Is There a Cyberwar, and Is the US Losing It?

kenblakely writes "BusinessWeek is running a story asserting that the 'US is Losing the Global Cyberwar.' This whole cyberwar thing has been discussed a few times on Slashdot where the Chinese are asserted to be using cyberwarfare to attain military superiority. And, of course, there is the whole Russia-Georgia thing. Even the US military is getting in on the action, and the fear of a cyber Pearl Harbor seems almost palpable. I'm curious what the Slashdot crowd thinks about the growing fascination with 'cyberwar': hype to get more money and create new force structure, source of the next world war, or somewhere in between?"

Comments

Cyberwar?

[kamikazearun]

There is no "cyberwar". BusinessWeek is losing it.

Re:Cyberwar?

[HungryHobo]

There is no cyberwar.

For the first time in human history a situation where people benefit from what is essentially anarchy has appeared in the form of the internet.

Despite the spam, the hackers and the botnets the internet has functioned extremely well without governments sticking their noses in. In the case of the hackers it's often the guys who were hacking in 10 years ago using the same knowledge to keep the next generation out.

The internet is not perfect but that's a technical problem to be solved by technical means.

Now that more people use it however governments around the world are trying to stick their noses in and so we need RULES and REGULATIONS and CONTROL.

If it ever came to any kind of digital attack on the US from china that went on and on and on and on and outweighted the financial benefits of having the connection to china at all it could all be solved by having a few hundred guys with axes knock out the various data pipes.

But it doesn't. We make more money by having a connection to china than we ever lose from attacks a hundred times over.
It's not war. it's petty theft/extortion and companies trying to get one up on each other.

Re:Cyberwar?

[MindKata]

"There is no "cyberwar". BusinessWeek is losing it."

Unfortunately the word "Cyberwar", when used by non-technical news companies, is often used to (wrongly) imply organized big scale attacks, as if its a military style war/attack. Its far more likely just mostly isolated young (and/or misguided older) hackers on all sides, having a go at hacking/annoying the opposing sides. Not much different from kids throwing stones at the other side, just the 21st century version of it.

But then we live in a time of media organized waves of ever more fear and paranoid, so things get blown up out of all proportion by them, (for their own gain). BusinessWeek is just playing along to the common theme of selling a story of fear and paranoid, to get peoples attention. Sadly this marketing/PR tactic works. Now people are discussing Cyberwar and in the process BusinessWeek is gaining greater attention. Its not about Cyberwar, its about BusinessWeek's need for attention.

I wish companies would stop playing this fear manipulation game, to get attention. But then I guess all the time this method works, they will keep exploiting it, for their own gain ... so we have to keep enduring this constant background misinformation static noise.

Re:Cyberwar?

[darkmeridian]

If you read the article you'd understand there is a cyber war and it isn't just script kiddies or digital anarchists attacking secure computer systems. Secure NASA systems were rooted by a guy who sent 30 gigabytes of data to a location in Taiwan, where it probably was sent to China. That's not anarchy; it's an attempt to steal confidential data. And so it goes. A hacker got spyware onto a joint government/Lockheed system and stole some info there, but no one knows how much data was stolen.

There may be attacks that are pointless, but that doesn't mean there aren't highly targeted attacks meant to steal confidential information about space missions just as the world is re-entering the Space Race (China going to space, Indians to the moon, Americans to the moon and Mars, etc.)

Re:Cyberwar?

[MindKata]

"governments around the world are trying to stick their noses"

I totally agree with this. The governments are stoking fears and the media are playing along, as they can use fear stories to sell more media. This Cyberwar story has been brewing for months in the media, now the governments are brewing it up to the point they can start to bring in controls, to help save us all from this "growing problem", as they so often call these kinds of manipulation stunts.

Its not so much the governments and media are working together. Its more a symbiotic like relationship, where media and governments both feed us with the same stories, for their own gain. The media gain attention and so more sales with fear stories, while the politicians gain greater power, to control others. Of course, the extra control we are told, is to help us all escape the fears they keep telling us about.

Its a disturbingly insidious feedback loop thats emerging between large scale corporate media organizations and ever better political manipulation techniques ... so how long before the companies start offering to sell governments "solutions" to this problem. Then they can all get rich quick, setting up new government departments and expanding others etc..

Re:Cyberwar?

[Sun.Jedi]

Secure NASA systems were rooted by a guy who sent 30 gigabytes of data to a location in Taiwan, where it probably was sent to China.

