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Microsoft Sued Over Vista-To-XP Downgrade Fees
Krojack writes with this excerpt from Computerworld:
"Los Angeles resident Emma Alvarado charged Microsoft with multiple violations of Washington state's unfair business practices and consumer protection laws over its policy of barring computer makers from continuing to offer XP on new PCs after Vista's early-2007 launch. Alvarado is seeking compensatory damages and wants the case declared a class-action suit. ... Irked at having to pay a fee for downgrading a new Lenovo notebook to XP, Alvarado said that Microsoft had used its position as the dominant operating system maker to 'require consumers to purchase computers pre-installed with the Vista operating system and to pay additional sums to "downgrade" to the Windows XP operating system.'"
Actually, what you are suggesting is very odd!
She had paid the "Microsoft tax" already, on the purchase of the PC.
Why should she have to pay another "Tax" to [downgrade to] something that works???
A pox on Microsoft...
If I had an Ass, I'd call it Fanny Bottom, then I could slap my Ass; Fanny Bottom, on the Arse.
The suit has been canceled after Emma Alvarado was abducted by a mysterious, well-organized, group of mosquitoes. When asked for a comment on the strange occurrence, Bill Gates is said to have laughed awkwardly while pressing his fingertips together. More on this as it develops.
I often hear people bitching about Microsoft's operating systems and the problems with doing business with Microsoft and its Partners. Why don't people just get a computer with a non-Microsoft operating system. Linux, Apple, Plan 9, BSD; there are plenty to choose from.
This would be like suing ford or gm for not continuing to keep last years engines for sale in new cars... this is just silly.
--- no sig to see here... move along.
It should be my RIGHT to choose - ie. not to pay for Vista if I'm not going to use it. A sale is a sale, Microsoft shouldn't care whether it's Vista or XP.
No sig today...
There's a big question about whether the courts can punish a manufacturer for what businesses in the retail chain sell.
I'd like to see MS taken down several notches, but unless there's some smoking gun, I would expect it.
Put identity in the browser.
If Microsoft were letting OEMs sell either version of Windows for vaguely similar prices, it'd be okay. The issue is that they're effectively giving away Vista, while charging for XP. Now companies often can give things away as loss leaders, but monopolists are more constrained in whether they can undertake that sort of activity.
This case is somewhat unusual because most of the lawsuits regarding dumping are e.g. giving away IE to kill Netscape, not giving away one of your products to try to kill one of your own other products. But it's possible that Washington state business law (vs. federal anti-trust law) has something that reaches that.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
And their history of anti-competitive behavior, I'm not sure this is the right case. Now if the case was making hardware makers decouple the hardware and software costs, that might be different. If MS could raise the price of XP in a competitive environment, even if they're competing against their own products, more power to them. The only element that's not right is the one that's been wrong for a long time. MS using it's monopoly position to run the OEM's and leverage their market position to freeze out competition. This case doesn't really get at that. Sounds more like someone whining they can't get XP.
But today there are a lot of good operating system choices. MS isn't the only game in town...as far as you can get past the OEM issue...not even the best game in town. If you could buy a retail copy of Windows from someone like Dell, and that cost was essentially the same as the price quoted on a new PC or laptop, then the market can really decide what the best OS for the money really is. When you don't have a choice, you don't have a market.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
I don't know if it's a weird psychological experiment you're doing, but after reading your title "Just give her Windows 7", I read your post as "and call it eleven".
From the article: "They have been forced to pay substantially more to acquire the Windows XP operating system than they would have to pay in a competitive marketplace," the complaint read. A competitive marketplace? Seriously? This person could have purchased something else. She could have bought a computer with Linux. What did people expect? A "competitive marketplace for Windows XP?" Companies take products off the market or replace successful versions with newer, "better" versions. Microsoft wanted to quit selling and supporting XP. Was Vista "better" than XP? Most people would say "no," but that doesn't change the fact that Microsoft can still shoot itself in the foot and sell something else.
