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Do Nice Engineers Finish Last In Tough Times?
jammag writes "As the wave of pink slips is starting to resemble Robespierre and his guillotine, the maneuvering among tech professionals to hang on to their job is getting ugly. IT Management describes the inter-office competition between the manager of a server farm and the supervisor of networks and security. One was nice, giving his team members credit, taking responsibility when something went wrong. The other was a backstabber who spent plenty of time sucking up to the management. As the inevitable cuts came, who do you think hung on to their job?"
Do Nice Engineers Finish Last In Tough Times?
Why, just the other day, a coworker was in contention for a promotion that was going to a younger engineer. My coworker found the specs to the younger engineer's car online and determined the precise rate it would have to leak coolant to completely drain the reserve tank precisely when he was leaving home to make an important customer meeting the next morning. I saw him on a crawl board attaching the regulator and a valve system in the parking lot and sure enough it overheated at precisely the right time so our customer just sat their waiting.
It's a calculate-or-be-calculated world out there!
My work here is dung.
Hot tip: not every tech professional is an "engineer," the least of which being IT professionals and "network engineers." What a diluted title.
Ability will never catch up with the demand for it.
If the management above is unable to see which of the two in the example is worth keeping, perhaps it's not the best place to work anyway, as it looks like politics makes up more of the workload than engineering. I'm reasonably sure that engineers are engineers because they DO NOT want to be politicians.
Of course, there is always the fix the coolant leakage rate solution, mix that with the faked IP and filesharing solution and things get entertaining while you are passing out your resume.
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For wasting company time being nice.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
They're about networking, social skills, and shameless self-promotion.
People like me, and I suspect most geeks on slashdot, want to be judged on our merits, but the fact is in most cases we won't be. So yes, nice engineers do finish last.
Why not make lemonade from lemons and accept a layoff? If you're financially stable with few or no obligations such as family, mortgage, etc. and you've had a reasonable work history why not just collect unemployment until you can find a decent-paying gig?
You won't make as much money, true, but if you satisfy the above conditions you'll probably make enough to afford food and a roof. You'll be able to sleep in every day, go to the gym, work on personal projects, go out on dates, and much more! It's not like you're being lazy or anything -- "the economy" is a very acceptable excuse for not having a job, at least until the economy goes back into full swing.
Yes we do, once we figure out that we need to pretend to be assholes until they fall for us, then it's ok to be nice...
/Mikael
Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
As an Engineer I believe my ethics are just as important as any other skill I may have. You should too. If a company I worked for didn't see that in me I would probably be working somewhere else anyway. You do have the ability to look for other employment while at your current job. If you have been at your job for any length of time, they will know you, both personally and professionally. If there is anything to worry about, they already knew it BEFORE anyone stabbed your back. A wise man told me once, "If a company wants you, they will do anything in their power to keep you. If they don't like you, they will do anything to get rid of you. This includes "bending the rules"".
"Computers are a lot like Air Conditioners" "They both work great until you start opening Windows"
Is this even a supposedly true story? I'm not sure what we're supposed to conclude from n=1 cases of what appears to be a parable.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Unfortunately that works.
As the inevitable cuts came, who do you think hung on to their job?
The cute receptionist?
Some managers value competence, some mangers don't. Doesn't really change with the times.
There will always be companies and individuals that favor short term gains instead of focusing on long-term goals. Letting the good manager go for a bad one can only lead to revolt. While they may not necessarily all follow the good manager when he leaves, his team will all certainly be looking for another opportunity even in this economy because they all know they will be next to go if something goes wrong regardless if it was their fault.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
And occasionally, a nice engineer can't cope with it anymore and takes a shotgun to work.
I think that the whole premise of the question is false. The question being asked is whether nice guys who share credit and accept responsibility will get axed in favor of mean guys who steal credit and ID scapegoats.
I actually RTFA (I know, a /. blasphemy) and I don't think that is a valid question. According to the article, the reason "Doug" got the job and "Staurt" the nice guy got fired is that Doug went to their boss and made a case for why it would be better for the boss and the company to retain him instead of Stuart. Now his reasoning was flawed, but Stuart never made such a case. He just assumed that he got fired because he was the nice guy.
Being a nice guy (sharing credit, accepting responsibility) and valuable employee (recognizing your manager's needs and supporting them, being politically aware and astute) are not mutually exclusive.
What Stuart should have done is said "that I am well respected by my team, I keep a mature and professional attitude when mistakes are made (not like Doug who yells at his team). In this uncertain time after layoffs are announced, the remaining people will be nervous and perhaps looking to leave on their own terms. Kelly, I'll make sure that the remaining team stays on target, and achieves all goals, so you look good. Doug said that I cannot make the tough decisions, but look, I've come to you with cogent and well reasoned reasons to layoff the required people in my team, as you requested. I can make the tough decisions, but in a way that keeps the remaining team morale up and productive."
Now Stuart may have actually said that, but TFA doesn't say so. Instead we're left to assume that he just figured as a nice guy he lost his job.
Nice or mean doesn't have much to do with it, being politically aware and understanding office dynamics is everything.
