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Sony To Unveil New Fuel-Cell Prototype

Posted by samzenpus on from the new-power dept.

Nakeot writes "On Friday, Sony plans to unveil their newest portable fuel-cell technology, aimed at a variety of mobile applications. From the article: "The system contains both a methanol fuel cell and a Li-on battery" and can "intelligently switch between power from the battery, fuel, or even both under high-draw circumstances." Sony intends to show off two models claimed to power your cell for a week or a month, respectively, as well as the latest developments with their sugar-batteries that can now run purely off your favorite cola beverage. This model builds on Sony's 2008 model, their first commercially-demonstratable prototype, and could make waves with Sony's OLED devices, but will Sony be able to avoid another battery recall?"

116 comments

  1. Power my cell for a week by Aldur42 · · Score: 5, Funny

    My cell already lasts a week, but I think that's because no one calls

    --
    A complicated error is indistinguishable from a feature.
    1. Re:Power my cell for a week by Jangchub · · Score: 2, Funny

      Mine lasts at least a week; I too lack any human friends... Want to get together over beers?

    2. Re:Power my cell for a week by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wowie, yours too! Let's get together over beers and then shove greased-up yoda dolls up our asses while watching 300!

      Didn't we just do that last week?

    3. Re:Power my cell for a week by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 2

      with their sugar-batteries that can now run purely off your favorite cola beverage

      And you should be able to spill that beer on your cellphone, and it will run even longer!

      Although maybe a rum and coke has more sugar in it than beer......

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    4. Re:Power my cell for a week by nmg196 · · Score: 1

      My phone ALREADY lasts way longer than a week. Does that mean this battery is no better than existing ones? Or that someone has messed up the summary? I don't get what the advantage is of a battery that can only power a phone for a week.

    5. Re:Power my cell for a week by jebrew · · Score: 1

      Sean? I didn't know you were on Slashdot!!

    6. Re:Power my cell for a week by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Mine lasts a week as well, but I go through at least 300 minutes every two weeks, especially when the girls are around.

      I don't go through nearly as much cell time as toilet paper when they're around, though. My cell battery is far longer lasting than the TP.

      --
      Free Martian Whores!
    7. Re:Power my cell for a week by maxume · · Score: 1

      You can dump some methanol in and keep on going. A few ounces of liquid may be a lot easier to carry around than extra batteries, or the electric grid, depending on what you happen to be doing.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  2. thats great but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    will it asplode?

  3. These are still vapor by sirwired · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We have been hearing about fuel cells "just around the corner" for a freakin' decade now. I think you can put them in the same corner as Duke Nukem Forever and that Holographic Storage thing that keeps popping up on Slashdot.

    SirWired

    1. Re:These are still vapor by Eziril · · Score: 3, Informative

      There are many corners to pass for a technology to become mainstream. Fuel Cells have already passed several of these. They've gone from an idea on a blackboard, to a gadget in a lab, and now multiple large companies have put out prototype devices. The Honda fcx clarity car being and portable batteries being just two. Fuel cell buses are already prowling the streets of several cities. Probably the biggest advances yet to come are cost, large scale production, and wide scale distribution of fuel for the fuel cells. The fact is fuel cells are here now and already working hard, they just need more improvements to be mainstream.

      --
      Aw, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14 percent of all people know that. --Homer Simpson
    2. Re:These are still vapor by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1, Funny

      and that Holographic Storage thing that keeps popping up on Slashdot.

      Yeah but it looks so real... like I can just reach out and touch the drive.

      I also like the psychedelic colors.

      Seems promising to me!

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    3. Re:These are still vapor by criminy · · Score: 1

      I think you can put them in the same corner as Duke Nukem Forever and that Holographic Storage thing that keeps popping up on Slashdot.

      Likewise:

      Flying Cars
      3D TV
      Fusion Power

    4. Re:These are still vapor by EdIII · · Score: 4, Funny

      I think you can put them in the same corner as Duke Nukem Forever

      NOTHING can be in the same corner as Duke Nukem Forever. In Vegas the odds would be better of Elvis riding towards Caesars Palace on a Unicorn, on a rainbow, with a horde of screaming Leprechauns chasing after him pissed because he stole the pot of gold. Ohhh, and Elvis would have TITS. Big Ones.

    5. Re:These are still vapor by Athens101 · · Score: 1

      obligatory
      http://anotherrandomday.com/?id=535

    6. Re:These are still vapor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didn't that part already come true?

      Ohhh, and Elvis would have TITS. Big Ones.

    7. Re:These are still vapor by elashish14 · · Score: 1

      Agree with parent. Take OLEDs for example. They still have a lot of issues to overcome, but they're slowly finding their way into the industry, namely on PMPs, some cell phones, other examples.

