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Microsoft Knew About Xbox 360 Damaging Discs
Kelly writes "An unsealed document in a Washington lawsuit filed last week at Seattle, Microsoft was well aware that the Xbox 360 was prone to damaging game discs even before the console was introduced in November 2005. Microsoft had three solutions for solving the issue, but all three solutions were rejected due to technical concerns or on the basis of cost. Microsoft settled on a cost-free fourth solution: a warning was added to Xbox 360 manual, which essentially placed the blame on users instead of the hardware." The scratching-disks problem was mentioned a few years back, too. I wonder whether more people would prefer a slight discount on the price of a console to the ability to reorient it while a disk was playing inside.
The motion says that Microsoft knew that when the Xbox 360 was reoriented with a disc playing inside, the disc could be damaged.
I gotta side with Microsoft on this one.
An xbox 360 is not something you pop a battery and headphones into and take jogging. If Microsoft can be sued over this, who's to say that they couldn't go after every other stationary tray-loading spinning-disc-player manufacturer? Sony, Dell, Philips, NEC, you're next! Even laptop(remember, laptops are designed to be portable) owners wouldn't tilt theirs 90 degrees sideways while spinning a disc.
a warning was added to Xbox 360 manual, which essentially placed the blame on users instead of the hardware."
No. Vista's UAC is shifting blame on the user. The warning in the manual is merely a well-intentioned courtesy reminder which calls into question the perceived intelligence and common sense of its users. They might as well have included a warning like, "Do not drop into bathtub".
If you don't like the way your 360 sits then put down the pizza slice, wipe the snauce off of your fingers, properly shut down the console, carefully reorient it as desired, then power it back on and resume gaming. I know it takes a few more seconds than just toppling it over with one hand while Gearing-of-War wtih the other, but the extra effort will be worth it. Trust me on this one.
I have a little light on my dashboard that is labeled "Check Engine". Ostensibly it is supposed to turn on when an excess of O2 is detected in the car's emissions. However, it also seems to turn on just about every 20K miles or so. It costs $400 to turn off.
Is this "feature" by design? Or is it a bug?
Those MS fans with modpoints will be busy today. What with the recent news about websites actively infecting PCs through known IE vulnerabilities and now this, there will be so many postings that show MS in a bad light to mod down.
Get going boys!
Fixed that for /.
Whether or not there is some sort of god, I'm not supposed to say/god is a word and the argument ends there-Smog
Step 1: Sell discs.
Step 2: Pay lawmakers to make it illegal to copy discs.
Step 3: Make a machine that damages discs, forcing users to buy replacement discs.
Step 4: Profit!
Fricking seedy. If I'm buying the media, I should be able to do whatever the hell I want with it. If I'm buying the data, they should replace the media for free. They can't have it both ways.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Apparently a $0.50 component would have sorted out all these problems... I'm aware that after a lot of sales this translates into profit, but seriously... this is a very short-sighted corner to cut.
An xbox 360 is not something you pop a battery and headphones into and take jogging. If Microsoft can be sued over this, who's to say that they couldn't go after every other stationary tray-loading spinning-disc-player manufacturer? Sony, Dell, Philips, NEC, you're next! Even laptop(remember, laptops are designed to be portable) owners wouldn't tilt theirs 90 degrees sideways while spinning a disc.
But laptops are also designed to suspend when you close a lid - and I hate to break it to you but there are plenty of times I have shifted a laptop around substantially while burning a disc. Usually that worked out just fine.
Furthermore, laptop users hardly ever even use discs - either you use it once to load software, or you are burning a disc where the cost of failure is that you have to burn another $0.10 disc. Not quite the same as having a console where failure means you are out $60... and you almost always have a disc in the drive even if you are often doing things on Live instead of playing the game disc you have inserted.
The 360 is, like it or not, a consumer electronic device - and that means it needs to be robust, to where almost no use of it outside the extremes can cause failure. Simply moving a console while it's on is not that extreme, nor if you look at a lot of people's gaming setups is it even that uncommon. Blaming users for thinking it's a device like others they are used to instead of a delicate piece of computer equipment that will brook no touching while in operation, is an absurd accusation.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Consoles are handled by kids and non-technical minded people. If you use it as a DVD player, then paying extra for MS's disc replacement program won't help you too much when your DVDs get scratched. MS should have included the extra precautions to keep the discs safe.
Does anyone know if any of these problems were responsible in any way for drive failures that caused the "disc read error" message?
Twinstiq, game news
This is plain bullshit.
Any modern tray loading CD drive clamps the disc between the spindle and a bearing in the top of the case. This disc is suspended several millimeters away from any solid surface. Short of creating enormous G-force on the disc by rotating the drive at a high level of acceleration, the worst you would expect from your average cheap-ass tray loading drive is to scratch the very outer edge of the disc where there isn't any data anyway. People with CD/DVD drives mounted in external USB cases move them around with discs in them all the time, and those drives weren't even designed with portable mounting in mind. When making a toy that is likely to be used by children who will knock it over, it doesn't seem unreasonable that Microsoft would include something along the level of the bottom end of the reliability spectrum rather than establishing a new low.
The only reason people are defending Microsoft on this is because they love their XBox, and they feel an irrational need to defend it in public lest it lose market share to a competitor's console.
Now to add to this, I have yet another reason not to ever buy one. And I'll print out a copy of the page and attach it to the wall in my son's room. He's not going to like it but thats the breaks.
You can find any number of reasons to justify or not justify a purchase of an Xbox 360. If you can't afford it, then sure, those are the breaks. That's one thing all kids have to come to terms with. But it sounds like you're trying to clutch for something else to give as a reason, because you simply don't want this hardware product in your house.