-"Those who fought today will die tommorow."-
Of course you can always find an anecdotal counterexample, but the one time I decided I wanted to get someone out of a management position that was interfering with my job, it wound up backfiring hugely (the situation was *worse* after I succeeded) and on a personal level it's something I regret to this day.
On the other hand, every time I've come into a job situation and behaved with honesty and integrity, it's worked out well for me. And I get to sleep at night.
So take your pick.
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I have over the years read several articles about who the most successful CEO's are, those that are humble. When things go well, they give credit to the "team". When things go bad they take the blame. I think in the long run nice guys finish first. You can not trust someone who is a backstabber.
The sad reality is that it's both- but for different types of garbage.
With capitalism, the liar rises regardless of whether or not times are tough.
With bureaucracy, the brownnoser rises regardless of whether or not times are tough.
Thus if you're an honest individual who doesn't give a shit what people think of you, you'll always end up unemployed.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
The plural of anecdote is bullshit.
Nice guys finish last in all times. The "nice guy" who finishes last is very likely diffident, afraid to take risks, refuses to stand up for himself, shies from taking credit for their work, and avoids confrontation. These guys finish last. The "jerks" and "assholes" who succeed stand up for themselves, take credit for themselves, and are not shy about confronting those in their paths. The nice guys get run over by these assholes and then post on the Internet how how unfair life is.
I got this insight from my female roommate. Men would complain about how they are nice guys but girls always go for assholes. But these nice guys either never asked girls out, or even worse, wanted to be bad guys but just did not have the guts to do it. She related the story about a self-professed nice guy who got drunk, and started to feel her up even though she made it clear she was not interested.
So you can try to get everyone to like you or you can try to get what you think you deserve. It is very rare to be able to get what you want without stepping on any toes. You can be nice and polite, but if you are competing with someone for a job, the loser is not going to like you at all.
Hope this helps.
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
Do you know why the management of engineers seems stupid even if those managers might be fairly capable? It's because the level above them is the real problem.
Lower management might contain a few ex-engineers that actually do have a clue. The levels above that generally consist of business types that wouldn't know a hammer from a saw if their lives depended on it. However, those guys make the targets, the rules and the policy. And lower management has to carry them out, without question. They are spat on from above and spat on from below, they really can't win.
Don't blame lower management, blame the real culprits: MBA types.
Hunh. That must explain why I'm living on the streets instead of in a nice house in a nice neighborhood. Oh, wait! No! I am living in the nice house. And I didn't stab anybody in the back to get it. Nor, for that matter, is my business acumen the reason I'm in the nice house - in fact, it's basically just good fortune.
I'm not saying that there's no value in hard work, or in any of the other things we do on the job. But I'm sufficiently ancient at this point to have seen a lot of comings and goings, and the fact is that prosperity and [insert name of business tactic here] are largely orthogonal. If you don't have any talent, sure, maybe being an asshole is your only hope. Or maybe you should just go do what you really want to do and stop screwing around in a job you aren't suited for.
I hear this repeated over and over.
I'm sorry, but "networking" is not the ticket to success in a technical career. In a technical career, knowing your shit is simply far more important.
If you count "networking" as your most important skill, you probably work in management, sales, or some other NONtechnical position.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
The summary makes it out to be a choice between the evil, cold-blooded manager (Doug) and the warm, fatherly teamleader (Steve). As much as we all like to see the black-white picture, I'm frankly sick with it -- do we need to have Slashdot become the Cosmo Girl for Nerds?
With a clear suppressor and an underdog, this can also be painted another way.
Kelly is the manager of the above two here. She was in a very tight spot and felt very alone, with noone to rely on. When asked for employee ratings, Steve unresponsively turned his back to her, just following orders. However, when Doug came along, he offered a listening ear and offered suggestions of his own. He showed that he could think along, offer support as well as make tough decisions -- just the person she needed.
*yawn* See how boring this black-and-white stuff gets?
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
Whether "nice" finishes last depends on your understanding of "nice". The more common usage is a people-pleaser who means well but cannot help operating out of a position of weakness because he thinks that happiness and fulfillment and completion come from other people (i.e. their approval and acceptance). To take on this nature is to be a leaf in the wind, always at the mercy of other people who themselves do not (yet) see their beliefs and full actions (with no exceptions) as choices. This is actually a form of slavery and it works because ignorance of the higher way prevents people from seeing that it is bondage. This idea taken to its full expression is unfortunately what most people think love is, when in reality its most healthy expression (which is still enslaving) is nothing more than a mutually agreed trade like those found in any market ("you're nice to me so I am nice to you").
The less common usage is well beyond mere courtesy and is more like an act of love. This is a person who has kindness and compassion for its own sake because cultivating these is pure joy. When you have this, there is no concern for outcomes or results because you realize that all of us are equal and must come to our own understanding at our own pace and in the fullness of our own time. There is no need to control and there is no need for this type of loving-kindness to be reciprocated. Reciprocated or not, the mere expression of it is pure joy and it is complete in and of itself. Everything is filled to the brim with nothing missing and there is no need to get upset (and thus cause suffering over) the non-ideal. It is the truly pure motive, in that even the exquisite joy of it is not done for the sake of experiencing joy. This is the type of person who finds possibilities and opportunities where there are none; the one for whom all actions and all speech are expressions of an ultimately simple and self-evident Truth. With this understanding, you feel that you yourself are not doing or saying anything. It is more like you find or observe yourself saying or doing this-and-that and it happens to be the best thing you could have said or done at the time, certainly far better than the result of any kind of deductive process. An engineer or anyone else who has this need not worry about things like tough times because he or she is free of the slavery that makes someone a victim of circumstance.