      --
      I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
    8. Re:These are still vapor by soren202 · · Score: 1

      We have been hearing about fuel cells "just around the corner" for a freakin' decade now. I think you can put them in the same corner as Duke Nukem Forever and that Holographic Storage thing that keeps popping up on Slashdot.

      SirWired

      Nah. At least there's a trailer for Duke Nukem Forever.

      At this point, I'm putting more faith in that game than fuel cells.

    9. Re:These are still vapor by hack++slash · · Score: 1

      The major difference between DNF & fuel cells is that the cells exist and are being used, even if in prototype form:

      I saw the green bike pictured here at an electric bike event in Wales last year but more people were interested in the normal battery bikes because they could buy one there and then if they wanted (and some did).

      I would love an electric bike that could do up to 100km on a single charge/refill but the (un)availability & price right doen't make it feasable. Hopefully when I've run my current electric bike into the ground I'll be able to get a full-cell powered bike. So far I've had my ebike 2 years, ridden daily & it's still going strong after the usual bike parts needed servicing/replacing, controller/motor are still going strong but I've pretty much given the year old lithium battery a hammering & it'll need to be replaced before the year is out.

      --
      To do something right, you often have to roll up your sleeves and get busy.
    10. Re:These are still vapor by chaoticgeek · · Score: 1

      If you turn enough corners you will eventually be facing the same way you started in the first place...

      --
      hello
    11. Re:These are still vapor by kwantar · · Score: 1

      You can scratch one off of that list!

      http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/25/1929244

      --
      If it were anything else...
    12. Re:These are still vapor by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Concerning wide scale distribution of fuel for the fuel cells...

      What I really want to see is a unit that can be used as a big battery for solar installations. Let me produce hydrogen all day in the sun and then run the other way around at night.

    13. Re:These are still vapor by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is a lot of things fall at one of the hurdles to becoming ubiquitous.

      E.g. Field Emissions Displays looked promising a few years back and I thought they'd end up being used in pretty much all TVs. Oddly enough LCDs which back then were crap and expensive have ended up being good and cheap and have replaced CRTs almost completely.

      I thought the same thing would happen with Plasma v LCD, but it seems to have peaked. It's still quite possible OLEDs will stay in the niche market of small screens for PMPs and never manage to compete with LCDs. Like ePaper

      Similarly with batteries if you read the technical media from a few years back there were loads of promising technologies that never made it.

      Basically it seems like in each area dozens of technologies get to the demo stage, less make it to the niche product stage (e.g. ePaper ebook readers or OLED screens on PMPs) and maybe one or two become ubiquitous until they are dethroned (CRTs and then LCD/Plasma)

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    14. Re:These are still vapor by PiSkyHi · · Score: 1

      Odds reduced slightly since Elvis did have tits for a while there.

    15. Re:These are still vapor by EdIII · · Score: 1

      Fine. I meant big huge boobies like Dolly Parton or Jessica Love Hewitt. Not man-titties. Something with cleavage.

      I have yet to see a man with man-titties so big he could make cleavage, and I fervently hope I never do.

    16. Re:These are still vapor by TapeCutter · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Top Grear crew are not exactly a bunch of tree-huggers, yet even they have repeatedly called it the most important car in 100yrs.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    17. Re:These are still vapor by mattr · · Score: 1

      Hi,
      You are right, and the Clarity is really oool.
      I saw presentations by the FC divisions of Honda, Nissan and Toyota today at the FC Expo. 2015 is the date they are aiming at to realize a serious Hydrogen market (though this will be a bit tough). Some important issues are starting in subzero weather (the water freezes... but they have gotten pretty far on this), anode deterioration when frequent start/stop develops an eletrolytiC gradient, and other things. They want to bring the expense down by 90% too. These guys are heroes and as you say already being used in buses and autos - there are 70 hydrogen stations in the U.S. so they are being used in southern California. I saw a photo of a solar powered hydrogen station. It is definitely not vaporware anymore, more like alpha-beta stage.

    18. Re:These are still vapor by internettoughguy · · Score: 1

      ...i have these things called legs, and i use them to push these things called pedals... but in all seriousness, thighs of steel.

    19. Re:These are still vapor by pmarini · · Score: 1

      3D TV is here already.

      I had replied to another post some days ago and was criticised about it not being "ready" for cinema viewing (people looking from multiple angles), but I was referring to personal viewing at home.
      no glasses, no fuss, it just works...

      flying cars are also already here (and am not talking about the one with the parachute-thing on it...), but they are simply too difficult to "drive", when your average joe-six-speeds can barely pass a test for 2D roads :-)

      not qualified to speak about fusion power (why do you use capital letters anyway?) but I believe that quite some progress is being done - watched a short documentary the other day showing a reactor to create a stable kernel of plasma, somewhere in southern Asia, in collaboration with other countries...

