Slashdot Mirror
Senator Prods Microsoft On H-1B Visas After Layoff Plans
CWmike writes "US Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) told Microsoft this week that US citizens should get priority over H-1B visa holders as the software vendor moves forward on its plan to cut 5,000 jobs. 'These work visa programs were never intended to allow a company to retain foreign guest workers rather than similarly qualified American workers, when that company cuts jobs during an economic downturn,' Grassley wrote in a letter sent Thursday to Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer. The letter asked Microsoft to detail the types of jobs that will be eliminated and how those cuts will affect the company's H-1B workers."
Reader theodp adds, "On Friday, Microsoft coincidentally announced it would postpone construction of a planned $500 million data center in Grassley's home state of Iowa, although work on data centers in Chicago and Dublin will continue."
Surprised a Republican did this. These guys are more likable when not in power, I guess.
Dey tuk our jerbs!
What's really going to be awesome is when Microsoft, IBM, et al go to Congress for their annual request for increased H1B visas after laying off thousands of American workers.
I can understand that the well-being of american workers is more important than that of visa-holders to an elected politician. However, the impact of losing the job is much higher for H1Bs, as they usually have to leave the country (within 1 week I think). Considering the fact that these are humans, too, maybe it would be acceptable to lessen these restrictions somewhat, i. e. allow these people to stay in the country for a year if they have the financial means.
Fleur de Sel
I was laid off from my programming job and I have been looking for a job for a year now, and I keep getting passed on. I've even lowered my wage expectations and my references, former managers and coworkers, have a lot of good things to say about me. I am constantly applying through newspapers, monster.com, dice.com, etc. Why is a H1-B holder getting precedence over me? And, why are these companies laying off Americans in favor of keeping the H1-Bs? We have a problem, Houston.
All those laid off workers can help with Open Source development while they're on unemployment. It sounds like a win to me.
Let's be clear here. We are talking about H1B program, not outsourcing. Companies outsource entire department to save costs, because they can pay less to equivalent workers overseas. On the other hand, when sponsoring a H1B visa, the employer has to show that the guest worker gets the prevailing wage, on par with all the "similarly qualified" U.S. citizens in the same business. On top of that, the government increases the application fee every now and then to make it costlier to hire H1B workers. In general, it's actually more expensive and difficult to hire a truly qualified H1B employee. Nobody would hire a permanent employee holding H1B visa unless they can't find anyone else equally competent. If anything they've probably already prioritized the H1B holders in their layoff plan, because it makes business sense.
They are all simply hiring elsewhere.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
The "guest worker" program is nothing more than a gift to large corporations to get cheap labor that is almost an "indentured servant."
Seriously, what employer wouldn't want to be in the position to employ reasonably killed labor that *HAS* to work to to say in the country. They are a lot easier to intimidate. They can't raise labor issues for fear of having to leave the country.
H1Bs come to the US. Work for less than the prevailing wage. Are not "citizens" and do not have the same rights. Can be easily intimidated: "Don't want to work on the week-end without pay? Your fired, now go back to your own country."
Then if they lose their jobs, not only do they have to leave, but they have to pay to leave. Lose their last month's security deposit on their apartment because they have to break the lease.
H1Bs reduce the prevailing wage, exploit foreigners, and are generally bad policy for middle class.
As for Microsoft, or any employer, *all* H1Bs should be dispensed with *before* any american gets laid off.
Some of these companies didn't want to hire Americans in the first place according the Programmer's Guild.
Here's a video showing Immigration Attorney's explaining what companies need to do to get around the laws and hire more H1-Bs.
Basically, create impossible job descriptions and then go oversees since no American would qualify.
I've worked with and managed a few H1B programmers. Some where very talented. Some were hired just because they were cheap. They were no better than any random American college grad. They were just cheaper.
Both the American and foreign born developers worked hard and there were good and bad in both. It all boils down to money.
Most of these companies depend on American consumers to survive, but if everyone decides American workers are too expensive to hire, they're not going to have American consumers to buy their products and services.
Here's the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU&feature=channel_page
Actually, I would have to go back and read the way the law is written, but the Senator has a valid point in regards to this situation. You can't really sit there and lay off a large number of technical people and then say that you can find people those same technical skills to do the job and ask to bring in guest workers from out of the country.
Microsoft might be allowed to layoff who ever they want to, but on the same token the government is able to deny H1B applications from Microsoft as well.
I think bringing in foreign tech workers is fine. The problem is sending them back home.
By the logic that says that bringing foreign tech workers into the US is bad for US tech workers, a software engineer would be better off looking for a job in Flint, Michigan than San Jose, California, because there are so many software engineers in San Jose. The problem with this reasoning is that the number of software engineers in San Jose attracts companies there, and those companies create jobs. Having other engineers around means you get a smaller proportion slice of a much, much larger pie. And the very best engineers don't just consume jobs, the create new industries.
