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Audio Watermarks Could Pinpoint Film Pirates By Seat

Slatterz points out a brief mention at PC Authority of a story at Torrent freak about using watermarking embedded in movies' soundtracks to reveal the exact location of camera-wielding bootleggers in a theater; the inventors (here's an abstract of their paper) claim it's accurate to within 44 centimeters.

336 comments

  1. Oh Really? by parasonic · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And once it's publicized, is it really all that hard to throw a couple of wireless microphones out there under others' seats to "mix things up?" It would work if no one knew about it, but once it's out...

    Pretty much a moot idea.

    1. Re:Oh Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And is the MPAA going to start requiring theaters to record exactly where each of its customers are sitting at each screening of every movie that might be pirated?

    2. Re:Oh Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well done, you just saved a LOT of theatres money.
      This (their) idea is officially dead.

      Next!

    3. Re:Oh Really? by Garridan · · Score: 1

      Yes, they might. A friend recently got caught by a red light camera. They're incredible -- they mail you a picture of the intersection with your car in it, a closeup of the car, and a closeup of the license plate with enough resolution to clearly read the tabs. It will cost a few hundred to a couple thousand bucks to install a camera above each screen. I'd bet that if the MPAA required theaters to install such a system or simply stop carrying all major hollywood films, the theaters would do it. Pretty soon, people will get used to a bright flash between the previews and the start of the film. Add to that an infrared video camera, and they can keep track of people changing seats during the movie.

    4. Re:Oh Really? by MultiModeRb87 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Pretty soon, people will get used to a bright flash between the previews and the start of the film. Add to that an infrared video camera, and they can keep track of people changing seats during the movie.

      Of course, the natural response of the wittier bootleggers will be to wear a Guy Fawkes mask to the theater. :-)

    5. Re:Oh Really? by Bandman · · Score: 1

      And run a Chinese fire drill immediately after each flash...

    6. Re:Oh Really? by Twice88 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Also this technologies use would require a lot of work on the movie theaters behalf. As of now move theaters ave no assigned seating and do not now the names/personal information of those attending movies in heir theaters. So knowing where the movie was filmed from would bring no charges to the individual.

    7. Re:Oh Really? by Firehed · · Score: 4, Funny

      Sweet - all the more reason to just stay home and watch a downloaded copy for free.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    8. Re:Oh Really? by MacWiz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Even if they could get every patrons' ID for accurate seating charts of every showing of every film across the country (idea-stopping problem one), I would still be more than a little skeptical of such "evidence" were I on a jury.

    9. Re:Oh Really? by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      And who in the western world would buy such a bootlegged movie anyway?

      It's just to wait until it gets ripped from DVD or blu-ray, which will happen soon enough.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    10. Re:Oh Really? by RichardJenkins · · Score: 1

      Precisely, this would show you the 'exact location' of the camera, not the bootlegger. Subtle yet important difference.

    11. Re:Oh Really? by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      I can guarantee you that if the theater clerk asked me for my ID so she could record my name and address and hand me assigned seating, I'd turn around and walk out, never to return. I don't think everyone would, but definitely more than a few people.

      Even if no personally identifying information was requested (just using a camera in the ticket booth instead, I guess), I still wouldn't accept assigned seating in a theater. The whole point to getting there early is to pick your optimal seating.

    12. Re:Oh Really? by Daerath · · Score: 1

      It is an interesting exercise, but completely impractical. The only place this would really be useful is at an opera or some other venue where they can track who purchased a specific ticket, and then only if you purchased with a credit card. If you paid cash at a box office, it wouldn't work. For movie theaters, this is completely worthless except to possibly uncover a pattern of where movie pirates sit while using a hidden camera. And even then, most movies these days are pirated from the production facility or off copies released to people for review.

    13. Re:Oh Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least in AU, the biggest cinema chains already issue tickets with an allocated seat on it, which is slowly getting enforced more and more (it's enforced for new releases with packed cinemas, not so much for late runs). Wouldn't be too hard to match up a ticket sale with security camera footage.

    14. Re:Oh Really? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      And is the MPAA going to start requiring theaters to record exactly where each of its customers are sitting at each screening of every movie that might be pirated?

      Yes, the movie will watch you. No foreign travel visa required.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    15. Re:Oh Really? by WNight · · Score: 1

      With all the pain they're adding to the process it's like free just got cheaper.

  2. Another reason not to go to the theatre by hcdejong · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For this to be useful, the theatre would have to identify who's in which seat, which means
    a. showing ID when you buy tickets (and retaining the seating data for weeks or months)
    b. assigned seating.

    It's almost as if they don't want people to go to the movie theatre any more.

    1. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I went to New Zealand last year and went to a movie in Christchurch. It was a pretty odd experience. It had assigned seating.

      I ignored it since there were only like 4 other people in the theater but the seats were awesome. Think lazyboy. And the aisles were large enough for someone to walk past you with out moving, or them even needing to turn sideways. I would say there were less than 200 seats in the theater. And it was a medium sized theater. Oh yeah and the ticket price was ~$7 US and the food was normally priced.

      I don't know if that's indicative of your average NZ theater, but it does live up to the "assigned seating" requirement.

    2. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Solandri · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The theaters aren't the ones pushing it, the studios are. Right now the theaters hand all their revenue from movie ticket sales to the studios. They scrape by on food and drink sales. Since the studios are getting all the ticket money without actually owning or running any of the theaters, it creates a situation which can come up with bizarre ideas like this which have no regard for the practicalities of actually running a theater.

    3. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Slisochies · · Score: 2, Informative

      The assigned seats are generally only for when the theater is full, and you can make a claim for your assigned seats.

      Otherwise nobody sticks to the plan.

    4. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by nurb432 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, they would rather just get the federal government to tax us all and send the $ direct to the MPAA.

      Then sue anyone that is dumb enough to go see a movie.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    5. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Nick+Ives · · Score: 2, Informative

      Most (but not all) cinemas here in the UK give you a seat number with your ticket. It's not enforced in any real sense, even when the theatre is packed people are cool about you taking "their" seat if you're just trying to sit closer to friends and they can still fit together with their crew.

      Of course this idea is pointless because most people pay for the cinema in cash.

      --
      Nick
    6. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by mpe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Since the studios are getting all the ticket money without actually owning or running any of the theaters, it creates a situation which can come up with bizarre ideas like this which have no regard for the practicalities of actually running a theater.

      Or that when designing the accoustics of such a room you want to ensure that a person's seat position affects their "audio experience" as little as possible.

    7. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Right now the theaters hand all their revenue from movie ticket sales to the studios.

      I've heard only about half of ticket sales goes to the studio.

    8. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by noidentity · · Score: 1

      I mean hell, so they finger you as the one who recorded the movie, since their flawless watermarking system said so. How are you going to prove you didn't? Not that I've been to a movie theater in about 5 years now...

    9. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 4, Funny

      Ahhh, at last a market for my seat cushion based DNA sampler! And my colleagues all said it was just a pain in the ass... Who's laughing now?

      Note: Management is not responsible for infections due to dirty or re-used sampler needles.

      --
      You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
    10. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by The+Ultimate+Fartkno · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's actually a sliding scale. The first 2-4 weeks a film is out the studios will keep upwards of 70% of all ticket sales. In the case of a hotly-anticipated film such as a new Batman or Bond, the percentage will go even higher to 80% or above. Each week that a film plays the scale will adjust slightly in favor of the theatres until it's almost an equitable split, but since most movies make almost all their money within the first month they're out that really doesn't benefit first-run theatres much. What it really *does* benefit are the bargain theatres that show whatever came out 6-8 weeks ago. The studios look at them as a marginal market, so they actually do pretty well compared to the big multiplexes. In the case of my local $2.50 cinema, the popcorn's fresh, the movies are just as good as they were a month ago, and teenagers on their *#&$ing cellphones get kicked out. The only thing I'm missing is 64-channel Dobly Digital, which I'll give up any day just to sit in a theatre full of people who are there to watch a movie and not sit and IM all night.

    11. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Tehrasha · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I think the aggrigated data would be interesting to look at. Especially when it will likely include data like

      'Location: Inside projection booth, attached to sound system.'

    12. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Threni · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > For this to be useful, the theatre would have to identify who's in which seat, which means
      > a. showing ID when you buy tickets (and retaining the seating data for weeks or months)
      > b. assigned seating.

      Also, which showing. That seat will be sat in for several showings per day for several weeks. Also, people (in the UK) don't always sit in their assigned seat if there are a lot of empty seats, which has been the case for every movie I've ever seen. How are they doing to prove you were in that seat? And won't it be easy to screw with the audio so as to defeat this nonsense?

    13. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Technician · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's actually a sliding scale. The first 2-4 weeks a film is out the studios will keep upwards of 70% of all ticket sales. In the case of a hotly-anticipated film such as a new Batman or Bond, the percentage will go even higher to 80% or above.

      What country does this? When I worked in a theater, we had to bid on films. The bid was a combination of percent of ticket sales (often over 100% for smaller houses) and the number of seats. This is why multiplexes get first run and single screen and twin cinemas get older films. They can't bid enough to get first run because they don't attract enough to fill the seats. Maybe the way films are bid on has changed in the last 15 years, but bidding over 100% of the ticket sales to fill the seats and sell popcorn happened quite often for popular films.

      If something has changed, when did this happen?

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    14. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by The+Ultimate+Fartkno · · Score: 1

      All I know is the US model of business that has developed over the past 10-20 years. Everyone that I know follows the same formula. When the "summer blockbuster" trend came along (I think "Jaws" was the first one) that was what pretty much what cemented the whole business scheme that is still in place. Yes, theatres still have to bid on films, but nationwide theatre chains have been reduced to what concert theatres have been reduced to under Ticketmaster/Nationwide/etc. There's competition, but it's between a tiny number of dominant factions so the "competition" is really just between a few parties that want to keep the pie to themselves. The discount theatres are all chains that fight over the scraps, and some of them make a nice profit doing it.

      As I said, this is just my experience. I don't pretend to speak for the entire business.

    15. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by OberonBob · · Score: 1

      That is not true. Theaters get to keep about half the box office. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_office http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/records/budgets.php

    16. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by rhook · · Score: 1

      They would still need to know the date, time and location the movie was pirated out.

    17. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh never knew that wasn't the norm. Now I do :p

      AC from Chch, NZ

    18. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by crossmr · · Score: 1

      Its the norm in Korea. With exchange right now, ticket price is running around $4.50 USD. Assigned seating (you get to pick off a computer screen which shows already chosen seats) but if it is completely empty usually no one cares where you sit. Though unless you're going to the midnight or 2 am shows, there are usually enough people in the theatre that you should stick to your seat.

      you can get a large popcorn and 2 drinks for another $4.50 USD.

    19. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 2, Funny

      Heh never knew that wasn't the norm. Now I do :p

      AC from Chch, NZ

      Ha! I always wondered where AC was from.

    20. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cash? Which museum did you find that stuff from?

    21. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by skastrik · · Score: 1
      Technically it's an interesting idea. It might even work.

      It should suffice to store photographs of the audience taken during screening. The cameras seem to already be in place, from what I understand. Add audio or visual watermarking for detecting the cinema and time.
      Add automatic facial recognition to the setup, and the guy will be caught next time he goes to such a cinema (or the poor sod who happened to sit beside him at the time of the recording).

      To act as a deterrent, movie goers would have to be aware of the system. But all in all, it would be invisible to the paying customer (apart from the fact that it would go into the ticket price).

    22. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you guess which show the pirates will go to? That's right, those same midnight or 2am ones where nobody cares which seat you are in, assuming there is anyone else even there.

    23. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Spain, "assigned seating" is the most usual, but you're not required to show ID to buy tickets.

      Of course, if there're free seats, you can sit where you want.

    24. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Nick+Ives · · Score: 1

      Seriously, most cinemas round here are so cheap you'd have to just be running late and not had time to hit a machine. Anecdotally, Chip & Pin hasn't done much to reduce to level of card fraud, so most people just pay for small transactions like this in cash.

      --
      Nick
    25. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that is not indicative of the average theatre here in NZ. Sorry :-)

      Most of them cost the same for a "standard" movie theatre, ie. less-than-awesome seats, aisles where people can just squeeze past and the food costs an utter fortune.

      Also, six months ago when our dollar was well up in value against the US, the prices were still the same, so that wouldn't have seemed quite so hot then.

      Assigned seating is fairly common in movie theatres here though. Is it not overseas?

    26. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Repton · · Score: 1

      I live in Wellington, NZ; theatres sometimes do unassigned seating and it's a real pain IMHO. Assigned seating means that if I plan ahead, I can pick up tickets for good seats when there's no queues, and then wander into the theatre 10 minutes after it "started" so that I miss the ads..

      --
      Repton.
      They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.
    27. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by BlackSmithNZ · · Score: 1
      Not entirely indicative of your average NZ theatre, but pretty much most complexes with 2-3 screens will have one that is a little more upmarket - though they cost your US$7 or more. Assigned seating is not actually used; you tend to just sit anywhere as there are normally no ushers inside the theatre

      Nice when watching a movie like James Bond to be able to order a bottle of wine & have it delivered to your seat. ;-)

      Oh, and most theatres are staffed by teenagers on minimum wage; I suspect many cam captures are done by staff or friends of staff 'after hours'. The classic digital problem remains; you only need one movie, displayed anywhere in the world without protection and it makes every other theatre's protection & tracking of suspects/customers useless.

      How likely is it that they can track everybody, all the time?

    28. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Korea theaters have assigned seating. No ID required but then... perhaps if you payed with a card.

    29. Re:Another reason not to go to the theatre by Alsee · · Score: 1

      I went to New Zealand last year and went to a movie in Christchurch. It was a pretty odd experience. It had assigned seating.

      We tried that in the US, but it was really unpleasant and the movies all started hours late.

      The TSA guys checking tickets kept forcing women to put all their makeup in a 1 quart plastic bag.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  3. so what? by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you don't know who sat in which seat on what showing on what date, knowing which seat a video was shot from isn't going to help you.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    1. Re:so what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Usually you won't even have a list of names of everyone there (you're going to get ID for every ticket purchase now?). And is there any real chance that the accuracy is provably high enough for this to stand up in court?

