Telling Fact From Fantasy In the World of Apple Rumors

Harry writes "In recent years, fact-based reporting about Apple and its products has been almost completely overwhelmed by gossip, predictions, and speculation — an amazing percentage of which is embarrassingly wrong. I've put together a guide to figuring out which scuttlebutt is almost certainly fiction, and which has a shot at jibing with reality."

Comments

Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[elrous0]

Sorry, couldn't resist. ;-)

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[jellomizer]

I would suggest that you price any other companies computer Spec for Spec It doesn't matter if you think the spec is important to you or not. (including Size, Weight, Dimensions, Video Camera,Keyboard type...), in general try to custom build the Mac Model. You will find the price of the Mac, will be about the same price as the competitors.
That said. Apple has a limited line and there are a lot of gaps for what people want in a computer, So the Apple may not be the best value for them. But as for its price their prices are competitive. (Don't include home built boxes, as you rarely add your labor to the price, and you pay for just the parts)

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Anonymous Coward]

meet http://www.santech.eu/shop/default.aspx

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[risinganger]

imo there is a certain amount of truth to that but generally only at a products release or update. Apple don't tend to change prices unlike many others (take Dell for example), so while I tend to agree that the cost difference between different companies isn't great, it does tend to grow in favour of other companies the longer Apple leaves a product update.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Anonymous Coward]

Done, thanks for having me do this again. It's always a good exercise to double check and see if the apple delusion-ists are correct this time. Unfortunately once again apples products came out more expensive for equivalent products.

I spent 10 min comparing apples store on the website using 20 and 24 in imacs and 20 and 24 inch dell xps all in ones. Obviously you cant get them identical but similar machines had the XPS dell's (which are already overpriced) coming in at a few hundred dollars cheaper.

But hey keep posting this garbage and maybe someday you'll be correct. Extra kudos for those who burned karma on delusion.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Lars T.]

imo there is a certain amount of truth to that but generally only at a products release or update. Apple don't tend to change prices unlike many others (take Dell for example)

Of course the times Apple has lowered prices, people were in a rage that they did (because they "just" bought one 2 months ago).

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[daveime]

Yup, those 1 button mice can be hellish expensive.

All you can find these days is cheap-and-nasty 2 button mice with scroll wheels and handy single click double click buttons.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[cayenne8]

"I spent 10 min comparing apples store on the website using 20 and 24 in imacs and 20 and 24 inch dell xps all in ones. Obviously you cant get them identical but similar machines had the XPS dell's (which are already overpriced) coming in at a few hundred dollars cheaper."

Well, a couple hundred dollars isn't much of a difference....

I guess at that point, you can look at the asthetics of the iMac vs a Dell...and for that extra bit of change, you get an all-in-one stylish bit of machinery (no clunky box with wires running to/from screen), and a bit more software included (iLife with photo, movie, garageband..etc for example). I'd guess if you threw that into consideration, they would be pretty much the same.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Achromatic1978]

Yes. I mean, shit, there I was thinking that $1,200 for 2 x 4GB sticks of 1066 RAM for a MBP was reasonable. I mean, it's not like those same sticks can be bought from other suppliers for $600, right?

Aww, hell.

But what do we know - remember, Apple products are competitively priced! And they don't gouge you on extras and upgrades!

(Cue Fanbois wailing "But /everyone/ knows you never buy memory from Apple, you upgrade it after the fact and throw the memory that you paid Apple an exorbitant rate for in the first place in the trash! /Everyone/ knows that, troll!" in 3... 2... 1...)

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Anonymous Coward]

Nor underhardwared pieces of junk.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[A nonymous Coward]

I tend to think you tend to overuse "tend", but that's just a human tendency after all, and I myself tend to follow in many human tendencies after all.

But after all is said and done, I tend to understand you after all.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[drsmithy]

I would suggest that you price any other companies computer Spec for Spec It doesn't matter if you think the spec is important to you or not. (including Size, Weight, Dimensions, Video Camera,Keyboard type...), in general try to custom build the Mac Model. You will find the price of the Mac, will be about the same price as the competitors.

Of course, this places disproportionate value on certain things that are very uncommon outside of Apple. Like, for example, form factor.

However, for example, if all you want is a minimum buy-in point, then a PCs with roughly twice the hardware resources of a Mac Mini costs only a bit more than half as much, and a PC with only marginally less power than an 8-core Mac Pro costs _less_ than half as much.

If your primary interest is in what the computer does, rather than what it looks like, then nearly all desktop Macs are embarassingly overpriced (the laptops are harder to call).

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[vux984]

You will find the price of the Mac, will be about the same price as the competitors.

Essentially true for the base model, when they are launched. And then it goes down hill, because the Apple specs are practically obsolete before its updated, and then on top of that, they grossly overcharge for upgrades.

For example, Take a look at the base 24" iMac. It comes with 2GB of RAM... it costs $150 to go to 4GB. You can easily buy 4GB outright for LESS than it costs to get an extra 2GB from Apple.

Another example... Hard drive... it starts with a 320GB HD. They want $300 to upgrade to a 1TB drive. You can get a 1TB for $100-150 outright. With Apple its $300 and that's on top of whatever they valued the 320GB at.

Yet another example... $150 to upgrade to a 8800GS? What the fuck? A 9800GT is $130.00 outright for crying out loud, and is a much stronger card. And they want $150 to UPGRADE to an 8800GS?

Ok... its an all in one... so sure, maybe the video card is a bit trickier... I get why a 9800GT might not be an option. But I shouldn't have to pay $150 to upgrade to an 8800GS. $50 over an HD2600pro, tops.

Apple gouges on upgrades 'nuff said.

