Good Robot Projects For K-5?

bugs2squash writes "Some of the parents of kids at my son's elementary school would like to set up a robotics club for the children. I see that Lego has a new line of robotics bricks called wedo (PDF) and that seems to be the path of least resistance to doing something. But I wanted to ask: What experience do all y'all have of running a robotics club for this age group (5 thru 10 years old) and what factors made it a success (or failure)? Did you use a commercial kit of parts or brew something from scratch? What kind of projects work well with kids this age? I was thinking maybe making robot flowers (yes, I know they'd all rather build robotic sharks with lasers)." (Here's another page about Wedo.)

Comments

Too young

[captaindomon]

I think that age group is too young to build robots on any informative level. I'm sorry, but they just won't "get it". Instead, why don't you buy some working robotic toys and let the kids program them to repeat an action, maybe, or just play with them? Maybe stage a battle with robotic dinosaurs or something? That would be way better for a five year old than actually building a working system.

Re:Too young

[R2.0]

I don't think you quite understand the mind of some young boys. R3.0 has been trying to build Transformers and other devices out of sticks and soda cans, and he's been doing that since he was 4 or 5.

In some kids, the desire to control is far less insistent than the drive to create. (And dismantle/destroy, but that's a topic for another post.

Re:Too young

[VeNoM0619]

I think that age group is too young to build robots on any informative level. I'm sorry, but they just won't "get it".

Just because the No Child Left Behind Act has you underestimating education, doesn't mean anyone is too young to indulge in technology.

Hell, 5-10? I'm sure they already have a decent applications/software background (surfing the web, running programs/games on the computer). Seeing how the linked PDF looked interesting, yet elegantly simple enough for a child (ok, so advertising may not speak truth), I would say it's worth a chance to teach. What's the worst that can happen if it goes over their heads? 1 student learns while 25 don't?

Re:Too young

[0100010001010011]

I can't find the story now. But there's a story about the old Canadian wilderness. A guy took his 12 year old son over the mountains to setup a new homestead. They built a temporary house and before the winter the father left the son and returned back to the rest of the family.

The son was there in the spring when the dad brought the rest of the family. Granted 5th grade is only 10-11, but a 12 year old than managed to hunt, clean, and survive in the Canadian wilderness a hundred years ago.

Stop treating kids like precious little snow flakes. Yes they need some guidance but they're a hell of a lot more capable than people give them credit for. I was building Capsela since I could walk and my parents swear that's why I became an engineer. A very basic programming language would have rocked.

When I was in 5th grade our school had a Commodore 64 and an Mac LCII. I would flip through the manual and set different color schemes on the Commodore (First time I was accused of "Hacking" by a teacher too....) and I figured out quite a bit on the LCII. (Including the plain text file that it stored MathBlaster scores in ;) ).

Re:Too young

[MozeeToby]

Lego Mindstorms could work. At least then the kids get to build something, including placing of motors and sensors, then program them using a simple flow chart style language. There's even an almost but not quite C language that they also support for the over achievers (or yourself to do demo's with).

If nothing else just let the Kindergartners and 1st graders build with the Lego's, add in the motors (locked full speed in one direction) for the 2st and 3nd graders, the flowchart programming for the 4th graders, and the sensors for the 5th graders. It's possible to get into some relatively advanced behavior such as line following, maze solving, and light searching with the default sensors and flowchart languange that is provided with the educational kits.

Re:Too young

[geekoid]

Your wrong.
I coach FLL (http://www.usfirst.org/) and see 5 year olds get it.
Once taught basic programming techniques and how to use the IDE(an hour to do both) they're off and going with only a little guidance. Usually when they get stuck no a part I''ll help the break the problem down.
"Hmm you need it to wait? maybe there is a wait od sleep instruction?"
Then they look and find it. after a couple of those they start looking to see if they can find an answer before getting stuck.

Kids are fucking smart...really really smart. They are way under utilized in our society.
You will never be smarter then when you are a kids..more knowledgeable, but never smarter.

"Instead, why don't you buy some working robotic toys and let the kids program them to repeat an action, maybe, or just play with them?"

Becasue:
A) they get bored with that in about 90 seconds.
B) Just becasue kids build robots doesn't mean they don't also play with toys.