The only thing that is regrettable, or something like regrettable, is that most people live their entire lives without ever knowing the difference. It is not so complicated that most people cannot understand it. It is so incredibly utterly simple that most people overlook it out of a belief that they themselves should be doing something or seeking something or becoming something.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
...telling his boss that mistakes that his employees made were his mistakes was not very smart.
Atleast that is how I read his actions.
Stuart should have been 100% honest. Lying to his bosses about who screwed up didn't help anyone in the end.
Well, it helped Doug.
Not saying throw the employee under the bus. Be cool, be honest, and tell it like it is.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
I would say the ruthless rather than the liar tends to rise in capitalism. Which doesn't mean that a decent, competent company can't do well, but they can be threatened by the ruthless company. Usually the demise of a good company at the hands of a ruthless company comes about through government collusion. For example, Ruthless Inc. spends the time and money to bribe lawmakers to legislate that Ruthless Inc's software is the new standard for official government widgets. Now DecentCorp's DiscoWidget app has no buyers. Ruthless Inc. buys the dregs of DecentCorp and sends the former employees to the salt mines.
Capitalism gets a bad rap, but sometimes that bad rap is more the direct result of centralized government's intervention rather than lack thereof. Sometimes not--witness Madoff's hedge fund.
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
whoosh
Bullshit on all of this. You can be ruthless and honorable at the same time. Actually, there are times when being honorable (aka nice) demands that one be ruthless.
Just don't be selfless. There's no shame in taking credit where it's due, the same as there's no shame in exercising and going out to meet "pretty girls". There's also no shame in calling someone out on their bullshit. Don't play politics, go to war.
"Nice guy" is just a euphemism for "gutless", the same as "bad guy" is the same for "self-centered". A lot can be said for taking the middle ground.
p.s. - those of us who understand this not only get to kiss the hot chicks, we get to fuck them as well. And occasionally have a meaningful relationship to boot.
PC moderators can suck my White pierced, tattooed dick. If you think pride == hate, s/dick/Aryan meat mallet/g.
I got this insight from my female roommate. Men would complain about how they are nice guys but girls always go for assholes. But these nice guys either never asked girls out, or even worse, wanted to be bad guys but just did not have the guts to do it. She related the story about a self-professed nice guy who got drunk, and started to feel her up even though she made it clear she was not interested.
I'm not clear on the message here. Nice guy turns into jerk and feels up uninterested girl. Since chicks dig jerks, she must have liked it right? If she didn't like it, would the guy have been better off staying nice? If so, that would conflict with your major premise.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
SOMEONE has to fix the problems that those other people create. And the best way for them to handle it is to bring you in as a consultant/contractor.
Particularly in the company featured in TFA. Why didn't Kelly know that Doug was taking credit for things he wasn't responsible for?
In an economic downturn, I'd stick with the nice people because they ARE nice. You cannot afford to have them leave and take the business knowledge that is locked in their heads with them.
The employees will know that their boss is a backstabbing bastard and they will react accordingly. The talented ones will look for other jobs. The people-not-in-the-talented-ones-group will remain behind. The company will suffer.
Actually, in most jobs, they're both important. There's two lessons that the "smart kids" generally have to learn later in their lives (some have to figure it out in college, some get by a little longer). One is that unlike in grade school, smarts along won't put you in the upper echelon. You have to work hard, and you have to network. It's a big world, and no matter how smart you are, there's a guy out there who's at least as is talented as you and harder working. And there's a guy out there who's at least as smart as you and better at networking.
The point is that(especially in rough economic times) there's often more than enough smarts available to fill the demand. Being technically competent is certainly important, but unless you're in some very rare position where no one else is equally competent (or convincingly close), you've got some equally competent competition out there. Taking the time to develop some social and political business skills is not a wasteful investment in yourself.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
Having been on a few sinking ships, I haven't found that to be the case. What I've seen, oddly, is the opposite. People get nicer once the realize there's no future in it for anyone. At that point, it becomes about who remembers you and how, and whether they can get you into wherever they land next.
At a certain point, it just becomes collecting your paycheck until its your turn. No point in being a dick about it.
And who says you aren't being judged on your merits? Or did never occur to you that the real world might value things differently than your insular little self absorbed haven?
It's not a matter of nice or not nice, whether you're a network "engineer" or a degreed PE. The people who finish last are the people who will accept being put in last place.
Those that can, do. Those that can't but speak up, still do. Those that don't speak up, whether they can or can't do, are the ones who get the shaft.
Toot your own horn when it's necessary but don't overdo it. Toot other people's horns when it's necessary, but don't overdo it. Do your job and make sure at least one skip above you understand that you're a valuable member of the team and you'll be fine in most cases.
"Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
I would say the ruthless rather than the liar tends to rise in capitalism. Which doesn't mean that a decent, competent company can't do well, but they can be threatened by the ruthless company. Usually the demise of a good company at the hands of a ruthless company comes about through government collusion. For example, Ruthless Inc. spends the time and money to bribe other firms and standards bodies to require Ruthless Inc's software as the new standard for given widgets. Now DecentCorp's DiscoWidget app has no buyers unless DecentCorp licences from Ruthless In.. Ruthless Inc. buys the dregs of DecentCorp and sends the former employees to the salt mines.
Capitalism gets a bad rap, but sometimes that bad rap is more the direct result of centralized government's intervention rather than lack thereof.
Of course, government intervention is only incidental, and is not required for this sort of maneuvering at all. (thus some fixes I made to your original scenario)
For every government intervention which leads to problems like this, There are equal or greater evils to be had from lack of government intervention.
Smart regulation is the proper answer.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Aside from the fact that your post is a load of horseshit, I suppose that you didn't step up to the plate by telling management what you witnessed.
And, incidentally, once the youngster took his car to the shop to be repaired, the tampering would have been discovered, and your fictional coworker would have been thrown in jail (hmm just where did this after market valve and regulator come from anyway?). In most states tampering with an automobile is a felony.
Alright alright, I need to come clean ... I embellished on this story a little bit. Here's the truth:
I was going to tell my boss but when I walked in, the coworker I was ratting out was on his knees with a mouthful of my boss and I think he said, "Oh hai!" I didn't stick around to clarify, I just left.
And it wasn't a car, it was a hovercraft. And it wasn't a regulator & valve, it was a detonator & C4. And he wasn't late for a meeting, he died. And don't worry about the law, Virginia isn't a state it's a commonwealth.
I feel almost relieved to get that off my chest and to come clean with you. I think I answered all your questions truthfully and fairly. Hopefully, together you and I can keep the internet a sound unbiased source of nothing but the unadulterated truth and historic account of everything.
You've helped me help myself. I love you.
My work here is dung.
deflation increases the cost to employee workers as well as the value of currently held debt. You'll find yourself out of a job and nobody left to buy that super cheap food from in the worst case scenario deflationary economy.
Same deal with employment. If your company/IT department think like a singles bar looking for one night stands and will screw over each other and customers for a quick buck then being nice means nothing and you need to out-asshole the others to get ahead.
If, instead, your company/IT department are there to build long-term relationships, satisfying service and repeat business, then being nice is very important.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
You might want to look into some of the game theory behind all this. Basically, nice guys (cooperators) hang together and get a lot more done because they can trust each other. This behavior is vulnerable to exploitation by manipulative assholes (defectors). Nice guys can defend themselves against this by being picky about who they cooperate with, and seeking out others with a reputation as nice guys.
In essence, nice guys win if they ostracize assholes and learn to hold a grudge. If you're an asshole, you better be really good at it, because you're going to run out of suckers really quick. It's nice to know that ethical behavior is actually a sound strategy.
Deflation is not a "silver lining" - it results in a positive feedback loop that craters the economy. Some deflation is okay, but when deflation accelerates, people stop buying--so the prices continue to free-fall.
Runaway inflation is bad. Runaway deflation is almost as bad.
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
Not all 'nice guys' are wimpy. You can be a nice guy AND be assertive, stand up for yourself, take risks, and take credit for your own work. Heck, you can even be part of a confrontation and still be nice. This IS being nice and perhaps even honest. A person who can't do any of the above is a wimp. wimp!=nice guy.
Now, a 'douchebag' would be a guy that takes credit for others' work, is confrontational, puts everyone else down, and takes risks that put others in jeopardy. Some people like being douchebags, and some people just like douchebags.
go figure.
You CAN win and be an honest, stand-up guy. You won't if you are a wimp, and douchebags never win, even if it looks like they do.
I've hired wimps, douchehbags, and stand-up people. When the time came to let them go, the douchebags and wimps went first. Stand-up people went last, but they got great references and any assistance I could give them. That, in the end, is winning.
Toil is Stupid. Don't be Stupid.
he didn't say "worst case." the missing bit is that it is far more difficult to enter extreme deflation than extreme inflation. How many cases of extreme deflation have there been in history? not many. so you present me with phantom fears versus the palpable threat posed by hyperinflation.
"If still these truths be held to be
Self evident."
-Edna St. Vincent Millay
Networking is not the same as being polite. Being polite is good.
Networking is the deliberate act of socializing with a large number of people in the off chance that one day one of them will offer you a sweet deal/job just because you talked about sports with him at a bar one night.
I have never had any particular trouble getting job interviews just by sending my resume to someone who was looking to fill a position (found online). Bullshitting about politics after hours had zero to do with getting those interviews.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
There's more insight in this person's post than is first apparent.
The fast and easy promotions through a company are usually grabbed up by people who have nearly no history. In many companies, you are golden until tarnished: once tarnished, you are never golden again.
If you're an old-timer, you probably have too many years to have never stumbled. Whether the fall was your own, a product of blame diversion, or inherited from predecessors is probably not even considered in the eyes of the decision makers.