So how about an actual product comparison:

Apple 24" 3.06 vs Dell XPS 24"
bluetooth on both
gigabit on both
built in camera - 1.3MP vs 2MP
built in mic - on both
wifi - apple gives you b/g, dell b/g/n
4GB ram on both (apple upgrade / dell default)
750GB drive on both (apple upgrade / dell default)
24" screen - lets assume they are equal - who knows
built in speakers - lets assume they are equal
optical - dvdrw vs bluray
cpu - cor2duo in the apple, dell gives you a quad
video - 8800GS 512MB vs 9600M GT 512MB - i think the dell's is better
os - osx vs vista ultimate

Ok... so the dell all-in-one is equal or better in each spec, how about price:

iMac 2449.00 vs 2199.00 [ dell XPS one 24 (product)red ]

so its $250 less, comes with a quad core, blu ray, wireless n, better video card, and a better camera.

Oh, and the dell has a TV tuner too.

Dell win hands down. Not even a contest. Apple's not in the ballpark.

Worse if we can drop the 'product (red)' thing, which drops the bluray drive, and gives us vista home premium, the dell is $1899, still markedly better than the Apple, and now $550 less.

Maybe not all Apple's are overpriced... but this one, at least IS.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Anonymous Coward]

The different in security between the two primary operating systems is also worth the difference. OS X has been out a long time, and has yet to see a virus, worm, or widespread malware attack.

So, that might be a factor for people who value their data and their identity.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, a couple hundred dollars isn't much of a difference....

For a product that ranges from $1200 to $2000 (approx) $200-300 (he said a few, not a couple - nice try tho) can actually be quite a bit between 1/4 and 1/10 of the whole price. Offer me 10% discount of the same model (minus the little apple logo) and i'd say yeah - offer me 25% off and i'd say Hell Yeah!

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Anonymous Coward]

Congrats, Apple is not for you. That doesn't stop it being exactly right for many of us.

I really don't understand the passion. You oughta save it for something that's actually important and has an impact on your life. Flaming away on the internet just makes you look like an unsocialized retard.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[AnalogyShark]

(Don't include home built boxes, as you rarely add your labor to the price, and you pay for just the parts)

My major issue with the Mac line was the relative difficulty (or impossibility in most cases) to create homebrews. PC lines have always had much greater support for personal customization, and the price of labor, frankly, I don't see how an hour or two of my time could possibly be worth more than the hundreds of dollars I'd spend otherwise.
I've just also never been a fan of declaring my entire case a blackbox either.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[hazydave]

Well, funny thing... before I bought my HP dv9500, I did precisely this... I compared it, feature by feature, to the 17" Powerbook. Both were direct from manufacturer based on customizable web site builds. Of the things I cared about, the HP exceeded the Mac in every area except one: the Mac has both Fw800 and Fw400 ports, while the HP just the Fw400 (on 4-pin, sure, but it's for my camcorders, so that's fine).

The result: the Powerbook was $2999, the HP was $1280. Not even a contest -- Apple goes down in flames. This was done in December of 2007... I can't honestly claim that Apple hasn't halved their prices since then, but this "spec for spec" claim rarely if ever works outside the bounds of a few individuals' reality distortion fields.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[JiveDog]

You forgot something when comparing the systems.

Dell runs Windows or Linux.
Mac runs OS X, Windows and Linux...all native. No need for VMs.

Keep your TV tuner, I'll stick with my Mac.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[mlts]

One reason Apple is making money is that they are selling computers for people to get work/play done, as opposed to focusing on how fast their machines are. Apple sells the fact that machines running OS X have fewer security problems [1], and that they get the job done with little fuss. One of the Mac's strong selling points is that a customer can take a Mac home, plug it in, power it on, and be doing work/play almost immediately, with no nagware/crapware apps, pop-ups, or demands to install other utilities (antivirus protection, etc.) Macs also are more forgiving for people who don't keep with computer security basics, while it can be pretty easy for someone to get their Windows machine jammed up with malware.

Apple also offers good service. In these days where most PC makers force customers to withstand 3-4 hour hold times only to get an offshore phone bank with people reciting from a rote script when they try for customer support, Apple's availability of a Genius Bar for face to face talk, as well as good phone and web support is a breath of fresh air. A lot of people don't mind the premium for a Mac because they want their computer working, and Apple's support is excellent.

There is also the fact that Apple is also the vendor of their OS. There is no need to be transferred between the PC vendor and Microsoft, which often happens when the PC hardware techs think the problem is Windows, and the Windows guys think the issue is with software.

Yes, Apple hardware is more expensive at some platform levels than competing PC hardware, but a number of people buy Macs because they want to do work and have a single place to yell at if something goes wrong.

[1]: OS X's security can be argued endlessly why, from malware writers getting more bang for the buck from hitting Windows to the UNIX security model where application designers have been writing with the user/root distinction for decades.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[vux984]

You forgot something when comparing the systems.

Dell runs Windows or Linux.
Mac runs OS X, Windows and Linux...all native.

I didn't forget it.

First... you want to add Windows to your Mac?... add another ~$200 to it.

Face it, unless you want/need OSX, that 24" Apple imac is shit value for the hardware.

Of course, if you want/need OSX then it doesn't matter how shit the value is because you don't have any real choice. Its either get an Apple or strike out into the land of Hackintosh. (But remember, if you do strike out into the land of hackintosh, it runs native -- "no VMs are needed")

No need for VMs.

Ironic that you bring that up actually. Because while you might not NEED VMs, if you happen to WANT VMs instead of triple booting, you might as well get the Dell, because you Apple won't let you VM OSX even on a Mac. (except for OSX server) and you have to strike out into the land of hackintosh anyway.

Keep your TV tuner, I'll stick with my Mac.

And the quad core cpu, and the faster video card, and the bluray drive, and the better webcam, oh yeah, and the $250 bucks cash.