I'm no Microsoft fan, but it sounds as if $59.25 to get a completely different commercial OS, XP, isn't an egregious fee when you purchased the crummy consumer version of the newer OS, Vista. On the other hand, had I bought a more expensive version of Vista for my business (which I have not done), I would expect that Microsoft would throw in XP for free, maybe so I could run some legacy software for my business that was not completely tested or compatible with Vista.
This makes about as much sense as someone buying a coach ticket on an airline complaining about not getting free drinks like First Class. The alcohol really isn't the issue, even though it may seem that way.
Make love, not reality television.
Microsoft deserves every last bit of it. make it stick, make it hurt.
I'd like to see computers sold at a price and have the OS as an option. Car makers deal with optional engine types and other optional features. Why can't computer OEMs.
Actually, where I work we paid 3x for Windows to run Linux on a machine. 1 for Vista, 2 to change that option to XP, and 3 we have a site license for XP.
Granted some of this was due to stupidity of people here, but the shear fact that we even had to pay beyond our site license for Windows to run Linux makes the phase "Microsoft tax" more than just a saying.
I completely agree with this.
Where is all this "modular operating system" i heard so much about? All the kickass features they went on about? The "change" we all wanted?
So much for that, yet another case of Microsoft's poisoned food.
When i saw Windows 7 Beta, all i heard was "VISTA VISTA VISTA VISTA" echoing in my head over and over.
Screw Microsoft, they can go to hell now, i am sticking with WinXP for now and fully switching over to Linux later on, i've had enough of their bullshit.
Microsoft isn't charging extra. The OEM's are charging extra for Windows XP Downgrade which Microsoft allows users and OEM's to install FOR FREE. OEM's have migrated to Vista and don't want to maintain deployment sets, support documentation and drivers for both operating systems so they're charging this extra XP tariff.
As a small OEM, I give my clients the option to go with either Windows XP or Windows Vista, as we sell relatively similar base models so it's easy for us to maintain concurrent deployment sets for both operating systems. This extra charge isn't Microsoft's fault.
The issue is that in order to buy XP, people were forced to buy Vista as well. That practice is called Tied Selling and it is illegal in many states.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Currently, Lenovo charges the same price for Vista Business and Vista Business downgraded to XP Pro. I order this option all the time. They also offer the same price for Vista Ultimate vs. Vista Ultimate downgraded to XP Pro.
While I'm not crazy about this setup, you must remember that you are effectively buying two license. At any time, you have the right to upgrade to Vista for free. Yes, you shouldn't have to buy the Vista license, but Lenovo at least is not charging business customers anything extra at the moment.
-Dan
If you are going to buy pre-made computers with an operating system, what do you expect? The market for computers without an operating system is zero, so nobody sells them that way. You can, however, put your own together for often somewhat less than the cost of the pre-made computer.
Then you get to choose how to put an operating system on it. Usually, for most people, it is very expensive to do this because you end up paying full retail price for the operating system. Whereas the pre-made computer folks are selling you a finished product with an operating system they paid $50 for instead of $200 like you can.
However, if you have a site license, are paying for MSDN, Action Pack, Empower or any one of a myriad of other programs, you pay zero for the operating system on your nice put-together computer.
Now how many people can actually do this? Oh, maybe 1%. Do you think you are going to get anywhere selling a product that only 1% of the people in the US can actually use?
If they'd simply pulled the plug on XP totally, and said, "that's it, we aren't going to sell XP any more, because it's old and we don't want to be lumbered with the after-sales support forever", then that might be a legitimate manufacturer's decision.
But they didn't do that, because they didn't want to lose the netbook market. So they said that netbook manufacturers could continue to buy, install, and sell-on XP, but laptop manufacturers couldn't. When you say to a company, "We have a product, we're selling it to other people, but we refuse to sell it to you to work with your products, because we now want you to buy a different product from us", then that starts to get dodgy.
