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TrueMotion Game Controller a Step Up From Wii Remote

Harry McCracken writes "One of my top picks at the Consumer Electronics Show was Sixense's TrueMotion, a game-controller technology that resembles the Wii's remote, but uses an electromagnetic field to provide far more precision — it knows the exact location of the controller in 3D space and which way you're pointing it. (The Wiimote only knows which direction you're moving the controller.) TrueMotion-based remotes are due by Christmas, bundled with a PC game for under $100."

187 comments

  1. I call Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    According to the Heisenburg uncertainty principle its impossible to know both where an object is precisely, and where its heading.

    1. Re:I call Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, it wasn't the hydrogen that made the Heisenberg catch fire, it was the helium paint.

    2. Re:I call Bullshit by evol262 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Uh, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle primarily applies to quantum mechanics. Beyond which, the polling rate on the controller hardly hits arbitrary precision, and can be thought of more as an extrapolation of vectors from known data points.

      --
      "The more corrupt a society, the more numerous are its laws." -Tacticus
    3. Re:I call Bullshit by BakaHoushi · · Score: 4, Funny

      That would be the joke.

    4. Re:I call Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, the humanity.

    5. Re:I call Bullshit by terrymr · · Score: 1

      i'm going with Zeno's paradoxes and arguing that movement and therefore measurement of it is impossible,

    6. Re:I call Bullshit by Gerzel · · Score: 1

      You forgot to add "beyond a point of precision."

      Turn in your physics nerd badge.

    7. Re:I call Bullshit by Gerzel · · Score: 2, Funny

      Newton beats you up with Leibniz sitting in the corner waiting for the tag team.

    8. Re:I call Bullshit by philspear · · Score: 1

      In soviet russia, where object is heading IS where object is.

      There was a reason I made a far, far worse joke, but the shock of the monstrosity I had created made me forget it...

    9. Re:I call Bullshit by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      woosh...

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    10. Re:I call Bullshit by weber · · Score: 1

      According to the Heisenburg uncertainty principle its impossible to know both where an object is precisely, and where its heading.

      Indeed, however, I believe the accuracy will suffice even for your superior motor control good sir.

    11. Re:I call Bullshit by radimvice · · Score: 1

      Non-Slashdot translation: "LOL."

    12. Re:I call Bullshit by VendingMenace · · Score: 1

      and according to the Slashdot comment principle it is impossible to post an insightful comment while simultaneously getting the joke that one is replying to

    13. Re:I call Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You still can't calculate Yaw (heading) with just x/y/z acceleration vectors. You need a third vector to calculate yaw. The wiimote triangulates the IR light from the sensor bar (it's really a transmitter, not a sensor) to determine facing. There is no other way - I cry fowl.

    14. Re:I call Bullshit by brendank310 · · Score: 1

      How can you be certain?

    15. Re:I call Bullshit by GuldKalle · · Score: 3, Funny

      Maybe he knew exactly where the joke was heading, and thus couldn't locate it.

      --
      What?
    16. Re:I call Bullshit by edumacator · · Score: 1

      Just because you don't have mad gaming skillz like me, doesn't mean I don't want a controller that could keep up with my moves to the Planck length.

    17. Re:I call Bullshit by andy_t_roo · · Score: 1

      fortunately the localisation error on a "slow" moving macroscopic object is a small fraction of the width of an atom.

      I suspect that there are larger sources of error within the system.

    18. Re:I call Bullshit by GigaplexNZ · · Score: 1

      I assume you mean Hindenburg and thermite paint.

    19. Re:I call Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, a joke so bad it didn't get posted on slashdot? Next you are going to tell me you found a rock god can't lift.

    20. Re:I call Bullshit by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      Aha! Any rock which isn't in another rock's gravity well!

      You can't "lift" that which doesn't have "up"!

      --
      It's been a long time.
  2. Eh... by XPeter · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The Wii remote is accurate enough, for me anyway. I don't use my Wii for anymore then some Wii Sports, Super Mario and Zelda. Consoles aren't meant to be these uber lean mean fighting machines with top of the line parts. If I want that, Ill go play on my computer. Console gaming will never be more advanced then computer gaming and it shouldnt be.

    --
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
    1. Re:Eh... by denzacar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Console gaming will never be more advanced then computer gaming and it shouldnt be.

      Console gaming IS more advanced then computer gaming for the sheer ability to just plain work as advertised.

      How many console games require a new graphic card, new processor, more memory, DirectX/drivers updates or OS upgrades?

      You plug it in, turn it on, drop in the CD/DVD/cartridge and it works.
      No half hour installations, needles restarts, patches that take several hours to download and install...

      For actual gameplay - consoles have been kicking PC's ass for years now.
      But, if you find fiddling around your PC, spending insane amounts of money on hardware upgrades and kicking it once in a while JUST SO YOU COULD PLAY A GAME a part of the experience - well good luck with that.

      Only game niches where PC still keeps the crowd entertained with greater efficiency are RTS, FPS and MMORPG games.
      For an idiotic reason that console makers refuse to allow onto their consoles games that require plugging in a mouse into their consoles AND comparatively high price for multiplayer gaming.
      The second reason being that you need the console+game+online/network access&support+TV screen for each player.
      And while each member of the household can validate the need for a personal computer - it is not so with a personal TV and gaming console.
      So there tends to be more PCs per household member than consoles, which gives multiplayer gaming on a PC a lower minimum requirement threshold.
      Hopefully, with new console's ability to go online something will also move up from the lower regions of the body to the heads of console and console games makers and we will finally enter the era of games that you can JUST PLAY.

      Not install, service, update, patch and set up more than you actually play the game.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    2. Re:Eh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      No, you're confusing ease of use with more advanced. If that was the case, linux would be the least advanced of the big-three OS's out there.
      PC gaming IS more advanced due to this extra level of technological requirement, it's because it's always at the edge of technology that it's often seen as unstable and difficult to manage. Your own logic doesn't really make sense at all, if something is more advanced because it DOESN'T require new hardware, then surely each time a new console comes out, they become less and less advanced?

    3. Re:Eh... by aliquis · · Score: 0

      Some people like playing on PCs, some on Xboxs, some on Playstation, some on Nintendo consoles. The rest is just how YOU feel about it.

      For instance you CAN'T get even better graphics on a console by upgrading your hardware.
      In most scenarios you CAN'T patch the game to fix bugs and flaws.
      Some games DON'T play better on a console.

      And so on.

    4. Re:Eh... by aliquis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Only game niches where PC still keeps the crowd entertained with greater efficiency are RTS, FPS and MMORPG games.

      And like nobody plays those!

      Only game niches where consoles beat PCs is local multiplayer games sitting in the couch and eventually RPGs.

    5. Re:Eh... by Tainek · · Score: 4, Informative

      You plug it in, turn it on, drop in the CD/DVD/cartridge and it works.
      No half hour installations, needles restarts, patches that take several hours to download and install...

      You evidently haven't used a console recently, I've experienced all of the above with mine.

      Not to mention the fact that my 4 month old 360's DVD drive decided to die recently. Now I have to piss about with Microsoft getting the console replaced. If that takes 2-3 weeks, I've lost 2-3 weeks of gaming. It usually takes me on average 30 mins to install a pc game&patch (10 hours a year), and a day to get a new DVD drive, I can live with that.

      As far as needing to buy new hardware for new games? I buy a new gaming PC every 4 years, Halfway through my third cycle. I have *Never* needed to buy hardware to play a new game (Excluding of course, the rise of 3D Graphics-Once). I've had to turn settings down a couple of times, but never to the point where poor graphics interfere with gameplay ( In COD4 multiplayer I used to keep all settings low out of preference, not need)

      I Spend £500 every 4 years. Even if every PC game I bought was available on the consoles I'd spend WAY more on the extra cost of console games (20 Games a year average, £10 extra cost due to console tax is £800 extra, not including the cost of the console)

      I Spend a LOT more money per console in the long run than I do on my gaming PC, despite playing about the same of games on all of them.

      Consoles are good, So are PCs. Your arguments alas, are not.

    6. Re:Eh... by rtechie · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How many console games require a new graphic card, new processor, more memory, DirectX/drivers updates or OS upgrades?

      The NES, Sega Genesis, Neo Geo, N64, and probably other consoles I can't remember have required memory upgrades to play certain games. The Dreamcast, PS2, Original XBOX, XBOX 360, and PS3 have OS updates and game patches. I can't think of any console that offered a processor upgrade off the top of my head (the Jaguar maybe?).

      No half hour installations, needles restarts, patches that take several hours to download and install.

      Except the PS3 which requires large hard drive installs for many games. Or Last Remnant, which requires a hard drive install on the 360. I don't know about the giant patches you're talking about. You're probably talking about MMO client updates. There ARE no MMOs on the console except Final Fantasy XI which distributes such client updates on discs.

      Only game niches where PC still keeps the crowd entertained with greater efficiency are RTS, FPS and MMORPG games.

      The reality is more that genres change. PC gaming used to be dominated by point and click adventure games and flight sims. These genres didn't transition to the consoles, they faded in popularity. "Devil May Cry" style action-adventure games were big last generation, in this generation, not so much. And speaking of RPGs, console RPGs are widely incorporating elements from PC games, particularly MMOs (see FFXII) not the other way around.

      Facts: PC game sales have been going up dramatically every year. Certain genres, and even certain games, have dominated PC gaming since it's inception. Those genres change over time.

      People have been predicting the death of PC gaming since before it even started. It's not going to happen unless people stop using PCs or manufacturers refuse to make gaming hardware for PCs.

    7. Re:Eh... by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      Not sure why some tool modded you as flamebait. That's pretty much how I feel about playing on the Wii most of the time. Some of the games I have could certainly use better motion sensing, but other than that, just eh...

    8. Re:Eh... by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      RPGs?? I don't so, maybe action RPGs like the japanese ones, but classic RPGs requires better interfaces than a console provides. The few RPGs, like Oblivion that have been on both Console and PC have had an absolutely horrible and useless user-interface.

    9. Re:Eh... by TerranFury · · Score: 2, Interesting

      local multiplayer games sitting in the couch

      As more and more people hook their PCs up to their TVs, I wonder if split-screen gaming will come to the PC? I wonder if, now, you could plug four wireless USB keyboards and mice (or game controllers?) into a PC, run four instances of, say, Quake 3 in windows (with each configured to use a different keyboard+mouse/gamepad for input), and play a multiplayer game through a server on localhost -- so everyone can play on your big HDTV from the couch? Obviously configuration would be at least a minor pain in the butt, but I imagine the process could be automated -- perhaps by an OSS program with a database of user-contributed "presets" for different games?

    10. Re:Eh... by TerranFury · · Score: 1

      Followup:

      A modern PC* can handily run four instances of Quake 3 at 80+ FPS. And yes, one instance can host a game and the others can connect to localhost. The only issue is control: I suspect that you can only control whichever instance has focus. But I wouldn't be surprised if a program could be written to send the appropriate messages to the different windows.

      * Tested on a Thinkpad T61 w. nVidia Quadro NVS 140M and Core 2 Duo at 2.2 GHz.

    11. Re:Eh... by HAKdragon · · Score: 1

      The NES, Sega Genesis, Neo Geo, N64, and probably other consoles I can't remember have required memory upgrades to play certain games.

       
      Please cite examples. Of the systems you listed, I've played NES, Genesis, and N64. The N64 is the only one of the group that had the ability to have it's memory upgraded and only a few games required it - (Single Player)Perfect Dark, Donkey Kong 64, Majora's Mask, and (Muliplayer) Starcraft 64 are the ones that spring to mind.
       

      The Dreamcast, PS2, Original XBOX, XBOX 360, and PS3 have OS updates and game patches.

      I'll give you that the XBOX, 360, and PS3 have system updates and game patches, the PS2 and Dreamcast (as far as I'm aware), do not. Where would the upgrades/patches be installed? They didn't have hard drives and the memory cards on those systems were pretty small in terms of space (at least by todays standards). As I said before, please cite an example.

      --
      "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs. We have a protractor."
    12. Re:Eh... by TerranFury · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Followup 2:

      These guys had the same idea. In the discussion beneath the video, they talk about using programs called "xpadder" and "autohotkey" to control both windows simultaneously. From the sounds of things, this is a promising approach, but people haven't invested a lot of time into figuring out these program's scripting languages in order to make this work.