I get ALL that extra. You give all that up for the priviledge of booting OS X with Apple's blessing. Was it worth it?

You must REALLY value OS X. You'd be paying a $500-$600 premium to be able use it.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Anonymous Coward]

You're absolutely right. This is the downside of Apple's limited number of models and the relative infrequency of hardware refreshes. Add to that the fact that the product price never get's lowered and it's easy to see why in many people eyes Apple is overpriced.

To be fair. At this moment the iMac is the worst value in Apple's lineup and is listed as a strong DO NOT BUY in MacRumour's Mac Buyer's Guide. It's long overdue for a refresh. Once the next hardware refresh occurs (rumours say March, but who knows) it probably won't be so clear cut (for the time being).

First and foremost, Apple is a boutique product and doing damn well in spite of it.

You're never going to be able to come up with a justifiable price vs. performance matrix on a Gucci handbag.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[guruevi]

Still, I work in research environment and I find it impossible to find an 8-core Xeon on par with the current Mac Pro for less than the Apple price and that thing is almost a year old. Yeah, I can find it in a 4-core or 8-core desktop CPU (ECC is kinda important if you're running large computations over several days) and I can find it in several older CPU's but then they don't support enough PCIe or multiple hard drives. And then there is an extra surcharge for 64-bit Windows.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Anonymous Coward]

Just add $50 for the labor(really expensive), some stores let you choose the pieces and they assemble the machine.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[RedK]

The iMac 24" comes with an S-IPS panel screen. Your Dell comes with a cheap TN Film. There's your price differential right there. It's also nice you falsely claimed the Mac didn't have 802.11n and got modded up anyway.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[vux984]

Right, because $2449 and $2199 are "not in the same ballpark".

-sigh-

Look at the whole picture.

The dell has everything the apple has (except for the OSX to VistaU substitution). It also gives you bluray, and a tuner, and a better camera, and a better cpu, and a better video card. So lets put a retail value on all that stuff... bluray reader/dvdrw combo... $150, 'better' camera $20, tuner $80, cpu $50, video $50... so say $350.

So the Dell is $250 less, and has $350 worth of extra hardware. Meaning the difference is effectively $600. That's 25%. That's not in the same ballpark.

You know what else isn't in the same ballpark? OS X and Vista.

They are different but they are both in the same ballpark.

If you had two identical iBooks in front of you, IDENTICAL, except one had 4GB of RAM and was running only Vista and one had 2GB of RAM and OS X, which one would you use?

The Vista unit hands down. Pure economics: buying a copy of OSX is MUCH cheaper than upgrading the RAM and buying a copy of Vista.

But set that aside for a moment... even if I wasn't going to dual boot it:

I also do like games (Fallout 3, Bioshock, ...) I don't much care for most of iLife so it has little value to me. Open Standards for the win.

The only OSX-only app I really actually prefer over anything on Windows is iPhoto. But I prefer Visual Studio to Xcode (and Eclipse). Everything else I really care about use is cross platform, except my accounting software.

That said, I do most of my gaming and programming on my desktop, so my laptop really could be either. I'd prefer the Mac simply to have more exposure to the OS. And my previous laptop was in fact an iBook that I used until a couple years ago.

My current laptop is an older toshiba running kubuntu, but I didn't buy it, after my ibook died, the toshiba fell into my lap for free but with a fried hd. So I fixed it up and installed ubuntu, and its serving me well. I was planning on buying an macbook as my next laptop... although I am currently REALLY impressed with the touchscreen HPs that launched a few months ago, so I'm less sure now what I'll be buying.

Also, what other software does the Mac and the Windows computer come with?

Nothing much worth anything to me in either case. OpenOffice + FF + Thunderbird + Citrix + Remote Desktop client and I'm basically set for my laptop. Like I said, I'm getting on fine with Kubuntu.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Achromatic1978]

And yet I'm posting this from a MBP. Egads. An Apple user who acknowledges that Apple absolutely gouges on certain components.

What's that popping noise? Your hard-wired brain exploding? A paradigm shifting without a clutch? (with apologies to Dilbert)

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[vux984]

The iMac 24" comes with an S-IPS panel screen. Your Dell comes with a cheap TN Film.

Interesting theory. Too bad its clearly WRONG.

The 20" model has 160 degree viewing angle, and is clearly a TN panel... but then so is the Apple 20" so no winner there.

I can't say for sure what the XPS one 24" comes with but its got the expanded viewing angles that means its using at least a *VA panel. For all I know it could be IPS too, especially since one of Dell's more popular 24" panels is the 2407WFP which is IPS. I wouldn't be surprised if they based their XPS one 24 around it.

Either way your TN panel theory is dead.

There's your price differential right there.

As its an IPS or *VA panel, its in the same ballpark as as the imac screen.

It's also nice you falsely claimed the Mac didn't have 802.11n and got modded up anyway.

1) Yes, I misread the wifi specs when I skimmed it. My bad. But seriously its a minor point, and correcting it has no real impact on the argument I made.

2) You just falsely claimed the XPS one 24 has a TN panel. Its a bigger error and was the chief argument in your post. How do you think the mods should treat you?

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[RedK]

The 2407WFP and more recent 2408WFP use PVA panels from Samsung, which are cheaper than S-IPS panels. This also isn't the norm, as their consumer screens are all TN Film, and they make a point to say PVA or IPS when a screen uses those panel types, which they don't for the XP 24". The specs on the Dell are actually very awful, or very wrong (I'm guessing wrong). Directly from their site: Wide Viewing Angle (up to 89 degrees). What does that even mean, is it horizontal or vertical ? Even they don't use that notation on their monitors. 90 degrees means not even 45 degrees each side in the usual notation. So before saying people are WRONG capitalized, maybe you should actually try to know about the product you're trying to push.