      The whole thing is silly and pointless.

    2. Re:so what? by dbcad7 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's another variable as well.. what theater.. of which there is no standard design.

      And even if they somehow manage to determine who was sitting in that seat, in that theater, at that time, on that date.. Id imagine any lawyer worth a damn would get someone off by forcing a plaintiff to prove things like that the projector was calibrated, and the method used for calibrating.

      --
      waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
    3. Re:so what? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Agreed. Movie theatre tickets are not even assigned by seats like a sporting event. Theatre owners probably sell 80-90% of their tickets as cash transactions, no ID, no credit card. But even if you paid for seat with a credit card, in which case they would know who they sold they ticket to, the seats aren't assigned -- you could sit anywhere in the theatre so they can know where you sat, but not who sat there or even which movie theatre the movie was shot in.

      And if they did start requiring IDs and assigning seats, well, let's just say movie theatres won't be getting my business anyway. I won't put up with that when I can purchase the movie and own my own copy for what it costs to go to movie theatre these days.

      Besides, most pirated movies aren't shot with digicam these days, they're pirated from DVDs, BDs, etc.

    4. Re:so what? by dissy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you don't know who sat in which seat on what showing on what date, knowing which seat a video was shot from isn't going to help you.

      And you have just pointed out step 2 in their plan to ruin the movie theater experience, or stop piracy, whichever comes first.

      Don't be shocked once metal detectors, checking in your cell phone at the lobby to get back after the movie, and numbered on ticket seating.

      Of course, when nearly anyone wants to put up with that crap, the loss in sales to their annoying practices will be blamed on even more piracy.

      Good riddance to them

    5. Re:so what? by maxume · · Score: 2

      Theater owners don't have any particular reason to care all that about piracy. They won't install metal detectors or ask you to check your phone.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    6. Re:so what? by timothy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I like US-style non-assigned seats. But I just took a trip to Israel, and the theater at which I saw Slumdog Millionaire (packed!) assigned seats, and it was actually good in one way -- the people you're squashing on the way to your seat have less growling resentment when they know you're trampling them only to get to the seat you've been assigned, rather than because you're an idiot ;)

      timothy

      --
      jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
    7. Re:so what? by Da+Cheez · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And you have just pointed out step 2 in their plan to ruin the movie theater experience, or stop piracy, whichever comes first.

      Don't be shocked once metal detectors, checking in your cell phone at the lobby to get back after the movie, and numbered on ticket seating.

      Of course, when nearly anyone wants to put up with that crap, the loss in sales to their annoying practices will be blamed on even more piracy.

      Good riddance to them

      Doing that sort of thing would just make people who don't ordinarily pirate movies anyway just stop coming to the theatre and start pirating just to avoid all that stuff.

    8. Re:so what? by Vectronic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And some more variables:

      Audio quality of the recording device (low, mono, parity, etc)
      Audio alignment, what happens of you offset the audio track post-recording even by 20ms, that could be like 10 seats away, you'd have to haul in like a 10x10 grid of people, analyze all their potential "devices", try and get 100 warrants for something so trivial.

      Seems like a more accurate way would be to implant an assortment of detectors in each seat, scouting for magnetic interference or something, and even that would cause havoc in accuracy and false positives.

      To me this stinks of pointless scare tactics which will only thwart off idiots. Option B: strip search everyone who enters, only consequence: 95% of people stop seeing movies in theaters, and just wait for someone to rip the DVD.

    9. Re:so what? by LoadWB · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Seconded. I started downloading movies so I did not have to listen to Manny talk about why downloading movies is bad. Aside from that, I am not thrilled at all to pay $9.25 to watch 10 minutes of commercials.

    10. Re:so what? by mpe · · Score: 1

      If you don't know who sat in which seat on what showing on what date, knowing which seat a video was shot from isn't going to help you.

      It will tell you where the microphone used to record the sound was. An obvious subversion method would be to put a classic "bug" on an empty seat. You might also need to have a cloakroom since it's no doubt possible that a jacket draped over an unoccupied seat could contain some kind of AV recorder :)

    11. Re:so what? by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      However, the people who supply the movies do, and if they'd like to keep getting those pretty moving pictures every few weeks they'll have to comply.

    12. Re:so what? by Gothic_Walrus · · Score: 1

      Those kind of practices would just lead to even more people who wouldn't bother with theaters at all, choosing to buy or rent movies and watch them at home.

      --
      Goo goo g'joob.
    13. Re:so what? by gwait · · Score: 1

      How on earth is this post rated Flamebait???

      Slashdot could be so much better..

      --
      Bavarian Purity Law of Rice Krispie Squares: Rice Krispies, Marshmallows, Butter, Vanilla.
    14. Re:so what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems like a more accurate way would be to implant an assortment of detectors in each seat, scouting for magnetic interference or something, and even that would cause havoc in accuracy and false positives.

      Nah, just send out a big blast of EMP every few minutes.

    15. Re:so what? by maxume · · Score: 1

      It's a two way relationship. Theater owners will simply close down if the studios try to impose too much stupid.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    16. Re:so what? by timothy · · Score: 1

      I dunno -- nothing flamebaity about it from my side :)

      Choosing a seat in a U.S. movie theater is annoying sometimes because of the islands of empty seats blocked by people who don't seem eager to let you by them -- but they chose to sit in a spot where people will have to pass them to get to the empty seats!

      The theater where I saw "Slumdog" I think might have been grandfathered out of any recent requirements as to seat / aisle spacing, too -- the rows were very close together, and I was glad no one yelled "Fire!" Would have been hard to get out. (The place was quite old, and this made it actually sort of quaint, but I would not want to sit in those seats very often.)

      timothy

      --
      jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
    17. Re:so what? by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 1

      If you don't know who sat in which seat on what showing on what date, knowing which seat a video was shot from isn't going to help you.

      Dunno, maybe it will help those watching the cam video know if it's good quality and centered or not.

    18. Re:so what? by cervo · · Score: 1

      I for one would love it if all those pesky people who like to chat on their cell phones in the middle of the movie can no longer do it due to it being checked in. Basically that is why I don't like to go to movies. If it's not some loud mouth talking on the phone it is some obnoxious kid text messaging his/her friends with a super bright screen that keeps drawing your eyes. I say check the darn things in.

    19. Re:so what? by tkw954 · · Score: 1

      And if they did start requiring IDs and assigning seats, well, let's just say movie theatres won't be getting my business anyway.

      Last night I saw "Watchmen" and they did both. In Auckland, a lot of the theaters are assigned seating, and, since it was a restricted movie, they were ID-ing people at the entrance. Mind you, they weren't correlating the seats with the ID (or ID-ing everyone), but it wouldn't be a very large step.

    20. Re:so what? by illegalcortex · · Score: 1

      Do you actually believe that? The theater will only close down if they are forced to by dwindling revenue. Owners of mega-chains don't give a fuck about the actual moviegoing experience. They simply care about the bottom line. As such, they're not going to intentionally lower their bottom line to zero.

    21. Re:so what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uhhh, last time I checked, they didn't check to see if you were circumsized or not at the Israeli customs before you could enter the country. But even if Timothy was Jewish, who the fuck cares?

    22. Re:so what? by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      Actually it would be pretty much impossible to forge your location.

      The offset is measured relative of each of the channels so determining which pattern was from which speaker would require reconstructing each individual channel of the 7.1 mix. Which is borderline impossile, especially when recorded with a stereo mic.

    23. Re:so what? by Splab · · Score: 1

      As a sibling pointed out the pinpoint is going to be fairly accurate, 44 cm. radius will however hit 9 people in a packed cinema.

      However, if you got 3 screenings a day and a movie running for a month you need to pickup 3*9*30 people to figure out who might have recorded it (ok, they can eliminate some days if it is published before the movie is taken off) - unless of course they have a method of figuring out what day it was.

      But the metal detecting thing has already begun, for some screenings you aren't allowed to bring mobile phones and you can actually be picked out to be frisked for mobile phones - this alone has caused me to stop going to the cinemas.

    24. Re:so what? by smallfries · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Numbered seating isn't all that bad. I've been to cinemas where they do, and where they don't. Cinemas without preassigned seating never get completely full, because people don't like to choose a seat next to a strange when another seat is available. So you end up with "holes" of 1-2 seats between each group that are hard to fill. With assigned seating it is usual (for a popular film) for every seat to go.

      I'm used to cinemas without assigned seating, but on the few times that I've been to cinemas that assign first the atmosphere has been better. In terms of catching people with camcorders, as other people have pointed out if you paid cash then it won't help at all.

      On the cellphones, one of your other replies moaned about people using cellphones in movies. That must be a cultural difference. In the uk answering a mobile phone during a film would be a lynching offence. I've seen people try it, and an entire cinema full of people baying for their blood.

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    25. Re:so what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude. It's a research paper. Just tossing up some ideas, that might find use in any number of applications in the future. No-one said that anyone was actually planning to implement it in cinemas tomorrow.

    26. Re:so what? by maxume · · Score: 1

      I believe that something like half of people would stop going to movies if those conditions were imposed. Probably more. That isn't going to be good for revenues.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    27. Re:so what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Timothy X. Ergo did what?

    28. Re:so what? by BLKMGK · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, perfect! When the babysitter calls to tell some parent Junior has had an accident and is on the way to the hospital or "where's the eppy pen he's having a reaction" and the silly thing is buzzing in a locker what do you think will happen? Even if the chance is remote parents avoid risk like the plague these days and won't want to be out of touch like that - sales will dwindle.

      I put my phone on vibrate and I don't text in the theater but if an emergency arises I'll go out in the hall to take the call. I'll be damned if I am going to check in my phone and have to wait in line to get it on the way out like I do a urinal or risk some dumbass stealing it. I barely goto the theater now due to high prices, this would push me over the edge as would assigned seating or ID checking.

      For the cost of a trip to the movies I can BUY a DVD and come pretty close to buying a BD version. I can EASILY rent\rip for less and I'm willing to wait for movies to come out on disk. I have a decent TV and speakers for a reason - the dumbass studios have made it more cost effective and convenient!

      Think about it - a couple of parents decide to take their kid to even a matinee and the cost is nutz. If they have more than one kid and goto a prime time movie they will have paid as much for that trip and crappy food as they would a high def version for their own library. Movie theaters cannot survive like this forever and making the trip even LESS convenient is a stupid idea. Sue the wrong person just once and watch the fireworks splash back on them. Idiots....

      Ya' know - there was a time when I'd goto a theater and see a movie more than once because it was good. I cannot recall a time in the past 15 years when I've been willing to do that and the numbers of movies I'm willing to pay a mint for is so low now it's not even funny. The studios are full of asshats.

      --
      Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
    29. Re:so what? by sloepoke51 · · Score: 1

      So if the movie theater takes a picture of the patron when paying for the movie, then once or twice during the movie, takes a picture of the audience during some bright scene, and then uses the audio watermark to identify the camcorder, then they would have a picture of the thief. Then they could deny that person, from entering the theater in the future.

    30. Re:so what? by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      The only idiot in that scenario is the person who expected people to give him "personal space" at the expense of taking a worse seat. I don't really give two shits about such expectations, because they're just a fantasy. I bathe, I hold my farts in, and I don't talk during a movie, and by God if the choice is between me craning my neck in the front row, or walking in front of you to get to a decent seat, I'm walking in front of you. And if you have one open seat on either side of you and I'm with someone else, I'll ask you to move down as well, because if you weren't an asshat, you would've volunteered to scoot over in the first place.

  4. why? by kylemonger · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've always wondered why the movie studios care about catching these people. These bootlegs are the worst quality you can find and anyone who would knowingly buy them would never be a customer anyway.

    1. Re:why? by knightshire · · Score: 1

      Actually the only reason someone would download these bootlegs (and not wait for the better quality uploads) is because he is because he's a big fan and can't wait for the release. Considering the delays between the releases in different areas.

    2. Re:why? by McBeer · · Score: 1

      I've always wondered why the movie studios care about catching these people. These bootlegs are the worst quality you can find and anyone who would knowingly buy them would never be a customer anyway.

      You're wrong on two accounts. First, many theater cams are actually quite good. Sure no digital surround sound and its a bit grainy on a 60 inch tv, but never the less perfectly watchable. Second, assuming that 100 downloads translates into 0 lost sales is just as silly as the when the RIAA assumes 100 downloads translates into 100 lost sales. It all depends on the price elasticity for a particular item.

      --
      Hikery.net - The best hiking site ever. Made by yours truly.
    3. Re:why? by j_sp_r · · Score: 1

      It all depends if the movie sucks or if people want to see it another time.

    4. Re:why? by itsdapead · · Score: 1

      Second, assuming that 100 downloads translates into 0 lost sales is just as silly as the when the RIAA assumes 100 downloads translates into 100 lost sales.

      The tricky question is, which is it closest to?

      Obviously, a fair proportion of downloaders will just be "leeching" - but equally, some of them will be serious fans who are going to go to the theater when it comes out anyway, and buy the DVD, buy the special edition DVD, the director's cut CD, the collectable action figures and would buy the Blu-ray if they didn't believe the system was hobbled with DRM.

      Then you have to think about downloaders who might not buy that particular movie/album but will still spend the money they save on movies games or music, and the people who don't download, but won't go to the theater if they're treated like potential thieves and won't buy the DVD if they can't rip it to watch on their iPod.

      Now, I don't happen to have the data to back up those theories - trouble is, data costs money and most of the "research" money is coming from the movie/recording industry and DRM snakeoil merchants. These are the people who insist on a "no skip" facilities on DVD players so that they can ensure that we read the important legal messages and then use it to force us to watch trailers for movies that were "coming soon" when we bought the DVD 3 years ago...

      Here's an exercise: look at your "legal" music collection (be it CDs, Vinyl, Cassette*, iTunes etc.) and ask yourself - how many of those would you never have bought if your friend hadn't given you that first C90* or MP3?

      (* I did acquire a few pre-recorded cassettes before I learned that they were apparently recorded on Scotch adhesive tape sprinkled with rust using a Fisher Price 'my first cassette player': mostly, the boxes now contain home-taped copies of the CD, the original having jammed solid).