Unfortunately the PC games market is in a major decline, the wii is a gimmick, and the PS3 is a stark disappointment. If your son is going to play modern console games, and interact socially with his peers on that level, not to mention play online with them, he's going to want this console - and it won't be about the hardware, it will be about the titles.
Due to their incredible screwups, MS offer a reasonable out of the box warranty with 360s. The hardware is not a concern. If you son treats it like crap, that's his bag. If you can't afford it, man up and say so. If you simply don't want to buy him one, let him know that. Maybe he'll think you're being an ass. I'm not sure you're not, seems like a valid opinion to me. Honesty will bear you out, though.
The slot-loader is gentle on the disc,
While the Disc is playing, yes, while insert or ejecting, NO...
Slot loaders use rollers to grab the disc, and so many things can happen with this 'direct' contact.
- A dirty roller can scratch a disc rather easily, pitting it.
- A 'glossed' roller can fail to properly grab the disc and spin on the surface of the disc
- A user pushing against the disc when eject or pulled against when inserted will allow the rollers to rub the disc surfaces.
A good example is slot loaders in cars that get a lot of dirt and dust, CDs in the car take a lot of damage from slot loading players because of the rollers.
PS There are a few good ways to clean the rollers, and even de-gloss older rollers on slot loaders. If you have a car unit that fails to properly take or eject disc you can do a few things on the road even that will fix the problem.
- Get a Slot loader roller cleaner - rare, but around.
- Make your own.
Use a 'printable' silver CDR, (the printable side has a light texture). Apply alcohol or even spit if you are on the road to the printed side of the disc and insert it upside down. If necessary hold the CDR to force the rollers to 'spin' on the disc. The texture will clean and de-gloss the rollers. Repeat until it works.
You can also use a black matte CD Label on a CD to get the same effect, but the paper could pull off and jam in the unit, so only use for a light cleaning.
(Then again, what do I know? Microsoft did try to cut corners wherever possible to create the system as cheap as possible.)
Well not as much as Microsoft. The odds of a unit being flipped while a Disc is spinning happens how often to the average user? But aged or dirty rollers will start killing discs and have a shorter lifetime.
Do you honestly think this is stuff MS didn't consider? Do you honestly think MS couldn't have gotten a 'good' deal on a custom slot loader design if they thought it was the best?
Gamers tend to be less careful with their disc, borrow discs, and when high even insert discs with peanut butter and jelly on them. This destroys front loaders rather fast and adds to their ability to harm disc with just a bit of crusted dirt or PB&J on the roller, your discs may continue to work, but you are slowly pitting them, and if the roller 'spins' on the disc, you are getting scratches.
There may be a good front loader solution, but I have not seen it, as both sides of the Disc are vulnerable and a device that demands contact with it present a constant risk.
MS made what they thought was the right decision, with a lot of 'smart' people considering the pros and cons.
The documents only state the MS knew that moving or re-orienting an Xbox 360 while it was operating may scratch the disc. As for claims that the Xbox scratches discs while stable and vertical (while it may be true) does not apply to these specific documents.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
It's the American Way
You forgot gyroscopic force, which can be powerful enough to bend the disc as it turns, regardless of how it is clamped (CDs are flexible). It can then momentarily contact the front lens on the optical pickup, resulting in a scratch. Gyroscopic force is produced by the angular momentum of the spinning disc wanting to spin in the same plane while the axis is being rotated.
Some physicist will probably correct me on that, but I know it's a powerful force.
Putting moderation advice in your
Really? Is this what it's come to, /.? Seriously, re-read this:
"I own a 360 and have scracted a disk doing exactly what you are warned not to do."
followed by
"no 360 games were purchased in my household due to the state of anger I was holding towards Microsoft."
Are you KIDDING me?! I would tag this "asinine" were the option available.
You write that, but you know that neither this nor the OP is true. You see consoles selling in quantums of 199, 249, and 299. Any variation is set largely on customer perception. There is no slight increase in price to, say, 302. Console price has little to do with minor variations in parts costs.
If you really want to correct the OP, then talk about the profit margin. In that case, the customer doesn't care.
I can't believe that I'm seeing people here blame end users for this problem.
Consumers are now acting more like battered wives than ever before. Blame yourself - you are the problem...it can't possibly be the manufacturer's fault.
My car has a DVD player that CONSTANTLY moves around while it is playing - rough roads, fast corners, hard braking - the works.....and guess what - it has never scratched a disc - EVER.
Why can't one of the richest technology companies in the world figure out what cut-rate Chinese electronics manufacturers figured out years ago?
-ted
If manufacturers are going to treat customers as beta testers, and hide from them when the product fails, there are only two recourses, and I recommend both: stop buying the company's product, and file a class-action lawsuit.
Even if it is fashionable to claim it, Capitalism does not mean "cheat the people".
Rich And Stupid is not so bad as Working For Rich And Stupid.
When the problem is that users are using the system in a vertical configuration as advertised by the manufacturer, you can bet your ass that it's a manufacturing defect! (More specifically a design defect, but we won't quibble.) Microsoft tells everyone that their system is just fine and dandy when placed in an upright position. Yet the slightest vibration (anyone have subwoofers? cabled controllers? hard wood floors?) can unseat the disc and cause scratches.
The problem has nothing to do with being flipped around, and everything to do with a flaw in the system's design.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
you're assuming everyone who has had scratched discs did something to cause it and that's not the case.
I made no assumptions. I quoted the article exactly.
I've seen people complaining about problems with scratched discs while not moving the system
Perhaps, but that is not what this article is about, nor is it what the law suit claims.