    13. Re:Eh... by tepples · · Score: 1

      Only game niches where consoles beat PCs is local multiplayer games sitting in the couch

      For people who routinely host play dates with visiting friends or relatives, that's a rawther important niche.

    14. Re:Eh... by TerranFury · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Followup 3:

      It seems that xpaddr converts gamepad button presses to keystrokes, and autohotkey is used to send those keystrokes to the correct windows. These guys have gotten this much working. Yet although dual-mouse drivers exist, I have not found people who have gotten two mice working independently in different instances of the game. That said, if you're content with using a gamepad instead of a mouse, this seems to work.

      It'd be nice if this mishmash of different software could be bundled together as a single "play games splitscreen" program -- which one could imagine also doing other things, like stripping game windows of borders and decorations, and aligning them all to precisely fill the screen automatically.

      A completely different approach would be to use the split-screen desktop software that Microsoft should be releasing before too long, which should (hopefully) make this easy.

      Finally, in all of this I haven't considered tricks with Wine and Linux; I assume that some things (like multiple mice) might be easier in such a framework. But I think that for games, a Windows-based approach is probably, if we're honest and not too ideological, much more practical.

    15. Re:Eh... by XPeter · · Score: 0

      To clarify things, what I meant was as follows.

      Consoles aren't meant to have the cutting edge graphics or advanced hardware. If they were, then I'd be paying two grand for a high-end console. If your into all of that jazz, then you should invest in a good computer. Consoles should be like the Wii. Cheap and efficient.

      To the tools who are asking "Have you ever played a console"? The answer is yes. Everything from XBOX to Atari to 64.

      --
      "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
    16. Re:Eh... by tepples · · Score: 1

      Even if every PC game I bought was available on the consoles I'd spend WAY more on the extra cost of console games (20 Games a year average, £10 extra cost due to console tax is £800 extra, not including the cost of the console)

      But if you had two or three other people in the household, how much would you spend on extra copies of the game so that more than one person in the house can play at once?

    17. Re:Eh... by TerranFury · · Score: 1

      Followup 4:

      Another approach would be to set up a Xephyr multiterminal and run an instance of the game in each with Wine.

    18. Re:Eh... by drsquare · · Score: 1

      World of Warcraft is the only MMO played in more than niche numbers, FPSes sell more on consoles than PCs, and the RTS is pretty much a dead genre. I'd say that's pretty niche.

    19. Re:Eh... by drsquare · · Score: 1

      I'd imagine such a thing would be such a giant ballache it'd cost far less in terms of time and money to simply hook up a console with four controllers. I suppose you'd also need four desks, unless people are supposed to try to balance and keyboard on their laps and a mouse on the cushions at their side.

    20. Re:Eh... by Tainek · · Score: 1

      We don't, Single player games are installed and shared, and online games are purchased by all. Used to No-CD games for LAN but if its worth playing on a LAN, its likely worthy of online play.

      Same as with a console, although there are a few games playable online with splitscreen, There aren't many that interest me (or AFAIK, in the first place, I enjoy Co-Op play, but consoles seem to be lacking recently)

    21. Re:Eh... by fishizzle · · Score: 1

      RTS is pretty much a dead genre.

      I'd say Starcraft 2, an RTS, is one of the most anticipated releases of 2009. Not to mention the original Starcraft still has a huge following, and it is still one of the only games you could make a reasonable living off of if you were good enough, especially in Korea or China. Some matches are even broadcast on TV over there. I've watched some online and it's actually relatively entertaining with a good commentator/colour commentator duo.

    22. Re:Eh... by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

      4 Xnest servers + 4 copies of Quake 3. Job done. Windows is still living in the GUI stone age.

    23. Re:Eh... by atraintocry · · Score: 1

      Parent is failing to differentiate between updates that were done to the systems by the manufacturer. This happens with games as well. But it's all done before the product is on the shelf, not after you take it home.

      It was disingenuous of him to leave that bit out, but he's got the +5, so maybe I've experienced these things differently from everyone else. Yes, the newer systems are more PC-like with the inclusion of hard drives, and longer downloads and load-times. But those of us who didn't start out on the PS3 have a different view of things.

      This doesn't apply to Sega. They have a history of foisting half-baked hardware solutions on the public. And as you might expect, they are no longer in the hardware business.

    24. Re:Eh... by tepples · · Score: 1

      online games are purchased by all [...] if its worth playing on a LAN, its likely worthy of online play.

      I imagine that you don't have anyone under 18 in the house. What PC-based multiplayer solution do you recommend for households with children under working age, or for family parties on holiday weekends where there is no available Internet access apart from 3G dongles?

      Same as with a console, although there are a few games playable online with splitscreen

      Not all multiplayer games require that the screen be split. Take Bomberman series and Super Smash Bros. series for examples.

    25. Re:Eh... by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Sounds like small screens and it somewhat suck to see what the others do / share sound, I'd say four old shitty PCs with old CRT screens would be much better. P166 MXX or something such would do just fine since Quake1 rocks anyway ;)

      Also though the definition of HDTV is in the resolution I'd assume I'd say playing 4 split screen even on a bigger plasma/LCD would be somewhat small, mario cart on pal 2 split suck balls.

      Nah, bring out the 100+" projector instead and we're talking. 1920x1080 would obviously be preferable but 1280x728 or even 800x600 would still be nice. The last one is still higher res than standard res in Quake and it worked great back then.

      See infocus X6, X9 and X10 for instance, or older IN78 if you can find it.

    26. Re:Eh... by drsquare · · Score: 1

      So, one game that's coming out, and another that came out ten years ago that's popular in a country that sends women to jail for adultery and things fans are lethal. Now that's what you call a thriving genre!

    27. Re:Eh... by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Another alternative to split screen desktop would be to just run four virtual machines* if nothing else. I have no idea how that handles graphics acceleration so something software rendered may work best.

      * If they can configure one mouse / machine.

    28. Re:Eh... by GigaplexNZ · · Score: 1

      Not all multiplayer games require that the screen be split. Take Bomberman series and Super Smash Bros. series for examples.

      Or Worms. That was an awesome game.

    29. Re:Eh... by GigaplexNZ · · Score: 1

      Please cite examples... The N64 is the only one of the group that had the ability to have it's memory upgraded and only a few games required it - (Single Player)Perfect Dark, Donkey Kong 64, Majora's Mask, and (Muliplayer) Starcraft 64 are the ones that spring to mind.

      There's one example cited right there.

    30. Re:Eh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      empire total war, demigod, warhammer 40k II, red alert 3 and expansions, europa universalis in various settings, etc etc etc.

      only because you don't know them and you doesn't like the genre, the genre is nowhere near dying.

    31. Re:Eh... by drsquare · · Score: 1

      If no-one's heard of these games then it's pretty obviously a dying genre.

    32. Re:Eh... by Spy+Hunter · · Score: 1

      I can't think of any console that offered a processor upgrade off the top of my head (the Jaguar maybe?).

      In the 16-bit era some game cartridges included extra processors which were more powerful than the CPU in the actual console, for example Star Fox for SNES and Virtua Racing for Genesis. Also, the 32X was essentially a processor upgrade for the Genesis, but it failed in the marketplace.

      --
      main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
    33. Re:Eh... by vegiVamp · · Score: 1

      > No half hour installations, needles restarts, patches that take several hours to download and install...

      Don't worry, the PS3 fixed all that.

      Ok, granted, not hours at a time, but games install stuff on your harddisk, refuse to start until you downloaded the latest patch, ...

      --
      What a depressingly stupid machine.
    34. Re:Eh... by guru42101 · · Score: 1

      NES, SNES, and Genesis carts could have built in RAM expansions, as well as chipsets (FX chip for Star Fox).

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_nintendo

      "Game cartridge
      While the SNES can address 128 Mbit[cn 6], only 117.75 Mbit are actually available for cartridge use. A fairly normal mapping could easily address up to 95 Mbit of ROM data (48 Mbit at FastROM speed) with 8 Mbit of battery-backed RAM.[55] However, most available memory access controllers only support mappings of up to 32 Mbit. The largest games released (Star Ocean and Tales of Phantasia) contain 48 Mbit of ROM data, while the smallest games contain only 2 Mbit. Cartridges may also contain battery-backed SRAM to save the game state, extra working RAM, custom coprocessors, or any other hardware that will not exceed the maximum current rating of the console."

    35. Re:Eh... by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

      There is a considerable number of people around multiboxing and dual-instancing WoW, using funky software to control several instances of it from one single console.

    36. Re:Eh... by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

      Going on with the "accurate enough" point, it's quite true, for one simple reason: with the Wii, you don't ever use the motion control for any fine motions. Most of that is done with the infrared pointer (aiming, and stuff). Most motion control is done in a way that doesn't map 1:1 to the game world -- and quite honestly, you wouldn't want to either.

      All it takes is seeing people play Wii Sports. I practiced Karate for several years, and the way I play Boxing on Wii Sports is pretty crappy, from the game's perspective: I favor short sequences of punches that don't leave me exposed for long (with longer chains being much more damaging in-game), the game only does a punch at a time so me punching with the left hand while my right hand is still pulling back doesn't translate well, and all sorts of other such issues. My mates that never *did* practice martial arts, though, just flail wildly in their interpretation of boxing, and perform much better. If I go to tennis, I have it pretty much nailed and perform quite well -- especially versus my sister, who actually played tennis for a long time, and does much smoother, wider movements, with a degree of angle control that's really outside the scope of such a game.

      At the end of the day, the whole point of the Wii is not to give you a motion-perfect tennis simulator (though the new motion add-on might make that work). The point is to pick up on your general motion, figure out what you're trying to achieve, and translate the motions into the right way to do it.

    37. Re:Eh... by JBHarris · · Score: 1

      I can't think of any console that offered a processor upgrade off the top of my head (the Jaguar maybe?).

      Sega 32X

    38. Re:Eh... by Tainek · · Score: 1

      17 Year old and a 14 Year old actually, they both have part time jobs that pay the way (and before working age? If you arnt prepared to mow lawns or clean cars? you dont deserve the game). Both allowed unrestricted access. As far as I'm concerned, if the child is mature enough to be playing an online game in the first place, they are mature enough to have been taught to cope with anything the internet can throw at them. Think of it as the defensive programming approach to raising children.

      And at the big family gathering on Boxing day, Laptops, Even low end Laptops seem to be coming with reasonable 3D acceleration nowadays, I've been playing Fallout 3 (Speaking of which, my heart goes out to the console users without all these great mods available, I'd be royally pissed off if I couldn't fix many of the glaring problems. Now its just a mild irritation) on my new laptop with surprising ease.

      LAN networking can be achieved with a £5 piece of networking hardware, and I cannot recall once having a group gaming session without having a net connection.

      And yes, there are some console games that are played on one screen. That's why I keep the consoles about, and those are the games (plus exclusives) that I buy for them. It is still my opinion that for cross platform, PC=>Console 90% of the time.

      And Worms *Is* an awesome game, not was ;)

    39. Re:Eh... by tepples · · Score: 1

      If you arnt prepared to mow lawns or clean cars? you dont deserve the game [...] As far as I'm concerned, if the child is mature enough to be playing an online game in the first place, they are mature enough to have been taught to cope with anything the internet can throw at them.

      A lot of the kids who come to the party in question are 6 to 12 years old, too young for online games (per COPPA) and too young for their parents to let them "mow lawns or clean cars" during the summer vacation. And how do I ensure that my guests own copies of the same title? Most newer PC games don't support "spawn" copies (unlike Starcraft 1 and a lot of DS games), and you can't have one player on an Id game and the other on an Unreal game and expect the players' characters to be able to interact.

      I cannot recall once having a group gaming session without having a net connection.

      Perhaps you can afford a 2-year commitment to a mobile data plan whose TOS allows Internet Connection Sharing. I can't.

    40. Re:Eh... by HAKdragon · · Score: 1

      While I'm aware of using custom chips and what not inside of cartridges, I hardly think that would count in the argument since the end user isn't doing anything out of the ordinary to play the game.

      --
      "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs. We have a protractor."
    41. Re:Eh... by douji · · Score: 1

      Sup Com, Dawn of War, SoSE, Red Alert...