1. The NASA boxen weren't 'secure'. No box is secure while connected to the public internet.

2. Maybe critical, life-or-death, classified, Really Important Stuff (tm) shouldn't be on the internet? Seems to me they should stop trying to pound that square peg into the round hole on this one and (re)build their own damn network where they control all the access points, instead of taking ours.

If the nitwits in the Govt/Military would understand and accept those two points, minimally, there would less instances of '30gb of top secret NASA data was sent to Taiwan', and less reason for anyone to even bother cyberwar-ing for National defense (or offense). This whole 'lets save some $$$ by leveraging the Internet' isn't working out too well for them.

Corporate attacks/espionage however would still be fair game, but that's the risk corporations must assess for themselves. The .gov/.mil shouldn't even have to make that assessment because they shouldn't be here in the first place.

Re:Cyberwar?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe, maybe not.

Try to remember one big thing here: There's Knowledge, then there's Downtime. When you're attacking eBay or Amazon, the goal is downtime, since eBay loses money every second they're offline and will pay you handsomely to get their connectivity back.

However, when your target is the pentagon, downtime isn't the goal. China has nothing to gain from taking the US defense network down, nor does Russia nor anyone else, because their own systems rely too heavily on the internet, just as ours do, and at the end of the day, a certain core portion of the net is still under US DoD control (several million IPs, in fact). If, however, the Chinese could manage to get the chemical formula or metallurgy or whatnot for the armor on an Abrams tank, that's worth a LOT to them. After all, China can mass produce just about anything they can dream up, but China is in modern days what Russia was during the cold war - twice the factories and half the big brains of the US. Indeed, many have said that the US acquiring Von Braun after WWII may have cost Russia the cold war more than any other single man or machine ever did. Now, if the Chinese could simply hack our brains - or at least hack what our various scientists have come up with - then they would have both the technological edge and production edge in any future real-world war. The US DoD's strategy revolves solely around every 1 US soldier being the equal of 3, 4, 5, or even 100 enemy soldiers. Without the technological edge we currently have, that strategy falls apart in a hurry. Now, if you imagine the combined threat of a technological superiority or equality with a complete economic Embargo with little or no warning, China has the ability to own us overnight without firing a single shot. This is why a single hacker in the modern world is worth 1,000 riflemen.

So yes, a cyberwar is no doubt raging and it is important, but nobody wants to take down anyone's network. The goal is to pinpoint a single, hard to patch weakness and exploit it by gathering as much data from that weakness as possible, not to denial of service everything off the net.

Re:Cyberwar?

[Talderas]

There's a reason why you run two networks in a location. You have an isolated from the Internet network which all your classified/important info is kept on, and the "public" network which has access to the Internet for those reference purposes. There's no circumstance that would warrant connecting those Top Secret servers to the Internet, patches can be downloaded and places on removable media (the need of patches is debatable anyway if most patches are just addressing security flaws). You put in and enforce a policy of disabling removable media on all machines connected to the private network.

Simple, secure.

let me get thsi straight

[ionix5891]

they are worried about chineese hackers but are not worried about china owning most of the US and buying out banks?

source of the next world war

[PinkyDead]

That may be correct - but what would they do? Destroy the economy using computers? We do seem to be doing that rather well without the need for any outside help.

How could we tell?

[DoofusOfDeath]

With Pearl Harbor, the civilians living in Hawaii could see the smoking ships and Japanese bombers. Newspaper reporters could do interviews.

With cyber-warfare, none of the relevant parties will typically admit what's going on. It's also hard to know whom to counter-attack.
- Attack source locations can be spoofed.
- (Relatively) innocent people's computers can be taken over and used in an attack.
- Victims are often unwilling to admit they've been attacked.
- Unlike Pearl Harbor, the attack can be perpetrated by jerky private citizens or criminal organizations within (or across) a country. It's always been hard to decide whether or not to hold a country's government responsible for that country's criminals. (For example, terrorists trained in Pakistan, or suicide bombers trained in Iran.)

And for some reason, the U.S. government often takes a surprisingly passive role when China acts aggressively towards it. So we're unlikely to see the U.S. government hold a press conference showing evidence that China has been intentionally attacking U.S. business and military networks. Not that we'd believe a statement like that until January 21, 2009 anyway.