      --
      In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
  5. What good does this do? by Aranykai · · Score: 0, Redundant

    If you know what seat they are in days after they filmed it and released it, what good does it really do you? Ive never seen a theater with assigned seating before.

    --
    If sharing a song makes you a pirate, what do I have to share to be a ninja?
    1. Re:What good does this do? by 1729 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you know what seat they are in days after they filmed it and released it, what good does it really do you? Ive never seen a theater with assigned seating before.

      This might be useful for tracking down unauthorized recordings obtained during pre-release screenings.

    2. Re:What good does this do? by zarkzervo · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't know about USA, but here in Norway, only the smallest cinemas don't have assigned seating. I really like this because you can buy tickets on the internet and pick them up 5 minutes before the start of a premiere and get the best seat in the cinema. If there is no good seats left, I'll wait until the day after.

      --
      Insert `fortune -o` here
    3. Re:What good does this do? by Hadlock · · Score: 4, Informative

      Prerelease screenings are complete clusterfucks. I've seen security people come up into the projection booth to make sure you're not telesyncing, and security people with hand held metal dectectors for video cameras, etc but there's absolutely no assigned seating, except maybe the first or second rows of the stadium seating (below that are the nosebleed floorseating) for the director and PR people. Most tickets are free and to top that off, most (modern) movie theaters don't even have seat numbers. Hell ask a theater employee and you're lucky if they can tell you within 100 seats how many people each theater seats.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    4. Re:What good does this do? by garcia · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This might be useful for tracking down unauthorized recordings obtained during pre-release screenings.

      Or it might be another scare tactic attempted by the MPAA to stop piracy of their movies--just like the stupid pat downs by goons in maroon jackets wielding hand-held metal detectors. Yeah, those are my keys and that's my mobile phone. No, I don't plan on recording the movie with Qik and no the offer of a free movie isn't worth you searching me more thoroughly off to the side. I'm just as happy to leave and not watch your shitty fucking movie ahead of time and instead wait for the free rental through Redbox and the associated websites which give me free rentals.

      The movies used to be a place where I enjoyed relaxing for 2.5 hours. Between the high prices (even during matinees) and the gestapo bullshit at the prereleases, it's like going to the airport at Thanksgiving. While I don't bother to pirate movies anymore I might start to again just to piss the cocksuckers off.

    5. Re:What good does this do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In general, except for releases that sell out theatres and special screenings, seat assignments are either not given or not even suggested to be enforced at US cinemas. Seats do generally have numbers and many theatres will print a seat number on a ticket, but they generally only enforce these for when they need to fill every seat.

    6. Re:What good does this do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Karma, serius business.

    7. Re:What good does this do? by morcego · · Score: 2, Insightful

      While I don't bother to pirate movies anymore I might start to again just to piss the cocksuckers off.

      You raise a valid point there. I also went through that progression: Movie watching (DVD/Theaters) -> Pirate Movies -> Almost no movies

      I also know a lot of people who pretty much stopped watching movies these days.

      It is really sad. Between all the DRM bullshit (including those warning screens that you "can't" skip), and the overall quality of movies (or lack of), it is simply not worth anymore. I mean, what are the odds a random movie will be good ? 0.1% ?

      --
      morcego
    8. Re:What good does this do? by jaminJay · · Score: 1

      It's funny.

      Here in Australia, all seats I've ever seen are numbered and at least one of the major cinema chains (BCC) does 'preferred seating', where you select what seat you want before getting to the room and finding someone else already sitting there.

      Also, every time I've ever asked (at any cinema/chain), I'm told exactly how many seats have been sold and how many are left. And now my parking is linked to ensure I've watched the whole movie and haven't just bought a ticket to save $30 on parking!

      --
      Leela: "Is all the work done by children?" Alien: "No, not the whipping."
    9. Re:What good does this do? by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      I'd say the majority of movie theaters in the US aren't downtown and are not subject to parking shortages. Here in the US people just show up 30-45 minutes early if they want good seats.
       
        every time I've ever asked (at any cinema/chain), I'm told exactly how many seats have been sold and how many are left That's because they're staring at the screen which has that relevant info presented right there. Take them away from them and they can probably tell you what the largest and smallest theaters are in the complex but not the number of seats. I have our company's phone # taped to the side of my monitor and probably repeat it 2-3 times a day but for the life of me I couldn't tell it to you off hand from memory other than it's a 1-800 number.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    10. Re:What good does this do? by jaminJay · · Score: 1

      Forget where I heard this one, but:

      One third of the traffic in a city is searching for a place to park.

      --
      Leela: "Is all the work done by children?" Alien: "No, not the whipping."
    11. Re:What good does this do? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Prerelease screenings are complete clusterfucks. I've seen security people come up into the projection booth to make sure you're not telesyncing, and security people with hand held metal dectectors for video cameras, etc

      Why would anyone cam a screener? AFAIK, no one has and never will. The quality would be the same as a post-release, or possibly worse, but with greater risk and consequences if caught. It would be a complete waste of time, effort, resources, etc.

      That's why screeners are ripped from the DVDs.

    12. Re:What good does this do? by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      Most pre-release screenings I've done were on 35mm film, either for film critics or test audiences. We got a borked copy of Opal Dreams once and had to run the DVD screener on a DLP projector, but for the most part prerelease screenINGS are completely different from screenERS

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    13. Re:What good does this do? by WNight · · Score: 1

      haven't just bought a ticket to save $30 on parking!

      That can't be right. Parking costs WHAT?

      Okay, the business model is to buy tickets to movies, pay bums $10 to watch the movie, and resell the parking spaces.

    14. Re:What good does this do? by jaminJay · · Score: 1

      Cut out the middle man:

      1. Get movie ticket (about $7).
      2. Note end time.
      3. Tear off ticket stub.
      4. ???
      5. Return at end time and join queue of people leaving cinema.
      6. Validate parking.
      7. Profit.
      --
      Leela: "Is all the work done by children?" Alien: "No, not the whipping."
    15. Re:What good does this do? by WNight · · Score: 1

      Well, not having a car I'm more interested in the profit as the middleman... :)

      But that was my way of questioning the parking costs in your post. Save $30?! Like three times ten? Wow.

  6. so by Keebler71 · · Score: 1

    um...and they are going to use this info how exactly? Last time I checked I didn't have an assigned seat at the theater.

    --
    "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
    1. Re:so by glitch23 · · Score: 1

      um...and they are going to use this info how exactly? Last time I checked I didn't have an assigned seat at the theater.

      The submission regarding Carmike/Hollywood/etc. movie theaters rolling out pilot programs involving assigned seats hasn't been approved yet. Wait for it...wait for it.

      --
      this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
  7. This bodes well by Bandman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Am I going to get treated like I do by the airlines every time I want to watch a movie?

    In order for this to track us at all, we'd need an ID to buy a ticket, need to show ID to get into the theater, have assigned seats, and they would have to change the audio slightly on every showing.

    Maybe I'll just stay home and download them instead...

    1. Re:This bodes well by spud603 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Maybe I'll just stay home and download them instead...

      Aha! but you won't be able to download them because the scumbag who would have distributed it is locked up.
      With movie pirating completely eliminated, you'll have to go see it in the theater even if they require finger prints and a urine test.

    2. Re:This bodes well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In order for you to be able to download them at home, some other dude needs to go and be treated like in the airlines... :-)

      Of course most movies you can download aren't pirated from the screen anyways (for the love of god, who'd want to watch that abysmal quality anyways), but rather from DVDs when those come out. By the point they do, movie producers already made the vast majority of their profits (ticket sales vastly outweigh DVD revenue), which makes the whole **AA point of online sharing totally destroying their business oh so deliciously ironic. About the only people who make use of screen captures are people who post short snippets to youtube and such, which (assuming the movie is good) should make people want to go see the full thing MORE and not less... Of course this doesn't compute in the heads of record execs.

    3. Re:This bodes well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only that, but 44 centimeters covers at least 2 or 3 seats in all directions. That means even if they know who sat where, they're going to have to investigate everyone in the vicinity. That means if I happen to sit near a bootlegger I suddenly become a suspect.

      Ugh, no thanks. I'll stay home and wait for the DVD.

    4. Re:This bodes well by Samschnooks · · Score: 1
      You forgot the house cameras that will tape everyone and where they're sitting. There will also be infrared cameras to make sure no one moves and if they do, theater security will interrogate them.

      After all, this is America: of the **AA, for the **AA, by the **AA ... or for the lobbyists for that matter.

      I'm really getting cynical in my old age!

    5. Re:This bodes well by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Or just wait for it to come out on DVD, and then get a DVDRIP...
      In fact, depending where you live you might be able to download a foreign DVDRip long before it even comes on at the local cinema.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    6. Re:This bodes well by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In order for this to track us at all, we'd need an ID to buy a ticket, need to show ID to get into the theater, have assigned seats, and they would have to change the audio slightly on every showing.

      No, the theater industry will implant a life-long RFID tracking device in your neck, like in "Escape From New York." When you enter the theater, all your movements will be tracked, and you are ok.

      However, if you do not renew the lease on the implant often enough, the device will explode, blowing your head off. Just like in "Escape From New York."

      Please go out to the lobby, and buy some popcorn . . . and we mean that seriously. Thank you, enjoy the film.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    7. Re:This bodes well by Bandman · · Score: 1

      You don't, by chance, work in software licensing, do you?

    8. Re:This bodes well by dcollins · · Score: 1

      No, the theater industry will implant a life-long RFID tracking device in your neck, like in "Escape From New York." When you enter the theater, all your movements will be tracked, and you are ok.

      This literally sent a shiver down my spine, because at this point I don't see any limits on our surveillance society, and this seems all-too-likely to be real some day. (Minus, perhaps, the "kill switch" for people's heads. Car analogy works differently here, though.)

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    9. Re:This bodes well by westlake · · Score: 2, Interesting
      In order for this to track us at all, we'd need an ID to buy a ticket, need to show ID to get into the theater, have assigned seats, and they would have to change the audio slightly on every showing.

      This sounds pretty much like buying tickets to a live performance.

      A night out with the kids.

      Harry Potter without waiting in line.

      Reserved lounge seating at the restored Art Deco era Riviera.

      The cinema for grown-ups.

      I could live with that.

    10. Re:This bodes well by mpe · · Score: 1

      In fact, depending where you live you might be able to download a foreign DVDRip long before it even comes on at the local cinema.

      The DVDs may even have been produced before the "release date". The factory pressing the DVDs is unlikely to disrupt their schedule if some actor can't make it to the "premiere".

    11. Re:This bodes well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and who pays for the technology? Tickets will be $20 each instead of just $11.50. Raisinettes, $50.

    12. Re:This bodes well by __aailrp9629 · · Score: 1

      Maybe this is meant for preview screenings and the like where people already have to provide ID and there aren't really all that many showings to track.

    13. Re:This bodes well by westlake · · Score: 1
      and who pays for the technology? Tickets will be $20 each instead of just $11.50. Raisinettes, $50.

      The audience, as always.

      In 1914 Henry Ford began paying $5 a day to his assembly-line workers. Tickets for the first run of D.W. Griffith's 1915 "Birth of a Nation" sold for $2.

    14. Re:This bodes well by ameoba · · Score: 1

      Isn't the standard line that "nothing good is coming from Hollywood anyways"? It's not like you need to watch new movies to be entertained. A quick look at Netflix shows that they have "over 100,000 titles". Doing some quick math shows that you could watch 2 movies a day for the next 136 years without relying on anything new.

      --
      my sig's at the bottom of the page.
  8. Just wondering. by liquidMONKEY · · Score: 1

    Why not just link the original post from TorrentFreak? "Brief mention on Google News of a story covered by PC Authority of a post at TorrentFreak, that killed the rat, that ate the malt, that lay in the house that Jack built."

  9. Sign EULA before buying ticket? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought they wanted more people to watch movies, not scare them away by requiring people to sign an EULA when they buy tickets.
    How else would this invention be useful if they didn't know the exact person which was seated in that particular seat?

  10. And the point is ? by Going_Digital · · Score: 1

    What exactly will that achieve ? Since when did you need to give proof of identity to get in, oh wait that will be the next thing that MPAA lobbies for. Movie Identity cards, we welcome our new entertainment overlords.

    1. Re:And the point is ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      What exactly will that achieve ? Since when did you need to give proof of identity to get in, oh wait that will be the next thing that MPAA lobbies for. Movie Identity cards, we welcome our new entertainment overlords.

      This is already in place in Sweden, except they call it "cinema club" cards or whatever. A small discount to movies, in exchange for assigned seating and a known identity.

      I have never understood why they want to treat a paying customer as a potential criminal. If I wanted to download, I would not be paying for the movie. Treat me like a queen when I pay and I am more likely to pay again.

  11. And what's to stop pirates... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From recording audio and video in separate and then joining them together?

    Recording video is the hard part, since you have to position the camera to stare at the screen continuously, and exposed to being noticed; the only way you can do that (unless you have inside connections) is from the movie seat for which you bought the ticket. An audio bug, however, can be planted virtually anywhere in the room, does not have to stare the screen, does not have to be exposed to sight, and can be small enough to literaly be stuck on top of a pin which you stick somewhere unconspicuous. So while audio signals may help you to figure where the signal originated from, its offset by being much harder to tie that signal to any particular person.

    1. Re:And what's to stop pirates... by n0dna · · Score: 1

      They already do that. It's called a TeleSync release.

    2. Re:And what's to stop pirates... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "So which seat is the pirate in?"

      "Uh, he's up against the wall, sir."

      "Which wall?"

      "Both of them - and he alternates every 7 seconds."

  12. Assigned Seats by ericspinder · · Score: 1

    So, they will be assigning seats in the theater? Or are they just planning on using 'Wanted Posters' for these lawbreakers?

    --
    The grass is only greener, if you don't take care of your own lawn.
    1. Re:Assigned Seats by kasperd · · Score: 1

      Some of us live in a part of the world where we actually take assigned seats for granted. I actually like being able to see beforehand in which location I will be sitting so I can decide whether I want to buy that ticket or not. It must really suck to buy a ticket not knowing which seat you will get - I mean who wants to buy a ticket and then end up in the worst seat in the cinema?