  3. Inaccurate wiimote description by Space · · Score: 5, Informative

    The statement "The Wiimote only knows which direction you're moving the controller" is not accurate, The Wiimote has a three axis accelerometer in addition to an infrared camera. The camera looks for two infrared LEDs on the "sensor bar" and depending on the distance between the LEDs and their position in the image from the camera the Wiiremote can fairly accurately determine where it is pointed on the screen.

    --
    I Don't Work Here
    1. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by KDR_11k · · Score: 4, Informative

      Additionally they're releasing the Motion Plus in the future that would allow accurate tracking of where the thing is pointed.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by neokushan · · Score: 2, Informative

      I wouldn't say it's "fairly accurate" at all, it can only determine where it's pointing on screen relevant to the size of the sensor bar. So if you have an insanely large screen, your movements become much more pronounced.
      It's also not very accurate in terms of motion. Move too quickly (and it's not that quickly at all) and it gets confused. This is why a lot of games only require tiny movements to make huge movements on screen, the only thing it knows are the velocity and the direction it's moving in.

      Since we have Gravity, it knows it's orientation in most directions. Turn the Wiimote upside down and it knows about it, because gravity has went from -1 to +1 on the Y axis, however if you rotate it left and right, the direction of gravity has not changed and thus it doesn't know about it. This is the real reason why we have the sensor bar and why it's not accurately depicting where it's pointing at the screen.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    3. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by Paralizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The statement "The Wiimote only knows which direction you're moving the controller" is not accurate

      That statement is accruate.

      The wiimote knows that direction it is moving in wiimote space, but not world space. I can prove it to you. Face north, hold the wiimote directly out in front of you with the A button facing up, and move it horizontally to the right. The force will push the accelerometer x-axis to the left, so the wiimote knows it is moving right. Now turn your body 90 degrees so you are facing east. Move the wiimote again to the right. Just like before the wiimote knows it is moving to the right. However, relative to the room you are standing in, you just moved the wiimote in two completely different directions. The wiimote doesn't know that.

    4. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by phizix · · Score: 1

      The accelerometer gives the wiimote orientation relative to Earth's gravity in addition to any swinging or other accelerations. It is fairly obvious this is exploited in WiiSports, especially bowling.

    5. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Yeah, summary is wrong, TFA is somewhat correct:
      (benefits over wiimote) "it can tell exactly where it is and what angle youâ(TM)re holding it at."

    6. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Erm, thats obvious.

      Acceleration is the second derivative of position. If you define a certain point as origin (say, a certain orientation stationary on your desk), then you have a 3 coordinate system in which X and Y are complete 0 and Z is 9.8ms^2.

      Once we have reference point, we can calculate via acceleration on the 3 axes the velocity through space and orientation of said wiimote. However, the wiimote is only accurate to +/- 3g, which is very acceptable for a game console in such a small profile.

      --
    7. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by Paralizer · · Score: 1

      On paper, sure. In practice, no. The wiimote is +/- 3g with 10% sensitivity. If you start doing those kind of precise calculations starting with data that is somewhat inaccurate then you are going to end up with data that is nearly meaningless. It wasn't designed to be that accurate. If you buy an expensive accelerometer then maybe, but the wiimote uses a ADXL330 chip.

    8. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by HisMother · · Score: 3, Informative

      Except that when you're facing away from the screen, the camera doesn't see the LEDs, so in fact, the machine [i]can[/i] tell the difference. Another thing no poster has gotten so far is that the WiiMote can compute z-access position using the distance between the LED images -- as you get closer to the screen, the lights get farther apart. I realize that the system described in the article can do more, and do it more simply -- but people shouldn't underestimate what's possible with the existing hardware. There's more there than meets the eye.

      --
      Cantankerous old coot since 1957.
    9. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you buy an expensive accelerometer then maybe,

      Even an expensive accelerometer has the same problems. Tiny calibration errors add up very quickly. Without some stable truth (like GPS), they end up way off. A week ago, I just such a system running and because it wasn't moving, it couldn't use GPS to tell which direction it was facing. As a result, it's output said it was slowly rotating at about one rotation every two minutes.

    10. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by TerranFury · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say it's "fairly accurate" at all,

      I agree with that statement. For what Nintendo does with it, though, this doesn't matter -- since we humans can see what our actions do on the screen, and we just act like complicated and squishy feedback controllers to make things behave as we want -- without thinking much about it.

    11. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by jeffeb3 · · Score: 1

      If it's so terrible, how do you explain this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw The wii remote has sensors for accelration, which can't by themselves give you position. The sensor bar gives you position in the room (angle, and distance). The accelerometers are, IMO, secondary to the infrared camera. I think the accelerometers aren't used at all for pointing games, and are used only for broad motion games. I bet they get a lot better for strong acceleration.

    12. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by acidrain · · Score: 1

      Ok, look. The Wiimote has no idea what direction it is currently moving in. It only knows about *acceleration* in it's local space. So for example due to gravity, (a kind of acceleration) when you hold it still it knows exactly which way is down. But that is about it. Also the accelerometers are bloody cheap, so all they are really good for is triggering an event when you jerk the damn' thing.

      --
      -- http://thegirlorthecar.com funny dating game for guys
    13. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by Paralizer · · Score: 1

      Your comment agreed with what I said, so I don't understand your first sentence. The only problem I see with your comment is that the sensor bar is only an approximation (and a fairly bad one at that) and obviously can only be taken into account if you are pointing the camera at it.

    14. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by cgenman · · Score: 1

      Since we have Gravity, it knows it's orientation in most directions.

      Actually, gravity is a highly complicating factor. When upright, the Wiimote knows it has an upwards acceleration. If you move it to the right, the wii mote has no way of knowing if that acceleration is from being moved to the right, or if the wii mote was tilted to the left and gravity is doing its work. You can get an upwards and backwards acceleration by keeping the wiimote upright and pulling back, tilting it about 45 degrees down and pulling straight up, or flipping it upside-down and quickly rotating it down and back in a circle.

    15. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by neokushan · · Score: 1

      Yeah but the force of gravity is a constant, so it should be theoretically possible to calculate it's direction when it's tilted.
      The problem is, if you tilt it away from the sensor bar, it's partially blinded.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    16. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had the impresion the wii remote could tell it's own orientation and, when it moves, direction and ... acceleration or strength... of said movement.

      It's only reference, though, are those two infrared leds, so for a 3D position inside a room, it needs to know where those leds are.

      I think an antenna could probably work, like with that weird musical instrument whose name I can't remember.

    17. Re:Inaccurate wiimote description by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The statement "The Wiimote only knows which direction you're moving the controller" is not accurate

      That statement is accruate.

      The wiimote knows that direction it is moving in wiimote space, but not world space.

      Nope, still inaccurate. An accelerometer also detects the force of gravity. In addition to knowing which direction you're moving it while you're moving it (or more accurately, which direction you're accelerating it while you're accelerating it), the wiimote can know the orientation of the controller with respect to the ground when you are not moving it by detecting which way gravity is pulling. Many games make use of the tilt of the controller instead of or in addition to controller motion.

  4. Targetting the PC? Did they think that through? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    It's obvious to anyone who's done serious research that the true draw of the Wii isn't its controls, but rather the social interaction through gaming it encourages. A Wii isn't a toy for a sullen adolescent; it's something the whole family can gather around, like the radio in days of yore. A Wii in the home will strengthen any family.

    PC games on the other hand, do exactly the opposite. They encourage seclusion and disconnection from others. The only interaction a PC gamer experiences is when he "frags" someone or "pwns" a "n00b". My mother (age 75) comes to play Wii Sports with my family. But would you drag your mother out for a round of Quake? How would you even hook up the keyboards to the TV? It just makes no sense. Adding motion controls to Quake isn't going to make it any less antisocial.

    This is just another long line of technologists "solving" the wrong problem. Motion controls won't save the dying PC games industry. A radical refocus on shared, family-room gaming could, but that niche is already filled by the Wii. Why is it that some companies (Nintendo, Apple) "get" that not everything can be solved by throwing more "gigs" or "bits" at something, but no one else can?

  5. Erm, ok. by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

    Im sure it will work for Windows..

    What kind of an API can we get for the Linux side? I mean, I can think of some rather cool ideas (like using one to trace a wall for input on a virtual wall and using the remote to draw on the v-wall).

    And what's the power output like, along with frequency?

    Soo may questions, so little information.

    --
  6. Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by listen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There is no economic sense in a game developer using this. Until Microsoft mandates that a bit of hardware is required for a "Genuine" windows machine, it will not factor in to any rational developers plans. And in this case its never going to happen, because it notionally excludes laptops, and no matter how painful it is in reality to play a mouse and keyboard game on a touchpad, its still "possible".

    Anyway, MS want PC gaming dead just as much as everybody else now that X360 has been a relative success: any hardware innovation has to come from single source manufacturers, and in reality that means console manufacturers - and only Nintendo actually wants to even try - and Apple. All the clone makers just like to cower in a corner and pray for a behemoth like Intel, MS, or Google to innovate for them...

    Its sad really, that the 80's with myriad incompatible silos of innovation seem so bright nowadays...

    1. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by Nicolay77 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For me at least, if PC gaming is dead, then windows is dead.

      OSX and Linux are more than adequate for my Internet and business applications.

      --
      We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
    2. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by dmomo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This maybe has a chance:

      If they make the API open and give dev's a way to easily integrate.

      If they collaborate with other device makers to settle on a common ground for functionality. This type of device, I am guessing will make it's way into PC mainstream at some point. One standard will come out on top. They need to make sure they help drive that standard.

      If they allow other hardware makers to create devices that also work against that API so the developers aren't putting an effort into something that no one will care about or use.

      Also, a killer must-have game would help. Maybe they should make a super cheap version that works with that killer game.

      It's shaky ground, but it might happen.

      I for one see these things as "just another device to clutter my life". That's why I never got a racing wheel as cool as they are.

    3. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by Yvanhoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      At my former job I used to create softwar for Polhemus sensors, which apparently use the same principle. Let me tell you that the wiimote is nothing close to these devices. The Wiimote really looked underwhelming : orientation is approximative, aiming is impossible, lag is big. Here is something using such sensors. The games are not on par top what Nintendo can produce, but try to accurately position a lightsaber in the hands of someone with the wiimote (everything is realtime in the video)

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    4. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyway, MS want PC gaming dead just as much as everybody else [..]

      You're right, Microsoft wants PC gaming dead just as much as the PC gamers.

    5. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by aliquis · · Score: 1

      lol, I would so much hate an Apple console.

      Price would be as a PS3 (high), hardware specs like a PSP (hit&miss on features) and the software would be like Wii sports (good idea and easy to pick up but missing out on depth.)

    6. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      That's what they said about guitars, and drums sets, and dance mats, and 3D cards, and steering wheels, and flight sticks with throttle and rudder. But it doesn't stop people from making tons of money selling these things.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    7. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by tepples · · Score: 1, Insightful

      For me at least, if PC gaming is dead, then windows is dead.

      If PC gaming is dead, then indie gaming is dead. The vast majority of indie games are developed on and for PCs running Windows, Linux, *BSD, or Mac OS X, or they are developed on one of those for a phone.

    8. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      That sentiment isn't just yours. I along with a number of my friends have a Windows partition solely for playing PC games. If it wasn't for PC games Windows wouldn't be installed.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    9. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indie games will always persist, "PC gaming is dead" has always referred to the unique commercial PC game culture. $10 casual PSN/Live games are basically making even indie PC games irrelevant. Wher did all the good sim games go? What happened to PC gamepads and joystick market? Modding is even dead now.

    10. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by tepples · · Score: 1

      $10 casual PSN/Live games are basically making even indie PC games irrelevant.

      But then how does an indie developer get his product onto PSN? Xbox Live I can see; you need a Vista-capable PC running Windows Vista or Windows XP, an Xbox 360 with a hard drive, the $99/year XNA Creators Club subscription, and enough time to rewrite your game in C#+DirectX, and you can try to publish in Community Games. But don't Sony and Nintendo require a developer to be at least this tall to get into PSN or WiiWare?

      What happened to PC gamepads and joystick market?

      Logitech still makes decent gamepads, and PS2 controllers work with a PC through the "EMS USB2" adapter.

    11. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      *nods*

      Same here. (I could finally set my hardware clock to GMT! Oh Joy!)

