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Should Obama Give Stimulus To Open Source?

snydeq writes "InfoWorld's Bill Snyder posits a deeper relationship between government and open source than was proposed in last week's open letter to Obama calling for broader open source adoption: economic stimulus. Since software vendors urged the president to go open source last week, security companies 'have raised scary points about vulnerabilities in open source,' suggesting they could step in to help secure an open source switch. Rather than opt for this kind of security through obscurity, Snyder argues in favor of earmarking funds for open source development to instead ensure security through transparency. 'Once the government expands its use and support of open source, venture money — which is drying up in the current recession — would again start flowing to those small companies, allowing them to hire or rehire some of the tens of thousands of unemployed IT workers,' he argues."

30 of 525 comments (clear)

  1. oh god no by tritonman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's like an ANTI-Stimulus to us software developers trying to make a living.

    1. Re:oh god no by Jrabbit05 · · Score: 5, Funny

      get a job hippy.

    2. Re:oh god no by JoeMerchant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not a screw or be screwed world out there, buddy.

      You clearly have not dealt with the upper echelons of American business.

    3. Re:oh god no by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's like an ANTI-Stimulus to us software developers trying to make a living.

      Get used to it. The stimulus (and, it seems, many of the Obama administration's policies) are designed to reward failure. Not that he started that trend - the big wall street bailout (TARP #1) rewarded all the banks that were failing, too.

      Just as an example, the stimulus provides tax breaks to workers that amounts to about $8 a week, while providing $25 a week more for unemployment compensation payments. The failing auto industry got billions as soon as the Dems took over, and they're now at the door asking for more.

      Obama's mortgage assistance program will reward people that are significantly behind in their mortgage payments. There will be no incentives for people that are on time, or for people interested in buying foreclosed properties. It's good to reduce the number of foreclosures happening, but it doesn't do anything to help move families into those foreclosed houses that are now sitting empty.

      Maybe you should look into health care information systems, I hear there will be a lot of jobs there, soon. You may have to learn to program with something other than Visual Studio, though, because I imagine the new Health Information Network will use a lot of open source software.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    4. Re:oh god no by cab15625 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And how is that different from being forced to pay for closed source development? At least if you are force to pay for open source development, you won't have to pay again in order to reap the benefits of the development. If the stimulus money only goes to closed source, you'll have to pay again to buy the software before you see any immediate benefit. All the costs of socialism with none of the benefits. If you really are opposed to this on such idealistic grounds, then you should be opposed to the entire concept of a stimulus package.

    5. Re:oh god no by Chabil+Ha' · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There will be no incentives for people that are on time...

      Is not honor reward enough? Doing the right thing is its own reward.

      --
      We're all hypocrites. We all have hidden parts, it's the contrast between them that make us more a hypocrite than others
    6. Re:oh god no by michaelhood · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And how is that different from being forced to pay for closed source development?

      Umm, it's not. But insofar the government hasn't mandated us taxpayers to fund closed-source development, either.

    7. Re:oh god no by Quothz · · Score: 5, Informative

      Could you please show me the job offers to work on open source? I'll give you a day to find something and then check back on my post.

      Here, now, let me Google that for you.

    8. Re:oh god no by blhack · · Score: 4, Informative

      Is not honor reward enough? Doing the right thing is its own reward.

      I can't take honor to the store and convert it into food. The power company also doesn't take honor as a form of payment.

      --
      NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
    9. Re:oh god no by vadim_t · · Score: 3, Interesting

      By "being forced to pay for closed source development" he means "being forced to pay for closed source development with your tax money", not simply buying the software in a shop.

      You're not going to get that closed software for free even if your tax money pays for it. So example situation:

      Open source: $5 of your tax money goes to say, Firefox
      Closed source: $5 of your tax money goes to say, Matlab

      The result is the same so far, except that Firefox is already available for free, so the total money spent is still $5, while you still have to buy Matlab even if your tax money contributed to it, so the total cost is $5 + $cost_of_matlab. If you don't buy it, that tax money of yours still gets spent on it.

