

    9. Re:The Gates Are Now Open by toodeepforme · · Score: 1

      Because in my opinion, most of the people who buy computers with windows preloaded are exactly the type of people that would choose it anyway, because face it. Most technically literate people, at least that I have met, have either bought standard high end machines, or have built their own, and installed whatever OS they please. And in regard to the belief that windows is not user friendly, and relatively easy to learn, it was my experience screwing around with Win. 98 that got me into computers, which did more for me than Mac did(which also played with, but for some reason Win. was more appealing to me. So basically, Windows is considered "standard" because people technically literate enough to pick and choose what OS they want are not generally the people who will buy a "standard" pc in the first place.

    10. Re:The Gates Are Now Open by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      If you actually compare like to like, Dell is charging $608 for the following Linux machine vs. $669 if you buy with Vista installed. Now, the windows version comes with works, but the ubuntu version either comes with OO.org or it's just an apt-get away (or applications|add/remove).

      Granted, you could get OO.org for he windows version too, but that presumes that Works, which can read some Office documents and writes.. rtf (only, I think) has value. Also, it appears that "no monitor" and Intel Celeron processor are not options offered with ubuntu, for what that's worth.

      Dell Inspiron 530
      PROCESSOR
                      Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad processor Q6600 (8MB L2, 2.4GHz, 1066FSB)
      OPERATING SYSTEM
                      Ubuntu 8.04 with DVD Playback
      WARRANTY AND SERVICE
                      1Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty, InHome Service after Remote Diagnosis
      MONITORS
                      20 inch E207WFP Widescreen Digital Flat Panel â" Now Save $50
      MEMORY
                      2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 800MHz- 2DIMMs
      HARD DRIVE
                      320GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache(TM)
      OPTICAL DRIVE
                      16x DVD+/-RW Drive
      VIDEO CARD
                      Integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3100
      SOUND
                      Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
      KEYBOARD & MOUSE
                      Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse
      FLOPPY & MEDIA READER
                      No Floppy Drive Included

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    11. Re:The Gates Are Now Open by pcdisorder · · Score: 1

      I doubt this will be the case as most people click through the EULA without even knowing they are entering a contract (or caring) I addressed this issue in a blog post a few days ago here: http://www.pcdisorder.com/2008/12/no-means-no.html

      --
      Soluto - Mapping PC Frustrations one machine and one user at a time.
  3. Read the article. by CannonballHead · · Score: 4, Informative

    This doesn't have to do with Windows as much as it has to do with Dell.

    Basically, Dell said (in the EULA) that they would refund money if you don't agree to the terms. So that's what the guy did.

    If anything, this just shows how few people read license agreements than anything else. And shows that, once again, 'customer support' still stinks :)

  4. Not even implied by jDeepbeep · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nowhere in this summary does it say he is a Jew. Just pointing out the obvious. There is a difference between the terms 'Israeli' and 'Jew'

    --
    Reply to That ||
    1. Re:Not even implied by idontgno · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well true, but all humans are cheap and like to avoid paying for anything anyway.

      There, corrected that for you.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    2. Re:Not even implied by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Well, according to Wikipedia 76% of the population of Israel is Jewish. So while there is a difference between "Israeli" and "Jew", it's not a particularly large difference.

    3. Re:Not even implied by Locke2005 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      With a name like "Zvi Devir" and a home in Haifa, I think there's a good chance he's not Catholic! That being said, he should be called an Israeli, not a Jew.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    4. Re:Not even implied by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sure there is no label on this that says "Jew", however, based on contextual evidence can conclude that the person responsible for this likely practices Judaism.

      Since you want to talk statistics, 37% of Israelis are atheist or agnostic. That suggests to me that they don't "practice" Judaism at least in a religious, worship the supernatural way, although many may identify culturally/ethnically with Judaism and still maintain their traditionally Jewish lifestyles, ethical values, and heritage.