It's a bit like if a car-seat manufacturer has two ranges of car seats, their older smaller range and their new wider deluxe range. They want manufacturers to build the wider seats into all new luxury cars that can take them, but if they discontinue the older range, they'll lose the section of the market that supplies cars where the newer seats don't physically fit. So they continue to sell both ranges, but tell manufacturers that they are "banned" from selling the older seats fitted to the larger cars, even if those same cars have been sold fitted with those same seats in the past. That level of interference is getting into "illegal restraint of trade" territory.
The question is, how much control should a dominant component manufacturer have over how their products are used? Should they be allowed to micromanage what people do with their products with these sorts of restrictions and conditions? If a product has already been certified for XP, should they be allowed to then tell a manufacturer that they can still buy copies of XP, but they're are no longer allowed to preinstall them on those particular machines because new MS policy is that those particular customers should be buying something else? Even if this upsets both the suppliers and the customers?
Now to me, it sounds like MS are probably legally in the wrong here (as they have been so many times before when it comes to OEM contracts). And they probably know that they're in the wrong, but figure that the stakes here are so high that they'd rather break the law and worry about the consequences later ... after all, none of their suppliers are going to want to sue them for fear of unofficial retaliation.
So this customer has decided, look, this is complete s**t - I should be able to buy the current software that I want on the machine that I want, without my supplier saying that they aren't allowed to do that because of some arbitrary rule imposed illegally on them by MS. So she figures, (a) it's unlawful and unfair, (b) someone should do something about it, (c) the laptop manufacturers won't, (d) she has the receipts that prove that this illegal behaviour by MS has cost her money, and (e) if it's illegal, and she's provably been damaged by it, then she's in a position to take a stand and sue, and maybe have the court ruling force MS to stop breaking the law (as she sees it).
Eric Baird
No, it's not like that at all.
Closer would be buying a First Class ticket, then being charged extra to move back into the almost empty coach section.
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
It IS your right to choose. And when Lenovo tells you that they're selling a machine with Vista on it, and you choose to buy it, you're making your decision. I know it may sound crazy, but if you don't want a PC with Vista, you shouldn't buy a PC with Vista.
I'd be a bit more sympathetic if they didn't tell her it came with Vista, but that doesn't seem very likely. All of the machines on lenovo.com make it very clear which operating system they have installed. And when you buy a machine in a store, there's almost always a sticker on the box listing the OS, amount of memory, hard drive storage, etc.. She knew what they were selling, and she chose to buy it.
Maybe not
It wouldn't hurt to offer a wiped hard-drive as a purchase option. Even if 1% of people would use it, it would cost extremely little to implement, and it would definitely not hurt other sales.
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
From Wikipedia:
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
Okay, I want Windows 98 on my computer. I'll sue Microsoft to get it too.
The difference here is that there was not anywhere near the percentage of people that preferred 98 over 2000 as there are that prefer xp over vista.
Also back when 2000 came out, it was very easy to still obtain a machine bundled with 98se, for a long time.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
All of the machines on lenovo.com make it very clear which operating system they have installed.
Unlike somewhere else where you can buy Ubuntu by mistake ;-)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't these users *opt* to downgrade knowing there would be an additional charge?
Not to mention that the charge is from Dell or HP or whatever OEM, and not Microsoft, but the customer opted for it.
I'm sure there's a poor car analogy for this, but I don't even need one to point out how dumb this appears on the surface. Maybe there's just something I'm not seeing?
-David
You should frequent people outside of IT a bit more...
I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that it would cost Dell more to offer a "blank hard drive" option, since with that option Dell would actually have to spend less time on those machines (not having to install an OEM copy of Windows).
I think it's the monopoly status, honestly. It changes the game a lot. I agree that normally they should be able to charge whatever they want, but we're still looking at a desktop monoculture. And if you are a monopoly with lots of government contracts, charging twice for your most popular product is a quick way to get lynched.
They got off pretty easy with the DoJ so I can't say I feel bad either.
The market for computers without an operating system is zero
Rubbish.
Even in the consumer/home market a small portion of users want bare machines - and vendors do sell them that way. Try www.pioneercomputers.com.au who will sell you just about any of their models of laptop, desktop or server with Windows, Linux, dual-boot, or no OS (try the build your own option with almost any model). Most small vendors will sell you a generic unbranded or "house-brand" PC with no OS. I can easily find many vendors who sell desktop PCs without an OS.