    12. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by ChienAndalu · · Score: 1

      True. So you can rephrase that to

          "If Mainstream PC gaming is dead, then windows is dead."

      Which is still problematic because of OpenOffice crappyness and other things. But I'd say that windows becomes less important when mainstream PC gaming is dead.

      Which won't happen because first person shooters and real time strategy only work on PCs.

    13. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by westlake · · Score: 1
      For me at least, if PC gaming is dead, then windows is dead.

      The key word here is "me" and it is one the geek uses far too often.

    14. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by westlake · · Score: 1
      this case its never going to happen, because it notionally excludes laptops

      I was struck by the discovery that the Mitsubishi "3D Ready" has made the home shopping channels.

      The laptop display isn't "the only game in town."

      The desktop PC remains a very flexible platform that can deliver a lot of bang for the buck - both for the developer and the user.

    15. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by witherstaff · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't go so far as to say indie gaming is dead. Torque has ports to the Xbox, wii and iPhone. Sure it takes a whole lot more to get agreements with the content providers instead of just buying a development kit from GG but it is doable.

      The days of a small group making a game without any real money involved are probably not so bright. We can hope that the iPhone and Android give us a new batch of indie developers with interesting ideas.

    16. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by atraintocry · · Score: 1

      Which won't happen because first person shooters and real time strategy only work on PCs.

      I won't deny that the Mac gaming market is in shambles now but things get better every year as:

      (a) sales of Apple machines come back around
      (b) devs realize that even though there's less Macs around, OS X ports sell a disproportionately larger amount
      (c) cross-platform coding gets easier, and hardware support for OpenGL gets better

      This all applies to linux as well.

      http://blog.wolfire.com/2008/12/why-you-should-support-mac-os-x-and-linux/

    17. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

      Is it just me or does that piece of equipment seem incredibly 'bulky' compared to the Wiimote? To me it seems to be about five times as big not to mention that tether. Not sure if the tether is needed though.

      But seriously, while it does seem to be more precise than the Wiimote (the lightsaber thing looks kinda cool), it's not really a suitable replacement, as it's a lot bigger and bulkier.

      With the Wiimote I think you'd get an actual feel for what it's like wielding a lightsaber. You'd have a handle, no real resistance beyond what you have when wielding something like a small knife, you could juggle it, toss it behind your back and catch it etc. Things that are probably a bad idea to do with a lightsaber. I just don't see that happening with that big controller.

      Get it down to the same freedom as the Wiimote (doesn't have to be just as small) and I'll be more impressed.

    18. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Ok, I should have been more specific. This particular equipment was made for a theme park, so it was made very robust. It resulted in the bulky design you see (it is actually a sawed plastic pistol for arcade shooting game, we put a polhemus device inside). The device itself exist in a wire mode (and can move in a cube of about 1m edge) or wireless (cube of 0.5m of edge). A wireless device is smaller than a wiimote. Here are pictures of a wired one and of a wireless one.

      It used to be very expensive (around $5000) but that was before the Wii was released. I don't know of their current prices. They maintained it high because they were sitting on the patents for this kind of radio-location. But I think that production costs were somewhere around $50-$100. Seriously, once you have played a bit with this kind of sensors, a Wiimote is just laughable.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    19. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by MistrBlank · · Score: 1

      PC Gaming isn't dead. But the controller market on computers is and always will be limited to Keyboard and Mouse. Anything else is very niche based and not all that popular and thus never successful.

    20. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At my former job I used to create softwar for Polhemus sensors, which apparently use the same principle.

      That's interesting, I didn't know that Polhemus made optical motion tracking devices. Or did you mean that they have a system that uses an accelerometer? I've only worked with their magnetic ones which can track the position of little sensors within three orthogonal EM fields. They're pretty cool except the presence of metal can sometimes mess up the readings.

    21. Re:Useless, like all innovative PC hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indy gaming will just move to Facebook

  7. Does anyone think these things through? by Yvan256 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I don't know about you, but when I use my computer, I'm sitting at a desk with a keyboard and a mouse. I'm too close to my monitor to start pointing a remote at it.

    I also can't imagine putting the remote down, use the keyboard, picking the remote again, repeat.

    The Wiimote is a great idea because we can't really use a mouse when sitting in front of a TV, and crappy, small, over-touchy analog sticks on a gamepad is a stupid idea to begin with.

    1. Re:Does anyone think these things through? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      It could be better, the motions that it wants aren't very good ergonomically for many. Pointing and rotating at the same time is something which is quite stressful on the wrist.

    2. Re:Does anyone think these things through? by dredwolff · · Score: 1

      I don't believe you have to point a remote at anything for this to work.

      Since it sounds like you don't want to give up your mouse, you could probably use this device as a mouse if you wanted to, and limit it to a 2d plane - then when something calls for it, you pick up the controller and use it to detect motion in 3D.

      What is it with people being so resistant to change?

    3. Re:Does anyone think these things through? by dredwolff · · Score: 1

      The motions the game wants? I don't know what you saw, but I saw a guy holding some device, not some medieval wrist wrangling torture machine twisting his arm behind his back until he begs for mercy.

      I just tried the pointing and rotating thing with my wrist, it felt fine, no stress at all - you might want to go visit an orthopedic doctor and get your joint problems looked at ;)

      Also, think of the awesome light-saber battles you could have with this thing!

    4. Re:Does anyone think these things through? by tepples · · Score: 1

      I don't know about you, but when I use my computer, I'm sitting at a desk with a keyboard and a mouse.

      In other words, you "don't know about" home theater PC owners. Some people use their HTPCs to watch video; others use them to play games. Unlike a console, a PC can play indie games.

      I also can't imagine putting the remote down, use the keyboard, picking the remote again, repeat.

      Then put a half-gamepad in the other hand. Nintendo sells such a half-gamepad for Wii under the name "Nunchuk".

    5. Re:Does anyone think these things through? by MeanderingCode · · Score: 1

      There is an enormous range of import for input development. Computing has evolved and changed with remarkable breadth since i picked up my first VIC-20, which was outdated when i got my hands on it (the days of MS-DOS and the Windows 3.1 transition). Now we carry GPS internet communications devices in our pocket and ask them where we are, when's the bus coming, and what did the stock market do in a country halfway around the world 20 minutes ago. In terms of this particular innovative direction, home entertainment computers are becoming normal for audio, video, and gaming. A large wall display and this kind of device as an interface is not a surprising or unusual direction for exploring the possible best-use ways to interact and control such a system. That could even include home automation, or anything. Input development and innovation actually have a huge impact on what we see our computers as capable of doing for us and influence how we think about the ways in which we can interact with information and communication.

  8. Finally! by denzacar · · Score: 1

    Now people will be able to bump against walls of the room and fall out of windows as they try to duck the enemy fire.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    1. Re:Finally! by Cedric+Tsui · · Score: 1

      That's hardly the point!
      The real issue will be when I FAIL to duck the enemy fire because the coffee table was in my way.

  9. Gamers no touchpad Re:Useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Any serious (or even medium) gamer who uses their laptop for gaming will have long ago paired a mouse up with their laptop.

    It's not the case that gaming with the touchpad is possible, it sucks. The case is that people just grab a mouse. Who here can honestly say they don't know where they could get a free usb mouse?

    1. Re:Gamers no touchpad Re:Useless by listen · · Score: 1

      Its a point about the politics of the thing - nothing to do with the practicality. MS will never require a piece of hardware that laptops can't have built in to be a "genuine" windows machine, and no game dev will spend their own money ( rather than a hardware manufacturers VC money ) on supporting a peripheral that is not required.

    2. Re:Gamers no touchpad Re:Useless by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      They could set up a standard for a "genuine" PC gaming system. I doubt they would, but it would be an option.

    3. Re:Gamers no touchpad Re:Useless by tepples · · Score: 1

      MS will never require a piece of hardware that laptops can't have built in to be a "genuine" windows machine

      Laptops can have at least a Wii-style sensor bar built in: just put a couple LEDs at the top corners of the LCD.

      no game dev will spend their own money ( rather than a hardware manufacturers VC money ) on supporting a peripheral that is not required.

      Activision and Konami spent money on including a plastic guitar with the Guitar Hero games. Or would you count video game publishers as venture-capital-supported hardware manufacturers?

    4. Re:Gamers no touchpad Re:Useless by atraintocry · · Score: 1

      They tried it in the pre-PC days.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX

      I'd be surprised if they did something like that now, given that it would amount to them pissing off their biggest customers, and needlessly adding tiers to the Vista Ready/Vista Capable scheme.

  10. That's cool but.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    when can I strap one of these things to my dong and control some kind of dildo device on the other end of a camera?

    1. Re:That's cool but.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      now

    2. Re:That's cool but.... by ChangelingJane · · Score: 1

      All he needs now is someone on the other end!

  11. Re:Targetting the PC? Did they think that through? by ciderVisor · · Score: 2, Funny

    A Wii in the home will strengthen any family.

    "The family that plays together...stays together."

    "The family that Wiis together...is unhygienic."

    --
    Squirrel!
  12. If they provide Linux drivers by javilon · · Score: 1

    ...or at least good specs, there will be lots of people developing for this thing. At least one, me :-)

    --


    When his defense asked, "Which computer has Jon Johansen trespassed upon?" the answer was: "His own."
  13. If it's as bad as the movie... by minsk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Perhaps I'm overly cynical of input technologies, but my take from the movie is that this is a *disaster*.

    Start with the best configuration the company could manage for the demo, with in-house software, and an experienced user. The system is still laggy and periodically jerky. It has the same lack of feedback as the Wiimote, so you need similarly simple gestures to make it usable. Their one advantage is that the position sensor should be orientation-independent, whereas the Wiimote's camera needs to see the sensor bar.

    If memory serves (and it often doesn't) the two major problems with EMF position sensing in AR are range and interference. Range should be solvable for a local input device. Interference worries me. With a near-optical system, interference sources are obvious: if your Wiimote has problems, look around for the strong light source.

    Of course the blog-based press releases do not bother communicating actual benefits or limitations of the technology, beyond "ooh, shiny!" and "ooh, revolutionary!".

  14. Not new, just cheaper by Animats · · Score: 1

    This isn't new; it's just cheaper. Magnetic motion tracking devices have been around for two decades. I had a chance to try "virtual ping pong", like this thing does, on an Autodesk system demoed at the Hacker's Conference two decades ago. All the gloves-and-goggles systems use magnetic trackers like this. So do some of the tracking systems used for motion capture. If you've been to SIGGRAPH, you've probably seen a dancer up on a platform wired up with multiple sensors, driving an animated character on a screen.

    The early systems suffered from serious lag, noise, and accuracy problems. The sensing was noisy enough that it had to be low-pass filtered, which introduced lag. You moved, then waited for the display to catch up. This was a killer problem with head-mounted VR. Accuracy was a problem. Even relative accuracy wasn't that good. When I saw these things at SIGGRAPH, I'd sometimes gesture to the dancer demoing the thing to put her hands together, forefinger to forefinger. If the character on screen showed the forefingers touching, the system had decent relative accuracy. Usually it didn't.

    It's hard to tell from the video how accurate this new version is. With single-sensor demos, you can't see if there's serious error. But it's cheap. The Polhemus systems cost thousands of dollars.

    1. Re:Not new, just cheaper by citizenr · · Score: 1

      you can clearly see huge lag on TrueMotionâ(TM)s youtube videos :( by huge I mean 10-30ms, that is huge for gaming.

      --
      Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
  15. Sounds like the expired Wacom patents by K8Fan · · Score: 1

    I could give a damn about a 3D game controller. But I would very much like to see cheap 3D input devices for animation and motion capture. Perhaps we'll first see this new Wii remote retrofitted to 3D software like Max. Can't happen soon enough!

    --
    "How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
    1. Re:Sounds like the expired Wacom patents by dredwolff · · Score: 1

      Not only that, but talk about perfect for designing 3D models!

    2. Re:Sounds like the expired Wacom patents by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Or you could just use one of those $700 spaceball dohickeys. Talk about overpriced. You could basically accomplish the same thing with a couple $50 joysticks.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    3. Re:Sounds like the expired Wacom patents by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Can you actually accomplish the same thing with a couple of $50 joysticks? I would very much like a Windows controller driver that will take two or more game controllers and fuse them into a single virtual controller with so many axes and so many buttons. AFAIK you can have at least seven axes and 24 buttons. This would be incredible for playing Mechwarrior.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Sounds like the expired Wacom patents by Salamande · · Score: 1

      Ever tried messing with the Steel Battalion controller for Mechwarrior? It works surprisingly well.

