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How To Argue That Open Source Software Is Secure?
Smidge207 writes "Lately there has been a huge push by Certified Microsoft Professionals and their companies to call (potential) clients and warn them of the dangers of open source. This week I received calls from four different customers saying that they were warned that they are dangerously insecure because they run open source operating systems or software, because 'anyone can read the code and hack you with ease.' Other colleagues in the area also have noticed that three local Microsoft Partners have been trying to strike fear in the minds of companies that respond, 'Yes, we use open source or Linux' when the sales call comes in. I know this is simply a sales tactic by these companies, but how do I fix the damage these tactics cause? I have several customers who now want more than my word about the security of systems that have worked for them flawlessly for 5-6 years, with minimal expense outside of upgrades and patching for security. Does anyone have a good plan or sources of reliable information that can be used to inform the customer?"
Really, that's a new low for Microsoft lackeys. Being ISV's you'd expect them to be a bit more honest and pragmatic. Turns out they're just like their evil overlords.
How about telling them that Microsoft has taken code from open-source operating systems like BSD (true) and people have discovered bugs which had been fixed long ago in the open-source versions, and missed in the closed-source versions BECAUSE they were closed-source?
Open source is verifiable. Closed source is not.
Open source is verified, by many people, who discuss it in public. Closed source is not.
Show them how quickly discovered vulnerabilities are patched and how much discussion each bug receives. Ask the competitors to provide access to their discussion groups and bug logs. Compare. Contrast.
The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster
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Of course, Microsoft Windows has proven that closed-source, proprietary software is secure. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-...
Microsoft is desperate to fight the lower cost of Open Source in these troubled economic times. Microsoft is having trouble justifying their economic exstence. So, instead of fighting on a cost basis, Microsoft is tryng to shift the battleground to a different arena --- one of security. Unfortunately, in the arena of security, Microsoft loses big.
He may be lurking hereabouts, but if not, here's his bio. I've been doing open source for a fair while - 10 years or so - but he's been talking to companies and coming up with good answers to various arguments against open source for much longer.
The Army reading list
If it's good enough for the NSA, it's good enough for you.
Open source software is like any report in an academic journal.
While a little more informal, it has usually been similarly vetted by competent experts in the field before it's been allowed into the wild, especially in large projects.
Therefore, it's much more reliable than closed source software like Windows, for which you have to take Microsoft's word alone, as opposed to the reviews of several top developers in their fields who approved the commits in the first place.
Plus, tell them to examine their sources; the bias is obvious.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
I had a professor say that kind of thing in class once. He said that "Linux will never be as secure as Windows because it's open source. Anyone can see the source code and use it to hack your computers."
It was completely involuntary on my part, but I let out a loud, and I do mean LOUD, "WHAT?".
He turned and looked at me, I said "I'm sorry but that's not correct. Look at OpenBSD, it's open source too and there has been exactly one remote exploit in a default install in the past six years. Microsoft wishes that Windows had that kind of track record." He stammered and stuttered and then moved on with his lecture.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I'd just suggest rolling on the floor in hysterical laughter, just sobbing until your chest hurts whenever anybody says that to your face. Maybe after a couple of times, people will get the idea.
For anybody too dense to get it, show them the You Tube clips of Gates & Seinfeld.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Show them trusted (kind of) and family name organizations that work on/use FLOSS. Big ones that jump to mind are the DoDs use of linux, the NSAs creation of SE linux and everyone knows who IBM is.
2 points.
Camping on quad since 1996.
Whether or not the source code is available does not make software less secure. The methods by which most script kiddies and actual hackers (if I can use that term with these losers) access systems are those which would not be more or less available given the source code. You take a given library, note the interfaces and find a way to break in. If you have a buffer overflow, all the better.
Though I am an OSS advocate, I do not fall prey to the "oss is better" or "closed source is better" simply as a security measure.