"Nice Guy", "Asshole" those are all relative terms depending on which side of the layoff you are on.
You are hired by a business to advance that business (either save more money or make more money), not to play feel good with your fellow employees. It is best to be honest and do your job with integrity, in other words do what is best for the business without compromising your ideals. Never cover up or take the blame for others, if your fellow employees are having difficulties then teach them how do to better within the context of the business. If they still have problems it could possibly mean that employee is not cut out for the position that they got or they are not a good fit for the company. It benefits no one to keep someone in a position they are not qualified to do, in fact in most cases things eventually get ugly as everyone gets more and more frustrated. Business is business, you go to work every day to do business not to socialize. That does not mean that you cannot be fair, honest and open with the people you work with though. When the cuts come I guarantee your boss is going to be looking at who in the department helped to promote the business the most, not who was the nicest or who was the biggest asshole.
If bad management is so prevalent, to the point of being near universal, maybe its time to revisit the concept of management itself.
Are systems that (despite superficial changes) originated in the mills of the 19th century and the simple production lines really suitable for modern, rapidly changing, information-heavy companies?
Its fine enough reading Dilbert and mocking the PHBs, but what are you going to do about it?
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
Capitalism (and Socialism for that matter) are more general ideas than fully fledged systems. Compare countries that call themselves capitalistic and you'll find massive deviations in how their laws and regulations work in practice.
Any economic, social and/or political structure that do not prohibit the ruthless from profiting at the expense of the decent will create long term consequences that could impact their society negatively. Perhaps the multinational corporation is better at generating profit for their shareholders over a relatively short span of years; but does that in the end provide a greater value for the society as a whole than your local store. Is it really of benefit to purchase cheap goods if those goods turn out to me made from vastly inferior, or toxic, materials. Of course the ruthless will lie, cheat, bribe and blackmail to ensure their products continue to sell; even if they know said product is a health risk. As long as they manage to keep a sliver of denyability they'll rather sell toxic shit than risk cutting into their profit. Hell some corporations rather spend millions each year denying the problems with their products than to spend even a penny more to developing something that is actually safe.
Oh and by the way lead isn't poisonous; that is just propaganda. Come down to Friendly Freds Lead Retailer for everything from Lead Toothpaste to Lead Bread. If it is Lead; It's Fred. If it ain't Fred is probably a communist hippy that want to sell you anti-freedom vares.
The Long Now Foundation
> As the inevitable cuts came, who do you think hung on to their job?
I was in a contract with a great boss where I had to educate someone as a backup and knew he would eventually become my replacement. Now I could have stonewalled and tricked him, but being a professional I documented everything to a high-standard, walked him through and mentored him well. I figured I'd already proved my worth to the firm, and anyway jobs weren't that hard to find.
So took an pre-agreed holiday, came back and was told my contract was canceled. As it turns out, jobs are no longer easy to find.
So I'd never do that again. It sucks, but if you have to choose between "doing the right thing" and survival, always choose survival.
but it is far harder to stay in such a deflationary loop than it is to stay in an inflationary loop. This is especially true when our leaders like the populace foolishly conflate the medium of exchange with the resources being exchanged. It leads to massive "stimulus" packages that enrich cronies and further impoverish the average person by misallocating labor.
It also leads to burning produce whilst people starve to create a false scarcity to prop up prices. perhaps if there hadn't been so much government intervention to drive up production of food for WWI, there wouldn't have been a perceived need to intervene again to "fix" the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_Adjustment_Act
And I can't find it online just now, but my high school us history book had a picture of an orange crop being burned during the depression.
"If still these truths be held to be
Self evident."
-Edna St. Vincent Millay
Reading that simile was like marinating a walnut in talcum powder.
At the bottom of the
It's been working for me for years...
I also find that it helps to think of simple harmonic motion and differential equations when doing the dance of romance:
1) You can't be an asshole all the time.
2) You need to work out how to sync your nice/nasty streaks with her moods and harmoniously move from one to the other.
Does it go on forever?
Can you recommend a resource for learning personal skills and politics? Books or something? How does one do this, exactly? Just show up for meetings and be nice to people?
This kind of reminds me when a dorky buddy of mine suddenly became an expert in "The Game". He went from tolerable dork to "call the cops" creepy in a matter of weeks amongst female company. I can imagine a similar technically proficient but socially mal-adjusted IT guy making a similar transformation when they try to apply their engineering problem solving skills to office politics.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
There is no such thing as a non-management position. Unless you have a better than normal manager, most managers want you to not only do your technical job, but want you to do their job as well. At that recent interview I mentioned, the person who would be my manager complained so many IT people just sit at their desk and do their job instead of interacting with the business units, managing their own projects etc. He said he was overburdened, and without saying so he was obviously implying he was looking for the people under him to take a lot of that burden from him. Years ago when there were layoffs at a large company I was at, one of the managers also said people who just sat at their desks and did their job as opposed to schmoozing and all of that were at risk.
