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Adobe's ADEPT DRM Broken

An anonymous reader writes "I love cabbages has reverse-engineered Adobe's ADEPT DRM (e-book protection). On February 18, I love cabbages released code that decrypts EPUB e-books protected with ADEPT and followed that up on February 25, with code that decrypts PDF e-books protected with ADEPT. On March 4, I love cabbages was given a DMCA take down notice. And there's plenty of evidence he got it right. DS:TNG (Dmitry Sklyarov: The Next Generation)?"

273 comments

  1. and... by greengrass · · Score: 5, Insightful

    DRM is like trying to make water not wet.

    --
    The MS "no sue/patent deal" with Novell/Xandros is like the Pope blessing a Jewish wedding
    1. Re:and... by nebulus4 · · Score: 0

      Or making smoke without the fire. Oh... wait... that was a bad analogy.

      --
      "It would be wrong to refuse to face the fact that everything is fundamentally sick and sad."
    2. Re:and... by flyingfsck · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is easy to make water 'not wet'. There is lots of it out here today. Minus 21 Celsius, almost tropical.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    3. Re:and... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Funny

      Which is why "chilling effects" are a favorite technique...

    4. Re:and... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      DRM works about as well as gun control laws. It keeps honest people honest, and... well actually it doesn't even do that, since even honest people break or have an interest in breaking DRM now.

    5. Re:and... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's not quite right.

      To use Bruce Schneier's analogy, it's more like trying to make a safe secure.

      There's not such thing as a secure safe. Ultimately, it is not the locks and thick walls of a safe that protects the safe's contents. It is what economists would call "opportunity costs". Why am I wasting my time praying I can cut through this damn thing with a thermal lance before people return for work on Monday morning when I could make easier money doing something else, like panhandling or flipping burgers?

      Safes only need to be sufficiently secure that their contents aren't worth stealing; they needn't be any more secure than that. You don't buy a million dollar safe to keep your petty cash in, or for holding cheap costume jewelry. Likewise, DRM only needs to be sufficient secure that people don't bother getting around it. What the recording industry provides is not infinitely valuable, so DRM needn't be infinitely strong.

      The obsession of the recording industry with unbreakable DRM isn't rational. It probably reflects a guilty conscience.

      If I were creating a DRM scheme, for my content, I'd release the scheme with an exploit. An exploit that anybody could use, but which was a certifiable pain in the ass. It's going to be broken sooner or later, so why not remove the incentive to make a convenient exploit? Anybody who is chary of losing access to their DRM purchases is reassured that they will always have access to it, but the vast majority won't ever bother. Of course that means the content would appear illegal sharing sites, but that was going to happen anyway.

      In a sense, that's where Apple is with Fairplay. It's been cracked for ages, but at $0.99/track, almost nobody bothers.

    6. Re:and... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Right.

      The problem is that the Entertainment/Industrial Complex believes there's a lot more money in the safe than there really is.

      The "Sita Sings the Blues" case proves that. Somebody thought that the intellectual "property" of a handful of songs from the 1930's was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. They were wrong.

      So they take their anger out on "I love cabbages" and The Pirate Bay. It's futile, but try telling that to someone who's enraged that the "Rolex" they bought was really a fugazi.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    7. Re:and... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple do keep adjusting fairplay actually. Last time I checked, only the latest OSX version of Requiem could break the current iTunes build.

    8. Re:and... by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      To extend this analogy, a PC is like a safe to which you have to hide the key in the same room. Because in order to allow legitimate users access, the decryption mechanism including key must be in a piece of software on the PC.
      AFAIK all purely software based DRM schemes have been cracked within a few months so far (systems which hide the key in special hardware do better, see game consoles). And some people do it for the challenge, so the argument with opportunity costs does not work.

      If I were creating a DRM scheme, for my content, I'd release the scheme with an exploit. An exploit that anybody could use, but which was a certifiable pain in the ass. It's going to be broken sooner or later, so why not remove the incentive to make a convenient exploit?

      Now you have created an incentive to create a user-friendly wrapper for the pain in the ass exploit. Which probably requires less hacking skill.

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    9. Re:and... by sjames · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Far worse for them, unlike the safe, anyone can take a 'crack' at it with no risk whatsoever. Nobody ever got carted off to jail because they were discovered cracking the DRM on Monday morning. You have as long as you care to spend to crack it.

      For some, the entertainment value of cracking the DRM (think of it as a puzzle) far exceeds the value (to them) of the content. Then, of course, there's the value of being recognized as an 'uber hacker' if you're the first to crack it. The harder the DRM is, the greater that value is.

      Because of that, weaker DRM might actually keep the content locked up longer (I believe that's what you're getting at by releasing DRM with an exploit). That certainly would reduce the entertainment value of finding a second way in.

    10. Re:and... by dhaines · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is easy to make water not wet. Not so easy to keep it not wet for the long term though -- at least not without constant maintenance or putting it in a place where people don't generally like to live.

      DRM: the arctic for content. (Additional costs may apply. Subject to climatic variation.)

    11. Re:and... by wild_quinine · · Score: 1

      Which is why "chilling effects" are a favorite technique...

      That's fucking brilliant. Anyone who thinks word play is not one of the higher forms of a self-referential intelligence, compare this to anything you've ever said, and then kill yourselves.

    12. Re:and... by Tuoqui · · Score: 1

      What the recording industry provides is not infinitely valuable, so DRM needn't be infinitely strong.

      No they just BELIEVE that what they provide is infinitely valuable. That is why they have an obsession with unbreakable DRM>

      --
      09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
      +2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
    13. Re:and... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      There is just a slight in your safe-analogy.

      DRM is supposed to be made to protect the contents from exactly the person that is supposed to be the only one with access to it.

      Additionally, the analogy is also false in using the word "stealing". There is no stealing involved in copying. Look up the terms.

      You too, Bruce Schneier.

      Oh, and someone would come up with a simpler exploit to your "scheme". After all it's a computer. It's automatable. Even if most users never automated anything on their system, (they just used automations of others,) this is the whole point of a computer.
      As long as people do not get, that giving a CPU of a user a list of commands, to turn against their master, makes no sense, there will be further scams by DRM software developers.

      The vast majority will look on gamecopyworld.com, pirate bay, astalavista.box.sk or some P2P search, and need a whole minute, to find that simpler exploit. Just as with (nearly?) every software they have installed.

      The only reason Apple is successful, is that finally, someone came close to what clients are actually think that stuff is worth. Nearly everyone wants to give something back. But nearly nobody wants to be ripped off for the shit big labels produce.
      It went so far, that even if they would throw out the next Britney Spears clone's album for free, I would not take it. They would have to pay me, and sign a NDA, so they don't tell anybody. ^^

      Meanwhile, in another reality, all my music money goes to Internet radio stations, promoting artists that I never heard of, and concerts.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    14. Re:and... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Somehow, the "error" after the "slight", got eaten by a grue. I'm sorry. I will try to bring a wind-proof torch the next time.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    15. Re:and... by adiposity · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your attempts to make it a "certifiable pain in the ass" will be rendered as useless as the attempts to an DRM "uncrackable" will be. Instead of having to find a way to crack the DRM, they will start with one. Their only job will be to make it quick and easy. And if the "pain in the ass" method is too ugly to automate, they will properly crack your DRM and make it even easier. Since an exploit is already known, a "proper" crack might even be easier to create.

      And Fairplay has been cracked for ages, but Apple keeps changing it to make it a PITA to always have access to the latest crack. That's where the future of DRM lies: change the codes every week and have devices that can download the latest codes. Pretty soon it just sucks to be an uncertified client. Sure, you can always find a way around it if you really need to (say you need to move your entire iTunes library to another computer because your old computer is being upgraded), but for casual piracy, not worth it.

      -Dan

    16. Re:and... by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Exactly. And in the end, how do you actually listen to that music?

      By giving the CPU a list of commands to decode it, and a key. Who controls the CPU? Me. (Not all of them! Yet? ^^)

      So you (GP) just gave me the key and the decrypting code. TYVM.

      I can extract it, and make a small tool of it. Put in on the whole net (a la Streisand effect). And you're done.

      Do you (P) know what's the most funny thing?
      They act as if we oooh-soo-want their "precious" music.
      I can't remember the last time I listened to "charts" music.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    17. Re:and... by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      Sooo, EXACTLY like gun control then.

    18. Re:and... by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I don't think the recording industry cares about unbreakable DRM. They put enough on there for it to be a PITA for a non-geek to crack, which in there view, is enough to preserve their beloved profits (well that, and a few thousand obsessive law suits).

    19. Re:and... by buzzn · · Score: 1

      > To use Bruce Schneier's analogy, it's more like trying to make a safe secure.

      I learned this as "Locks are for honest people"

      (It occurs to me... so cracking DRM is for... who?)

      --
      Join the window installer's union, where prosperity is a brick throw away!
    20. Re:and... by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Thats not water, its ice. And when i get it down my ski jacket I still get wet ;)

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    21. Re:and... by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      There is an important difference. If I put the time and expertise into cracking the digital safe, I can then distribute the crack so anyone can use without expertise or time.

      And yet another difference. I can put the contents of the safe on bittorrent.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    22. Re:and... by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Couldn't you just, you know, freeze it?

    23. Re:and... by PRMan · · Score: 1

      This is pretty much exactly what DirecTV has done with their new receiver cards.

      I still know a couple people getting around them, but they spend 10+ hours a week doing it, which is more than it costs even at minimum wage.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    24. Re:and... by WiseWeasel · · Score: 1

      All it takes is a single day when the latest version of iTunes DRM has been cracked for you to export your entire content library to standard format DRM-free. Then, you don't care about when they update iTunes again, as you just ditch all the protected content and use the DRM-free copies. Only if you keep purchasing DRM'd content after they update their scheme to close the last exploit, after you're aware of the usage limitations involved, are you still going to be stuck with DRM'd content. At that point, it's difficult to have any sympathy for you if you find yourself unable to access your content in the manner you desire. Personally, I just don't buy content with DRM that I can't easily and conveniently crack.

      --
      "I like systems, their application excepted", George Sand (French)
    25. Re:and... by AnalPerfume · · Score: 1

      This always reminds me of some factual kids show I saw when I was young, where they explained that water is not actually wet; it's the effect it gives when it touches something that's wet.

      I do agree though, DRM is totally pointless; it's only going to piss off the people who are actually buying your stuff, and force more of them to get illegal copies of stuff they bought so they can use it the way they want. After a while they may end up deciding not to reward companies who insist on using DRM infested shit.

    26. Re:and... by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      Safes only need to be sufficiently secure that their contents aren't worth stealing; they needn't be any more secure than that. You don't buy a million dollar safe to keep your petty cash in, or for holding cheap costume jewelry. Likewise, DRM only needs to be sufficient secure that people don't bother getting around it. What the recording industry provides is not infinitely valuable, so DRM needn't be infinitely strong.

      The key difference is, if I can break the safe, I've broken one safe and I'll have to work somewhat less on the next one. If I make a program that can crack a particular DRM, I can distribute that algoritm/application and anyone can do it just as well as I can.
      So the DRM has to protect it like it's invaluable, because the value is equivalent to EVERY sale out there. Or you can just accept that there is no amount of DRM that will stop a sufficiently motivated group of people who are allowed to actually use the content.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    27. Re:and... by jakykong · · Score: 1

      I almost agree with you. But I think your analogy is flawed. There are materially significant differences between DRM and a safe.

      Difference #1: DRM is like a bank that puts your money in a safe and won't let you take it out. Sure, you can break into their safe and take your money out. But you shouldn't need to do that: once you buy your music (etc.), it should be yours to do with what you want, including put it in a safe. As far as the spaghetti analogy goes: the restaurant may want to keep you from eating their spaghetti, but it makes no sense to keep you from seeing the picture on the menu.

      Difference #2: Break one DRM-encumbered file, and you break all DRM-encumbered files, within the domain of that DRM system. I mean, we can speak of "breaking fairplay" or "cracking CSS" -- an entire DRM system can be broken. If you were talking about safes, that would be like breaking into one safe in someone's back yard, and every safe made by the same manufacturer will open at the same moment. It doesn't work that way. So with DRM, the security needs to be so strong that literally nobody can break it, because even if the contents inside aren't worth very much, their cumulative value can be much higher: and that's the value that's really inside the safe, so to speak.

      The second difference is key: it's the one the music industry keeps looking at. Every time someone cracks their DRM, they have to go out and make a completely new DRM system to keep pace. For them, it's a little bit like they have 1,000 safe crackers trying to get at their one safe, and all they can do is buy a new safe when someone opens it, because there's no question that someone will open it at some point.

    28. Re:and... by adiposity · · Score: 1

      Man, I screwed up that first sentence. Should have said, "as useless as the attempts to make DRM 'uncrackable'..."

    29. Re:and... by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      There is a slight flaw to that analogy.

      When it comes to cracking safes, you need to set about each one with industrial cutters with exactly the same effort as the last one, and the one before that. It never gets any easier to crack a safe.

      When it comes to cracking DRM, it only needs to be done once. Once a particular DRM system has been cracked, and cracking software for it distributed, anyone can crack that DRM with very little effort. While Mr Hacksalot had to spend days and weeks of work breaking a DRM, each subsequent pirate need only to use his software. Not only that, but once a song/movie/game/ebook has been cracked, and it gets into the ecosystem of torrents and file distributors, anyone can download it. If I want to download a cracked copy of Spore then I can- I don't need to crack it again myself.

      A safe is a good deterrent. To steal from a safe, I need to put a lot of effort in, me personally. DRM is not- once it is broken the first time, it may as well have never been there in the first place.

    30. Re:and... by dandaman32 · · Score: 1

      ...and global climate change. Alright Al Gore, keep it going buddy!

    31. Re:and... by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      Extending still further...

      The DRM on DVD's was initially thought to be hard to break. But the lock on the safe was designed internally and eventually found to be vulnerable to a pick gun. You didn't need to find the key in the room, since a tool could be built that could push the pins in the lock to the right position in a matter of seconds.

      With more modern DRM, eg AACS on HD-DVD's and BlueRay players. They've actually consulted with the best safe builders and used standard components to build it. The lock on the safe isn't vulnerable. You could be sitting there trying random keys for your entire life and you wont find one. They've even built a second smaller safe in the room to store the key. And this safe can be opened by a number of keys that each guard (software or hardware player) has on their belt. The guards keys, and the key in the smaller safe can be replaced as new contents are stored in the main safe. So at best we now face a continual arms race of new keys being issued and discovered.

      Alright I think I've pushed that as far as I can...

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    32. Re:and... by erayd · · Score: 1

      Aah, but you only get wet if you remove the DRM (aka melt the ice).

      --
      Forget world peace, bring on -1 pointless
    33. Re:and... by H3g3m0n · · Score: 1

      Except its not like a safe at all...

      The quote only really makes sense when your talking about a world where the only force is money, but thats not the case here, people break DRM for their own ethical, moral reasons, to prevent locking, or probably more often just for fun or because its convenient. (There could be money in it too if your breaking a competitors DRM, Maybe Amazon broke Adobes DRM to drive more authors to Kindel). In the end people aren't trying to break DRM so they can sell bootlegged copies of the content.

      Once the DRM is broken, it might as well not exist since if the DRM ever actually becomes a problem for someone, they can just grab the tool.

      You only need 1 person on the planet to break it and spread the information of how its done then that DRM is dead for good and everything ever encrypted with it is now accessible.

      And only 99c a song isn't really enough, the price might not matter but convince is a big issue. Its easier for me to grab an album of PirateBay, I don't have to enter any credit card information and it's more continent after since. I'm not locked into Apple.

      Perhapses on the individual scale (say giving a copy to a friend), removing the DRM isn't worth the effort, but the alternative involves the friend downloading another copy of the content either legitimately or illegally, its just as easy either way. Or just not getting the content at all.

      --
      cat /dev/urandom > .sig
    34. Re:and... by Karljohan · · Score: 1

      I believe that what's in the safe is so much more than the song itself, our freedom for one thing, so even though the song stolen is not worth much there is a strong incentive for cracking the safe.

    35. Re:and... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But you're missing an important point there. When you're a burglar opening a safe, you have invested a certain amount of work, but that work does not help anyone else: anyone else trying to open a safe will have to go through the same process again.

      With DRM, all it takes is one person to crack it, and a file can, in principle, be made available to *everyone*. In fact, chances are that the DRM-breaking will be general enough to not just apply to one particular file - tools will be released, and it'll become easy to remove the DRM from *any* file encumbered by the same DRM.

      In fact, if you do look at sites like the Pirate Bay, you'll find that unless something is so obscure that nobody thought of uploading it, you WILL find everything you could want on there. So what difference has DRM actually made there?

      The answer is "none". And that, in turn, is strong evidence that either a) DRM isn't working out as planned, or b) it is working out as planned, but wasn't intended to stop copyright infringement in the first place.

  2. Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by tjstork · · Score: 0, Troll

    It's rather comical that so many people out there are trying to break DRM and band themselves as allies of the open source movement in some way. The thing is, the legal framework, the right of the copyright holder to issue a license, is the same for software with DRM as it is without. If we have a legal system where copying images, songs and books is tolerated, then we also have a legal system where taking GPL code and subverting it will be tolerated as well.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Nursie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Non-sequitur

      Opening up DRM'd media so that it can legally be used in more situations by someone with a valid license is not the same as rampant piracy. Removing DRM so that consumers have a choice over how and when to use content they have paid for is a great thing.

      It is regrettable that these developments are also massive boosts for piracy, but without this sort of action there would be no DVD playback on Linux.

    2. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by The+Warlock · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because sometimes (read: very often) the DRM will prevent the end-user from exercising rights he would have under standard Fair Use doctrines.

