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Why Not To Shout At Your Disk Array

Brendan Gregg of Sun's Fishworks lab has an interesting video demo up at YouTube demonstrating just how bad vibes, if expressed with sufficient volume in front of a rack full of disks, can cause a spike in disk latency. White noise, evidently, doesn't do them much harm. (Maybe they just feel awkward to get yelled at on camera.)

36 of 125 comments (clear)

  1. Youtube comments by slugtastic · · Score: 5, Funny
    ...always made me laugh.

    he's like the crocodile hunter of loud server rooms

    1. Re:Youtube comments by owlstead · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...always made me laugh.

      Yeah, they get you less tense.

  2. Maybe this is why Windows gets slower all the time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    People yelling too much at their computers

  3. Why isn't this under idle? by rolfwind · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's been known for a long time vibrations are not good for discs (see notebooks). Even by early 90s music CDs had skip protection. If a disc skips, latency will of course momentarily increase. And with tolerances down even further, it's probably worse than back then.

    In 10-15 years it won't matter anyway, almost everything will have SSD by then.

    1. Re:Why isn't this under idle? by Chris+Snook · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Prior to the advent of skip protection in portable CD players, you could make them skip for several seconds just by shouting at them briefly, because it took much longer to recover from the vibration than the duration of the shock itself.

      --
      There's no failure quite as dissatisfying as a complete and total solution to the wrong problem.
    2. Re:Why isn't this under idle? by trolltalk.com · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's been known for a long time vibrations are not good for discs (see notebooks). Even by early 90s music CDs had skip protection. If a disc skips, latency will of course momentarily increase. And with tolerances down even further, it's probably worse than back then.

      There's BAD vibrations, and then there's GOOD Vibrations.

    3. Re:Why isn't this under idle? by RobinH · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Skip protection" on a hard drive is pointless. This is a fundamentally different scenario. With a CD, you can read the data *much* faster than you really need to read it, because you only need the data fast enough to convert it into sound. Plus you almost always know which piece of data needs to be read next, because the song is linear.

      On the contrary, with a hard drive, read speed is (usually) the bottleneck, so you want the data sent to the processor as soon as you can pull it off the disk. Also, hard drives are much more random access, so you can't guess the location of the next read and read it before the CPU requests it. The only thing you can do is cache frequently accessed data in memory, which the operating system already does.

      --
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
  4. Interesting... by TFer_Atvar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I wonder if the latency would vary by the pitch and tone of the person yelling. If that's the case, I'd wonder if that could be extrapolated into reconstructing whatever was being said. Granted, if you're yelling that loud, the person in the next county is more likely to hear you first.

    1. Re:Interesting... by sakdoctor · · Score: 5, Funny

      I would say yes. When I was a teen my mother walked into my room and started moaning about the mess.
      Right then, windows blue screened and later I found the hard drive was completely dead. (Think it was a 15GB Maxtor or thereabouts) That cost me some pocket money to replace at the time.

      If you have women living in the house, factor this into your backup procedure.

    2. Re:Interesting... by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Funny

      You made me wonder; if the the effect could be detected and "read", a you say, it would be possible to use it as a way of transmitting information to the computer by shouting at it.

      I then remembered microphones.

    3. Re:Interesting... by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My first computer had a 6502 CPU with BASIC and a machine code monitor in ROM. I found that the cassette interface could be used as a sound card if I configured a tape player to record and play back at the same time. For the output channel any AM radio would do because the CPU only ran a 1Mhz and it was leaky as hell.

    4. Re:Interesting... by apoupc · · Score: 3, Funny

      "I would say yes. When I was a teen my mother walked into my room and started moaning..." I thought this was going to go somewhere else...

  5. This Discovery by nitsnipe · · Score: 5, Funny

    It bothers me,
    How this guy actually made the discovery.

    He must have let off quite a bit of steam towards that rack.

    1. Re:This Discovery by thermian · · Score: 2, Funny

      'The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.'

      George Carlin

      --
      A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
    2. Re:This Discovery by Killjoy_NL · · Score: 2, Funny

      *sniff*
      I'm dry and pedantic now

      --
      This is the sig that says NI (again)
    3. Re:This Discovery by TheLink · · Score: 2, Funny

      And udderly inspired he was.

      Q: How did the <insert target cultural/racial/whatever group here> man die whilst drinking milk?
      A: The cow sat on him.

      Sorry, couldn't resist milking it for what it's worth ;).

      --
    4. Re:This Discovery by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      >white liquid that tasted so good

      The first few brave adventurers were killed by bulls.