That you need some base level of technical knowledge goes without saying. But the people who brown-nose managers, who inquire what the business units want and who are held in high regard by the managers and leads of the other prominent business units etc. are who stays when there are layoffs. Within every company there is a coterie of managers, leads and top IT people who may as well be a lead or manager, and you are either in it or you are not. If you are not, you are susceptible to the ax.
I have seen a lot of self-delusion on Slashdot and among IT people as to there being a gap between hard-working people who know their shit (which the person considering this always thinking they're part of this group) and slackers who are incompetent. Which is standard. But you are going beyond even this and saying technical knowledge is everything, and brown-nosing managers and schmoozing other managers and leads means little or nothing. You may find this is not the case the hard way. I have seen two tough times in this field - from about 2002-2003, and another one which started last year and will end in who knows. Finding out that you are wrong may be a very painful lesson.
In some other post someone was mentioning how things work under capitalism etc. And so they were right. Someone who thinks their technical skill is all-important, and who doesn't see how those who brown-nose managers and schmooze with other managers and leads get ahead, is certainly going to be blind to the workings of the overall economic system. Because such things are intertwined with the economic system to some extent. But if someone can't see the obvious about who people who brown-nose managers get ahead of more technically competent personnel, than going into any of the broader stuff is pointless.
It doesn't. If you go back to being a "nice guy", she will give you the cold shoulder soon enough.
Not that that means it would be better to be an asshole.
Be a real man with integrity and backbone instead. The best of all worlds. Women will love you.
You have to be consistently excellent -- you can't just put on an act, then fall back to some wussy, wimpy old self.
Networking is an important skill. This is because you are essentially dealing with people no matter what your job is. The addage that "It's not what you know but who you know." is true. There is no escaping it. You can be the bee's knees on a subject, but if you don't make the right connections, then you won't be able to pick up the next job when the time comes up.
Being good at your job is important now. Being able to network is important when moving on.
For example. I worked my way up from answering phones to being in charge of a 2000 seat campus by a combination of learning new skills from a range of experienced techs. Then (due in part to the smooth running of the site, and due to having made friends with the regional manager) I was asked to monitor the health of the regions equipment. Now I was in charge of 500 switches, 50 routers and 80 servers. Monitoring their general wellbeing. I was able to get the jump on around 50% of errors by watching anomalies before they became a problem. Something that takes reasonable technical skill. (Yes, any charlie can read a log, but reading 80 of them daily and filtering for weird stuff takes some perl.)
Then sweeping changes occurred to that technical team and most of the operation was to be outsourced, my job included. I could have stayed on as a contractor working on the same system, but due to my networking skills, was able to use this to land a promotion. I am now working on a network 10 times the original size doing really cool stuff.
The moral of the story is tech out the wazoo will only get you so far. Networking is a skill that will get you further.
A sig is placed here
To display how futile
English Haiku is
So in the example, the nice guy gets fired and that back stabber gets promoted.
Well, 5 years down the road, the backstabber is also fired, while the "nice guy" found a job through one of his former coworkers who thought he was amazing and good to work with (the guy was good but also made him look better!) The backstabber, can't find work, and has no references.
Being nice or moral isn't generally filled with short term benefits (which is why it's contrasted with greedy!), but in the long term can yield very good results.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
But think I started valuing *myself*.
Look, there's quite a difference between being assertive and being an ass. Being passive and being nice is also not the same.
Communication skills are very important in the modern company. I don't care who you are---the days of the lone wolf are long gone, if they ever truly happened in the first place.
Be willing to stand up for yourself. Treat others with respect, and take pride in your work. Make sure others know who you are and your value.
It's not backstabbing. It's healthy human interaction. And it'll lead to you having more respect higher up and among your peers.
The nice vs. mean question is a false dichotomy, and being strong doesn't have to imply you're an ass.
Dragging people kicking and screaming into reality since 1996.
One of the things ascribed to the "nice guy" that is presumed to hurt them is that they take responsibility for failures.
A lot of organizations with political problems have a sort of "blame-oriented" culture. When something goes wrong, someone has to be blamed, and that person must be made to suffer. This is, of course, bad, because it focuses on punishing someone rather than solving the problem.
Sometimes in such an organization, you can actually gain power by accepting blame. When a problem is brought up and the group is obviously going on the hunt for a scapegoat, sometimes you can stand up and say "I'll take responsibility for that," define the problem as you see it, and spell out what you intend to do about it. This can be so shocking to the other people that they don't know what to do about it, and thus there's no punishment. This is particularly true if you do this in a context where it's clear that you're not actually to blame for the problem, you're just accepting responsibility for it anyway.
This can have several positive effects:
1) You are seen as someone who isn't afraid to stand up and be responsible, a leader.
2) You are seen as a force for positive action, a bringer of solutions.
3) You get to be in charge of whatever it is, even if you might not normally have been in charge of it. If you want to do so, you can expand your realm of authority in this manner.
