Slashdot Mirror


Why Not To Shout At Your Disk Array

Brendan Gregg of Sun's Fishworks lab has an interesting video demo up at YouTube demonstrating just how bad vibes, if expressed with sufficient volume in front of a rack full of disks, can cause a spike in disk latency. White noise, evidently, doesn't do them much harm. (Maybe they just feel awkward to get yelled at on camera.)

20 of 125 comments (clear)

  1. Youtube comments by slugtastic · · Score: 5, Funny
    ...always made me laugh.

    he's like the crocodile hunter of loud server rooms

  2. Maybe this is why Windows gets slower all the time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    People yelling too much at their computers

  3. Why isn't this under idle? by rolfwind · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's been known for a long time vibrations are not good for discs (see notebooks). Even by early 90s music CDs had skip protection. If a disc skips, latency will of course momentarily increase. And with tolerances down even further, it's probably worse than back then.

    In 10-15 years it won't matter anyway, almost everything will have SSD by then.

    1. Re:Why isn't this under idle? by Chris+Snook · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Prior to the advent of skip protection in portable CD players, you could make them skip for several seconds just by shouting at them briefly, because it took much longer to recover from the vibration than the duration of the shock itself.

      --
      There's no failure quite as dissatisfying as a complete and total solution to the wrong problem.
    2. Re:Why isn't this under idle? by trolltalk.com · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's been known for a long time vibrations are not good for discs (see notebooks). Even by early 90s music CDs had skip protection. If a disc skips, latency will of course momentarily increase. And with tolerances down even further, it's probably worse than back then.

      There's BAD vibrations, and then there's GOOD Vibrations.

  4. Interesting... by TFer_Atvar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I wonder if the latency would vary by the pitch and tone of the person yelling. If that's the case, I'd wonder if that could be extrapolated into reconstructing whatever was being said. Granted, if you're yelling that loud, the person in the next county is more likely to hear you first.

    1. Re:Interesting... by sakdoctor · · Score: 5, Funny

      I would say yes. When I was a teen my mother walked into my room and started moaning about the mess.
      Right then, windows blue screened and later I found the hard drive was completely dead. (Think it was a 15GB Maxtor or thereabouts) That cost me some pocket money to replace at the time.

      If you have women living in the house, factor this into your backup procedure.

    2. Re:Interesting... by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Funny

      You made me wonder; if the the effect could be detected and "read", a you say, it would be possible to use it as a way of transmitting information to the computer by shouting at it.

      I then remembered microphones.

  5. This Discovery by nitsnipe · · Score: 5, Funny

    It bothers me,
    How this guy actually made the discovery.

    He must have let off quite a bit of steam towards that rack.

  6. Great.... by Whillowhim · · Score: 4, Funny

    Now when Skynet finally goes sentient, it'll sue for emotional abuse. I thought metal death machines were bad, but now Lawyer-bots? We're doomed.

  7. Re:JBODs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative
    If you've got ZFS, why would you do JBOD?

    A few reasons.

    • If anything, I'd have figured you're more likely to setup a disk array as a JBOD with ZFS than (say) UFS. After all, you can get ZFS to do RAID0 for you (ZFS can probably also RAID1, but it's better to do that in hardware).
    • Solaris-10 still supports non-ZFS filesystems (VxFS) which I imagine you'd still want to use in some circumstances.
    • Their customers might be running an earlier version of SunOS/Solaris. He might simply be using DTrace to look at a customer bug-report from another prespective.
    • Indeed, even though he's debugging in Solaris, the customers might not even be running Solaris. Sun hardware is really sweet and is supported on both Microsoft Windows and various distributions of Linux.
    • And even if all the above reasons don't apply, using a JBOD is a good way of eliminating variables if you're trying to isolate/trace a potential hardware issue.
  8. Re:JBODs? by paulz42 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sure, with ZFS JBODs are the preferred storage. Let ZFS do end-to-end management of the storage, from the file level to the raw disk blocks. That way it can do it's end-to-end error checking and possible correction. If you do RAID1 in hardware ( really just firmware in the storage box) you trust that software to detect all problems and correct them or report them. That software may not do checking to see if both branches of a mirror are correct and pass on bad data upstream. ZFS will detect this because of it's checksums, but it will not be able to correct this. If ZFS is doing the mirroring it will detect it and read the other mirror, if that checksum is ok, it will correct the error and continue.

  9. Re:JBODs? by Chris+Snook · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ZFS implements software RAID on top of JBOD. The box full of disks itself need not have any RAID controller, and if you're using RAID-Z, it would probably be a waste of money to spring for one, unless you go for the super-high-end for performance reasons.