  6. Is this a feature? by fragMasterFlash · · Score: 2, Funny

    Might the the drives themselves be sensing the induced vibration via an embedded accelerometer and momentarily parking the heads to avoid damage? It seems like the marketing folks shouldn't have too hard of a time putting a positive spin on this behavior.

  7. Great.... by Whillowhim · · Score: 4, Funny

    Now when Skynet finally goes sentient, it'll sue for emotional abuse. I thought metal death machines were bad, but now Lawyer-bots? We're doomed.

  8. Re:JBODs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative
    If you've got ZFS, why would you do JBOD?

    A few reasons.

    • If anything, I'd have figured you're more likely to setup a disk array as a JBOD with ZFS than (say) UFS. After all, you can get ZFS to do RAID0 for you (ZFS can probably also RAID1, but it's better to do that in hardware).
    • Solaris-10 still supports non-ZFS filesystems (VxFS) which I imagine you'd still want to use in some circumstances.
    • Their customers might be running an earlier version of SunOS/Solaris. He might simply be using DTrace to look at a customer bug-report from another prespective.
    • Indeed, even though he's debugging in Solaris, the customers might not even be running Solaris. Sun hardware is really sweet and is supported on both Microsoft Windows and various distributions of Linux.
    • And even if all the above reasons don't apply, using a JBOD is a good way of eliminating variables if you're trying to isolate/trace a potential hardware issue.
  9. Re:JBODs? by paulz42 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sure, with ZFS JBODs are the preferred storage. Let ZFS do end-to-end management of the storage, from the file level to the raw disk blocks. That way it can do it's end-to-end error checking and possible correction. If you do RAID1 in hardware ( really just firmware in the storage box) you trust that software to detect all problems and correct them or report them. That software may not do checking to see if both branches of a mirror are correct and pass on bad data upstream. ZFS will detect this because of it's checksums, but it will not be able to correct this. If ZFS is doing the mirroring it will detect it and read the other mirror, if that checksum is ok, it will correct the error and continue.

  10. Re:JBODs? by Chris+Snook · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ZFS implements software RAID on top of JBOD. The box full of disks itself need not have any RAID controller, and if you're using RAID-Z, it would probably be a waste of money to spring for one, unless you go for the super-high-end for performance reasons.

    --
    There's no failure quite as dissatisfying as a complete and total solution to the wrong problem.
  11. Re:Like with plants... by freddy_dreddy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The plants publications never seems to die.

    Plants don't react to music, they react to the tiny shifts in air just above their stomata. The publication which reported this compared plants with music (read: vibrating air above the stomata) with plants in an enclosure without air vibrating (read:refreshing) above the stomata.
    The experiment shows a difference, even if there's air-movement simply because air "sticks" to the surface of plant's leaves in close proximity - behaving like a fluid. Normal air ventilation doesn't refresh this thin layer as optimal as vibrations caused by sound.

    --
    "Violence is the last refuge of the competent, and, generally, the first refuge of the incompetent" - Thing_1
  12. It's the Enclosure by selectiontimeout · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well, partly at least. It's no secret that disk drives are sensitive to vibration as this video showed an extreme case. Keep in mind, since disk drives are spinning at 7200-15000RPM, they themselves create vibration that can affect adjacent drives. The drive enclosure can help reduce the problem with use of shock absorbers and vibration dampeners. Most drive enclosures nowadays, for cost reasons, are no more than just sheet metal wrapped around power supplies, fans and drives, which contribute to the problem.

  13. Re:Maybe this is why Windows gets slower all the t by Gandalf_Greyhame · · Score: 5, Funny

    hmm, bit of a chicken and the egg scenario there, isn't it?

    is it slow because you yell at it, or do you yell at it because it is slow?

    Either way, in the end it only degenerates into a downward spiral, where the computer gets slower and slower, while you get more and more pissed off at it and yell louder...

    --
    I am not stubborn. I am right!
  14. Secret Fact : Ultrasonic noise at low volumes ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Secret Fact : Ultrasonic noise at low volumes is WORSE !

    It took weeks to testing to get to the root issue of WD Raptors dropping in head seeks on very high end raid cards in tiny head movement seek benchmarks, but padding each JBOD drive in acoustic foam (shooting range foam), or testing one drive at a time, instead of 4 or 8, (either method works) increased I/O per second by 40% in a rack chassis.

    40% more head movements per second if no ultrasonic noise entering drives !!!!!

    This is VERY VERY RARE INFO, and only I, the head of Gigabyte in Asia, and two engineers in california know of this discovery.

    And because I know no one on Slashdot will mod this up, and no one reads at 0 anymore, I can trust my astounding well researched secret shall remain secret.

    Its sadly 100% factual.