Sometimes when you do this, one or more people who are particularly blame focused will notice you said you're "responsible", not "to blame", and start questioning you to determine if you actually caused the problem or someone else did (maybe someone who works for you) so they can try to find someone to blame and harm. When this happens, I say something like "The important thing here is not that we affix blame and punish someone, the important part is that we solve the problem for the organization so we can move on and stop suffering the consequences. If you want someone to blame, blame me. I care more about getting the job done than about my image." If they try to pursue it, it makes them look like a fool in front of everyone else. If they try to go after a member of my staff, I say something to the effect of "I am responsible for my team, so if this problem is their fault, it's my fault. If I feel that any member of my team is failing to perform adequately, I will take care of mentoring them, helping them, or firing them as necessary. It's not your responsibility, and none of your business. I don't tell you how to do your job, please stop interfering with mine." I've never had anyone stupid enough to be willing to push it beyond that.
You can probably get away with all of this, IF:
1) You are willing to be bold about it. Timidity will just get you stepped on.
2) You're high enough placed in the organization that upper management knows you.
3) You've already built some respect with some successes, so upper management knows that when you say you will do something, you mean it.
4) Most importantly, you MUST have a solution to propose IMMEDIATELY when you say you are going to take responsibility. That solution doesn't have to be comprehensive, you can propose to have particular people study the problem to determine what the next step is, but have SOMETHING to propose right away.
It's not about falling back to "some wussy, wimpy old self" it's about falling back to being "a real man with integrity and backbone", you just put on a bit more of an asshole exterior when trying to get them to fall for you. You need to act like you seriously doubt that they're worth your time, for some reason a lot of women still haven't figured out that just because a guy behaves like he's too good for them it doesn't say anything about how good he really is.
/Mikael
Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
In the article it describes two management styles. The Stuart's of the world will consistently have/hold jobs. Being educated, able to handle your job responsibilities with tact and concern for your employees are skills that Doug doesn't possess. I would hate to work for a Doug. In fact, I have worked for a Doug types and Stuart types. I quit the Doug jobs. LOL Seriously, I am unemployed right now, and I am not afraid. I know I will find something. If you have a decent skill set, an education and have had relevant work experience then things will work out fine. If not, heck train for another arena that you are interested in!
I know I am not the norm, I have had six jobs in my 15 years of real job experience. I just don't see sticking with a company unless it is worth it, heck call me disloyal. I really wouldn't call it that, if companies treated their employees the way they should, most people wouldn't become job gypsies, LOL
I recently graduated and trust me if I don't find a job I really want right off the bat, I will take something I have to take and keep looking for the "long term" job with a growth pattern and a decent salary. I did it during my college years and I will continue to do it until I find the right place for myself.
As the inevitable cuts came, who do you think hung on to their job?
The head of human resources.
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
That's what being nice is -- finishing last. If you're an asshole and able to get away with it, people assume you're important -- at least more important than the people you're being an asshole to. And if those people let you get away with it, they are conceding that you're more important than them. Being an asshole all the time doesn't work (unless you really are the man on top), as if you're an asshole to someone who is more important and knows it, you'll be out on your ass. But being nice all the time is another way of saying "I'm on the bottom of the hierarchy, shit on me".
(what, cynical, me?)
Here's a couple ways to get started.
- Pay some attention to the people around you, and watch how they conduct themselves. Plenty of people are good at personal skills. The world is full of examples to learn from.
- Pick up a hobby that's generally involves some social interaction, and that you have no previous talent in. Go join a bowling league or something. The fact that you're new to it will make it more likely that you'll need to seek help from other people, hopefully forcing you to be more social. And many people actually enjoy the act of teaching and helping a fellow human being improve themselves, interacting with them won't be as hard as you think.
- Help with lots of little things around the office. Although it's sometimes annoying, it's actually a good thing to be one of the guys that people go to when they have a computer problem, or they need a ride to a meeting, or help carrying some boxes to their desk.
Note that none of these tips are particularly geared towards helping you pick up women. That "game" is a whole different thing, and one that I know even less about.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of working on a radiator (or the built-in valve) I'll give some backing to the "horseshit" claim made by gatkinso.
Modern radiators (anything say in the last 20 years) have a drain valve that is removable. There are two generally accepted methods of removal.
1. any respected radiator shop will replace this valve by first desoldering the old valve and soldering in a new one.
2. any inexperienced, but enthusiastic first-timer will attempt to use the 'righty-tighty/lefty-loosey' paradigm and break it off. This method requires a trip to the previously mentioned 'respected radiator shop'
Otherwise, it would need to be installed inline of either radiator hose. That leads to other problems when the target is a newer vehicle with form-fitting hoses. A hose section would need to be cut for the 'valve' to be installed in-line. The major problem with this is that the radiator will drain to the level of the cut requiring the cooling system to be re-filled and air removed from the system. These tasks cannot be performed on a crawler as the vehicle has to be running to remove the air and the hood has to be opened to fill the radiator.
Flamebait for calling BS, or in this case HS? I think you got a raw deal dude. I agree with your post but lack moderator points to do-the-right-thing (TM) and mod you up.
"Lame" - Galaxar
Networking is the deliberate act of socializing with a large number of people in the off chance that one day one of them will offer you a sweet deal/job just because you talked about sports with him at a bar one night.