Another thing, the Dell is made of cheap plastic, the iMac is made of glass and Aluminium. You're going to contradict that too ?

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[vux984]

The 2407WFP and more recent 2408WFP use PVA panels from Samsung, which are cheaper than S-IPS panels. This also isn't the norm, as their consumer screens are all TN

I thought the big dell ultrasharps were all IPS. Now that I'm digging it appears some are and some aren't. With changes between revisions in some cases.

Yes their consumer screens are all TN. (Although this is the direction apple seems to be taking to now.)

The specs on the Dell are actually very awful

No worse than the specs on Apple's imac online specs sheet with respect to the screen. Its not like Apple claims its an IPS. Sure the last one someone took apart was an IPS... who knows what next month will bring. Apple's substituted screens in revisions too you know.

Directly from their site: Wide Viewing Angle (up to 89 degrees). What does that even mean

Seriously? It means +/-89 degrees from viewing it head on, which is 178 degrees total (89x2). Lots of manufacturers have represented viewing angles like this. They likely don't specificy horizontal vs vertical because nearly all IPS and VA panels are the same: 178 in both horizontal and vertical.

90 degrees means not even 45 degrees each side in the usual notation. So before saying people are WRONG capitalized, maybe you should actually try to know about the product you're trying to push.

Stop acting 12. I admit when I was wrong. You should too. You are wrong about it being a TN panel. Deal with it. Or do you seriously plan to persist with your theory that its an 89 degree total viewing angle?

Another thing, the Dell is made of cheap plastic, the iMac is made of glass and Aluminium. You're going to contradict that too ?

1) How much difference do you think the material choice makes to the price? Aluminum is .65 cents a pound. If the entire imac were solid aluminum, it would cost $20 bucks. Tooling/production is more expensive for aluminum too so actually making the laptop is a bit more, but then apple only makes like 5 different chassis, and doesn't change them for years, so it easily balances out with the multitude and constant revisions dell has. I don't think it costs as much more to make as you seem to think.

2) How much performance difference do you think an aluminum imac makes? Does aluminum convey any benefit whatsoever? In a laptop its increased rigidity and low weight makes it a useful material to squeeze size down a couple mm... but what difference does it make in a 24" desktop PC?

Out of curiosity what if Apple used gold instead of aluminum, the price would sky rocket, and it would be completely pointless. Would you defend paying extra for a gold PC too?

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[failedlogic]

Does it even really matter? Most people surf the Net and wordprocessing. I have an iMac and a bigger/better quality LCD for my PC. If there's a difference in the pannels between the two, I don't really care wether for gaming or movies or otherwise. Maybe someone in commercial GFX design cares, but most people buying iMacs aren't.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Fred_A]

For example, Take a look at the base 24" iMac. [ ... ]

Nobody bloody cares. People who want a Mac get a Mac, people who want something else get something else. It's all out there in the stores. Nobody's forcing anyone.

And Sony laptops are overpriced too. It's a scandal. What's the government doing about it ?

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[goodmanj]

Sorry, couldn't resist. ;-)

I believe you have just committed a terrorist act. Deliberate forum sabotage is a dangerous game, my friend.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Daengbo]

That said. Apple has a limited line and there are a lot of gaps for what people want in a computer, So the Apple may not be the best value for them. But as for its price their prices are competitive.

I'm reminded of one of the first scenes in Fargo about the TrueCote treatment. "We don't want that." "Well, you see, it comes from the factory that way."

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't much care for most of iLife so it has little value to me.

Thanks for letting me know this important detail regarding your pricing methodology!

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Daengbo]

OK. I took your advice. I looked at Apple, Dell, and HOP because they were the first ones that came to mind for on-line ordering. I've never done this before or bought any of the brands I looked at, so I'm not a fanboi. The results:

Apple iMac 24"

• Cost: $2199
• CPU: 3.06GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
• RAM: 2GB memory
• HD: 500GB hard drive
• DVD: 8x double-layer SuperDrive
• GPU: NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GS with 512MB memory

HP IQ800t -- This is 26", not 24".

• Cost: $1939
• CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Duo Processor T8400 [2.26GHz, 3MB] -- This is slower than the Mac, but it's the highest offered.
• RAM: 4GB DDR2-800MHz system memory [2x2048] -- More memory
• HD: 500GB 7200 rpm SATA 3Gb/s hard drive -- same HD
• GPU: 512MB NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GS HD -- Better GPU
• DVD: Slot-load SuperMulti DVD Burner -- Probably the same, but who knows?

Dell XPS One 24 24" -- same as Mac

• Cost: $1899
• CPU: Intel® Coreâ 2 Quad Q8200 processor -- Quad core, newer chip, same FSB but 2.33GHz. Cores vs. GHz.
• RAM: 4GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 800Mhz - 2 DIMMs -- More RAM
• GPU: 512MB NVIDIA® GeForce® 9600M GT -- Newer GPU
• HD: 750GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s Hard Drive --Bigger HD.
• DVD: 8X Slot load CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) -- Again, who knows?

The results are questionable because I don't see nearly as many specs listed for the iMac as for the other all-in-ones. Both the HP and Dell include stuff like remotes, wireless keyboards, and bluetooth. I assume the Mac has all these. Both Vista-based ones come with MS Works and varios other productivity software, while the Mac comes with iLife. I call it about even.

The bottom line, though, is that I can get a better CPU (I prefer cores over raw GHz), more RAM, a newer GPU, and a larger hard drive in the Dell for $300 less, or I can get a remarkably similar machine overall (slower CPU but better GPU and RAM) with a slightly bigger screen from HP for $260 less. Either way, unless you want/need OS X specifically, Macs seem to lose.