      --
      Can I put a spell on those who can't spell?
      Your wheels are loose and they're losing their grip, good you're there.
    20. Re:These are still vapor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just means an emissions recall next time.

    21. Re:These are still vapor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      "Hail to the king, baby!"

    22. Re:These are still vapor by neomunk · · Score: 1

      IIRC, that's done pretty well with compressed air in sealed caves, in pumping water uphill to be used for hydroelectric at night, or using flywheels.

      Large fixed-installation power storage is very doable right now, but good portable power is still desperately needed.

    23. Re:These are still vapor by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      Fuel cell buses are already prowling the streets of several cities.

      Buses, prowling. Interesting juxtaposition. I imagine an animated bus like a giant Herbie sneaking along the street, trying in vain to hide behind street signs.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    24. Re:These are still vapor by Muad'Dave · · Score: 2, Insightful
      with a horde of screaming Leprechauns chasing after him pissed because he stole the pot of gold.

      He ate all their bacon and peanut butter and banana sandwiches, too.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    25. Re:These are still vapor by wrook · · Score: 1

      Damn it! You've given away the whole plot of the game!

      Now they're going to have to start all over again. I hope you're happy!

    26. Re:These are still vapor by c00rdb · · Score: 1

      That happens all the time in vegas already.

    27. Re:These are still vapor by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Ok, let me add... In a small refrigerator sized unit.

    28. Re:These are still vapor by neomunk · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's the good stuff.

  4. Strange... by Drumforyourlife · · Score: 1

    I was expecting something like this to be bulky, but the article's picture shows that the batteries are fairly small. This could be really good for people who travel. I charge my phone while I'm sleeping, but I always have to take the charger along for long trips, and then find a plug.

  5. Big Bang Theory by owlnation · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Sony intends to show off two models claimed to power your cell for a week or a month"

    ... or until it explodes in a ball of fire, like their previous batteries.

    1. Re:Big Bang Theory by Hashi+Lebwohl · · Score: 1

      You beat me to it......

      --
      I'm in to sadism, bestiality and necrophilia. Am I flogging a dead horse?
    2. Re:Big Bang Theory by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      And, depending on the container used for the methanol and the amount of vapor contained within it, it may be subject to export regulations as munitions!

      Sony-powered cellphones will become a must-have component for every terrorist-built IED!

      --
      My blog
    3. Re:Big Bang Theory by EdIII · · Score: 1

      And, depending on the container used for the methanol and the amount of vapor contained within it, it may be subject to export regulations as munitions!

      That's not funny. Do you really think we could even get these things onto planes?

    4. Re:Big Bang Theory by noidentity · · Score: 1

      The system contains both a methanol fuel cell and a Li-on battery. [...] Sony intends to show off two models claimed to power your cell for a week or a month

      ... or until it explodes in a ball of fire, like their previous batteries.

      So that's why it includes a conventional Li-Ion battery inside as well.

  6. So it can both explode and catch fire.. by shankarunni · · Score: 2, Funny

    From the article:

    > The system contains both a methanol fuel cell and a Li-on battery

    1. Re:So it can both explode and catch fire.. by Narnie · · Score: 1

      Sounds like an awesome start to a toilet bomb prank.

      --
      greed@All_Evils:~#
  7. The downside... by KingSkippus · · Score: 2, Funny

    The only downside is that since it's from Sony, it installs a rootkit on your cellphone that keeps you from copying pictures you take on it to your computer...

    (Yes, I'm still holding that grudge. Such is the PR price a company pays for being so mind-numbingly stupid.)

    1. Re:The downside... by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Informative

      The only downside is that since it's from Sony, it installs a rootkit on your cellphone that keeps you from copying pictures you take on it to your computer...

      I believe that Verizon Wireless already has prior art on that one ;)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:The downside... by EdIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

      (Yes, I'm still holding that grudge. Such is the PR price a company pays for being so mind-numbingly stupid.)

      Your not the only one holding that grudge. Just like you I bring it up every single time I can. I'll release my grudge when some Sony executives go to prison.

      I also object to the word stupidity. I honestly believe it was downright maliciousness and their actions were not without intelligence. They knew exactly what they were doing and thought they had the rights to do it. That was not stupid. It was evil. Calling them stupid makes them out to be fools and somehow deserving of our compassion for just being simple idiots.

      In EVERY other single case of a rootkit being installed on consumers systems without their knowledge, there WOULD be a criminal court case. Sony does it.... nothing.