Bad (insecure) software can be written by any individual or vendor. It is how that individual vendor responds to exploits that is the key.
The Kai's Semi-Updated Website Thingy
Tell your customers that Microsoft is trying to sell them stuff. It has nothing to do with open source vs.closed source, just money.
Since 2004 The source code for windows is available for $20 on blackhat websites. SO it's avaialble for scrutiny by a very select few since possession is criminal.
Also it's worth noting that even for-profit companies like Sun and Apple often open source their code (e.g. apple's Darwin Kernel and openSolaris). And those companies have much better security reputations than Microsoft.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Disagree. Security is not a static rating but a process; part of that process is fixing found problems. Guess which is easier to fix: the stuff you've got the source to, or the stuff you have to wait 6 months before the vendor acknowledges as flawed.
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
I have several customers who now want more than my word about the security of systems that have worked for them flawlessly for 5-6 years, with minimal expense outside of upgrades and patching for security.
5-6 years? Go back and figure out the cost of purchasing the various windows software that you'd need (including all licenses, per-seat, etc.) over that time period. Don't forget the proprietary back up software and enterprise anti virus software. Then taking your hourly rates run the numbers for how often you would need to patch those systems (every week?) and toss in the time it would take you to *test* the roll out of those patches and then add more time for when it breaks everything despite your testing.
ROI goes a long way towards changing a customer's mind (which is why so many of them don't want to spend money on reliable backups :)
Don't discuss the attack, that's just playing into the hand they gave you.
What I would point out is the monthly patch cycle you buy into with MS.
Any vendor worth using releases patches as vulnerabilities are discovered, keeping software safe. MS doesn't do this, and claims it as a feature.
The rest of the world releases patches as soon as someone with eyes sees a flaw. This is a clear advantage and negates all the FUD you are seeing.
http://www.sans.org/top20/#z1
The critical flaws that were reported this year in Office products:
* Microsoft Excel Remote Code Execution (MS07-002)
* Microsoft Outlook Remote Code Execution (MS07-003)
* Microsoft Word Remote Code Execution (MS07-014)
* Microsoft Office Remote Code Execution (MS07-015)
* Microsoft Excel Remote Code Execution (MS07-023)
* Microsoft Word Remote Code Execution (MS07-024)
* Microsoft Office Remote Code Execution (MS07-025)
* Microsoft Outlook Express and Windows Mail (MS07-034)
* Microsoft Excel Remote Code Execution (MS07-036)
* Microsoft Excel Remote Code Execution (MS07-044)
* Adobe Reader and Acrobat Remote Code Execution (APSB07-18)
* Adobe Reader and Acrobat Cross Site Scripting (APSA07-01)
C2.2 Operating Systems Affected
Windows 9x, Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows 2003, Windows Vista, MacOS X are all vulnerable depending on the version of Office software installed.
While all operating systems are affected...
Linux has two mentions on the entire page while other operating systems just go on and on and on.
With Open source, MANY eyes are looking at it finding problems and fixing them.
With Closed source, FEW eyes are looking at it-- are probably only focused on bugs and enhancements that will return new revenue, and may remain unaware of exploits for long periods of time. For example, some zero day flaws get extensive script libraries written to take advantage of them before they are discovered.
Hackers, the real ones (who are very few) can see the windows assembler and C code via disassemblers and debuggers anyway.
At least some of them probably have access to Windows code. (It's not really that secret- several companies have copies of the code including China which is known to launch cyber attacks against windows computers)
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However, from dale carnegie, remember people decide with their emotions and then fit the facts to that.
You need to argue emotionally "Linux is safe because people really care about it and work hard to make it secure-- it's not just 'a job' that some jaded corporate programmer is phoning in".
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
DHS - linux
FBI - linux
Navy - linux
Air Force - linux
Wonder why those agencies are using such an "unsecure" platform...?