No, this isn't a comprehensive run-down. No, I couldn't get everything exactly the same. I only chose one model and looked at it. I chose one of the higher-end Macs because I've heard that's here Apple is competitive. Interestingly, the Dell includes some nice extras like in-home warranty service and remote access / on-line backup (which I guess equate to Apple's pay services).

I doubt this post will sway you, but there are the raw numbers. Oh, and I'd like to add that I don't plan to buy any of them.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Anonymous Coward]

And you forgot that Windows allows you to run the vast majority of software out there. It has also been trivially easy to patch a Mac OS X disc image and install it on any PC for years now, but why let reality get in the way of your fanaticism?

Keep your tiny little Mac software library (most of which already exists for Windows), nobody with Windows is missing anything. What you're suggesting would be like telling a homeowner that they are missing out because they don't have a lean-to.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, a couple hundred dollars isn't much of a difference....

Ha.

you can look at the asthetics of the iMac vs a Dell...and for that extra bit of change, you get an all-in-one stylish bit of machinery (no clunky box with wires running to/from screen)

Do you even know which Dell the GP was talking about? I think many potential buyers will prefer the looks of the Dell XPS One to the iMac. The XPS One ain't no boring beige box and there are no wires running to/from the screen. In fact, the XPS One has fewer wires than the iMac by default (because of the default wireless keyboard/mouse)

and a bit more software included (iLife

iLife costs $80 to (optionally) upgrade every year.

with photo, movie, garageband..etc for example).

Windows Live Photo Gallery (iPhoto), Live Movie Maker (iMovie), and Visual Web Developer Express (iWeb) are free downloads with free updates for Windows XP, Vista, and 7. Windows DVD Maker (iDVD) is a part of Vista and 7 (with free updates). I cannot think of a decent, free Windows equivalent of Garage Band, but that's the only part of iLife that's worth anything (for some users).

I'd guess if you threw that into consideration, they would be pretty much the same.

If you consider the XPS One's wireless mouse/keyboard (add $50 on the iMac), integrated HDTV tuner with DVR capabilities, integrated 8-in-1 media card reader, better graphics, and even Blu-ray option, then the iMac seems way overpriced.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[MojoStan]

their consumer screens are all TN Film, and they make a point to say PVA or IPS when a screen uses those panel types, which they don't for the XP 24"

Apple doesn't either for their 20" (TN) and 24" (IPS) iMacs.

The specs on the Dell are actually very awful, or very wrong (I'm guessing wrong). Directly from their site: Wide Viewing Angle (up to 89 degrees). What does that even mean, is it horizontal or vertical ? Even they don't use that notation on their monitors. 90 degrees means not even 45 degrees each side in the usual notation.

Are you too dense to figure out that 89 degrees times 2 equals 178 degrees? From the iMac's specs:

• Typical viewing angle
  • 20-inch models:
    160 horizontal
    160 vertical
  • 24-inch model:
    178 horizontal
    178 vertical

Neither Apple nor Dell list panel technology in their iMac and XPS One specs, but it's obvious which ones are TN (20" models) and which are IPS or *VA (24" models).

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[risinganger]

haha. I had to go back and re-read my post. You're right, I did use the t*** word excessively.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[risinganger]

I'd forgotten about that debacle. Just goes to show Apple aren't perfect. They don't alter prices on a regular basis to keep products as competitive as they were when introduced, but over-compensate with the iPhone and alienate a whole bunch of people. Between those two is a happy medium.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[jellomizer]

That isn't the point. The claim is that Macs are over priced which is the debate, not the fact if the specs are for your needs or not. There is the perception that somehow Apple is getting a much higher profit/PC then other companies aka Making their products more expensive then the rest of the market. While it is more the fact that Apples limited product line leaves gaps for individual needs.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[jellomizer]

Windows Live Photo Gallery (iPhoto), Live Movie Maker (iMovie), and Visual Web Developer Express (iWeb) are free downloads with free updates for Windows XP, Vista, and 7. Windows DVD Maker (iDVD) is a part of Vista and 7 (with free updates). I cannot think of a decent, free Windows equivalent of Garage Band, but that's the only part of iLife that's worth anything (for some users).

And you don't need to get Photoshop because MS Paint does the job too.
There are free updates to the product. You just don't get major versions. With the Microsoft Me Too! Crapware, you are probably still better off sticking with an old version of iLife then using the new versions of this stuff.
For a closed source company you need to beware of the word Free. Either it will have some strings attached to just be a really bad product.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[Beowulf878]

$500 to avoid windows is cheap at twice the price.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[vux984]

$500 to avoid windows is cheap at twice the price.

Paying an extra $500 just to spite microsoft is hurting your bottom line a lot more than it hurts theirs.
And you can avoid windows by just formatting and installing linux when it arrives. That avoids windows and keeps the $500 in your pocket.

Re:Fantasy: Apple computers aren't overpriced

[vux984]

Does it even really matter?

It matters for a debate on relative hardware value. If you were comparing honda wheel nuts to porsche wheel nuts, and the porsche ones are triple the price, you might conclude that the porsche ones are 'over priced'. However, since the Porsche ones are made of Titanium instead of Steel -- you can still argue whether or not you actually need titanium ones, but its no longer a case of simply paying more for the same thing.

Same goes for a TN vs IPS/*VA panel. If the Mac comes with an IPS and the Dell with a VA that significantly impacts the debate on value. You can still argue whether you need IPS or not, but the hardware value proposition changes. However, the Dell 24 doesn't have a TN panel, so that whole argument is moot.

I have an iMac and a bigger/better quality LCD for my PC. If there's a difference in the pannels between the two, I don't really care wether for gaming or movies or otherwise.