      When I buy tickets I usually pay with card, so yes it would in theory be possible to track down which seat I was sitting at. But you know often I go to the cinema together with friends, and usually one person pays all the tickets, so in that case you really won't know who was in what seat. Besides, unless they manage to fill the cinema, they can't be sure people are actually sitting on exactly the seat which they bought. It does sometimes happen that somebody reserves the best seats and don't show up. In that case usually somebody else will be sitting there rather than in the seats they reserved themselves. There really isn't much of a chance of knowing.

      I like going to the cinema (I actually just came back from Men who hates women aka The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo), and I will probably keep going. If this kind of watermarking starts taking off I might start paying cash, just to avoid any false accusations (I don't trust their accuracy). But if they start annoying paying customers too much in their attempt to fight piracy, I might stop going.

      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
  13. Can this really work? by Banzai042 · · Score: 1

    I'm somewhat skeptical that this could even work for a few reasons:
    1) How can they alter the sound so that a camera with a cheap mic can pick up the sound accurately enough for this to work without making it sound worse for the audience?

    2) Even if they do somehow make the seat location ID work how will they know who sat there? Unless they assign seats and get the name of each person in the theater this is pretty useless

    3) How will they know which theater the movie was filmed at, or which screen in the theater, or which time on that screen? Will every single individual screening have a different audio watermark?

    1. Re:Can this really work? by Gyga · · Score: 1

      1) They care about the audience?

      2)Finally a new use for fake IDs for people over 21 years old.

      3)Every theater probably will get its own watermark, digital projectors could probably add a new one with each showing.

      --
      I don't preview or spellcheck.
    2. Re:Can this really work? by bami · · Score: 1

      To comment on 2):
      Finally a use for my fake ID that says "Dan Glickman".

    3. Re:Can this really work? by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      I'm somewhat skeptical that this could even work for a few reasons

      Notice that both the original linked article and the TorrentFreak original were very light on detail as to how this actually works and how effective it is in practice?

      They could be playing up the effectiveness of a technology that's actually not that great in practice or- at worst- is totally made up, but a good way to scare people off.

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    4. Re:Can this really work? by spazdor · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they forgot the one damn thing about watermarking: either the signal can't be watermarked without audible artifacts, or else the wartermark can be removed without any.

      There's no middle ground. They might as well declare war on the Nyquist-Shannon theorem.

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    5. Re:Can this really work? by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      They might as well declare war on the Nyquist-Shannon theorem.

      Is it a weapon of mass reproduction?

    6. Re:Can this really work? by Garridan · · Score: 1

      1) The better quality the recording, the more they care. Also, even crappy microphones pick up noises whose frequency and duration are out of human hearing range.

      2) Easy. Mandatory RFID in every state-issued ID card + RFID reader in every seat.

      3) You answered it yourself. You can fit a helluva lot of data into a watermark over the course of a 90-minute movie.

    7. Re:Can this really work? by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      3)Every theater probably will get its own watermark, digital projectors could probably add a new one with each showing.

      They've been doing this for a while. It's specific to each reel, of which there's 4-8 reels in a film depending on a variety of factors. It's been getting a lot worse since 2006 or so.
       
      The worst part is, once you know about it, it's impossible to miss.
       
      .

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    8. Re:Can this really work? by mpe · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they forgot the one damn thing about watermarking: either the signal can't be watermarked without audible artifacts, or else the wartermark can be removed without any.
      There's no middle ground. They might as well declare war on the Nyquist-Shannon theorem.


      "They" have already done this with DRM, which requires magic. Possibly these people honestly believe that "Hollywood physics" applies in the real world. However the inaudible and unremovable "audio watermark" idea may not be suitable for Mythbusters.

    9. Re:Can this really work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's actually a relatively simple technique that has been used for eons. Echolocation. Except, in this instance, rather than finding the source of an echo, they find the destination of an emitted sound, They will likely send a beat at a frequency *generally* outside the human hearing range, but still within the pickup sensitivity for the mic (this will likely drive people who can hear very high pitched noises and dogs crazy). First, send a beat sequence (the sequence is the ID) at the same time through both speakers. Next, do the same but with the left speaker playing the sound just before the right speaker. Next, the same, but right before left. Wash, rinse, repeat. Throughout an entire screening you should be able to send enough different temporal differentials between the two points and to cancel out ghosting and enough at the same time to get the id. Note that left/right will likely use different frequencies or different codes so that a single microphone (monophonic) can be pinpointed. It's simple physics.

  14. Remote microphones by 1729 · · Score: 4, Informative

    While this sounds cool from a technical perspective, it would be easy to circumvent by plugging a remote microphone into the camera.

    Also, wouldn't the accuracy of this depend on the theater's dimensions and acoustics as well as the layout/calibration of the speaker system?

    1. Re:Remote microphones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wouldn't the accuracy of this depend on the theater's dimensions and acoustics as well as the layout/calibration of the speaker system?

      Not to mention the off-axis response of the microphone, the number of people in the auditorium and effects of lossy audio compression. I guess you could vary the offset on each channel of audio on the timeline to further screw with whatever analytics they're doing, from what I've seen (and heard) most encoders do this automatically anyway :-/

    2. Re:Remote microphones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Don't even need a remote mic, just sit in the handicapped enabled seat that has a mic jack for headphones. as an added bonus your .CAM just became a .TELESYNC

    3. Re:Remote microphones by Angst+Badger · · Score: 1

      Also, wouldn't the accuracy of this depend on the theater's dimensions and acoustics as well as the layout/calibration of the speaker system?

      Less than you'd think, though it certainly would require some calibration (and ongoing periodic recalibration). The main problem, as everyone and their brother has noted, is that it doesn't do you any good to know where the bootlegger was sitting unless you know who was sitting where.

      It seems to me that it would be a lot more useful to simply detect the RF emissions from camcorders, provided you could reliably distinguish them from cell phones, iPods, Blackberrys, and the plethora of other small electronics that people are increasingly carrying.

      If you want to make a bunch of money, though, it really doesn't matter if it works or not. All that's important is that you can convince the dipshits who write the checks for the MPAA that it does. Look at how much money various companies have made from selling ineffective antipiracy schemes to the music and software industries. And, at the end of the day, would you really feel bad about cheating the MPAA?

      --
      Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
    4. Re:Remote microphones by jaminJay · · Score: 1

      Couldn't they just work it out by the number of heads between the camera and the screen, or how far the early-leavers have to walk to get to the exit?!

      --
      Leela: "Is all the work done by children?" Alien: "No, not the whipping."
    5. Re:Remote microphones by LordKronos · · Score: 1

      I would think sitting in the handicapped seat and plugging into the mic jack would make it EASIER for them to identify where you were sitting, not harder.

    6. Re:Remote microphones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume each system would be calibrated and tested individually.

  15. Point? by the_enigma_1983 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    What's the point to this? Unless I'm mistaken (and I did RTFA), they will only be able to work out where the person sat if they listen to the recording. That means either a) they've already caught them, or b) they've managed to leave the cinema, go home, compress and upload the film. Do cinemas in the US record full ID of every person attending, including what seat they sat at?

  16. Night vision snaps. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's only a matter of time before cinema owners are forced by the big studios to start taking night vision snaps of movie-going audiences before every screening.

    We dread to think what else they might catch going on in the dark.

    Assuming I have drunk enough beer by the time we hit the cinema they'll catch a fine snap of my naked buttocks and those of half a dozen of my friends pointed in the direction of their camera.

  17. Just change seats by Nutsquasher · · Score: 1

    Hack this by changing seats a few times during the movie. Or, slip someone in the movie theater $100 so you can go up into the projector room and film it there... "Our watermarking technology has determined that the movie pirate is... the projector!"

    1. Re:Just change seats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      multiple wireless mics on confederates switched at random, none of which are where the camcorder is. You could even employ some clever audio processing to create a virtual microphone at where the RIAA guy sits . . . .

    2. Re:Just change seats by spazdor · · Score: 1

      "Our watermarking technology has determined that the movie pirate is... the projector!"

      Correct me if I`m wrong, but in that scenario the projectionist gets fired for piracy and/or accepting bribes, and that`s exactly what`s supposed to have happened...

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    3. Re:Just change seats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I`m wrong

      You see that key with an apostrophe on it? See that key with the grave accent on it?

      They aren't the same.

    4. Re:Just change seats by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Or, slip someone in the movie theater $100 so you can go up into the projector room and film it there... "Our watermarking technology has determined that the movie pirate is... the projector!"

      I'm sure they would like to find something like that out. It would tell them little if they found that the movie was filmed from the 17th row back, 3rd seat right of the middle, but if they find that the theatre employees are in on it, they stand a much better chance of catching the people they are trying to nail.

  18. Seems a little silly to me by SIR_Taco · · Score: 1

    The real question is why? It's not going to help.

    I would think having a nice big Infra-red spotlight above the screen pointed at the audience would be a better deterrent. Of course this may put crazy people like this out of business. It's just a risk we'll have to take.

    --
    I say don't drink and drive, you might spill your drink. Before you get behind the wheel just stop and think.
  19. And who cares, anyway? by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

    What proportion of pirated movies are from in-theater cameras? I suspect it's minuscule, even if it seems to get a lot of attention. The video and audio quality must be way below DVDrip level, using any kind of equipment that can be "sneaked" into a theater.

    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    1. Re:And who cares, anyway? by maeka · · Score: 4, Informative

      What proportion of pirated movies are from in-theater cameras?

      Well, outside of Oscar season the percentage of early-run pirated movies which are from in-theater cameras approaches 100%.
      CAM shots (normally hand-held camera and the camera's microphone (which is what this procedure would target)) are often first, and I have seen plenty of bootleg DVDs which are this.
      TeleSyncs often (but not always) come second. (Sometimes they hit the scene first.) They are normally tripod-mounted cameras and patch-in for the audio (hard of hearing feed, or direct feed if in the projection booth.) These would also qualify as in-theater cameras, though this technology presumably would not affect them, as the time-delay measurement-from-known-speaker-positions-technique would not apply.
      Again, I have seen plenty of bootleg DVDs which are from this source.

      It is true that DVD rips are the gold standard of "pirated" movies, but it is quite common for those to be the third or fourth release (after TeleCines or R5s or Screeners sometimes.)

      I guess my point is that in-theater-camera releases may not be the most popular on bittorrent sites, but they are very prevalent, in my experience, on the streets of Pacific nations.

    2. Re:And who cares, anyway? by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have copies of Bolt and Quantum of Solace. Neither are out on DVD yet. Yes, I admit that they are pirated copies acquired through less than noble means. I had no intention of ever seeing either movie, and frankly, the rating on Bolt is a pretty big fuckup.

      Neither are cam copies - they are rips of the copies sent by the studio to the Oscars for consideration. (QoS has the subtitle "For your consideration"; Bolt has "property of Disney - do not copy".)

      I'm not sure why the studios are ripping their own movies and putting them in... places, but they sure aren't cam copies.

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    3. Re:And who cares, anyway? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Dude, those are leaked DVD screeners. It's pretty easy to get free movies if you're involved in the periphery of the industry. I have like 50 legitimate DVD screeners right next to me.

    4. Re:And who cares, anyway? by theLOUDroom · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Well, outside of Oscar season the percentage of early-run pirated movies which are from in-theater cameras approaches 100%.

      Citation please.

      This smacks of someone just making up crap to support their viewpoint.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    5. Re:And who cares, anyway? by Ucklak · · Score: 1

      What do you think a screener is?

      "copies sent by the studio to the Oscars for consideration." and in the before time, copies or 'screeners' sent to video stores to determine if they would purchase them for rent - way before the Blockbuster type of chain.

      I've seen plenty of screeners in the 80s.

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
    6. Re:And who cares, anyway? by gwait · · Score: 1

      The real question - if you magically eliminated this type of piracy, how many more sales of DVD's and theatre tickets would you expect to see?

      I'd guess zero.

      IE someone happy enough to actually watch a theatre rip of a movie is never likely to pay to see a decent quality format.

      --
      Bavarian Purity Law of Rice Krispie Squares: Rice Krispies, Marshmallows, Butter, Vanilla.
    7. Re:And who cares, anyway? by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why I don't watch cam rips. It gives me headaches. Waste of time anyway. For a good movie it's worth watching in theater just for the awesome sound system and giant screen. But then again, MPAA isn't interested in making money only from "good" movies. They want people to pay for shit too.

    8. Re:And who cares, anyway? by mpe · · Score: 1

      I have copies of Bolt and Quantum of Solace. Neither are out on DVD yet.

      There's a difference between "not out of DVD" and "DVDs havn't been made yet". Once you have huge quantities of bits of plastic spread about the planet.

    9. Re:And who cares, anyway? by mpe · · Score: 1

      Dude, those are leaked DVD screeners. It's pretty easy to get free movies if you're involved in the periphery of the industry. I have like 50 legitimate DVD screeners right next to me.

      Are these burned or pressed? If the latter then there's more possibilities for copies/contents to be "leaked".

    10. Re:And who cares, anyway? by maeka · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As I stated later in my post, this comes solely from the DVDs I have viewed, while in what I called "Pacific" nations. China, The Philippines, South Korea, Vietnam, Indonesia, and the Mariana Islands.
      I'll admit to buying some, but the vast majority of ones I have viewed were provided by "hotel rentals" from the front desk. I was shocked the first time I saw one, as the disc was silver and had a silk-screened label.

      As for "crap to support my viewpoint" - I didn't realize I had an agenda to push.

    11. Re:And who cares, anyway? by djdavetrouble · · Score: 4, Informative

      Citation please.

      This smacks of someone just making up crap to support their viewpoint.

        He is exactly right, and there is no citation for what goes on in the scene and the street.

      If you have spent any time in the scene, even as a leech, you will know that there is fierce competition
      to be the FIRST. The timeline is exactly as he said: cams first, telecine and r5's next,
      then DVD screeners and finally official releases. If you are the group with a first in any
      of these categories, you win. Cams are usually made in the first week of release, and make
      it to the street very shortly thereafter.