  16. Head Tracking Dream Machine!! by dredwolff · · Score: 1

    Am I the only one that saw this an immediately thought this would be perfect for head tracking and full immersion software?! This is EXACTLY what I have been waiting, *especially* if you can use multiple devices! 2 would be perfect for an FPS, one for the hand and one for the head - then you just add in a set of those "personal theater" eyeglasses with two inputs instead of one an you can add stereoscopic vision to the package! Seems like we're just a year away from a pretty ideal full-immersion home gaming system!

    1. Re:Head Tracking Dream Machine!! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      You can do head tracking with a camera and a little CPU time right now, which is a far superior solution. In fact you can run it on the same machine you play the game on without ill effects, it's especially sexy for people with a webcam at the top of their laptop screen. I wonder if we could make polarized hard contacts that would work with the 3d displays which depend only on polarization effects.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  17. Latency by javilon · · Score: 1

    Latency seems to be pretty high, doesn't it?

    --


    When his defense asked, "Which computer has Jon Johansen trespassed upon?" the answer was: "His own."
  18. Re:Targetting the PC? Did they think that through? by Tamran · · Score: 0

    [Citation Needed]

  19. Re:Targetting the PC? Did they think that through? by Moraelin · · Score: 1

    PC games on the other hand, do exactly the opposite. They encourage seclusion and disconnection from others. The only interaction a PC gamer experiences is when he "frags" someone or "pwns" a "n00b". My mother (age 75) comes to play Wii Sports with my family. But would you drag your mother out for a round of Quake? How would you even hook up the keyboards to the TV? It just makes no sense. Adding motion controls to Quake isn't going to make it any less antisocial.

    1. That's funny because my mom and dad are currently raiding together in WoW. Two different PCs in the same room. (Well, actually four PCs, but they're complete nerds like that.) You don't need a single TV to play together, you know.

    Apparently they're getting along better than ever too. Now they actually have a common topic and interest again. So there you go, you can use PCs for the whole family too.

    They also played together on other consoles than the Wii too before. There were and are plenty of N64, Playstation, Dreamcast, PS2, XBox, etc, games that can be played together on a single screen. There's a reason why every single bloody non-portable console ever made had more than one controller socket. The Wii didn't invent that.

    Heck, there were plenty of games played on a shared screen on personal computers too. E.g., about half the games on the old Spectrum supported two players on the same screen. I'm also pretty sure that a lot of PC games did too (e.g., I remember playing Golden Axe together with my brother or with a visiting friend, on the same screen and keyboard.)

    You can play together on two PSP's via its built-in wireless network. I would imagine that the same applies to a DS, though sadly I don't own one to check out.

    So let's let this bullshit meme die already. Just because you lack the imagination to gather your family around anything else than a Wii, doesn't make the Wii anything uniquely magical. It just means you lack an imagination.

    Note that I have nothing against the Wii itself at this point. But it's just another of the _many_ things you can play together. Let's drop the falsehood that it's the _only_ thing for the whole family, and that PCs are somehow just for antisocial adolescents.

    2. Also, Quake is at best strawman there. Not every PC game is Quake. There are PC games ranging from ultra-competitive twitch-games, to cooperative-only games. There are games ranging from from violent like Quake to:

    - stuff like The Sims which is a glorified doll house, and sold to a lot of women. So, yes, you could probably drag your mom to play The Sims without turning her antisocial,

    - stuff like Catz or Dogz which are a sort of a high-tech Tamagochi. Again, I could see anyone's mom spending at least a few minutes with a virtual kitten. (And if you think that's antisocial loner gaming, note that Nintendo too did release games like Nintendogs.)

    - a plethora of Barbie games for little girls, plus a few other similar games without the franchise

    - logic games like The Incredible Machines, or the Creatures series which combined caring for cutesy creatures with building elaborate... well, incredible machines, to keep them separated

    Etc, etc, etc.

    If you're going to address something as broad as PC gaming, then make sure you actually address PC gaming as a whole, not just some convenient niche that fits your preconceived point.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  20. You Are Full of Shit by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

    When was the last time you played on a Console. Go ahead, tell us?

    You can buy upgrades for the 360.
    You can install games onto a console.
    You have to patch a lot of games out on consoles these days because of bugs.
    PC gaming isn't anymore expensive than the consoles when they're brand new, and when they're brand new, they tend to have more features than their second and third generation counter parts (and so on).

    The only thing you might have is gameplay, but that's only because certain types of games don't work to well with mouse + keyboard combo, but gamepads have existed forever to negate that.

    So tell us, when was the last time you played on a console? And what Console? Furthermore, when's the last time you did PC gaming? You seem to lack some knowledge on both fronts.

    1. Re:You Are Full of Shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >You can buy upgrades for the 360.

      Yes. But assuming you don't buy the most basic XBOX it has all the accessories necessary to enjoy most all games (except those that require special controllers, but that's the same across the board).

      >You can install games onto a console.

      Yes, and they play just as easy as they did off the DVD/CD. Or or two movements of the controller and it works, every single time.

      >You have to patch a lot of games out on consoles these days because of bugs.

      I've never done this once, and I've played literally HUNDREDS of console games. The last time I considered patching a console game was Prince of Persia. Instead, I just used the workaround. I've never seen a console game that didn't work out of the box. I've seen so many PC games that don't work out of the box I've come to check for patches before I even try installing it.

      >PC gaming isn't anymore expensive than the consoles when they're brand new

      Interesting. The release cost of the Wii was under $300. I know you could buy an eMachines at the time for under $300, probably even including the monitor, but with a 2D video card standard, I don't know if you could say it is any good for games. I'd love you to point out where I can buy a PC that's even half decent for games for $300, all necessary parts in. Don't show me any that exist today, show me one that existed on release day for the Wii/PS3, or the XBOX 360 at similar prices for those consoles.

      >The only thing you might have is gameplay, but that's only because certain types of games don't work to well with mouse + keyboard combo, but gamepads have existed forever to negate that.

      Remember to include the cost of a decent gamepad in the PC price above, since they don't include it. I've yet to find a console that doesn't come with a controller.

      >So tell us, when was the last time you played on a console?

      12 hours ago.

      >And what Console?

      Wii and XBOX 360.

      >Furthermore, when's the last time you did PC gaming?

      When was the PS2 released again? I was turned off PC gaming so much back then I'll never go back unless someone can prove to me the price is right. Then at least when the games are breaking constantly, I don't feel I'm out $1,000.

      >You seem to lack some knowledge on both fronts.

      You seem to think all consoles are a PS3.

    2. Re:You Are Full of Shit by tepples · · Score: 1

      You can buy upgrades for the 360.
      You can install games onto a console.

      But can I run indie games on a PS3 or Wii without exploiting bugs in the OS to get unsigned code to run?

      PC gaming isn't anymore expensive than the consoles when they're brand new

      How many PCs do you need for three people to play, and how many copies of each game? Now how many consoles and how many copies?

    3. Re:You Are Full of Shit by Kneo24 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Alot of your tripe is irrelevant. The complaints were:

      You don't need to upgrade a console.
      Actually you might depending on what you buy and your needs.

      Updating isn't necessary.
      It is for certain games. I had to get Firmware updates for my Wii so I could play Brawl. Some games just don't work right out of the box for certain SKU's until you patch it. Your lack of problems are irrelevant here. Some games don't work properly and require patches. Consoles require firmware updates for certain games and features, and sometimes those updates can make things worse, not better.

      PC Gaming is More Expensive.
      It really isn't. Just because someone choose to build a $1000 box doesn't mean everyone has to. Just because someone choose to upgrade every year or sooner doesn't mean everyone else has to. If in the future you need to upgrade some major component in your PC, you can do that. It negates the cost of having to buy a new PC. Once a new console comes out (generation wise), the entire box is obsolete. You don't run into that as often with the PC. PC's have greater backwards compatibility than consoles do. Can you play every single one of your NES games on your Wii? Probably not. Can I do that on my PC? Yes I can! Besides, games on the PC are cheaper at retail by at least $10, if not more. My parents accidentally bought me the new PoP game for the PS3 instead of the PC for Christmas. When I returned it for an exchange, I got $11 and some change back. If you buy a lot of games, that really adds up.

      Gameplay (and gamepads).
      Only a minor point. Platforming and racing is still easily done with the mouse and keyboard. It's just more fluid with a controller. It's like FPS's on consoles. The controller isn't optimal, but it's very doable.

      Your glib comment about me thinking all consoles are a PS3 is just idiotic rhetoric. All of your comments consist of, "I didn't have that same experience, therefore you are full of shit", instead of you actually looking at the facts.

    4. Re:You Are Full of Shit by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      You can buy upgrades for the 360.
      You can install games onto a console.

      But can I run indie games on a PS3 or Wii without exploiting bugs in the OS to get unsigned code to run?

      Not sure what you're trying to get at here. You can install games from your disc onto some consoles now. Some games see performance improvements, some do not. No, maybe you can't run all indie games on your PS3 or Wii, but you may not be able to do that on your PC either.

      PC gaming isn't anymore expensive than the consoles when they're brand new

      How many PCs do you need for three people to play, and how many copies of each game? Now how many consoles and how many copies?

      I think that's kind of irrelevant depending on what type of gamer you are. If you enjoy local multiplayer, sure, the console would probably be the way to go. I know a lot of people who have consoles that rarely use local multiplayer. I know those that have consoles that do use it a lot. And believe it or not, some PC games do allow you to do local multiplayer on the same PC.

      remember though, if you want to do local multiplayer with a console, it allows only up to four people. Beyond that you do need more consoles, copies of said game, and TV's, along with the controllers.

      As I stated earlier, your point is irrelevant depending on your needs.

    5. Re:You Are Full of Shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >I had to get Firmware updates for my Wii so I could play Brawl.

      All Wii games come with the necessary updates built onto the disc. You had no need to download any updates separately. The updates are installed automatically. I remember myself running that game and I recall it updating my console. This is completely different than a PC game where you manually, or even automatically download updates from the manufacturer's website. How so? The disc does it all, no extra work, hardware, software, or expense is required. The PC required you to buy an internet connection to get the game running. It required you to wait for the update.

      If a company is releasing a game without necessary updates for the console, it should not have the seal of approval for that console. If it got one, you need to contact the console manufacturer and lodge an official complaint. They will fix the issue if their QA is bad, rather than your console being broken.

      >It really isn't.

      Literally, your entire comment can be summed up to that. "I fell it isn't so therefore it isn't". You haven't found me a PC from the Wii release date that cost under $300 at that point can play even HALF of the available PC games properly. Do that and you've proven me wrong. Until you do, I'm clearly correct.

      >Once a new console comes out (generation wise), the entire box is obsolete.

      Are you saying the games for that console don't work well with it anymore? Or are you just saying that you lose the advantage of saying you've got the latest, greatest?

      It must be the latter. If that's the case, you are talking about the people that spend $1,000+ a year on their PC, because if you aren't, you'll have a hard time claiming you have the latest and greatest. You can still buy the "obsolete" PS2 and there are not only a HUGE library of games for it, but new games are actively being developed for it.

      Don't give me that "obsolete" excuse. It doesn't fly.

      >Platforming and racing is still easily done with the mouse and keyboard.

      Hey, I don't disagree. But it was suggested that with a console you *have* to buy accessories like a gamepad. Quite the contrary, they normally come WITH the console. Unlike a PC, that normally will come with ZERO gaming-specific accessories.

      >Your glib comment about me thinking all consoles are a PS3 is just idiotic rhetoric.

      Your adhominem attack on the other poster implying he has a lack of intelligence, or is ignorant, is far worse. And you continue to use adhominem attacks. Why?