Are you -sure- you have a bigger / better quality LCD for your PC? What model do you have? You generally have to special order or go out of your way to find the better quality technology. Pretty much everything at the average best buy will be TN, regardless of price.

And if you see an IPS side by side with a TN its like night and day. Compare them when looking at them obliquely (not head on), sit down on the floor and look up at it. (The IPS will be readable, the TN will look almost inverted.) These differences aren't too big a deal if you only use it looking head on, but if it doubles for watching movies... if you've got 5 or 6 people watching, and kids on the floor looking up... the TN is a complete disaster.

The IPS also has markedly better richer color, better greens especially, and no dithering (because its 8 bit instead of 6 bit). This isn't crucial for everyday web browsing, but of course is for any sort of professional work.

Not everyone needs an IPS; and the TN is more than adequate for most people. But if you do shell out for an IPS, like a Porsche, you are getting something extra for your money.

Steve Jobs is Dead!

[eldavojohn]

After signing a contract with Michael Jackson to put the entire Beatles catalog on iTunes, he picked up his iPhone Nano to call Jay Z and confirm that he would be starting a record label with the rapper. At the same time he was trying to multi-task and he hit "send" on an e-mail firing Justin Lang from the "I'm a Mac" commercials on his $800 MacBook Pro. At that point he accidentally swallowed his iPhone Nano, choked on it and died.

The scariest part? Watch the stock fluctuate to each of those headlines.

Re:Steve Jobs is Dead!

[Spazztastic]

Wait wait wait... he died again? This is the third time!

Re:Steve Jobs is Dead!

[Spazztastic]

Wait wait wait... he died again? This is the third time!

(Take two: Fixing my dead link.)

Re:Steve Jobs is Dead!

[Arancaytar]

Ssshhh! You're setting yourself up to be sued by Apple shareholders - should've posted AC. :P

Just compare against this handy list

[Xest]

Apple products overview
=======================
Pros:
- It looks cool
- It sounds cool
- It probably smells cool
- It probably even tastes cool

Cons:
- It's expensive
- It lacks features initially

Any rumour about an Apple product where the details of the rumour fall outside this list is false.

Re:Just compare against this handy list

[rarel]

Apple products overview
=====================
Pros:
- It looks cool
- It sounds cool
- It probably smells cool
- It probably even tastes cool

Cons:
- It's expensive
- It lacks features initially

What nerds actually gives a damn about:
- Will it blend?

Any rumour about an Apple product where the details of the rumour fall outside this list is false.

TFTFY ;)

Re:Just compare against this handy list

[jo_ham]

You forgot the last con:

-for every Mac you buy, Steve Ballmer deflowers 4 virgins (with the same chair, simultaneously).

Re:Just compare against this handy list

[Anonymous Coward]

Sometimes stupid comments can be funny. This is not one of those times. Your post is just stupid.

Re:Just compare against this handy list

[Anonymous Coward]

each time a mac fanboy cries a puppy dies

your crying just made a puppy die

Re:Just compare against this handy list

[jo_ham]

Do you not know my posting history? I'm a pretty big Mac fanboy myself. Own 7 of them, bought new OS X releases at retail price, own a iPhone, 2 iPods, apple wireless igloo...

Sometimes you just have to joke, eh?

Clue:

[NoTheory]

Consumers don't care about apple rumors. They can't buy rumors.

The only care about what products are available. Only fanbois and panicky investors care about rumors (normal investors should be in it for the long haul anyway).

Sort of an interesting read on why we should ignore mac rumors (and mind you i own 4 macs in my house and use them for dev, so i love 'em just as much as anyone), but otherwise a pretty pointless piece of reading.

I guess it's still better than idle.

Drive Pruchasing Decisions

[Ohio Calvinist]

I have to disagree. Some, like I, listen to the rumors to help drive their pruchasing decisions. For example, if I found out that Apple was going to release a faster Mini, or drop the price on the iMac, or release an 64GB iPhone; depending on my goals, I may wait to make a purchase to get that 64GB version or wait until so the 32GB price drops.

I have people all the time who are considering a new computer (or are considering making the switch) talk to me, and sometimes I can say "I've heard they are releasing a new model with a better screen, and better specs for the same price soon. If you can wait 2-3 months, you can get a faster box for your money" or "I saw a leaked picture of the new Macbooks which look really nice and/or have more ports. I'd hold off for a bit." In the case of those wierd iMac "flower" models (with the LCD on a stick) I had a friend who wanted one really bad, and I heard they were going to be discontinued for the newer model, and she was able to go out and get one before they would be hard to come by new.

All in all, I guess what really matters is how much your situation allows you to flexible to get the most for your money considering "rumors."

That being said, some rumors are a lot more useful than others. (e.g. Apple might be developing a phone vs. a tablet might be released at MacWorld next month).

Re:Drive Pruchasing Decisions

[Anonymous Coward]

This one of my biggest beefs about Apple. If I were working for a large company, I can go to IBM, Sun, or Microsoft, sign a NDA, and see what the roadmap they have lined up for the next several years will be.

Apple doesn't have this. If I were running an enterprise and needed to time having funding when Mac Pros needed refreshed, I really couldn't. I'd have to go by whatever rumors were floating around to see if I were to buy a batch of computers now, or wait a quarter when they are refreshed for maximum bang for the buck.

Re:Drive Pruchasing Decisions

[Anonymous Coward]

So you can get better hardware for the same price if you wait a few months?

You must have some great sources!

Sometimes the truth sucks

[Shivetya]

but Apple's use of Intel chips and similar chip sets validated the comparisons. Outside of OS X what we have is cutting edge cases: packaging. Apple is the mastery of packaging and marketing. Throw in a long standing and in some cases deserved following and the die is set.