    5. Re:Not even implied by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 5, Insightful

      He might be a Jew by birth, but Israel is a suprisingly secular state, compared to what an uninformed person might think (considering the fact that it was the religion that held the Jewish population together in the past millenia). And a substantial percentage of citizens of Israel do not practice Judaism the way their ancestors did. Perhaps this has something to do with the views of the founders of their state?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    6. Re:Not even implied by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, I'd say a 24% chance of being wrong is a pretty large difference.

    7. Re:Not even implied by blind+biker · · Score: 3, Informative

      You are absolutely right. However, may I note that Zvi is a very traditional Jewish male name. It means "deer".

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    8. Re:Not even implied by HateBreeder · · Score: 1

      no, it literally is "deer" (the animal).

      --
      Sigs are for the weak.
    9. Re:Not even implied by dintech · · Score: 1

      Except with a Jewish name (Eli) and a previous comments in his history stating that he's Jewish, I'm sure his prospective employers will get the joke. I'm British and so I get to make joke about strereotypes such as teeth and queueing. It's one of the few perks...

    10. Re:Not even implied by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Uhm, they have been living in that area for many centuries when the Palestinian Arabs first came.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    11. Re:Not even implied by anotherdjohnson · · Score: 1

      It is very interesting that you would say it was "stolen" from the Palestinians. First of all there was not Palestinian state, the land was part of the Ottoman empire which was dissolved.

      Was it stolen from the people that lived there at the time, perhaps. However, you can't blame just the British and the Israelis alone, NONE of the arab nations wanted anything to do with the Palestinians, and still don't!

  5. Isn't that a Macintosh? by argent · · Score: 5, Funny

    The laptop in the stock photo for the article sure looks like didn't come with Windows in the first place.

    1. Re:Isn't that a Macintosh? by slakdrgn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What's even more funny is the guy in that picture looks a lot like Wil Wheaton.

    2. Re:Isn't that a Macintosh? by negative3 · · Score: 1

      It looks like one, but it's not one of hte white Intel Macbooks - the ports are slightly different. My macbook has on the left side: power, ethernet, mini-dvi, firewire, usb, usb, mic, headphone, lock. And no fan ports - those are hidden by the screen hinge. It looks like a decent attempt at a knock-off though.

      --
      "Physics is to math what sex is to masturbation." - Richard Feynman
    3. Re:Isn't that a Macintosh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      It's more than a "decent attempt at a knockoff"; that's an iBook, which can't even run Windows except via some messy emulation.

    4. Re:Isn't that a Macintosh? by cerberusss · · Score: 1

      If you think that guy looks like Wil Wheaton, then I'm looking like Mother Theresa.

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    5. Re:Isn't that a Macintosh? by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      Cute boy...

    6. Re:Isn't that a Macintosh? by 68kmac · · Score: 1

      It looks like one, but it's not one of hte white Intel Macbooks

      It's a 12" iBook G4

    7. Re:Isn't that a Macintosh? by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Take it as a compliment. Mother Theresa is totally sexy.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  6. And parent skimped on glasses by Zsub · · Score: 1

    Read again, where does it say the person in question is a Jew?

    1. Re:And parent skimped on glasses by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My name sounds Jewish enough as well, and in spite of that, it is not enough for me to be a Jew. If his mother was not a Jew and he was not raised as one, which is possible, he is not considered a Jew, at least not from the traditional Judaistic point of view. Of course, there were people with different opinions as to what makes a person a Jew, but fortunately, they lost (not only) the argument. :-)

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  7. Re:blablabla by Fuzzzy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ALL the anonymous cowards are so dumb.

  8. What about the manufacturers? by aliquis · · Score: 1

    When I mailed and asked some time, probably to Microsoft though, may had been a bad idea, I got the impression that one wouldn't be able to return only Windows but would have to return the whole machine.

    Rather obvious that Microsoft would prefer it that way but ..

