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Utah Trying To Restrict Keyword Advertising ... Again

Eric Goldman writes "The Utah legislature has tried to restrict keyword advertising twice before, with disastrous results. In 2004, Utah tried to ban keyword advertising in adware; that law was declared unconstitutional. In 2007, Utah tried to regulate competitive keyword advertising; after a firestorm of protests, Utah repealed the law in 2008. Despite this track record, Utah is trying to regulate keyword advertising a third time. HB 450 would allow trademark owners to block competitors from displaying certain types of keyword ads. In practice, this law is just another attempt by the Utah legislature to enact a law that doesn't help consumers at all but does help trademark owners suppress their online competition."

41 of 257 comments (clear)

  1. remove the Mormons tag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Please remove the "Mormons" tag. Not all Mormons think that way. San Francisco has liberal Mormons, Texas has conservative Mormons, and there are libertarians dispersed throughout.

    1. Re:remove the Mormons tag by qoncept · · Score: 3, Insightful

      +1. It's like having a story about water melons and adding a "black people" tag.

      --
      Whale
    2. Re:remove the Mormons tag by stoolpigeon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It would have dropped off on its own - now you all have made sure anyone who comes along the thread later will know it was there. Sometimes it is worth just chilling out and seeing where things go.

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      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    3. Re:remove the Mormons tag by Ironchew · · Score: 5, Funny

      You have experienced the horror of keyword advertising!

    4. Re:remove the Mormons tag by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 4, Funny

      Please remove the "Mormons" tag. Not all Mormons think that way. San Francisco has liberal Mormons, Texas has conservative Mormons, and there are libertarians dispersed throughout.

      Oh, c'mon, Dude!! What's wrong with you? Geez... Christian-bashing is the last socially acceptable form of bigotry left to Americans, and now you want to take that away, too?

    5. Re:remove the Mormons tag by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It would have dropped off on its own - now you all have made sure anyone who comes along the thread later will know it was there. Sometimes it is worth just chilling out and seeing where things go.

      Maybe. But most times it's worth taking a stand and pointing out bigotry and hypocrisy in the editorial slant of holier-than-thou hipster tech blogs right when you find it.

    6. Re:remove the Mormons tag by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That just isn't true. Some don't, some do. If you ask me, the smart ones do consider Mormons to be Christians (you know, since they believe in Christ, and all).

    7. Re:remove the Mormons tag by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, that would be a full time job around here. With a few assistants. Working 28 hour days.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    8. Re:remove the Mormons tag by ZoobieWa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually I think the link can be made. Utah is the Mormon core. The culture starts here (I live here) and radiates outward. Almost every lawmaker is Mormon. They are informed in their economic policies by the church. This law is, in effect, largely Mormon. Church and state are not so separated here. If you lived here, you wouldn't be considered to be a very good Mormon.

    9. Re:remove the Mormons tag by stoolpigeon · · Score: 3, Informative

      Those tags are user generated. Do you think it is also worthwhile to reply to every comment troll?

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    10. Re:remove the Mormons tag by Scrameustache · · Score: 4, Insightful

      +1. It's like having a story about water melons and adding a "black people" tag.

      Actually, it's like having a story about laws regarding information technology and someones persecution complex turns the thread about their religion, the places where it is practiced, and the vrious shades it comes in.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    11. Re:remove the Mormons tag by gnick · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, my take is that most people consider Mormons to be Christians, although kind of an odd sect. But, many Christians refuse to acknowledge Mormons to be Christian. Actually I've talked to more than one Protestant that even consider Catholics to be non-Christian. It all seems a bit silly to me - If you consider Jesus holy, you're a Christian. If you don't, you're not. Some Christians just have very very different beliefs and practices than other Christians.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    12. Re:remove the Mormons tag by the_B0fh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you consider Jesus holy

      By that standard, Jews and Muslims are Christians too!

    13. Re:remove the Mormons tag by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Please remove the "Mormons" tag. Not all Mormons think that way.

