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Software Piracy At the Beijing Branch Office?
spirit_fingers writes "I'm the IT manager for a west coast design company that has a small branch office in Beijing with 5 employees, a few workstations and a couple of servers. Recently, it came to my attention that the Beijing office has been routinely installing and using pirated software on their computers — MS Office and Adobe Creative Suite, mostly. We're very buttoned up about being legal with our software here at the home office, and I consider it unprofessional and risky for our Beijing office to be engaging in this practice. When I called the local office manager on this, he shrugged and replied, 'Well, every other shop here does it.' So I was wondering if there are any IT manager Slashdotters here in the the US who may have experienced something similar with their colleagues in APAC, and how they handle a situation like this." Click the link for more of this reader's thoughts on the subject.
Up until now, the powers that be here in the States have had a relatively laissez faire attitude about what goes on at the Beijing office and our accounting department hadn't noticed that Beijing never submitted receipts for software, until I questioned them about it.
I have no doubt that "everyone else does it" in that environment. Frankly, I could care less what those guys do with their personal computers, but when it comes to company-owned gear my attitude is to stay legal no matter what anyone else is doing. And it's not like they need to do it to save money: the Beijing branch turns a tidy profit. It just seems to be an attitude so firmly ingrained in the culture over there that no one gives it a second thought.
My response (CC'd to our CFO) was to ask for copies of all receipts and serial numbers for the software they're using. and see what happens. This came down today, so I'll give them a day or two to come up with something.
Up until now, the powers that be here in the States have had a relatively laissez faire attitude about what goes on at the Beijing office and our accounting department hadn't noticed that Beijing never submitted receipts for software, until I questioned them about it.
I have no doubt that "everyone else does it" in that environment. Frankly, I could care less what those guys do with their personal computers, but when it comes to company-owned gear my attitude is to stay legal no matter what anyone else is doing. And it's not like they need to do it to save money: the Beijing branch turns a tidy profit. It just seems to be an attitude so firmly ingrained in the culture over there that no one gives it a second thought.
My response (CC'd to our CFO) was to ask for copies of all receipts and serial numbers for the software they're using. and see what happens. This came down today, so I'll give them a day or two to come up with something.
Why make the decision yourself?
Send an email to the directors just confirming this is what they wish to do and that they don't want you to take any action on this matter.
Then it's not really your problem anymore.
Passing the buck works both ways :)
GrpA
Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
You are better off suggesting Open Office and Free PDF software; rather than fighting piracy.
I used to work at a multi-national company; and I used to be amazed at the amount of self-imposed lock-ins created by IT staff in Western branches (I am based in India). Routine inter office correspondence happens using 'advanced' features in Exchange and Word which work only on the Windows platform. I always felt plain text and HTML suffices for any and all communication requirements.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
My response (CC'd to our CFO) was to ask for copies of all receipts and serial numbers for the software they're using. and see what happens.
Can you request that from that branch only, and ask nothing from other branches? I'd think the manager would be seriously upset if you in such an open, unambiguous way declare him a pirate.
A better way, IMO, would be to set up a company-wide policy of keeping track of all software, all licenses and all computers. You need that anyway, just to know what you have, where, and what can be reused, and such. To implement that you, of course, need scans of receipts and licenses, serial numbers, codes or whatever is needed to install and use, along with some notes on what license governs the s/w (such as whether it can be moved from one box to another, etc.) This way when a computer is decommissioned you know what was on it and what can be salvaged. Tools like ManageSoft and HP CM do this, and there are other (free and not.) And when Boy Scouts of America kick the doors in you have all the receipts (that they insist upon!) to prove that you are not guilty, this time.
That assumes that your job makes you responsible for licensing compliance. If not, maybe you should not bother.
Well, I know for a fact people in china do occasionally buy software, but I work in an industry where you would be very hard pressed to pirate software.
Besides, even the Chinese don't want planes falling out of the sky, and it comes with a nice support contract.
I would ask, are they breaking any local laws and can it come back to byte you in the future.
Unless your job is legal compliance or you own a lot of Microsoft stock, why bother with this?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
. . . and suggest that you ask whoever is responsible for your company's legal affairs in China to address this. I'd assume that your company has an attorney that's familiar with the law there.
Considering the answer to your question obviously lies there, I'm prone to believe that this scenario is made up to promote an "anti-piracy" agenda on this site.
It's not like they're going to be caught and prosecuted. Although if possible, why not go for a FOSS solution? Personally I do tend to try to compensate people who write cool software that I use.
Ocassionally I get emails from Chinese users asking for a serial for one of our products. I asked one if there was not an accessible store from which to purchase it. He responded, basically, yeah, there's a couple, but no one buys software in China, they just download it. So there you have it!