      The street follows the scene. If there is a cam out on the scene, you will see it on the street.
      DVD Screener hits the scene, expect it on the street less than a week later. I live in new york
      city and they sell boots everywhere, and they cost next to nothing. They sell them in the subway,
      laid out on sheets in the street, guys with duffel bags walk around selling them, etc etc.
      There is no shortage of bootleg everything here, starting with mass media, i.e. music software and movies.

      --
      music lover since 1969
    12. Re:And who cares, anyway? by saiha · · Score: 1

      Not sure where you expect to get this citation from, but it seems pretty obvious if you are on the internet that ever movie is cammed.

    13. Re:And who cares, anyway? by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      What proportion of pirated movies are from in-theater cameras? I suspect it's minuscule, even if it seems to get a lot of attention. The video and audio quality must be way below DVDrip level, using any kind of equipment that can be "sneaked" into a theater.

      I live in Hong Kong, and I often buy used DVDs at local flea markets. They're only about 50 cents each, so I pick up anything that looks vaguely interesting.

      Some legit releases, lots of bootlegs. But if it's a cam bootleg, blurry picture, silhouettes passing in front of the image, rustling noise and conversation in the background, I press eject after a few seconds and bin it. I'll wait till a better version turns up.

      Some have very nice packaging, boxes, etc, as good as the "real thing", but that's no guarantee of quality of the disc itself. So I would never pay much for them, especially early releases. Though you can find Oscar screeners in excellent quality before the offical launch.

    14. Re:And who cares, anyway? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they want more DVD sales at premium price they should release them at the same time as the movie in cinemas, let people chose the format they prefer.

      I once in a while download DVD movies/720p because I'm fed up with the treatment I'm given when buying them. (Yeah it is illegal, but fuck me if I care, their treatment of paying customers should be illegal).

      Last DVD I bought I had to sit through different FBI warnings about copying, now this pisses me off since 1. this isn't the US, so FBI means didly, 2. I already bought the fucking movie, so piss off. After the mandatory warning the DVD started playing commercials for upcoming movies, again this is highly annoying since you will be presented with the same material each and every time you watch the movie, and suddenly they aren't so much upcoming, but old news. Now normally you can just skip those commercials by hitting menu, but on this DVD they have placed the commercials as part of the movie! I had to go into menu, find the scene selector and then skip into the first scene of the movie to get past the commercials.

      Fuck me if I'm ever buying another movie.

    15. Re:And who cares, anyway? by Splab · · Score: 1

      Bolt is out on 720p without the Disney thing, QoS has been out for a fairly long time on ripped DVD as far as I know (haven't really kept an eye on that since I saw it in the cinema and once was enough).

    16. Re:And who cares, anyway? by Full+Metal+Jackass · · Score: 1

      I have copies of Bolt and Quantum of Solace. Neither are out on DVD yet. Yes, I admit that they are pirated copies acquired through less than noble means. I had no intention of ever seeing either movie

      Do you only download movies that you have no intention of seeing?

      Don't bother to respond. I only ask questions if I don't care what the answer is.

    17. Re:And who cares, anyway? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you have spent any time in the scene, even as a leech, you will know that there is fierce competition to be the FIRST.

      Wait - so you're saying it's Quentin Tarantino who's responsible for all the bootlegging?

    18. Re:And who cares, anyway? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So how well is your habit of challenging every post you respond to, being a dick, and never offering citations of your own working out?
      Keeping you happy?

      Your comment history is sad, one off-track mind.

    19. Re:And who cares, anyway? by Pope · · Score: 1

      I had no intention of ever seeing either movie

      And yet you just *had* to go get bootleg copies of them, these movies you didn't want to go see, didn't you?

      Gosh, these grapes sure are sour.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    20. Re:And who cares, anyway? by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 1

      My point was that it's not cam movies. Thanks for reading.

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    21. Re:And who cares, anyway? by theLOUDroom · · Score: 1

      He is exactly right, and there is no citation for what goes on in the scene and the street.

      That's nonsense.
      Statistics can be compiled, just like anything else.
      For example, find 100 torrents for pirated movies and count how many were filmed with a handheld camera.

      It's funny how it's considered "flamebait" to point out that the OP was simply too lazy to do this and was simply picking numbers off the top of his head.

      He could easily have said "In my experince...blah blah blah", but no he had to make very specific claims, which should be pretty easy to defend, but then refuse to provide anything but his word to back it up.

      If I claimed that 50% of people who smoke cigarettes, die of lung cancer, one would expect me to be able to provide a reference.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    22. Re:And who cares, anyway? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For example, find 100 torrents for pirated movies and count how many were filmed with a handheld camera.

      That does not demonstrate a relevant record of what was released. "The Scene" does not distribute a CAM after a TS has been released. Does not distribute a TS after a R5 has been released. Does not distribute a R5 after a DVDrip has been released. Looking what is currently on a public tracker (What? You want a Scene site as a reference? (Don't mean some "private" tracker, mean a proper topsite.) tells you nothing about what the first release was. Tells you nothing about what is on the street.

      It's funny how it's considered "flamebait" to point out that the OP was simply too lazy to do this and was simply picking numbers off the top of his head.

      Too lazy? Lazier than your constant karma farming of "I DEMAND A CITATION" posts?

      but then refuse to provide anything but his word to back it up.

      Does one need to defend that the sky is blue? Every fucking reply to your worthless ass told you how right he was and how worthless you are. What do you want next? A citation that your mom is a whore?

  20. That will not work. Pirates will use FM feed. by tepples · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Most cinemas that I've been to lately have micro-power FM transmitters that broadcast the audio in each screening room, for the benefit of people with hearing impairment who bring their own radios and listen on headphones. If the pirates were to use audio from this FM feed, the camera could be anywhere in the room and nobody would know.

    1. Re:That will not work. Pirates will use FM feed. by Bert64 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Those with poor hearing must be pirates, better stop broadcasting like that in the name of piracy prevention.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    2. Re:That will not work. Pirates will use FM feed. by StormReaver · · Score: 1

      To increase the probability of accurately identifying the hard of hearing, all theater patrons must submit to the point-blank air horn test. If you writhe on the floor in agony with your hands over your ears, you obviously weren't deaf and therefore were obviously not a pirate. Please be seated.

      On the bright side, the excessively loud speaker systems in the theater won't be nearly as annoying to you any more. Have a nice day.

    3. Re:That will not work. Pirates will use FM feed. by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      I never really understood the idea that someone could hear a pocket radio better than the booming sound from a movie theater. And if they've actually got such a device, aren't they just damaging what's left of their hearing?

  21. This will never work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It cannot work. Most of the time they will never know which cinema it was bootlegged from. So.... GG

  22. This might work by actionbastard · · Score: 1

    If Hollywood made movies that were worth stealing, more people would be 'video-ing' movies. Most -if not all- of this stupidity takes place in markets where the videos are turned into cheap, flea-market quality, DVDs that are sold in locales where copyright means that it's alright to copy someone's work. Very few of the massive, high-budget, POSes that are being churned out by Hollywood these days are 'must sees' -let alone 'must buys' or 'must torrent'.

    --
    Sig this!
  23. Useless Information by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Even if they did they so what? They will still not know in which cinema or exactly when the film was recorded. I fail to see how knowing where the pirate sat will help. In fact if they look at the distortion of the image they can presumably already figure out the angle.

    1. Re:Useless Information by spazdor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They will still not know in which cinema or exactly when the film was recorded.

      They will if the watermarking equipment creates a unique signature with each playback.

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    2. Re:Useless Information by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 5, Funny

      All the cameras and watermarks in the universe will not catch a man with a hidden videocamera paying cash to see movies at large theaters in large cities.

      The whole "taping-in-the-theater" thing is sooooo 1999. Now we have good samaritans who are willing to leak the movie beforehand and save us the trouble of a trip!

    3. Re:Useless Information by Firehed · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They've been doing that for quite a while, actually. Ever seen a bunch of red dots flash onscreen for a frame a couple times during a movie? (if not, you will now - sorry) Those are to determine what theatre a leaked cam copy came from.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    4. Re:Useless Information by WhatAmIDoingHere · · Score: 1

      Pay with cash. Most cams end up using someone else's audio.

      This is a dumb idea.

      --
      Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
    5. Re:Useless Information by beckerist · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I appreciate the apology. I read about it a year or two ago and now I HATE going to the theaters. Those red dots are really distracting, and take away from the movie experience. Granted, they are only a small flash every few minutes, but it's enough to just BUG me!

    6. Re:Useless Information by hack++slash · · Score: 3, Insightful

      [red dots]...which are probably very easily removable with a good video editing package.

      Now which theater did that camcorder copy come from?

      --
      To do something right, you often have to roll up your sleeves and get busy.
    7. Re:Useless Information by Joce640k · · Score: 2, Funny

      Guess what? Now they're going to distort the audio as well...!

      --
      No sig today...
    8. Re:Useless Information by mpeskett · · Score: 1

      Whether it's someone else's or not, most cams I've seen have audio so terrible it's hard to tell who's speaking, let alone pick up subtle audio watermarks.

    9. Re:Useless Information by 0xygen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe it is not aimed at cinemagoers, more projectionists?

    10. Re:Useless Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The dots are indicators to show when the reel is about over. This is a holdover from the past when you had to change projectors between reels.

    11. Re:Useless Information by Garganus · · Score: 1

      Maybe it is not aimed at cinemagoers, more projectionists?

      Um, projectionists usually sit in the booth, not in the seats.

    12. Re:Useless Information by phorm · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In that case, it sounds like this "watermarking" would make it easy to identify if it's the projectionist making the copy rather than a patron.

    13. Re:Useless Information by saiha · · Score: 1

      I hate those red dots so so much. Even before I knew what they were for I could see them. One more reason for me to skip the theater.

    14. Re:Useless Information by Dustie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And just as the red dots it will only annoy people who actually go to the theatres. The pirated versions are cleaned from watermarkings before they are released. But looking at the game scene it does not look like the people in charge understand that once again they only hurt the wrong people.

    15. Re:Useless Information by daBass · · Score: 0, Redundant

      You sure you are not confusing this with the dots 15 seconds and 1 second before a reel splice? Note the next scene change will be a hard cut of both audio and video, no wipes or fades.

    16. Re:Useless Information by neokushan · · Score: 1

      More often than not, you get good video with rubbish audio and rubbish video with good audio, so occasionally some people mix and match them for the best effect while waiting for a screener or whatever.
      Some people will even use multiple sources of both to get the best experience, particularly on major releases. I remember getting a fairly good copy of Transformers with "decent" video, yet excellent sound. However, for about 5 seconds in the middle of the film, the sound dropped to a clearly substandard cam recording. Most likely, the excellent audio came from a source that missed this one part of the film (Changing tapes in the recorder, perhaps?).

      Yes, I admit to pirating films, but you'll be pleased to know that I bought Transformers on Blu-ray.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    17. Re:Useless Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Nah, there really is a matrix of rather large, dark red-brown dots placed randomly though all cinema movies, they usually place it whenever there's a dark scene, to be less bothersome, and at various locations in the video frame. Whenever it's shown, it might be 5-10% the size of the frame, maybe with a duration of a couple frames.

      Some people don't notice it, but for me, it's extremely bothersome--just like for some people, 60hz CRTs don't present a problem, but it'll drive me batty.

      I really wish I could find a screen cap of what it looks like, but I don't know the name they use for the technique, and searches haven't dug anything up...

    18. Re:Useless Information by csartanis · · Score: 2, Informative

      Several cams I've seen use direct feed audio from the projector booth.

    19. Re:Useless Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Which is ironic, since it's still useless because it provides the info well after the fact. What good does knowing where the bootlegger sat if you find the video online or at a flea-market a week later? The person isn't going to sit in the same seat every time. If they're really worried, just get the movie theater ushers to check the seats in the middle. (Which should be obvious.) Anyhow, in-theater bootlegs are considered bit ghetto-ish nowadays since much better can be had as a direct conversion from leaked or recently released digital media. (And those are likely to be from friends/family of the actual people that do movie reviews, or those folks doing janitorial or mailroom work at press-related offices. What, you think those press-release DVDs actually get destroyed?) Nobody really wants the in-theater copy with the commentary and noise of the people around the bootlegger or see someone in front getting up for popcorn. Such recordings are only for people desperate for a quick movie fix or for those without access (direct or indirectly via friends) to a good internet connection.

    20. Re:Useless Information by droopycom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Thats just the first step.

      Visible video watermark is easily removable *if* you take the time to do it. I didnt noticed "red dots" yet, so I'm assuming its fairly unobtrusive and one would need to watch the whole movie a couple of time very carefully to make sure you removed all the watermarks.

      They are betting it will discourage enough people, or that somebody will be sloppy and get caught and made a good example of...

      The next step for the pirates would be to have an automated process to detect and remove the marks.

      Then the studios would try to produce more subtle marks, that are more difficult to detect and remove, and you would get into an race between the pirates and the studios...

      But keep in mind that, assuming the studios can indeed come up with always better technologies, it will be much more risky for the pirates to know they are safe.

      On the copy protection/DRM side, its always easy and safe for the hackers: They know when they succeeded. Where the studio never know where the next exploitable flaws in their system is going to be.

      Now for watermark: the pirates will probably never really know if they succeeded in removing the watermarks because the studio will keep the technology and the detectors secrets until they have to publish them for court cases.

      Obviously, it remains to be seen if any video/audio watermark system is robust enough to survive the basic trans-coding algorithm that are usually applied by the pirates, and also if they are robust enough to be admissible in courts.

      But then again, if you knew that your dvds or camcorded movies were watermarked with information that could eventually be linked to you, would you take the effort and risk to share it on bittorrent ? If you were in it for the money, I'm sure you will take some risks, but if you were doing it just for the heck of it ?

      I think thats what the studio are thinking: "If they think we have the technology to track them, or if its just good enough that we can catch just one of them and make an example of it, that will be a string deterrent..."

      But all in all I would not be too worried...

    21. Re:Useless Information by uhlume · · Score: 1

      These are presumably to catch telecine rips (digitized directly from the film reel — i.e., by theater staff with access to the film), not cam/telesync rips.