Idiotic

[Surreal Puppet]

The "masses of probes" are just normal automated botnet attacks, and the "unidentified attacks" are probably just unwashed masses of skiddies. If you want me to believe that a real cyberwar (in this case more aptly named "computer espionage") is up and going you better give me or assure me that you have some sort of evidence (like captured transmissions showing that the attackers know what they are looking for in terms of intercepted/exfiltrated data) showing that you're actually being attacked by foreign governments or skilled people with an actual terrorist agenda. There is nothing in TFA except buzzwords, hyperbole and "x declined to comment".

We would never know

[meist3r]

Really, if there was actually a Cyberwar going on the last people to admit to it was the US.

Bombs....

[vvaduva]

Can the Chinese traceroute laser guided bombs away from their datacenters? The people with the most bombs usually win...

And re: Chinese investments in the U.S. - should China go to war with us, they will be screwed...all the paper debt they've created with the United States will become a clean slate; thanks for the free money suckers!

Hmm, they really don't have to.

[CrypticSpawn]

Like Ionix says, it is Economic Warfare we are fighting. When a big chunk of your land is owned by Japan, when your harbours are own by the Saudis, when your banks are owned by China, and where your government pushes you down the path of least resistance; educationally, and technologically. It is very easy to try to find something else for the situation we are in, but frankly, good ole' greed will allow you to become a slave, way before you realize you have become one.

It's not a binary either/or

[daveschroeder]

BOTH are happening. And it's not just "Chinese hackers". It is a concerted, organized, long-term effort supported through the highest levels of Chinese government to control the information landscape as a tool for superiority over the United States. We've talked about how China is planning to use technology to leapfrog its foes militarily -- including the United States -- and Chinese doctrine on Information Warfare makes this no secret. There are financial concerns, and there are very real concerns about the information realm as well. Human interaction is based on the dissemination, exchange, and interpretation of information. It's not just "hackers" or "cyberwar"; information warfare is much bigger, and it IS happening. This is important enough that a previous comment of mine on this issue bears repeating here:

"Information Warfare" (IW), sometimes called Information Operations (IO), spans several arenas, from the purely technical to the social and psychological. The goals and missions of IO and intelligence in general, particularly against and within non-free societies, will constantly be at odds with the democratic nature of the United States and the West. Even so, the United States currently doesn't appear to acknowledge the scope of the information campaigns China has executed against it. China's motives are strategic rather than tactical in nature; that is, they do not necessarily serve any direct or immediate specific purpose, but rather serve to create influence in its own favor over long periods of time. For this reason, many in the US see China as something of a misunderstood ally, while China simultaneously builds out its military capability.

While cyber warfare is now routinely considered in various analyses of China and other nations, the larger question of why China is so diligently pursuing this path is overlooked. China's activities in this realm are assumed to be part of a natural technological progression. However, a study of literature examining China's efforts in Information Warfare viewed against the backdrop of the importance of the Information Revolution which is sweeping the globe paints a picture of a nation looking to the information realm as a critical and key mechanism to modernize its military capabilities. Similar to how the Industrial Revolution ushered in a new era and greatly enhanced nations' abilities to wage war, the Information Revolution again could change the face of conflict. China's motivations for expanding its cyber warfare capabilities against the United States may transcend that of simple technological evolution, and warrant a deeper examination. Why, then, can China be expected to expand its Information Warfare capabilities, particularly with respect to the United States?

The US Army War College's Strategic Studies Institute encapsulates these findings in one simple thought: to China's leadership, it could mean a pathway to modernization that would obviate the need for costly and time-consuming interim modernization. "IW offers opportunities to win wars without the traditional clash of arms" (Yoshihara 2001). Indeed, China appears to be focused on the notion of such asymmetric warfare. Yoshihara (2001) goes on to explore the current state of Chinese IW and IO philosophy. The focus of Chinese theoreticians appears squarely focused on the possibility of IW offering China a decisive option to defeat a superior adversary by crippling its command and control capabilities. Moreover, Yoshihara (2001) notes that some Chinese military scholars consider the notion of victory without conventional battle; not only via disabling information-based attacks in the electronic realm, but even via more subtle psychological operations (PSYOP) designed to alter and shape an adversary's thinking.