    Is this true? Makes somewhat reasonable sense for the manufacturer to be able to set up rules like that.

    1. Re:What about the manufacturers? by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 2, Informative

      Depends what country you're in, probably.
      Canada and the US have laws against bundling - requiring the purchase of one product to purchase another product.

      So the manufacturer can't require you to buy Windows if you buy the computer hardware.

      How it is in other countries, I have no idea.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    2. Re:What about the manufacturers? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      So when are we going to have lawsuits about not getting the specific CPU or hard disk that you want when you buy a computer? Wheres my refund for just the disk? Just how stupid is this pick-and-choose going to get?

    3. Re:What about the manufacturers? by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      The hardware is made/assembled by the same company (in theory. I know this doesn't happen.)
      There is an obvious delineation between software and hardware, and it's made by a different company.

      Besides, you can frequently specify what CPU and hard disk you want, even with big retailers like Dell, HP and the like.
      You can't specify that you don't want Windows. At least, not in any way that doesn't require significant digging on their website.

      There's also the problem that the hardware is yours to do with as you please after you've bought it. You can buy a Dell desktop, use it for a month, and then strip parts out and sell them if you want.

      The software, you have to agree to draconian licence agreements before you even use it, one of which is, you can't separate it from the computer. This licence agreement also states that if you don't agree, you can return it for a refund.

      They brought it on themselves. I have no sympathy.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
  9. It's a witch! by mangu · · Score: 1

    But the bird certainly looks like a duck. Also, he goes to the pond and you notice that he swims like a duck. Then he opens his beak and quacks like a duck.

    Does this bird weigh as much as a duck?

  10. Somebody tag it by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    Somebody tag it "OY VEY!".

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  11. Re:Ever Notice? by BlackSnake112 · · Score: 1

    So Timothy == CmdrTaco?

  12. Good on him, and boo to Dell by blind+biker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...for trying to wiggle out of their contractual agreement. Now, I'm not sure a click-through EULA is in fact a contract, but then that's DELLs to decide. Either it is or it isn't.

    --
    "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
  13. This Is Wonderful But . . . by LuYu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am of course overjoyed at the fact that there is someone who managed not to be forced to pay for Windows, but I still have to ask this question: Did Dell take the loss or did MS?

    Aside from saving money, refusing to grant an undesirable vendor money is another reason to refuse a purchase. If Dell still paid MS, then MS is still insulated from market forces. How can customers choose against MS if MS gets paid even when those customers do not purchase MS software?

    I hope the next time this happens, Dell will supply a written document certifying that it has refused payment to MS for the copy in question.

    --
    All data is speech. All speech is Free.
  14. What's faster than a speeding bullet? by nog_lorp · · Score: 1

    A Jew with a coupon! /iamajew

  15. No details, either by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 1

    This doesn't have to do with Windows as much as it has to do with Dell.

    Basically, Dell said (in the EULA) that they would refund money if you don't agree to the terms. So that's what the guy did.

    If anything, this just shows how few people read license agreements than anything else. And shows that, once again, 'customer support' still stinks :)

    The article is also basically devoid of any details regarding the methodology. There wasn't even anything at the Haifa Linux Club web site about it. It looks like since the arrival of Vista-infected machines, the old methods for Windows Refund need updating.

    The club at least could make some noise and show the new steps to the dance. Many will be buying new computers in the coming weeks and could use the extra 150 USD / EUR

    --
    Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
  16. Not necessarily the first. by darkonc · · Score: 1

    Just the first that didn't accept Dell's NDA.

    --
    Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
  17. Foo! by jhantin · · Score: 1

    If you actually compare like to like, Dell is charging $608 for the following Linux machine vs. $669 if you buy with Vista installed.

    Touché. It's been some time since I last compared.

    --
    ...when you're writing a game...tweak the difficulty of "Easy" to something [your mother] can cope with. -- onion2k