      --
      SIERRA TANGO FOXTROT UNIFORM
    22. Re:Useless Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I know how to stop those evil pirates! Just show a blank screen and white noise audio in the theaters - it'll make those bootlegs useless!

    23. Re:Useless Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      All the cameras and watermarks in the universe will not catch a man with a hidden videocamera paying cash to see movies at large theaters in large cities.

      "Sir, i need a creditcard, two forms of ID, finger- and ass-print, our seats are equiped with butt-recognition and may blow up in case of unauthorized sitting. Enjoy you movie!"

    24. Re:Useless Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously, it remains to be seen if any video/audio watermark system is robust enough to survive the basic trans-coding algorithm that are usually applied by the pirates, and also if they are robust enough to be admissible in courts.

      Exactly.
      The copy protection has to be subtle enough to be undetectable so it cant be removed while at the same time able to survive capture on a crappy, out-of-focus handcam and several transcodings.

      The fact that DVD-Screeners still get released to the public confirms that the studios have no good way to implement watermarking.
      With a DVD-screener the studios have total control over the format and can put whatever kind of watermark (intrusive or not) on it. Plus it doesn't have to endure the above mentioned camera or as much re-encoding.

    25. Re:Useless Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I watch Casino Royale in the theatre, there was a mouse cursor in the middle of the screen! It was probably at about 10% opacity but my god it gave me the shits!

      Of course, I had to share what I had found with my GF... :)

    26. Re:Useless Information by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Couldn't you just capture the assisted-listening radio broadcast? I bet in some theaters the quality is pretty good.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    27. Re:Useless Information by elgaard · · Score: 1

      ==
      Obviously, it remains to be seen if any video/audio watermark system is robust enough to survive the basic trans-coding algorithm that are usually applied by the pirates, and also if they are robust enough to be admissible in courts.
      ==

      If they really wanted, they could e.g. select a number of short scenes and shoot them 10 times each and distribute movies with different combinations of these shots to each theater.

      There would be no way of recognizing the critical shots from a single recording. Diffing many recordings from different theaters could reveal some of the shots, but probably not all.

    28. Re:Useless Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It wouldn't be a stretch for the theaters to film the audience and be able to go back and get images of whoever recorded the movie.

    29. Re:Useless Information by gnapster · · Score: 1

      Yes, I admit to pirating films, but you'll be pleased to know that I bought Transformers on Blu-ray.

      You're an example to us all.

    30. Re:Useless Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it all depends on the location of the speakers in the cinema. you just get a radius of the location of the filiming. idea won't work. sorry

    31. Re:Useless Information by SyncNine · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't know about that -- telecines are done from the film itself, in the back room or projector room. The audio in those cases is either a direct pull from the soundtrack CDs that are loaded into the projector or are direct rips from the projector's output ports -- there is no reason to use a microphone to pick up the audio for a telecine if you already have access to the film itself, as it's likely you'd have access to a pure digital or at least direct analog copy of the audio.

      This looks like they're trying to get cammers, but like the GGGGGGGP or whoever posted, after the fact is too late ...

      --
      To the darkened skies once more, and ever onward.
    32. Re:Useless Information by tgrigsby · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So I wonder when the studios will start CGI'ing objects into the movie to identify it? A vase on a table in the background, a reflection in the store window, the face on a sign, the color of a dog's collar, etc. If there were a number of these, they could use them like bits to identify a location. You'd need more than one copy of the movie to remove any of them, and if enough of them were the same in the two copies, you'd miss some of those, allowing the MPAA to at least narrow down the origin.

      Not only would it not be hard, it could probably even be automated with sufficiently advanced software.

      Of course, I've already patented this idea, so do even go trying to steal it...

      --
      *** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
    33. Re:Useless Information by hack++slash · · Score: 1

      A much more simple & easier idea to 'watermark' a film would be to remove a single frame during a fast action sequence.

      5 seconds of fast action would potentially give you the ability to distribute 120 different 'watermarked' versions of the film.

      --
      To do something right, you often have to roll up your sleeves and get busy.
    34. Re:Useless Information by davolfman · · Score: 1

      There's a flaw to your plan. More subtle watermarks are easier to remove. In fact they quite likely won't survive the lossy compression in the codec!

    35. Re:Useless Information by infonography · · Score: 1

      I would add that to.. Cellphone users, noisy children, people who talk back to the screen (except in Rocky Horror) and morons in general. I wait a few weeks and it's on DVD big deal. The only ones I ever go to are stuff like Dark Knight in IMAX once they get a home version of that I won't go out ever.

      --
      Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
    36. Re:Useless Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coded_Anti-Piracy

    37. Re:Useless Information by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      Too bad the new thing is 720p x264. :P

      I imagine a fuzzy xvid won't have any watermarks left, but 720p or higher are the new pirate's choice, right?

    38. Re:Useless Information by vgerdj · · Score: 1

      I thought the red dots were for the projector operator to hit play on the other projector to sync the reels.

    39. Re:Useless Information by 0xygen · · Score: 1

      Yes, that was my point...

      Where do you think a lot of these movies are ripped from?

      I've seen a LOT of cam's from empty cinemas.

    40. Re:Useless Information by uhlume · · Score: 1

      Yes, you're quite correct -- the confusing jumble that is Slashdot's threaded presentation led me to believe the AC comment I responded to was replying to this post, rather than this one.

      --
      SIERRA TANGO FOXTROT UNIFORM
    41. Re:Useless Information by TimothyDavis · · Score: 1

      Which is one of the top reasons I don't see movies in theaters anymore. From film quality (scratches), to intentional watermarking, the movie industry is intentionally disrupting the performance. Why are they working so hard to piss off the paying customers? Has the movie industry actually done a risk vs. reward analysis?

      I really am angry that the industry won't realize that everything they do to prevent paying customers from having an optimal experience (preventing FF, HDCP, poorly implemented DRM, etc) will cost them far more than piracy ever would have.

    42. Re:Useless Information by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      I sure have and it's very annoying. But of course, ruining the theater-going experience is certainly part of Hollywood's current business model, which is one of the reasons I rarely go to the movies any more. Netflix is the main reason though.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    43. Re:Useless Information by Kabuthunk · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I wouldn't be worried one way or the other. Even if you didn't bother to remove any watermarking from the theater, AND if for some reason your digital camera marks it as well... or hell, let's say even if you had a tape-based video recorder, and then converted that to digital, and any kind of watermarking STILL survived somehow... it's still useless to anyone. They know it came from "X" camera. Good luck finding that camera. Unless the person taking the video is completely stupid. I'm sure if the feds were to dig hard enough, AND if the trail even existed, they might be able to trace back to the actual sale in the actual store and find what credit card/debit card paid for it.

      Personally, if I were planning to illegally record and upload videos of movies, I'd be damn sure to buy said recorder with cash. Or get it from a garage sale or somewhere else used. Theoretical trail broken, bye bye police, unless you're actually caught and arrested physically at the time of recording red-handed... and that threat has always existed regardless.

      --
      Planet Zebeth - Metroid with a twist
    44. Re:Useless Information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Audio watermarks that survive transcoding have been around for years. I worked at a now defunct company that had working technology to do this in 2001.

    45. Re:Useless Information by RobertM1968 · · Score: 1

      Besides, from what I have seen, it seems that most bootlegs aren't filmed with a hand-held recorder anymore. And those that are, seem to be filmed from the recording booth with a direct line-in from the sound outputs in the booth.

      This is "technology" that would have been helpful five or ten years ago. Now... I think it a waste of money and an unneccesary burden on everyone involved in implementing this stupidity.

    46. Re:Useless Information by RobertM1968 · · Score: 1

      The red dots, a.k.a. cigarette burns, are not to combat movie piracy. They are to inform the projectionist (where they have non-automated systems or dont do a "full movie splice" of all the reels) that it is time to change reels.

      Unless of course there is something new out there that happens to resemble the cigarette burns and has a different purpose - but I have yet to see anything of the sort that is not simply the cue for the projectionist that a reel is about to end.

    47. Re:Useless Information by RobertM1968 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Thats just the first step.

      The easiest step to combat current day technology for in seat recording is a bank of IR emitters aimed at the audience area.

      Do you realize how cheap - and easy - it is to blind most CCD cameras? A decent sized bank would make it look like the cameras were pointing at the sun.

      With stadium seating, this is very easy to accomplish even with the placement of the movie screen (ie: so the emitters are not in front of or blocking the view of the screen).

      The most people would then get (recorded onto a cam) is a crappy audio track and a nice white image.

    48. Re:Useless Information by RobertM1968 · · Score: 1

      If you mean this:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coded_Anti-Piracy

      Yet to see one. Should be easy to combat.

    49. Re:Useless Information by Theoboley · · Score: 1

      By that time, they would have used up more resources and man hours to track down the Pirate than they would have gotten out of a court case anyway.

      --
      Stupidity only gets you so far, then you've gotta try
    50. Re:Useless Information by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      There exist low spatial and temporal frequency watermarks that resist compression and editing. In fact they are totally invisible frame by frame and almost impossible to detect by eye. To remove them you have to edit the whole film.

      Quite simply, these are watermarks with a lot of redundancies, very resistant to almost anything.

    51. Re:Useless Information by Alsee · · Score: 1

      How the hell am I supposed to be able to watch the movie then?
      I see infrared, you insensitive clod!

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  24. Seems pointless.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ok so they track down the seat. Now they have the buttprint of some anonymous person who obviously paid for his seat with cash and the movie theater didn't assign a seating chart. Anyone else seeing that this is probably a multimillion dollar industry to do jack crap?

  25. Next step - CCTV by JonTurner · · Score: 1

    Infrared photograph of everyone in the theatre. Mark my words, this is coming. For "security" reasons, to fight terrorism, etc.

    Just like the outrageous crap in most EULAs, this will be posted somewhere on a wall, saying "by entering these premises, you are consenting to be photographed"

    Even if that doesn't happen -- IMO, the amount of energy being poured into technology such as this seat tracking software would be better spent creating films worth watching. Between the smug know-it-all antics of the Hollywood crowd and the deep-as-a-puddle content of most dialog and storylines, there's just no compelling reason to attend.

    LOTR was the most recent film I saw in a theatre. At the rate things are going, it may be the last film I see in any theatre.

    1. Re:Next step - CCTV by Schemat1c · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Infrared photograph of everyone in the theatre. Mark my words, this is coming. For "security" reasons, to fight terrorism, etc

      That would be counter-productive and would drive away customers from an already troubled industry.

      --

      "Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everybody agrees that it is old enough to know better." - Unknown
    2. Re:Next step - CCTV by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      Too late. There was a mysterious box in the theater with a small red light on it that looked suspiciously like a CCD camera in it last time I saw a movie.

      I don't know if there was a camera in it... but if it wasn't a ccd camera I don't know what it is.

    3. Re:Next step - CCTV by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      That's really going to fuck up the IR send/receive devices for the hard of hearing in every single theater in the US.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
  26. Seems kidna pointless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been going to movies my whole life, not one of them has assigned seats. Even if they did, as long as most people pay for tickets with cash, there's nothing linking the ticket back to whoever used it.

  27. No need to assign seats. by Kickasso · · Score: 1

    They will just photograph the audience (in infrared, so that no one notices). Then they'll use face recognition to identify you when you come to buy your next ticket, and trace you down by the CC number.

    1. Re:No need to assign seats. by oodaloop · · Score: 1

      If you're going to spy on movie-goers with a camera good enough to pick out facial features, why wouldn't you just use the camera to look for someone with a video camera?

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
  28. Useful? by Arancaytar · · Score: 1

    1. So do they check your ID when you buy a ticket (and don't look too young) or enter the cinema?
    2. Don't you have more than one movie theater in the US?
    3. Doesn't a movie get shown several times at each of these theaters?

    Any single one of these would completely invalidate the data. By the time the bootleg is distributed, knowing which seat the thing is filmed from doesn't sound very useful.

    1. Re:Useful? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. So do they check your ID when you buy a ticket (and don't look too young) or enter the cinema?
      2. Don't you have more than one movie theater in the US?
      3. Doesn't a movie get shown several times at each of these theaters?

      Any single one of these would completely invalidate the data. By the time the bootleg is distributed, knowing which seat the thing is filmed from doesn't sound very useful.

      Hi! My name's Spider!

    2. Re:Useful? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While this comment is meant to be sarcastic, it's true:

      1. Yes, in Alaska, at that dinner theater that also sells alcohol. You also get your ID checked at ALL theaters if the movie is rated R or 18A
      2. In Alaska? No. Rural America? No.
      3. In Rural cities, No.

      The most obvious answer though is that the movies are being pirated on day of release, making it a prime opportunity to have assigned seating as to pack in as many customers as possible. The first person to get something onto IRC channels or torrents gets the credit. It's a game to pirates.

      So that just means that every theater that is showing a movie on the first day, needs to ID everyone, or run on prepaid tickets-with-id only. Rural America (and Alaska) never gets movies on the day or release, so they won't bother there.

    3. Re:Useful? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You also get your ID checked at ALL theaters if the movie is rated R or 18A

      Once you look like you're over 20, pretty much all theaters stop carding you.

      I looked over 20 when I was 16, so I can say that I've never been carded at one.

  29. What this "news" story means? by rusl · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A lot of people are pointing out some of the obvious technical flaws here: microphone placement, ID/seat assignments, poor quality CAMs suck, etc. etc.

    The even more significant issue would be that such a scheme would have serious widespread implementation to be relevant. Which is never, ever going to happen. Cinema's are franchises, it's not like a software update that can be installed everywhere "instantly" fast (within a week for frequently updated systems, years for others...). This system would be difficult to set up effectively in one cinema, let alone a chain of them, let alone an entire city with competing networks, let alone many cities, let alone a whole nation, let alone bigger than that...etc.

    This is like the "news" about video watermarks supposedly to be embedded in the films so that the specific theatre/time could be traced. This is like the IR projected from the screen that will make your camera unable to record properly.

    None of this could conceivably ever, ever make it past a few experimental test runs in a few random places.

    So why is this news? More WAR-ON-DRUGS style propaganda. That is to say disinformation... or more accurately: Utter B.S. that relies entirely on widespread ignorance and a subservient media to not be laughed out of the room. This is like the stories about people injecting Opium (sounds almost plausible except that Opium is a solid) and LSD making people think they can fly off buildings, Reefer Madness etc.