Part of China's motivations for the intense focus on the information realm stems from China's fascination with recent conflicts driven by information. China witnessed the decisive US tactical victory in the

Re:It's not a binary either/or

[daveschroeder]

Yes, the Chinese military has decided exactly this, and it's been in Chinese doctrine for a decade. It's clear in Chinese military publications, and even a cursory literature review of Chinese journals finds a consistent message: China can defeat superior enemies by utilizing information warfare against information dependent-states, particularly the United States, and it must have a diligent, long-term view to do it successfully.

If China spends 15 years shaping American public opinion -- including that of politicians in power, or who come to power -- that military conflict with China must be avoided at all costs, even in a scenario where China invades Taiwan, has the goal not been accomplished? If China is able to temporarily blind US command and control to give it enough time to become entrenched in a symbolic region, has the goal not been accomplished?

China believes it, and China has embraced the idea of using principles of information warfare -- from long-term PSYOP, to public relations, to coordinated computer attack, to "useful idiots" without any government affiliation doing the Party's bidding for the "good of China" -- to skip the full extent of the costly and painful military-industrial modernization it would take to counter an adversary like the US in a conventional war.

I give you .... rule 36

[zappepcs]

Rule 36 states:

"There will always be even more fucked up shit than what you just saw"

Clearly, if you can imagine it, someone is probably trying to do it or has done it. Cyber Warefare, like Web 2.0, is a bloated term with multiple meanings. The trouble is that when you dismiss it because it is not like some famous battle of WWII, you risk falling foul of it through inaction, lack of preparation, and lazy security.

This is the 'new cold war' and they won't cut the wires because without them the USA could not spy on China. Silly boy. It's not just about money, it's about control. In international negotiations a little extra information is always good and the USA will be trying to collect as much of it as anyone else will. period. no exceptions.

Lately there has been a bit more in the news where 'cyber warfare' has been used to demonize the Chinese among others. I think this is not so different from the build up of bad PR we saw against Iraq and now Iran. Looking at the collective picture I think that the news we hear is propaganda and that the part we hear is what the government wants us to hear. We hear 'warfare' 'China is bad' etc. What we SHOULD hear is "The US is engaged in technological spying techniques, and in our efforts we have noticed that the Chinese also do this". You should also hear that "Any dirty technique you can think of with computers: We're trying those, but those damned Chinese have ruined it for us, they are forcing everyone to use RedFlag Linux and we have no back door in that OS".

Expect new 'kernel patches' soon and complete Chinese language updates as well.

Yes and No

[boyfaceddog]

Yes, there is undoubtedly a 'cyberwar' of some kind somewhere. It is most likely being fought by one group of 'intelligence' people against another group of 'intelligence' people.

In other words, there is no war, just a bunch of cyber-spooks playing spy.

Oh, they want more money, too.

Espionage

[TheLink]

"Secure NASA systems were rooted by a guy who sent 30 gigabytes of data to a location in Taiwan,"

That's not war, that's the usual espionage. Happens all the time.

If it's really anything warlike, the US would make an announcement that China should stop messing about if they know what's good for them.

If that doesn't work, then they would be starting military exercises off the coast of Japan, with the usual aircraft carriers, fleet etc.

So all that talk about cyberwar is just propaganda and bullshit.

Re:Espionage

[TheLink]

What do you mean by "just espionage"?

You can believe the propaganda if you want. I'm just pointing the correct terms.

If you have an espionage problem you don't usually fix it by going to war.

Countries execute spies every now and then, and people die in car/plane crashes etc.

As you should see the US is not going to war with China over espionage. They are using it as a propaganda opportunity though :).

The US is not going to war with its allies either, they spy on the US and the US spies on them all the time.

Maybe the US people like wars so much and thus only see things in those terms - War or not war.

And that's why they have "war against drugs", "war against terror", "war against cancer", "war against obesity".

Re:Espionage

[Neumann]

You honestly think that there are no US friendly computer experts probing the chinese systems with the intent to discover what the Chinese know and selling that information to the US?

dude

[circletimessquare]

my tin foil hat says "made in china" on the side

should i worry?

Cry me a river

[toby]

1. Build inferior, insecure platform on shaky technological underpinnings
2. Cheat, bribe, lie and threaten your way to 97% market share
3. One company profits!!!!
4. Lose cyberwar
5. Oops

Re:(OMG) "Pearl Harbor" (LOL)

[hardburn]

I'd presume he's talking about the US embargo of oil sales to the Empire of Japan after they invaded French Indochina, which prompted the attack.

Somehow, I think not selling oil to an imperialist power noted for raping villiges is one of the least bad things the US has ever done.