      But most Mormons do. They are a fairly conservative bunch on the whole. The story is about a conservative, Republican, Mormon dominated legislature trying to get the internet to play by corporate rules. The "mormon" tag is just as appropriate as a "republican" or "conservative" or "corporations" tag on the story.

      People can legitimately object to stereotypes and prejudices. But sometimes those stereotypes are things that are legitimately true and that need to be said, even if they do offend. Not allowing this leads to situations in which we now find ourselves. According to the UN, we can now no longer "defame" religions or their followers, no matter how much we disagree with their beliefs or practices.

      Forget the rough stuff. Mormons, by dogma, can't drink coffee and tea. I personally think this is a stupid prohibition. Muslims, again by dogma, can't draw pictures of Mohammad. I personally think this a really stupid prohibition. Catholics( especially in third world countries), again by dogma, can't use condoms. I personally think this is an appallingly stupid prohibition which costs lives every single day. I think the people who follow these prohibitions are being unreasonable, inconsiderate and irresponsible.

      My opinions here could land me in jail in many countries for being "bigoted" or for "stereotyping" or for "hate speech". Some people will say that I'm tarnishing the image of whole groups of people, or that not all people in those groups support these prohibitions. Tell that to the people living in Utah, or Saudi Arabia, or Italy, who have to put up with prohibitions imposed on them in the name of the silent religious majority.

      In conclusion, it is not automatically "Wrong(TM)" to stereotype a religious community. In fact, when that communities religious practices start to infringe on others liberties, it is right to stereotype, lampoon and indeed "defame" those practices, and to force that community to reflect upon itself. Religion should never be except from criticism, and especially satire.

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      May the Maths Be with you!
    14. Re:remove the Mormons tag by CaptainPatent · · Score: 2, Funny

      There needs to be a "+1 Priceless" tag for comments like this.

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      Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
    15. Re:remove the Mormons tag by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 3, Informative

      What is bigoted about adding a "mormon" tag when over 80% of the Utah state legislature are members of the LDS church?

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      May the Maths Be with you!
    16. Re:remove the Mormons tag by geobeck · · Score: 3, Interesting

      ...even though I am proud of what I believe

      Ah, but you're not supposed to be proud in your belief, but humble in it. After all, did not St. James Buffett describe the seven deadly sins thusly:

      1. Pride...Thou shalt not have pride in thy neighbor.
      2. Coveting...Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.
      3. Lust...Thou shalt not lust after his neighbor's wife.[sic]
      4. Anger...Do not be angry with your neighbor's wife.
      5. Gluttony...Do not eat thy neighbor's wife's...popcorn.
      6. Envy...Do not envy your neighbor's wife.
      7. Sloth...Do not be a slob.
      8. And the eighth deadly sin is...PIZZA!

      For what it's worth, I know two Mormon couples. They're very nice people, they don't have multiple wives, and are very active in the community. They don't proselytize on the evils of keyword advertising. And that proves this isn't "a Mormon thing" because, as we all know, the plural of "anecdote" is "data".

      --
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    17. Re:remove the Mormons tag by geobeck · · Score: 5, Funny

      I think the difference boils down like this:

      • Jews and Muslims consider Christ to be a prophet.
      • Christians consider Christ to be The Prophet.
      • Televangelists consider Christ to be The Profit.
      --
      Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
    18. Re:remove the Mormons tag by flitty · · Score: 2
      Ok, if you are going to argue about which invisible fairy is right, at least get your facts straight about Mormons.

      To them Jesus was fully divine and fully human during his time on Earth ...And Mormons see Jesus as kind of a super-angel now, not the Son of God or God incarnate like mainstream Christians.

      No, he's God's special son. In mormon doctrine, everyone is one of god's children, just jesus was the special one who was sent to atone for everybody elses sins. Hell, even lucifer is gods son, he just wanted to force everyone to be good, rather than giving them free choice.

      The main difference between "mainstream Christians" (as you call them) and mormons, is that mormons don't believe in the weird Trinity Thing. They see the trinity as 3 separate beings. Most of the other stuff regarding Divinity/godhood is the same. it's like arguing that if you think that Jesus' skin color is other than white, you aren't a christian.