    10. Re:oh god no by Chabil+Ha' · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can't take honor to the store and convert it into food.

      Sure you can. If I fulfill my end of an agreement, then my credit worthiness (my honor) allows me to enter into other such agreements (ie a credit card) which can be used to purchase other goods and services on credit (my honor). Therefore, it is intrinsically good for me to be on time with my payments. My continued good behavior allows me to make such 'honor' purchases.

      --
      We're all hypocrites. We all have hidden parts, it's the contrast between them that make us more a hypocrite than others
    11. Re:oh god no by UseTheSource · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Democracy is not about low taxes, or free markets, or any other economic philosophy, its about solving problems for the common good. If you don't like the way things are there are always elections.

      Ummm... Last I checked, the US was founded as a republic. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention anything about democracy.

      Of course, we are gradually sliding further and further into the mob rule of democracy, but that's not how things were intended to be.

      --
      "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer." -Adolf Hitler
      "We are one Nation, we are one People." -The One 'leader'
  2. No. by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No. Why? Because open source isn't typically a large lobbying group.

    Next.

    1. Re:No. by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agreed. That's the answer to "Will Obama give stimulus to open source?" rather than the question posed by the headline.

      As far as whether Obama should or not, I don't personally think it's the job of governments to support open source software financially. The way I see it, OSS is recession-proof. It will get developed whether there is money or not. Most OSS developers are willing to work now to earn rewards later.

    2. Re:No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course there should be government investment in OSS development, you stupid fucks.

      All that ranting! You could have just said "I don't understand the difference between an economic stimulus and an investment". It would have been much shorter.

    3. Re:No. by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nice try, but the vast majority of free-market libertarians I've met are FAR from wealthy. Usually those advocating a more liberal system are the wealthier. Compare the bigger cities vs. the countries; bigger cities such as New York and San Fran are typically very liberal and also relatively wealthy.

      The big ideological divide here is that you, a liberal, is that you're viewing people and things by function and utility, whereas the (true) libertarian believes in rights in-and-of-themselves, rights for the sake of rights. Whereas you may believe in freedom of speech because the free exchange of ideas may lead to better ideas, the libertarian believes that people should innately just be able to say what they want to say as an individual right, with little concern over whether it benefits society or not.

      The greed of corporations is not ideological, not in any traditional sense of the word. Corporations, composed of usually many shareholders that are far removed from the employees of the company and their standard of living, highlight part of what's inherently wrong with democracy in the first place. And Laissez-faire is not an inherently pro-corporation philosophy--many libertarians oppose "corporate personhood" and also the greed of big business extends into government handouts and favors, which the staunch libertarian strongly rejects in almost all, if not all, circumstances.

      You bring up the Iraq war, like the libertarians supported it, and maybe some "libertarians in name only" did, but the true adherents never supported it. The most laissez-faire guy in Congress--Ron Paul, obviously--strongly opposed the war from the get-go, one of the relatively few Republicans who did!

      Ironically, too, that you complain about people whine about "socialism" and their big-screen TVs when the libertarians typically stress saving money instead of continual spending. It is the left that believes that people should have that high standard of living, with all its modern comforts, not the "true" right (if you consider the libertarian to be the "true right"). If you think the libertarians weren't complaining about the cost of the war--in lives and in money--you clearly weren't listening. I find that far, far too common in the left, whom choose to misrepresent libertarians quite willingly, or at least ideologically aren't all that interested in the truth.

      The libertarian does not necessarily oppose "Universal Healthcare" insofar that is a voluntary decision of the individual. Not because they want to stop UH, but because they simply want to maximize the freedom and choice of every individual, even if that means the individual can end up hurting themself. The libertarian is the true democrat, as the libertarian beliefs in personal action and personal choice as opposed to the sham activities of modern democracies where some group inevitably takes from another group for the former group's benefit, whether it be poor from rich or rich from poor, able from unable or unable from able, smart from stupid or stupid from strong, or so on.