    As much as I enjoy wild nerdy speculation about wireless microphones and other espionage imaginings (for financially irrelevant CAMs no less) we should call it what it is: sheer nonsense.

    My next question is this: I assume that this is a real company making this "technology" that is important only for its semi-believable bluster. So how do we get in on such a gravy train? I want to write Science Fiction propaganda news articles too!

    --
    Stupidity is its own reward.
    1. Re:What this "news" story means? by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > My next question is this: I assume that this is a real company...

      Why do you assume that?

      > ...making this "technology" that is important only for its semi-believable bluster.
      > So how do we get in on such a gravy train?

      I think that getting on somebody's gravy train is the goal of the inventors of this gadget. Getting it publicized is the first step. The thing will never be deployed, of course, but if they can make the right connections some doofus executive in the entertainment industry might buy their patents for a few million.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  30. Previous step - DRM by porneL · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That would be counter-productive and would drive away customers from an already troubled industry.

    That argument never stopped RIAA and MPAA before.

  31. The real issue by arikol · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The real issue (apart from the problems in actually tracking all users and treating them like criminals) is whether there might not be more constructive ways for the movie industry to spend their money?

    One brilliant idea might be to give scriptwriters the money to write better scripts that are actually worth the cost of the ticket.

    Or maybe theater owners try to IMPROVE the theater going experience. There are many things to complain about in a regular trip to the movies. Most are age old complaints like inconsiderate fellow moviegoers that like chatting. Others are newer like getting frisked when going to an early screening of a movie.
    Treat customers like criminals and they will behave that way.

    Make going to a movie theater worth the price of admission. Make it as easy as possible to go and as cheap as possible while keeping the quality of the experience as high as possible.
    There will be some trade-offs, but such is life.
    Just don't model the experience on the airlines models. Remember that people are almost at a point where they would rather swim across the Atlantic than use the bloody airlines.

    1. Re:The real issue by mpe · · Score: 1

      The real issue (apart from the problems in actually tracking all users and treating them like criminals) is whether there might not be more constructive ways for the movie industry to spend their money?
      One brilliant idea might be to give scriptwriters the money to write better scripts that are actually worth the cost of the ticket.


      They could even get the same people who come up with these "piracy prevention" ideas to write some scripts.

  32. Pinpoint a pirate? by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Or just where the microphone was....

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  33. LOLZ by gearloos · · Score: 1

    This is great. I love any news from anything to do with the entertainment industry or DMCA etc... I have this mental picture : RIAA and their pocket officials: Calling all cars! Calling all cars! All units be on the lookout for movie patron sitting in row 23, seat 4B at Cinimax on main street. Subject was last known to have watched Star Wars 7 months ago. Description? Well, just go to the theater and arrest everyone. Someone is bound to confess to something!

    --
    "Computers are a lot like Air Conditioners" "They both work great until you start opening Windows"
    1. Re:LOLZ by mpe · · Score: 1

      This is great. I love any news from anything to do with the entertainment industry or DMCA etc... I have this mental picture : RIAA and their pocket officials: Calling all cars! Calling all cars! All units be on the lookout for movie patron sitting in row 23, seat 4B at Cinimax on main street. Subject was last known to have watched Star Wars 7 months ago. Description? Well, just go to the theater and arrest everyone. Someone is bound to confess to something!

      That would do for an opening scene of a movie, keep going :) The idea may even be good for several movies.

  34. Accuracy by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Setting that up across the nation and keeping it maintained would be a nightmare.

    So many differences across the theaters, even identical ones would have to be calibrated at least every show, if not continuously during the show.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  35. not worth the hassle by nEoN+nOoDlE · · Score: 1

    I'm starting to think that the movie industry is actively trying to destroy the theater experience. Trailers are now around 25 minutes. Before the trailers start, there's more commercials. Ticket prices have gone up. They keep playing those stupid anti-piracy ads in the theater for a movie YOU'VE PAID TO SEE. On top of that, movies come out to DVD or Blu-Ray after 2 months of leaving the theater. With all of this going on, they then blame piracy for loss of sales and put in millions on more ads and in this case more technology to stop piracy. It will never work. The bootleg copy taken by a guy with a video camera in the theater is practically gone. There are same day releases of movies that are taken from DVD pre-releases that were leaked in-house. If they can't even stop people within their industry to pirate the stuff, how can they stop anybody else? There will always be a 2 dollar theater with no security and no hi-tech gadgetry to stop the filming. If all else fails, this will continue to be the source. Just move on. Of course, they never will, but it's just silly to see this battle continue on indefinitely because the movie industry seems so clueless to stop it.

    --
    Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
  36. Profiling by zogger · · Score: 1

    Start with the premise that guys who do this do it a lot, they are serialists. Say they start collecting this evidence and looking at pirated releases. They now go and look at the few seats at each instance of the pirated movie capture thing being triggered, and look for any human face matches. Once they have the same guy in more than one instance, they got a pretty good idea it really *is* him and not the people sitting next to him, the odds of him having the same random neighbors next to him in the seats are pretty far off-and if it is the same few people, then it is a crew effort, bigger fish for the companies to nail. Either way, they work on matches, not a single instance. It's a start on IDing the guy or guys then. The fuzz have most everyone's face in their data banks now with driver's licenses, and they take it from there. Allegedly, this facial recognition tech out there now is good enough for vegas to catch counters already, so if the casinos have that tech and ability to analyze and ID faces, the big studios do too, if they wanted to.

    They could also use this if they actually caught (or suspected) the guy from some other slip up, and then went back and looked at their recordings of the identified area in the theater to see if they could find him inside the zero in range they recorded. If they did, it would would then be just some more evidence to throw at him in court.

    If course the basic idea from the studio's POV is to get knowledge of this anti piracy tech out in the wild, just to discourage all but the most desperate or most retarded to even try it, knowing they will be the "star" on the in theater candid camera. Mostly, it is just a deterrent, especially if they perfect it and get a few convictions using the tech. The word will get out, that it is just not worth it.

  37. What's stupid... by tjstork · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well... one thing that's stupid.... is that this product focused on the sound and I'd bet you could get way more accuracy from building the technology around, well, the movie itself.

    Why do you have to go to all the trouble of a watermarked sound track when you should have the position of the seat very simply by the angle of the screen on the wall in relation to what's on the camera?

    In -fact-, you could make it really simple. Assume that your movie won't show in more than 16,000 theaters, that's what, 14 bits? So you have 14 things in the movie, in 14 scenes, that the director uses, say, pepsi as a prop rather than coke. In post production, assuming that all of these clips are in the computer, you could, for each film print, select the various combinations of each of the scenes such that each film is unique.

    Send out each film to each theater, and then bam, when it shows up in some street, you know where it came from. Then you can send out the goons, shoot the movie theater owner, hang up all the patrons in cages with vultures pecking on their organs, and then, uh, nobody would go to that movie theater again.

    Oh wait... what's REALLY stupid is that, no matter how much the movie companies can trace leaks back to a theater, there's not a damn thing they can do to that theater, lest they lose business. If you are a movie theater owner, why not let everyone bring in a camcorder... at least they all buy tickets!

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:What's stupid... by jtgd · · Score: 1

      In -fact-, you could make it really simple. ... So you have 14 things in the movie, in 14 scenes, that the director uses, say, pepsi as a prop rather than coke. In post production, assuming that all of these clips are in the computer, you could, for each film print, select the various combinations of each of the scenes such that each film is unique.

      That doesn't sound very simple at all. Shooting different scenes? A simple way would be to delete single frames, probably at scene transitions. Hard to detect, unnoticeable to the eye, but through an analysis of the CAM it could be identifiable.

      --
      J
    2. Re:What's stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well... one thing that's stupid.... is that this product focused on the sound and I'd bet you could get way more accuracy from building the technology around, well, the movie itself.

      Why do you have to go to all the trouble of a watermarked sound track when you should have the position of the seat very simply by the angle of the screen on the wall in relation to what's on the camera?

      Couldn't do that, you'd only be able to extract a line of seats the perpetrator could have been sitting in. To determine the exact seat location from the video, you'd need to know about the camera's optics (specifically it's focal length).

    3. Re:What's stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe they already watermark each oscar screener. I have seen enough oscar screener rips to know that there are usually some fuzzy section of the screen, I can only assume they take two versions and blend the two together to kill the watermarks. If they start watermarking each showing then I'd guess the pirates would start blending the cams somehow.

    4. Re:What's stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, re-shooting a bunch of scenes is much easier than, say, embedding a water mark in the picture (see above posts on red dots) or audio (this system) which can be done post-production by a computer. And no, angle to the screen is not enough to determine a position, see (the polar coordinate system). Hint, zoom lenses/cropping would make it difficult to determine distance to the screen.
       
      p.s. my captia is "record" ;-)

    5. Re:What's stupid... by jvkjvk · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they certainly don't have the budget to composite in 14 whole different images of small scale on a digital print...

  38. This is GREAT! by wirm · · Score: 1

    If you think about it, this is one of the best technologies to come along in years. This will now entice the mpaa to start investing heavily in time machines to go back and capture these people. With all the money they will invest time machines should be popping up any year now! (stay away from the dynex brand timemachine its known to have a few bugs)

    1. Re:This is GREAT! by mpe · · Score: 1

      This will now entice the mpaa to start investing heavily in time machines to go back and capture these people. With all the money they will invest time machines should be popping up any year now! (stay away from the dynex brand timemachine its known to have a few bugs)

      They also may want to avoid using any time machine which only transports living tissue. Turning up to arrest people unarmed and naked probably won't work too well and sending killer androids after them is probably a little excessive.

    2. Re:This is GREAT! by DanJ_UK · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, they've got Denzel.

      --
      - Dan
  39. Thats all good but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    how could they identify which theater the bootleg was filmed in?

  40. Doubtful by aepervius · · Score: 1

    You mean the high quality movie bootleg which are made with telecine by insider ? Because pre-release screening or after release screening, those movie are seay to recognize and of crappy quality. Not what you can find as BT even for 0D release.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  41. Simpler Solution by PuckSR · · Score: 1

    Here is a simpler solution...
    Look at the angle of the camera with respect to the screen.

  42. Wait a minute. by Aladrin · · Score: 1

    This makes no sense. You can -already- tell where someone was sitting from the video itself. The angle of the image, the angle of the top/botton and sides of the screen, etc. They don't even need to do anything extra.

    This is either bullshit or just some cockamamie plan that would never have made it to market anyhow.

    --
    "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
  43. I hope... by maddskillz · · Score: 1

    I hope there are less obtrusive then the watermark images shown. Between having to see those, and the volume being set to 11, I think I will start watching movies at home more.

  44. Time Travel or Worm Holes by Nakoruru · · Score: 1

    It is pretty obvious that they intend to send time travelers to the exact point in time and space that the pirate was recording and arrest them.

    Either that or open up a wormhole and bring them to the future for justice.

    Maybe just sent a telegram back in time to alert the past. But that is not as fun.

  45. Speaking of triangulation by kilodelta · · Score: 1

    The city of Providence, RI is looking to put in listening stations all over the city. They'd be listening for gun shots.

    Being the mischievous sort, I think building what I'd call the Shot Box would be interesting. Essentially you could mount it on a car and as you drive around it would occasionally blast out what sounds like a gun shot. It's drive the cop shop crazy.

    1. Re:Speaking of triangulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i am so anonymously reporting you right this moment ... you sneaky bastard deserve to rot in Gitmo.

    2. Re:Speaking of triangulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny to think about. Maybe not so funny to actually do, but amusing nonetheless.

  46. Hrm by fyrewulff · · Score: 1

    Maybe they should worry less about pinpointing an anonymous seat and more about actually paying the people who's IP -they- stole (example: Forrest Gump)

    When 'Hollywood accounting' ends, I'll actually care about movie piracy. Until then, it's crooks complaining about thieves.

    --
    "We need to get over this notion, that, for Apple to win... Microsoft must lose." - Steve Jobs, 1997
  47. Go For It by dufachi · · Score: 1

    Yeah. Do it. Seriously! Kill your industry! It's not dying quick enough.

    --
    -Kinsey
  48. Automatic DNA Extract by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe they'd like to contact me about my patent for a device to automatically extract the DNA of cinema and theater goers.
    It's a simple device that extracts some DNA from your buttocks when the show starts. If you read the fine print on your ticket, you'll find that you've given consent when you buy your ticket.

  49. Random Face... by supernova_hq · · Score: 2, Funny

    Just cover up the license plates on your forehead...

    1. Re:Random Face... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Warning: Obscuring your license plate is illegal in most states!

  50. Prove it by TooMad · · Score: 1

    It wouldn't hold up in court, any lawyer worth their salt could establish reasonable doubt that it could have come from any of about four seats. It could have been the person to the left, right or behind you. Nobody in those seats? Prove that someone didn't move to get a better seat. Are you going to have watermarking for the time too? Even if you made this 100% infallible it would take all of about a week for someone to write software that could trim that watermark out. For it to ever be there it would have to be below or possibly above human hearing levels and before I stick the torrent up I would just have to scrub the video.

  51. Room for error is okay... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From TFA: "With a mean estimation error of only 44 centimeters, it might be a seat off every now and then, but those are worries for later."

    After all, in the mind of the MPAA - if you're sitting next to the guy making the bootleg, you are equally as guilty.

  52. Pinpointing Pirates by Sea? by pegasustonans · · Score: 1

    Oh, pinpointing by "seat," nevermind then. I was really interested there for a second. Really big blowhorns anyone?

    --
    And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
  53. Two things... by gorehog · · Score: 1

    1)Cant you do this by using the apparent dimensions of the screen to determine the position of the camera? Given that the screen is rectangular and x*y in size you should be able to say "In the cammed version the screen appears trapezoidal. Now we can draw an imaginary line from the center of the screen out to the wall of the theater. The screen appears z large in the image (and maybe use the focus to figure zoom level) and that gives me distance from the screen.