Sadly we're not popular enough for anyone to have made a keygen that I can find.
It is admirable that you want to follow the law, but it is not your decision to make. First, decide if you are willing to go down to the mat on this issue. You may antagonize your superiors and be retaliated against. The threshold question is whether the risk of losing your job or getting your career stalled is acceptable to you. It's perfectly fine to let the matter lie if you feel your job may be at risk in this economy.
Whatever you decide to do, you should cover your ass. Write a formal memo detailing the foreign office's inability to demonstrate that its software is all legit. Call it to the attention of the Beijing folks and a US-based superior. But do not admit that the software is illegal. You do not know if it is. More to the point, it does not violate American law, which is mostly territorial. (The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act covers bribes, not copyright infringement but don't hold me to this.) Just say that you cannot prove the software is legitimate and leave it at that unless you have proof that it is illegal. File a copy of the memo away in a safe place and keep on trucking.
Should you decide to go on the warpath, make sure you have adequate backing. You do not want to be left alone, or be the problem-maker. Work up the numbers and see how much it would cost to go legit. See if you can use this as a selling point: "All our software is legit; the competitors use stolen software that may have trojans or be incompatible." Work on a consensus with your colleagues and superiors.
Lastly, be nice and tactful. Avoid being that douchebag who thinks he is better than everyone else. You cannot be effective if you are that dude. Be chill and try to make a win-win situation.
But if the company management is utterly unwilling to fix the problem, let it drop. Document your suspicions (and say that it is only a suspicion, not proof), send it to the Beijing folks, and save a copy of the memo.
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
Well, I don't. But Let's see...
* IT manager
* a US west coast design company
* a branch office in Beijing with 5 employees
Can't be that many of them... I reckon half an hour on Google and I can work out who you are...
> When I called the local office manager on this, he shrugged and replied, 'Well, every other shop here does it.' So I was wondering if there are any IT manager Slashdotters here in the the US
Oh he knows who you are already...
Good luck in your new career.
Avoid being that douchebag who thinks he is better than everyone else
I'd say it's probably a bit late for that.
While the poster's motives might appear noble, I don't understand exactly what he's trying to achieve. A promotion, extra brownie points, getting someone in a foreign country fired, or at least severely embarrassed (and they set a lot of store on respect in Asia btw).
He's already approached the person responsible, and voiced his concerns. Just because said person didn't take the action he expected, instead of leaving it alone, he posts it on Slashdot for the world and his wife to comment on. And within a few days it'll be all indexed by Google for posterity.
To me he comes across as an anal retentive asshole who should be spending more time doing his job, rather than trying to shaft other people ... but that's just me, karma be damned.
Maybe we should stop paying for Chinese goods? Because obviously some factory boss in China is getting rich off of his exploited workers.
Besides, besides Windows it's hard to argue that any software company has an absolute monopoly.
When the fact that he has stated they are a design firm makes it pretty clear that at least one of the pirated pieces of software is Adobe Photoshop?
Nobody would actually be so naive to claim that GIMP is a legitimate and complete open source alternative for Photoshop for a design firm at this point in time? Right? (Although I obviously hope that it will be at some point in the future and GIMP currently is great to give to friends that are learning photo manipulation software for the first time)
Classifying Chinese working for a branch office of an American design company in Beijing as "some people in a third-world country" is more than a bit disingenuous. Also please consider that the money to be spent also belongs to another American corporation (design, so presumably a monopolist as well) not those people in China.
China is a Capitalist Authoritarian Dictatorship. You know, like the US tried in South America in the 70's/80's.
http://www.bsa.org/ It is completely anonymous.
Why would I - an open source advocate - suggest such a thing? Simple; Forcing people to use and learn from Linux (and thereby allowing Linux to learn from them in turn) is better than passively letting them steal MicroSoft products they can't afford which only improves MicroSoft's ability to leverage their installation base in illegally (in the US at least) anti-competitive practices. This will force MicroSoft to price their software at what its worth or make it worth what they charge.
Why would I claim to be a benevolent person who cares for the good of humanity with such apparently cruel intentions as forcing users to use Linux unwillingly? That answer is also simple but if you don't already know it then it is pointless for me to state it.
The way they need to handle it if it is as you say would be to just buy the software, ship it to them and invoice it against their accounts.
I'm not sure why a single branch is allowed to make their own software decisions anyways. Granted, they are in a different country but if it's the same company and not a contracted company or some partner thing between several companies, then it only makes sense that the company has control over this regardless of what the local management say. It's not like they can refuse to report income or something or steer the branch in the opposite direction the company is aiming for and start selling car parts or anything, likewise, it isn't like they shouldn't be obligated to follow corporate policy.