      >"I didn't have that same experience, therefore you are full of shit"

      a) No. I have proven that you cannot buy a PC for under $300 when the Wii was released that could play most games acceptably, and I've given proof (seal of approval) that ALL games for the console WILL run on that console properly without ANY extra work, PERIOD. You see, it's called a guarantee. Can you find me a seal/guarantee for PCs, apart from the one from MS that requires you to buy all sorts of stupid shit to make it valid?

      b) Quit with the adhominem attacks. It isn't becoming of you.

      c) *YOUR* attacks clearly give ZERO evidence of your point, they just iterate the usual "I said it so it's true" bullshit. *PROVE* to me a sub-$300 PC at release time for the Wii didn't suck for gaming. You just have to dig up a flyer. It isn't rocket science. It isn't even hard. As Nike says: Just do it.

      d) I give you facts that you ignore. Stop it. Pay attention. Quit with the adhominem attacks. Don't act like so many other "PC gaming is better" people I've spoken to. I don't get it. You will never convince someone of your point by calling them stupid. If you have no intent of convincing someone of your point (or learning yours is wrong), why even bother replying? Because it makes you feel better? Are you that petty? Good grief.

    6. Re:You Are Full of Shit by atraintocry · · Score: 1

      Wii firmware updates are quick and painless compared to, say, Windows Update.

      Of course, a system like Steam that takes care of updates, installs, DRM, etc, makes things much easier.

      There is a fundamental difference between an open system (by which I mean, will run unsigned code) and one that ships neutered. The overall experience on the latter is more controlled, and can be much better. But you lose the freedom to do what you want with the hardware.

      Is one or the other better for games? I think the better question is, what's wrong with both? I have plenty of fun playing games on my phone, even. Not exactly immersive, but fun.

      It's only recently that consoles have started to shove the inconveniences of steady updates and long load times on gamers. But you still have a choice: these things are still tolerable on the Wii. Like you say, it's a broad market and it's about what the individual wants. But I take issue with someone pointing to console annoyances and saying that they're equivalent to PCs there. There may not be a difference in kind, but there is certainly a difference in the amount.

    7. Re:You Are Full of Shit by Kneo24 · · Score: 0, Troll

      You *may* be correct about Brawl. I just remember needing a firmware update. I remember talking to one of my coworkers about it and he found it odd, stating that if I was keeping the firmware up to date, I shouldn't have needed that update.

      The distinction here is that the game doesn't work out of the box. While it might have the necessary updates to play the game on the disc, I couldn't just pop it in and play. But this is just on the Wii platform alone.

      The PS3 has had a firmware update that made your PS3 useless. A lot of high profile games that have recently came out on the PS3 and the 360 just don't work properly for some people. Not because they can't be read, but the games themselves have bugs.

      Once again, the whole point was that on the PC you had to do all of this tedious updating and on the consoles you don't. But you clearly do have to do some tedious updating on the consoles too. That things just sometimes don't work out of the box like everyone expects it too. And guess what? You need to pay for an Internet connection for these updates.

      A PC for $300 bucks? I'm sure I could play half of the PC games "properly", whatever that means. The Wii was nothing more than last generation hardware. If we're going to go by those specs, I could do the same with the PC.

      However, I doubt one could find a plethora of prices from that time period. Even if you could find some prices, it's probably not enough information to do smart shopping to get the best deals. What you're clearly asking for is probably impossible.

      And even then, what you may consider to be enough to be a full build, I may consider less to be a full build. I may consider that more items are necessary to be a full build. Am I allowed to reuse parts? Am I not allowed to reuse parts? Not all parts are immediately dated.

      Are you saying the games for that console don't work well with it anymore? Or are you just saying that you lose the advantage of saying you've got the latest, greatest?

      It's obsolete because it's older generation hardware. That doesn't mean people can't do with it as they please. Sony dropped backwards compatibility for PS1 and a lot of PS2 games. I also wouldn't call the 360 backwards compatible, as it doesn't work with most XBox games. The Wii is backwards compatible, but anything older than the GC (assuming you had one and games for it), you will have to pay money once again to get those games on your Wii IF they're available. The point is when companies start making next generation items of their hardware and make it so you can't use some of the old with their new hardware, it's obsolete.

      And for the people who don't spend a lot of money every year on their PC, that doesn't mean that their initial build wasn't built to take future games into account, and it doesn't mean that they can't play newer games at max settings.

      The hardcore PC gamer tends to spend a lot of money anyway. The average PC gamer, the ones who play a lot of flash based games, probably don't need to do a lot of updating period. Perhaps a memory upgrade after couple of years (though 2GB is pretty much the standard these days, and most won't need more than that). Or possibly a video card upgrade, which can run you as low as $30 or so and can net you a DX10 card. Those types of cards are low end, however if you do low end gaming, they suit their purpose well, and then some.

      But it was suggested that with a console you *have* to buy accessories like a gamepad

      Not sure where you got that idea from. It was actually suggested for the PC, and then only for a few types of genre's which aren't the "norm" on the PC.

      But then you go on further to say that PC's you can buy don't automatically come with the right input devices to play the games. You must have a very narrow view of what the right input devices might be. All you need is a mouse and keyboard. They may not be "gaming specific", but not every game you play on the PC will benefit from "gaming

    8. Re:You Are Full of Shit by Kneo24 · · Score: 0, Troll

      So how is Windows update painful? It looks for updates for you and even installs them for you if you so choose. That's far less work that you have to do than the Wii. Yes, sometimes you have to reboot your PC, but so what? I wouldn't call that "painful".

      Long load times have always been a problem with console games in the past ten years or so. That specific problem I wouldn't call "recent". But yeah, the other problems are more recent. I'm not trying to say they're equivalent by any means, but they do exist. If someone is going to make blanket statements that consoles don't suffer some of the same problems as PC gaming, I'm going to point out that they do suffer some of the same problems, because they do in fact suffer from the same problems.

    9. Re:You Are Full of Shit by denzacar · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Take it easy kid. You sound ridiculous getting wind up about particular way of playing games.
      Actually, you sound like you are 15 and sexually frustrated.

      First - learn the difference between "can" and "have to".
      For example...
      CAN you play every game that ever came out for 360 without hardware upgrades?
      Do you HAVE TO upgrade your 360 in order to run (not play - run) the latest 360 games?

      There were always patches on a PC, on consoles it is a recent "bonus".
      Still, in general, console games tend to "just work". PC hasn't had a "just working" game since they realized that they can have more than just the .exe file.

      PC gaming isn't anymore expensive than the consoles when they're brand new, and when they're brand new, they tend to have more features than their second and third generation counter parts (and so on).

      I have no idea what in the hell you are trying to say here.

      PC gaming on a brand new PC isn't more expensive than on a brand new console?
      Also... consoles tend to be stripped down in the later editions?

      Ouukay... PS3 launched at $499 and $599. XBox launched at $399 and $299 (Core). Wii launched at $249.99.

      Now... I dare you. I double and triple dare you... I double and triple dare you and call you a sissy. I double and triple dare you, call you a sissy and I am making claims about your mother's weight...
      Assemble a "gaming PC" for ANY of those prices. Without a monitor. Let us for a moment live in an imaginary world where people play HD console games on old 15" TVs.
      And since it would be unfair to ask for you to run anything new on such a PC a year later I'll give you even more rope to hang yourself with.

      Take the higher price of each console, add 'em up together, and assemble a gaming PC that will run the newest game TODAY on full details and effects.
      And since I am a bastard - I want it to run the latest game on full details and effects a year from now.

      Naturally... we are talking about GAMES games. Not your mom's solitaire or flash games, or some poor freeware game.
      We are talking about those titles that get the TV commercials and front page reviews in PC and gaming magazines.

      The only thing you might have is gameplay, but that's only because certain types of games don't work to well with mouse + keyboard combo, but gamepads have existed forever to negate that.

      So tell us, when was the last time you played on a console? And what Console? Furthermore, when's the last time you did PC gaming? You seem to lack some knowledge on both fronts.

      Excuse me? Which game is that? The one that does not work with 100+ key controller and an additional 2+ keyed pointer device?

      As for my gaming experience...
      Some light Xbox 360 - DMC 4. PS2 and PS3. Mostly multiplayer, various Tekkens, Soulcaliburs, soccers, Guitar Heroes, N4Ss etc.
      PC... HLs and Portal (re-played), BF2, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., F3.
      Also, gave up on the Oblivion somewhere in between those.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    10. Re:You Are Full of Shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      assemble a gaming PC that will run the newest game TODAY on full details and effects.

      Find me a console that can play any game TODAY on full details and effects at high-res.

      Wait, what's that? There ARE no graphics options in console games? Oh, I see...

    11. Re:You Are Full of Shit by Kneo24 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Right, I'm a sexually frustrated 15 year old because I've pointed out flaws in someones understanding. I hope you enjoy your troll mod.

      CAN you play every game that ever came out for 360 without hardware upgrades? Do you HAVE TO upgrade your 360 in order to run (not play - run) the latest 360 games?

      A bit irrelevant. When it comes time for updates, whether it be bug patches or content update, you're going to need that hard drive. Maybe you don't want updates? That's fine.

      Assemble a "gaming PC" for ANY of those prices

      People do it all the time. Hell, my old gaming PC can still max out L4D's settings. It has an X2 4800, 2GB DDR400 RAM, and a 7950GT. It's old by today's standards and can run games well into the future. But I'm sure you'll go on some long winded rant about Crysis, a game that is the exception, horribly developed, and certainly isn't the rule, right? Because no gaming PC can handle that game at max settings.

      But wait, you guys on the consoles can't even change your graphical settings. So when a game is horribly designed and you get frame rate issues, there's not a whole lot you can do.

      However I'll bite.
      CPU - 99$
      Motherboard - 55$
      RAM - 38$
      GPU - $150
      Case (with PSU) - $50
      HDD - $80
      DVD Burner - 23$
      Mouse - $10
      Keyboard - 7$

      Total Cost: $512

      For the OS, they can easily install Linux and use Wine. You don't need an uber leet box to make sure you can play games at max settings next year, or even the year after.

      The CPU is fine. Not top end, but it can hold it's own. The GPU is more powerful than a 3870, which can still max out every recent game so far, except for the exceptions (which none can max out). And 4GB of RAM will last a very long time.

      I could have went cheaper on the Case, which would take out $14. I could have went with a 4670 with 1GB of RAM, which would take another $50 off. And that PC would still run games at max settings a year from now. That new price would be $448. More expensive than the 360 at launch by $50, but with greater backwards compatibility and room to do actual upgrades that mean something.

      Let us for a moment live in an imaginary world where people play HD console games on old 15" TVs.

      But people do. It may not be their old 15" TV, but those TV's probably don't have HD capabilities. Monitors inherently have it. A left over 19" monitor would be very acceptable.

      Naturally... we are talking about GAMES games. Not your mom's solitaire or flash games, or some poor freeware game.

      You are truly narrow minded. Those are still games. Would you toss Audiosurf into that mix as well? A game but really isn't a "game"? It's fun, it's cheap, and it can run without beastly hardware. How about any other awesome indie game?

      Excuse me? Which game is that? The one that does not work with 100+ key controller and an additional 2+ keyed pointer device?

      I don't know what you're smoking. I never said no game on the PC worked with that. I was just merely stating some genre's aren't going to be played with the optimal input devices with a mouse and keyboard. That doesn't make it any less doable.

  21. Re:Targetting the PC? Did they think that through? by ChangelingJane · · Score: 1

    They encourage seclusion and disconnection from others.

    That must be why my brothers and I would play Age of Empires networked, in the same house, and then chat about it afterward.

    I mean, it did encourage disconnection when we played Unreal Tournament, but that's only because I kicked their asses so bad they got mad at me...

  22. Can this be used for 3 motion capture for 3d model by ancient_kings · · Score: 1

    model animation? Like those used in hollywood?

  23. Re:Can this be used for 3 motion capture for 3d mo by TerranFury · · Score: 1

    Yes, mocap suits fitted with a bunch of inertial sensors exist. It's cheaper than optical systems (with the "ping pong balls"), and in some ways easier to use (you don't need to worry about occlusion, for instance), but integrator drift is always a problem.

  24. Due by Christmas !? by j741 · · Score: 1

    I love the part that says "due by Christmas". So does that mean that it's currently at least 3 weeks late, or does someone have a really aggressive marketing department that likes to announce things waaaay too early?