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      Whether or not there is some sort of god, I'm not supposed to say/god is a word and the argument ends there-Smog
    19. Re:remove the Mormons tag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except that Mormonism is the Scientology of early America. Anyone here who rallies against the COS when they do...what they do, but gives slack to the LDS, has been deluded by the idea that "real" religions are sacrosanct and shouldn't be attacked for any reason.

      Bashing a religion is not bigotry, because your choice of religion is your own. Most monotheists believe that in order to have fulfillment as a sentient being, you need to be personally adored by the omnipotent, eternal creator of existence itself. To me that seems slightly self-centered. Christians worship and purport to love a god that demanded that his own son be brutally tortured and executed if he didn't want to see his favorite race of created beings done the same way. Mormonism and Scientology are even worse because they haven't been around long enough to weed out the people at the top who know that it's all lies but continue to profit from it anyway. Pointing out the flaws in that sort of thinking, or even making blanket statements about how stupid those religions are, is not bigotry, it's pointing out that a set of ideas is stupid. Not only completely different, but absolutely reasonable.

    20. Re:remove the Mormons tag by Devout_IPUite · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And yet you post as an Anonymous Coward. I think people have an obligation to stand up and say this without fear of reprisal. Because if you are only willing to say something without attaching yourself to it, you're really killing your own qualifications.

      That said, I endorse the post above.

    21. Re:remove the Mormons tag by geminidomino · · Score: 2, Informative

      *nudge nudge*

      The "Priceless" ad campaign was mastercard...

    22. Re:remove the Mormons tag by Devout_IPUite · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's because those who live in glass houses would prefer no one throws stones...

    23. Re:remove the Mormons tag by belmolis · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't think that "Catholic" in that context means what you think it means. It is not a reference to the Roman Catholic Church: rather, it means "universal", as in "he has catholic tastes". The use of Catholic by itself to designate the Roman Catholic Church is shorthand. There are other churches that consider themselves "Catholic".

    24. Re:remove the Mormons tag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think people have an obligation to stand up and say this without fear of reprisal.

      Which is sadly not possible. I posted AC not really because of fear of reprisal from the organizations themselves, but because society as a whole views comments like mine as hateful and bigoted (because religions that survive do so in part by convincing people that those who attack religion are bigoted/hateful/evil/enemies/etc). It's fortunate that expression is protected, but even so I prefer not to put myself at risk of being turned down for future jobs, or whatever else might happen, because someone linked my real name to "hate speech."

    25. Re:remove the Mormons tag by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 2, Informative

      "And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church"

      catholic
      adj.
      1. Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive
      2. Including or concerning all humankind; universal
      3. Catholic
      a. Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church.
      b. Of or relating to the universal Christian church.
      c. Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church.
      d. Of or relating to those churches that have claimed to be representatives of the ancient undivided church.

  2. Process should be fair. by gravos · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well, it's one thing if a car dealership who is not Toyota starts buying "Toyota" as a keyword. Arguably this is similar to buying Toyota.com and could be misleading to customers. It's quite another thing if you run a small grocery store called "Toyota" that delivers online in your neighborhood and you start buying Toyota keywords and they try to block you for trademark infringement.

    Businesses should be able to protect their trademarks but the process should be fair. Little guys who don't compete in the same market should not get squashed.

    1. Re:Process should be fair. by the+darn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nonsense; more than one advertiser can buy "Toyota" as a keyword, while there is only one Toyota.com. There's nothing wrong with presenting alternatives when someone is looking for something; search is not an exact science anyhow, and many results end up being something other than what you're looking for. A Chevy dealer could buy the keyword and run an ad promoting the Malibu as an alternative to the Camry or such.

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      Ceci n'est pas un post.
    2. Re:Process should be fair. by dcollins · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, it's one thing if a car dealership who is not Toyota starts buying "Toyota" as a keyword. Arguably this is similar to buying Toyota.com and could be misleading to customers.