    3. Re:The downside... by Datamonstar · · Score: 1

      See them in jail? For what? For making the decision to include a feature they licensed from some scummy DRM developer and they had no clue how it worked? Those execs had no clue what they were doing other than that it would potentially help stop people from pirating their music. Execs rarely have a clue about anything technical and they are the ones who make the decisions. Anyone else down the chain either didn't know either or wasn't big enough on the radar to matter. Not saying Sony's not completely innocent, but they aren't the evil corporate fat cats people make them out to be due to that "rootkit" matter. The real evil are the individuals who made the technology and sold it to Sony. They knew what it was going to do.

      --
      The eternal struggle of good vs. evil begins within one's self.
    4. Re:The downside... by EdIII · · Score: 1

      I still don't buy it. I think the execs at Sony did have knowledge of what they were doing. In any case, I hope we can at least agree that *somebody* needed to go to prison here. If you are right and Sony execs were just ignorant of what their underlings brought them as an option, then fine. I want the person that knew what a rootkit was, what it did to the systems, to go to prison.

    5. Re:The downside... by theheadlessrabbit · · Score: 1

      The real evil are the individuals who made the technology and sold it to Sony. They knew what it was going to do.

      or maybe the people who sold the technology to Sony knew exactly what they were doing, and specifically designed it that way because they wanted a worldwide backlash against DRM? ...see, I can make unsubstantiated claims too.

      --
      -I only code in BASIC.-
    6. Re:The downside... by FlyingBishop · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A rootkit is the very definition of "gaining access to a computer system without authorization."

      They quite literally hacked into their customers' computers without their knowledge. How is that not criminal?

    7. Re:The downside... by KingSkippus · · Score: 1

      I also object to the word stupidity. I honestly believe it was downright maliciousness and their actions were not without intelligence. They knew exactly what they were doing and thought they had the rights to do it.

      You're absolutely right, I stand corrected.

    8. Re:The downside... by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      You do realize that it was not just sony. In fact there are some companies still doing this. The German release of Mr and Mrs Smith come to mind as one such case. Also unlike in the sony version, the company makes you enter a n digit code to remove it, and only permit you to remove it *once*.

      The enemy here is not Sony. Its corporations in general, but in particular the ones that are scared to death by the internet and our ability to copy bits.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    9. Re:The downside... by Linker3000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I am just waiting to see what kind of 'nearly-the-same-as-all-other-power-connectors-but-slightly different-so-you-need-to-buy-Sony-originals-and-nothing-else-will-fit' they come up with this time.

      --
      AT&ROFLMAO
    10. Re:The downside... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They quite literally hacked into their customers' computers without their knowledge.

      Literally? Did they use an axe?

    11. Re:The downside... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I'm holding that grudge, too. The first thought that came in my mind whan I saw this story was "too bad it's Sony". I'll settle for a non-Sony battery that needs charging every day over a Sony battery that only needs charging once a year, because I refuse to let Sony have another penny of my money.

      In EVERY other single case of a rootkit being installed on consumers systems without their knowledge, there WOULD be a criminal court case. Sony does it.... nothing.

      If I did to one of Sony's computers what they did to mine I'd be in prison.

      --
      Free Martian Whores!
    12. Re:The downside... by SenseiLeNoir · · Score: 1

      Its funny you should mention it, since most new SonyEricsson (arguably more Ericsson, than Sony), are known in the field for being pretty good in terms of media transfers.

      Back in the day (pre-SonyEricsson) they used standard Defined file formats (jpg, gif, wbmp, amf, midi, ims) for their media formats and allowed transfer two and from via simple IrDA, or OBEX on Bluetooth devices. Even their "themes" were basically a defined colletions of gifs/png with a XML descriptor, in a tar file renamed to .thm.

      This compares strongly with Nokia which used proprietary formats, and required proprietary methods to transfer the media (Logomanager, etc).

      They were the first to implement Bluetooth FTP on any phone, support for SVG (tiny profile).

      As such they were known as pretty open.

      I am aware that some con job operators (Verizon, Vodofaone) crippled the phones, but the phones in their base model didnt have restrictions.

      --
      Have a nice day!
  8. Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by Zymergy · · Score: 4, Informative

    Not sure this is the best alcohol fuel to oxidize (burn) in a fuel cell use? http://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/14280.htm
    Ethanol is a less toxic and less reactive to metals (and much safer) alcohol to use. https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/89308.htm
    From another methanol MSDS: "Releases flammable vapors below ambient temperatures. When mixed with air and exposed to ignition source, vapors can burn in open or explode if confined. Mixtures with water and as little as 21% (by vol.) methanol are still flammable (flash point less than 104F). Under some circumstances, may corrode certain metals, including aluminum and zinc and generate hydrogen gas. A methanol fire may not be visible to the naked eye."

    Aren't many laptops made of aluminum and zinc and magnesium? What happens when the lithium battery decides to cook off? Hummmm?
    (In any case, I am sure the TSA will let us all board planes with our alcohol-fueled laptops.)