      --
      I've upped my standards, so up yours.
    3. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by guruevi · · Score: 3, Informative

      Licensing is not copyright. Licensing is a contract you enter in depending on whether you want to use certain programs and it's code associated with. You can choose not to buy/use/change the program or you can haggle for better fitting licensing (whether it be cost or freedom). If you don't like it, make your own program that does the same job but better (or cheaper).

      Copyright is forced upon you whenever the creator creates his product. Even if you go to a library or book store and DON'T buy the book, the thing is still copyrighted and you can't make copies of it nor can you make a similar book with the same or a similar story.

      Copyrights are like patents in software/hardware. They prevent you from improving upon a certain work and they effectively lock the competition out of making anything that is vaguely similar or even an extension of a book.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    4. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I can't believe that this nonsense keeps being repeated. The GPL (a license I don't really like, but respect) is a distribution license. It follows both the spirit and the letter of copyright law, allowing the original author to restrict how people copy their work. DRM, in contrast, restricts how people use their work. This is counter to the spirit of copyright law - there's a reason it's called copyright not useright - and is antithetical to Free Software. Note that even laws like the DMCA talk about copy protection, rather than DRM. They are not the same thing. Copy protection only prevents copying, while DRM prevents various forms of use, for example annotating a PDF or playing a DVD from a different country.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, it's not comical.

      While the GPL technically relies on copyright laws, it's a copyleft.

      So while GPL-activists and DRM-circumventers look to be incompatible, this is only a technical issue.

      If you look at the "content" side, most free software guys are fully anti-DRM, as this limits what the user can do with "his copy of the book", "his copy of the application", ...

      You'll also notice that the cases where companies where sued over GPL violations where all cases where the company restricted what the user could do with his hardware. I do not think that there have been problems for companies that are open and just forgot to push a source package online.

      Basically, I'm ready to pay for content, but only as long I'm allowed to use it in my context. That implies that I'm able to read it on my mobile, on my laptop, and in some extreme cases I've printed out whole chapters (in the office, when my mobile was exhausted and I did know that I had a long ride home).

      Notice that I'm an extreme case, as I prefer the ebook version my mobile over the printed book anytime, but then I'm atypical in many ways.

    6. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Copyright law" does not equal "technological enforcement of whatever terms somebody feels like enforcing".

      While some DRM-crackers are indeed, more or less unrelated(you don't see GPL proponents celebrating the availability of cracked copies of proprietary software), the DRM-crackers who stand up for our freedom to own and control our computers, rather than the other way around, have pretty much exactly the same objective as core GPL proponents.

    7. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BEGIN SARCASM

      I am shocked, shocked that we have such pseudophilosophical, marginalist rationalizations for copyright infringement on slashdot.

      END SARCASM

    8. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by dna_(c)(tm)(r) · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The thing is, the legal framework, the right of the copyright holder to issue a license, is the same for software with DRM as it is without.

      True, that is copyright law for you. But the issue is whether the copyright holder can artificially expand his own rights or arbitrarily restrict the end users rights.

      E.g. I recently encountered a company that sold pdf(?) documents you can only read with an active internet connection. Reading on the train/plane is impossible or very expensive.

      If we have a legal system where copying images, songs and books is tolerated, then we also have a legal system where taking GPL code and subverting it will be tolerated as well.

      Also true, but this part is about enforcing the law. You could substitute 'taking GPL code and subverting it' with 'throwing bombs','murdering innocent children' as well. Of course, that's insinuating copying is a very bad crime. Which it is not. It's mildly naughty.

    9. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by amiga3D · · Score: 5, Funny

      If anyone other than fat, neck-bearded, Cheeto-stained, basement-dwelling gruntwaffles actually *used* Linux

      Hey! I am not a gruntwaffle! Or....maybe I am...WTF is a "gruntwaffle?"

    10. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by dna_(c)(tm)(r) · · Score: 1

      Sorry, clicked the wrong button

      My point is that all DRM schemes hinder legitimate users to some degree and never actually prevent copying.

    11. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If we have a legal system where copying images, songs and books is tolerated, then we also have a legal system where taking GPL code and subverting it will be tolerated as well."

      So? Copyright is already way too large in scope. The GPL is a little hack designed to voluntarily give up rights on your stuff, but I believe that FOSS in general is starting to outgrow the copyright system. I mean, the GPL is a good hack to make freedom compatible under our current copyright regime. But in reality we should be campaigning to have copyright and patents either repealed, made unconstitutional, or dramatically reduced in scope and size. Currently they are nothing more than a way to leech off the work of productive people and countries by weakening property rights and charging monopoly rents on the economy.

      (examples: monsanto's creation of GM crops that invade other crops with patented genes allowing them to sue you, big pharma charging 3rd world countries up the ass for pills and drugs they need because they can sue anyone in the world that makes their own, microsoft trying to block Linux from reading FAT filesystems, the kajillions of patent trolls suing game console manufacturers for having a controller)

      I do realize that DRM and GPL have piss-all to do with each other. But the second part of your argument, that one type of sharing (TPB, filesharing) is now anathema to another type of sharing (GPL copyleft), is correct.

      The GPL makes FOSS too reliant on copyright law to actually petition for any reduction in terms. And that's the worst position we can be in since the copyright and patent laws aren't spec'd for creating rules for sharing. They are spec'd for creating monopolies and encouraging neo-colonialism. While we should be using the GPL in the interim to protect our stuff, we should not be forgetting about the greater goal of copyright reform. Otherwise, we have a case in which two freedom fighters are against each other because of the way they operate, thus weakening all of us.

      Compare the situation with constutional law, where we have one big lobby group (ACLU) to defend one block of amendments, and another big lobby group (NRA) to defend another block of amendments. In reality this means that one side doesn't take action when the other side's amendments are being defiled, and the fight becomes much harder.

    12. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Opening up DRM'd media so that it can legally be used in more situations by someone with a valid license is not the same as rampant piracy.

      As a rights-holder? Bull. Shit. "You have the right to use content provided you do so in a manner consistent with the license provided with it." That's the same basic principle protected in the GPL, as well as in DRM-licensing terms.

      Removing DRM so that consumers have a choice over how and when to use content they have paid for is a great thing.

      So, to use your argument, if I wanted to argue that I should have the RIGHT to use the Linux kernel however I see fit (including, potentially, in a closed-source application), you'd be in favor of that. Because that should be my right as a consumer of the code, to determine how I want to use it... right.... right? Sorry, but that's not how it works. If the GPL rights-holder gets to use copyright law to dictates "terms of use" for GPL'ed content, then the DRM'ed rights-holder gets to use copyright law to dictate THEIR terms of use as well. If you don't like those terms, feel free to use something else, just as lots of people who don't like GPL license terms use BSD or even (gasp!) closed-source code.

    13. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am shocked, shocked that we have such pseudophilosophical, marginalist rationalizations for copyright infringement on slashdot.

      They have these adult education centers where I live. They specialize in things like helping people who should be old enough to know better improve their reading comprehension skill.

      You should look in to it, it would keep you from making an ass out of yourself on sites like Slashdot.

    14. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The rights-holder is the sole arbiter of the "conditions of the distribution of their content". If they want to distribute content to you which you are forbidden to use in months which end in "Y" that is their right. You're free as a consumer to say "that's horse-shit," and not purchase their content at all. But at the end of the day, the copy of the content was given to you, after an exchange of moneys, based on an agreement (the license agreement). If you're unhappy with the license agreement you're now bound by, please feel free to read the license more closely in the future. If the license wasn't adequately provided to you prior to purchase (e.g., license agreements INSIDE software boxes, etc.) feel free to use the court system to get your money back, or to prove that those particular agreements are invalid. But what you don't get to do is simply ignore the copyright restriction when it isn't convenient for you.

    15. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by js_sebastian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Opening up DRM'd media so that it can legally be used in more situations by someone with a valid license is not the same as rampant piracy.

      As a rights-holder? Bull. Shit. "You have the right to use content provided you do so in a manner consistent with the license provided with it." That's the same basic principle protected in the GPL, as well as in DRM-licensing terms.

      You fail (again). The GPL does not, in any way, restrict your use of the licensed code. It only restricts the way you redistribute that code (if you should choose to do so). And, newsflash, even if the GPL wanted to restrict your use, it couldn't, because the GPL is based on copyright law. A license can only grant you MORE freedom than is already allowed to you by copyright law. And copyright law regulates distribution, not private usage.

    16. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Ephemeriis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's rather comical that so many people out there are trying to break DRM and band themselves as allies of the open source movement in some way. The thing is, the legal framework, the right of the copyright holder to issue a license, is the same for software with DRM as it is without. If we have a legal system where copying images, songs and books is tolerated, then we also have a legal system where taking GPL code and subverting it will be tolerated as well.

      The GPL is a license that dictates how a work can be copied and distributed - which was the intent of copyrights originally. To control who can copy and/or distribute a work, to make sure that the author actually gets something for their effort.

      DRM, on the other hand, restricts how someone who already has a copy of the work is able to use it. DRM keeps me from reading my ebook on the device of my choice. DRM keeps me from listening to my music on the device of my choice. DRM keeps me from re-installing the software that I purchased because it has been activated too many times.

      Most folks on here, and in the open source community at large, don't really have a huge problem with copyright. They may have issues with various current implementations or protection periods... But most folks are ok with the idea of an author/creator getting paid for their work in some way.

      DRM though... DRM isn't about keeping people from making unauthorized copies. DRM is about selling people one copy of a movie for their DVD player, and a second copy for their PC, and a third copy for their iPod. DRM is about the middle-men (not the content creators) dictating how you use the content.

      --
      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
    17. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Chyeld · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The GPL is an additive license. You don't loose the right to do anything under it, you gain the right to do things you weren't otherwise allowed if you follow it.

      The DRM license an eBook is published under is subtractive, you don't gain anything from the license that your money hasn't already purchased. The sole point of the license is to force you to give up rights 'in favor' of the rights holder position.

      Apples and Oranges my friend.

      When you come up with a DRM backed license that at leasst actually gives, in exchange for what it's taking, something of value, then you might have an arguement. Till then, when I purchase a book, I expect to be able to use it. And since the law explicitly allows circumvention of DRM for the purposes of interoptability, I'd say so does the law.

    18. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Microlith · · Score: 1, Troll

      Copyrights are like patents in software/hardware.

      Yeah, so we should abolish copyrights and watch what happens as TPB gets flooded short term with existing works, and the amount of newly created works that show up on the site trickles to a near standstill. Yeah.

      Let's screw creators over completely, show them what they get for going out on a limb. Yeah.

    19. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by MyDixieWrecked · · Score: 1

      Opening up DRM'd media so that it can legally be used in more situations by someone with a valid license is not the same as rampant piracy

      Agreed.

      You have no idea how often I run into issues where some file won't play/can't be viewed on some device because it doesn't support the DRM. I've run into this with audio files (iTunes Store), PDFs, videos and ebooks.

      I don't see why DRM'd media files must be tied to the device rather than the user. Why not have some kind of public key that authorizes the file? Of course there are issues with sharing the key, but there could be ways around that, too (device key negotiations with the DRM server).

      Although... not having DRM at all would be the best case scenario.

      --



      ...spike
      Ewwwwww, coconut...
    20. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 0

      Copyright law allows the rights-holder to determine the conditions upon which they are willing to give you rights to use the content. If the rights-holder says "I'm not going to give you this content unless you give me $20," that's perfectly valid. As is "I'm not going to give you this content unless you give me $20 and agree to the following terms and conditions..." So no, YOU fail, good sir, for not understanding the basic interactions of copyright and contract law here.

    21. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by syzler · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So, to use your argument, if I wanted to argue that I should have the RIGHT to use the Linux kernel however I see fit (including, potentially, in a closed-source application), you'd be in favor of that. Because that should be my right as a consumer of the code, to determine how I want to use it... right.... right?

      That is correct. You are able to personally use GPL software in a closed-source application. You are, however, unable to distribute said close source software with the GPL software.

      Sorry, but that's not how it works. If the GPL rights-holder gets to use copyright law to dictates "terms of use" for GPL'ed content, then the DRM'ed rights-holder gets to use copyright law to dictate THEIR terms of use as well. If you don't like those terms, feel free to use something else, just as lots of people who don't like GPL license terms use BSD or even (gasp!) closed-source code.

      Actually, I am pretty sure that is exactly how it works. Under the fair use doctrine I am allowed to personally use a valid copy of a copyrighted work as I see fit, but I am unable to (in most cases) to distribute the work.

      BTW, I am a rights-holder and I have used both open and closed source licensing. As a rights-holder, why would I care if they choose to use my applications in a manner other than prescribed so long as they do not distribute the software without my permission?

    22. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 1
      DRM *is* based on copyright law, with a mix of contract law thrown in for good measure.

      A rights-holder can say "I won't allow my content to be distributed to you unless you pay me $20." That's fairly straight-forward.

      A rights-holder can ALSO say "I won't allow my content to be distributed to you unless you pay me $20 AND agree to the following Terms and Conditions...."

      By entering into the contract (which permitted the content to be distributed to you in the first place) you have willingly given up some rights, such as the right to crack open the file and do whatever you want with it.

      Now, as previously noted, if the contract-portion of that agreement isn't adequately addressed in advance, you may potentially have recourse under contract law, etc., but that's not necessarily carte blanche to break the DRM.

    23. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by bentcd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The rights-holder is the sole arbiter of the "conditions of the distribution of their content".

      No, the courts are.

      If they want to distribute content to you which you are forbidden to use in months which end in "Y" that is their right.

      No, it is not. Once the product has been sold to you the rights holder has nothing to say about how you use it so long as you stick to what copyright law allows you to do with it.

      But at the end of the day, the copy of the content was given to you, after an exchange of moneys, based on an agreement (the license agreement).

      No, it was not. It was sold to you as a product, and it is a product that you can use according to what is permitted by copyright law. You only need a /license/ if you intend to put it to uses that copyright law does not permit.

      As for what copyright law allows you to do, it allows you to use the product in the expected manner (that is, listen to music or watch a film) and some jurisdictions even allow you to make backup copies of it. There will tend to be a myriad other things you can also do with it without having to get permission from the rights holder.

      --
      sigs are hazardous to your health
    24. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rights-holder is the sole arbiter of the "conditions of the distribution of their content". If they want to distribute content to you which you are forbidden to use in months which end in "Y" that is their right.

      Just because you keep repeating this doesn't make it true.
      You have certain legal rights which *override* any license you may or may not have agreed to.
      Just because the license says "we can without explanation stop you using this content at any time" and you agree to it *does not mean that clause has any legal effect*. Any court would rule that it was an entirely unfair and unreasonable clause and that your rights under consumer law *to use the product you paid for* take precendence.

      In other words, a license as a form of contract is not written in blood. It is subject to compliance with the law. Or have you never seen those disclaimers in licenses which effectively say 'all of this contract applies unless local law says it doesn't, in which case all the remaining bits still apply after removing the bits which have been struck out'? These clauses make it quite clear that even the companies producing these licenses know that your view on this matter is completely wrong.

    25. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by multisync · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm really getting tired of these same straw men getting trotted out every time the issue of DRM comes up.

      So, to use your argument, if I wanted to argue that I should have the RIGHT to use the Linux kernel however I see fit (including, potentially, in a closed-source application), you'd be in favor of that.

      You bet. You may use GPL software in any way you see fit. Freedom 0 guarentees that:

      Freedom 0: The freedom to run the program for any purpose.

      In fact, the license specifically forbids a copyright holder from taking steps to control how you use the software. The GPL only puts restrictions on how the software is distributed. The only person being restricted by the GPL is the copyright holder.

      This is as it should be.

      DRM has nothing to do with copyright. It's purpose is to controls access to the copyrighted work, to control how the person who paid for the copyrighted work uses it.

      DRM is an attempt by copyright holders to claim additional rights for themselves beyond what copyright allows for. In many cases, it prevents citizens from exercising fair use without defeating it, making it incompatible with copyright law. If a copyright holder wishes to employ DRM, they should forfeit copyright protection, as they are not holding up their end of the bargain.

      ... right.... right?

      You know, one fucking "right" will do, thanks.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    26. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dredd,

      You miss Nursie's point with your analogy. What's being said is that people should be able to open up content for personal use. So a more fitting analogy would be that it's like hacking up the linux kernel and putting it on your Playstation 3, and then hacking it up again to put it on your Nintendo DS.

      This is totally okay, until you go to distrubute it. Personal use is the key.

      Nursie did NOT say that it was okay to purchase content, repackage it, and then sell it for a profit.

      I understand that when your livelihood is directly impacted by piracy it can be difficult to make a rational argument, but I hope that you can come to a point where you can understand the separation between piracy and fair use.

      If I want to play an mp3 that I purchased on my brand new mp3 player that doesn't handle the itunes DRM, shouldn't I be permitted to alter the format of that content so that I can still use it?

      DRM, especially of the proprietary is designed more to protect the device manufacturer than it does to protect the copyright holder.

      If I own 40,000+ iTunes songs, and nobody else can play their DRM format, then when my iPod breaks is it right that I should be forced into a decision between throwing out my library at great cost, or buying another apple product, even if there are better products on the market?

      The rhetoric that each instance of piracy is a "lost" sale doesn't really fly, because most people who are pirating would simply do without. Making content available simply gets your content out there to people who most likely wouldn't have paid for it anyway.

      Now piracy for profit....I say THAT is precisely the situation for which copyright was originally designed!

    27. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      If you agree to the license on the content before downloading, which you pretty much have to do for any legitimate download, you probably also agreed to not copy it or attempt to break the DRM for any reason.

      So if the GPL is valid because it controls what you can and can't do with the software after you get it, why is it that the DRM you agreed to when you purchased the content is any different?

      I think DRM is complete shit, but treating it differently than GPL just because you like GPL and not DRM is retarded. Everyone has to play by the same set of rules for everything, like it or not, or the system breaks down and no one respects anything, GPL or DRM.