Re:Too young

[Anonymous Coward]

Combine them. Have the kids build turtle kits and program them to draw. They're easy to build (two drive motors and one pen motor), easy to program (left speed, right speed, pen up or down), and produce immediate results that the kids can see.

In all seriousness, this was one of my first exposures to robotics and programming. It's still a fantastic start.

Re:Too young

[Anonymous Coward]

It depends... Children go through distinct mental phases where their capacity to analyze things is very different from other stages. Most of these children will still be in the pre-operational stage where they can only follow short chains of cause-effect. The older ones (changes at ~7) will be in the concrete operation stage where they can follow cause-effect chains but can't understand abstract things like `a pointer to a function that returns an array of...' so you should avoid certain things with them.

Personally, I'd give premade robots with a simple programing language (if statements, for loops and maybe functions).

Please note that some children go through these stages faster than other. This page seems to cover the topic decently.

Re:Too young

[TubeSteak]

Kids are fucking smart...really really smart. They are way under utilized in our society.

I know man, ever since those child labor laws were passed in 1938, business has just been terrible!

Re:Too young

[hoggoth]

Sign of the Beaver.

My 8 year old is reading it right now. He loves it.

Re:Too young

[plover]

I think that age group is too young to build robots on any informative level. I'm sorry, but they just won't "get it".

You'd be surprised. When my son was in Cub Scouts (grades 2-5) we had them do this kind of stuff all the time.

Here's a great project that's well within the age range of these kids: Bristlebots! Provide them with all the technical parts: motors, double sided tape, batteries, wires, solder, tools, and safety equipment, everything except for the toothbrush. Give them at least a week's notice to bring in a toothbrush, (provide printed flyers explaining the project) and they'll go home and beg mom or dad to help them find them an old toothbrush they can destroy. Of course you'll need some extras on hand so nobody is left out. But make sure they have plenty of notice. The anticipation is a huge part of the experience.

The flyers serve several purposes: they build excitement, they inform the parents about days and activities, they ask parents to help scrounge up a toothbrush, they can serve as the "permission slip" to use the tools under supervision, and depending on financial circumstances, you can ask parents to pay the cost of the parts. You need to be clear that parts will be provided for all the kids regardless of donations, so as not to leave anyone out. But really, the first hit on the Goog just found pager motors for $1.29, so parts costs should be dirt cheap. Even in a tough situation with a lot of underprivileged kids, you can probably find a couple people willing to donate $20 or so.

On build day, use the older kids to perform the tougher tasks. The 3rd and 4th graders are more than capable of sawing off the toothbrush handles with a hacksaw (provide a vise.) If you have a 5th grader in the group, they might even be capable of soldering, but if not you could still use one as a "third hand" to apply the solder. (Or you can pre-solder the wires yourself before Robot Day.) Direct supervision and proper safety equipment is required, of course, but kids LOVE to use "dangerous" tools. It's a great opportunity to educate them on safety, and there's very little chance of serious injury.

If you print up assembly directions, be sure you test them yourself before build day. Have a pre-made bristlebot to show the kids what they're making.

For the youngest kids, if you can find a way to decorate them (provide them with stickers or whatever) then they get to participate too. There's a tremendous value in getting the kids to do the assembly. It might be slightly beyond the 5-6 year olds (it's definitely kid dependent,) but even the 7-year olds are likely to be able to accomplish it. And the younger kids may just have fun playing with them, but it's still participation.

Be sure to follow up the build event with some kind of organized contest where the kids can enter their robots. It's best to run it the same day so that kids don't have a chance to lose or break their robots or wear out their batteries.

If you operate the bristlebots on a horizontal dry-erase board as the article pictures, you could try having them erase marker lines, or race from one end to the other, or out of a circle, or follow a simple drawn track. Pre-print some award certificates for things like "Robot with the Cleanest Teeth" and a handful of other cheesy awards, and hand them out for things like "the kid who picked the highest number."

Trust me -- if you can organize this little bit, the kids will love it and the parents will beg you to do it again next year.

Re:Too young

[mustafap]

>but can't understand abstract things like `a pointer to a function that returns an array of...'