That isn't to say there is some value in packaging. Yet this what happens is that there is this great disconnect. I follow and post to various mac forums (being an owner on an iMac and two iPods does let me get away with it) where the same people who one day berate Alienware (insert name of any PC specialty maker) for charging high prices for essentially fancy cased machines will drag you into the dirt arguing why the case on the new "mac xxx" is so revolutionary that it deserves exception.

The primary problem is that too many in the Mac community still fail to recognize that Apple isn't just about computers. They go out of their way to ignore the boards on the site dedicated to the iPhone and Touch. Yet from those products one can see why much of the Mac hardware is what it is. Is Apple big enough to create a multitude of products for both the Mac enthusiast and the music/phone consumer? Considering the state of Mac I think they aren't. While I laud them on continued extension of OS X I am really annoyed at the hardware I am forced to run it on. Apple goes to no end to stomp anyone trying to use their hardware or software in ways they don't approve yet at the same time refuse to fill the void that is being called out by these upstarts.

Apple put themselves into the same position IBM was in, they have a common hardware platform in Mac with the rest of the PC world. Their market is ripe for a competitor. It is only a matter of time before one surfaces who doesn't just back down. Apple's reaction will be interesting once OS X cannot be held to just Apple made computers. Frankly they should license it to very specific ranges on computers to fill the void in their product line they refuse to fill themselves. Create a system of "OX X" certified with real enforcement. Will it happen, no but it is nice to dream.

Macs are like Harley Davidson, only a fool buys them new. Get them used and save yourself the expense. Exploit the irrational expectations that some of the community have for having to have the newest item, this years new case. You will get a good machine and have the very same experience except you can look at your bank account and feel good about it.

Re:Sometimes the truth sucks

[cayenne8]

"Macs are like Harley Davidson, only a fool buys them new. Get them used and save yourself the expense."

Well, you're a fool ONLY if you are limited in your financial resources.

There are a lot of people out there with lots of disposable cash, even in these economic times. A few thousand dollars to drop is pocket change to them. So, it really is as easy for them to buy a new Harley or loaded Mac as it is for you to buy a slurpee at the local quickie mart.

That's largely the segment that these companies are marketing too....those and those just below them that 'wanna' be that wealthy.

Re:Sometimes the truth sucks

[BerntB]

Second hand Macs are expensive, AFAIK. Mechanical quality is high, etc but they mostly are quite expensive. but You pay for the UI and integration and the hourly cost is quite insignificant. Is it worth it? Depends on usage. My new Mac will be bad economy for me -- I mostly use Emacs, Ffox/Opera and bash.

This is not a flame (I don't know you and have no idea how you are on average), but my honest opinion.
The worst Mac fanatics I've seen under a decade are the extreme haters/trolls. They really go out of their way to spend lots and lots of time bashing Macs in places where there are Mac users. They also always claim that Mac users are fanatics, even the one who posted more than 10 percent of all posts over a few months... (-: Hello, Svante Wendel, you old mythomaniac! Still having lots of alter egos and canceling everything that contradicts you on Usenet? :-)

(Disclaimer: I've been running Debian/Ubuntu almost exclusively for quite a few years, but got a Mac again in December. My experience might be outdated.)

Re:Sometimes the truth sucks

[necro81]

Outside of OS X what we have is cutting edge cases: packaging. Apple is the mastery of packaging and marketing

you say that like it's nothing?

Re:Sometimes the truth sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd differ on the point of OS X. OS X is one of the crown jewels that Apple has, and it can be argued that it as well as the iPod saved Apple from bankruptcy.

OS X is one of the better operating systems out there. I can't think of any glaring weaknesses that are evident in the OS. One of the biggest arguments in its favor (and also applies to Linux, BSD, and other UNIX variants) is that companies who write for OS X understand the user/administrator privilege model and don't try to make every app on a system require root privs unless absolutely needed (which is a big problem with Windows, even though its no fault of Microsoft.)

The only thing that OS X really lacks is no built in facility for whole disk encryption. This can be remedied by third party utilities like PGP, but this functionality should be in the operating system. It would be nice for Apple to build some sort of BitLocker-like functionality into the OS so everything but a pre-boot stub is encrypted. FileVault is a good step in protecting user files, but there is still a lot of useful items to a thief outside of a home directory. Applications (especially license keys) and deleted files in /tmp come to mind.

Re:Sometimes the truth sucks

[Phroggy]

Macs are like Harley Davidson, only a fool buys them new. Get them used and save yourself the expense.

As someone else pointed out, second-hand Macs tend to be expensive. I definitely recommend checking out the available options (the Clearance section on the Apple Store web site is great, and PowerMax is a reliable seller of used Apple products) but buying new is often a better option. I'm typing this on an iBook I bought used from a friend who was upgrading to a MBP, but the other three Macs I've owned were all new, and the older used models that were available at the time would not have been good options for me.

We've finally reached the point where Core2Duo-based Macs are fast enough that even the used ones are quite usable, but CPU speed has long been a frustrating problem.

New Macs ship with the latest OS for no extra charge, which often has vast improvements over the previous version, and consumer-grade Macs ship with iLife as well. Upgrading the OS and installing iLife on a used Mac will add $208 to the price tag. If you don't need those features, then going used may be a better option for you. New hardware features can be nice too - I love the new buttonless trackpad on the new Macbooks.

Re:Sometimes the truth sucks

[dangitman]

Macs are like Harley Davidson, only a fool buys them new.

That's such an odd statement, as both Harleys and Macs are expensive to buy used. They have a premium over other used goods. You're not going to get a cheap used Mac unless you're willing to get something a couple of generations old. A used Honda? Sure, it starts losing value immediately. A used generic PC? Those are practically being given away.