The argument that "anyone can read the code and hack you with ease" is false. To win the argument, one must explain the relationship between a _cypher_ (implemented in a program) and a _key_ (generated by a program). Secure programs are written such that even their *authors* can not hack them. The reason is because these programs do not directly provide security. Instead, for example, they may help users generate unique digital keys. Is is the combination of this digital key and the program itself (ie. the cypher) that provides security. Reading the source code will _not_ give the reader the key required to breach someone's privacy, especially if the program is good and can produce trillions of different and complex keys, each of which take a long time to test. Conversely, closed sourced programs are generally scrutinised by far fewer people, and as such they are generally less able to perform with the same speed, efficiency and reliability of their open source alternatives, including security related programs described above.
What is the #1 website on the planet today? Answer: google. How many machines does google have to support it's busines? Answer: tens of thousands. What operating system does google use? Answer: Linux. How many times has google been hacked in its 11 year history? Answer: Anybody, anybody? What is the #1 desktop operating system today? Answer: Microsoft. How many worms, trojans, viruses, etc. are there for Microsoft OSes? Answer: > 100,000 (source: pick you're favorite anti-virus company counting scheme.) How many times have businesses been hosed by using Microsoft software? Answer: Too many to count. The latest blunder today? The French navy. Reference: http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/020909-conficker-worm-sinks-french-navy.html Now for the last and most important question: What does Microsoft think that it knows about security that Gooogle doesn't? Because comparing their security track records, it's not obvious to me that Microsoft knows anything about security. --Johnny says when in doubt just ask Google.
1. Do not belittle or otherwise blow off the customer's fear. In fact, hear it, and agree that it's something to think about.
Them: "I'm worried about this Linux stuff. A guy was telling me that anyone could see the code, and just know how to hack it!"
You: "I can understand how that could be a concern. It is a little like having a map of the valuables in your house taped to your front door."
2. Explain why openness is helpful
Them: "Yeah, so what should we do?"
You: "To be honest, sir, the reason why we like that anyone can see the code is because that means anyone can fix those problems. And lots of people do, for the very same reason you are worried about it. They need something that's secure, and isn't going to surprise them."
3. Mention that serious people have a big stake in making this work.
You: "I should mention that a few companies have bet a lot of money on open source, and wouldn't be happy to see it easily broken. IBM, Novell, and Oracle, to name a few, have very large investments in Linux, and have donated many patches to make sure the code is secure. And for that matter, so has the NSA. They have actually extended the security quite a bit, with their Security Enhanced Linux."
4. Reassure them that people are thinking hard about this.
Them: "Yeah, but if anyone can see it..."
You: "...then you have to be extra careful. See, the strategy that Open Source follows, and everyone should, is to assume that everyone *can* see the code, so you better design it so that the real keys to the kingdom aren't in the code at all. You make sure the keys are completely in the hands of the owners of the system, so it doesn't matter if you can see how the lock works, you still don't have the keys."
5. Point out the obvious.
Them: "But what happens if someone tries to slip something in, and is really good at it?"
You: "Once in a while, someone tries. But when a thousand people might look at the files you are trying to sneak in, someone's going to notice. And then a hundred thousand geeks will make fun of you. In public, all over the internet."
All the technology in the world won't hide your lack of vision, talent, or understanding.
Since 2004 The source code for windows is available for $20 on blackhat websites. SO it's avaialble for scrutiny by a very select few since possession is criminal.
Also, Microsoft regularly allows universities and governments to look at windows source code under NDA.
Plus, Bill Gates testified under oath that it would be a security calamity for windows source code to be released into the wild.
Strangely enough, that hasn't happened with linux & openbsd.
"...[systems] that have worked for them flawlessly for 5-6 years, with minimal expense outside of upgrades and patching for security."
Prove, document, and send your customers exactly that. None of my customers give a rats ass about philosophy, they care about the bang for the buck.
If you can clearly point out to your customers that:
1. The sales calls they're getting are SALES CALLS. Your customers will realize that the salesman will spin things so that they buy his kit. That spin may not be accurate or apply to them.