      Totally disagree. If someone gets a consumer reports article that says "Better than a Toyota!", they should be able to promote that information with a keyword ad (among a host of other examples). As long as you're not tricking buyers into thinking some product is a Toyota when it's not, it should be fair game and free speech.

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  3. So, Google will have a disclaimer... by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In tiny print, at the bottom of each page: "Please do not use this site where prohibited."

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    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
  4. Seems a sensible restriction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    It seems Utah merely wants to prevent advertisers from getting married to too many keywords.

  5. Not as clear cut as you might think. by tjstork · · Score: 3, Insightful

    First off, I note that the "mormon" tag on the article. If there were a quote from a black leader, I wonder, would you tag the article as "black"?

    I would not be so quick to bury this guy in your haste to have weaker trademarks. There is an interesting question, buried in this article. It is, what does a trademark actually buy? A trademark is a sort of a definition of an invented word, administered today by the government. A search word is as also a definition of a word, administered by a private corporation and sold to the highest bidder.

    When Linux trademarks "Linux", it is to say that he has the rights to the definition of this word in some way as it pertains to his product. But, if I buy Linux on Google, then, I get the right to define the word by having my definition be placed in a preferred position.

    Thus, you almost have to view trademark as a contest between the federal first come first serve word ownership mechanism, and, a private enterprise word as an auction mechanism advanced by the likes of Google.

    There is a real dividing line between corporation and state, and the irony here is that those who would argue that trademarks should be less powerful by definition argue that words should be auctioned, rather than licensed, and conversely, those who argue for strong government trademarks ultimately argue that the government should control more the meaning of words rather than the free market.

    I would be willing to bet that leftists who casually seek to undermine business by eliminating trademarks might be well advised to rethink that position, as they should so many others. I can't imagine that they of all people would really want a world where the definitions of words are decided by the highest bidder. It runs the risk of undermining everything that they stand for, and for that reason I'd have to conclude that people rushing to digitally behead "the mormon" might well consider that the "the mormon" is doing them a favor.

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    This is my sig.
  6. The unfortunate reality of government by IamGarageGuy+2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The way these items get passed is with continually trying the bill again. I have seen unpopular laws passed at the local level that were thrown out repeatedly until eventually the right opposers were either not present or just plain old tired of fighting it. I believe the term is patient gradualism. Just keep trying to get a law passed, until eventually new lawmakers are present or the opposition is not present at the time.

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    Stay tuned for new sig...
  7. Utah? by girlintraining · · Score: 4, Funny

    This is a state where 58% of its inhabitants claim membership in a single religion, and the overwhelming majority of the legislature comes from this demographic. They're not exactly known for their progressive views on technology. Might I suggest we kindly totally and completely ignore this state? They're clearly out of touch with not just reality, but the rest of the country as well. At worst, Utah-nians just won't be able to go online, and golly gee what a shame that would be. -_- Now go ahead and mod me to hell for stating the obvious. Or can we at least re-classify this under "It's funny, laugh." ?

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    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:Utah? by swillden · · Score: 2, Informative

      They're not exactly known for their progressive views on technology.

      Actually that's not true, either of the church or of the residents of Utah.

      The church is very progressive (among churches) in its adoption of technology, both mass media for delivering its message to the world, and computer technology for its daily operations.

      With regard to the state, there was a time a few years ago when Utah was second only to California in state GDP attributable to software development. I don't mean percentage of GDP, either, I mean dollars. With the demise of WordPerfect and decline of Novell, and the subsequent relocation of most of Novell's operations to Massachussetts, that has changed, but there is still a very significant high-tech industry in the state. There are thousands of small software companies that were started as Novell and WordPerfect died, and many of them are highly successful still. Utah is a rather good place to find employment as a programmer.

      The Utah state government was one of the first to aggressively embrace e-government, and received many awards a few years ago for the quality and depth of the on-line services made available. State employees have recently shifted to a 4x10 work week, instead of 5x8, and that shift was made possible primarily by the fact that nearly all of residents' routine interaction with their government offices is now online.