Most of the engineers I work with don't understand that either.

Range of students.

[Albio]

5 year olds and 10 year olds can be quite different. It would not be a good idea to treat all of these kids as the same.

FIRST JLL

[spinkham]

FIRST junior Lego league is designed for this age group, and though I haven't been involved at that age level, I know the middle school and high school programs are good, and the elementary school version looks age appropriate.

The FIRST organization is definitely an outstanding model of teaching kids what is is that programmers and engineers do in a way that is exciting and relevant to each age group. I highly recommend checking them out.

http://www.usfirst.org/firstlegoleague/community/jfll/welcome.html

Re:FIRST JLL

[dubious elise]

Great call on FIRST - I was involved in their high school program for three years and I started a regular FLL program at my K-8 grade school. We had to start including younger students (3rd and 4th grade) than our 5th and 6th graders in the regular program because they were solving the proposed problems too quickly and efficiently. Even if you do not know what to do with the kits or how to write a line of code, FIRST and LEGO provide excellent resources, the latter of which are not limited to the annual games that FIRST develops.

Robots?

[KuNgFo0]

Before tackling something as complex as a "robots" how about basic things like teaching them about electricity and magnetism. Let them build electric motors, circuits that light up LEDs, and don't forget mechanical concepts like gears, pulleys and levers. Think fundamental physics-type experiments.

Re:Robots?

[R2.0]

You have it backwards - kids learn about "electric motors, circuits that light up LEDs, gears, pulleys and levers" by building things that use them. Then, While they are building something cool, you teach them the principles behind it.

Robotix

[AnotherAnonymousUser]

I don't know if they even make them any more, but I always had Robotix when I was a kid - they use a hex shaped connector and were a lot bigger and sturdier than Legos, but you could use them to build robots literally as tall as you were. The sets came with motors that connected to a battery pack and to a control panel that you could use from several feet away. I always had a lot of fun building things from the ground up using the raw materials and integrating the motors into the structures to give mobility to the construct, or to enable it to perform some kind of task. Like Legos, the sets come with guide books, but I always found that, even at that age, I could come up with new and better ways to build the thing they had pictured than the instructions gave. Link to the first site that demos it: http://www.roboticsandthings.com/

Perp-a-tron

[Tx]

Whenever I think about kids and robots I can't help but think about Perp-a-tron. Not sure if a child molesting robot is a suitable project for the kids, but it'll put them ahead of the game.

Re:Perp-a-tron

[Em Emalb]

Don't forget your robot insurance, especially if the little ones are going to be around their grandparents much...

http://www.hulu.com/watch/2340/saturday-night-live-old-glory

First Lego League

[phunster]

There is a First Lego League with particapation starting at 6 years old I think this might fit your bill. I've been hearing great things about it.

The URL is: http://www.usfirst.org/firstlegoleague/community/homepage.html

Good Luck

I'll bet

[Anonymous Coward]

... when you were a kid you had a lot of friends.

My favourite toys when I was age 5-10 were capsela, construx, and Jr. Radio kits. I only wish shows like Battlebots were around to further pique my interest.

Anything you can do to get your kid into higher-level thinking and problem solving (like elementary computer programming and robotics) will give them a huge leg-up in the education system. Any way you can make it fun for them will help them understand more.

Re:I'll bet

[v1]

My favourite toys when I was age 5-10 were capsela, construx, and Jr. Radio kits

definitely capsela for them. Motor, switch, gears, easy to put together. I made a "robot" for a ~5th grade "build a robot" project our class had, and the class went wild over it. Mine was definitely the only one with moving parts. The rest were cutout painted cereal boxes etc.

For quality parts get Fischer Technik.

[Jane Q. Public]

Fischer Technik has by far the highest quality parts for constructing this kind of thing... but at a cost. They are not cheap. On the other hand, they are used by children to make models and by Universities to demonstrate & prototype industrial robots. It all depends on where you want to start and how much you want to spend.

Labview plug

[Ethanol-fueled]

Don't forget that Lego and your kid's creativity aren't the only winners here. According to the last, parenthetical link in the summary it's powered by LabView, which is something every technical person will see again and again in their lifetime.