2. Uptime of your systems in a given time period.
3. Cost of your systems/services over that time period.
4. Be honest, unplanned downtime in the same time frame for your systems/services.
5. Distill all of that to brief bullets or an executive summary paragraph.
6. Follow on with a request for feedback. You strive to provide the best service to your customers, make sure that they're happy.
7. Double check all of your numbers before sending, assume it will be shown to the sales people from other companies. CYA.
Waffling on about philosophy and visibility of code and yadda yadda is all well and good, but the person cutting the cheques does.not.care. What they do care about is ROI and cost/benefit. They care about your track record of performance.
I watched a "How's it Made" episode on combination locks. Knowing how a lock is made, didn't make it any easier to break into one. If the code is made correctly, the passwords can't just be bypassed. You can't just change the code and load it in for a fun filled night of hacking any more than you can with a closed source OS. That's how I'd explain it to a customer.
It is true - the GP said they used BSD licensed code and the source you cite agrees:
Furthermore, I think the GP was thinking of the BSD licensed zlib. This library had a security issue several years back. Linux / BSD / etc were patched almost immediately (just update a single library), but MS products, including DirectX, FrontPage, Internet Explorer, Office, Visual Studio, Messenger and the Windows InstallShield program, were not patched as quickly.
My pics.
You don't "argue" security--you test security. Offer your clients periodic penetration tests as a routine part of your service.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
They're getting scared now.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
That's also being disinformed - the Microsoft itself is ENDORSING AND FUNDING Open Source!
Just put the phrase "Microsoft funding apache" in any web search engine. It was on Slashdot a few weeks ago anyway. And show that to your customers. MS's CMPs are telling that Apache is insecure? Well, Microsoft is funding it and telling that it's good, so it looks like those MCPs know crap even about things Microsoft has say in officially and they shouldn't be trusted in those matters, or probably in any matters.
This is Slashdot. Common sense is futile. You will be modded down.
You must stress that being able to _read_ the code is not the same as being able to _write to the released codebase_. This is an assumption I have encountered again and again and again.
The evil thing is, people don't ask about this, they assume it's fact and that's that.
"We" need to make sure this myth dies.
With the risk of being modded into obscurity and burning all my karma:
Simply don't venture into the trap that OS is inherently more secure than closed source. It is unfortunately easily refuted. PHP, WordPress, Typo3, Drupal are all open source projects with very challenged security track records.
Security and open source - despite popular belief - seems to be orthogonal concepts. It seems to have more to do with the QA/QC processes in place than with the actual development model.
IBM just released a report which shows that Vista and Windows Server are actually hit by fewer vulnerabilities than "Linux kernel", although suffering from more malware. http://www-935.ibm.com/services/us/iss/xforce/trendreports/xforce-2008-annual-report.pdf
It actually show that through 2008 Linux kernel experienced 2x the vulnerabilities of Vista/Server 2008, Apple OS X was hit by 3x the vulnerabilities.
The IBM X-Force team went through the disclosed CVEs and attributed them to the operating systems. This way they didn't multi-count Linux because of multiple distributions, and also they didn't count vulnerabilities from the bundled apps from the distributions.
You may claim (as many surely will) that MS somehow "hides" vulnerabilities. However, that doesn't seem to be the case when you look at the information (the "bulletins") which is supplied with each patch.
Simply put, security seems to be an orthogonal issue. Open source does not seem to automatically or inherently guarantee fewer vulnerabilities or better in-depth protections. It doesn't seems to make it worse, though.
Claiming so will only make you vulnerable to counter-examples (of which there are many) and will allow the MS lackeys to paint you as an ideology-driven zealot.
Chunk it down. Point to the security track record of the products you recommend. Leave out the claim that they are more secure because they are OS, just claim that the products are produced by vendors that are accountable, dependable and transparent with proven security records.
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