      For tech companies looking to set up, Utah has a highly-educated workforce (one of the effects of the large number of Mormons, since the church strongly encourages education) and is one of the nationwide leaders in broadband penetration. The UTOPIA project has delivered fiber to the home of large swaths of Salt Lake and Utah valleys, so there are many thousands (tens of thousands?) of homes with 10 Mbps symmetric network connections.

      Personally, I'm looking to move OUT of Utah because it's getting too crowded for my taste, but your perception of the state as a technological backwater couldn't be further from the truth.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  8. Actually it does... by tjstork · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Restricting the use of language doesn't work.

    Actually it has and it historically does. That's why people do it. But this debate isn't really about restricting language, it's, deciding, who gets to own the definitions of words, the government, or the private sector.

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    This is my sig.
  9. Trademark by mlwmohawk · · Score: 3, Informative

    A trademark is a sort of a definition of an invented word, administered today by the government.

    Not exactly. The term "Windows" is trademarked, should Microsoft be the only entity to be able to purchase "windows?" of course not.

    There is a real dividing line between corporation and state, and the irony here is that those who would argue that trademarks should be less powerful by definition argue that words should be auctioned, rather than licensed, and conversely, those who argue for strong government trademarks ultimately argue that the government should control more the meaning of words rather than the free market.

    Neither of these arguments are correct.

    Trademarks are names and logos under which businesses trade. The reason why they are protected is to protect the reputation of the institution that holds them. Believe it or not, there is "fair use" of trade marks. It is perfectly legal to use someone else's trademark if you using only enough of it to identify the business.

    For instance. A car dealership named "Planet Subaru" has the trademark "Planet Subaru." As a dissatisfied customer, I can create a website named "www.planetsubarusucks.com." I can even use the trademarked name "Planet Subaru" on this site as long as there is no confusion that I am associated with them, only as much of the trademark as necessary to identify the business, and that I do not intend to trade on their mark.

    It is perfectly legitimate for a ford dealer to buy "toyota" to get business from a competitor. Trademarks are not for censorship.

  10. Uh, WordPerfect and Novell? by tjstork · · Score: 2, Informative

    They're not exactly known for their progressive views on technology

    You mean, like, when the mormons invented WordPerfect, one of the first great Word Processors, or pioneered networking with Novell, the first great networking company?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Ashton_(executive)

    http://www.mormonwiki.com/Ray_Noorda

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    1. Re:Uh, WordPerfect and Novell? by girlintraining · · Score: 2, Funny

      You mean, like, when the mormons invented WordPerfect, one of the first great Word Processors, or pioneered networking with Novell, the first great networking company?

      Whoah. Hey, did you, like, know Robert Oppenheimer worked on the Manhattan Project and studied Hinduism? So, like, the entire religion of Hinduism can claim it invented the nuke! That's, like, totally and completely awesome! Dude!!!!!! -_- /Sarcasm.

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    2. Re:Uh, WordPerfect and Novell? by tjstork · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I guess I'd better flee the country then, because hell if I want american culture validated by anything I do. O_

      It doesn't matter if you flee, because you are a product of American culture.

      a set of circumstances that operates completely and totally independent of "culture" and has more to do with the local environment they were raised in

      Well, uh, the local environment is usually what culture is really all about... culture is the rules that are permissible behind closed doors as much as open ones.

      But of course, people have been using coincidence to validate their crackpot theories (religious significance in particular) since the dawn of time

      But the thing is, historically speaking, being a religious fanatic and having a conservative appreciation of culture matters. You can bash tradition and culture as much as you want, but they work. And, in fact, even though you might be anti-culture, even most anti-religious people and leaders of the far left will concede that theirs is not a project to rid the world of christian culture as it is to replace it with a culture of their own. Culture is just something that you can't escape. Even if you are in the "I'm not in any culture", crowd, you are still in the "I'm not in any culture culture".

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  11. Re:Uh, WordPerfect and Novell? &Linux/Unix too by irenaeous · · Score: 2, Funny

    You forgot to mention SCO! The people from which Unix was pirated to form Linux! Where would tech be today without great Utahnian innovators like Darl McBride and Blake Stowell?