The real fault with the H1B program is that it is structured in a way that encourages companies to offshore jobs. You bring a cohort of junior engineers in from India, have them gain experience in your field and product, then you kick them back to Banagalore, a ready made outsourcing team. Making employers shed H1Bs will only accelerate the loss of US jobs, giving US workers a larger proportion of a much, much smaller pie.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
...keeping those people that are the most competent?
Makes more sense than keeping incompetent lazy Americans or incompetent lazy foreigners.
Oh well... why do I expect business decisions of a big company to make sense?
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
I always twitch when I read these stories, because I always see it as hypocrisy and double-standards.
You constantly hear about free market economics, capitalism, the global economy, etc... from America, but what it really boils down to as always is supporting the above ideals when it's good for America, and then moving them to the side when things get tough. It's the age old "America does what is best for America" mantra.
Microsoft is going to hire and fire the best worker for the job, according to their qualifications; nationality and citizenship should be entirely irrelevant. Not only does this make sense ethically, it makes sense economically (from a corporate perspective). Why hire an inferior worker who holds citizenship when I can hire 'x' H-1B worker who is superior (and, make more money as a result)? Making money is what drives companies.
When you're willing to advocate preferential treatment for an American citizen not because they are better equipped to do the job but purely because they are an American, you're throwing away your ideals of free-markets and global economics. Coming from a republican I find this especially amusing, as it tends to be the republicans that are the strongest advocates of pure-free market economics.
This is potentially a great move from a PR perspective. Most Americans aren't going to call someone out for taking a position that strengthens their ability to gain employment, but from an ideological perspective, it's flimsy at best.
Disclaimer: America isn't the only country that does this kind of stuff, but as arguably the most vocal advocate of the above economic philosophies, it's probably the most hypocritical for doing so.
Obama has stated that he wants to RAISE the H-1B cap.
[Insert pithy quote here]
Maybe you missed something. At the bottom of the summary, it says that Microsoft it would postpone a data center in his home state. That will cause unemployment in his home state to rise and his hopes of reelection to diminish. It's all about getting reelected. It's never too early to think of your chances the next time you face the voters in a poll, especially if your popularity is waning.
Bill Gates to Congress: Let us hire more foreigners
Why do you think every single H1-B holder is some loser without anyone to care for and has no obligations except to themselves? How do you know if they have family back home they're sending money to? Seriously that's a stupid argument and you're assuming some foreigner is working for less money than a native. From my experience the foreigner will make the same as a native at a company like MS.
America for Americans? (Not that I find it bad, nor that I agree with it, but this really made me remember the illustrious "Mein Kampf")
Outsourcing was BIG under the Clinton administration.
You are right about Clinton. The jury is still out on Obama.
Let's remember that Clinton was THE poster boy for the Democratic Leadership Council, the corporate propaganda outlet of the Democratic Party. This group is largely responsible for there being no real difference between parties when it comes corporate influence on policy and legislation. They wanted to get a piece of the corporate gravy train and they sold their souls to get it.
The future? Well, did you discern any difference between the number of private corporate parties given at the Democratic versus Republican conventions? I didn't. Do we think that $175 million of largely corporate money for the inauguration will be free? Regardless of much integrity Obama may have, it is hard to ignore that kind of pressure. Telecom immunity, anyone?
"Pro-American"? What is that even supposed to mean? Are you suggesting that all Democrats are anti-American and enter politics with the sworn goal of destroying the USA?
It's not a question of being for or against America or Americans. Both sides want America to be a strong and prosperous nation. The difference is in how they think that will be achieved. Do you focus on the very real needs of individual Americans, with the possible consequence of lengthening the economic troubles -- or do you try to strengthen American companies (possibly at the cost of American jobs in the short term) in order to get the economy back on track, at which point the employment market will improve for everyone?
It's an interesting question, and "No more immigration! American jobs for American workers!" is not a useful answer. Drop the jingoistic propaganda bullshit and focus on serious economics, please.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
ObDisclosure: Charles Grassley is a family friend. I haven't had a conversation with him in several years, though.
Grassley is a vanishing breed. He's a small-town Iowan who still runs his own family farm. He's a child of the Depression and stretches a buck like it's nobody's business. He's the stereotype of Republicans from old Frank Capra movies: you can easily imagine him in a green-tinted eye visor making quiet, forlorn grief over how he forgot to get a receipt for lunch at McDonald's.
He was part of a labor union when he worked on an assembly line, and he has been current in his union dues for the last five decades. Yes, Chuck Grassley, a 28-year Senator and Ranking Member of the Senate Finance Committee, is a lifelong union man and an advocate for organized labor.
He is no fan of the FBI. He's spoken out many times about FBI abuses of power, lack of accountability, and the FBI's tendency to retaliate against whistleblowers. He's shielded many whistleblowers from retaliation.