And as for servers, where Linux holds a significant portion of the user market, it is common to buy hardware without an OS. We do it all the time at work, because we put Ubuntu on almost all our servers now.
I am anarch of all I survey.
Thank you. I was all set to defend the GP for knowing how not to use the word "myriad." I set out to find proof refuting your Wikipedia citation, and instead learned that I've been an ill-informed snob where this word is concerned for years. Seriously -- thanks.
I am not left-handed, either!
Unfortunately, that's not an option for laptops.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that it would cost Dell more to offer a "blank hard drive" option, since with that option Dell would actually have to spend less time on those machines (not having to install an OEM copy of Windows).
Not hard-pressed at all. Without an operating system, they can't install all of the crapware. And if they can't install the crapware, they don't get kick-backs from the crapware companies for putting the advertising on all the computers they sell.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
It amazes me how easily people in the U.S. accept abuse. "... businesses in the retail chain" sell what Microsoft gives them to sell. Microsoft has a virtual monopoly. Microsoft is able to force abusive practices.
Microsoft DELIBERATELY released a KNOWN-BAD operating system. Why? To make more money.
Read the story on Slashdot about the email sent by top Microsoft executives. They KNEW Vista was troublesome.
And, they've done it before: Windows ME and DOS 4.0 are only two examples.
Microsoft 'Vista Capable' Settlement Cost Could Be Over $8 Billion
HP's Fury At Vista Capable Downgrade
Confidential Microsoft Emails Posted Online
No. The difference is that Microsoft was still selling XP. Just not to everyone, only to certain customers. Or if you really, REALLY wanted it, you could pay for both Vista AND XP. Because they abused their market control to push Vista on consumers who didn't want it by making XP cost more than Vista.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
Microsoft DELIBERATELY released a KNOWN-BAD operating system. Why? To make more money.
Anybody want to buy a peanut factory?
Do you have any hard figure on how much OEMs get paid for the crapware?
Dell lets you opt out of most of the crapware, anyway... at least they do when you buy through their Small Business site instead of the Home & Home Office site (which everyone should, because Dell's Small Business computers often cost like $300 less for the same configurations).
You are forgetting that PC makers have to pay microsoft for windows whether their PC actually includes windows or NOT.
Those are the terms to be able to sell windows on PC, if you don't like them as a maker, you are free to get windows from another vendor. Oh, wait, there is no such entity ? tough luck ... guess you're stuck with what is called the microsoft tax.
No. I worked for Microsoft tech support and I can tell you that we were not allowed to push customer issues back to the OEMs unless we could be reasonably sure that the issue was with either the hardware or something specific to the OEM's configuration. On top of that, I regularly received calls from customers who were told by HP or Dell or whoever to call MS because it wasn't an issue on their end. The OEMs may or may not offer decent Windows support, but they're under no obligation to. All of the companies involved have strict support boundaries, and if something appears to be an issue with something one of the other parties is responsible for, the support call basically ends there.
This poo is cold.
Microsoft are within their right to no longer sell XP if they wish
Yes they are. But they're not doing that. They're forcing their new product, knowing it's crap, and then offer XP.
Update for Windows XP (KB959252)
Install this update to resolve an issue in which you receive a 0x0000008e Stop error after you install security update KB954211 (MS08-061).
2/6/2009
That's not my definition of "archaic", sorry.
If you are going to buy pre-made computers with an operating system, what do you expect? The market for computers without an operating system is zero, so nobody sells them that way. You can, however, put your own together for often somewhat less than the cost of the pre-made computer.
You can't even buy a computer WITHOUT an operating system even if you want, how to prove that the market is zero if the option is missing?
We are paying Microsoft Tax - even if we don't use their operating system. And if we do, we may pay it twice because their licensing terms screws us.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
ROFLMAO.