    --
    - James
    1. Re:Due by Christmas !? by justinlee37 · · Score: 1

      It's the latter. In fact, making an announcement like that early on in Q1 is probably a way of increasing the stock price today (assuming they are traded). Since traders often purchase stock in companies during the summer or spring that they believe will increase in value during the winter due to the "christmas craze" that always causes a spike in sales volume for many kinds of companies, advertising a sort of "christmas product lineup" is a good way to make your company look attractive to speculators who will buy stock 6-8 months before Q4, pushing up the stock price. And since investors buy that early in the yearly cycle, making the announcement this early makes sense from that perspective.

  25. Nintendo Announced this LAST YEAR by Kagato · · Score: 1

    The Motion Plus is a small device that snaps into the bottom of the Wii remote to increase precision. Look for it soon to be packaged with Wii Sports Resort as well as a stand alone package.

    It was demonstrated at E3 and looked very good.

    +5 points for the idea, -500 for being months behind Nintendo.

  26. Using the wiimote as a pointer by KalvinB · · Score: 1

    http://blog.dawnofthegeeks.com/2009/01/01/a-better-wiimote-pointer/

    You have to use the accelerometer data and the IR data in order to figure out where the wiimote is located in 3D space and what direction it is pointing.

    http://blog.dawnofthegeeks.com/2009/01/08/elmos-world-the-video-game/

    Elmo's World: The Video Game is a homebrew product with 3 mini games demonstrating the use of the Wiimote as a pointing device.

    The TrueMotion controller uses a lot more sophisticated materials and methods to get a more accurate reporting of location and direction of the pointer. The biggest advantage is not having to be pointed at a light source so you can face it away from the screen and its location is still known.

    With the Wiimote the Wii has to make some assumptions about location when the Wiimote can't see the IR lights. In those cases it tries to make use of the accelerometers to figure out how the wiimote is moving to keep everything accurate. As soon as two IR light sources are in view it can get the (somewhat) exact location again.

    It wouldn't surprise me if Nintendo as some point releases an updated Wiimote that does away with the IR sensor. The issue for them is always cost. Nintendo seems to try to make the best use of current technology that can be assembled under a certain price point. If they could build a TrueMotion like system and sell it for no more than the current Wiimote they'd most likely do it. In the meantime the Wiimote as is works well enough and meets the price requirements.

    1. Re:Using the wiimote as a pointer by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I've been wondering when the EyeToy would make a comeback. Game consoles of today have the processing power to do MoCap, at least well enough for playing games. They could make you put on some sensors, perhaps just some white cuffs, belt, and headband on a darker (any color) outfit? Maybe they could have a light-on-dark mode and a dark-on-light mode, that would be a massive improvement over EyeToy. And of course, you're going to need three cameras to get full positioning data, but wireless cameras cost practically nothing compared to, say, two generations ago. Maybe someone will resurrect this idea in the next one? Not to mention that there's TONS of people who would pay just to get cheap MoCap. The console could have one camera built in...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  27. This is why I never took to the Wii. by feepness · · Score: 1

    It didn't really seem that sensitive and the lag really bugged me.

  28. EM field by philspear · · Score: 1

    As an added bonus, you can automatically play the "Mess with Grandpa's pacemaker" game.

    (Note, if you are going to start blabbing about how the field isn't strong enough or something like that: preemptivewoosh)

  29. When proportions of actor and character differ by tepples · · Score: 1

    If you've been to SIGGRAPH, you've probably seen a dancer up on a platform wired up with multiple sensors, driving an animated character on a screen. [But...] Even relative accuracy wasn't that good. When I saw these things at SIGGRAPH, I'd sometimes gesture to the dancer demoing the thing to put her hands together, forefinger to forefinger. If the character on screen showed the forefingers touching, the system had decent relative accuracy. Usually it didn't.

    Some of these real-time motion capture systems have a cartoon character with exaggerated proportions on the other end. Character proportions in some art styles are supposed to differ from those of the actor; that's how we get Precious Moments figurines that are 2.6 heads tall, not the typical 6 to 8 of a human. How would you expect a mo-cap system to correct for short, stubby fingers on some characters?

    1. Re:When proportions of actor and character differ by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      How would you expect a mo-cap system to correct for short, stubby fingers on some characters?

      With a skeletal system and IK. Put the tips of the fingers where I put mine, flex the hands and arms as necessary to put them where they need to be. Wow, this problem has been solved since the eighties.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  30. Not if it's expensive by KalvinB · · Score: 1

    It'll make economic sense when the consumer can get the controller for under $50 and can make use of it with software they already have.

    I put together an Elmo game

    http://blog.dawnofthegeeks.com/2009/01/08/elmos-world-the-video-game/

    for my daughter who's not quite 2 yet using the Wiimote and the XNA Game Library. But since it costs $40-50 for the controller plus $20 or so for a bluetooth adapter there's probably not going to be much demand for Wiimote enabled games on the PC.

    However if PCs came equipped by default with a bluetooth adapter and games started making the Wiimote an optional controller it would be tempting for people to purchase a Wiimote even if they don't have a Wii.

    Likewise if this TrueMotion controller costs as much or less than any other high end game controller and has a lot of support in existing games people would spend the money to get it. The TrueMotion people need to work with Valve, Id and others to encourage them to come out with a free patch that makes the TrueMotion controller work with the popular games already out.

    The only thing I don't like about using the Wiimote with the PC is that connecting isn't as easy as pressing the A button. If TrueMotion is easy to use for the consumer and gets below $50 I'd definitly switch from messing with the Wiimote.

  31. Buying one console+TV+pads vs. buying four PCs by tepples · · Score: 1

    That's funny because my mom and dad are currently raiding together in WoW. Two different PCs in the same room. (Well, actually four PCs, but they're complete nerds like that.) You don't need a single TV to play together, you know.

    Not every family has enough complete nerds to warrant budgeting the purchase of a PC for each household member and replacements when new games no longer work and old games are out of print. Some families would even have to buy more PCs than household members if they want to host play dates. Case in point: you can buy an Xbox 360 Elite or a slim PC, a 32" 720p monitor, and extra controllers for 1,200 USD. For the same price, you could buy four Eee PCs, but would their video performance keep up with even the GameCube? And you'd still have to buy a separate copy of each game for each player. (Full disclosure: I babysit my cousins.)

    There's a reason why every single bloody non-portable console ever made had more than one controller socket.

    TurboGrafx-16 had one port (instead using a hub), as did 3DO (instead using daisy-chaining), but that still supports your point.

    You can play together on two PSP's via its built-in wireless network. I would imagine that the same applies to a DS, though sadly I don't own one to check out.

    Many DS games support local multiplayer through "Ni-Fi", a proprietary non-routable layer 3 protocol on top of Wi-Fi. But a lot more DS games have multiplayer through DS Download Play (counterpart of PSP's Game Sharing) than PSP games, which tend to have only a single-player demo if anything at all, so PSP games cost $70 for two copies when a Wii game costs $50 for one.

  32. Magnetic fields = bad by Wookash · · Score: 1

    The joy of the WII controller is that it uses only infrared light, which to my knowledge, has never been shown to be harmful to humans. The idea that all sorts of little children playing video games will endure hours of magnetic field influence on their bodies should scare the Slashdot population. There are numerous cases where magnetic fields emminating from electric lines are blamed for increases in cancer rates, especially amongst children. Exposing children to more magnetic fields is probably a really bad idea. There's another problem of course with magnetic fields, which is that they degrade quickly at the edges. This can lead to significant problems with game play. Having worked on virtual reality systems, I'd experience this often. The key thing is that the user must remain within the field. Though it is a field, so it naurally curves and is inconsistent. This can really hamper multi-player ability since keeping the magnetic field weak not to interfere with other electronics, will limit the size of the field. The other solution is of course to increase the strength of the fields, which could lead to other problems like those mentioned above. This is not new technology in any way, neither is it particularly innovative; no news. That they'd create a controller that is potentially harmful to the audience they're serving, well that's not something I can support.

    1. Re:Magnetic fields = bad by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      The joy of the WII controller is that it uses only infrared light, which to my knowledge, has never been shown to be harmful to humans.

      The Wii uses bluetooth, which is basically radio. A bit like short range wifi. Infrared should actually be more harmful than bluetooth because it uses higher energy photons.

    2. Re:Magnetic fields = bad by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 1

      The idea that all sorts of little children playing video games will endure hours of magnetic field influence on their bodies should scare the Slashdot population. There are numerous cases where magnetic fields emminating from electric lines are blamed for increases in cancer rates, especially amongst children. Exposing children to more magnetic fields is probably a really bad idea.

      Ever heard of natural selection? Expose the population to as many magnetic fields as you can power. Then in a decade of 3 everyone left will be immume. It's the same advice I gave to the lead-paint producers and they would still be in business if they had followed it. But hey, PR said that massive deaths would create a negative image for the company. I told them that's what the marketing departement is for, but they wouldn't listen.

  33. Slight corrections by tepples · · Score: 1

    The NES, Sega Genesis, Neo Geo, N64, and probably other consoles I can't remember have required memory upgrades to play certain games. The Dreamcast, PS2, Original XBOX, XBOX 360, and PS3 have OS updates and game patches. I can't think of any console that offered a processor upgrade off the top of my head (the Jaguar maybe?).

    Sega Genesis had the Sega CD, which contained a processor faster than the one in the Genesis. It also had the 32X, which was about half as powerful as the Saturn. But all "memory upgrades" for the North American and European NES (that is, everything but the Japan-only Famicom Disk System) have been limited to memory chips inside the Game Pak, the same sorts of memory chips used for saved games in Sega Genesis and Super NES carts. And what kinds of user-installable OS updates are you talking about for Dreamcast or PlayStation 2?

    PC gaming used to be dominated by point and click adventure games and flight sims. These genres didn't transition to the consoles, they faded in popularity.

    As far as I know, point-and-click adventures did transition to the DS and Wii. See Hotel Dusk, the Ace Attorney series and Zack and Wiki . Even Myst got ported to DS.

    It's not going to happen unless people stop using PCs or manufacturers refuse to make gaming hardware for PCs.

    Both Microsoft and Logitech make game controllers, but it's hard to buy one with a PC. I just went to HP.com's gaming accessories page and saw only keyboards, mouse, and speakers, not the gamepads that would be useful for two or three people sitting in front of a TV playing an arcade-style game on an HTPC. Dell has them though.

    1. Re:Slight corrections by rtechie · · Score: 1

      But all "memory upgrades" for the North American and European NES (that is, everything but the Japan-only Famicom Disk System) have been limited to memory chips inside the Game Pak,

      I was thinking of the memory upgrades in the carts. It still a hardware upgrade and added to the cost of the carts so I think this counts.

      And what kinds of user-installable OS updates are you talking about for Dreamcast

      I'm may be mistaken here, I was thinking of the memory carts for the Saturn and Genesis.

      PlayStation 2

      Extremely poorly documented, but they were/are there for upgrading backwards-compatibility to the PS1 and other features. The updates were distributed through new games would silently update the OS when the game was played in the drive.

      not the gamepads that would be useful for two or three people sitting in front of a TV playing an arcade-style game

      This is not the style of gameplay that has become fashionable on the PC. Nobody plays "party games" on the PC. Nowadays, it's about online multiplayer which is specifically someone sitting ALONE in from of a PC.

      And PC gamers don't WANT gamepads. Half of the reason they're playing on the PC is so they can use the more precise and complex keyboard+mouse controls. And it's not like there aren't PC gaming pads widely available. Perhaps one of the best is the $20 dongle you can buy for using the wireless XBOX 360 controllers on your PC.

    2. Re:Slight corrections by tepples · · Score: 1

      Nobody plays "party games" on the PC.

      Then for which platform should an indie game developer develop party games?

    3. Re:Slight corrections by rtechie · · Score: 1

      Then for which platform should an indie game developer develop party games?

      The XBOX 360. In an earlier post I mentioned the new Community Games part of XBOX Live that is specifically for indie developers. I'm told Sony has a similar initiative but I'm less familiar with it and I don't know if it's off the ground yet.

  34. Don't get me wrong... by Moraelin · · Score: 1

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying consoles (Wii included) don't have their advantages. In fact, I'm usually on the console side of PC-vs-Consoles flamewars. So I'm not going to argue with you much about the price, etc.

    My main problem is merely with the false dichotomy of, basically, "Wiis are for the whole family, PCs only have Quake-like stuff for antisocial teenagers". It's just plain old not true. The average PC gamer is actually in the 30's nowadays, and even the retired senior citizen extreme is actually on the rise in, say, MMOs. And I fail to see how cooperative gaming, local network or MMO counts as antisocial. That is really my whole problem with the OP's point.