If it were 100% impossible to pirate Microsoft and Adobe products, it'd speed up their replacement with open-source software immensely.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Of course this will happen with APAC shops unless the APAC employees get training in US buisiness culture, and the US employees get training in Chinese buisiness culture. Bootleg software is the *least* surprise your exectutives will receive unless they get out in front of this issue.
The APAC employees need the "this is how we do things here" speech. They will think you are nuts. If you repeat the speech enough, they will get it.
I hate to say this, but you sound like a paid microsoft poster. Raids? In China? Have you ever been to China? Honestly. Please don't spread FUD. Trust me. I live here.
I would worry about trojans, spyware. These are legitimate concerns.
Another concern is that a lot of development in China takes place on very old slow machines. You want to do development here? Plan on using Microsoft VCC 6.0. Want to buy a copy? Forget it. Microsoft dropped that one about a decade ago. ( actually it is amazing how these kids get so much done working little on 17 inch monitors )
Iâve seen a lot people here using pirated software that is three generations old and no older available. But, it runs 10 times as fast as the new versions, and still seems slow on the old machines here.
This is about more than just pirated software. Depending on where the Beijing office got the software, it could be carrying a malware payload that handed over back doors to all of their computers.
China is well known for using corporate (and other) espionage to further their political agenda. Hooking into company systems to exfiltrate any possibly valuable data is far too common.
I would consider the computer security risk to be far more of an issue than just not having proper licenses.
I know it's easy to say this from the outside, but if their Beijing office routinely pirates software, everything about this company's IT security posture seems very out of control.
The OP might as well post logins and passwords on the Internet. It sounds like an extreme analogy, but the reality is that their Beijing computers are probably compromised - possibly multiple times - and any data has probably been examined and pilfered.
Not just in China. India also does it. Not only do they pay their workers less, but they skimp on software that we here in the USA can get busted for quickly. Outsourcing is just another commodity in this "Free Trade" world that is unfair to the USA. How can USA companies and their employees compete with people who steal?
That phrase has never made much sense. Apple pie isn't especially american.
You could say the same about lots of things. Oil, for one. Or gold.
What you're saying is that if you can't afford something, it's OK to steal it.
At the bottom of the
Not THAT horrible old analogy again!
No - what he's saying is that if you can't afford something, it's ok to copy it. Now, you're free to disagree with that and in many cases I might even agree with you, but there's no reason to misrepresent the other side of the argument. You CAN NOT compare physical resources to information because information, once created, is an infinite resource, whereas physical resources will always be finite.
You mean, American companies sell Chinese products in US for eight times the price they paid in China?
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
To me he comes across as an anal retentive asshole who should be spending more time doing his job
The poster may have been foolhardy bringing it to slashdot, but it is totally his job to be concerned about it. As IT manager he needs to be know about software installed on the company's computers. This applies whether it's pirated, or completely legal copies of software not approved or suitable for the company's business.
Pirated software is more likely to have viruses and malware than legitimate copies. If this branch office is either networked or in regular email contact with the rest of the company, then any IT manager would be being negligent if they weren't taking an interest in what was installed on those computers.
If the IT manager doesn't have enough influence to instruct what should be on those computers, and what should not, then they he needs to tell his superiors he will bear no responsibility for any possible damage traced back to them. If his superiors are fine with that, then so be it. But you'd then be left wondering what they want an IT Manager for.
Even if you activate the firewall before connecting to Internet?
I doubt it.. My memory is fuzzy but I think that even original Windows XP had a firewall, but it was disabled by default (which was quite dumb or evil depending on how you look at it).
"China, People's Republic of: $5,325, rank: 100
United States: rank: $45,725, rank: 6
Clear enough?"
No, not clear. While you may or may not be making a valid point, giving absolute values of income does nothing to tell you the standard of living, which is what would really determine if someone was "rich" or not. Where I live in the US, the average price of a home has probably dropped back down to about a million dollars. You can't rent a room for less than 1,000/month. While there may be a difference in the average standard of living, I don't think it is in proportion to the dollar values you cite. So, no, it is not clear at all.
Basically, on the whole, people who use prostitutes are a lot more aware of the "dark side" and take more precautions than upright citizens. And they never get the clap or have their wallet stolen. Basically, on the whole, people who use badly maintained electrical goods are a lot more aware of the "dark side" and take more precautions than upright citizens. And they never get a shock or have their house burn down. Basically, on the whole, people who use heroin are a lot more aware of the "dark side" and take more precautions than upright citizens. And they never OD, get a bad batch, get sick or die. Basically, on the whole, people who use illegally modified cars are a lot more aware of the "dark side" and take more precautions than upright citizens. And they never break down or crash. (Compulsory car analogy, offered as part of the /. car analogy quota target program).