    1. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      It's possible that they don't use ethanol for the same reason the 85% is as high as ethanol for cars is allowed to go. That being there are people stupid enough to try to drink it and you might actually have to limit it's sale as alcohol unless you could show that it is nearly impossible to access it.

    2. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you please cite that claim? Unless I see some evidence, I really doubt that's true.

    3. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by billsnow · · Score: 2, Informative

      you can make ethanol non-drinkable (and toxic) by adding a bit of methanol. It's called denatured alcohol. 100 percent ethanol is used as a fuel in many applications. I've used both methanol and ethanol for fueling my backpacking stoves. Ethanol has a slightly higher energy density (more joules per gram); methanol is slightly more volatile (ignites more easily). Ethanol has the edge for camping in the backcountry because I can mix it with lemonade packets for a cocktail. Methanol would make me vomit (or die if I took enough).

      If I had to guess why methanol is used instead of ethanol: it's cheaper. It's also possible that the volatility of methanol (compared to ethanol) makes it a more suitable fuel for the technology (fuel cell).

      Why suggest we use a fuel because it's non-toxic? Are there confused people at the gas pump trying to drink from the hose?

    4. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by Gibbs-Duhem · · Score: 5, Informative

      (I study this for a living.)

      Methanol is better because there aren't any carbon-carbon bonds to cleave. This makes it easier to find catalysts that will functionally convert it into CO2 and H+ ions. Smaller molecules are just generally simpler to work with.

      In the end, methanol based fuel cells exist. Ethanol based fuel cells don't. I'm working on it, but it'll be a while =)

      As far as safety, methanol is mostly dangerous because if it is ingested or inhaled, it will be converted into formaldehyde in the body and cause blindness. Methanol is not particularly more corrosive than ethanol/water, and while it has a lower vapor pressure than ethanol, the quantity of methanol present in a battery form factor is likely to be far too small to produce a serious hazard.

    5. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by Gibbs-Duhem · · Score: 2, Informative

      Um, they limit it to 85% because if it's higher than that, most gasoline internal combustion engines will not be able to ignite it. In many cars, it's limited to 10% because the O-rings will degrade in the presence of ethanol.

      Further, getting ethanol higher than 90% is extremely expensive and typically requires adding toxic chemicals such as benzene. ...

    6. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by Gibbs-Duhem · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ethanol always has methanol in it. In the presence of ethanol, methanol is not toxic because the ethanol prevents it from being converted into formaldehyde. The treatment for methanol poisoning is an ethanol drip.

      Methanol is used because ethanol fuel cells don't exist technologically yet. Methanol is a much simpler molecule.

      Methanol is more toxic than gasoline in the sense that methanol has a very low vapor pressure and so if there were a spill in an enclosed area, you would breathe in a good amount of it, which could cause blindness.

    7. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by Gibbs-Duhem · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sorry, apparently my first paragraph is based on an urban legend, not facts. Ethanol does usually have a very tiny amount of methanol in it, and ethanol will compete for the alcohol dehydrogenase that will make the methanol toxic, but ethanol is not sufficient treatment by itself to make the methanol safe.

      I think. I'm not totally sure I trust wikipedia more than the postdocs in my lab. Meh. Better safe than sorry though.

    8. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by elashish14 · · Score: 1

      Great.

      You can be sure that if they could make an ethanol-based fuel cell, they would. There's a good reason their engineers choose the materials that they use. It's easy to say that there are better ones. Getting them to work, not so much.

      --
      I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
    9. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Further, getting ethanol higher than 90% is extremely expensive and typically requires adding toxic chemicals such as benzene. .

      Huh? I can buy a 750ml bottle of Everclear for $20. It's 95% ethanol and given that it's intended for consumption I'm guessing they didn't add any toxic chemicals to it.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    10. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by mikeee · · Score: 1

      $27/L is pretty expensive for a fuel with about the same energy content as gasoline.

    11. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by rcw-home · · Score: 1

      The grandparent probably meant 95% (technically, 95.6%), not 90%. Ethanol is hygroscopic (it absorbs water). If you have 100% ethanol, and leave it exposed to air (or attempt repeated distillations), it'll become 95.6% ethanol + 4.4% water (Everclear). Additives can prevent this - the grandparent mentioned benzene and Wikipedia mentions glycerol. If you're drinking it, you probably want to stick with that 4.4% water. Maybe a little more than that, actually.

    12. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by Gibbs-Duhem · · Score: 1

      Thank you rcw-home, yes, I meant 190 proof, not 90%.

    13. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2, Informative

      The important part about the 96% limit is that it is the maximum obtainable by distillation. If you achieve >96% by use of chemicals it is easy to maintain it at that level by putting it in a sealed bottle which prevents it absorbing water vapour from the air.