      The libertarian is about individual action whereas the modern liberal is about government action. The libertarian often wouldn't mind to see what you want enacted in society, they just want it to be a personal choice--no matter if most people would find it beneficial. The modern attempt to construct a "one-size-fits-all" society is what the libertarian ultimately rejects because the focus on the libertarian is on the rights of the individual and not what most fits for the group.

      Until you can understand and properly address the concerns of the libertarian, your arguments won't make much headway with any of them, because you're talking past them and insulting them by implying they believe or dislike things that may not necessarily be the case.

    4. Re:No. by VJ42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you would prefer a more socialized system, you're welcome to emigrate to [insert favorite socialist country here] rather than try to undermine our government with your retarded ideas.

      There are many socialist representative democracies over here in Europe (Indeed the Socialists are the second biggest grouping in the European parliament), why can't he try to reform the American government and establish a socialist platform in your country. Indeed not allowing him to (and telling him to emigrate) is inherently undemocratic. I'm all for small government myself*, but I'd never tell someone to emigrate elsewhere because they disagree with my political philosophy.


      *By this I mean that my fellow Brits think I'm a rabid libertarian because I support liberalising our gun laws and drug laws, but as I continue to support the NHS, Americans label me "Socialist" or "Communist".

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    5. Re:No. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Informative
      For someone who doesn't understand that democracy and republic are not mutually exclusive terms, you are incredibly patronising. A republic is any state which is not ruled by a hereditary monarch. A democracy is a state which is ruled by the people. They are orthogonal. Some democracies have a constitutional monarchy, where the head of state is hereditary but their power is limited and can be overruled by the will of the people. Some republics are run by oligarchies.

      The United States of America is a representative democracy, where the people select representatives that will run the country on their behalf. This is in contrast with a direct democracy, like the Swiss cantons or Greek city states, where the people meet regularly and conduct the business of government through direct voting. It is also a republic, as the President is elected rather than inheriting the title.

      This is stuff most people learn in a high-school class room, so I suggest the phrase 'people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones' applies to your comment about keeping quiet while the adults talk.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  3. Great Idea by mlwmohawk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The open source movement is exactly what should be funded. Create a grant application program for open source projects.

    I had an argument with a microsoftie a while ago, who was convinced that open source was destroying the software industry. I countered that all it was doing was creating a rich infrastructure on top of which other industry could be built.

    The open source infrastructure is a national (international) treasure that, by making infrastructure basically free, like roads and bridges, makes other projects that would have been too big and expensive to develop from scratch, almost trivial to develop.

    1. Re:Great Idea by Fumus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But how do you give money to the open source? Most probably some companies will get the money, and if they're companies, they already have some money. The problem I see is that in order to really stimulate the movement, you'd need to send each little bloke who wrote ten lines of code $5. That wouldn't help of course, because I actually believe this OSS stimulus is a dumb thing, but it would actually give money to the open source movement. Not to some "open source" companies.

      It's like with helping the poor. If you want to help, give the money to the poor. Not to some charity funds which will, or will not spend the money wisely.

  4. Not gonna happen by abigsmurf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1: You don't create jobs by adding unfair competition to struggling companies(how can companies compete with someone getting guaranteed money with no need to turn a profit?)

    2: I'm pretty sure there are international laws in place which don't look too kindly on this.

    1. Re:Not gonna happen by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You don't create jobs by adding unfair competition to struggling companies(how can companies compete with someone getting guaranteed money with no need to turn a profit?)

      Sounds like the best argument I've heard for letting GM and Chrysler fail. Hardly seems fair to Ford, Honda, VW, etc that their competitors are being rewarded for failure.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:Not gonna happen by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      and how about....

      3: if your idea is so damn good, risk your own damn money.

      Every single one of the VC driven tech booms have crashed hard because 75% of the crap is raging garbage.