Re:Sometimes the truth sucks

[Hyppy]

That's largely the segment that these companies are marketing too....those and those just below them that 'wanna' be that wasteful.

Fixed that for you. A better value is a better value, no matter what your level of disposable income. Just look at most self-made millionaires (there is an article somewhere on the Goog): they tend to drive their 10-year old midrange sedans into the ground because it makes more sense than spending 5-6 digits on "bling" every other year.

Re:Sometimes the truth sucks

[RedK]

You say that as if there's no value in the design and esthetics of Apple computers. To some people, having a nice aluminium computer is more important than having a cheap plastic casing.

Re:Sometimes the truth sucks

[Falconhell]

Yeh, we know mac users prefer style over substance, that is a given.

The reason

[captainpanic]

Maybe the reason is that there are more reporters who specialized in Apple products than actual engineers to develop them?

It's Always A Rumor

[Volatile_Memory]

... until the moment it appears on the Apple Store.

This was a whole lot easier

[grapeape]

This was a whole lot easier before The Woz joined Dancing with the Stars, now it seems the reality line has blurred.

Missing: If Rob Enderle says it...

[Anonymous Coward]

...it's wrong.

Not recent

[pauljlucas]

FTFS:

In recent years, fact-based reporting about Apple and its products has been almost completely overwhelmed by gossip, predictions, and speculation -- an amazing percentage of which is embarrassingly wrong.

This has been going on for a long time.

Analysts

[iJed]

Generally anything predicted by these so called analysts is almost certainly fantasy and is usually quite obviously so.

Some of the rumor sites (such as Apple Insider and MacRumors) have a better track record but even then are often wrong.

iPhone clamshell!!!

[Xtravar]

I hope the rumor about the clam shell iPhone is true... I want an iPhone (mainly for work reasons), but having a bare screen on an expensive device is kinda like... not wearing a jock strap while playing football.

Re:iPhone clamshell!!!

[jo_ham]

That's why I have mine in an easy-access case.

Oh damn, is that me perpetuating the cycle that Apple users just "work around" the perfection-in-design laid out by Steve?

(Although to be truly accurate, I dislike phones with hinges or sliding doors, so I like the form factor of the iPhone a lot, but I can see how people would like to have a way to open it out when in use to keep the screen protected).

Re:iPhone clamshell!!!

[goodmanj]

having a bare screen on an expensive device is kinda like...jock strap while playing football.

If Apple made an iQuarterback, it would have stainless steel testicles. In my experience as a serious electronics abuser, nothing short of a belt sander will damage an iPhone screen.

Forgot the most important one

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

Any rumour about Apple opening up OS/X for use on generic PCs, is ALWAYS false.

Wanting will not make it so. Repeat after me:
Apple is a hardware company.
Apple is a hardware company.
Apple is a hardware company.
Apple is a hardware company.

Keep repeating until you figure out why they will not sell you OS/X for your white box PC.

Re:Forgot the most important one

[wild_quinine]

Apple is a hardware company. Keep repeating until you figure out why they will not sell you OS/X for your white box PC.

I'm sorry, but that's bs. They're not JUST a hardware company. Hell, it's deabtable if they're even *primarily* a hardware company.

See, they also sell software.

You can buy it without buying hardware.

Some of it you can download for free.

Some of it is even cross platform.

As a matter of fact, there are very few items of Apple hardware that you can buy without Apple software. A few peripherals, and that's about it.

Every ipod comes with Apple software built in, and is useless without iTunes - yet more apple software. You can buy new apps for the ipod touch, and download new software updates. Not FIRMware, you understand. SOFTware. You might have gone through three or four differently aquired pieces of Apple software before you've finished synching your ipod touch with your 'White box' PC

Sure they're a hardware company.

We ARE talking about APPLE Apple here?

[denzacar]

Consumers don't care about apple rumors. They can't buy rumors.

The only care about what products are available. Only fanbois and panicky investors care about rumors (normal investors should be in it for the long haul anyway).

Apple's core consumers (no pun intended... also, a half decent name for a band) ARE fanbois.

And as for buying or selling rumors - read any blogs lately?

Re:We ARE talking about APPLE Apple here?

[goodmanj]

Apple's core consumers (no pun intended... also, a half decent name for a band) ARE fanbois.

Not any more. These days, Apple's core customer is a 14-year-old girl, begging her parents for an iPod Nano.

Not that hard

[CopaceticOpus]

1. Go outside, etc.
2. Wait for Apple to officially announce the next doohickey.

B/G/N

[daveywest]

All current Intel Macs include the 802.11n (draft) enabled as a default.

This has been covered in great detail before

[dprovine]

Just look at the Apple Product Cycle page.

This is coming up next.

[Anonymous Coward]

Their newest technology will be this thing they'll call Silent Computing. There is already a camera on top of the screen. In the new computers this will be on all the time and it will watch your facial gestures and eyes as you use the computer. You will be able to input things several different ways. Whenever your eyes move over something that spot will come into focus on the screen and light up. You will be able to speak and it will have flawless voice recognition with AI that will learn your personality and know what you mean when you talk to it but if you want to work silently you can mouth the words silently and it will still understand. In addition to the touch pad which is getting bigger and bigger all the time, the entire screen will become a touch screen with multitouch a la the iphone. Also there will be handwriting recognition and OCR on the touch pad and on the screen, which you will be able to do with a stylus or by holding up a sheet of paper with anything printed or hand written for the camera to see for even a moment and it will be input flawlessly, even fixing spelling mistakes but without inadvertently changing something that is not incorrect, because it will figure that out from the context. Also the speech system will be vastly improved over what they have now and it will sound completely like a human when speaking to you. The speech output, speech recognition, lip-reading recognition, handwriting recognition and OCR will work in every language, flawlessly.