    14. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by TheLink · · Score: 1

      "Ethanol based fuel cells don't. I'm working on it, but it'll be a while "

      How do you guys work on such stuff?

      Is it based on "hunches" that certain materials might work in some scenarios, and then you go through the combinations?

      While you're at it, how about a fuelcell that runs on hydrocarbons? After all, an efficient way to store hydrogen is around carbon chains :).

      --
    15. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by internettoughguy · · Score: 1

      yes the problem with ethanol fuel, is that the government loses a revenue source. there is nothing stupid about drinking ethanol, in fact almost everyone does it. they really don't care about peoples health because, down and out people will still drink their methanol "denatured" poisoned brew.

    16. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by squoozer · · Score: 1

      I used to work on SOFC (Solid Oxide Fuel Cells) which, unlike methanol and hydrogen fuel cells, operate at high temperature - at least several hundred degrees. On of the benefits of working at high temperatures was a much wide choice of fuel supplies and better ion mobility. In theory SOFCs should be able to run of virtually any hydrocarbon that can be got into the vapour phase at the given operating temperature, in reality I think we would probably be limited to simpler molecules though. Another benefit of SOFC is that it generates quite a bit of heat that can be used for CHP. The draw backs are that they are generally fairly large and they have poor cycling - you have to leave it running - there are plenty of possible installations though such as remote villages, disaster sites, military bases, even 24 hours buses is an option.

      As for how you chose materials that's tricky. Generally what happens is someone discovers that a material shows a certain property without really knowing why. A number of chemists will then take an educated guess about what factor is causing the desirable property and make compounds that attempt to enhance said property. Once there is a family of compounds showing the same property it is usually possible to determine what feature(s) are most beneficial and optimize for them although this optimization can take a very long time.

      A perfect example of this iterative process is the discovery and development of high temperature super conductors. Someone discovered one and then literally millions of similar compounds were made which slowly increased the super conducting temperature. It wasn't until quite a while after people had all but given up making compounds that the mechanism for high temperature super conducting was determined (one of the groups of SOFC compounds I was looking at were also super conductors).

      --
      I used to have a better sig but it broke.
    17. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Why do they have to be large though?

      Would aerogel insulation help maintain the temperatures enough, so that the restart times can be significantly shortened?

      --
    18. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by neomunk · · Score: 1

      If the ethanol they sold at the pump was 100% pure, you could call it moonshine and be completely accurate. GP is absolutely right. You can do the googling for yourself.

      Adding the methanol removes the need for a gas station to purchase a liquor license.

    19. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by Gibbs-Duhem · · Score: 1

      Basically, you're exactly right. You read through the literature to see if anyone else has found something that "sort of" works, try to guess why it works at all, and then try to come up with ways to make it more than "sort of" work.

      Most of the time, my thought process goes something like this:

      1. It sure would be nice if we could use ethanol in a fuel cell.
      2. Hey, that's great, Dr. Booringhouse found a catalyst that let him use ethanol in a fuel cell, but it's not very efficient.
      3. Hmm, it's supported on cerium oxide. I can make cerium oxide *way* better than anyone else. Maybe it'll work better if I try it with my method of making cerium oxide.
      4. 1 year goes by.
      5. Well, the difference is noticeable, but only barely. But hey, Dr. Suresh found that making nanowires instead of using nanoparticles improved performance in methanol conversion. Maybe if I use nanowires of this other material, it will also improve performance in ethanol conversion.
      6. etc.

      Actually, this is surprisingly close to what I do, although names have been made up to protect the innocent. And that is why it takes forever =) No one really seems to know why catalyst behave the way they do, except in extremely isolated cases, so there's surprisingly little predictive ability.

    20. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by squoozer · · Score: 1

      SOFC's currently run at about 900 to 1000 deg C which is pretty hostile to the equipment (I was working on lowering the temperature to around 700 deg C). When building a SOFC most of the cost is in building a system that can handle these temperatures not the materials they are made from - although they aren't cheap.

      In other words it doesn't cost twice as much to build a system twice as large (within reason). When you build a system you want to get as much bang for your buck as you can so you build it big. The ceramic tubes that form the heart of the system are pretty much as easy to make 1m long as they are 1cm long but the 1m long tubes give 100* the output hence another driver to increase size.

      As for power cycling the problem here is not how long it takes to heat or cool the system it's the thermal stresses in the materials. Being heated from 20 deg C to 1000 deg C and back will cause the ceramics to fail in a few cycles even if the heating and cooling is done slowly. Slower is better but it's no solution. Try leaving a china plate in the oven for a couple of weeks an you will see the glaze crack and that is probably only cycling up to 200 deg C max.