God, no. Networking involves a huge spectrum of social contacts, both work-related and not. Knowing that that guy you once worked on a project with knows everything there is to know about subject X will allow you to place a quick call to get something sorted, instead of having to go through "official channels", making you look incredibly efficient(and getting credit for what's inside his head, even if you're completely honest about how and where you got the info). Sticking around for a 5 minute casual chat with some colleagues and saying hi in the hallways does wonders if you later have to work with them on something again. Remember what people tell you about their lives, and enquire at a later point in time how they're doing on whatever subject they happened to bring up.
That shit is important to a lot of people. Enquiring about things that people really care about makes them feel good about themselves. Nothing wrong with that. I don't give a hoot about my or anyone else's birthday either, but then my opinions aren't always the most important, and on some subjects you have to compromise.
Besides, it's a lot harder to really dislike people you regularly have face to face contact with, and that goes both ways. Much easier to blame department Y for all the wrongs in the world if you've never met Joe, Jack and Jane that works their asses off down there.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
The rise of the MBA over the past fifty years has burdened this country with whole class of parasites. Look to that when you try to explain the fall of a once great nation.
I don't think bad management is all that prevalent. There is also no shortage of it either.
I think this is mostly in larger companies that can live with the inefficiency. If this happens in a small company, then that company will be dead in short order.
Anyhow this story is about a single instance. Hardly enough to draw out some statistical conslusions. I am sure it's happened in the past too and will continue to happen in the future.
Consider that some times being an Asshole and bossy are more important then technical competence. Think Drill Sargent.
They kiss managements ass, sort of an emperors wears no cloths deal. They tell management what they want to hear, where the more competent engineer is more accurate but may lack tact and tactics. I know I've walked in to that one a few times.
There is a sort of used car sales men skills required not to spook customers or investors.
For example, I had a friend who sold 1U servers, that were the best. When I was at some company and we needed about 100 of these servers, I recommended him as first choice.
While on the phone with purchasing, he started to go in to how he doesn't have the fans, and it will take x long to get them. Then something about the special screws. He gave them an honest of a 1 month delivery time.
He spooked management, "What's with this guy? He's not professional.- It sounds like it's risky that he may not come through"
So they ordered with Penguin Computing, instead. They promised 2 week delivery. Well 6 weeks later we get them, most aren't even assembled correctly. Like Internal serial ports were on case, but not plugged in to the MB. So we spend a hard day of opening every case to plug in that connector.
Personally I'd take the honest engineer, and listen to him whine about needing to get the right fans. This is far better then be told a load of bull from some sales guy that is willing get that order at any cost.
But who made the money? At the end of the day isn't that all that really matters?
If you say No, then you don't realize that who get's the money, get's to expand their business.
This is why Microsoft still dominates!
They will try to sell us on Vista no matter how crappy it is, and probably will succeed. With time we will forget how much crappier it is then XP or 2K.
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
It's a trick question. Neither of them did, as the entire department was outsourced. Or right-sized. Or left-screwed. Or smart-wombatted. Or wang-smacked. Or whatever they're calling it these days.
"Do Nice Engineers Finish Last In Tough Times?"
Only at companies that are failing because they are poorly managed. If you find yourself working at one of these companies, don't wait to be laid off, start looking for new employment now!
Career advancement, especially in this right-sizing economy, is zero sum. There can only be one promotion. There are layoffs so only one person can keep their job. Only one person can be assigned a great project. If one person gets the prize, the other contenders will not. And the failed contenders will be bitter regardless of how nice the winner is.
In this environment, the atmosphere will always be unpleasant. You can try to be nice but you have to stand up for yourself and therefore piss other people off. A co-worker is the sole breadwinner of his family. You are a single guy who has tons of savings. Are you an asshole for fighting to keep your job even if he gets fired?
That is the reason why psychopaths get ahead. They do not care about others; they only care about advancing themselves. I do not think this is the best outcome but it makes sense that those who would do anything to get ahead end up getting ahead. Those who make "moral" sacrifices do not.
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
As for the Anonymous guy who has a thorn in his side about IT pros calling themselves engineers, well true not everyone one of use could be considered that, but the good ones can. We are given problems every day that we need to "engineer solutions for."
Dewser - all around techy "In the immortal words of Socrates - 'I drank what?'"
Funny? should be Insightful. Women aren't attracted to nice guys, but they don't want jerks either. What they're looking for is the "thief with the heart of gold", the kind that's a jerk to everyone *but* her, 'cause she's so special he can't help but reform his evil ways just to be with her.
That's exactly why so many women go out with cheating men, then act all surprised when he sleeps with their best friend: "but, but I thought with me it would be *different*!".
And yes, this comes from actual, personal experience, and no, not as the "nice guy who got rejected".
No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
Look after the boss' interests and he'll look after you.
Don't confuse the company's best interests with the boss' best interests.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Speaking hypothetically of course, if I had to become a self-promoting back-stabber to keep my job, I would rather behave properly and let nature take its course (even if it meant getting canned). And if the company is rewarding the self-promoting back-stabbers at the expense of team players, it's better to get out and try again somewhere else.
Not much sense in playing the game. If you decide to join the legion of self-promoting back stabbers, it's only a matter of time before someone plays the game more effectively than you do and then out you go.
You should only work with trustworthy people. If for some reason you cannot trust the people you work with, find people you CAN trust and go work with them instead.