Mac Pro: comes standard with 2 x 1GB sticks of memory - 800MHz, DDR2, ECC. Let's try 2 extra 1GB sticks of memory. Apple price? $500. NewEgg price for 2 x 1GB sticks of Kingston 800MHz DDR ECC memory? $67. So only 650% markup there, after all, Apple's gotta make money somehow, right? What with them being competitive on hardware pricing and all, like you say. 16GB, 4x4 GB. Apple price? $4,300! Sorry, I'm still crying with laughter at your claim about comparable pricing. NewEgg? $604. Still, it's better, only 610% markup. Let's not even look at the 32GB option, Apple only wants the price of a new car for that...
Oh, but "everyone" knows, you don't buy memory from Apple, right? How about hard drives?
1TB SATA 7200rpm hard drive. The Apple price? A steal, at only $450. Aww crap, there I was thinking I could get one from NewEgg for under $100! Oh, wait, $99 IS under $100! Score!
Let's try a video card. ATI Radeon HD 2600 Pro. Wow, Apple's almost competitive there, $130, versus $55. First we've seen with under 200% markup!
Maybe I'm not being fair, the Mac Pro is a "workstation" class machine, after all. Let's try the MBP.
Let's jump from 4GB to 8GB. Tossing aside 2 2GB modules for 2 4's. Apple: $1,200. Confusing, as they're only $360, even without the subsidized cost from the 2 x 2 you were going to get anyway. Let's be charitable, and call it $250.
Hard drives, 256GB solid state drive, same story, $750, though same drive at NewEgg is $540, and you're not subsidizing with a 320GB drive already, which realistic vendors only want $70 for.
So to cut a long story short, tell me again how Apple isn't overpriced.
The standard response to this is that OS X is worth it.
Being someone who is platform agnostic and generally uses many platforms, I don't agree.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
If you are going to buy pre-made computers with an operating system, what do you expect? The market for computers without an operating system is zero, so nobody sells them that way.
That's not even close to reality.
Any major company with a Microsoft site license has no need of a computer preinstalled with a Microsoft O/S. The first thing they will do with the equipment is wipe out whatever is there and install the offically approved corporate version.
The most vocal and most numerous of the Microsofties here say that the first thing one needs to do with a crapware infested preinstall is wipe it out and install from different media or from a pirated version.
Of the two work machines I have, there have been 6 microsoft license fees. 2 preinstalls (both wiped), 1 Microsoft Windows 2000 (enterprise site license), 2 Microsoft Windows XP (enterprise site license, 1 presumably an upgrade for the older box) and 2 Microsoft Vista (enterprise site license, unused as the company has not deployed Microsoft Vista). Neither of those machines run Microsoft Windows in any version today, thank God.
In Manila, you can walk into any commercial computer store and be offered a menu of choices that runs something like Microsoft Windows or Linux preinstalled and no O/S installed (Free DOS) at about a 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 ratio.
To say that there is *no* market for computers without a preinstalled O/S is disengenuous at best. Unless maybe you're suggesting that people in a 3rd world country are more tech-savvy than people in the United States. Are you?
Microsoft has built a business around selling people the same thing, over and over and over again regardless of whether it is being used or not. If that's OK with you, more power to you. Count me out please.
Intel 2.2-3.6GHz or AMD 1.8-2.6GHz with 1GB to 2GB of RAM and 80-320GB of HDD space and a Geforce 6200 or the AMD equivalent.
Sorry that I can't put it in nice list form, but ever since Slashdot went "web 2.0" I haven't been able to make lists. I'm a repairman not a web designer, dammit! But I work with both home users as well as SOHO and SMBs and I can tell you that the home users are at the above. Most of the SOHO and SMBs are actually running a little less than that because as long as the software required to do business works they simply see no ROI for buying new hardware. As I was telling a SOHO customer today I truly believe for most home users and small businesses we have already passed the "good enough" stage with computers and more and more folks are going to be fixing what they have instead of buying new.