      You don't get to ignore licensing agreements for things you don't like, but require others to respect the ones you do like.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    28. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      It is regrettable that these developments are also massive boosts for piracy

      No, it is not.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    29. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I am shocked, shocked that we have such pseudophilosophical, marginalist rationalizations for copyright infringement on slashdot.

      And I'm shocked that there are so many people here who believe "copyright" is anything but a land grab for those who cannot create.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    30. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Copyright law allows the rights-holder to determine the conditions upon which they are willing to give you rights to use the content.

      Wrongo. There is only one condition, and that is that the purchaser make no unauthorized copies. That condition is part of the law and has fuckall to do with the wishes of the "rights-holder".

    31. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

      BTW, I am a rights-holder and I have used both open and closed source licensing. As a rights-holder, why would I care if they choose to use my applications in a manner other than prescribed so long as they do not distribute the software without my permission?

      Maybe you don't care. But maybe, just maybe, you do. (For instance, perhaps you're a rights-holder who wants to say "you cannot use this content to help kill people" to prevent the military from using it, or whatever). The point is that while you or I may not necessarily care "how" someone uses it, some people DO care how people use it, and they've got the right to have you agree not to use it in a conflicting way before they give you the content.

    32. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

      Once the product has been sold to you the rights holder has nothing to say about how you use it so long as you stick to what copyright law allows you to do with it.

      Not if you agreed (via a license agreement) not to use in on days that end in "Y".

      No, it was not. It was sold to you as a product,

      It was content, distributed to you by the rights-holder under their right to distribute (as rights-holder) after an agreement by you to terms and conditions of that distribution, namely what you could and could not do with the content after you received it.

    33. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by steelfood · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Copyright law allows the rights-holder to determine the conditions upon which they are willing to give you rights to use the content.

      Wow. You failed twice in a row, and some idiot mod still modded you up.

      Copyright. Read it carefully. Say it out loud. It is literally the right to copy. Copyright only deals with redistribution, whether in original or modified form. It does not deal with usage. Get it into your thick skull already; copyright cannot stop you from using what you bought the way you want it. It only stops you from copying what you bought and giving it to others. (Fair use covers the part where you copy something for backup purposes.)

      Seesh. Get it right, or go troll somewhere else.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    34. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by steelfood · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Wow, all the trolls have come out of the woodwork.

      What makes you think people are going to stop creating works of art just because somebody else is going to copy them? What makes you think that people are going to stop singing, painting, writing, telling stories, just because somebody else can sing the same song, paint the same picture, write the same words and tell the same stories?

      Without copyright, people might not make money out of it. But nobody says people are supposed to make money for everything they do. Making money is not a right.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    35. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by domatic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      For instance, perhaps you're a rights-holder who wants to say "you cannot use this content to help kill people" to prevent the military from using it, or whatever).

      Contract law isn't a candy store. I may want to stipulate that one sign over his arm, leg, and first born child but very few courts on this planet will enforce it. And there HAVE been licenses that forbid military use or government use but those are institutions that at least under some circumstances CAN disregard contract, copyright, or even patent law. This disregard is either extended by legislative fiat or they just do it and dare you to come enforce it.

      So yes, there are wishes a rights holder may have that he can't enforce with either contract or copyright law. And in keeping with DRM, there are wishes a rights holder may have that won't be enforced by the laws of physics and mathematics either.

    36. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by g0rAngA · · Score: 1

      I'm tired and I'm low on coffee, so these thoughts aren't fully formed yet, but the GPL doesn't restrict the end-user.

      If you want to use the linux kernel in a closed-source program, then go ahead! Just don't expect to be able to distribute your project.

      A good example of this is the nvidia module, which is of course, closed-source, mostly. Theres the open source part (which might be GPL'd), and theres the binary blob, which you couldn't distribute as part of a precompiled kernel. Instead, you distribute it as a seperate module. The user is allowed to insert it into the kernel, despite the fact that it isn't GPL'd.

      DRM is just a little different, and I can see where people might get a little confused as to weather its a good thing or not. Ultimately, I define a failed DRM scheme as one that stops me from doing anything legit. If implemented perfectly, then DRM on things like music would be acceptable to me. A big problem is how "legit" is defined.
      However, just as 100% efficient transformer is impossible, i beleive that a perfect DRM scheme is also impossible, and thus unacceptable.

      Copyright is not bad. Copyright enforcement is not necessarily bad. But DRM is a far cry from being good.

    37. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Chyeld · · Score: 1

      Now, as previously noted, if the contract-portion of that agreement isn't adequately addressed in advance, you may potentially have recourse under contract law, etc., but that's not necessarily carte blanche to break the DRM.

      And I don't believe that anyone actually arguing with you has indicated any sort of carte blanche. What they, as well as I, have indicated is that fair use trumps the arguement.

      Additionally, go ahead and attempt to craft a legal and enforcable contract which says "I'll only sell you X if you use it soley with my other product Y." If you are lucky, the Feds will only smack you around a little bit.

    38. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by multisync · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The point is that while you or I may not necessarily care "how" someone uses it, some people DO care how people use it, and they've got the right to have you agree not to use it in a conflicting way before they give you the content.

      So the manufacturer gets to decide how we use their product after we purchase it? Kellogs can prevent me from using their product to make Rice krispie squares? You don't believe in private property?

      I think you need to think this through a little.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    39. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "The GPL is an additive license. You don't lose the right to do anything under it, you gain the right to do things you weren't otherwise allowed if you follow it."

      There, fixed that for you.

      Why is the lose/loose spelling issue so bad here lately? I understand having 'fumble fingers' here and there, but, this one seems to be epidemic over the past 2-4 years.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    40. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by remmelt · · Score: 1

      Straw man,
      [citation needed],
      and parroting the entertainment industry.

      Nice going!

      (Yeah.)

    41. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by multisync · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, so we should abolish copyrights and watch what happens as TPB gets flooded short term with existing works, and the amount of newly created works that show up on the site trickles to a near standstill. Yeah.

      Yeah, cause no one ever created anything before copyright law came along 300 years ago. Yeah.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    42. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Zerth · · Score: 2, Informative

      The First Sale Doctrine would like to have a word with you.

      You cannot restrict an owners use of a copyrighted work. I can read a book when I want, I can sell it when I want for as little as I want(the original problem involved requiring you to sell books for a minimum price), I can lend it to my friends. I can even put it my wall with a camera and projector if I have poor eyesight(oo, transient copy!).

      The only reason software companies get away with it is the fact that to run their software, a copy needs to be made in memory, and thus they grant you the right to make that copy with restrictions, which is only barely accepted. If you were to run an OS that supported execute in place, then you could give them the finger and wipe them across the court floor.

      Some claim their software is licensed, not sold, but that is also bullshit in every other medium, via the 1976 Act that includes all lawfully possesed works whether sold, given, or traded. Some districts have included anything with the appearance of a sale(ie, I can buy it at a store just like batteries, books, or groceries), some have not.

      If I download software from your website, you gave it to me, too late to add a contract of adhesion after the fact. If you give me a contract beforehand, then me bad for agreeing to it, but after I have it I'm free to ignore any paper/bytes inside the box/installer.

    43. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      copyright gives you the right to control other people's ability to make and distribute further copies of your work, not the right to control how they use the copies tha they have -- or even the right to give the copy that you sold them to someone else (aka 'the right of first purchase').

      DRM is being used to control the end-user far beyond what copyright is supposed to be about.

      The GPL, on the other hand, only kicks in if/when you go beyond what copyright would allow a normal user to do (i.e. when you try to make/distribute further (possibly modified) copies). Until that point, the GPL claims no ability to control what you do.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    44. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Nursie · · Score: 1

      As a rights-holder? Bull. Shit. "You have the right to use content provided you do so in a manner consistent with the license provided with it." That's the same basic principle protected in the GPL, as well as in DRM-licensing terms.

      That's not what the law says. Read up on fair use.

      So, to use your argument, if I wanted to argue that I should have the RIGHT to use the Linux kernel however I see fit (including, potentially, in a closed-source application), you'd be in favor of that. Because that should be my right as a consumer of the code, to determine how I want to use it... right.... right?

      Exactly right. The GPL in fact grants you EXTRA rights in the form of rights to distribute under certain circumstances.

    45. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by s-meister · · Score: 1

      fat thin neck-bearded clean-shaven every morning Cheeto-stained clean-clothed this morning and every morning fat thin basement-dwelling homeowning - above ground gruntwaffle articulate

      I use Linux and buy DVDs. From wikipedia:

      in a historical and legal sense, peon generally only had the meaning of someone working in an unfree labour system (known as peonage). The word often implied debt bondage and/or indentured servitude.

      Well, that's Windows for you.

    46. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      So if the GPL is valid because it controls what you can and can't do with the software after you get it, why is it that the DRM you agreed to when you purchased the content is any different?

      Why are you finding it so difficult to understand this?

      Copyright grants the creator a small set of rights which are enforced, by law, in exchange for the creator agreeing to distribute their work. The only relevant right that copyright grants is the exclusive distribution right (there are a few others, such as the right to be identified with the work, but these vary between legal jurisdictions). Under copyright law, you have no right to make copies of something you receive (except in certain limited cases, which vary depending on your jurisdiction), but you have the right to use it in any other way you choose.

      The copyright owner (typically either the creator, or their publisher) may choose to grant you extra rights, such as the right to distribute copies and derived works. They can not, in a lot of places, legally impose additional restrictions without giving you something in return. One of the principles of contract law in a lot of places is that both parties must gain something for a contract to be valid. If you legally receive a copy of a work, then you have all of the rights that copyright grants you. This includes the right to remove DRM for interoperability in a lot of places (including the USA, under the DMCA).

      I think DRM is complete shit, but treating it differently than GPL just because you like GPL and not DRM is retarded.

      I don't like the GPL. I use BSD and MIT licenses for my own work, and avoid GPL'd code wherever possible. Comparing the GPL to DRM is nonsense, however. The GPL is a license which grants you rights (specifically, a restricted set of distribution rights) that copyright does not permit. DRM is a technical measure which restricts rights that you would otherwise have under the fair use provisions of copyright law, such as the ability to make backup copies, the ability to create (but not distribute) derived works, and the ability to format-shift for private use.

      You don't get to ignore licensing agreements for things you don't like, but require others to respect the ones you do like.

      DRM is not a licensing agreement, it is a technical measure which restricts your rights beyond that allowed under copyright law. You are also confusing the GPL and EULAs. The GPL is a distribution license, EULAs are usage licenses. Distribution licenses, including restrictive ones, are uncontested. EULAs are of varying legality and are often unenforceable.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    47. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if I wanted to argue that I should have the RIGHT to use the Linux kernel however I see fit (including, potentially, in a closed-source application), you'd be in favor of that.

      You do have that right. The GPL is not a use license but a distribution license. Nothing prevents you from using that code in-house as you see fit.

    48. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of works traded on TPB, and enjoyed by users of TPB, are commercial works that would have no commercial value in a world without copyright law. Its that simple.

      Hobby works or works of pleasure would still exist, but the problem is is that hobby works are not the works that are popular.

    49. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by js_sebastian · · Score: 1

      Copyright law allows the rights-holder to determine the conditions upon which they are willing to give you rights to use the content. If the rights-holder says "I'm not going to give you this content unless you give me $20," that's perfectly valid. As is "I'm not going to give you this content unless you give me $20 and agree to the following terms and conditions..." So no, YOU fail, good sir, for not understanding the basic interactions of copyright and contract law here.

      No, you fail again. What you are describing above is some kind of contract between the copyright owner and the user. The GPL is NOT a contract of any kind. It's not a EULA. Did you ever have to click-through a GPL license? Did you ever have to sign the GPL to be able to install linux? Since I did not sign it, the GPL cannot restrict my freedoms in any way. It can only allow me additional freedoms: namely, the right to redistribute the copyrighted work under certain conditions.

    50. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by RobBebop · · Score: 4, Insightful

      At this point this discussion should probably be modded Flaimwar, but from the biased opinion of a self-publisher and a GPL content consumer, I think both arguments are correct. GPL advocates need to differentiate why they should be able to disable the rights claimed by DRM content or else it comes off as "we want freedom to do what we want (in the interests of consumers) AND to prevent you from doing what you want (in the interests of producers).

      Not respecting the rights that DRM imposes isn't too far off from not respecting the right that GPL imposes. Either copyright is valuable, or it isn't. Pick a side.... and know that you can't have your cake and eat it too. There are benevolent and greedy consequences on each side of the copyright argument.

      --
      Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
    51. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 0

      Yes, "COPYRIGHT", and the rights-holder determined - as part of their right to distribute - that before they would distribute the content to you, they were going to have you agree to terms and conditions. As I mentioned elsewhere, it's a combination of copyright and contract law at play. The rights-holder is the only person who can give you the content, and they have you agree to a contact, in the form of Terms and Conditions, or a License Agreement, etc., before they will distribute that content to you. It's not quantum physics.

    52. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, to use your argument, if I wanted to argue that I should have the RIGHT to use the Linux kernel however I see fit (including, potentially, in a closed-source application), you'd be in favor of that. Because that should be my right as a consumer of the code, to determine how I want to use it... right.... right?

      Sad how many people are going to try to attack your argument because you failed to include some disclaimer such as "a closed-source application to be sold commercially" because they can't recognize your obvious intent.

      That's a good bit their fault, but in the future, do remember to not give them the opening. They're like pitbulls. Once they find something to bite on, they won't let go, even if it's a freaking bus.

    53. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Chyeld · · Score: 1

      I don't know. You tell me what's with people who are loose with the defintion of lose.

    54. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

      The manufacturer gets to decide that if you agree to allow them do so (by entering into an agreement that has that stipulation). As a consumer, you have the right to say "No, I won't buy products from Kellogg's because I can't use them how I see fit." But if they had such a clause in an agreement (that you accepted prior to purchase) then yes, you will have already agreed not to do so. They didn't "dictate terms" to you, you accepted them.

    55. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      E.g. I recently encountered a company that sold pdf(?) documents you can only read with an active internet connection. Reading on the train/plane is impossible or very expensive.

      Control C + Control V

    56. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

      If you give me a contract beforehand, then me bad for agreeing to it, but after I have it I'm free to ignore any paper/bytes inside the box/installer.

      I've agreed with you on this point throughout my argument. If the T&C are disclosed up-front, and you agree, then "shame on you, ya fool," you're bound by the DRM restrictions. If the T&C are NOT disclosed up-front, then you get into vagaries of contract law as what the potential recourse is (and in this, there is a matter of great debate, see the whole discussions on shrink-wrap licenses, etc.) Depending on the situation, the "legal recourse" might be to get a refund, or you might even be able to say (depending on your local jurisdiction) that there WAS NO agreement. That half of the argument is best left for your personal attorney. But my argument throughout this discussion has been based on T&C being disclosed prior to the distribution of content to the end-user.

    57. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      To many loosers around here.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    58. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      (mainly responding to GP post)

      "The rights-holder is the sole arbiter of the "conditions of the distribution of their content"."

      That is not true - I can't believe this gets modded "insightful". Copyright law does _not_ grant the authors unrestricted authority over what others do with their works - it only governs copying.

      The immediate parent post explains it pretty well.

      The only thing I would add is the issue of EULAs being binding licenses, which I think is how you would argue that the publisher acquires this extraordinary power to (your example) stop you from using the content in certain months. Doesn't it seem pretty strange to you that this "binding contract" is executed without any signatures, witnesses, notarization, or any of the other measures normally taken to ensure that a contract is enforceable?

      And suppose someone just declines the EULA but figures out a way to use the product anyway? What legal basis does the author have to keep someone from just using the product? As long as you don't re-publish it, you aren't violating copyright law, and there isn't any "contract" the author can claim you have violated. "Because I said so" doesn't cut it as a legal argument, but that's basically what software makers are saying when they demand that their EULA be honored.

      This why software and media publishers seek to use the DMCA - to criminalize activity that would otherwise be perfectly legal so as to enable themselves to dictate arbitrary terms on their customers. Let's ignore for the moment that the DMCA was pushed through as something that applies to *copy protection*, not EULA enforcement.

      So, using the example above, the author might reason:
      1. "OK, you aren't violating traditional copyright law in anything you are doing"
      2. "No, you didn't agree to my EULA, so I can't hold you to that".
      3. "AHA - thanks to the wonderful DMCA, I can sue you because your use of my product without the EULA constitutes illegal 'circumvention'.

      But this only ought to apply if said technological circumvention is done to enable illegal copying. It *shouldn't* apply if you're doing something otherwise perfectly legal, like watching a movie (your own legally purchased copy, that is) in Linux. The DMCA is a bad law because it (arguably) criminalizes the technological circumvention methods themselves, not the actual illegal behavior.

      So, the argument that rights-holders have unlimited authority to dictate terms falls down flat unless you rely on the DMCA, IMHO.

      Stepping back a level, I would ask what you think we as a society should do?

      You said:

      "If they want to distribute content to you which you are forbidden to use in months which end in "Y" that is their right."

      If that is the case, do you think that is a good thing? Do you want to be bound by arbitrary terms like that? Or should we have laws that guarantee that the purchaser can decide what uses are appropriate? If so, then we need to try to get the DMCA and similar laws repealed.

    59. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Zerth · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't have said anything, if you hadn't included this in your post saying the exact opposite:

      If the license wasn't adequately provided to you prior to purchase (e.g., license agreements INSIDE software boxes, etc.) feel free to use the court system to get your money back, or to prove that those particular agreements are invalid.

      .

      If it is inside the box, I shouldn't need to go to court to prove they are invalid, the same as publishers are not allowed to print contracts inside the cover of books and sell them without getting my agreement beforehand.

      And even if you give me a contract prior to selling me a book and I agree to it, you can sue me for breach of contract if I violate that contract. You cannot sue me for breach of copyright for selling a book too cheaply, reading it in the park, or lending it to a friend.