    1. Re:Secret Fact : Ultrasonic noise at low volumes ! by thogard · · Score: 4, Informative

      You don't know too many greybeards do you? I'm surprised that modern drives are susceptible to ultrasonic under 80 khz but real old drives and drums were known to have problems with low audible frequency harmonics. A simple solution to this problem is stamp a butterfly like pattern in the arm of the head. The same thing works for power lines (which is what the small dumbbell looking things are near the insulators)

    2. Re:Secret Fact : Ultrasonic noise at low volumes ! by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Informative? Seriously? I hope this is some metamod effort at providing Karma... but just in case someone does take this seriously, I should take out a patent on this. That way, when Monster sells their butterfly-patterned head arms for 20K to audiophiles who don't like the lack of warmth in SSDs, I can get in on the racket.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
  15. Re:JBODs? by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Or did I just mis-hear him?

    "JBOD" in this context will be a reference to the style of disk array (eg: vs one with a RAID controller like the Dell MD3000), not the ZFS RAID level.

  16. Re:On colors of sound by Jaden42 · · Score: 2, Funny

    And are those kept near the nuclear wessels?

    Sorry, could not resist.

  17. Also by Brendan Gregg by Gord · · Score: 5, Funny

    Also from Brendan Gregg comes the always useful /usr/bin/maybe. Other funnies from him here.

  18. before making fun of hard disks by mugurel · · Score: 3, Funny

    go and measure your own performance degradation while your hard disk does something mean to you

  19. the disk whisperer ... by BigMike · · Score: 4, Funny

    I dub this guy the disk whisperer ...

  20. Re:White noise or not, it's the volume by Bengie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm not an engineer or absolutely sure about how the brain works with white noise, but I had a job that I worked at that when I entered the freezer section, it didn't seem loud at all. Actually, it so much didn't seem loud that the few times I had to enter it, I forgot my ear plugs until I saw someone else using them.

    Anyway, even though you couldn't really hear anything 'loud', if you tried to talk to anyway, you could barely hear them.

    On to my question. If you have enough high amplitude random noise that is effectively destructive interference, would this make an enviorment where low amplitude sound could not be hear or even mechanically sensed easily?

    I know using 'heard' may be incorrect in this context because perceived sound usually has no direct relation with what's mechanically going on with the sound waves.

  21. Re:Looking up? by Bengie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    because all server admins are busy 24/7?

    Server Admins are getting paid to 'watch' the servers. They have plenty of pseudo-free time. It's when stuff is breaking that they're busy. Not to mention a good admin in large server area will have software like that person had to watch drive latency.

  22. Disk Drives have a resonant frequency by thethibs · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Disk drives have a resonant frequency

    I've seen dramatic demonstrations of this over the years. One that stands out was a test of a Bryant drive sometime around 1970. In those days a 2 GB drive was at the edge of the envelope and Bryant was test-marketing just such a beast. It consisted of eight four-foot platters mounted four to a side on a shaft going through a monster of an electric motor. The heads were mounted on arms whose positioning was controlled by hydraulic cylinders big enough to be used as shocks on a pickup truck. The whole thing would not fit in the back of that pickup truck.

    We were testing the thing with a program called the "Leese Bomb". Leese can identify himself or remain anonymous--I won't turn him in. The "Bomb" part was the nature of the test.

    Basic tests in those days would involve writing a whole track and then reading it back and comparing what was read to what was written. You'd do this a number of times with different patterns to capture not only faults in the surface, but any sloppiness in the head control. The Leese bomb went one better.

    It would write to the outside track, write to the inside track, read the outside track, read the inside track, and then compare. If the comparison failed it would repeat the test, and keep repeating untl it succeeded, counting the failures. If the test succeeded it would index the test both inward and outward so that the tracks tested would move toward the middle, cross, and continue. This test was superior in that it would capture dynamic flaws in the system as the distance the heads moved, and the time to move varied from max to zero.

    In the case of the Bryant Drive (and, accidentally, an innocent Ramac drive at Caltech), the test found a resonant frequency. When the heads overshot their mark causing an error, the test stayed on the back and forth pattern, reinforcing the resonant motion with each cycle of the test. The drive started walking across the test floor in three-inch hops, but not for very long. In a few seconds, one of the shafts broke and one of the platters, a 500 pound disk rotating at 2400 rpm broke through the front of the unit and flew across the building until it was stopped, explosively, by one of the steel columns supporting the roof of the building. Miraculously, no one was hurt.

    We gave up on Bryant for that application. Not long after that, CDC introduced its 200MB drives, and they passed the Leese Bomb with flying colours. Ten of them didn't take up any more room, or cost more, than the big Bryant, so our client was happy to go with that solution.

    In any case the lesson is that, if it has moving parts, resonance is an issue.

    --
    I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.