Its modular, graphical interface is a perfect compliment for Lego-style robot building(and is also invaluable for test and measurement automation).

WeDo probably only appropriate at young end

[dbc]

We (my 9 YO daughter and I) have NXT. I've see WeDo, it is probably more appropriate at the lower age ranges, since it is more limited. I know people that teach robotics using lego, although I haven't done it myself.

First, philosophically, you have to decide if you want to go the "competition" (ie FIRST, Botball, etc) route, or more of an "educational constructionist" route. Personally, I think competitions set up a host of perverse incentives that work against true learning. Far better to set up "challenges", and let each kid (or team) see how far they can get. The learning is in the trying, not the winning.

How much money do you have? Lego works well with teams of two. Can you afford one kit per two kids? Also you need to handle the logistics of how to store/secure half-built robots between sessions. And you will also need to get good at inventorying Lego. Exotic Lego parts have a way of disappearing... you might find yourself on BrickLink more than you want to be.

NXT-G is not easy for kids to use, despite anything Lego tells you. Expect to spend some time on that.

So, having said all those negative sounding things, I don't really know of a better alternative than NXT for your sitation.... and my daughter and I *do* have a heaping pile of non-Lego robots of various kinds.

For a gentle intro try "blinkybugs"

[Ugarte]

This is a really simple project, which can be found on Instructables, but one can also buy kits...

www.blinkybug.com

While it's a stretch to call them robots, they do interact in a way, and can help kids understand the basics of electricity and sensors. they antennae form a really simple spring switch, which triggers the blinking of their eyes (LEDs), and the body is a coin cell battery. I made some of these at a workshop at the Maker Faire a while ago.

Drawbots

[jomegat]

Makezine ran an article last week on an interesting robot that looks appropriate for that age group.

roblocks

[six11]

I feel obliged to mention my colleague's PhD thesis project from CMU, which he's now (I think) in the process of commercializing. It's called roblocks at the moment, and it's a modular robotic construction kit. Each block is an autonomous robot with onboard computation. Some blocks have sensors, others are actuators, and others can perform math. You can build different behaviors by connecting them together.

Roblocks are incredibly cool. Some may go so far as to say they are rad.

correction needed

[geekoid]

"I don't think you quite understand the mind of some young boys. "

Correction:
"I don't think you quite understand the mind of some young children. "

As a parent of a son and daughter, I see how that simple usage can make a young girl think girls don't do that sort of thing.
Young girls want an try to identify with being a girl, and as such avoid things labels for boys.(visa versa as well)

I encourage my daughter(and my son) in mathematics, science, engineering, chemistry(which she loves) etc and ahve seen her interest drop off as soon as some jack ass* adult says it's for 'boys'.

Clearly this doesn't involved grammar~

Fortunatly I talk with her often about it, and think she is starting to get it.

I don't want to seem a pedantic ass, but It si very personal. And yes, I will correct an adult I'm talking to if any kids are nearby.

*not that you are a jack ass, just that some of the people saying this are in a position of 'authority'.

Re:correction needed

[R2.0]

I can understand your frustration. I have a 13 year old daughter who is excellent at math and science, but gets those same signals. I try to support her as best I can (she got an A on her science fair project with my help).

I was more referring to the teaching methods the GPP suggested. While I agree that both boys and girls can excel at math and sciences, the generally learn differently. I can't imagine the "start with the basics" program would work with my son, though it might have worked with my daughter.. Generally, boys and girls learn differently, and not acknowledging that hurts them both.

For very little kids (3-5)

[davevr]

For the low end of that range, it is fun to PLAY robot. Explain the concept that robots only do exactly what you say, and then make some "commands" like "move forward", "turn left", "pick up object" and then work together to try to solve problems, like "how can we get the rubber snake into your sister's bed?". The kid plays the role of the programmer, the CPU, the robot motor (we use toy dump trucks typically for this), and the all-important role of the debugger.

Re:Sharks with Lasers? Feh

[yo303]

10 year old kids weren't even born when that movie was released. Now, Transformers on the other hand has had a lot of influence.

Meh. Those kids weren't even remotely planned when the original Transformer cartoons came out. Oh, does that make me sound old?