      As an aside... The furnace we made used to make many of the ceramics we tested used ceramic heating elements (tungsten carbide) which were rated at just 5 power cycles. The lowest temperature we could take the oven to was 950 deg C. Putting something into that oven for the first time is not something you forget quickly.

      --
      I used to have a better sig but it broke.
    21. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by JaBob · · Score: 1

      Hey, someone who might be able to answer this... My question is how do you think the waste heat from the fuel cell reaction will affect the life and performance of the Li-poly battery? I'm not all that up on battery tech, but I was under the strong impression that heat is always bad for batteries, i.e. heat causes material degradation, reduces battery functionality over time, messes with chemical kenetics, and increases electron leakage due to the higher amount of energy around. Isn't that why there are limitations to recharge rates on batteries for laptops, etc? I've read that fuel cells operate ideally within a fairly narrow temperature range and while I suppose that the evaporation of the fuel within the tank attached to the side of the thing would help to act to remove some heat from the system, I can't imagine that it would be all that much. Also, if it does cause it to run at reduced temperatures, wouldn't condensation of product cause problems?

    22. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're drinking it, you probably want to stick with that 4.4% water.

      If you're going to drink it you'd better add more water than the 4.4% it comes with.

    23. Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Yes but if the insulation is good enough, perhaps the temperature will not drop that much between restarts.

      Aerogels can provide good insulation and they should be able to tolerate 1000C (melting point = 1200C).

      Trouble is the heat will probably leak out via the rest of the stuff in the system (unless there's some clever way to stop that).

      --
  9. LiIO + fuel cell by v1 · · Score: 1

    so this could potentially be a battery that recharges itself? That's got a really high Geek Factor (TM)

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
  10. A Cell prototype? :) by RCL · · Score: 1

    A Cell prototype? :) Old news, they already released it.

    ;-)

    --
    Coding etudes
  11. Great, another SONY product by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am still laughing about this Sony product

    (warning, this video has colorful language, you may want to use headphones.)

  12. Can't fly with it by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 2, Informative

    Methanol makes a fine carrier for hydrogen. Too bad it's also used in lighter fluid, as in charcoal grill lighter fluid. In the picture, you can see the little tank in the cell that contains the methanol. It's pretty. Very stylish. And guaranteed to make Homeland Security put you in a small room for several hours.

    Ok, so you never take it on an airplane. I know! Let's take it to school! 'cause kids listen to MP3s a whole lot on the school bus and wandering around between classes and during class (even though they're not supposed to). "Student expelled for bringing flammable materials^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H a BOMB to school" - headline coming to a slashdot near you. "'It's just my MP3 player!' says student, now permanently on a Homeland Security watchlist."

    Ok, so you can never take it to school. I know! Let's use it at home! 'cause surely we can listen to our MP3s in the safety of our own bedrooms. "Rash of house fires sweeps nation" - headline coming to a slashdot near you. "Fire marshals report MP3 players dropped and broken when stepped on is soaking carpets in alcohol and igniting by their own shattered electronics."

    Yes, hydrogen is a slippery element. Yes, it's hard to contain it. Yes, it'd be nice if portable electronics had better batteries. No, I don't think a methanol fuel cell is going to solve the problem...

    1. Re:Can't fly with it by Bored+Grammar+Nazi · · Score: 0

      I can't agree more. Cars will never catch on because they'll be running around so much faster than our trusty horse carriages. You know, cars are filled with fuel, and they'll be crashing against each other and there will be explosions everywhere. No, I don't think cars will ever become popular.

    2. Re:Can't fly with it by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 2, Informative

      And yet we can take Li based batteries onto planes that have a history of starting fires.

      Once enough people want it, especially business people who want to use their laptops on longer flights. Then the airlines push back, and usually get their way. At the end of the day, you can't cost the airlines too much money up front.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    3. Re:Can't fly with it by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      Your car analogy fails. Yes, they do run around crashing into each other causing explosions everywhere. 40,000 automotive fatalities in the US every single year. So sure, we can use methanol fuel cells in our MP3 players. Just as long as you promise not to say one goddamn word when the body count starts rising. Oh, and guarantee that soccer moms won't say one goddamn word either. You want to use dangerous technology, you accept the consequences. But guess what. The USA isn't so good at accepting consequences anymore. People prefer free rides. People prefer safety, even at the cost of freedom. Hence, the existence of the Department of Homeland Security. Hence, my somewhat sarcastic remarks. (Evidently you missed the sarcasm, too.)

  13. OLD/Dupe...The Onion already had this story by CySurflex · · Score: 5, Funny

    The onion already had this story several weeks ago:

    Sony Releases New Stupid Piece of Shit That Doesn't Fucking Work
    http://www.theonion.com/content/video/sony_releases_new_stupid_piece_of

    1. Re:OLD/Dupe...The Onion already had this story by EdIII · · Score: 1

      Thank You. I Fucking Needed That.