      It should be the same with software as any other copyrighted material.

    60. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Microlith · · Score: 1

      Hey look, it's the perpetual non-sequitor!

      What makes you think people are going to stop creating works of art just because somebody else is going to copy them?

      I never said that, I just said it would slow to a trickle. The same trickle we had not 200 years before. Personally, I like the fact that tons of works can come out without the creators having to kowtow to someone else's wishes or risk getting stuck holding the bag for production costs while Wal-Mart cranks out millions of copies for slightly more than the cost of manufacturing.

      Without copyright, people might not make money out of it.

      Well, no one will make money out of it. Which will drive a lot of people out (both good and bad.)

      But nobody says people are supposed to make money for everything they do.

      Yay, another non-sequitor. Without copyright they are virtually guaranteed to get screwed over. That slight bit of protection (even if it doesn't negate p2p) encourages massive amounts of production that weren't viable before.

    61. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note that the copyright law as such does not grant you the right to distribute the linux kernel as such.

      So you need the rights granted on top of the rights you get de jure to be able to distribute the kernel. Ah, and one of the conditions for this is that you are forbidden to go closed source.

    62. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

      I understand what you're saying about the "inside the box" agreements. I don't mean that you should have to "proactively" use the court system, I mean that -- if you're sued for violating the inside-the-box agreement, feel free to prove that you're not guilty or that the contract there isn't enforceable (and I'd be with you on that one). As to "copyright" vs "contact" law as the binding force, in the end, I think it becomes a hybrid of the two. Contract law is involved because, well, there's a contract involved, by way of a license agreement. Copyright law gets involved because that contract dealt with the terms under which some content would be distributed to you. Any lawsuit dealing with such a situation is very naturally going to be a mix of both.

    63. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by multisync · · Score: 1

      So when all manufacturers start attaching unreasonable terms to the use of their product, you will simply not eat. Is this the way you want the world to work? If not, why the staunch defense of DRM?

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    64. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by ericrost · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Where did I agree to those terms and conditions when purchasing a DVD or CD @ Best Buy?

    65. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      WTF is a "gruntwaffle?"

      It's an Eggo that goes "Uuuugh" when the toaster pops up. Reading comprehension, people!!!111

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    66. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by guruevi · · Score: 1

      As mentioned here before, it doesn't deter artist nor programmers to do what they like.

      Does the vast amounts of open source and freeware software (no strings attached software code) available make it that the market gets flooded with cheap knock-offs of said software or sold for vast amount of profits by some heartless corporation? Not as far as I can see (there are always examples but they are more the exception than the rule).

      Before copyrights there were great artist (Da Vinci, Michelangelo) and people that copied them (some have brought out that Shakespeare might have been one of those leeching off others and many stories were told and retold and eventually somebody copied the best parts of those stories like the works of the brothers Grimm). Actually, usually art or the services of an artist were negotiated for a price and then the entity that bought it or bought the services of the artist could do whatever it wanted with it (eg. Michelangelo being hired by the Church, they could have decided just to make him paint some murals instead of the ceiling of the Sixtine Chapel).

      These days it seems that what needs to be made and what the customers need to buy is decided by the artist and their management companies (as in the music industry but it's also like that for other forms of art).

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    67. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Nursie · · Score: 1

      Yes exactly, you have no right to distribute without the GPL. It grants you extra rights on top of your fair/personal use rights, to distribute with restrictions.

      Odd how many folks don't see the difference between something that gives you extra rights (GPL) and something that attempts to take legal rights away (DRM).

    68. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Fair use rights are actually rather well defined. DRM often seeks to restrict user rights further than copyright.

      In some cases, the DRM manages to restrict end user rights far more than even the crazy EULA allows for including effectively reneging on the license entirely (with no refund), for example if the server the DRM phones home to is down or gone.

      Meanwhile, a lot of DRM is a bit of a fraud since the 'licensing' is made to look exactly like a simple first sale under copyright law and only after the fact the buyer discovers that they've bought substantially less than they thought. For example, the Sony CDs with the built-in rootkit.

      On the other hand, GPL offers far broader rights than fair use already and has no DRM to malfunction. In fact, for an end user equivilent to someone who merely listens to music (as opposed to sampling and remixing it), GPL rights are pretty much indistinguishable from public domain. You can make multiple copies, give copies to your friends, sell copies, use it on any machine that can run it, put it on a p2p network, etc. etc.

      BTW, as long as you don't try to make the kernel itself proprietary, you are free to use it to run proprietary software in a proprietary system. Many embedded products do exactly that and most fulfill their few obligations under GPL just fine.

    69. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

      I will still eat. I can hunt, or fish, or raise crops.

    70. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Sometimes they're in very small print on the outside of the package. Often they're not. As I mentioned in other portions of this thread... for licenses not agreed to or disclosed/visible "in advance of the transaction", it's a whole different ball of wax where it becomes harder for the rightsholder to hold you to the agreement (but not necessarily impossible... the courts could theoretically claim that the agreement is still binding but that you have a right to a refund, for example). That area is much "murkier" than what I've been talking about predominantly, which is "pre-disclosed" terms.

    71. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by mirkob · · Score: 1

      And I'm shocked that there are so many people here who believe "copyright" is anything but a land grab for those who cannot create.

      that's because few know that copyright was born when the old corporation of the copyst found himself surrounded by more capable, independent printers, and so petitioned the king (of england) for a "copy right" for themselves only.

      all things that follow are nothing more than a composition of this monopolistic vision.

    72. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Nursie · · Score: 1

      "Not respecting the rights that DRM imposes isn't too far off from not respecting the right that GPL imposes."

      Yes, yes it is.

      DRM does not impose "rights", it tries to restrict legal, protected uses of media. It tries to stop people ripping a CD to listen to on their iPod, or DRM'd downloads from working on your other music player, or in the car. It tries to stop you ripping your DVDs to a media server and watching them later. It restricts how you can use media.

      The GPL not only doesn't interfere with your right to do what the hell you want with the software, it also explicitly grants you extra rights to distribute under certain circumstances.

      These are totally different situations.

    73. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      They didn't "dictate terms" to you, you accepted them.

      No...I'm pretty sure they're dictated. Unless I have the opportunity to negotiate terms before purchase, then they're dictated.
      If I go to the store, buy the product, get home, have dinner, then go to use the product, and the manufacturer pops up and says "Oh, by the way....we didn't tell you this before you gave us your money, but you're not allowed to do X with the product you just bought," then they're dictated terms, that I didn't even have the opportunity to refuse.

      Imagine buying a car like that:

      You go to the dealership, test drive the car, ask about the warranty, sort out your financing, then drive your shiny new car home and put it in your garage.
      Next morning, you go out to get in it, and find a 14 page legalese document sitting on the drivers seat from the manufacturer, stating that if you use the car, the warranty is void, and you can't use it to transport your neighbour's kids to school, as your neighbour needs to buy their own car. It also says that repainting your car a different colour is cause for legal action against you, and if you get a flat tire, the roadside assistance package you bought doesn't cover it, because the nail in the tire is a modification that you made yourself.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    74. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Nursie · · Score: 1

      This is just not true. There are limits to contract law and to copyright law for precisely these reasons.

    75. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      Not respecting the rights that DRM imposes isn't too far off from not respecting the right that GPL imposes. Either copyright is valuable, or it isn't. Pick a side.... and know that you can't have your cake and eat it too. There are benevolent and greedy consequences on each side of the copyright argument.

      The problem here is that you're confusing licenses with copyright. They're different animals. Some folks have a really hard time getting their heads wrapped around that.

      What we're talking about is what one does after the establishment of the copyright. In short, we're talking licensing. What the GPL does is very different than any license using DRM to enforce it. That alone can bring valid disagreement - you can support the GPL and still be critical of other licensing.

      Of course, it really goes a step beyond that. Licensing isn't what people think it is sometimes. DRM tends to enforce a draconian reading of a given license, ignoring inconvenient aspects such as fair use. It is possible to support copyright and licensing while being critical of DRM.

      This is not the all-or-nothing situation you would claim it to be.

      Let's take this from a different angle. Once in awhile, someone publishing code under the GPL comes up with a moral objection and seeks a way of not supporting some aspect of society that clashes with that objection. Common examples are non-military use restrictions. Trouble is - the license stops being the GPL.

    76. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by multisync · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, the final solution. I will be a survivalist. I will grow my own wheat, mill it and make it in to bread. I will grow cotton, and spend the hours in the fields picking it, then produce cloth material from which I will sew my own garments. I will harvest the timber needed to build my house, first milling it in to lumber. I will also need to forge the steel necessary to produce nails, screws and other fasteners needed for my abode.

      I will entertain myself with music of my own composition, played on instruments of my own making. I will study medicine to treat my own illnesses, but not from any copyrighted medical book. I will develop my own discipline through trial-and-error.

      Or I could simply say, I purchased this DVD and will use it in any manner I see fit provided I do not violate copyright law by doing so. Any other restrictions placed on the DVD's use by the manufacturer are wishful thinking on his part, and will be defeated when they conflict with my enjoyment of the product I purchased.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    77. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by digitalunity · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're looking at this entirely wrong. Rejection of the GPL and rejection of DRM are two entirely separate things.

      DRM isn't a license, it's a mechanism to restrict the use of the copyrighted work. From a moral perspective, it's improper for consumers to be forced to purchase the same work for their Zune, iPod, generic MP3 player, car, computer and CD player. If, through DRM, music publishers thought they could get away with that they would. DRM is their weak attempt at this, with the false presumption that consumers won't fight back.

      Again, from a moral perspective, bypassing DRM to use a legally purchased copyrighted work such as an audio recording or a movie on the device of your choice is not wrong - it is a prerogative. From a legal perspective, well obviously the current state of laws are out of touch with reality, as is the mindset of content producers(see Authors Guild recent statements regarding Kindle). In fact, on that note, I would love to see the Authors Guild representative tell a blind man face to face that he has to pay extra because of text to speech capability. Good fucking luck.

      GPL is a license. The license doesn't restrict your use of the software and thus does not impose morally unfair conditions upon users of GPL software. If you downloaded the next Linux kernel and it had an addendum on the license that said "This software can only be used while wearing pink fuzzy slippers", I would wholeheartedly agree that users should ignore that portion of the license.

      In many ways, the laws on the books are out of touch with common morality and consumer expectations of fairness. They will catch up eventually, I hope.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
    78. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 1

      It's not as simple as "not violate copyright law", you can't violate ANY law, including contract law which covers the license agreement you agreed to in order to purchase the item. If the rightsholder has told you in advance (as a condition of sale) you may not do XXX, and you go ahead and do XXX, then you are breaking your contract with the rightsholder, and I would support their putting the smackdown on you wholeheartedly.

    79. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Kjella · · Score: 1

      The GPL only puts restrictions on how the software is distributed. The only person being restricted by the GPL is the copyright holder.

      When you say it like that, it's nonsense since the copyright holder can do what he wants under as many licenses as he wants. It puts restrictions on how the software is redistributed, if you want to build on GPL software and distribute it you can't just slap a layer of paint on it and treat it like you built the whole thing. There are conditions to follow in exchange for granting you a distribution license..

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    80. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Tuoqui · · Score: 2

      Even if you go to a library or book store and DON'T buy the book, the thing is still copyrighted and you can't make copies of it nor can you make a similar book with the same or a similar story.

      Technically you're allowed to photocopy portions of a book say if you're using them for research purposes. This is called 'Fair Use' which is something that copyright holders have been desperately trying to wrest from the hands of the public. Also just because someone made a James Bond book doesnt mean you arent allowed to make a different Spy character that does similar things. Part of the creative process is touching on people's expectations...

      --
      09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
      +2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
    81. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I won't allow my content to be distributed to you"

      A copyright holder does not need copyright law to do that.

      Copyright prevents you from distributing the content further.

      If I buy software from a store, then the CD in the box is already a copy that has been made with the permission of the copyright holder. If I buy the software, then copyright law does not apply; only a contract of sale does. This is the doctrine of first sale: unless the store has made other contracts, the store can do whatever it wants with the copy it already has except to make further copies.

      After buying the copy, I then would not be allowed to make any further copies without the permission of the copyright holder, except copies needed to use the software as these rights are implied by the copyright holder in selling the software in the first place. The copyright holder can put terms on these conditions (known as a license) but not any terms of the original sale.

      If the copyright holder wants me to agree to any further terms, then he needs to arrange with the store to give me a piece of paper to sign (or some other indication that I agree to a further legally binding agreement; a notice on the box is not enough as the store isn't a party to that contract) to agree to further terms before selling me the software.

      Software companies pretend that EULAs are legally enforceable, but they are only so in a small handful of US states.

    82. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by samjam · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nonsense.

      Sometimes I buy a DVD and it says "This DVD was sold subject to the condition that...." (usually something about playing in schools and prisons) and I think: "No it wasn't" - and it wasn't.

      Just because it is written down doesn't mean it is true.

      Sam

    83. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by YouWantFriesWithThat · · Score: 1

      I can hunt, or fish, or raise crops.

      i'm sorry, no you can't.

      the consumer license on your bullets specifically forbids hunting for any reason. these bullets are licensed for target practice only. your fishing gear is only licensed for catch and release. you have to throw that nice salmon back. and as far as your crops, they really aren't yours either. your agreed to a license when purchasing the seeds that stated they could only be used for hobby purposes. the terms of the license state that sustenance farming is considered commercial use and these seeds are not approved for that.

      if these terms are not to your liking you are free to not purchase these products. see how that works?

    84. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Intron · · Score: 1

      So, to use your argument, if I wanted to argue that I should have the RIGHT to use the Linux kernel however I see fit (including, potentially, in a closed-source application), you'd be in favor of that. Because that should be my right as a consumer of the code, to determine how I want to use it... right.... right? Sorry, but that's not how it works. If the GPL rights-holder gets to use copyright law to dictates "terms of use" for GPL'ed content, then the DRM'ed rights-holder gets to use copyright law to dictate THEIR terms of use as well. If you don't like those terms, feel free to use something else, just as lots of people who don't like GPL license terms use BSD or even (gasp!) closed-source code.

      Too bad for your argument that you have exactly the rights you describe for the Linux kernel, including modifying it and using it in your own closed source application. What you do not have is exactly the same as what the music customer does not have -- the right to distribute copies. That would be breaking exactly the same law - copyright.

      DMCA criminalizes modifications of your own copy of bits which you have purchased, regardless of whether you plan to distribute. Can't you see how wrong that is?

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    85. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 0
      /sigh

      Again, this comes down to whether it's on the outside of the package or otherwise "pre-visible" (which is clearly enforceable) or whether it's something you can't know about until after you've purchased it (which becomes a might-bit murkier).

    86. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by samjam · · Score: 1

      heh in fact I would hope for a refund - then it would count as a "free hire" - how many times will I watch the same DVD?

      Sam

    87. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 1
      If we're going to go "ad absurdium":

      the consumer license on your bullets specifically forbids hunting for any reason. these bullets are licensed for target practice only.

      Black-powder and hand crafted bullets/shot are an option.

      your fishing gear is only licensed for catch and release

      The tree didn't include a license when I broke the branch off, and the hand-crafted hook works pretty well (I actually did this as a child and I caught a couple fish, so - please - no bullshit argument about how this can't be done).

      if these terms are not to your liking you are free to not purchase these products. see how that works?

      Yep, and at the end of the day, maybe the world would be a bit better off if we weren't so dependent on others for our own ability to survive. I'm ready for Z-day, are you? :-)

    88. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by samjam · · Score: 1

      yeah, sorry, I misunderstood your point.

      However I still think it doesn't come down to that.

      If the seller and the purchaser aren't aware of it despite it being on the outside of the box, then in this specific case it can't be enforceable because it can't be sold subject to a condition that the parties to the sale aren't aware of...

    89. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Dredd13 · · Score: 0

      I think the seller/rights-holder can make a good case in court that "it was on the outside of the box, you should have known, and had every opportunity to not buy it based on that." The same argument they might make if you bought a copy of "FooGame" for xBox360 when you have a Wii. At the end of the day, that's "your own damned fault for not reading the box", and while a lot of places will accept a return/exchange, there's certainly no obligation to do so.

    90. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by tjstork · · Score: 0, Troll

      Making money is not a right.

      Well then, can we kick all the people off of welfare and knock off all this national health care crap.

      --
      This is my sig.
    91. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by sco08y · · Score: 1

      The GPL does not, in any way, restrict your use of the licensed code. It only restricts the way you redistribute that code (if you should choose to do so).

      And redistribution is a kind of use which is precisely why there are so many issues with GPL'd libraries.

      Look, the GPL is dealing with the same fundamental issue that DRM is dealing with, which is that producers need an incentive to continue producing. Mind you, the GPL's model is realistic enough to acknowledge that not every product can be immediately traded for cash.

    92. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by sco08y · · Score: 0, Troll

      Wow, all the trolls have come out of the woodwork.

      Just because someone disagrees with /. orthodoxy, even on the odd occasions when that orthodoxy is right, doesn't make them a troll. I've only read a few responses on this thread, but it hardly seems to have more troll content than usual.

      The best trolls left a long time ago.

    93. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by RobBebop · · Score: 1

      The [GPL] license doesn't restrict your use of the software and thus does not impose morally unfair conditions upon users of GPL software.

      The GPL imposes the restriction that I cannot modify software that's distributed under the GPL and then distribute that however I want. I am forced to choose between (a) not distributing it, and (b) distributing it according to the GPL. I am free to sell it however I'd like, but I cannot tell somebody that I sell it to that they can't distribute it however they'd want. Ergo, if the entity who buys my software feels empowered they're free to publish my modifications on the open internet, destroying the perceived value of the modification that I made to the original GPL software that I had gotten. Therefore, the conclusion to reach is that GPL (while being user-friendly) is less business friendly because it drives businesses to a "GPL application and infrastructure support" revenue stream and away from an "Application Innovation" revenue stream. Those who have taken economics 101 might realize that applications and infrastructure that are innovative, intuitive, and don't need 3rd party support are preferable.