      Got a good idea? Then sell your home and your cars to finance it, then when it's operational look to get more investors and generate capitol the normal way. Every single VC startup I have been a part of or seen close up are nothing more than a "buddy's clubhouse" where they waste money on stupid crap and dont really use their windfall of money for the real task at hand. If you have a personal investment into the company then you will work hard to make it succeed.

      If you got your beer idea on a napkin that you convinced some moron to give you $800,000 to start doing, you're gonna screw off and try to play "rich guy" until the money runs out.

      The LAST thing we need is to start handing out lottery money to people with "ideas".

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    3. Re:Not gonna happen by HungryHobo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      True but you could get some decent results with small buisness grants and low interest loans.
      Handing people a sack of money isn't the way to go but making those investments just a little less risky would be a good thing.

  5. Buy American by joshsnow · · Score: 5, Funny

    Dear Mr President, You really should be buying American products in order to stimulate economic recovery in the United States of America. May I take this opportunity to remond you that MICROSOFT is an AMERICAN CORPORATION! BUY AMERICAN! BUY AMERICAN! We love you, Mr President Sincerely, Steve Ballmer

  6. Good Lord No! by Aladrin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Give money to people for Open Source and you'll have a ton of shitty projects designed solely to get money from the Government.

    Most of the rest of the projects will be companies claiming free money for projects they would have paid for in-house, but they could get the government to pay for a portion of it instead. The projects won't be useful to anyone else, and especially won't be useful without the in-house project that goes with it.

    And no, GPL'ing all the government-funded software isn't the answer, either. At the very least, the companies will just find a way around that license.

    --
    "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
  7. Stimulus? by Dunbal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All economists agree that government spending is important during times of contraction, as it helps to make up the shortfall in the economy from the side of the consumer, and helps "stimulate" the economy. Another advantage of government spending is that it's usually an investment in infrastructure that will last many decades and provide a platform for future growth in the economy.

          However, the United States has not taken advantage of the good times. They have failed to reduce their debt during those times- and in fact have increased it to record proportions. Not only that, but they have not even managed to maintain their infrastructure. This is at both the state and federal level. So we went INTO this mess already up to our ears in debt.

          People fail to understand that every dollar the US prints reduces the real value of all the other dollars that currently exist by a tiny fraction - because after all, fiat currency is only hard to forge pieces of paper. Once the shared belief in the value of that worthless piece of paper is destroyed, it will quickly return to its intrinsic value - ZERO. Ask Mugabe.

          Printing trillions of dollars at a time when you are already close to 60 trillion (when you count social security) in debt, and the WORLD GDP is only 150 trillion, will destroy the currency in short order. The US can't afford to bail ANYONE out - they are too deep in debt already. Yet the political temptation to appear to "do something" is too strong - despite the fact that it's already too late. The "stimulus" is currently designed to put almost $300BN back into the pockets of the consumer in the form of tax relief - consumers that are already deep in debt. That 300BN will disappear in a couple months, as people pay their overdue credit cards, mortgage payments and utility bills, or buy houses thinking that this is "the bottom" (HAH! The "bottom" will be in 2015 or so, because all bubbles are V shaped and this one started in 1998) - and THEN WHAT?

          Well, $126BN will be spent on infrastructure - great, let's do what FDR did and build, or re-build, interstates. Surely a plan that worked 70 years ago is still valid today, right? So after giving jobs to all the immigrants again (because who ELSE works with a shovel nowadays?), what's left? A few hundred billion to be spent giving cheap drugs to the elderly and other programs to win political points. Oh and NASA is going to get $2BN, so that should cover the fuel for 2 shuttle launches...

          Frankly by the time enough "infrastructure" is built that the government begins to require turbines from GE for their wind farms, or technological equipment for the new "smart grid", we will all be out of a job already, burning money by the bucketful in winter in order to keep warm.

          Oh and don't forget Chrysler and GM's "recovery plan" is to apparently ask the government for more money every quarter.