I think I spotted a flaw in your reasoning.
It's obvious to everyone that if you can't detect malware by using cracked "security" tools on a cracked OS then there simply isn't any malware there to find. Obvious and simple too! Duh.
Anyway carry on with your warez. Trust all your data to the goodwill and competence of the warez scene. Believe that if you can't understand or perceive something then it can't exist. And good luck.
Yes copyright infringement is theft of labor. It's no different from if you hired an employee to mow your grass, and then you refused to pay them.
Actually ... no it's not. At least, not in the U.S. What one feels (according to one's own personal moral code) and what copyright law says are often two very different matters.
Guess which one trumps the other in court.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
How can you feel sorry for the Chinese, when they have been manipulating their currency to keep the value artificially low? That's the whole point. If the value of their currency is low, they can't afford to buy stuff from foreign countries, thus they keep a massive export to import ratio.
Maybe if more enforcement was done to prevent such rampant copyright violation then they would have a little incentive to achieve a better trade / currency balance.
Better known as 318230.
I personally do see a difference between a teenager pirating XYZ's latest pop album that sucks and an umpteen million year company pirating their core business software.
I understand why there is a legal difference between the two. Larger disincentives for for-profit copyright infringement make sense. But, why is there a moral difference? If copying something without the copyright-holder's permission is wrong, isn't it always wrong?
... and that's when the C.H.U.D.'s came at me.
Could ye at least try for some *consistency* in your views?
In case you hadn't noticed, there are more than two people on Slashdot (or so I'm told) which means there are different views that come up, and consistency across the board is nigh on impossible. It everyone's views were consistent with each other, it would be incredibly boring.
Calm down, just a bit or two, there is no need to overreact.
For one thing, whether it is OK to copy software without the consent of the one who produced it is mostly a matter of taste or culture - unlike, say, murder or burglary. The whole idea of "intellectual property rights" is something that is very recent and has come into the world in the West; not to mention the whole idea of private property that underpins it, which one may be excused for thinking is alien to a Communist nation. All that aside, it has long been a part of Chinese culture and tradition to copy things - it is seen as a perfectly legitimate thing to do. You learn calligraphy or other arts by copying the masters, after all; so why not literature or software?
China is well known for using corporate (and other) espionage to further their political agenda.
Really? It isn't well-known to me, among others. You see, when you make a claim like that you need to be able to prove your case. Otherwise it merely ranks as "smug ignorance", on par with all the other prejudices - such as "all muslims are terrorists" or "Jews are money-grabbing misers".
Apart from that, you could substitute "England", "USA", "Israel" or just about any nation for China in that statement and get something equally justified. There is every reason to believe that all countries do this kind of things. Just to take one example: Isn't it true that we keep hearing about how American government agencies want to induce eg. Microsoft to install backdoors in their software? And is that not "espionage to further their political agenda"?
It is too lame to drone on with this sort of automatic demonizing of everybody you don't like or don't understand. The only two effects that is like ly to have is alienating your opponents and making you look stupid. Right now China is storming forward in the world and they are opening up; this is among many other things a great opportunity for the western governments to make friends and influence their policies on all the issues we criticize them for. And who knows, maybe some time in the future we will be glad that we have a friend in China.
You CAN NOT compare physical resources to information because information, once created, is an infinite resource, whereas physical resources will always be finite.
The ability to replicate something infinity does take value away from it. AutoCAD is expensive because of the time spent building, integrating, and maintaining an awesomely powerful set of tools. By copying it, the value of the tool is reduced for the people that put the work and money into making it what it is. And I don't have a problem with those creators deciding how abundant or scarce their work is through pricing, that is an artist's (or any other creators) right... including programmers and companies that hire them to produce software.
You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
If you steal from a grocery store, you deprive them of the groceries they paid for.
Pirating is more like buying from a different grocery store, or growing the food in your garden. That way you deprive them of the sale, but they still have the groceries to sell to someone else.
Just wait. when they decide to inflate all the debt away you're saving's wont be worth anything either. you'll wish you spent it on fast cars and loose women and gambling or even just wasted it. At least you'd have some memory's.
I will have a sig when the market demands it.
Because 98% (SPFMA) of people fall into one of two categories:
1. Intentionally obtuse.
2. Stupid
Next question?
"City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
Ha.
HaHaHa.