    --
    There's no failure quite as dissatisfying as a complete and total solution to the wrong problem.
  10. Re:Maybe this is why Windows gets slower all the t by Gandalf_Greyhame · · Score: 5, Funny

    hmm, bit of a chicken and the egg scenario there, isn't it?

    is it slow because you yell at it, or do you yell at it because it is slow?

    Either way, in the end it only degenerates into a downward spiral, where the computer gets slower and slower, while you get more and more pissed off at it and yell louder...

    --
    I am not stubborn. I am right!
  11. Secret Fact : Ultrasonic noise at low volumes ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Secret Fact : Ultrasonic noise at low volumes is WORSE !

    It took weeks to testing to get to the root issue of WD Raptors dropping in head seeks on very high end raid cards in tiny head movement seek benchmarks, but padding each JBOD drive in acoustic foam (shooting range foam), or testing one drive at a time, instead of 4 or 8, (either method works) increased I/O per second by 40% in a rack chassis.

    40% more head movements per second if no ultrasonic noise entering drives !!!!!

    This is VERY VERY RARE INFO, and only I, the head of Gigabyte in Asia, and two engineers in california know of this discovery.

    And because I know no one on Slashdot will mod this up, and no one reads at 0 anymore, I can trust my astounding well researched secret shall remain secret.

    Its sadly 100% factual.

    1. Re:Secret Fact : Ultrasonic noise at low volumes ! by thogard · · Score: 4, Informative

      You don't know too many greybeards do you? I'm surprised that modern drives are susceptible to ultrasonic under 80 khz but real old drives and drums were known to have problems with low audible frequency harmonics. A simple solution to this problem is stamp a butterfly like pattern in the arm of the head. The same thing works for power lines (which is what the small dumbbell looking things are near the insulators)

  12. Also by Brendan Gregg by Gord · · Score: 5, Funny

    Also from Brendan Gregg comes the always useful /usr/bin/maybe. Other funnies from him here.

  13. the disk whisperer ... by BigMike · · Score: 4, Funny

    I dub this guy the disk whisperer ...

  14. Re:White noise or not, it's the volume by Bengie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm not an engineer or absolutely sure about how the brain works with white noise, but I had a job that I worked at that when I entered the freezer section, it didn't seem loud at all. Actually, it so much didn't seem loud that the few times I had to enter it, I forgot my ear plugs until I saw someone else using them.

    Anyway, even though you couldn't really hear anything 'loud', if you tried to talk to anyway, you could barely hear them.

    On to my question. If you have enough high amplitude random noise that is effectively destructive interference, would this make an enviorment where low amplitude sound could not be hear or even mechanically sensed easily?

    I know using 'heard' may be incorrect in this context because perceived sound usually has no direct relation with what's mechanically going on with the sound waves.

  15. Disk Drives have a resonant frequency by thethibs · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Disk drives have a resonant frequency

    I've seen dramatic demonstrations of this over the years. One that stands out was a test of a Bryant drive sometime around 1970. In those days a 2 GB drive was at the edge of the envelope and Bryant was test-marketing just such a beast. It consisted of eight four-foot platters mounted four to a side on a shaft going through a monster of an electric motor. The heads were mounted on arms whose positioning was controlled by hydraulic cylinders big enough to be used as shocks on a pickup truck. The whole thing would not fit in the back of that pickup truck.

    We were testing the thing with a program called the "Leese Bomb". Leese can identify himself or remain anonymous--I won't turn him in. The "Bomb" part was the nature of the test.

    Basic tests in those days would involve writing a whole track and then reading it back and comparing what was read to what was written. You'd do this a number of times with different patterns to capture not only faults in the surface, but any sloppiness in the head control. The Leese bomb went one better.

    It would write to the outside track, write to the inside track, read the outside track, read the inside track, and then compare. If the comparison failed it would repeat the test, and keep repeating untl it succeeded, counting the failures. If the test succeeded it would index the test both inward and outward so that the tracks tested would move toward the middle, cross, and continue. This test was superior in that it would capture dynamic flaws in the system as the distance the heads moved, and the time to move varied from max to zero.

    In the case of the Bryant Drive (and, accidentally, an innocent Ramac drive at Caltech), the test found a resonant frequency. When the heads overshot their mark causing an error, the test stayed on the back and forth pattern, reinforcing the resonant motion with each cycle of the test. The drive started walking across the test floor in three-inch hops, but not for very long. In a few seconds, one of the shafts broke and one of the platters, a 500 pound disk rotating at 2400 rpm broke through the front of the unit and flew across the building until it was stopped, explosively, by one of the steel columns supporting the roof of the building. Miraculously, no one was hurt.

    We gave up on Bryant for that application. Not long after that, CDC introduced its 200MB drives, and they passed the Leese Bomb with flying colours. Ten of them didn't take up any more room, or cost more, than the big Bryant, so our client was happy to go with that solution.

    In any case the lesson is that, if it has moving parts, resonance is an issue.

    --
    I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.