      Now... I agree with you. "Digital bits" (be they licensed, copyrighted, or patented) shouldn't be artificially restricted from being moved around all over the place (and to that extent, I disagree with selling digital information as well). However, by saying the consumers should be able to unlock the bits preventing them from accessing their "moral" rights is on par with saying big software companies should be able to "unlock" the wording in the GPL that prevents them from subverting it.

      I would say... if it has artificial "locks"... DON'T BUY IT in the first place. This will effectively destroy DRM faster than any flamewar argument, so that the only people buying will be the people who don't know any better... and eventually they'll get pissed off enough to start looking elsewhere. No?

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    94. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by dna_(c)(tm)(r) · · Score: 1

      Control C + Control V

      So, you're an evil hacker, circumventing DRM systems like that.

    95. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hah. Clever way to justify stealing. There is no concept of "fairness" in free markets. You simply aren't entitled to choice over how content can be used. Jesus, this is capitalism+free markets 101. A basic fact like this ignored by the ignorants. Don't like it? Don't buy it.

      DRM is just a smokescreen for thieves to steal what they don't want to pay for...

    96. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Making money for your works of art is not a right? That's about the most anti-capitalist thing I've ever seen on slashdot. I suppose you need to reword it to say you have a right to charge for your works of art, but not a right to profit from them (if it sucks, or not enough people buy it, or whatever). But still, denying an artist the opportunity to even TRY to make money because it isn't their right to do so?

    97. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Harik · · Score: 1

      actually you're right, but legally you're wrong. The entire "licensing" house of cards rests on a ridiculous decision that usage of digital media requires "copying" it to temporary RAM. So, in the legal world, usage IS covered by copyright, and that really REALLY needs to change.

    98. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Yeah! That Picasso guy totally stopped painting since other people could copy his paintings since he lived before copyright.

      Your argument has no basis in fact. There are plenty of people who would still create art for the sake of it, and still many who would profit from it in spite of not having copyright. There's a significant value to having the "original". I'm not going to go see some knock-off band play all of Carlos Santana's music if I can go see him do it. And going to a show is something people will gladly pay money for. They don't see the value in the artificial scarcity that are CD's and DRM'd audio files.

    99. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Judging by your username, you are a gruntwaffle.

    100. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by multisync · · Score: 1

      A couple of things. First, you've kind of slid from DRM in to EULAs, which is a whole other kettle of fish.

      Regardless, I didn't agree to anything which I purchased the DVD. I handed a retailer some cash and left with my purchase. At that stage, the sale is over. Attempting to attach further conditions to the sale after the fact - whether it be by forcing me to click "I Agree" to some EULA or simply putting technological obstacles in place in an attempt to control how I use the product - does not make it a "contract," and does not bind me to those conditions.

      If I choose to use my new laptop as a hammer while building my sundeck, I am free to do so regardless of what Dell thinks of that. I may void my warranty; certainly they can not be held responsible for anything that happens as a result of me using the product in a manner not intended by the manufacturer. But I am free to do as I please with my property.

      The same goes for the DVDs. I did not sign a contract agreeing that I would not rip the contents of the DVD to my file server for convenience and to protect my investment, and I doubt a contract which attempted to prevent me from making use of my property in any way I see fit would stand up in court. It is simply not a reasonable thing for the manufacturer to ask.

      As a society, we have agreed to protect copyright holders from competition for a limited period of time by outlawing the distribution of their work by anyone but themselves. In exchange for this protection, we are guaranteed certain exemptions from the limits on distribution by the same law. This is were DRM runs afoul of copyright law, by attempting to restrict uses of which I am guaranteed by copyright law.

      Any attempt by the copyright holder to extend their control beyond what is allowed for under copyright law is a matter of contract law, and would need to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. You can't just put whatever you like in a contract and expect a court to enforce it, especially if you have been granted a monopoly by the very same party you are attempting to hold to those conditions.

      You started off comparing the GPL to DRM, which is like comparing just plain wrong. The GPL governs the distribution of a copyrighted work, not its use. You must agree to and abide by the terms of the GPL in order to distribute the work.

      You don't have to agree to anything to use a piece of software licensed under the GPL. Freedom 0 guarantees that.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    101. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by init100 · · Score: 1

      The rights-holder is the only person who can give you the content, and they have you agree to a contact, in the form of Terms and Conditions, or a License Agreement, etc., before they will distribute that content to you.

      Except that a lot of media, such as DVDs, contain no ToS or EULA. Thus, plain copyright law applies. In the US, that means that you are prohibited from breaking the DRM to view it in Linux, but where I live (Sweden), that is not true. You are not allowed to break copy protection, but you are allowed to break access protection or combined access/copy protection systems to enable your legal use of the content, which includes playing it on your platform of choice.

      IANAL though.

    102. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Nursie · · Score: 1

      Hah. Clever way to justify stealing. There is no concept of "fairness" in free markets.

      Good job we don't operate in that particular sort of libertarian paradise then, eh?

      Thankfully, in western countries, we do have those concepts that present themselves as fair use rights and limits on contract laws.

      You simply aren't entitled to choice over how content can be used.

      FAIL.

    103. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by spitzak · · Score: 1

      You are still not getting it. The GPL does not "restrict" you in any way, copyright law restricts you. The GPL says "you can violate copyright law if you do this special step". You are free to take advantage of that, but it the special step is too painful for you, then just ignore it, and the GPL is doing nothing, and certainly not restricting you at all. And you get the source code to look at and/or modify for your own use, if you care.

    104. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have written a chapter to a technical book mainly for the "publication" value. Quite a expensive one too. I didn't get paid and neither did any of the editors or other authors. This is not uncommon for this type of book. We even have to do the proofs and everything.

      Publishes once added value. They really don't anymore.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    105. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by init100 · · Score: 1

      By entering into the contract (which permitted the content to be distributed to you in the first place) you have willingly given up some rights, such as the right to crack open the file and do whatever you want with it.

      Except that some rights can't be signed away. Some clauses in a contract may be unenforceable, regardless of the wishes of the content provider. The content providers often include terms which are not enforceable just to scare the users into believing that they have less rights than they actually have.

    106. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by multisync · · Score: 1

      Not respecting the rights that DRM imposes isn't too far off from not respecting the right that GPL imposes

      DRM is a technological measure designed to govern how someone uses a copyrighted work; the GPL is a license that governs how a copyrighted work may be distributied. Other than both being related to copyrighted works, they really couldn't be more different. If the GPL attempted to put restrictions on how people use works licensed under it, you would have a point.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    107. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not all contracts are legal and enforceable. If you enter into a contract that says "You cannot do X with Y product." when actual law states that the party you entered into the contract with cannot prevent you from doing X with Y, why should you not be able to do it? DRM is essentially companies telling us, "You cannot use this material however you choose, including within your legal rights." So, your argument doesn't stand up. Yeah, the rights holder has told me, "you can't make a backup". But they have no legal rights to say I am not allowed to make a back up.

      If you sign into a contract that says "If you (the consumer) does X we get to shoot you in the back of the head" does that make it enforceable? Would you support that as well?

    108. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      > Just because it is written down doesn't mean it is true.

      True enough. But the example you used is a poor one. That wording is just reminding you of something that is already the case. Playing a DVD in a school or prision would be a 'public exhibition' of the work and prohibited by copyright law. Unless you purchase a special license you can't do that, they were just reminding you of that. Yes they word it like all use of their 'precious IP' is theirs to control but public exhibition and reproduction are the only acts controlled by copyright.

      I work in a public library. We have a lot of DVDs in our collection that we can circulate to our patrons without any additional permissions other than owning a copy of the work. But we couldn't play one as part of a children's program without a special license from the rights owner. We do have such a license that covers a fair range of material (pretty much anything that doesn't come from the House of Mouse) but we paid dearly for it.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    109. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by spitzak · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are confusing "distribution" with redistribution

      I can say "I will give you some code I wrote with a GPL license in exchange for $20". If you don't give me the $20, you don't get the code, and the fact that it is GPL licensed does NOTHING. In fact I could even say "I'll give you this code and put it in the public domain for $20". But unless I get the $20 you will not see the code, it is totally irrelevant what license I plan to put it under!

      However once you have it, if I really have granted you the GPL license to violate the copyright, you can go ahead and do so. And this means you can give it to other people and they won't have to pay me $20. That is redistribution.

      The record companies, with no changes to copyright or any license or EULA at all, can say "you can't give this music to somebody else because you are violating copyright law", ie it is just like the GPL except there are no exceptions that let you violate copyright law.

    110. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by RobBebop · · Score: 1

      Self-Godwin... FTW

      My right run a business that *distributes* software according to the GPL license is as restricted as Hitler's ability to fight a land war during the winter in Russia.

      ???

      Profit!

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      Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
    111. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by init100 · · Score: 1

      The only person being restricted by the GPL is the copyright holder.

      Wrong. The copyright holder can do whatever he wants with his copyrighted works, regardless of whether they are licensed to others under the GPL or not. That's e.g. how dual-licensing works.

      The reason some projects cannot do this is because the projects accepted contributions from other people without requiring copyright transfers, causing the projects to contain copyrighted code with a plethora of copyright holders. This is also why projects that intend to dual-license the project code require copyright transfers or equivalent in order to accept contributions.

    112. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by init100 · · Score: 1

      If I want to play an mp3 that I purchased on my brand new mp3 player that doesn't handle the itunes DRM, shouldn't I be permitted to alter the format of that content so that I can still use it?

      Of course not, since that precludes him selling you another copy of the same content in a different format. /sarcasm

      One reason for DRM to exist is to prevent format-shifting content, so that the content providers can sell the same content multiple times. But since this goal would appear excessively greedy, it is never mentioned by the proponents of DRM, who instead try to claim that it is required to prevent piracy.

    113. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by multisync · · Score: 1

      Did you ever have to click-through a GPL license?

      Sadly, yes. See here. (You will need to click "Proceed to download" and select a mirror).

      Not only will the download not begin until you check the box stating "I accept these terms and conditions," but you must "accept" the terms of the GPL a second time during the installation process, or the program will not install (and therefore not run). This is clearly in violation of freedom 0, which guarantees "the freedom to run the program, for any purpose."

      This isn't the only example I have seen of misguided software vendors creating confusion over what the GPL is and who is bound by it, but it's the only one I can cite an example of at this point.

      You are, of course, correct. The user is not bound by the terms of the GPL unless (s)he intends to re-distribute the software licensed under it. I just wish more software distributors understood this.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    114. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by multisync · · Score: 1

      Wrong. The copyright holder can do whatever he wants with his copyrighted works, regardless of whether they are licensed to others under the GPL or not.

      I've already replied elsewhere that I should have said "the only person being restricted by the GPL is the person distributing the software," but if that person happens to be the copyright holder, (s)he is certainly bound by the terms of the GPL. You may license your code under as many licenses as you wish, but once you license it to me under the GPL, you are bound by its terms.

      So yes, the copyright holder can do whatever he wants with his copyrighted works, provided he does not violate the terms of any licensing agreements he has already made with those copyrighted works.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    115. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Harik · · Score: 1

      Not true, they have no right to dictate that at all. At least, for anything except digital. You can't say "If I sell you this book you can never resell it.". First Sale doctrine lays the smack down on that attempt. It's not legally enforcable to put a notice on the cover of the book saying "You must destroy this as soon as you finish reading it.". You can put it on the cover all day long, but if I bought it and didn't destroy it, there's not a damned thing you could do.

      _ALL_ digital usage licenses are based on the ridiculous claim that using digital media is creating a copy, thus their license falls under copyright law. There is no such thing as a useright, as much as the big media companies wish there were.

    116. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Kindaian · · Score: 1

      Contracts in most countries have to revert to writen form, signed by both parts.

      Otherwise they aren't valid.

    117. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by scientus · · Score: 1

      The supreme court says otherwise.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobbs-Merrill_Co._v._Straus

      Copyright, as the name suggests, is the right to copy a work of some form. If one resells or gives as a gift a book (or CD or DVD) that one has bought, a new copy has not been made, therefore it is legal under US copyright law.

      The owner can choose when and where to distribute their copyrighted works, but do not have any control, under law, over what the user does, or who they sell or give that copy too. Microsoft lawyers and FUDdites would like you to think otherwise, but you can sell your CDs/Software/etc to anyone for any price.

      http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/05/court-smacks-autodesk-affirms-right-to-sell-used-software.ars -- Timothy S. Vernor v. Autodesk

    118. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      If they want to distribute content to you which you are forbidden to use in months which end in "Y" that is their right.

      Your premise is flawed, at least in the realm of copyright. This doesn't not necessarily apply to software, although whether it should is a different issue. There are some things the content creator/distributor can't require without violating the law. One of those is, for instance, forbidding you from reselling your music media. If I buy a CD, I can sell it to you. They can whine, and they can complain, but they can't stop me. This is the First Sale doctrine, and all those used-CD stores that aren't getting raided imply the content creators are aware of this. Note that reselling the CD is not copying it! If I copy it first, I may be violating the law, depending on where I live.
      Believe it or not, but there are laws that apply to this, and they aren't entirely in the content creators' favor. The more cynical of us might say this is why they hire lobbyists.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    119. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by WiseWeasel · · Score: 1

      Click-through license clauses governing the usage of items purchased at a store are unenforceable in California, a few other states, due to a conflict with the First Sale Doctrine, as well as in Europe, and most of the rest of the developed world that protects consumer property rights. This is true for any items purchased in an informal setting such as a brick-and-mortar store where the contractual limitations of the license are not presented to the purchaser, including DVDs and CDs. For items purchased through a service like iTunes, the click-through license is probably enforceable, and breaking the license is illegal FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE AGREED TO IT AND ARE BOUND BY IT. Anyone else can take a crack at breaking the DRM on iTunes files, and they're not breaking any contract, although the person(s) who supplied them with their copies of copy-protected content to use to generate the crack is in violation of their contract with Apple.

      So it's a murky legal situation. On the one hand, we have DVDs, which are DRM'd, but they're available for purchase in regular retail settings and the user is never presented a contractual agreement during usage, and so any usage-restricting license that may be included with them are unenforceable. For services which do present a license before use, such as iTunes, those that make use of the service are bound by any arbitrary usage limitations the distributor cares to put in their license.

      --
      "I like systems, their application excepted", George Sand (French)
    120. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is literally the right to copy.

      Technically, copyright is the right to prevent other people from making copies. It's not the right to copy it yourself.

    121. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by zuperduperman · · Score: 1

      > Copyright only deals with redistribution, whether in original or modified form.

      I used to think that too. However it turns out there are whole branches of copyright law that deal with other aspects than "copying" or "distribution". For example, the right to perform a work (song, play, etc etc), which is in no sense copying, is restricted by copyright law.

    122. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by mysidia · · Score: 1

      As a rights-holder? Bull. Shit. "You have the right to use content provided you do so in a manner consistent with the license provided with it." That's the same basic principle protected in the GPL, as well as in DRM-licensing terms.

      No. You have an absolute right to use content provided to you in any way you so desire, so long as your use of the content is not in violation of any laws. You have certain rights that no copyright license can take away from you -- although you may sign an agreement or accept a EULA conceding not to exercise certain rights, violations of a EULA are not copyright infringement or piracy, they're violations of a EULA, and there's a huge difference.

      The only law that gives an author exclusive rights to copyright content is copyright law, and only certain exclusive rights are granted by copyright law.

      They are: the right to copy and distribute, the right to make performance of the copyright work (i.e. to perform a play in public, or to play a DVD for an audience including people other than yourself), and the right to distribute derivative works.

      No other rights are granted exclusively to the author, and it's not piracy or "copyright infringement" if you aren't doing something on that list, no matter what a software license says.

      For example, if you're making a copy for your personal use only, or for your personal backup purposes, then you aren't distributing it, so you aren't infringing on copyright.

      If you're watching a DVD (or a copy of a DVD) in your living room that you purchased, it's not copyright infringement, no matter what the license might say. You legally own a copy of the work, so you have a right to use it -- you are in private, so you aren't "performing" the work.

      You can even modify the work however you like, without need for a license. But you _do_ need a license if you wish to make a derivative work (i.e. a work you distribute to someone else, or that you perform, etc).

      Even in that case, though, there are fair use exceptions by law, which cannot be overriden by a "license agreement", as far as copyright is concerned.

    123. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by fl1ckmasterflex · · Score: 1

      There was a certain pride associated with being an intellectual/creative/professorial person 300 years ago. Now, people are just out to screw each other. Blame overpopulation, blame materialism. Whatever.

      Those that are not interested in money are ALREADY creating stuff and giving it away for free. A lot of times, this is like a hobby or something they do in their spare time. The number of people who are in it for the money hugely outweigh the others. Its just a fact of life.

    124. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by immcintosh · · Score: 1

      You seem to be confusing the word "use" with the word "distribute." These are different things. Or are you now going to try to argue that you're as criminally liable for using drugs as you are for selling them? Different activities, different laws apply. Sorry.

      (For the criminally dense, GPL GRANTS the right under certain conditions to DISTRIBUTE goods. DRM RESTRICTS the right under certain conditions to USE goods. Notice the difference. Also, GPL is based on traditional copyright law, while DRM relies on the DMCA to grant it legal backing.)

    125. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by multisync · · Score: 1

      That's the shining light in all of this. Flickr is a great outlet for people to get their photography out, for example. Podcast-type audio programs, blogs and sites like Youtube provide an outlet for amateurs as well as an alternative to the mainstream. You just need to stand out from the crowd.