    2. Re:OLD/Dupe...The Onion already had this story by Nakeot · · Score: 1

      Incredible. Figure it'd be The Onion to bring the TRUTH to the front of the mess. I could not do the matter justice, alas.

    3. Re:OLD/Dupe...The Onion already had this story by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      I would have thought would be almost equally valid for Apples latest piece of over priced junk.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
  14. By Neruos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hybrid'ing is NOT THE ANSWER. Hybrid's stiff technology advancement by making a middleware that DOES NOT HELP the current power demand. Hybrids are an attempt at cashing in while looking like you're helping the power demand.

  15. But I hear that the fuel cell blows up by Amazing+Quantum+Man · · Score: 1

    whenever you try to use it to power your PC to run BitTorrent.

    --
    Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
  16. Safety? by mahohmei · · Score: 0

    Yeah, I want to carry around some hydrogen with me. Heck, even if *I* were in charge of airport security, I wouldn't want hydrogen beyond my security checkpoints.

    I've seen fuel-cell emergency power systems for datacenters and buildings. Sure--I want massive hydrogen tanks laying around. Can you say "terrorist target"?

  17. Coca cola powered makes a lot of sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Availability? You can buy Coke in the jungles of Peru. Laugh those "lack of infrastructure" ninnies in the face.

    Price? Coke is cheaper than water.

    Energy? 13 sugar cubes per can.

    You know it makes sense!(TM)

    1. Re:Coca cola powered makes a lot of sense by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      Availability? You can buy Coke in the jungles of Peru.

      I think he meant the soda.

      8-)

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    2. Re:Coca cola powered makes a lot of sense by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      Ah, but Jolt Cola already comes in cans shaped like batteries!

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  18. That's actually not very good... by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...Considering most recent cell phone batteries will already last 3-4 days. And does it have enough current capacity to RUN the cell phone, replacing the current battery?

    1. Re:That's actually not very good... by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      3-4 days?
      Do you keep your phone switched off?
      I would love a fuel cell which can power my phone for a full year.
      I will pay good money to forget the stupid charger.
      And i would love a fuel cell for my iBook G4.

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    2. Re:That's actually not very good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My phone definitely has more than 3 or 4 days standby time, and the battery is more than a year old.

      It's a Nokia 1112. The annoying thing about it is it doesn't even have a proper calendar, so I can't use it to help figure out what day of the week Mar 19 2009 is.

      But it has a chinese lunar calendar! BUT, the lunar calendar only works if you have it in chinese mode.

      WTF.

    3. Re:That's actually not very good... by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      Hmmm.. surprising.
      My LG KU990 gives me 2 days max with Bluetooth off. And hell it is a 3700mAh battery. I guess since its Flash-based, it sucks battery.
      What about the iPhone users in this forum?
      How much time do you guys get?

       

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    4. Re:That's actually not very good... by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      and how long does your laptop battery last?

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    5. Re:That's actually not very good... by RabidMoose · · Score: 1

      I've got a Helio Ocean. It's battery life can vary greatly depending on what I'm doing, and where I'm doing it.
      For example, my office happens to be partially underground and surrounded by a lot of concrete, so I get terrible signal at my desk. Using the phone's browser (to read sites blocked by my employer) a lot, or using the IM application, will drain the batter in 5-6 hours.
      The same activities when sitting in my car waiting for my wife to leave work use MUCH less battery, because that happens to see me sitting within 100 yards of a cell tower. The phone also puts out signifigantly less heat. I imagine I could use data in this way for 8-10 hours.
      Not using the phone much at all (it still checks for new email on it's own), making a couple quick calls/text messages, I can get 2-2.5 days worth of use before charging.

      The optimist in me hopes that Sony's portable charger would let me get a full week of heavy use out of my phone.

  19. Short answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The short answer? No.

  20. Too easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So wait, Sony's going to release a new battery?

    Wow, I think the potential for hilarity just made my brain spontaneously catch on fire.

    Sony, please stop trying to reinvent the battery and stick to technologically superior yet DRM and root-kit laden next-generation mini-Blu-Max

  21. Darwin's Award by mrops · · Score: 1

    Exploding Li-Ion batteries so close to my genitals is risky enough, add methanol to it and you get a contender for Darwin's award.

  22. Sorry for the inconvenience by jebrew · · Score: 1
    I dunno, maybe because it's too early, but I read the headline as "Sorry to Unveil..." and all I could think was "it's okay, one of these day's we'll actually have an alternative power source."

    need coffee...

  23. But... by dwiget001 · · Score: 1

    does it run Linux?