    2)SO WHAT if you do know which seat the pirate was in. When was the last time you bought a movie ticket that had an assigned seat associated with it? I've never purchased movie tickets by seat number. Never had the chance to. It's not gonna happen. movie studios have too much invested in "first weekend sales" statistics to risk people saying "Oh, I could only get seats in the far left of the right side aisle. I'll go when I can get better seats."

    NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

    Though...I guess they could put nightvision cameras into the the theater, center position, just above the screen so they can go back and see who was in which seat during the movie. I kind of doubt it though. However, if anyone knows of this happening please make LOTS of noise about it. I like to know when I'm being covertly surveilled.

    1. Re:Two things... by gorehog · · Score: 1

      Just had another thought, what about doing the telecine at a drive in?

  54. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  55. Prior Art? by PPH · · Score: 1

    Ahhh, at last a market for my seat cushion based DNA sampler! And my colleagues all said it was just a pain in the ass... Who's laughing now?

    See Das Leben der Anderen. Perhaps the MPAA has trained some Dobermans to follow the scent.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  56. How meny movies are ripped from hotel PPV? by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    How meny movies are ripped from hotel PPV?

  57. Maybe if.... by RsJtSu · · Score: 1
    The movie companies started making good movies instead of the crap they have been rolling out. In the past year I have seen only a handful of movies that were worth the time and cost to go see them.
    Put it this way, family of 4 goes to see a movie one night: two adult tickets $20, two kids tickets $14, two drinks and popcorn $20.
    Wow, I just spent $54 and 3 hours of my time to sit in a theater and watch a sub-par movie when I could just rent/buy a movie and watch it at home for a total cost of $1 rent fee, $2.00 for 2L of soda, $5 for 8 bags of popcorn.
    AND I don't have to deal with jerk offs talking/texting/ringing in the theater.

    Make a better product, and people will pay to have it. When the product is crap, people don't mind if they get a crap version of it because there is no real loss.

  58. No, the dots serve a different purpose. by getuid() · · Score: 1, Informative

    If you mean the scratch marks that flash in the top-right corner of the image every half an hour or so: they are to demark the ending of a film role and the beginning of another. It's two flashes separated by 2-3 seconds. Immediately after the 2nd flash, the new film role is turned on. The switch of the role is usually accompaniated with a scene change in the film, to make the non-continuity less visible.

    1. Re:No, the dots serve a different purpose. by mog007 · · Score: 1

      No, he's talking about this irritating cluster of five or so red dots that flash up into the middle of the video frame, NOT the cigarette burns for changing the reels.

    2. Re:No, the dots serve a different purpose. by agola · · Score: 3, Informative
      I can't speak with firm authority but the "cigarette burns" (cues to change the reel) are simple black blobs, whereas I'm pretty sure the red-dot-matrixes being mentioned are a more recent invention, form a unique identifying grid, and aren't in the same location as the burns.

      Yep, google confirmed, here's an article on it, complete with screencaps of the burns and the grids (but you'll have to squint to see em).

    3. Re:No, the dots serve a different purpose. by Lemming42 · · Score: 1

      No, they're talking about the pattern of several red (brown) dots that appear in film frames in random parts of the movie.

    4. Re:No, the dots serve a different purpose. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not informative. Reels not roles. Cigarette burns, not scratch marks. They've been around since movies became long enough to span multiple reels... i.e. forever.

      And no, the OP does not mean that. The red dots appear within scenes and are very disturbing, and identify the reels uniquely: they are used to track pirate copies. But as others have pointed out, they are much more annoying when you know to look for them. Cipher was right. Ignorance is bliss.

    5. Re:No, the dots serve a different purpose. by Mozk · · Score: 3, Informative

      The cue marks in the top-right corner are not called "cigarette burns" and never were. That was only used in the movie Fight Club, and outside of the movie, nobody calls them that unless they are jokingly referencing it.

      --
      No existe.
    6. Re:No, the dots serve a different purpose. by StikyPad · · Score: 0, Troll

      Another fun fact: If parents are too strict or begin toilet training too early, Freud believed that an anal-retentive personality develops in which the individual is stringent, orderly, rigid, and obsessive.

    7. Re:No, the dots serve a different purpose. by StikyPad · · Score: 0, Troll

      Freud believed the obsessive compulsion for order originated in the toilet training phase. Parents who scolded their child for making a mess would, literally, cause the child to become anal-retentive.

  59. Would it be illegal to... by LunarEffect · · Score: 1

    just check the people for cameras at the entrance?

  60. "I'm a pirate" and I hate video camera capture by erroneus · · Score: 1

    Perhaps by the definition of some I am not a pirate -- just a picky customer/consumer. But I download content through various means on a regular basis whether they are my favorite TV shows or movies. But at the same time, the more that my favorite TV shows are released on DVD, the more I buy those sets and erase them from my hard drives... same goes for downloaded movies. But when it comes to a movie that is still in theaters and the source of the content is a video captured by video camera, I simply ignore it. The quality is almost ALWAYS terrible and there are idiots coughing, getting up and walking in front and all sorts of problems that are just not worth it. And if it's good enough, I will pay to see it anyway... usually... if I have time.

    But frankly, with as bad as the quality usually is, I am a little surprised that they would go to such measures to try to prevent it. In reality, all that needs to be done is flashing some infrared light at the audience and it will kill the video quality even more. Here's an experiment you can all do at home:

    Get any digital video device whether it is a web cam, a video camera or a digital camera and turn it on so that you can see the video display of what the camera sees. Now get a typical infrared remote control device and point it at the camera and push some buttons. Your eyes cannot see the IR light from the remote control but the camera certainly picks up on it really well where it looks like a bright white light. It would seem to me that all one would have to do to ruin the video camera pirates is to play some games on the infrared spectrum. For that matter, they could easily project some IR message on the screen in much the same way as a laser light show.

    All this audio crap is worthless.

    1. Re:"I'm a pirate" and I hate video camera capture by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Ever heard of an IR filter?

      --
    2. Re:"I'm a pirate" and I hate video camera capture by erroneus · · Score: 1

      IR filters pretty much also filters other frequency ranges of light as well. But even if it were tightly restricted to filtering out ONLY the IR range, it would be prohibitively expensive... all the better.

  61. If you thought IP was sane think again by Intrinsic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If this isnt an example of total insanity on behalf of intellectual property interests, I don't know what is. Going this far to catch cammers? im thinking straight jackets and ambulances for all of IP business interests that have completely lost track of all reality.

  62. six week old movies by Garganus · · Score: 1

    The only thing I'm missing is 64-channel Dobly Digital, which I'll give up any day just to sit in a theatre full of people who are there to watch a movie and not sit and IM all night.

    Couldn't agree with you more about the cell phones, but wtf is 64-channel Dolby Digital? That sounds awesome!

    1. Re:six week old movies by The+Ultimate+Fartkno · · Score: 1

      That was a completely made-up thing that combined Spinal Tap's "Dobly" reference with the neverending quest for more channels, more noises, and more everything. Sorry if I got you all excited about something that hasn't quite happened yet. ;)

  63. Assigned seating and times by phorm · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Even with assigned seating, is there some difference in the identification code that not only shows what theatre the movie is tagged to, but also the time of the showing/recording?

    What are they going to do, pull every record for a month and question those who sat around 5-A?

    1. Re:Assigned seating and times by Mozk · · Score: 1

      It's the obvious things like that that everybody misses, and I doubt that the inventors realized that either.

      But then since a lot of theaters are digital now, as in the movies are in computer files instead of on film, I'm sure they could just automatically update the code or something.

      --
      No existe.
  64. There's other audio sources by Israfels · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A lot of the higher quality rippers use the hearing impaired headphones that receive the wired or wireless transmitted audio. This sound is of much higher quality as it doesn't pick up outside noises from people sitting around.

    For every thousand dollar technology and million dollar implementation there's a $2 work-around that's free to learn about.

  65. Program authors later disappeared by transporter_ii · · Score: 1

    It seems in testing the software, they ran some old moon landing footage through the program and were able to determine exactly where the audio came from. Police have no firm leads in their disappearance.

    Transporter_ii

    --
    Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, religion destroys spirituality
  66. Easy answers to easy questions by Anarchofascist · · Score: 1

    You know I don't know why they don't just project an infrared image with the cinema's name on it on the same screen as the movie. Standard cameras will pick it up, but the human eye will miss it entirely.

    OR how about three IR leds and a fourth one on a post sticking out from the top of the screen? That three dimentionpattern should give you the precise seat location of the pirate.

    This technique, and all techniques fail IN CINEMAS WHICH DON'T IMPLEMENT THE TECH!

    --
    Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more, Or close the wall up with our American dead!
  67. If only George Orwell had... by soporific16 · · Score: 1

    ... seen this sort of culture developing and THEN had written '1984'

    1. Re:If only George Orwell had... by McGiraf · · Score: 1

      It's exactly what he did. Does not really matter if big brother is the corporation or the government.

  68. yip by dafing · · Score: 1

    really is that great here in NZ :) But dont spread the word, lets keep it our little secret!

    --
    --- ...or a new slashdot signature. Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
  69. Regarding cameras and infrared light... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't want to support the scum bag cartel that is the MPAA, but I have an idea and I would like to know if it is scientifically viable. If you've ever pointed an infrared light source at a camera, you'd notice that the light is visible through said camera. You can try this with a remote control.
          Now, what if there was a strong infrared light source in the theatre that either pointed directly at the screen, or shined out from behind the screen? This would theoretically destroy any camcorded versions of the movie. Would the customers be able to see this *in the theatre* though? I should patent this as imaginary property and sue anyone who implements it now. :)

  70. Kennedy Assasin Revealed!!!! by CuteSteveJobs · · Score: 1

    > the inventors (here's an abstract of their paper) claim it's accurate to within 44 centimeters.

    It was someone at the grassy knoll.

    CASE CLOSED!

    I can also tell you the location of the inventor's brain plus or minus 44 centimeters.

  71. This is silly. by darpo · · Score: 1

    1) I never watch "cam" quality pirated movies. The video and audio quality are awful. I'll just wait a few weeks/months for a DVD rip.

    2) I haven't been to a movie theater in about a year, and this isn't encouraging me to go back. 15 minutes of commercials at the beginning, overly loud speakers, people with their cell phones, sticky floors, people kicking the back of my seat, laser pointers, laughter at random/inappropriate times... theaters suck!

    P.S. Get off my lawn.

  72. Some people just don't get it... by dogganos · · Score: 1

    So much effort to stop the unstoppable: movie piracy. They just don't get it: Since years, we are in the digital age. Change the fuckin' business model!!! Officially give your movies for downloading for, say, 1 euro/1 dollar. Now there's a steady income, instead of the multimillion losses for fighting in courts... Damn dinosaurs!

  73. So when does TSA take over screening for movies? by Aereus · · Score: 1

    What does this company expect? That everyone is going to have to register with a photo ID and be given assigned seating to every movie?

    Besides, I thought most pirated movies were cammed after-hours by actual theater staff/owners nowadays.

  74. But that is the PLAN! by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    That way they KNOW the pirates, they are the only ones left in the theatre! It is brilliant and foolproof I tell you.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  75. You do not need ID to catch the guy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They can make a few high-resolution pictures of the theatre throughout the screening with a camera below or above the screen, then crop out the picture of the person in the seat identified. Then use that picture to pick this person out of the line the next time they visit *any* theatre - probably red-handed with a concealed camcorder.

  76. Maxx by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course all they need to do is re-encode the audio files, re-encoding changes the audio in the file and other modifications could be done to make this completely pointless.

    Another waste of time and money? I'd say so.

  77. Most priate movie I encounter... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...I mean those day zero one, or even before it air on the theater- The source are usually are from the video sent to academy reviewer for reviewing.
    They don't even brother to remove the very obvious subtitle saying that the video is only for academy reviewing process!
    I think they should watermark those video instead.

  78. Why would this matter? by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

    Last time I went to the theater I got to sit wherever I wanted...

  79. Waste. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Great. So you know where someone sat when they recorded the movie. Once it hits the net, guess what, they arn't sitting there anymore, because uhm they went home. In short this is a waste of money and time.

  80. Roomba by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More importantly, could this technology be used with my Roomba to make it smarter when vacuuming?

    XYZZY

  81. Glass half full by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are ridding the world of those awfull CAM's. Bravo.

  82. time machine required... by steak · · Score: 1

    if you look really closely at the fine print the recommended system specs mention that a time machine is required for this method to be of any use.

  83. Why local theater required assigned seats? by freepay · · Score: 1

    Maybe that's why years ago a new Philadelphia movie complex started selling assigned seats for the movies. It was awful; a staffer actually made me move back to a noisy crowd of patrons, when the theater was more than 80% empty. I haven't been back, so don't know if they are still doing it.

    --
    -- John S. James www.RepliCounts.org
  84. Well, sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "With movie pirating completely eliminated"

    Yeah, that Blu-Ray security pretty much eliminated the entire piracy thing for hidef movies.

  85. How it works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Generally it is not so hard. Algorithm is already know because similar system is used to get the location in USA's GPS system. In a such locating system You have multiple sources generating different waves and only one input, not important if this is anthena or microphone. If You have enough time and computing power you can calculate location (on earth or in the cinema) by knowing the location of signal sources. Checking source cinema is even simpler but you have to write different signature on each copy.

    Probably like with GPS it will be easy to damage signal signature if One knows what to search for. To find such 'water mark' it is enough to compare audio copies from two cinemas. So to break this system it is enough to go twice to a movie into two cinemas with a cell phone and record audio only. Therefore probably it will not last long till somebody will write a hack for it.

  86. It's useless. by awshidahak · · Score: 1

    Accurate to within 44 centimeters? That's enough the make it the person sitting next to me. Not to mention that it won't say who recorded the movie because you can get up and move to another seat at any time. Not as though the theater could even tell who was sitting where in the first place. The technology is useless because it points out nothing useful.

  87. I'm so glad by skudenfaugen · · Score: 1

    that I now know what the movie sounds like from three seats away.

  88. Seinfeld by Theoboley · · Score: 1

    I wonder if Seinfeld ever noticed this in his pirating of Rochelle Rochelle....?

    --
    Stupidity only gets you so far, then you've gotta try
  89. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Accuracy within 44 cm? That could be either of two seats. Case dismissed with prejudice!