      Anyone who has ever wanted to create music or films has it within their grasp now to do so. You will still need an instrument or camera. And you'll still need to actually have something you're dying to get out of you. But that technological/cost barrier that has necessitated turning a lot of forms of expression into business enterprises is steadily eroding.

      At the same time as the tools are becoming available, so are the forums. If you can get your film in the can, so to speak, you will have opportunities to show it to people.

      That's what those idiots at the RIAA/MPAA need to worry about.

      So go ahead, Mickey Valenti. Put DRM on your crappy CDs and movies (and your good ones, for that matter). Give people another reason to look elsewhere for entertainment and enlightenment.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    126. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by js_sebastian · · Score: 1

      At this point this discussion should probably be modded Flaimwar, but from the biased opinion of a self-publisher and a GPL content consumer, I think both arguments are correct. GPL advocates need to differentiate why they should be able to disable the rights claimed by DRM content or else it comes off as "we want freedom to do what we want (in the interests of consumers) AND to prevent you from doing what you want (in the interests of producers).

      Not respecting the rights that DRM imposes isn't too far off from not respecting the right that GPL imposes. Either copyright is valuable, or it isn't. Pick a side.... and know that you can't have your cake and eat it too. There are benevolent and greedy consequences on each side of the copyright argument.

      No. You totally fail to understand the issue, it is appalling that you are being modded insightful. Being against DRM is not the same as being against copyright, although many people who are against DRM are also critic of the current state of copyright law.

      Compared to copyright law, DRM imposes, by technical means, additional restrictions to my use of a copyrighted work. On the other hand, the GPL allows me additional freedoms over a copyrighted work (namely, the right to redistribute it under certain conditions). How is this the same thing?

    127. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Karljohan · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's also fully legal to reject GPL. When you do that, copyright laws apply. GPL simply says that if you agree to some terms you're allowed to do more stuff than is permitted by copyright laws.

    128. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by init100 · · Score: 1

      You may license your code under as many licenses as you wish, but once you license it to me under the GPL, you are bound by its terms.

      Only with respect to yourself, i.e. he can't change the terms or attempt to revoke the license at will. But he may choose another license when he distributes to the next guy, or even when he distributes a new version of the same software to you.

    129. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by steelfood · · Score: 1

      DRM has nothing to do with copyright. Rejection of the GPL is a copyright matter. Rejection of DRM is not.

      DRM's advertised purpose may be to prevent unlicensed distribution and unlicensed derived works. But call it collateral damage, or call it DRM's real, more sinister purpose, it prevents people from using the product they purchased as they see fit.

      It's very common for people to bring up DRM preventing fair use as justification for why it is wrong. However, fair use is just the low hanging fruit. DRM takes away far more user rights, consumer rights, ownership rights that are far more obscure and probably not as accessible to anybody but students of philosophy of law.

      To enumereate a few:

      -The right to resell, to gift, and to inherit.
      -The right to disseminate and modify.
      -The right to destroy.
      -The right to use for purposes other than intended.

      These are all property rights, not copy rights. Property rights are inherent to any good, and secured by the 4th and the 14th amendments. Copy rights don't exist for anyone other than the creator to begin with, but can be granted to others at the discretion of the creator. See how they are completely unrelated?

      The fact of the matter is, DRM creates a paradigm wherein the user is no longer an owner, but a licensor. And that is a very dangerous slippery slope that was started by software licenses (EULA). The idea that you don't own something you bought and paid for, that you are merely licensing it from the creator, implies that you have no property rights except what said creator grants you. And that, I would argue, is a form of slavery.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    130. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by multisync · · Score: 1

      Sure. I probably didn't read what you wrote originally closely enough.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    131. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Congratulations - now, how many commercial authors of best sellers (or even good sellers) do the same? Practically none - they are the authors who more than likely will not be authoring works if there was no recompense.

      And you also overlook works of production - TV shows, movies et al. Large amount of investment precisely because there is a commercial value in doing so - wheres the enticement to create those works when the commercial value no longer exists?

      As I said originally - the vast majority of works traded on TPB, and enjoyed by users of TPB, are commercial works that would have no commercial value in a world without copyright law.

    132. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference is that you didn't purchase that ebook/song/program--your purchased a license to use it as the owner sees fit, but they remain the owner.

      By contrast, Kellogg's actually sells you the Rice Krispies. Once you pay the money, you own the box and all of its contents.

      I'm sure that in the future, Kellogg's will only be selling you a license to consume the Rice Kripsies, subject to the condition that you consume them and completely excrete the remains within 90 days of purchase. But until then, you can make Rice Krispie squares to your heart's content.

      Unless they patent the Rice Krispie squares-making process, of course....

    133. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by multisync · · Score: 1

      The difference is that you didn't purchase that ebook/song/program--your purchased a license to use it as the owner sees fit, but they remain the owner.

      Actually, I purchased a DVD, or a CD, which is a physical object that contains information. I don't own the information the object contains, which is the reason I can not distribute it, but I did not purchase - or agree to the terms of - a license. A lot of people seem to have bought in to the idea that the person who sold me the physical object is entitled to control how I use that object after it becomes my property, but that is simply not the case.

      I will do as I please with that object, because it is my property. I am prohibited from copying the information contained on that object for the purpose of distributing it to others, since I don't own the information. But the CD/DVD/whatever is my property - much like the box of Rice Krispies - and I will do with it as I please.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    134. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The movie industry (and I assume the same is true for the record industry and the ebook industry, but I don't actually know that) would love to allow DVD playback on linux. Forcing you to use Windows just gives more money and power to Microsoft, who can use it to bully the studios into doing things Microsoft's way. Not to mention that not allowing linux means a small fraction of a percent in lost DVD sales.

      The problem is that, even more than they want you to be able to play DVDs in linux, they want to stop you from ripping DVDs and putting them on the torrent networks, or buying a DVD from their Japanese sublicensee and playing it in the US (because they make less money that way), or making and distributing your own "Phantom Edit" movie remix.

      And these are things that, according to copyright law, they're allowed to prevent. From their point of view, it's unfortunate that the only ways they have to prevent these things also serve to prevent you from playing DVDs on linux.

      If someone found a way to open up DRM'd media so that it can be played on linux without opening it up to piracy, they'd not only accept it, but look for someone to give money to.

      The question is, are they allowed to restrict your legal use in an attempt to restrict illegal use, just because they can't find a way around it?

      You can come up with analogies in both directions. But given that Congress passed the DMCA, and the Courts have upheld major parts of it, I think the answer is yes. (I would rather that weren't true, but until Obama puts me on the Supreme Court, that doesn't matter.)

    135. Re:Hey, why not just steal GPL code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, you're free as a consumer to say "that's horse-shit" and go purchase someone else's content. Except when every one of their competitors has gotten together and agreed to use the same DRM. How is that not a cartel in collusion against the public?

  3. Not really a new Sklyarov by muffen · · Score: 4, Informative

    The tools are not on the site anymore...

    But now what you're really here for - the PDF decryption tool: REMOVED. (And if you don't already have it, the key-retrieval tool: REMOVED.)
    Edit: Links to tools removed due to DMCA complaint from Adobe.

    This is not the next Dmitri, if anything, it may turn in to the new DeCSS as Adobe is trying to stop the tool(s) from spreading, which tends to have the opposite effect.
    I really wonder if it hadn't been better for Adobe not to say anything, now they are giving it publicity it wouldn't have had otherwise.

    1. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov by Joce640k · · Score: 2, Informative

      Um, that'd be what the "streisendeffect" tag is for...

      --
      No sig today...
    2. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov by mysidia · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Since when was the definition of copyright infringement extended, so any tool that got passed ineffective access controls, could automatically be configured infringement?

      The DMCA takedown rules should require a work to actually be infringing...

      Perhaps they should start sending takedown notices to people finding and posting security exploits, that allow hackers to remotely execute code in their software.

      Because you know, it's cheaper to silence people who have found flaws in your software than to properly designing your software in the first place, or actually taking an effort to fix the bug.

    3. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov by Architect_sasyr · · Score: 1

      Isn't the key retrieval still linked in the earlier post (pastebin?) and the key decryptor?

      If not, there are are now two random python files on my desktop waiting for analysis.

      --
      Me failed English...
      FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
    4. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov by Dolohov · · Score: 4, Informative

      What do you expect them to do, wave a white flag and say "It's a fair cop, you got us"? They have a responsibility to their shareholders to do everything they can to protect a) their investment in creating the DRM in the first place, and b) the value of their licensed software and agreements with publishers.

      While I personally believe that Adobe would have been better-advised to have not bothered with this in the first place, DRM being particularly silly for text, they did. And because they did, saying nothing right now is not an option, or their shareholders could rightly accuse them of not being duly diligent. If the DeCSS/Streisand effect kicks in, well that's just part of the dance they started way back when.

    5. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, dunno if it is the most up-to-date version, but here are the two links you mentioned:
      ADEPT key retrieval prog

      Decrypt PDF prog

    6. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov by MBGMorden · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Since when was the definition of copyright infringement extended, so any tool that got passed ineffective access controls, could automatically be configured infringement?

      The DMCA takedown rules should require a work to actually be infringing...

      Nope - DMCA defines extra crimes involving copyrighted works, but the crimes defined needn't be copyright infringement themselves. Namely, any program that facilitates the disabling of any copy protection device violates the DMCA. Doesn't matter how it does it or the technical details. I don't think there's any question that this program was breaking the letter (and hell, the spirit) of the law when it comes to the DMCA.

      The problem is that the DMCA itself is a bad and unfair law. Bad and unfair laws result in bad and unfair application. You can either live with it, ignore it, or try to change it. Geeks don't have the lobbying power to change it, nor the will power to just live with it, so far the most part we just ignore that law, only complying as a token gesture as needed. I mean really - this guy has now complied with Adobe's takedown notice, but the code was released into the wild. At this point the cat is out of the bag.

      Though really - why don't we start posting these things on foreign servers to begin with? Put it up on The Pirate Bay or something for goodness sakes. DMCA takedown notices mean little in areas where the DMCA doesn't apply.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    7. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      If you check the Google Cache, it was updated properly and contains the link to the right pastebin sites.

    8. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov by russotto · · Score: 1

      The DMCA takedown rules should require a work to actually be infringing...

      They do. Takedowns of encryption tools are a misuse of DMCA 512. But the rules encourage bogus takedowns, and it's not like someone who is flagrantly violating DMCA 1201 is going to write a DMCA 512 counternotice.

    9. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      Namely, any program that facilitates the disabling of any copy protection device violates the DMCA.

      Actually, there's a loophole that causes that to not always be quite true, although I don't know if it applies here or if it's been exploited yet.

      DMCA prohibits disabling copy protection without authorization. If a copyright holder says it's ok to bypass the access control, then it doesn't count as "circumvention."

      So far, all the high-profile DRM schemes have only been use by a small group of copyright holders who have united in denying authorization (e.g. MPAA members). Depending on how easy it is to apply Abode's ADEPT, that may not be possible. I don't know anything about ADEPT, but TFA's link to Adobe's page make it look like ADEPT is applied by a relatively cheap retail package. (Is that true?) If so -- if there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people using ADEPT -- then it wouldn't take a sizable fraction of many people granting permission to bypass ADEPT, to invalidate the premise that an ADEPT-removing tool has "no significant market" other than as circumvention tool.

      This, BTW, is one of the reasons that no DRM can ever become a standard and still have DMCA protection. Anything DRM system that has lots of different copyright holders using it, will eventually become legal to break. If the copyright holders authorize it, then you're not doing something "without authorization."

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    10. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov by value_added · · Score: 1

      And because they did, saying nothing right now is not an option, or their shareholders could rightly accuse them of not being duly diligent.

      Correct, but that reasoning is the root cause of most of the problems that get discussed to death on Slashdot, isn't it? You can't turn on the television or open a newspaper to learn how intellectual property represents a large part of our economy, and how protecting that property is vital to economic growth. I'd go so far as to say it's become a mantra that's repeated ad nauseum (and uncritically) by anyone who is a stakeholder, or wields any sort of power.

      Here's a randomly chosen quote from from Alan Greenspan:

      In recent decades, for example, the fraction of the total output of our economy that is essentially conceptual rather than physical has been rising. This trend has, of necessity, shifted the emphasis in asset valuation from physical property to intellectual property and to the legal rights inherent in intellectual property. Though the shift may appear glacial, its impact on legal and economic risk is beginning to be felt.

      The upshot of all this? For our elected legislators, like the management of Adobe, [doing] nothing right now is not an option, or [the voters] could rightly accuse them of not being duly diligent. Somebody shouts "There oughta be a law!" and behold, a new law gets passed.

      You can debate the merits of the legislation that gets enacted, of course, but there's no secret as to why we have an increasing emphasis on intellectual property laws, in general, and their enforcement, specifically. Seems to me the problem is where it usually is: in the mirror.

      Maybe we need a Slashdot lobby? ;-)

    11. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov by Dolohov · · Score: 1

      Frequently it does seem that companies and the government are following the old plan: "Something must be done. This random thing is something. Therefore it must be done!" When the idea of due diligence comes into play, frequently that "something" seems to be just enough to keep the legal wolves (who often do not actually understand the businesses involved) at bay.

      Some of the problem, it seems to me, stems from perception of international competition. How many times have we heard it said, "Sure, they can make thousands of cheap plastic widgets, but they're just copying, they don't have real creativity." That old slander can only be repeated so often before people decide that creativity is our *only* advantage, and must therefore be protected and sheltered and otherwise kept free from "harm", even if that means protecting it from being put to actual use.

    12. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov by Haley's+Comet · · Score: 1

      The data you seek in in python script form, and is still in a pastebin (linked from a forum) on the net somewhere... Yet again, google is our friend.

      --
      The Illuminati would kill me, but I'm not rich enough to take notice of.
    13. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov by Harik · · Score: 1

      Adobe didn't send the takedown notice, their IP lawyers did. Of course, you do realize that more sites to issue takedowns = more money for their lawyers, right? Think there might be a slight conflict of interest going on here?

    14. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      The DMCA takedown rules should require a work to actually be infringing...

      Actually, there are two important things to understand about the takedown rule:

      One, the DMCA doesn't actually say, if you receive a takedown request, you have to take down X infringing work. Rather, it says, if you're a service provider, and you receive a takedown notice, at which point you take down X infringing work, you are granted a safe harbor from liability for the infringement (with some other conditions attached).

      Two, the DMCA grants this safe harbor for material that actually infringes a copyright. A DRM circumvention tool appears not to count. Does this mean that the service provider is also granted a safe harbor if they take down a DRM circumvention tool? I don't know for certain (that's up to a judge), but the law isn't actually written to read that way.

      By sending a takedown notice anyway, it's likely that Adobe intends not to sue the service provider as long as the takedown request is fulfilled (their lack of culpability would likely make a victory difficult and damages small, anyway). A service provider would be well-advised, though, that when they're served a takedown notice for a circumvention tool, they should comply with it the same as with regular infringing material, since being notified that you're hosting such a tool may lead to a finding of culpability later if you do nothing about it.

    15. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Nope - DMCA defines extra crimes involving copyrighted works, but the crimes defined needn't be copyright infringement themselves.

      Yes, but it doesn't define a "takedown letter" process for those additional crimes. The takedown letter is for an "infringing work".

      And a possible defense against the allegation of crime may be substantial non-infringing use.

  4. This just calls for one thing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    09f9 1102 9d74 e35b d841 56c5 6356 88c0

  5. It's in google cache. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google cache.

  6. In case anyone wants to see the actual work... by midicase · · Score: 1

    Google's cache of the blog has a working link.

    1. Re:In case anyone wants to see the actual work... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
  7. Took down the links, not the content.. by XenoPhage · · Score: 5, Informative

    There is of course, Google Cache ...

    Or, you can just get it from pastebin:

    http://pastebin.com/f1cb3663c

    and

    http://pastebin.com/f26972321

    --
    XenoPhage
    Technological Musings
    1. Re:Took down the links, not the content.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you kind sir. Now I can read the 24$ Rogers book (Diffusion of Innovations... Classic) on Linux too. :)

    2. Re:Took down the links, not the content.. by skeeto · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Or on Freenet, where it is impossible for anyone to remove,

      CHK@Lxdd7kNnDxsKDbJvN954w8VVTkyeXriXBc~CZQi7yh0,CpQsd8KQkbzeRnfpY4tprGAlt2LYjIKtwVdDYXWY~nE,AAIC--8/ineptpdf.pyw

      CHK@0sthR-c3bxeDPtyRP4vLst4MKLAYunyPgL3DFgijAR4,GLU99yTKNtuIx9A54tvh20XisaAPwCcul58wTmTKjRE,AAIC--8/ineptkey.pyw

    3. Re:Took down the links, not the content.. by steelfood · · Score: 4, Funny

      In other news today, Adobe sues Google.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    4. Re:Took down the links, not the content.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ed2k://|file|Circumventing%20Adobe%20ADEPT%20DRM%20for%20EPUB%20PDF%20I%20love%20cabbages%20ineptpdf%20ineptepub%20ineptkey.rar|14754|D1839A65C050921160A64C660B276975|h=GLR262DHSBSOW4WHVV6ZFYYVIZKHJQEW|/

  8. Wait a minute.... by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    That DRM was broken close to 10 years ago or so by this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elcomsoft
    I dont think they changed the encryption, just the way they encrypted it. My guess is that
    the tools created by Dmitri and the rest still work today....I may be wrong.

  9. audible drm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who cares about Adobe's e-book drm? I want someone to break Audible's DRM!

  10. Any guesses by Threni · · Score: 1

    from TFA:

    > Any guesses as to why only the PDF decryption tool and not the EPUB tool?

    Probably because no-one's even heard of EPUB but practically everyone has heard of PDF files...

    1. Re:Any guesses by edwardd · · Score: 1

      Probably because no-one's even heard of EPUB but practically everyone has heard of PDF files...