          America still hasn't woken up and realized that this is not just another "recession". This is the breaking of the previous consumer model, and a complete dissolution of the "American way of life". We can't ALL have SUV's, we can't ALL have big screen TV's, and we can't ALL live in dream houses. Especially not when it's bought on "credit". Well America, the credit has run out.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    1. Re:Stimulus? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 3, Informative

      All economists agree that government spending is important during times of contraction, as it helps to make up the shortfall in the economy from the side of the consumer, and helps "stimulate" the economy. Another advantage of government spending is that it's usually an investment in infrastructure that will last many decades and provide a platform for future growth in the economy.

      This is patently false. Not all economists agree that government spending is a "good thing" in times of contraction. Here is an economist who argues that it is a bad thing: http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5408 He is by the way a staunch conservative/libertarian who tends to support Republican politics (although I have seen him write columns condemning "spend, spend" Republican policies).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  8. Short answer: NO. by JoeMerchant · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Obama is an elected official, he is obliged to serve the will of the people of the United States.

    To be isolationist about it: this is a stimulus from US taxpayers for the recovery of the US economy. Open Source knows no borders, stimulus into open source will benefit the whole world, not just the US.

    To be union-minded about it: open source is a disruptive technology, it destroys established highly profitable service industries and replaces their products with free alternatives. It reduces the scale of the software economy from one that includes compensation for development, sales, marketing, investor returns and support to one that only generates significant revenue in support. In short, open source is a short-term net destroyer of jobs.

    To be PAC minded about it: open source doesn't have the deep pockets of the established software industry. There are 25 closed source lobbyists in Washington D.C. for every open source one.

    In summary: the American voter doesn't think beyond next week's paycheck, whether or not they can afford the next larger flat-screen TV, or to keep that 4500 sq. ft. McMansion they bought 4 years ago when the balloon payment comes due. Obama is up for re-election, and he has a mandate to make Joe the Plumber happy before November 2012. Investments in Open Source have long-term global returns that are difficult to demonstrate during a 30 second sound-bite on the nightly news. Regardless of how massive that ultimate ROI might be, it's not something that will put Barack back in office in 2012.

    Sorry OSS, you are noble, just and worthy, but you've just got no chance of making it on American Idol.

  9. It would make more sense by hey! · · Score: 3, Insightful

    to think of ways to set aside funds for small businesses; ways that would encourage them to adopt and develop open source software.

    We might take the Depression era grants that went to artists to decorate many public spaces as a model. Modest grants to people who work in information technology to create freely redistributable solutions public informatics problems would have several important advantages.

    (1) Such a plan maintains a domestic informatics workforce in the face of increased pressure to move jobs to low wage countries. Maintaining and increasing the skills of this workforce will make it attractive for industry to turn to it when the economy improves.

    (2) Mandating interoperability with open, non-proprietary standards improves the competitiveness of the domestic IT industry, where businesses are too often driven by premature efforts to create some kind of market niche where they ar protected from competition.

    (3) The grants should require that the small businesses have a plant to use the work to increase their capabilities, and particularly favor the development of new kinds of technology or application for technology.

    (4) Focusing the stimulus money on small businesses allows technology bets to be spread across a greater variety of approaches; it is less likely to introduce what is in effect central planning into engineering decisions. It is also unlikely to strengthen the hand of one big player against all the others because of its skill at obtaining Federal money.

    (5) Low margins and ready sweat equity will encourage greater adoption of free software.

    (6) There is already a Federal mechanism for doing this; the Small Business Innovative Research grant program.

    SBIR currently pays for mostly a lot of boondoggles, although even boondoggles if they are kept close enough to home can be stimulative. However, with the right requirements placed on grant applications the value created can be maximized -- important if we want to avoid the inflationary effects of stimulation. Favoring free software would mean that nearly any work done in an area results in public value. Even bad or poorly implemented systems contain lessons that can be studied and built upon; when the system is proprietary, those lessons die.

    Often the problem with SBIR is that work doesn't really result in something that can be commercialized. Even if the system is good, often people can't market it. So perhaps the most politically effective way to do this is to require that if the developer does not make a commercial success of the software within a fixed period, that it be released under a free license.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.