And MSFT forcing Vista has helped with my business since nobody around here wants it. Thanks MSFT! I have a customer who is about to throw $120 at me after having thrown $50 to recover his files because 4 hours of trying to run Vista with a 2GHz AMD with 1GB of RAM and he said "I'll pay whatever, just make this damned evil thing go away and make XP come back." so I found a former customer who has a brand new copy of XP home sitting in a drawer for $70 and with another $50 for me to throw it on he will finally have his Windows XP. Of course Walmart won't give him his money back for Vista Home Premium(He asked if I could sell it and I told him none of my customers actually WANT Vista) so he paid over $100 for a doorstop. But that's what happens when you don't listen to your repairman. I told him to avoid Vista like the plague, but would he listen? Nope. Sometimes lessons are painful.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
The market for computers without an operating system is zero, so nobody sells them that way.
Curiously, I bought one that way just a few weeks ago. It was offered with Vista-SomethingOrOther preinstalled, but the shop also sells it without Vista and knocks euro100 off the price (I opted for them installing a second 1TB disk instead of the discount).
Then you get to choose how to put an operating system on it.
Simplicity itself. It took about 1 hour for a largely unattended install from CD of Ubuntu 8.10 64bit (plus formatting time for the disks). This included getting updates over the network (we have a fast link). Ubuntu recognized and supported every bit of hardware, including the dual monitors on the graphics card.
Now how many people can actually do this? Oh, maybe 1%.
Don't underestimate people, or the ease of installation of modern Linux distributions. The majority of people between 15 and 50 could probably manage quite well, and a decent fraction of those between 50 and 70. Of those aged 70+, it might be 1%, I'll grant you. To get a PC connected to internet, no further configuration would be needed after installing Ubuntu.
Since I have a home LAN with server, network printer, and a few PCs, I had to do some post-install steps - add more users & groups (easy), configure NFS (not particularly challenging) and install HPLIP, which automatically found our network HP printer/scanner/fax and set up the new PC to use them. These steps would have been necessary on any OS, and would not have been any easier.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
RTFA. Lenovo didn't provide a breakdown of the fees, but Dell did: their charge was $20 for installing XP *instead of* Vista, and $130 for providing a Vista license (which the user didn't want) as well.
This is a situation where the car was built with no engine, and the work required for installing either engine is the same, and there's zero warehouse costs for the engine, and the car manufacturer wanted and asked the engine manufacturer to keep the right to install the 2006 engine, but the engine manufacturer said they were only allowed to install the 2008 engine even though it had lower fuel efficiency and significantly reduced the car's performance and maneuverability.
The memory modules of the Mac Pro are *NOT* standard ECC DDR. They belong to the faster and more expensiveFB-DIMM family. :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fully_Buffered_DIMM.
By the way I don't the OP said that Apple upgrades had reasonable prices, but the systems themselves, which is partly true. Especially if you account for all the things that they come with, applications, ports and design/robustness. Just check Sony Vaio prices up
Peter
3dB$
You mean just 3dB. Decibels measure ratios; a 3dB difference is approximately equal to a 2:1 ratio, or a doubling, which is presumably what you meant. When decibels are used with another unit, such as your dB$, the extra unit refers to the amount that "0 dB", or a ratio of 1:1 refers to. So 3dB = double (approximately, not exactly), 3dB$ = double one dollar = $2, which is probably not what you meant. (To put it another way, 33dB$/30dB$ = 33dB-30dB = 3dB; 33dB$-30dB$ = approx $2000-$1000 = approx $1000 = approx 30dB$.) Logarithmic units can be confusing, but given that you seem to have been trying to use them to show off, I would have expected you to get them right...
(1)DOCOMEFROM!2~.2'~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
So Microsoft should be forced to sell XP indefinitely and provide support for it indefinitely?
So we should be allowed to force companies to sell products that they don't want to sell? Its their choice to sell what they want to sell. I don't care if they have a government-defined monopoly. There's way too many opportunities to switch to another OS. If MS is pissing you off, go for a Linux or go for a Mac (though I'd rather you didn't).