      Flamebait. ePub is a standard that's adopted by several ebook readers, and is superior to PDF for those mediums. Do your homework next time.

    2. Re:Any guesses by Threni · · Score: 1

      learn to read. I did my research-pdfs are widely used and many completely computer non-literate people can tell you what they're for. several orders of magnitude fewer people have even heard of that other format. its technical merits are completely irrelevant to this discussion.

  11. Here is the link... by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 2, Informative

    >But now what youâ(TM)re really here for â" the PDF decryption tool: http://pastebin.com/f1cb3663c. (And >if you don't already have it, the key-retrieval tool: http://pastebin.com/f26972321.)

    From the original article without having the links broken by law.
    I wonder is /. will have to do the same now?
    You can always call it back from google cache...as I did.
    http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:aoDTe7wI6s4J:i-u2665-cabbages.blogspot.com/2009/02/circumventing-adobe-adept-drm-for-pdf.html+http://i-u2665-cabbages.blogspot.com/2009/02/circumventing-adobe-adept-drm-for-pdf.html&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca

    1. Re:Here is the link... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone got anything to test it with ?

    2. Re:Here is the link... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://blog.lurkmore.com/technology/python/adobes-adept-drm-removal-code/

    3. Re:Here is the link... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know we're all adept here on /., but watch out for the spurious period at the end of the second link.

  12. GPL vs. DRM: DRM goes against the copyright spirit by jonaskoelker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The thing is, the legal framework, the right of the copyright holder to issue a license, is the same for software with DRM as it is without.

    As I understand it, the purpose of copyright is to secure for creators a limited time monopoly on the rights necessary for selling the creation, in return for them eventually enriching the cultural (and, in the case of software, technological) commons.

    Some kinds of DRM prevent or obstruct use of the work in such a way that when the work enters the public domain, it doesn't enrich the commons in practice. It's like being given a car wreck that's in really bad shape: sure you can sell it as scrap metal, but it's worth so little that you're better off ignoring it.

    For this reason, I think one can argue that DRM (with certain properties) goes against the spirit and purpose of copyright law, and the argument doesn't apply to GPL'ed software.

  13. Doing him a favor? by Mathinker · · Score: 1

    Using the DMCA to censor him just inconveniences him a bit while he finds a way to post it from a country without such a law (or effective enforcement thereof). Isn't this less despicable than using the DCMA to charge him with the criminal act of providing tools to break access controls?

    I hope we don't have another replay of the Skylarov fiasco.

    Disclaimer: Don't take this comment as indicating that I think the DMCA is a good law.

  14. Analog hole doesn't work? by Mathinker · · Score: 1

    I would think that it would be trivial to just record the output of your speakers/mp3 player/etc., no? You could even record multiple times and develop sophisticated algorithms to remove the analog noise and improve resolution.

    And while we're at it, I'm fairly sure that someone could write software which would OCR the output of a camcorder recording the screen of Adobe's ebook reader application while the down arrow key was held down with a small weight or clamp. Doesn't matter how many updates they make to their software in this case.

    DRM is silly and insulting to the customer, especially in low-bandwidth cases like this.

    1. Re:Analog hole doesn't work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Recording the output is trivial, as you say. However, audiobooks can be 30 hours long and are broken up into 3, 4, even 5 pieces. The "analog-hole" approach is not practical under these circumstances.

    2. Re:Analog hole doesn't work? by domatic · · Score: 1

      It is if automated. The parent poster gave an outline of a eBook rip-o-matic that one could set in motion prior to going on vacation say.

    3. Re:Analog hole doesn't work? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      I remember the days of high speed dubbing... Mine was 4x one. Sounded bloody funny.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
  15. Must be nice to be COMMIE with all that free time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How does one other than COMMIE find time to waste like that?

    Get job. Get girlfriend. Get boyfriend!

  16. The opposite effect, twice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First, a take-down is a sure way to have this kind of thing spread far and wide. Thanks to this article I have the code now. Better, in about half an hour I'll understand the crack.

    Second, there is some DRM-encumbered PDF content that I was thinking of buying, but have not because it was protected. I'm seriously considering buying it now, removing the protection, and (a) using it on a device that it would not otherwise have worked on, and (b) backing up the content, so I'll still be able to use it decades hence.

  17. Mirrors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One German mirror and one extra American mirror

    PDF decryption tool: http://pastebin.com/f1cb3663c
    http://nopaste.info/8ad6b71874.html
    http://paste2.org/p/161270

    key-retrieval tool: http://pastebin.com/f26972321
    http://nopaste.info/8b62e63436.html
    http://paste2.org/p/161271

    If you know of any other foreign pastebins,
    mirror and post in this thread.

  18. Fiduciary duty: includes a healthy business model by jonaskoelker · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They have a responsibility to their shareholders to do everything they can to protect a) their investment in creating the DRM in the first place, and b) the value of their licensed software and agreements with publishers.

    Well, they have a responsibility to their shareholders to deliver a good return on investment.

    You can try doing that in multiple ways. One of them is fighting a losing battle tooth and nail, another is coming up with a business model that works well in the environment it'll execute in.

    I'm not saying Adobe is at one extreme and should move to the other. But you have to wonder whether fighting the DRM war is ultimately good or bad for business. If it's bad, not fighting it is their shareholder responsibility.

  19. What you're saying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    What these "rights holders" are saying is this:

    1) We like copyright.
    2) Mostly
    3) What we don't like about copyright is the following:
          a) You can sell it to someone else. We really don't like that.
          b) You can use it in the way that you want, and I can't control it
          c) You can use it forever. I really don't like that
    4) So I like copyright, but I want it to be constraining than copyright
    5) So I'll lock it in DRM and then you can't actually do those things in #3 above that I really dislike
    6) And then as a rights holder, I get to control how you use the work.
    7) Which copyright doesn't really allow

    I mean, I *get* why people want to ignore #3. It's just that the law is not on their side. So they created technical hurdles to fair use and doctrine of first sale. And then they claim a copyright violation (much as you're doing) to justify the taking of rights.

    That's the argument in a nutshell.

  20. Re:Fiduciary duty: includes a healthy business mod by Dolohov · · Score: 1

    Like I said, I don't think they should have gone down this path in the first place. PDFs were not a prime candidate for working DRM in the first place. But if they simply abandon it, then they open themselves up to lawsuits from the publishers who had been using the DRM and would be left high and dry. The harder a fight Adobe puts up now, the less they stand to lose in court. And since I strongly suspect that the people handling the cease-and-desist stuff are staff lawyers who get paid either way, I doubt it costs them anything extra to fight tools like this at this stage.

  21. Uhhh by CaptainZapp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Copyrights are like patents in software/hardware. They prevent you from improving upon a certain work and they effectively lock the competition

    Actually that's completely upside down.

    Patents, in theory, are a deal between an inventor and society. For a limited, government enforced monopoly the inventor must document and register his invention with the patent office. Others can look at those patents and build upon them as long they either license the patent, wait until it's expired or build upon it in a way that the patent is not violated.

    Now, this is the theory of course which doesn't seem to be very much related to nowadays reality.

    However, patents where certainly not invented to hinder innovation, actually - due its documentation requirements - quite the opposite.

    --
    ich bin der musikant

    mit taschenrechner in der hand

    kraftwerk

    1. Re:Uhhh by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Copyrights, in theory, are a deal between an artist and society. For a limited, government enforced monopoly the artist must document and register his work with the copyright office. Others can look at those works and build upon them as long they either buy out the copyright, wait until it's expired or build upon it in a way that the copyright is not violated.

      However, patents and copyright where certainly not invented to hinder innovation or the arts, actually quite the opposite.

      Now, this is the SPIRIT OF THE LAW (similar to how the constitution seems to be treated more as a philosophy rather than a basis of law) of course which doesn't seem to be very much related to new and nowadays LAWS (DMCA...)

      There you go, fixed that for ya.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  22. DMCA Takedown illegal? by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1

    Unless he stole Adobe code, the DMCA takedown notice was probably illegal. Giving people the right to read what they bought is not a violation of copyright that DMCA takedowns are meant to refer to..

    --
    Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    1. Re:DMCA Takedown illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The assumption is that the takedown notice is from Adobe. Maybe it came from PDFMiner. I love cabbages included PDFMiner code in the PDF decryptor without including its copyright notice.

    2. Re:DMCA Takedown illegal? by Coopjust · · Score: 3, Informative

      Legally murky, as software with little or no purpose other than circumventing copy protection, software which is marketed for circumventing copy protection, or primarily designed to break protection would be a violation of US Code Section 1201, which would leave the service provider open for secondary infringement. So while the DMCA may not be the "right" way to ask, once the copyright holder has knowledge of a tool as described above, they could be legally liable if they don't remove it.

      As far as the legal ramifications of (possibly) abusing the "safe harbor provision", I'm not sure.

      Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, this does not constitute legal advice, etc.

    3. Re:DMCA Takedown illegal? by v1 · · Score: 1

      Unless he stole Adobe code, the DMCA takedown notice was probably illegal.

      The notice is not illegal. I can tell anyone that I think someone is violating my IP. Groundless? definitely. But not illegal. It's a scare tactic with some teeth. Basically, unless you are very sure it's groundless, it's in your best interest to take down. Only people with roomfulls of lawyers are likely to file a counterclaim which is their right.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    4. Re:DMCA Takedown illegal? by Follis · · Score: 1

      Except that the take down notice is under penalty of perjury. Which _is_ illegal.

    5. Re:DMCA Takedown illegal? by v1 · · Score: 1

      Except that the take down notice is under penalty of perjury.

      The problem with the notices is they use weasel words that can basically say "we think you are infringing on our IP". It's hard to get you for perjury when stating your opinion or your interpretation of the law.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    6. Re:DMCA Takedown illegal? by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1

      DMCA takedown notices have rather specific requirements. If they don't meet those requirements then they are, in fact, illegal.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    7. Re:DMCA Takedown illegal? by russotto · · Score: 1

      Legally murky, as software with little or no purpose other than circumventing copy protection, software which is marketed for circumventing copy protection, or primarily designed to break protection would be a violation of US Code Section 1201, which would leave the service provider open for secondary infringement.

      (IANAL, but..)
      Violation of 17 USC 1201(b) isn't copyright infringement (which is defined by 17 USC 501), so the takedown provisions of 17 USC 512 don't apply to it. I don't think there's any case law on secondary violation of 17 USC 1201(b), but with a reading as broad as that in MPAA v. 2600, a provider could be held liable for _direct_ violation for merely hosting a link.

  23. Re:GPL vs. DRM: DRM goes against the copyright spi by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

    The thing is, the legal framework, the right of the copyright holder to issue a license, is the same for software with DRM as it is without.

    As I understand it, the purpose of copyright is to secure for creators a limited time monopoly on the rights necessary for selling the creation, in return for them eventually enriching the cultural (and, in the case of software, technological) commons.

    Some kinds of DRM prevent or obstruct use of the work in such a way that when the work enters the public domain, it doesn't enrich the commons in practice. It's like being given a car wreck that's in really bad shape: sure you can sell it as scrap metal, but it's worth so little that you're better off ignoring it.

    For this reason, I think one can argue that DRM (with certain properties) goes against the spirit and purpose of copyright law, and the argument doesn't apply to GPL'ed software.

    The problem with this argument is that its an assumed, implied agreement that the works will enrich the cultural commons - its not anything laid out in law as copyright law does not handle what happens to the work after copyright law ceases to apply.

    Or in other words, its not the copyright holders responsibility to ensure that you have access to the works after copyright expires - and indeed, neither should it be.

  24. Incorrect DMCA notice? by Jiro · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You could argue this violates the DMCA with respect to technological protection measures.

    But DMCA notices use a different part of the DMCA, which allows takedowns for actual copyright violations. IANAL, but I don't think that you can combine the two and use a DMCA notice to take down something that doesn't violate copyright but does violate the other part of the DMCA.

  25. Re:Not really a new Sklyarov - off topic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "They have a responsibility to their shareholders..." Dude, I'm not ragging on you at all... but haven't you guys heard this a whole helluva lot more these days? Corporatism = Fascism.

  26. re: DRM and the recording industry by King_TJ · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I completely agree with what you said, except as much as I dislike the recording industry and their tactics? I think their quest to find "unbreakable DRM" has more rationality behind it than you give them credit for.

    The problem in their scenario is, they count on making their money via a high volume of music sales. (So to use one of your analogies, it's as though their business is costume jewelry sales. No individual piece would seem to be worth spending much money to protect, from a customer's perspective. Yet from their point of view, anything less than "unbreakable DRM" is like leaving their entire inventory sitting out on a table where anyone can walk by and help themselves to as many free pieces as they'd like to take.) DRM that's easily defeated by some free utility or music player plug-in is about as useful to the music industry as taping those pieces of costume jewelery down to the table with scotch tape.....

    And really, that's why DRM is a hopeless endeavor. People implementing it WANT it to be like a safe, with thick walls that take hours to cut open, and a combination lock you'll stand no chance of randomly guessing the combination to. Yet it's not, because unlike a safe, once the first person goes through the effort to crack it open, they can transfer that ability to everyone else with VERY little effort. (Imagine a situation where magically, a cutting torch that cut through the wall of one safe could cut through ALL future safes instantly, after the effort was made on the first one. That's what DRM is like.)

  27. Re:GPL vs. DRM: DRM goes against the copyright spi by pegr · · Score: 1

    As a somewhat random aside, I believe that most software is not directly copyrightable, as it is a derivative work of the source code. If the source code isn't copyrighted, then how can the compiled source code be copyrightable?

    The source code can't be copyrighted, as doing so would require the publishing of the source, and that would reveal all kinds of secrets. Since the secrets are obfuscated in the compiled code, they are safe to publish (until they get reverse engineered, such as this example). But is compiled code copyrightable? I don;'t think so!

  28. Re:Must be nice to be COMMIE with all that free ti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Da comrade, we get good job for mother russia, make many bullets. Crush capitalist pigdogs under might of Sasha!

  29. Re:Must be nice to be COMMIE with all that free ti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Happy Stalin Day to you too.

  30. Mods on crack by Late+Adopter · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    As of right now, GP is 0 and parent is +5.

    Troll and Flamebait do not mean "we disagree with your argument". What exactly was it about the GP that was said in a trollish or flamebaiting manner other than mirroring, with only the briefest emphasis, a phrase that was part of the (highly modded!) comment he replied to?

    Parent wasn't all that insightful either. GP's argument would hold for physical goods just as much as copyable goods. Copyright isn't involved.

    We really need to stop abusing the moderation system as a way to suppress dissent.

  31. So they do what they always do, cover up and deny by interval1066 · · Score: 1

    As the agents of adobe state in i love's blog "that content in your blog...allegedly infringes upon the copyrights of others." Of course, its what's missing that is most interesting in the take-down notice; acknowledgment of the vulnerability, as though forcing i love... to remove the post makes the problem go away. When will they learn?

    --
    Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
  32. More importantly by Narishma · · Score: 1

    Does he/she really love cabbages?

    --
    Mada mada dane.
  33. Code mirrored already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Found it via a simple Google search for 'ADEPT PDF decryption'...

    http://pastebin.com/f26972321
    http://pastebin.com/f1cb3663c

  34. blame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Get mad at the author for caving and making it easier for the next author to justify caving. Adobe is not to blame.

  35. No... by tjstork · · Score: 0, Troll

    That's a distortion and a half. I cannot copy a song on iTunes, and I redistribute GPL code, unless I comply with either license. It's really simple actually. If you can invent for yourself a new kind of right that lets you make and distribute unlimited copies of a song, then certainly someone else can invent for themselves the right to redistribute GPL code in proprietary products. Either you agree that the copyright holder has a right to control distribution, that is, you believe in copyrights, or you don't.

    It's really very simple, and what you are offering, instead, is that people must comply with YOUR copyrights, that is, the GPL, but you don't have to comply with THEIRS.

    That's bullshit.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:No... by multisync · · Score: 1

      That's a distortion and a half. I cannot copy a song on iTunes, and I redistribute GPL code, unless I comply with either license.

      That sentence doesn't make a lot of sense, but I think you are saying that only the copyright holder may distribute the copyrighted material. That is correct, and no additional license is needed.

      We are talking about DRM, which attempts to control how the person who purchased the copyrighted material may use it, which copyright law does not allow for. This control in many cases prevents uses that are guaranteed under copyright law, which means that it actually violates copyright law in some cases.

      If you can invent for yourself a new kind of right that lets you make and distribute unlimited copies of a song, then certainly someone else can invent for themselves the right to redistribute GPL code in proprietary products.

      Excuse me, what? Who has a right to make and distribute unlimited copies of a song? The copyright holder. Pretty straight forward. If the copyright holder so chooses, (s)he may extend further rights to distribute the song by granting a license. The copyright holder is well within their rights to do this.

      Either you agree that the copyright holder has a right to control distribution, that is, you believe in copyrights, or you don't.

      Of course the copyright holder has the right to control distribution. That's what copyright law is. But we are talking about DRM, which controls use, not distribution.

      It's really very simple, and what you are offering, instead, is that people must comply with YOUR copyrights, that is, the GPL, but you don't have to comply with THEIRS.

      You have leaped from a discussion about DRM's incompatibility with copyright to a rant defending copyright itself. Have a coffee, re-read the comments about then get back to us.

      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    2. Re:No... by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Yes you must comply with both the copyrights on the GPL and the copyrights on music. They are exactly the same.

      The music one is simpler: you cannot redistribute the music to anybody.

      The GPL grants you the ability to redistribute, if you follow some rules Don't like the GPL's rules? Well then don't redistribute. The result is identical to the music case, you cannot redistribute at all!