Three hours, three hours tops. That's how long your locked down machines would last before they were wiped clean and reinstalled from whatever cracked windows media they prefer. Including your fancy-schmancy-linux scanner system. It'd be running xp, vista or windows 7 RC1 before you reached the airport.
This is China. The rules are different here. For starters, law is irrelevant. All laws. All the time. Cold-blooded pre-planned murder is a debatable situation here depending on who you know. The only actually arrestable offense is annoying a police officer or someone with a hold over police officers.
kartune85 : Incapable of reason, observation or learning. A kind of dim, drab, flightless parrot.
I had this problem with our Beijing office. The top brass had the same attitude, "we're getting the job done so what".
There are over 1 billion people in China, I could and did hire a replacement in less than a months time.
You do get what you pay for though...a good salary for a skilled worker in Beijing is $10,000-$12,000/year.
The analogy is more like this:
Say everyone has one of those Star Trek replicators.
Someone goes to the grocery store, and buys an item.
Said someone then puts that in his replicator and then uploads the "recipe" for that item.
Everyone else who wants to, downloads the recipe and creates a copy of that item (from their own raw materials).
I do not see how this is clearly unethical or wrong.
In a Star Trek world, I guess everyone would be able to obtain the raw materials for making whatever meals they want. So there is no food scarcity barring exceptional events.
Of course it'll be harder to be rich from selling food.
But if everyone could eat the best foods in the entire world anytime they wanted, aren't they all now richer than the wealthiest kings 1000 years ago?
A computer in this respect is just a replicator that only works with information.
In the future we might have "real" replicators.
One might argue then that it is immoral and unethical to create an artificial scarcity when there does not have to be one. Preventing people from making copies of all sorts of items, just so that you could make yourself "rich".
Plagiarism would still be wrong - since it involves lying. It'll still be wrong to make a copy and claim it's an original you came up with.
Turn them in for a reward. It's win-win.
Your advice will turn the OP's working life into a living hell. Most likely relations with the China team will go to ---- and he will only be able to make a small dent anyway.
Enforcing by fiat from several thousand miles away.... geeze I wonder how that's going to look to the Chinese staff.
Classic case of culture mismatch + geek 'how dare they trespass my domain' indignation = epic fail
The ethics aside, doing the above will surely fail and not have any impact on anything, leaving no traces. That in itself is a reason not to do so.
There's plenty of other posts here that may educate the frustrated petty bureaucrat in you so I won't even bother trying to explain how incredibly arrogant and condescending you come across as
No, the analogy is more like this:
As long as we live in a society where people earn a living by getting paid for their work, there must be a method in place to compensate them for that work. That method is copyright protection. Other methods have been tried, are being tried, and may turn out to work better, but for now copyright is still the law.
We pretty much agree (as a society, though perhaps not as Slashdotters) that it is immoral to willfully violate a just law. Since copyright is not depriving you of any inalienable rights, and since it facilitates the existence of people who create intangible works for a living, there doesn't appear to be anything unjust about copyright.
I commonly hear that, "Copyright infringement isn't stealing because it doesn't deprive anyone of anything." No, it's not stealing, because we decided to make different words for different actions, but it still deprives someone of something -- it deprives someone of compensation for their work. No, that's not a tangible object, but neither is "being alive." Neither is "being free." They're both far more abstract than an audio recording, yet we agree that depriving people of their freedom or life is generally also wrong. There are acceptable reasons for doing all of the above, but "because you wanted to" is not among them.
Are there cases in which copyright fails to create the desired results? Sure. There's abandonware, out of print works, bizzare licensing schemes, etc. But that's no excuse for copying a work just because "I wouldn't have bought it anyway."
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
Yeah, they don't really consider it "piracy"... they usually bought it from a store off a shelf. They do realize that it's quite a bit cheaper (1/5 to just over the price of blank media) than what other countries might be paying for it.
Places to buy "official" software practically have no presence or visibility in any marketplace. And if they did have a store, the locals would just laugh at how ridiculous the pricing was.
Incidentally, people are much more sensitive to "market" prices. For example, when Nintendo releases a game, it doesn't sell for a fixed price, but rather by some kind of composite of materials complexity (e.g. 1MB vs. 4MB ROMS in old Famicom carts, which was actually listed as a "feature" on the box!) and how popular the game is on the charts, and of course traditional supply/demand of commodities. Only in the U.S. have I seen so much corporate and marketing-based price fixing, where a lame game based on a movie debuts at $40, and then maybe goes in the bargain bin for $20 some years later. The concept that some product (especially "dated" things like books and software) could have a fixed price is still somewhat alien to the East.