My favorite Grassley story comes from my father, who once phoned me up after he went for a drive with him. Grassley was pulling into an underground parking garage... shut off the engine, put the car in neutral... and coasted down five levels of parking. He explained to Dad that the price of gas just kept on going up and up and up, and he was trying to cut back on his usage.
So yeah. Grassley's the real deal. He's part of a dying, vanishing breed of Republicanism. God knows I'd much rather have Republicans like him than GWB any day of the week.
Its amazing how the word "H1-B" almost always triggers off a passionate debate in any setting. My position on immigrant workers is that the US should clearly favor its own citizens compared to these workers. However it seems like people have their facts grossly wrong when it comes to things like wages and H1-B. If you've carefully followed layoff news recently, you'll observe that most of the layoffs are in finance, sales, marketing,etc. Americans usually fill these positions, because they are way better at this that most others. Immigrants have statistically been known to end up in engineering positions(cubicle prisoners :)). I don't under why there is so much animosity towards the H1-B workers (most of whom are in engineering) when most of the layoffs are not in engineering.
Secondly, H1-B workers don't lower wages. There is a law in place to prevent exploitation and to prevent companies from low balling salaries to migrant workers. For a given level of education, there is a hard number in place which is the minimum he/she should get paid for that position (ref wikipedia).
Thirdly, life for a migrant worker isnt fun. They are constantly worried about making their life's biggest investments in things like housing, children's education,etc especially when there is constant uncertainty surrounding their ability to stay in the US. I can completely appreciate the fact that US citizens deserve priority in being hired, but lets face it, there just arent enough american engineers to fill these positions.(I'm sorry to repeat the most hackneyed/poster-child argument made by silicon valley, but its true.) You are dealing with human beings here, not inanimate objects that serve their usefulness at a time and can be thrown in the trash later. H1-B workers come to the US,pay a third of their earnings in rent (which is good for american house owners), 40% in tax(a lot of them are in silicon valley/califonia) and end up saving about a third. They pay social security and medicare and yet are not eligible to benefit from it when they need it (unless they become citizens eventually. This process takes almost 10 years).
I dont want to pepper the message board with just rhetoric (since most people seem to have an opinion on everything but no one "knows" anything) and hence will try to offer some constructive solutions.
You can start with making govt subsidy available to companies making a serious attempt at reducing outsouring and creating (possibly lower wage) american jobs (heck its better than leaving 7% of the US unemployed as is the case right now).
When it comes to H1-B, make a marked shift in quotas to favor people with american education (since they bring dollars into the education system). A US bachelors or masters receives priority over anything else. What they are doing right now is completely disregarding merit which is think is a huge huge mistake. The H1-B system is placing on par, people from very modest academic backgrounds on the same plane with foreign students who graduate from Americas top schools like MIT, Caltech, Stanford,etc. It is delusional to turn a blind eye to merit. That way when you funnel the access to H1-B, you'll get much better quality for the jobs you seek to fill and provide americans with an opportunity to apply to every job there is.
Peace, Love, Empathy.
I worked at Microsoft in Redmond with H1B work status for four years. Last year I left MS because I found job opportunity that was better for my family. (This new job happened to be back in my country.)
I can't comment about the overall H1B program in the US, or the overall US labour market, or even on any new changes at MS over the past year, but I do definitely know about the experiences of H1B employees in the developer and testing roles at MS.
I (and all other non-US-citizen employees) were treated exactly the same as every other employee. We had the same job descriptions and responsibilities as other employees and the same opportunities for promotion. We were integrated in teams that included US citizens, other H1B-status workers, and people with other immigration statuses. We were certainly paid the same as any other employee with a similar job and similar experience.
I also know that Microsoft has very high hiring standards for developer and tester roles. I was not in a management/lead position, but I occasionally reviewed resumes and took part in interviewing applicants. Interviews were tough all-day affairs, including questions that required the use of logic, math, programming, and testing methodologies. The point wasn't to see if the applicant could regurgitate the knowledge, but to view his or her thinking process, creativity, and problem solving abilities as they tried to come up with a solution, and handle complications or restrictions that the interviewer throws at the candidate after they come up with an initial solution.
During the time I was there, my group and most others were always trying to hire more people. The major bottleneck was waiting to get any resumes for candidates that seemed worth interviewing. Most interviews ended with frustration that the candidate wasn't up to standards. Just because you applied to MS and didn't get a job or even an interview is not proof that Microsoft didn't need to look outside the US to find candidates up to their standards.
So, you might have valid criticisms about the quality of Microsoft software, but MS really does have very high standards for their employees, and employees with H1B status are treated the same as any other full-time employee there.
Atheism is a religion to the same extent that not collecting stamps is a hobby.