      I think the complaint is more about DRM. GPL proponents are not forcing computer systems to somehow enforce the GPL. I guess they could force designing the system so you cannot copy the binary somewhere without also copying the source, which you could imagine would be very detrimental to the usability of a computer as caching and encryption and code signing and an awful lot of other things would be impossible or at least very slow, and thus would make binaries where hackers have defeated the GPL attachement (maybe by fooling it into using hello_world.c as the source) more valuable and everybody would use that instead, thus actually defeating the entire purpose of the GPL.

      That is what DRM is doing, it is attempting to enforce copyright through technical means, along with annoying side effects that is encouaging everybody to break it.

    3. Re:No... by tjstork · · Score: 1

      hat is what DRM is doing, it is attempting to enforce copyright through technical means, along with annoying side effects that is encouaging everybody to break it.

      Well that argument is fine... but I think there is a double standard within some programming circles that expects people to live to the letter of the GPL while at the same time they steal artists work. All I'm saying is, give Bob Dylan his $1 for a song on iTunes, and don't violate the GPL, OR, screw Bob Dylan out of his $1, and accept that GPL software is essentially public domain. It's either or.

      --
      This is my sig.
    4. Re:No... by spitzak · · Score: 1

      I'm quite certain the GPL is violated all the time. People install GPL software on other's computers and don't bother giving them the source code or providing enough information that the source code can be located. They modify the software (generally small tweaks) and install it and don't give the source code, so it is impossible to recover. They post tweaked versions on the internet for anybody to download and don't include the source, or include incorrect and useless source. Plenty of router manufacturers probably put incorrect or outdated source code on their web sites. And the number of manufacturers caught is probably dwarfed by 10:1 by the number who are violating the GPL, some of them knowingly. Technically the GPL is violated millions of times per second in the use of computers, networks, and bittorrent as binaries are copied without including the source code.

      The only cases where the GPL has been enforced is when people sold the resulting product for money. I think everybody can agree that a record company can and should go after an individual selling copies for money, especially if that individual claims they performed the music themselves or otherwise have rights to it. That is similar to the cases where people are upset about GPL violations.

      There is a HUGE gap between the cases where people are upset about GPL violations and the record companies are upset. I tried to give an equivalent of what the record companies are doing: if a government mandate that all computer systems be designed so it is impossible to copy a binary without copying the source code was used to enforce the GPL, then maybe there would be some equivalence. I hope you can see how silly that is, or how scary it would be if it was true (and also I tried to explain why that would actually *hurt* GPL). But the difference between DRM and GPL is so vast that it is totally silly to try to compare them.

  36. Not broken... by stewbacca · · Score: 1

    Reverse-engineered does not mean broken. The guy broke it by reverse engineering it. DRM is broken enough already to need sensationalist summaries like this one.

  37. You show why DRM does "work" by Mathinker · · Score: 1

    Recording the output is trivial, as you say. However, audiobooks can be 30 hours long and are broken up into 3, 4, even 5 pieces. The "analog-hole" approach is not practical under these circumstances.

    I assume that they're broken up so that the maximum length of each piece isn't cumbersome; your reply indicates that the pieces are usually less than 6 hours long; most people sleep at least 5 hours/night which would only mean 1 hour of computer deprivation assuming only one computer in the house to do this.

    But to get to the real point: your reply shows why DRM actually does work, even if it is breakable. It just has to make breaking it enough work that enough people are willing to pay for the luxury of not having to break it (i.e., buy multiple copies of the same content). Of course, the downside is that it will sometimes scare away other customers, like me. But as long as people like me are in the minority, companies will continue to try to use DRM to pad revenues.

  38. Serves them right! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All of these companies who develop corporate American malware (a.k.a. DRM) are worse than terrorists. They are working to eliminate consumer rights and they want to chain users to the products of their brethren. Because of corporate American malware, I can only read e-books on Windows. Because of corporate American malware, I can only listen to purchased Itunes music on Windows or Mac.

    The cabbage guys who cracked the corporate American malware are heroes in my opinion.

  39. On the content being infinitely valuable... by maillemaker · · Score: 1

    >What the recording industry provides is not infinitely valuable, so DRM needn't be infinitely strong.

    While it is true that the content is not infinitely valuable, the cost of having your DRM broken means the content becomes infinitely INvaluable. So DRM needs to be very strong because once it's broken, your product is worthless. As in, no one will be willing to pay money for it.

    --
    A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
    1. Re:On the content being infinitely valuable... by compro01 · · Score: 1

      While it is true that the content is not infinitely valuable, the cost of having your DRM broken means the content becomes infinitely INvaluable. So DRM needs to be very strong because once it's broken, your product is worthless. As in, no one will be willing to pay money for it.

      Because no one buys DVDs now that CSS is trivial to bypass.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
  40. Making money is not a right... by maillemaker · · Score: 1

    >Without copyright, people might not make money out of it. But nobody says
    >people are supposed to make money for everything they do. Making money is not a right.

    Making money may not be a right, but it is one hell of a motivator. Perhaps the greatest motivator ever devised. Take away the motivation, and you will have a lot less of it.

    --
    A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
  41. There's a hole in the DMCA, dear Liza, dear Liza.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As I recall it, the DMCA forbids circumventing an "effective technical measure" that restricts access to copyrighted material. Now, while I personally can't be bothered to crack anyone's DRM, I DO see an interesting hole in the DMCA here: Specifically, it only protects "effective" technical measures.

    What defines the meaning of "effective" as used here? I strongly suspect that it HAS no well-defined meaning until tested in court. Moreover, the question of effectiveness is NOT AT ALL STRAIGHTFORWARD in legal terms. Consider a few examples:

    1) ROT13 encryption of a text document would stop 80% of Americans from reading it, mostly because they couldn't be bothered; the other 20% would waltz right through it without breaking stride. ROT13 is trivially solvable by a 5-year-old, so it's likely that no one can be bothered to publish tools to crack it. Is stopping 80% of Americans "effective" if a 5-year-old can break it?

    2) Most forms of DRM, such as CSS encoding of DVDs, can probably stop, say, 99% of Americans from breaking the DRM *on their own*. HOWEVER, the other 1% tend to publish their exploits on the Internet, and some folks even provide user-friendly toolsets for this, so that in effect, at least 50% of Americans can easily break the DRM using widely-available tools provided by the others. Is a DRM that ultimately stops only 50% of Americans "effective" when anyone who bothers to download the right tool can crack it?

    Now, it's obvious that CSS is a more secure algorithm per se than ROT13. ROT13 cannot conceivably be viewed as "effective" content protection, but (in my admittedly crude back-of-envelope analysis) it stops more folks than CSS, which IS considered "effective" content protection.

    In the presence of a global Internet, neither of the two methods can stop the majority of Americans from getting at the content behind them; thus, the primary barrier to access is the user's indifference. Does this not imply that there is no such thing as an "effective technical measure" once anyone has broken it and published a cracking tool (even if that tool is illegal)?

    Alternatively, the circumvention provision of the DMCA must be critically dependent on a rather tortured and artificial reading of the term "effective." Moreover, it's clear that technological progress can render DRM schemes ineffective, which is obviously a one-way street.

    Methinks a good attorney could drive a truckload of decrypted DVDs through this provision.

  42. By Neruos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    DRM is failed. DRM will never work. We don't need anymore analogies. DRM is flawed because of the core principle of '
    memory'. DRM is a function that tries to prevent the use of memory when the object containing DRM depends on 'memory'.

    "Remove the 'memory' aspect of the product and it is secured by DRM 100%, but remove the 'memory' aspect of the product renders the product 100% useless." - By Neruos

  43. only lasts so long by v1 · · Score: 1

    But now what youâ(TM)re really here for â" the PDF decryption tool: REMOVED. (And if you don't already have it, the key-retrieval tool: REMOVED.) ...

    Edit: Links to tools removed due to DMCA complaint from Adobe.

    and then the cache updated... Owell. I found copies elsewhere but they're source (python files) Would be nice if someone could post a binary or other readymade app for the novices

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    1. Re:only lasts so long by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      they're source (python files) Would be nice if someone could post a binary or other readymade app for the novices
       
      Python is an interpreted language, not a compiled language. There is no "binary", as such. You need to install a Python interpreter and run the script through that.

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    2. Re:only lasts so long by v1 · · Score: 1

      that is correct, and someone needs to read the python source and write it up again in a different language that can give us binaries, like c.

      Or is there a compiler available for python that can create executables for mac and windows? that would make matters so much simpler.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    3. Re:only lasts so long by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      That's a pretty terrible idea; I'm pretty pleased that the guy distributed the software as Python source and not as skeezy .exe files -- distributing the latter is just asking for virus propagation, since these files are by their nature going to get passed around by somewhat unconventional means, and normal safeguards against tampering, like posting an MD5 hash, aren't practical (since the original site may and probably will disappear).

      Plus, distributing it this way ensures that everyone with a copy of the decryptor has a copy of the source; if most people had binaries and only a very few had source, it would make it much easier for Adobe to go after the few source-code copies, change the DRM system slightly, and basically seal the breach. When most users only have compiled binaries and not source code, you're as vulnerable as closed-source software to being taken out by a targeted series of lawsuits or some other campaign of intimidation. (And in doing so you make those lawsuits or intimidation much more likely, since any fool can see that it might actually work. It's to the developer's benefit to disseminate the code and the ideas it contains as widely as possible; in doing so they make themselves less of a big, fat target.)

      Interpreted-only scripts are an ideal choice for this sort of thing. They're safe, they're basically self-documenting, they ensure source code dissemination, and frankly if push ever comes to shove, they give the developer a tiny bit more plausible deniability than he might otherwise have if he distributed binaries that were obviously meant to be a moron-friendly piracy tool.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  44. Wording of DCMA is worse than that. by pavon · · Score: 1

    Note that even laws like the DMCA talk about copy protection, rather than DRM.

    That's not entirely correct. While they refer to them as copyright protection devices, the actual definition of infringement in USC 17.12.01 is:

    No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

    So according to the law copyright protection devices control access to the work not just copying of the work. Another reason that it is a bad law.

  45. Info about Copyright as it applies to personal use by jcdill · · Score: 1

    Get it into your thick skull already; copyright cannot stop you from using what you bought the way you want it. It only stops you from copying what you bought and giving it to others.

    You are mistaken, and the above is incorrect.

    When you "buy" a song, a photo, or software, what you are really doing is purchasing a license to use a copy of the item. The license almost always has restrictions. You can NOT do "anything you want" with your copy. For instance:

    1) When you buy a song, you can't then play that song at your restaurant. This is a commercial airing of the song, and you have to pay royalties for this use. This is outside of the license you were granted for your personal use of the song. It doesn't matter how you purchased your copy - bought a CD or downloaded it from iTunes. Ditto for buying a DVD of a movie then showing the movie at your business.

    2) When someone takes a photo of you at an event (e.g. sporting event, graduation, office xmas party) and you buy a print or a jpeg, you can't give your copy (no "copying" taking place) to someone else to use for commercial purposes. The photographer still owns the copyright on the image, and your copy is for your personal enjoyment only and is not licensed for commercial use. (Such commercial use usually involves making additional copies and the "copying" becomes the issue, but even if no additional copies are made, the commercial use is outside the license granted with the personal purchase of the photo.)

    3) When you buy software, you can use it on one computer, and a backup computer. You can't install it on every computer in your home or office *unless* the seller explicitly gives you this right.

    You do have the "right of first purchase" to use your copy for personal use or to sell it to someone else (as is the case with a music CD or video DVD). But your rights are limited, even for your own personal use.

    Now, it is fair to argue that copyright laws have been extended (many times) in the past 100 years in ways that amount to a "taking" from the public domain, and that they are overdue for changes. As someone who benefits from copyright laws (I'm a photographer), I'm not in favor of their extended reach today, and back proposals to rein-in copyright. But until the laws are changed, this is the state of copyright law in the US today.

    You may also find these cites helpful:

    Copyright Myths

    Brief Intro to Copyright

    --
    "I'd much rather be mistaken as a lesbian by a bigot than be mistaken as a bigot by a lesbian."
  46. Re:GPL vs. DRM: DRM goes against the copyright spi by scientus · · Score: 1

    same with congress and the Micky mouse law

    How can extending the copyright term of content that was already created possibly enrich the public domain? No, it hampers it because it prevents people from humoring it and creating derivatives, but that doesn't keep the RIAA and MPAA, and as a result congress, from telling people it does enrich us.

  47. Hey guys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, why is Digital Editions at Adobe 404'd? In response to this? I wanted to get a book. :(

  48. GPL is a gift with your contributions as payment by Parallax48 · · Score: 1

    If you want to allow others to build on your work and force them to allow you to build on theirs you use GPL.

    Without a license like GPL, your customers are not allowed to build on your work and re-distribute.

    If you receive source someone else provided to you under GPL (i.e linux), the fact that you can modify and re-distribute it is a favor to you from them. If you then distribute changes, your contributions benifit everyone, especially the origional authors.

    GPL is best used for tools that are not your key products, i.e don't work on Apache if you make webserver software - only if you use it a lot.

    *I'm not a GPL expert, just a user*

  49. It's a thin distinction by tjstork · · Score: 1

    but we are talking about DRM, which controls use, not distribution.

    Well that's the point, isn't it. As a practical matter, the only use DRM really seeks to prohibit is duplication and perhaps alteration and duplication, and these two items are in fact the very same items that the GPL addresses through licensing.

    You have leaped from a discussion about DRM's incompatibility with copyright to a rant defending copyright itself. Have a coffee, re-read the comments about then get back to us.

    I have read the comments and I think the argument that says there is a distinction between DRM and the GPL is disingenuous. As I've said, your argument of "use" glosses over the simple fact that the most reasonable "use" of hacking DRM is, in fact, to distribute DRM'd works, thus violating the right of the copyright holder.

    If you want to be against intellectual property, and say that there's no copyrights, that's fine, but be consistent, and accept that the open source movement is essentially public domain, and tolerate the commercialization of Linux just as much as you would expect the creator of a song, say, Metallica, to tolerate your copying of their works.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:It's a thin distinction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well that's the point, isn't it.

      Correct. The problem with DRM is that it attempts to restrict use. Lawful use.

      As a practical matter, the only use DRM really seeks to prohibit is duplication and perhaps alteration and duplication, and these two items are in fact the very same items that the GPL addresses through licensing.

      Incorrect. DRM attempts to restrict far more activities than just those. Thus your comparison with the GPL fails.

      I have read the comments and I think the argument that says there is a distinction between DRM and the GPL is disingenuous.

      There is a very, very real distinction. In fact, it's huge, as well as clearly defined in law. I wouldn't go so far as to say that you are stupid, but you definitely appear to have a lot of thinking and reading left to do in these matters.

      As I've said, your argument of "use" glosses over the simple fact that the most reasonable "use" of hacking DRM is, in fact, to distribute DRM'd works, thus violating the right of the copyright holder.

      And as I as well as countless others have said, your view is incorrect in several ways. To begin with, DRM has nothing to do with copyright. In fact, DRM should automatically invalidate any copyright to the material in question, by default, since DRM is conceptually (probably legally, as well) incompatible with copyright law.

      If you want to be against intellectual property, and say that there's no copyrights, that's fine, but be consistent, and accept that the open source movement is essentially public domain, and tolerate the commercialization of Linux just as much as you would expect the creator of a song, say, Metallica, to tolerate your copying of their works.

      That entire sentence is based on your previous flawed reasoning. DRM has nothing to do with copyright. I (and others) can very well respect copyright while at the same time having nothing but contempt for DRM and be utterly and completely consistent, both ethically and judicially.

      You really, really do need to read and think a lot more about these things.

      At the moment, you appear ignorant, at best.

  50. Adobe better know as Sueyou by akayani · · Score: 1

    Now there is a pack of pricks that should be laid on a water bed full of petrol with free cigarettes... They own MM because MM couldn't afford any more time in court. Why that wasn't stopped as being a monopoly is amazing. They invent a plugin format for image editors and once everyone is using it the encrypt the format so it only works with their products. If ever there was software that should be cracked it's theirs!

  51. Re:Info about Copyright as it applies to personal by Homburg · · Score: 1

    When you "buy" a song, a photo, or software, what you are really doing is purchasing a license to use a copy of the item.

    No. When you acquire a copyrighted work, there's no license involved, and you can do anything you want with it, except for those things that are specifically restricted by copyright law. Your own source, the "Brief Intro to Copyright," says: "If you create something, and it fits the definition of a creative work, you get to control who can make copies of it and how they make copies." As the source says, the issue here is copying (and also public display), not mere use.

    Your first example is of public display or performance, something specifically restricted by copyright.

    Your second example is incorrect - if I own a copy of a photograph and I can make some commercial use of it without copying or publically distributing it, I don't need the permission of the copyright holder to do so (I can't think offhand of a way you could use an image commercially that didn't involve copying or publically displaying it; but if there are any such ways, they are permitted by copyright law).

    Your third example is contentious. Software companies claim that using a program involves copying it, and so using it requires a license. But even if that's true, the license is only required because you are copying the software.

  52. Re:GPL vs. DRM: DRM goes against the copyright spi by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

    its not anything laid out in law as copyright law does not handle what happens to the work after copyright law ceases to apply.

    Uuuuhhmmm.... It will fall out of copyright, thereby enriching the cultural commons? There's not really much else it can do, unless it hasn't been distributed at all.

    Or in other words, its not the copyright holders responsibility to ensure that you have access to the works after copyright expires - and indeed, neither should it be.

    No, it shouldn't. But I should be able to undertake the effort to make that legal copy after the copyright expires, if I so choose.

    DRM prevents this, or at least makes it a significant burden for most people.

    --
    "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
  53. Re:NO. NOT NOW. NOT EVER. I'M COMING FOR ALL OF YO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not stealing!

    It's COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT, you FUCK!!

  54. Exactly so. by maillemaker · · Score: 1

    >Because no one buys DVDs now that CSS is trivial to bypass.

    I know I don't.

    --
    A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.