    That said, actually you don't need that expensive a PC to play some games. WoW for example does run semi-acceptably even on an Eee laptop, and there are Youtube videos documenting it. (Only since you mention the Eee in your example.) Admittedly, you won't play Crysis Warhead on that, and even WoW will have some 8 frames per second, but it can be played on it if you must.

    That said, though, you can buy a semi decent PC nowadays for a couple of hundred Euro, and it won't be as handicapped as the Eee. A cheap lowest-end integrated Intel chipset and a proper desktop CPU (as opposed to the underpowered Atom), will run WoW plenty fast. I know people who play it on such low end old computers. So maybe you won't buy 4 of them for your $1200 limit, but two or even three is definitely possible.

    I'm looking on Alternate at the moment to check it -- and it's not even the cheapest internet store -- and I see some decent mini-tower systems for 399 Euro. (Google says that's 539.0091 U.S. dollars, but bear in mind that prices are _including_ a rather large VAT here, so maybe you can get the same cheaper in the USA.) I'm talking stuff like dual-core Athlon 64, a semi-decent ATI or NVidia graphics card, and 1 GB RAM. It's not just plenty enough for WoW, it could even run COH more than acceptably. You could certainly fit two of those under that $1200 limit.

    Again, I'm not dissing consoles in any form or shape. Just saying that a family playing an MMO together is certainly feasible too nowadays. You no longer have to be a millionaire to afford a second computer.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  35. Indie gaming possible elsewhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not really, because indie gaming is possible on Linux, and Linux doesn't only run on PCs.

  36. It's a shame... by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    Sounds like a great controller but it won't benefit from the network effect like the wiimote.

    I finally got a wii, it sat for about 7 months before I finally used it.

    It's okay- I bowl on it. The star trek game seems pretty painful so far.

    What I'd like is a basic RTS. seems like a dream combo.

    I have a 55" screen and control seems fine.

    This new remote is better- but because it is an add on, not a standard feature, it will join a million other great controllers that we don't even remember.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    1. Re:It's a shame... by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      It's okay- I bowl on it. The star trek game seems pretty painful so far.

      What Star Trek game hasn't been painful (not counting the old BASIC text-based Star Trek game)? Try some games that make good use of the Wiimote. From my experience: Boom Blox, Okami, Zelda - Twilight Princess (yes, it's not what it _could_ be, but it's better than several games). It sounds like you were blase about the wii to begin with though; seven months is a long time for a geek to let a new piece of technology sit untested.

    2. Re:It's a shame... by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      The Wii is awesome as a platform. At some points the games I want will be there.

      The selection of games for it, mostly seems to be for people with ADD.

      I have never been a Zelda fan so I'd be coming in late in the story there.

      Raygun rabbits seems like it is for the hyper kinetic.

      Main reason it sat was relationship breakup depression.

      Still fighting it but happy about half the time again.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  37. Monitors cost money too by tepples · · Score: 1

    I'm not saying consoles (Wii included) don't have their advantages. In fact, I'm usually on the console side of PC-vs-Consoles flamewars.

    I'm on the fence, but I wish I were on the HTPC side. Indie developers can self-publish for PC; they can't easily for a console without rewriting the whole game in C# (or a dialect of C++ that looks more like C#), paying $495 extra for 5 years of access to XNA Creators Club, and praying that their game will be included in the next batch of Community Games. On the other hand, there just aren't enough arcade-style games for PCs other than emulators that use either legal ROMs (e.g. Midway Arcade Treasures) or wink-wink-nudge-nudge copies (e.g. most installations of MAME or Nestopia). Yet.

    That said, though, you can buy a semi decent PC nowadays for a couple of hundred Euro, and it won't be as handicapped as the Eee. A cheap lowest-end integrated Intel chipset and a proper desktop CPU (as opposed to the underpowered Atom), will run WoW plenty fast. I know people who play it on such low end old computers. So maybe you won't buy 4 of them for your $1200 limit, but two or even three is definitely possible.

    I included the console's monitor in my $1,200 build. What monitors were you thinking about in your $600 build, other than perhaps a used CRT from a charity thrift store?

    I see some decent mini-tower systems for 399 Euro. (Google says that's 539.0091 U.S. dollars, but bear in mind that prices are _including_ a rather large VAT here, so maybe you can get the same cheaper in the USA.)

    Subtract the typical 20% VAT in Europe and add a 7% VAT typical of the United States, and $480 or so still doesn't leave a lot of room for a monitor and the required second copy of a bunch of games.

    1. Re:Monitors cost money too by Moraelin · · Score: 1

      1. Looking through Alternate again, I see a 17" TFT at 92 euro. Again, you'll probably want to do the VAT trick and all that. It'll fit under 600 per computer total.

      It's only a TN, and only 1440x900 resolution, so you probably don't want to do graphics processing on it, but it'll play WoW all right.

      2. And a second copy of an MMO won't really break the bank these days either.

      You can get a copy of COH/COV for 2 Euro more than the price of a month, and it includes a "free" month. So essentially you're getting the game for 2 Euros.

      WoW without any expansion packs costs the same (actually, 4 cents cheaper;), and again it does include a "free" month. Add some 15 Euro and you get the Burning Crusade too. It's manageable.

      3. Also note that I didn't pick the cheapest computers there. If your finances are that tight, I see a 350 Euro one right on the front page of their list. It's only integrated graphics, but, again, it'll play WoW all right. Still 1 GB RAM, though, and a dual-core Intel.

      On the second page, there's a HP at 279 Euro, but it's not in stock and it has no technical data, so personally I wouldn't order that one.

      Page 4, there's a 319 Euro one, integrated graphics. (There's also the 299 version, but without OS, so let's ignore that one.)

      And so on. You can probably save a bit there, if you want a better monitor instead.

      4. That said, look, let's get it out of the way: I'm not saying that PCs are the cheapest version, nor even the "better" version. If you want the best bang per buck, sure, go with a console. By all means.

      I'm just saying that family PC gaming is (A) _feasible_ too, even for people who aren't extremely rich, and most importantly (B) there's nothing antisocial or teenager-only about it. That's really all.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  38. What devices? by tepples · · Score: 1
    Anonymous Coward wrote:

    Not really, because indie gaming is possible on Linux, and Linux doesn't only run on PCs.

    A lot of devices sold to home users that run Linux have no display beyond a couple LEDs, such as a router. Set-top devices that run Linux tend to be Tivoized, meaning they run only binaries that have been digitally signed by the adversary, making them not much different from a major video game console and definitely incompatible with GPLv3 apps and LGPLv3 libraries. The rest are either PCs (such as ASUS Eee PC or Dell's N series) or phones (such as T-Mobile G1), as I already mentioned. What kinds of devices were you thinking of?

  39. Most unfortunate. by thezig2 · · Score: 1

    It does the Wiimote's job, only better. The problem is that it's being marketed toward the PC, where it won't sell because developers won't support it. The only games it'll work well on are low-budget titles or console ports where you can control the entire game with just the remote. The worst part is that once this (decent) product gets patented, we won't see the technology again for 10 years after its initial failure.

  40. Linux by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

    If this works on Linux than I would want one. I have bought a Wiimote for my desktop but it is far from precise and just works like shit.

    In order for these kind of controllers, or any other new controller for that matter, to be usable and adopted in games we would need a new kind of API that can integrate in games.

    This input API should have the following basics:
    -Buttons (for remotes, controllers and keyboard)
    -Fixed directions with limited range (for example unlimited amount of x and y axises for analog sticks and joysticks)
    -Fixed directions with continuous/unlimited range (like x, y and z axis (x and y for the mouse and x, y and z for Wii-like controllers))

    Only then would game designers and developers be able to use this kind of technology.

    --
    Here be signatures
  41. Not totally useless by Strych9 · · Score: 1

    Thats nice,

    We have been doing exactly this in our lab at the University since 2005 with magnetic fields and have the publications to prove it.

    We have been using and developing our system for rehabilitation since the Wii and even that controller cannot be used properly for that purpose. Yes I've seen them in hospitals but they only have limited use.

    They are of no use when it comes to fine movement rehabilitation.

    When did these guys file their patent?

  42. not necessarily by Trepidity · · Score: 1

    One of the most successful indie games of 2008, Braid, was sold via XBox Live.

  43. You must be at least this tall to develop by tepples · · Score: 1

    But can I run indie games on a PS3 or Wii without exploiting bugs in the OS to get unsigned code to run?

    Not sure what you're trying to get at here. You can install games from your disc onto some consoles now. Some games see performance improvements, some do not. No, maybe you can't run all indie games on your PS3 or Wii, but you may not be able to do that on your PC either.

    Say I wanted to run Tux Racer or Frozen Bubble or StepMania or Lockjaw on a Wii console. I couldn't even begin to port it because the console verifies the cryptographic digital signature of all software running on it, and Nintendo doesn't make signing keys available to developers below a certain size. This blocks 1. free software and 2. proprietary software developed by a microISV. But in order to grow, the microISV has to publish a first title somehow, and it would appear that the only platform available to startup companies is either a PC running Windows, Mac OS X, or Linux, or a mobile phone.

    If you enjoy local multiplayer, sure, the console would probably be the way to go.

    What should I do if I enjoy local multiplayer but also enjoy mods?

    And believe it or not, some PC games do allow you to do local multiplayer on the same PC.

    As I see it, the niche of HTPC gaming has been underserved. True, I could use MAME, Serious Sam, or Madden NFL. But have you any recommendations of games to try, other than emulators of questionably legal ROMs, M-rated titles, or EA sport sims?

    remember though, if you want to do local multiplayer with a console, it allows only up to four people.

    But four is much greater than one, and it's rare that more than four people want to play the same game at once. When I host the game room at my extended family's annual party, I typically bring two TVs, two consoles, and eight controllers, and I imagine a lot of families have the same needs as I.

    1. Re:You must be at least this tall to develop by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      I wasn't just sure what you were entirely trying to get at. I had a momentary lapse of judgement and wanted to think that most indie games that were worth more than a grain of salt came out on the consoles anyway, but I just realized what a stupid position that is to hold.

      What should I do if I enjoy local multiplayer but also enjoy mods?

      Deal with it? Both platforms have their faults and strengths. Consoles won't be an open platform for a long time. Some games are allowing you to do some sort of modding, but you're really not making an entirely different type of game with those tools. They just allow you to make more of the same in slightly different ways.

      But have you any recommendations of games to try, other than emulators of questionably legal ROMs, M-rated titles, or EA sport sims?

      Audiosurf has a two player mode. Uhh, I think both Shadowgrounds and Shadowgrounds: Survivor have some sort of two player option. Well, one of them does. I don't exactly remember the extent of those off the top of my head. I'm sure there are plenty more. Hell, when I was younger my friends and I used to do point and click adventures together. Some of them had some tricky questions or puzzles we'd try to figure out together. That was a lot of fun.

      But four is much greater than one, and it's rare that more than four people want to play the same game at once. When I host the game room at my extended family's annual party, I typically bring two TVs, two consoles, and eight controllers, and I imagine a lot of families have the same needs as I.

      My point was that if you needed more than 4 players (not all games are like this thankfully) you will have to have extra things. I would like to see more options for local play in the same area on the PC. It's certainly doable, but the stigma of it not being doable won't be shaken off any time soon.

  44. Ubiquity is essential by thehunger · · Score: 1

    Even if the hardware turns out to be superior, that doesn't translate into success. For this thing to succeed, it needs lots of users buying it and lots of top-notch games requiring it or at least using its features. Bundling it with one game isn't going to cut it. Why do we hear about this this way, instead of Sony announcing future PS3's will feature these controllers (and current PS3's will work with them) ?

  45. It's a PC controller.... by MistrBlank · · Score: 1

    It will fail.

    The best way to get market penetration would be to go with making it a console controller.

  46. What's missing...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looking at the video, the guy has problems with a simple bat-and-ball game. Why? No depth perception. The Wiimote's inaccuracy is in line with the inaccuracy in player perception. Unfortunately, the guy playing this is interacting with a word that he can't fully perceive.

    This device will be great -- once they integrate it with stereoscopic video.

    HAL