MS said well in advance they'd stop selling XP. You have no right to complain that you can't buy it after that point in time. She could have purchased a laptop with Ubuntu and purchased her own copy of XP from newegg or something. She was in no way coerced to do anything.
I use Windows and Ubuntu. I have my issues with MS and I want to try out a Mac, but the cost of entry is too high to justify buying one just for fun. No one is forced or coerced to buy any OS. If they don't know any better than they should try educating themselves about it. Ignorance is NOT a defense.
Sell computers with whatever you want installed, but require an activation key to be typed in in order to use it. Sell the activation key for an extra fee at checkout. If you don't activate, you're free to wipe your computer and use it as you wish.
Kind of like when you get a new credit card in the mail. You need to call an 800 number before you can use it.
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
Apple's hardware prices have been comparable to Windows PCs for years.
Mac Pro: comes standard with 2 x 1GB sticks of memory - 800MHz, DDR2, ECC. Let's try 2 extra 1GB sticks of memory. Apple price? $500. NewEgg price for 2 x 1GB sticks of Kingston 800MHz DDR ECC memory? $67.
I said Apple hardware prices, Apple buys RAM from others and doesn't make it. And yes, I admit Apple charges more for RAM than what Newegg and others pay for it. I even had someone in an Apple store tell me that if I wanted more ram than standard then I should buy it from someone else. When I said Apple's hardware prices are comparable that's what I meant, unfortunately you have to start with Apple hardware. Take the Mac Pro and get the price. Then configure a Dell, HP, and or IBM, er Levono, to get as close to the same specs and the Apple's price will be comparable.
All of the other examples you give are of hardware made by others not Apple. Now let's compare:
Mac Pro
Two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
2GB (2x1GB)
320GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT 256MB
Total = $2,799.00
Dell Precision T7400
Two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
2GB, DDR2 SDRAM FBD Memory
320GB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive
256MB PCIe x16 nVidia NVS 290
Total price = $3,738
The only part I'm not sure is comparable is the video card though both cards chosen support 2 monitors. You can however install a different card in the Mac.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Dude, those ARE the FB-DIMM prices. FB-DIMM long ago stopped being more than a few dollars off from the normal DDR2 option.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134688
Kingston 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 FB-DIMM ECC Fully Buffered DDR2 800 - $33.49 each, $66.98 total; GP quoted $67.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134862
Kingston 4GB 240-Pin DDR2 FB-DIMM ECC Fully Buffered DDR2 800 - $156.99 each, $627.96 total; GP quoted $604.
FB-DIMM memory does not invalidate his argument in any way.
You are still innocent until proven guilty. What's changed is what they do to innocent people. - notnAP, #26891325
Yes, because the average consumer can afford $1000 for a laptop and...what $2500 for a desktop that actually has an expansion slot? The reason Apple is hip is because it is expensive, same reason as Ferrari. I live next to a college with a good 75% Apple to PC ratio, and while they can't tell WHY an Apple is good or WHAT makes it hip, they can tell you down to the last penny how much it costs. When have you seen that with a Windows user?
In fact now it has become a pissing contest with the "Macbook Pros" VS the "Macbook Airs" with both thinking they are better than the other. Trust me, if they sold Apple computers for the same price as Dell they would go down in flames just as Porsche nearly went broke when they tried to sell a cheap sportster. Why? Because it ruined the exclusivity and thus the "cool factor" of owning a Porsche. That is why Apple will never sell "to the masses", because it will kill their high margin business selling to those that buy for the name, like BMW and Mercedes Benz.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
they can tell you down to the last penny how much it costs
It's a lot easier to keep track of one company's pricing than 10, especially when they only have 5 or so different models on the floor.
All I can say is, try using OS X before you assume the only thing Apple has going is polish. There's no good reason to judge a computer system based on who's using it rather than its technical merits. Reading the pro/anti-Apple posts on here makes me think we're back in the days of people flaming each other over BBS because someone had a Commodore and someone had a Tandy.
Anyway, how can you say that Apple doesn't sell to the masses? It's not like it's this boutique product that only 2,000 people have ever used. They have close to 10% of the market.